Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[jcin617]

I'm still wondering why the First Order thought the only option for pursuing the Resistance was chasing them at sub-light speeds.   Why not have a few of those Star Destroyers jump ahead at light speed and cut them off.   I'm just hand-waving that there's a minimum distance a jump to lightspeed takes you and it would take too long to double-back at sub-light speeds.

[SimoneS]

On 12/16/2017 at 10:35 PM, raven said:

I floved bitter older Luke.   I may be fangirling but I can't criticize anything about his scenes, alone, with Rey or with Yoda (OK, milking that creature and drinking the milk was pretty gross).

I thought Mark Hamill was a stand out, selling crustiness, fear, sadness.   His total weariness with Yoda made me sad for Luke, the idealistic farm boy who had stars in his eyes and thought there would be a happy ending. ogether.

I am amazed that more people aren't talking about Mark Hamill's stellar performance in this movie, maybe this jaded Luke is hard to digest. I never gave much thought about Hamill's acting talent, but his portrayal of Luke's disillusionment and despair was outstanding. It is difficult to see the young hopeful Luke in this state, but life is like that sometimes, crushingly disappointing. The Jedi had failed and lost so much. Just when Luke thought that he could revive the Jedi, it all falls into ruin and because of his nephew. I did chuckle when he told Rey that when he took Ben, "Han was Han." You know exactly what he meant. It isn't surprising that Luke cannot bear to face Leia or the world. I was glad that before the end Luke found his hope again.

I have to say even though we are in the second movie I still cannot believe that Leia, Han, and Luke could raise such an evil kid. A troubled one, yes, but one that could turn to the dark side so easily, hell no! I wish Rey was their daughter and Kylo was another evil sith lord.

Edited December 18, 2017 by SimoneS

[anna0852]

I'm holding out hope that Rey still turns out to be Han and Leia's kid. I know there are arguments to be made about how it's not your bloodline that makes you what you are, it's the choices you make and therefore Rey shouldn't be a Skywalker at all. But I'd really like something good to have come from Han and Leia's relationship.  I think she was Ben little sister that he couldn't bring himself to kill when he destroyed the temple so he messed with her memories and left her on Jakku. But her parents/uncle did think she was dead and the guilt of one child destroying the other was enough to break them all apart.

I'm not convinced that Kylo was a reliable source when discussing Rey's parentage. He was clearly trying to bring her to his side and would say anything he thought would accomplish that.

I guess Episode 9 will prove me right or wrong.

[scarynikki12]

This movie is even better the second time.  This time I got to appreciate it since I knew what would happen.  The emotional moments like Paige's death, Kylo and Leia sensing each other and his subsequent decision to not pull the trigger, Luke and Leia's reunion, and Luke's death resonated far more this time around. 

As promised, I paid more attention to Poe with regard to Rey.  I think his crush started when she showed up in the Falcon and saved everyone.  He was super impressed with her flying and grateful that she drew the fighters' focus.  Then, as I thought, her rock levitation blew him away.  In that scene Finn and Poe are at the front of the line and Finn is gazing around in wonder while Poe is laser focused on Rey.  His crush started earlier but that's definitely the moment he decided to seek her out when things calmed down. 

The second viewing also made me get on board with Rose and Finn.  John never plays it like he did when Finn was crushing on Rey but he does show Finn's increasing attachment to Rose and the relationship in general feels solid.  Kelly actually does the same with Rose's feelings for Finn, though I'll admit the kiss feels like it is a movie too soon.  Early in 9 would make more sense but I can buy that she thought she was dying and went for it.  Not a big deal.

3 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

I'm not convinced that Kylo was a reliable source when discussing Rey's parentage. He was clearly trying to bring her to his side and would say anything he thought would accomplish that.

Agreed.  After tonight I'm leaning toward Rey being a very young student of Luke's who Kylo sent/took to Jakku rather than kill (maybe we'll learn that some of his feelings of inadequacy with regard to Vader's legacy include being unable to kill children and OF COURSE Kylo Ren would see this as a bad thing).  I do think he was lying when he said her parents sold her for beer money and are buried in the Jakku desert.  I think he sensed that she fears that's the reason and played on it.  I wouldn't be surprised if he has no idea who her parents were.  I feel like they're dead, though, and Rey will learn this, accept it, and then forge ahead with her chosen family.  My headcanon (which will never happen cause I'm terrible at predicting things) is that Rey's parents knew she was Force sensitive and sent her to Luke to avoid her taken by the First Order like Finn was.  They were killed shortly after by Snoke's men and that's why they never searched for her.

I have to give Driver props for this movie.  Kylo Ren is a child having a temper tantrum but Driver never takes him into cartoon territory.  And Kylo is a child emotionally.  One of the quiet themes in this trilogy is Kylo's jealousy of Rey in the way that older siblings can be of the younger ones.  I think half of his rage at seeing the Falcon comes from the fact that Rey inherited it with the other half being the reminder of Han.  I wouldn't be surprised if he says a version of "you took everything that's supposed to be mine!" in 9.  He already got territorial about Anakin's lightsaber in 7 when they faced each other and he knows she's got Chewie, Leia, and Luke supporting her.  He just has Hux to play with (which I love).  His rejection of Rey's offer of redemption and turning to the light really only hurts him and I think he's denying that truth. 

