S01.E14: I Call Marriage

[Guest]

23 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

and that it's wise to tread lightly, consent-wise, around the drunk, weak and vulnerable. 

I see your point given this camp could be considered therapeutic but I think it's also wise to tread lightly around labeling a woman weak and vulnerable.  I don't see Kate as weak and vulnerable at all.  She seems about as vulnerable as any woman at any gym.   

I didn't understand the Miguel hate, either.  I don't think either Shelly or Miguel deserves hate.  

[Lady Calypso]

Well, I've been one of the avid haters of Miguel, but this is definitely the first episode where I didn't (quite possibly irrationally) hate him. I thought his moments in this episode were sensible and made sense. Sometimes, marriage just ends. It's sometimes nobody's fault, and I was relieved when it turned out that he didn't cheat; he just happens to be a flirt, intentional or not. That's ok. 

I'll be honest; most of my dislike for Miguel stems from not knowing the circumstances of him and Rebecca, as well as saying some pretty questionable things in every episode he's been in (except for this one). But now we have Horse Dick, so Miguel looks like a gentleman compared to that guy, so I'm warming up to Miguel slowly but surely. 

[sasha206]

5 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

I expect it's mostly someone replacing the Perfect Dad Husband Hero figure that is our Jack.

I think so too.

And I think people take that scene, in which perfect Jack who thinks you should be married FOREVER damn it is actually bitching to his friend about his impossible wife, as proof he was lusting for his best friend's wife and pulled a fast one on him post death.

Why couldn't it be that two people, mourning the loss of their best companion, end up finding themselves lonely and finding love years later.  It does happen. And it doesn't mean these two were lusting after each other when Jack was alive.

And just because the kids don't receive him with open arms doesn't mean he's a dick either.  There are a lot of kids, heck, grown adults, who find the thought of their mom marrying ANYONE else to be a tough pill to swallow.  Miguel wanting to take part in a family tradition isn't some awful thing either.  He's trying to find acceptance and trying to bond with his grandchildren.

What's interesting to me is the way that scene played out earlier, Jack is the one who seems like he's on the precipice of an affair to me.  In that episode, he wasn't perfect Jack.  He apparently drank a lot.  And he wasn't finding Rebecca to be the perfect soulmate either.    He seemed like the guy who needed a golf weekend with the boys -- you know, the ones he found so objectionable in the "Jack is perfect because his pregnant hormonal bitchy wife was mean to him and he STILL wants to freeze time!"  Miguel was the one who was trying to keep his friend on track.  If Miguel was truly lusting after Rebecca, surely he would've been happy as shit that his best buddy is starting to well, be human, when it comes to his relationship.  If he were such a bad guy, it seems like he would've said, "Yep, she's an impossible woman.  She's dragging you down, perfect man."

On 2/10/2017 at 11:06 PM, DebbieM4 said:

I think she's had doubts all along.  She's never seemed 100% onboard with this relationship, and I think she's always held him pretty much at arms' length (with just a very few exceptions).  I do agree that the ring may now give her the wake-up call she needs.  She's certainly not acting like a recently-engaged young woman who is in love with her fiance' and excited about a future together.

Agreed.

I'm hoping that this show all along is purposefully trying to show us that Kate just isn't that into Toby and the reasons he's with him is because her choices of men are limited because of her weight. 

But for Toby, it's hard for me to understand what this great love of Kate is about.  Is it because the writers have to make every woman who is complex be the woman that a man has this undying love for?  I'm not yet seeing what's lovable about Kate.  What makes someone decide to marry her when it's been a very short courtship? Particularly since he was already in a bad marriage.  Kate so far hasn't seemed to show a sense of humor.  She's a ball of insecurity and despair.  Is that great love of his because he wants to "fix" her?  

And wouldn't it be lovely if the writers actually gave Kate romantic interests who weren't pressuring her for sex in the most base ways?  I mean, Toby is worse than horse dick.  He's asked for "handies" and all kinds of lovely things.  I suppose they think it's hilarious.  But the skinny women on this show seem to get men who seem to be in love with the women, not wanting a quickie every 10 minutes.  Or are the writers thinking that us women are going to think it's so great that a morbidly obese woman is getting propositioned in the most sexual of ways?