Which brings me to another thing I loved: Rey's visit to The Dark Side.  That mirror scene was great.  It was creepy, surreal, and demonstrated how DS users are always looking at how everything affects them.  Kylo certainly proves that time and time again. 

Seriously, everyone should see this at least twice just to catch everything.

[ulkis]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I am amazed that more people aren't talking about Mark Hamill's stellar performance in this movie, maybe this jaded Luke is hard to digest.

I've always thought MH delivered a good performance in the OT, so his performing well isn't the first that pops up in my mind. I guess it's the same for a lot of people as well.

But I think you're right as well that maybe Luke's characterization is startling for some.

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, raven said:

I LOVED that Kylo killed Snoke because he wanted to be Supreme Commander.  I don't care about Snoke (more CGI, sorry Andy Serkis, should have just used your own face/body) who he was, where he got his powers. He didn't interest me in TFA and didn't interest me here.  I completely understand that Kylo would kill him when he had the chance - at that moment, Snoke is saying "my apprentice will take up the weapon to kill his greatest enemy" - paraphrase - and Kylo realizes "hey dude, it's you, who's been insulting and using me.  F you, I want to be in charge now and maybe bring Rey with me. "  Kylo is taking the opposite tack that a young Luke Skywalker did - Luke wanted to know all about his father and be like him; Kylo is rejecting what he knows, kills his father then his mentor and wants to forge on without the past, committing to the dark side.   Plus the Rey/Kylo fight with the red guards was really well done and exciting.

See, I don't think that was quite it.  Kylo isn't really a planner or schemer like Palpatine, Snoke or even Vader.  He's fully within the Dark Side all the time, always filled with fear and the anger that brings.  When Kylo brought Rey to Snoke, he'd thought he'd had a genuine vision and forged a real connection through the Force.  Then he suddenly learned that no, that was all bullshit, that Snoke was manipulating him to get to Skywalker.  And in that moment Kylo decided, "Fuck that shit!"  He killed Snoke to punish him and be rid of him so he could finally be with the only being he thought would understand him and be his partner, Rey.  Being in charge of the First Order was more of an afterthought when Hux found him.  Even then he doesn't really care about being in charge.  He just planned to use the First Order to finish destroying his past, now including his mother and Rey.

As bad as Palpatine and Snoke were, they were ultimately beings seeking power.  They wanted to rule the Galaxy.  Which means they wanted it mostly intact with a functioning civilization.  At this point Kylo Ren is fine with burning the Galaxy down with the idea of maybe building something new in the ashes.

Edited December 17, 2017 by johntfs

[VCRTracking]

My feeling is the First Order is going to crumble under Kylo's leadership.

I read so many negative tweets actually criticizing the amount of humor in the movie. Like it wasn't like groaners in the prequels, there were actual funny jokes that got laughs, but people were OFFENDED that it was so funny. "This isn't a Marvel movie!" I realized these fans only want a Star Wars movie to be a certain way.

Edited December 17, 2017 by VCRTracking

[scarynikki12]

14 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I read so many negative tweets actually criticizing the amount of humor in the movie. Like it wasn't like groaners in the prequels, there were actual funny jokes that got laughs, but people were OFFENDED that it was so funny.

Which is weird because the original trilogy is full of humor.  A lot of it comes from Han being Han but it still counts.  Empire even has my funniest moment: when Han returns from being tortured he looks at Leia and dazedly says "I feel terrible" before collapsing.  It's not slapstick funny but Ford plays him as just, bewildered, and it gets a long giggle out of me every time.

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

My feeling is the First Order is going to crumble under Kylo's leadership.

I'm telling you, Hux is going to do something to help the Resistance and flip the bird to Kylo.

[VCRTracking]

19 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

I'm telling you, Hux is going to do something to help the Resistance and flip the bird to Kylo.

It would be very similar to a character's arc on Star Wars Rebels.

[Jediknight]

10 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

It would be very similar to a character's arc on Star Wars Rebels.

I love Kallus, I had a huge smile when he welcomed the Ghost crew to Yavin.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I read so many negative tweets actually criticizing the amount of humor in the movie. Like it wasn't like groaners in the prequels, there were actual funny jokes that got laughs, but people were OFFENDED that it was so funny. "This isn't a Marvel movie!" I realized these fans only want a Star Wars movie to be a certain way.

One argument I've seen is that  people who don't (can't) appreciate the new movies like The Force Awakens and this one is they're "too old" to get it, which.....please. I do think there's something to the idea that some fandoms are more difficult to please than others, particularly ones with such long histories. I was eight when the first Star Wars movie came out, so some of the younger crowd who get hyped up in advance today might not even have been born then. That said, I don't think there was a huge amount of humor, or that it needs to be toned down for the next film, which I've also seen suggested.

[ZoqFotPik]

3 hours ago, jcin617 said:

I'm still wondering why the First Order thought the only option for pursuing the Resistance was chasing them at sub-light speeds.   Why not have a few of those Star Destroyers jump ahead at light speed and cut them off.   I'm just hand-waving that there's a minimum distance a jump to lightspeed takes you and it would take too long to double-back at sub-light speeds.

Or had some of their support ships accelerate to challenge them, or Zerg rush the fleet with TIE fighters. The Supremacy was the width of Rhode Island, it must have had thousands of TIEs.  There were a lot things they could have done. Although, Star Wars tactics have never made a lot of sense to me. As another example,  the Resistance is still using seemly unguided, free falling bombs.

Overall I thought the movie was good/okay. I felt the middle dragged too much. Phasma was only slightly less wasted than she was in TFA, at least here she got a fight scene. After the build up of Snoke, he turns out to be a chump. And Rey's parents turn out to be nobodys , although I'm on the fence if Kylo was telling the truth. I thought Holdo had potential. She really should have told her hot headed starfighter corps commander her plan. And honestly, she looked more like she was going to a dinner party than leading an army. I wish she was still around for Episode IX.  

[VCRTracking]

I don't think there has been a Star Wars movie that has completely satisfied all Star Wars fans since the first Star Wars. People love The Empire Strikes Back now and say it's the best one but a lot of fans back when it came out did not like the darker tone, cliffhanger ending or that Vader was Luke's father. Now with time people have accepted it. Same with Return of the Jedi It wasn't just Ewoks fans hated. They wanted Luke to kill Vader, not redeem him and that Vader be the main bad guy not some guy in a robe. Now Palpatine is considered a great villain and those scenes are some of the best in the series. I think some people are  going to come around to the developments in The Last Jedi and they're going to be others who'll stay bitter till they die and the younger generations are going to accept it.

Edited December 17, 2017 by VCRTracking

[starri]

You know, TFA was the worst movie ever because it was too much like the OT.  So now, TLJ has replaced it as same because it wasn't enough like the OT.

This is basically every genre movie in microcosm.

[Browncoat]

9 hours ago, MrsR said:

Her plot went absolutely no where.

Yet.  Remember, this is Act II.

Also, to the person upthread (sorry, I can't find it) who complained that there were too many plot lines and everyone was all separated -- in Empire, Act II of the original trilogy, there were multiple plot lines and everyone was separated.  Luke was off on Dagobah, Han and Leia were fighting giant space slugs, etc., etc. 

[SNeaker]

In Empire, the story begins years after the first movie, showing the passage of time and how close Han, Leia, and Luke have become. Then it separates Luke from Leia and Han, but each character has a noticeable journey and arc -- they are all three very different at the end than at the beginning. Han and Leia are together throughout, and their dynamic is further explored and developed. At movie's end, we understand the deep bond these three have, and how it is both their weakness and their strength.

By contrast, this movie starts right after the last one ended. All established relationships are what they were at the end of the last film, and none of them get any development (Poe and Rey don't even meet for the first time until the end!) All three of the main young leads are in completely separate stories. There is no development, and all three characters are exactly the same at the end of the movie as they were at the start. With Rey, the movie throughout hinted and teased at things happening, but it was all a big "gotcha!" to play with the audience and the fan theories -- "is she a Skywalker and therefore a sibling or cousin of Kylo? Is she not a Skywalker but she and Kylo will fall in love?" -- nope, she has no relation, and she is good and loyal and true. Just like she always was, and she and Ren have no actual connection so killing him should be nbd, especially since she doesn't even  have to worry next movie about it hurting Leia since Leia will be gone. Finn became a sidekick in his own story. Poe is a hotshot. Still a hotshot.

As for the humor -- I had no issue with the amount of it and laughed a lot, and yes, it is a huge relief after the humorless prequels. But some of it felt like not Star Wars-y type humor, in the sense that it was Whedonesque and sometimes jarring in its contemporary language. Yoda talking about the Jedi texts not being "page turners" for instance.

Edited December 17, 2017 by SNeaker

[Joe]

1 hour ago, starri said:

You know, TFA was the worst movie ever because it was too much like the OT.  So now, TLJ has replaced it as same because it wasn't enough like the OT.

This is basically every genre movie in microcosm.

But I really like them both! neither are perfect, but they're still pretty good. Am I just wrong? Do I need to declare my hate for both?

[absnow54]

I have wanted to see the movies explore Leia's connection to the Force since Empire, but I absolutely hated the Leia flying in space scene. It was so corny looking and didn't match up with all the ways we've seen the Force used before. I would have preferred for her to use the Force to hold the bridge together after it was blown up long enough for her and a few others to escape. The space flying was just too much for me, and it took me several scenes to get over the WTF-ness of it and get back into the movie.