Edited February 12, 2017 by sasha206

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

If Miguel was truly lusting after Rebecca, surely he would've been happy as shit that his best buddy is starting to well, be human, when it comes to his relationship.  If he were such a bad guy, it seems like he would've said, "Yep, she's an impossible woman.  She's dragging you down, perfect man."

In the article I linked to I found it funny that the interviewer asked if Miguel was eyeing Rebecca appreciatively at the wedding.  Fogelman laughed at how Miguel can't get a break and said that in his mind, Miguel held both Jack and Rebecca in very high esteem.  

[OtterMommy]

10 hours ago, breezy424 said:

But that did not happen and I think that is completely 'stretching' the situation.  JMHO.

I agree it hasn't happened (hence all the use of "if's").  As for stretching it--based on what I've seen of Duke, especially in this episode, I'm not sure I'm that far off base.  We've seen the way he is with Kate, we've seen the way he is with at least one other guest, and we've seen his rather bizarre-at least in my mind--reaction to Toby (all "Hey bro!" until he found out that Toby was engaged to Kate and then he was very hostile to him).  To me that smacks of both him being predatory and of him knowing *exactly* what he is doing.

ETA: I agree with @ShadowFacts sentiment above that this is starting to veer more into the "social issues" area.  If anyone wants to continue this discussion, perhaps it should move to that thread.

[Tiger]

On 2/10/2017 at 8:42 PM, Kira53 said:

Annalise, like many black women enjoy a variety of hairstyles, braids, wigs, weaves, and straightening so making those choices to vary her look for different times and eras is an easy choice.   Personally I don't like to see men wearing a wig. When AnnaLise wears a wig we know she's wearing a wig and that's not a problem because she's a woman who does like to wear wigs. We're not supposed to believe that the hair is growing out of Annalise's head. It's not supposed to be believable.  Jack wearing different wigs would be very strange. I think he does vary his long hair look somewhat depending on the year.

  Lots of men who favor facial hair favor it most of their life. The men I know that had mustaches rarely if ever shaved them off. Obamas guy that had the really big walrus mustache still looks strange to me without his facial hair.  Axelrod.   I'm not sure about the current hipsters that wear a lot of facial hair. I'm  not sure whether they will make it a lifelong look because they're doing it maybe because of the trend. 

Murder has used lighting, make-up, facial hair, wigs, and styling to show different ages in its other characters, including white males Frank, Sam, and Connor.  

Hell, in one episode which showed a flashback to just a few months earlier, they styled Jack Falahee's hair so that it didnt look as long as it does for the current time material.

[MaryPatShelby]

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I think so too.

And I think people take that scene, in which perfect Jack who thinks you should be married FOREVER damn it is actually bitching to his friend about his impossible wife, as proof he was lusting for his best friend's wife and pulled a fast one on him post death.

Why couldn't it be that two people, mourning the loss of their best companion, end up finding themselves lonely and finding love years later.  It does happen. And it doesn't mean these two were lusting after each other when Jack was alive.

And just because the kids don't receive him with open arms doesn't mean he's a dick either.

Exactly.  And, as I keep stressing, Rebecca invited him into their lives and married him.  Yet the kids only seem to hate Miguel for this, not Rebecca, as well as the commenters here.  Just confuses me, that's all.

[TomServo]

This is the second episode in a row where the writers gave Jack a line that referenced being dead (last week it was, "I'm dead.  Three parties killed me," and this week I noticed one but forgot to write it down).  It almost makes me want to go back and find out if he has a line like that in every episode.  I don't quite have that much time on my hands, so I probably won't bother.

[Cardie]

21 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I just realized that Jack must have died more than 12 years ago based on this episode.  Kevin's ex, who he has not talked to in 12 years, knew about his mom being remarried.  And his dislike for the stepdad as well. 