9 hours ago, raven said:

I knew something was up with the light saber fight with Kylo because his hair was shorter (I'm thinking did Luke stop at the barber before the fight??) so I wondered if it were a projection yet hoping it wasn't, because Luke physically stopping all the blasts to kill him would have been awesome. 

I like seeing how everyone determined Luke wasn't actually there. The cleaned up look and new outfit had me suspect, and, you know, surviving a billion laser blasts, but it wasn't until he pulled out Anakin's lightsaber, which we saw Kylo and Rey destroy, that I was like "Kylo, you damn fool, you are fighting a ghost!"

8 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I'm holding out hope that Rey still turns out to be Han and Leia's kid. I know there are arguments to be made about how it's not your bloodline that makes you what you are, it's the choices you make and therefore Rey shouldn't be a Skywalker at all. But I'd really like something good to have come from Han and Leia's relationship.  I think she was Ben little sister that he couldn't bring himself to kill when he destroyed the temple so he messed with her memories and left her on Jakku. But her parents/uncle did think she was dead and the guilt of one child destroying the other was enough to break them all apart.

I'm not convinced that Kylo was a reliable source when discussing Rey's parentage. He was clearly trying to bring her to his side and would say anything he thought would accomplish that.

I'm still on the fence about this. My first instinct was that Kylo was lying and he wanted to keep Rey's powers in check. "Yes, you're powerful and you should join me, but you're parents are nobody's and my bloodline is legendary, so I'm in charge." But at the same time, if her parents were important, like Han and Leia, why wouldn't Kylo use their abandonment to fuel Rey's anger? I do still think that Rey was one of the Jedi at the temple and that Kylo was responsible for her being on Jakuu, but I think her heritage could go either way.

7 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

In Empire, the story begins years after the first movie, showing the passage of time and how close Han, Leia, and Luke have become. Then it separates Luke from Leia and Han, but each character has a noticeable journey and arc -- they are all three very different at the end than at the beginning. Han and Leia are together throughout, and their dynamic is further explored and developed. At movie's end, we understand the deep bond these three have, and how it is both their weakness and their strength.

By contrast, this movie starts right after the last one ended. All established relationships are what they were at the end of the last film, and none of them get any development (Poe and Rey don't even meet until the end!) All three of the main young leads are in completely separate stories. There is no development, and all three characters are exactly the same at the end of the movie was they were at the start. With Rey, the movie throughout hinted and teased at things happening, but it was all a big "gotcha!" to play with the audience and the fan theories (is she a Skywalker and therefore a sibling or cousin of Ren? Is she not a Skywalker but she and Ren will fall in love?") Nope, she is good and loyal and true. Just like she always was, and she and Ren have no actual connection so killing him should be nbd, especially since she doesn't even  have to worry next movie about it hurting Leia since Leia will be gone. Finn became a sidekick in his own story. Poe is a hotshot. Still a hotshot.

I agree. Star Wars has always used the first movie to introduce characters and throw them together on the same overarching journey, and then split them up on their own adventures in the second and third. The prequels did this too. It didn't work for me in The Last Jedi because they split them all up too much, and their stories never really cohesively connected. I'd hate to leave Leia behind, but they really should have put Poe into Rose/Finn's story instead of leaving him on a slow moving ship to no where. And Rey should have rejoined Finn's storyline when they were all trying to escape the same ship instead of magically reappearing on the Falcon. My point is, it's great to have multiple story arcs going on in a film, but in this case, they all felt too disjointed, that when they were all reunited in the end, it didn't feel earned.

5 hours ago, ZoqFotPik said:

Or had some of their support ships accelerate to challenge them, or Zerg rush the fleet with TIE fighters. The Supremacy was the width of Rhode Island, it must have had thousands of TIEs.  There were a lot things they could have done. Although, Star Wars tactics have never made a lot of sense to me. As another example,  the Resistance is still using seemly unguided, free falling bombs.

This! They can get a battering ram canon in a matter of seconds, but they can't take down a ship moving at a slug's pace after multiple days? And the TIEs were obviously doing a lot of damage, they were able to take out the main bridge pretty easily. Why didn't they just target the shields... or the fuel tank? And those bombers were cool and an obvious homage to WWII aviation, but they were also REALLY inefficient, especially since we've seen self guided missals to be available in the prequels.  

[starri]

1 minute ago, Joe said:

But I really like them both! neither are perfect, but they're still pretty good. Am I just wrong? Do I need to declare my hate for both?

No. It’s just this fanboy, fickle herd mentality that makes discussing things in most corners (not this one) of the internet kind of tiring. 

[Joe]

6 minutes ago, starri said:

No. It’s just this fanboy, fickle herd mentality that makes discussing things in most corners (not this one) of the internet kind of tiring. 

Don't worry, I was joking. My love for things isn't fickle.

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I have wanted to see the movies explore Leia's connection to the Force since Empire, but I absolutely hated the Leia flying in space scene. It was so corny looking and didn't match up with all the ways we've seen the Force used before. I would have preferred for her to use the Force to hold the bridge together after it was blown up long enough for her and a few others to escape. The space flying was just too much for me, and it took me several scenes to get over the WTF-ness of it and get back into the movie.

I can definitely understand this.  I've always wanted to get more about her connection to the Force too, but I think because she chose not to train, her connection was always more personal, internal, so I thought the context made sense, but I would agree that the execution of the visual to tell that was not effectively done.  I feel about that similar to how I do about the Canto Bight stuff... I like the idea of it, but the execution was less than I would have hoped, so on first viewing it was disappointing.  But I think all of those kinds of reactions for me will go away once I see it again.     

And I am one of those people who didn't/don't particularly care for ESB, but I appreciate it for it's place in the larger story.  RotJ made ESB better for me, just like The Winter Soldier made The First Avenger a MUCH better movie for me.  

[The Kings Foot]

11 hours ago, MrsR said:

And yet she was willing to let all the remaining members of The Resistance die because of a crush. She had no idea that Luke would show up. That the fox would show them the exit or that Rey and Chewie would make it back to evacuate everyone.

Yeah she is a SJW. She's brimming with concern for social issues.

Her plot went absolutely no where. 

1. She was also obeying orders. You know the one that Poe gave to abandon the attack. Did you honestly miss that half the movie was trying to drill into the youngsters heads that the Resistance needs you to follow the plan and not go on some half cocked heroic sacrifice. 

 

2. So i guess you consider the Resistance and rebellion to also be SJWs? 

Edited December 17, 2017 by The Kings Foot

[StaceyNotStacie]

7 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I'm telling you, Hux is going to do something to help the Resistance and flip the bird to Kylo.

I’m wondering if Hux was one of the boys that Ben didn’t kill. 

I really enjoyed this film. I thought MH did a great job. I think it was seeing R2 that made Luke decide to help. His voice and gave really lit up when he saw the little guy. 

I’m really curious as to where they’re going with the next movie, especially since they’re without Carrie. My guess would be some sort of timejump with the boy in the stable SORASed to be a part of the group. 

[The Kings Foot]

1 hour ago, SNeaker said:

In Empire, the story begins years after the first movie, showing the passage of time and how close Han, Leia, and Luke have become. Then it separates Luke from Leia and Han, but each character has a noticeable journey and arc -- they are all three very different at the end than at the beginning. Han and Leia are together throughout, and their dynamic is further explored and developed. At movie's end, we understand the deep bond these three have, and how it is both their weakness and their strength.

By contrast, this movie starts right after the last one ended. All established relationships are what they were at the end of the last film, and none of them get any development (Poe and Rey don't even meet for the first time until the end!) All three of the main young leads are in completely separate stories. There is no development, and all three characters are exactly the same at the end of the movie as they were at the start. With Rey, the movie throughout hinted and teased at things happening, but it was all a big "gotcha!" to play with the audience and the fan theories -- "is she a Skywalker and therefore a sibling or cousin of Kylo? Is she not a Skywalker but she and Kylo will fall in love?" -- nope, she has no relation, and she is good and loyal and true. Just like she always was, and she and Ren have no actual connection so killing him should be nbd, especially since she doesn't even  have to worry next movie about it hurting Leia since Leia will be gone. Finn became a sidekick in his own story. Poe is a hotshot. Still a hotshot.

Incorrect. 

Rey is now certain of her place and what she has to do. 

Poe is no longer a complete maverick as can be seen by his calling off the attack on the battering ram. 

Finn now cares about something bigger than himself or Rey. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by The Kings Foot

[SimoneS]

9 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I'm telling you, Hux is going to do something to help the Resistance and flip the bird to Kylo.

I have been wondering about Hux. Luke mentioned that Kylo took some of his pupils and killed the rest. Could Hux be one of Luke's pupils? He might have some talent with the Force.

[SNeaker]

1 hour ago, The Kings Foot said:

Incorrect. 

Rey is now certain of her place and what she has to do. 

Poe is no longer a complete maverick as can be seen by his calling off the attack on the battering ram. 

Finn now cares about something bigger than himself or Rey. 

Rey -- why, though? What about what she learned in this movie made her more certain than before? She was pretty certain at the end of the last one that she wanted to help the Resistance. She learned very little about the force. All she did was accept that her parents are dead. But she didn't change or grow in any way.

Poe - eh.

Finn - again, why? Because now there's another nice girl he connected with? If that was his story, it was not well told. There is so much more to explore with him, and his entire plotline was a waste of time and excruciatingly boring.

[MrsR]

2 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

She was also obeying orders. You know the one that Poe gave to abandon the attack.

When was she given an order to crash into Finn at high speeds thus risking her life and Finn's life and damaging precious equipment? She was ordered. to peel off and come back.

 

2 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Did you honestly miss that half the movie was trying to drill into the youngsters heads that the Resistance needs you to follow the plan and not go on some half cocked heroic sacrifice. 

No, but apparently she did because that's EXACTLY what she did.

2 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

So i guess you consider the Resistance and rebellion to also be SJWs?