My speculation, based on the clues so far, is that the kids were no more than 16 when Jack died and that Miguel and Rebecca married between a year and three years after his death.

[mojito]

Quote

It really bugged me that Beth "called marriage" for a school chess tournament that they hardly knew about it. I can't see, in that situation, giving that ultimatum. Especially when he's been taking time away from work lately to be with William. Did he even mention that it was a client dinner and the whole thing with Sanjay? I can't imagine she wouldn't understand. 

Can't read all comments, but wanted to respond to this one, and others like it. I think Beth is trying to give the girls and Randall memories of their family together (with William), and that's why she was insistent that Randall be at the chess tournament. This event was even more special since William had been coaching his granddaughter. As well, Beth is probably trying to give William the warm fuzzies, too. 

As for Toby's hair....I knew a guy who had a hairline like that. Though most of us on the outside saw this pathetic lock of hair, my friend saw it as the only thing saving him from being bald.

That's all I got.

[DebbieM4]

12 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think you make excellent points, and I do more or less agree with your post, but to play devil's advocate maybe she's been exhausted and overwhelmed by the experience of dealing with Toby's illness and is in desperate need to recuperate and restore herself, and deal with her own issues. So the fun visit is not as much fun as it is an invasion. There are reasons when people are in rehab that they don't allow drop-in visits (so I've heard). What Kate's doing isn't technically rehab, but it is pretty close.

It did seem to me that she was pleased to see him until he expected her to drop everything to be with him. I'm one of the few who like Toby, but I was kind of on Kate's side in this particular case.

It seems to me that she often views Toby's arrival anywhere as an invasion.  

They're very newly-engaged, and should be in the glow-y, don't-want-to-be-apart stage of their romance.   She's rarely amused by him, and often seems not to trust that he won't say or do something inappropriate or embarrassing.  I don't blame her for that - I would feel the same way.  But I'm not the one who accepted his marriage proposal.

[Court]

I will freely admit my hate of Miguel is irrational. I'm OK with that. 

[Portia]

I hate Miguel because HE'S NOT MY DAD!!!

;-)

[Crs97]

Quote

But I'm not the one who accepted his marriage proposal.

Didn't she propose to him?  He deserves better than Kate, and I thought this before I saw her heading to Cabin 13.

[breezy424]

I don't 'hate' Miquel.  He just bothers me.  You don't intrude on traditions started by a children's 'dad'.  You just don't do that.  I have no idea of when Rebecca become involved and then married Miquel.  It doesn't matter when it comes to children's traditions that involved their father.  It crosses a line for me.  It's perfectly fine for the children, no matter what their age, to carry on the tradition.  But, nope, not the stepfather. 

[DebbieM4]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Didn't she propose to him?  He deserves better than Kate, and I thought this before I saw her heading to Cabin 13.

I don't remember clearly, but now that I think about it, you may be right.  My point, however was that she exercised free will in becoming engaged to him.  She shouldn't be acting as though she wants to keep him at arm's length.   All she seems to like about him is the attention that he gives her, and very often she's clearly uncomfortable with that.

I'm not a fan of Toby, but I think he would be happier with someone else.  Other than being overweight, he & Kate don't seem to have much in common, and she doesn't seem very enamored of his personality.  He'd be better off finding someone who gets at least as much a kick out of him as he does himself.

Edited February 13, 2017 by DebbieM4
corrected sentence that didn't make sense

[SlackerInc]

10 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I agree it hasn't happened (hence all the use of "if's").  As for stretching it--based on what I've seen of Duke, especially in this episode, I'm not sure I'm that far off base.  We've seen the way he is with Kate, we've seen the way he is with at least one other guest, and we've seen his rather bizarre-at least in my mind--reaction to Toby (all "Hey bro!" until he found out that Toby was engaged to Kate and then he was very hostile to him).  To me that smacks of both him being predatory and of him knowing *exactly* what he is doing.

ETA: I agree with @ShadowFacts sentiment above that this is starting to veer more into the "social issues" area.  If anyone wants to continue this discussion, perhaps it should move to that thread.