To some extent, yeah. But not presented in such a lame brained obviously contemporary manner. 

She's lecturing a guy who was taken from his family and raised to be a brainwashed slave but who resisted his programming about how dreadful the world can be. I think he knows. We the audience already know that too. It was ham handed and pandering.

[absnow54]

20 minutes ago, MrsR said:

When was she given an order to crash into Finn at high speeds thus risking her life and Finn's life and damaging precious equipment?

I just like that barely functioning speeders that Poe literally bust his foot through is being called precious equipment. I mean you're right, a speeder's a speeder and better than no speeder, but still, funny. 

[VCRTracking]

37 minutes ago, MrsR said:

She's lecturing a guy who was taken from his family and raised to be a brainwashed slave but who resisted his programming about how dreadful the world can be. I think he knows. We the audience already know that too. It was ham handed and pandering.

She was lecturing a guy dazzled by all the fancy wealth and splendor who didn't know that it's due to the same First Order he ran from.

It seems the reaction to TLJ overall is mostly positive but the positive response isn't an enthusiastic "IT WAS AWESOME!" It's more measured like "It was different but I enjoyed it", "The choices were bold but I found it satisfying."  While the negative may be the minority it's mostly in the tone of "IT SUCKS! THIS IS THE WORST MOVIE EVER!! IT RUINED STAR WARS!"

Edited December 17, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Wynterwolf]

16 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

It seems the reaction to TLJ overall in the world at large is mostly positive but the positive response isn't an enthusiastic "THIS IS THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER!" It's more measured like "It was different but I enjoyed it" and "I like the bold choices." While the negative may be the minority it's mostly in the tone of "IT SUCKS! THIS IS THE WORST MOVIE EVER!! IT RUINED STAR WARS!"

Yes, that's what I'm getting too.  And yes, I'm in the positive reaction, but it's taking a lot of thinking to unpack the character motives and development and I REALLY need to see it again so I can continue with that process so it's not something I immediately gush about.  But there are a lot of layers here and complex motivations and I LOVE that, but it is making me have to take time with it.  

Like Rose's decision to stop Finn.  In a way, this kind of echos the lesson Poe was having to learn, that you can win the battle, but loose the war if you waste your resources.  And in the case of Rose, FINN was the resource that shouldn't be wasted on something that was being handled by others (namely getting the remainder of the Resistance out of harms way).  If Finn had sacrificed himself in that instance, it would eventually been for no benefit (like Luke sequestering himself on an island), because they found a way out of the cave through the ice foxes, and Rey was at the end to complete that task and whisk them away.  And Finn is SO focused on protecting Rey, that he doesn't realize that that isn't what she needs from him.  So yeah... there is just a lot to unpack, so it's not something I can jump up and down immediately about, but the more I process and think about it... the better it gets.  

Edited December 17, 2017 by Wynterwolf

[TobinAlbers]

About Projection Luke looking different from Island Luke and that being the tip off- for me it wasn't necessarily a tip off because in old school warrior movies when the old warrior comes out of seclusion for his last stand he usually does  clean himself up (shave, haircut, etc.) and don his warrior garb aka suit up for his final stand. He's putting on his appropriate attire as part of his job. Normally we see this onscreen on a montage but Rian appeared to skip that just to have Luke show up ready for battle and actually used that expectation to his advantage for the twist. Notice Luke appears to Kylo Ben styled as he last saw him with the short hair and beard, clean robes of brown and tan. The master was coming to do battle with his lapsed student much like Obi Wan did with Anakin. In fact both Luke and Obi were styled the same with beard and shorter hair as Anakin and Kylo were styled in black with longish hair when their final duels took place. Just really nicely done.

Just as those dice we saw are sure to show up in Solo, money says we're going to see that island and those books again in the Kenobi solo movie if it ever gets off the ground. I can see Obi having visited the island at some point.

[anna0852]

Not that I want to give Kylo any sympathy at all, but I can see how terrified he must have been to awaken and see his uncle standing over him with an ignited lightsaber. I do believe that was his tipping point to acting on those dark impulses.

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, anna0852 said:

Not that I want to give Kylo any sympathy at all, but I can see how terrified he must have been to awaken and see his uncle standing over him with an ignited lightsaber. I do believe that was his tipping point to acting on those dark impulses.

Sure, I can feel sympathy for that too... the hurt and betrayal he must have felt.  But that's not a reason to do evil.  It could have just as easily been a tipping point for Kylo to realize he was on a dark path and to stop.  But he didn't stop, he doubled down on the evil and kept going.    

[calliope1975]

I can understand why Kylo Ben would be afraid and betrayed by what he saw with his uncle, but didn't he then slaughter a bunch of kids/Jedi in training? After that, he's had multiple opportunities to course correct and he doubles down almost every time. I hope he can't feel that Leia is still alive, and I'm bummed we'll never get to see Leia kicking her son's ass like we saw from his uncle. 

[Ariah]

Just saw it and loved it.

There were parts that felt glued to the film (the whole casino planet stuff felt like taken from parts I-III), but on the whole, it was better than Rogue I for me.

As for midichlorians - perhaps Qui-Gon Jinn was the only Jedi to talk about those things (and when he started, the other Jedi would just politely excuse themselves and leave poor Qui-Gon explaining his theories to strangers)?

[Joe]

Hux's backstory is laid out in the books. I haven't read them, but I think that his father was high up in the Empire, and helped found the First Order.

[Wynterwolf]

Just now, Joe said:

Hux's backstory is laid out in the books. I haven't read them, but I think that his father was high up in the Empire, and helped found the First Order.

He definitely feels like the product of nepotism. 

[SNeaker]

I feel like I keep seeing some variation of this:

Critics: The Last Jedi is an awesome movie because it takes everything about Star Wars and turns it on its head! Burns it to the ground! Completely destroys what you loved and what you believed and tells you all your theories meant nothing! It's a big "fuck you!" to the audience!

Media: Fans don't seem to like The Last Jedi and we can't figure out why.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Sure, I can feel sympathy for that too... the hurt and betrayal he must have felt.  But that's not a reason to do evil.  It could have just as easily been a tipping point for Kylo to realize he was on a dark path and to stop.  But he didn't stop, he doubled down on the evil and kept going.    

 

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I can understand why Kylo Ben would be afraid and betrayed by what he saw with his uncle, but didn't he then slaughter a bunch of kids/Jedi in training? After that, he's had multiple opportunities to course correct and he doubles down almost every time. I hope he can't feel that Leia is still alive, and I'm bummed we'll never get to see Leia kicking her son's ass like we saw from his uncle. 

Yeah, that's how I feel. Ben could've just run off to Snoke, he didn't have to kill all those little kids. So no sympathy from me. When he dies, I'll just be all, "Bye Felicia."

[The Kings Foot]

5 hours ago, MrsR said:

When was she given an order to crash into Finn at high speeds thus risking her life and Finn's life and damaging precious equipment? She was ordered. to peel off and come back.

 

No, but apparently she did because that's EXACTLY what she did.

To some extent, yeah. But not presented in such a lame brained obviously contemporary manner. 

She's lecturing a guy who was taken from his family and raised to be a brainwashed slave but who resisted his programming about how dreadful the world can be. I think he knows. We the audience already know that too. It was ham handed and pandering.

As stated by Wynterwolf. Finn was the precious equipment that needed saving. 

5 hours ago, SNeaker said:

Rey -- why, though? What about what she learned in this movie made her more certain than before? She was pretty certain at the end of the last one that she wanted to help the Resistance. She learned very little about the force. All she did was accept that her parents are dead. But she didn't change or grow in any way.

Poe - eh.

Finn - again, why? Because now there's another nice girl he connected with? If that was his story, it was not well told. There is so much more to explore with him, and his entire plotline was a waste of time and excruciatingly boring.

Rey. - because now she's been through the temptation of the dark side and found it empty and without answers. She was always fearful of the power she was conjuring. Now she knows it won't swallow her the way it did Kylo. 

 

Finn - because nice girl showed him that there is no corner of the galaxy he can run to and hide. Even if the FO isn't there, there are other things that need fixing. 

[johntfs]

8 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, that's how I feel. Ben could've just run off to Snoke, he didn't have to kill all those little kids.

At some points war becomes it's own justification.  Ben sees Luke apparently about to kill him and he defends himself.  Luke is the enemy.  Anyone with Luke is also the enemy.  Anyone who later disagrees with him or questions his path is also the enemy (while some of the kids went with Kylo there are none with with him now, so they're likely dead).

[SnoGirl]

Wow. I just got back from seeing the movie. I spent the entire weekend avoiding spoilers at all costs, and Im glad I did. And so many girls were at my showing, complete with Rey hair or Star Wars shirts. I teared up.

This movie should really be called “The Worst 48-ish Hours in the Galaxy’s History.” Am I wrong? They really did pick right up after Force Awakens. I thought the timelines were a little wonky, it seemed like Rey was with Luke for much longer than the the world’s longest/slowest get-away attempt. And where did all the Rebels go? There was like 12 at the end. I get rising from the ashes but damn, this movie decimated the Rebellion so close to them taking out the Starkiller.

I loved everything our main characters. I do wish we would have seen Rey/Poe/Finn together more. One of my favorite scenes was Poe/Finn/Rose calling Maz. I hope the last movie is Rey/Poe/Finn/Rose together more. I liked the growth we saw in a short amount of time. Poe recognized the importance of life over winning battles. Finn realized the rebellion is more than just one life. Rose stepped out from behind the scenes and right into the rebellion. And Rey finally started to let go of her past.

There is just so much to unpack, but my absolute favorite scene was the lightspeed crusier into the First Order’s ship. Not enough can be said for how beautiful the scene was and the amazing choice to drop all sound. I dont think anyone even took a breath until the sound returned. It was powerful to think it was silent as Kylo Ren made his move to power as everything that was, was now gone. I also loved the battle on the Salt planet. It was visually beautiful too, with the red constantly exploding from blaster hits. And Luke’s fight with Kylo Ren was earned.