I think it makes sense in either place if it's mostly in regard to what he said to Kate and Toby in this episode.  If it's more of a general thing about Duke's personality, or more about what he did in prior episodes, then I agree with you.

[chocolatine]

I'm starting to think that Kate only accepted Toby's proposal because he'd just had a life-threatening emergency and she didn't want to crush his spirit any further. And maybe she was also hoping that if she accepted, Toby would no longer lay it on so thick now that he doesn't have to "chase" her, and she could re-focus on weight loss with less interference from him.

[talktoomuch]

I don't think the writers are making Kate + Duke a romance. I truly believe Duke is a plot device to have Kate see the issues in her relationship with Toby and recognize that she doesn't have to setttle because no one has ever been attracted to her before.

Seeing that there are other men who will find her sexy will allow Kate to choose herself, which she has been trying to do all along. She just second guesses that choice whenever Toby comes back around. And she has stated before that she never thought any man would feel that way about her.

[ShadowFacts]

53 minutes ago, talktoomuch said:

I don't think the writers are making Kate + Duke a romance. I truly believe Duke is a plot device to have Kate see the issues in her relationship with Toby and recognize that she doesn't have to setttle because no one has ever been attracted to her before.

Seeing that there are other men who will find her sexy will allow Kate to choose herself, which she has been trying to do all along. She just second guesses that choice whenever Toby comes back around. And she has stated before that she never thought any man would feel that way about her.

In my mind it's still an open question as to whether Kate will choose herself or choose to forge ahead with Toby (maybe more slowly, no rush to marriage), but I agree it is not romance they are going for with Duke.  Meaningless sex, hit-and-run, one-nighter, whatever, but not romance.  What I'm not sure about is why they chose to write Duke so much like an exaggerated Toby -- a much subtler, actually charming, non-pushy guy would have been a contrast that would have been more interesting to me.  Duke is just laughable. 

[Tikichick]

On 2/10/2017 at 8:17 PM, Dowel Jones said:

Any other time in his career, that would be correct.  However, he is shown being pressured more and more from outside the job, plus increasing pressure inside the workplace.  My point was that the dinner could have been the breaking point for him, with some consequences from his boss.  It may still happen.

I tend to go with the simplest explanation for the front door scenes.  In tvland, pretty much all interior doors look the same to the audience.  If he were shown going through a house to garage door, it might not be so obvious that he was leaving, despite a real life scenario.  An easily identifiable front door is a good plot device to show the audience that he is leaving the house.

As far as the front door quibbling, it may be as simple as budget reasons and using already created set pieces in a multitude of ways.

On 2/13/2017 at 6:47 AM, ShadowFacts said:

In my mind it's still an open question as to whether Kate will choose herself or choose to forge ahead with Toby (maybe more slowly, no rush to marriage), but I agree it is not romance they are going for with Duke.  Meaningless sex, hit-and-run, one-nighter, whatever, but not romance.  What I'm not sure about is why they chose to write Duke so much like an exaggerated Toby -- a much subtler, actually charming, non-pushy guy would have been a contrast that would have been more interesting to me.  Duke is just laughable. 

I don't think Duke is knee slappingly hilarious, but I do see comic potential there.  At least for those who will feel a smirk trail across their face if he winds up getting a swift kick to his special place.

[possibilities]

If they just wanted to show that other men are attracted to Kate, why did they choose a guy like Duke? Seriously-- there are other options. I'm a lesbian, and even I know that not all guys are either Toby or Duke. And I'm fat as hell, and I find it insulting to think that anyone would pose Duke as an appealing alternative or a way to raise Kate's self-esteem high enough to believe she has options.

[ClareWalks]

29 minutes ago, possibilities said:

If they just wanted to show that other men are attracted to Kate, why did they choose a guy like Duke? Seriously-- there are other options. I'm a lesbian, and even I know that not all guys are either Toby or Duke. And I'm fat as hell, and I find it insulting to think that anyone would pose Duke as an appealing alternative or a way to raise Kate's self-esteem high enough to believe she has options.

Yeah, having shithead opportunists trying to screw you is not a flattering thing for any woman, and it is insulting that the writers might actually be presenting this as "see, Kate, you're beautiful! Chin up!" Have any of them MET any human women before?!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

If they just wanted to show that other men are attracted to Kate, why did they choose a guy like Duke? Seriously-- there are other options. I'm a lesbian, and even I know that not all guys are either Toby or Duke. And I'm fat as hell, and I find it insulting to think that anyone would pose Duke as an appealing alternative or a way to raise Kate's self-esteem high enough to believe she has options.

If they'd written some nice guy, would there be any water cooler buzz, though?  They've already got nice guy Toby who wants to grow old with her.  

46 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Yeah, having shithead opportunists trying to screw you is not a flattering thing for any woman, and it is insulting that the writers might actually be presenting this as "see, Kate, you're beautiful! Chin up!" Have any of them MET any human women before?!

I think the episode was written by a woman.  

[albaniantv]

I'm giving Kate a pass for whatever she has in mind for Duke: verbal or sexual humiliation, taking inventory on his aggressions, punching him or even just having a one night stand with him. This is likely the first time ever she has two suitors pawing the ground to get her attention, coinciding with the loss of chocolate and similar crutches. 

[Tiger]

I'm going to laugh if Kate has a one-night-stand with Duke and the feminazi's on Twitter predictably start calling her names. 

As far as I'm concerned, if Kate does that, I'll say "go Kate!!!" 

[Crs97]

Quote

I'm going to laugh if Kate has a one-night-stand with Duke and the feminazi's on Twitter predictably start calling her names. 

I don't think I am a feminazi and I probably won't call her names, but I have a problem with anyone who is engaged or married deciding to sleep with someone else without first breaking off their relationship.

[Tiger]

47 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I don't think I am a feminazi and I probably won't call her names, but I have a problem with anyone who is engaged or married deciding to sleep with someone else without first breaking off their relationship.

Don't get me wrong, IRL I am 100% against cheating, dont think there is ever an excuse for it, have never done it, and wouldnt put up with it.

But this is a tv show and it's Toby she'd be cheating, so I hope Kate cheats away!

Also, I want to be clear I dont think all feminists do this.  But there is definitely an ugly subculture within the third wave of feminism that claims to be all about female empowerment and equality but then turns around and slutshames any female who goes out and "acts like a man" or viciously attacks any man who endorses a woman going out and playing the field, etc like men do.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Tiger

[SlackerInc]

I'm not against cheating.  I think monogamy is this really weird cultural idea that people get really huffy about and act as though it is a paramount value of civilization, but which is actually more "honored in the breach" in reality.

[luna1122]

I'm against cheating unless it's mutually decided to be okay within the confines of the relationship, in which case I guess it's not actually cheating. I AM against the term 'feminazi' cuz anything that bloated bloviating  Rush Limbaugh has to do with, and I believe he did coin the term, and pretty much paints all feminists with it, I want no part of.

I would think less of Kate if she cheats, even on Toby, because it would of course hurt him and it's dishonest and unkind. And for Duke? gross.

Happy Valentine's day!

[ShadowFacts]

13 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Yeah, having shithead opportunists trying to screw you is not a flattering thing for any woman, and it is insulting that the writers might actually be presenting this as "see, Kate, you're beautiful! Chin up!" Have any of them MET any human women before?!

I'm still keeping an open mind about the writing, until we see what Kate does in the next episode.  If she gives Duke the heave-ho, I'll be pleased of course, because at best that ass objectifies and disrespects her.  Since this character Kate is somewhat based on the showrunner's sister, it might go this way to show Kate in a more positive, strong light.  Then again, it could go the soap-y route with cheating and guilt.  Which would bore me to tears.  I feel like since they wrote Toby as unable to punch him out, Duke's not going to get a total pass for being a jackass, so I'm hopeful that is where the writing is going. 