Can I just say, Leia’s floating scene was a shout-out to Carrie’s quote of “I want it reported that I drowned in moonlight, strangled by my own bra.” Thats all I could think of during that scene. And screw the jerks who are trash talking Leia because of it. We dont know how powerful she would have been if she had been trained. Luke wasnt the only offspring of Anakin and Padme.

This might be unpopular, but Leia’s story cannot end here. I dont know how they do it, but I hope she’s finally successful against the First Order once and for all.

Edited December 17, 2017 by SnoGirl

[Lantern7]

That was fun. Would have lost money betting that somebody would have lost a hand. Hey, second movie in a trilogy, it was guaranteed, right? Even with the looming bleakness, there was still fun to be had. Knowing that we had one more movie to go also didn't hurt.

Bit disbelief that Luke could basically project himself that far, talk with Leia, then call out Kylo Ren, and punk him like the bitch that he was. I'm happy he did the Kenobi fade without getting killed. Slightly less implausible was Leia saving herself. I dunno . . . I figured that you can have the Force, you can be force sensitive but not do the really sweet stuff, or you didn't. Kinda feel that maybe Leia would've dodged the bullets that Han and Luke caught after IX. I'm guessing Abrams had a backup plan.

Seriously, anybody here ever see South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut? I want something with Luke in Cartman's place, singing "Kylo Ren's A Bitch" directly at Kylo Ren. Because he's a bitch. He was so close fighting with Rey . . . and then he approached the throne. I'm guessing whomever was higher than Snoke on the food chain will be the Big Bad of IX. Maybe the Emperor's head in a container full of fluid?

I hope Rose pulls through. I liked her. Too bad she and Finn were lead around by That Guy From Those Beer Commercials. I know, Benicio del Toro, but I could not remember his name watching. In other news: does anybody give a shit about Phasma? Like, at all? "Oh, look at me! I'm a lady with SHINY Stormtrooper armor!!" Back to the garage from whence you were sent in VII. I know, I'm guessing she has backstory and it's probably kickass, but the character seems like a waste.

I bet Porgs make for good eatin'. Funny to see them give Chewbacca shit about roasting one of their own. Cute lil guys. And the casino mounts and crystal foxes were sweet as well.

Dunno what I'm missing. Anybody else facepalming at the last scene? "Oh, for the love- . . . we don't need to bring the focus back on a little boy!!! I swear, if he says 'Yippee!' or 'wizard' once . . . . grrrrrrrrrr."

ETA: Oh, right, the inexplicable Yoda appearance!! "Awesome. I haven't seen you since after the moon of Endor. Where the hell were you when I was dealing with Ben?!?" "Shut up, young Skywalker must." "Are you jealous that I found a planet better than a damn swamp?" "Across your eyes, I will smack you."

[starri]

Luke made the same mistake as his father.  He was so afraid of something, he made an act of desperation to prevent it, and ended up causing the thing after all.

[Morrigan2575]

14 minutes ago, starri said:

Luke made the same mistake as his father.  He was so afraid of something, he made an act of desperation to prevent it, and ended up causing the thing after all.

That's an excellent observation. I did not pick that up.

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, SNeaker said:

I feel like I keep seeing some variation of this:

Critics: The Last Jedi is an awesome movie because it takes everything about Star Wars and turns it on its head! Burns it to the ground! Completely destroys what you loved and what you believed and tells you all your theories meant nothing! It's a big "fuck you!" to the audience!

Media: Fans don't seem to like The Last Jedi and we can't figure out why.

Hmmm, I think the central theme is letting go of the past and moving forward into the future, rather than destroying what was loved.  I haven't read too many critics reviews, but if that's what they're saying, I didn't see that.  But letting go of the past is sometimes damn hard, for characters and for fans.  

[scarynikki12]

1 hour ago, The Kings Foot said:

Rey. - because now she's been through the temptation of the dark side and found it empty and without answers. She was always fearful of the power she was conjuring. Now she knows it won't swallow her the way it did Kylo.

Nicely put.

[Frost]

19 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am amazed that more people aren't talking about Mark Hamill's stellar performance in this movie, maybe this jaded Luke is hard to digest. I never gave much thought about Hamill's acting talent, but his portrayal of Luke's disillusionment and despair was outstanding.

I'm wondering if he could get a Best Supporting Actor nod.  He's a main character, but not THE main character.  I'd say that is Rey.

[ulkis]

I think there's a difference between "letting go of the past" and "oh by the way, the characters from the original trilogy failed at pretty much everything they wanted to do."

Does anyone know how the sequel trilogy is written? is there a general outline the writers for each episode have to follow or does the writer for each episode choose the way it goes? I was just wondering because I saw a lot of posts talking about dropped threads from TFA.

Edited December 18, 2017 by ulkis