[talktoomuch]

14 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

15 hours ago, possibilities said:

If they just wanted to show that other men are attracted to Kate, why did they choose a guy like Duke? Seriously-- there are other options. I'm a lesbian, and even I know that not all guys are either Toby or Duke. And I'm fat as hell, and I find it insulting to think that anyone would pose Duke as an appealing alternative or a way to raise Kate's self-esteem high enough to believe she has options.

Yeah, having shithead opportunists trying to screw you is not a flattering thing for any woman, and it is insulting that the writers might actually be presenting this as "see, Kate, you're beautiful! Chin up!" Have any of them MET any human women before?!

But if the purpose of the storyline is to show Kate gaining agency, it doesn't work to have her other suitor be a charming nice guy. That would basically turn Kate's storyline into Kevin's Olivia vs. Sloane. And ultimately be more about the choice between two men rather than emotional growth for Kate.

By making Duke a dick, Kate can gain the lesson - other men besides Toby do find her attractive so she doesn't have to settle - without necessarily taking the man who helped her get to the lesson. She could tell Duke off (or have a one night stand with him) and keep it moving while still having her eyes opened to her own autonomy.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I'm not against cheating.  I think monogamy is this really weird cultural idea that people get really huffy about and act as though it is a paramount value of civilization, but which is actually more "honored in the breach" in reality.

 

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

I'm against cheating unless it's mutually decided to be okay within the confines of the relationship, in which case I guess it's not actually cheating. I AM against the term 'feminazi' cuz anything that bloated bloviating  Rush Limbaugh has to do with, and I believe he did coin the term, and pretty much paints all feminists with it, I want no part of.

I would think less of Kate if she cheats, even on Toby, because it would of course hurt him and it's dishonest and unkind. And for Duke? gross.

Happy Valentine's day!

Monogamy (or its value to civilization) is beside the point, in my view. A relationship between people who love each other is based on an understanding (stated or implied) about whether or not the relationship is exclusive. When you violate the terms of that understanding, then you are betraying the other person. To me, it's how you impact the person you love, not an intellectual argument that the love or relationship is some societal construct.

I totally agree about the "feminazi" term. It's used to put down women who speak up for their rights and it bugs the crap out of me.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Clanstarling

[possibilities]

47 minutes ago, talktoomuch said:

But if the purpose of the storyline is to show Kate gaining agency, it doesn't work to have her other suitor be a charming nice guy.

I don't get that. They could show her realizing that she likes positive attention, more than she likes Toby himself, and as a result of that insight deciding to break off the engagement, without having it be a "choice between Toby and some other guy."

I don't really understand how making the guy obnoxious makes the story better, if that's what the story is.

We'll see soon enough where they are going with this, though, and then we can react to what they do vs what we wonder if they might be doing. I don't really trust the writing on this show, but so far it's not really clear how much of what's being critiqued is what they intend or just what they've hinted at. They've enjoyed misdirects and surprising the audience before, so really [I haven't seen any spoilers], who knows how it will look after the next episode airs?

[qtpye]

19 hours ago, possibilities said:

If they just wanted to show that other men are attracted to Kate, why did they choose a guy like Duke? Seriously-- there are other options. I'm a lesbian, and even I know that not all guys are either Toby or Duke. And I'm fat as hell, and I find it insulting to think that anyone would pose Duke as an appealing alternative or a way to raise Kate's self-esteem high enough to believe she has options.

I remember reading "Gone With the Wind" (not getting into the horrible racism of the story), but I remember going into it thinking it was supposed to be a great literary love story for popular culture.

When Rhett and Scarlett first get married, he does not allow her to pick any of her dresses.  He will also not allow her to get bangs and burns a false hairpiece of curls that she had bought to augment "her Indian straight hair".  We are supposed to applaud this because Rhett has elegant and sophisticated taste, while Scarlett is tacky and trashy.  He was saving her from herself.

Even as a kid, I was angry that she could not pick out her own dresses or wear her hair however she wanted?  I wonder how would he of felt if someone shaved off his stupid mustache?

Anyway, for some reason, I associate the way the pushy men in Kate's life act with this type of romantic trope.

[luna1122]

29 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I remember reading "Gone With the Wind" (not getting into the horrible racism of the story), but I remember going into it thinking it was supposed to be a great literary love story for popular culture.

When Rhett and Scarlett first get married, he does not allow her to pick any of her dresses.  He will also not allow her to get bangs and burns a false hairpiece of curls that she had bought to augment "her Indian straight hair".  We are supposed to applaud this because Rhett has elegant and sophisticated taste, while Scarlett is tacky and trashy.  He was saving her from herself.

Even as a kid, I was angry that she could not pick out her own dresses or wear her hair however she wanted?  I wonder how would he of felt if someone shaved off his stupid mustache?

Anyway, for some reason, I associate the way the pushy men in Kate's life act with this type of romantic trope.

then, of course, there's the whole 'sexual awakening' that's really rape thing.

But still, I crushed and yearned for Rhett Butler for years, so there's that. And if Duke looked like a modern day Gable (like a Clooney or a Clive Owen or a Robert Downey Jr, or WHOEVER handsomely floats your particular boat), probably a lot of us wouldn't find him gross, but devilishly charming and sexy. I hope I wouldn't be one, I'd SAY I wouldn't be one, but then, if he was Mads Mikkelsen, I'd be knocking on his door, so who knows.

But whatever. Duke is no Clark Gable AND he's a negging Neanderthal, so I hope Kate tells him so tonite instead of falling for his creep schtick.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, luna1122 said:

then, of course, there's the whole 'sexual awakening' that's really rape thing.

But still, I crushed and yearned for Rhett Butler for years, so there's that. And if Duke looked like a modern day Gable (like a Clooney or a Clive Owen or a Robert Downey Jr, or WHOEVER handsomely floats your particular boat), probably a lot of us wouldn't find him gross, but devilishly charming and sexy. I hope I wouldn't be one, I'd SAY I wouldn't be one, but then, if he was Mads Mikkelsen, I'd be knocking on his door, so who knows.

But whatever. Duke is no Clark Gable AND he's a negging Neanderthal, so I hope Kate tells him so tonite instead of falling for his creep schtick.

 I think this is more about the maturity and age of the viewer than the looks of the actor.

I remember when I first watched Flashdance as a teen, I thought it was just a cool 80s dance movie. The creepiness of a 35-year-old man essentially stalking an 18-year-old woman until he wears her down went right over my head. When I rewatched it as an adult, that aspect was so glaring that it ruined the movie for me.

[SlackerInc]

11 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I'm against cheating unless it's mutually decided to be okay within the confines of the relationship, in which case I guess it's not actually cheating. I AM against the term 'feminazi' cuz anything that bloated bloviating  Rush Limbaugh has to do with, and I believe he did coin the term, and pretty much paints all feminists with it, I want no part of.

I would think less of Kate if she cheats, even on Toby, because it would of course hurt him and it's dishonest and unkind. And for Duke? gross.

Happy Valentine's day!

 

10 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

 

Monogamy (or its value to civilization) is beside the point, in my view. A relationship between people who love each other is based on an understanding (stated or implied) about whether or not the relationship is exclusive. When you violate the terms of that understanding, then you are betraying the other person. To me, it's how you impact the person you love, not an intellectual argument that the love or relationship is some societal construct.

I totally agree about the "feminazi" term. It's used to put down women who speak up for their rights and it bugs the crap out of me.

Responding in the Social Issues thread.

[smores]

Beth was out of line with the I call marriage.  Both my husband and I work and we do have an agreement that there are some non-negotiable situations that you need to be at, period.  But, they are laid out ahead of time, and everything else is flexible.  That's not to say it's totally ok to blow other stuff off, but sometimes shit happens and the dinner we planned to have turns into a frozen pizza for one.  It's not a problem, as long as it's not one of the deal breakers (and, in nearly 20 years, there have been about 3 of those).  In Randall's case, he had begged for a chance to submit a proposal for the wind thing, and then because of spending time with William, he didn't complete it.  That's not a good look in his business.  This is followed by him saying, Oh, I have a contact with that company, I'll take him out to dinner! Then he fails to show at the dinner.  It's not really a surprise that he is having some of his accounts reassigned.  He should have been able to overrule Beth in that case about the chess match.

I don't really have super strong feelings about Duke.  Kate seems mildly annoyed with him sometimes, but otherwise isn't that bothered by him, so I can't get that worked up about it.  I don't think he's going about flirting in the best way possible, but, I also think he's likely (if anything) to be a kind of rebound person for her as she breaks away from Toby.

Toby was a creeper trolling for women at the OA meetings, so he's only like half a step above Duke in that regard.  I also think that Toby has gone out of his way to sabotage Kate pretty much the whole way (not on purpose, exactly), so I'm not 100% in his corner now.  When they were in LA, he went off his diet, and said he'd stick to it when around her, then dropped it altogether.  He told her to go off to this camp, that it would be totally fine and he'd be totally fine and to take the time she needed for herself and he'd be there when she was done.  Yet, he shows up at the first chance he has to try to take her out for the day.  Sure it was to propose, but, that disrupts her focus.  Then when he came into the class, he had to have all eyes on him.  He just can't let her have the space to work on herself in her way.  

[Katy M]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 2:14 AM, smores said:

He should have been able to overrule Beth in that case about the chess match.

It was also a chess match that the daughter didn't even tell her parents about.  She wrote it on the white board that they apparently don't check.  I'm not saying you should be jerky to kids just cause, but it would have been a lesson to her.  If she even cared if her dad was there or not.  She probably only really cared that her grandfather was.

 

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 2:14 AM, smores said:

he went off his diet, and said he'd stick to it when around her, then dropped it altogether.

To be fair to him, she told him not to diet around her, because then she would just think of it as cheating on her when she wasn't around.  Didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but he was just following her wishes.

[OtterMommy]

On 2/15/2017 at 11:14 PM, smores said:

Toby was a creeper trolling for women at the OA meetings, so he's only like half a step above Duke in that regard.  I also think that Toby has gone out of his way to sabotage Kate pretty much the whole way (not on purpose, exactly), so I'm not 100% in his corner now.  When they were in LA, he went off his diet, and said he'd stick to it when around her, then dropped it altogether.  He told her to go off to this camp, that it would be totally fine and he'd be totally fine and to take the time she needed for herself and he'd be there when she was done.  Yet, he shows up at the first chance he has to try to take her out for the day.  Sure it was to propose, but, that disrupts her focus.  Then when he came into the class, he had to have all eyes on him.  He just can't let her have the space to work on herself in her way.  

I don't think we can say that about Toby.  All we know is that he noticed Kate at a meeting and struck up a conversation with her.  Yes, he may have done this at every meeting he'd ever attended before that....or maybe this was the first time.  We don't know.  We don't know if he was at that meeting because he wanted support in trying to lose weight or if he was trolling for dates.  I'm not a Toby fan, although I would say I've gone from disliking him to being ambivalent towards him, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this regard.

[Quickbeam]

Just watched this ep for the first time. Flove Kevin's affection for Sophie. Want Randall to have his blood pressure checked. Again, hate Miguel. 

[Superpole2000]

On 2/8/2017 at 11:11 AM, JudyObscure said:

Beth is controlling and bossy.  If they have an, "I call marriage," clause, surely it was intended for things like, "My mother just died, stay home from work with me."  Not a chess match.  It's great to attend your kids' events, but when they're in a whole lot of activities and you have a demanding job, you might just have to miss a few things. The kids should learn that having a cheering section isn't a guaranteed thing for every moment of life.

I was excited to read this because it's how I have felt about Beth. I didn't like how she tried to control Randall in this episode, especially after how when Randall was talking that guy off the ledge a few episodes ago, Beth told Randall not to tell her what to do instead of actually listening when Randall urgently told her to back away from the situation. Also, Beth seems to assume that Randall's lucrative job is a given and that it can take a back seat to anything else the family needs. This is generally not realistic. How good is this marriage going to be if Randall's job disappears? Calling marriage sometimes means getting your ass into work and taking care of the people who pay you so that you keep getting paid.