Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

iirc Poe doesn't know about the plan until he wakes up on the transport ship with Leia, though, and by that point Finn and Rose have already been captured (Poe gets stunned by Leia and Finn/Rose get captured by the First Order at basically the same moment).

My personal fanwank is that DJ had cottoned onto the fact that the bracelet was important somehow, told the First Order it was important, and they tinkered with it enough to figure out what it was and how it worked. Or maybe he grabbed it when they were stunned and tinkered with it himself and then sold it once he knew it was of value. Either way, once you know what the bracelet's for, it's a pretty easy leap to make that you should point it at the Resistance ships and see what happens.... It's a bit of a plot hole, I agree, but some reviews have talked about it like it's some massive gaping hole in the narrative and I don't think it's that either. It's easy enough to fanwank away.

Poe doesn't know about the plan to hide on the planet that was an old base. He does know that Holder's plan was to escape in the transport ships, that's what fuels his mutiny because the transports had no shields or weapons.

I believe there's a scene where he tells Finn about it, when Finn/Rose/Fenster are on their way to board the Command Ship. I remember that being one of my first complaints that if the whole Finn/Rose side question didn't happen the Resistance wouldn't have been decimated at the end.

[caracas1914]

Isn’t the counter to the Finn/Rose adventure being all wasted death/futility  that the orphan kids were inspired by their adventures, including the one kid who was given hope specifically by contacting with the Resistance and being revealed as having a strong connection with the force at such a young age?

Besides I’m expecting the Fathiers (those racehorse/greyhound type creatures ) to reappear and help the Rebellion.

[secnarf]

7 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

Isn’t the counter to the Finn/Rose adventure being all wasted death/futility  that the orphan kids were inspired by their adventures, including the one kid who was given hope specifically by contacting with the Resistance and being revealed as having a strong connection with the force at such a young age?

Besides I’m expecting the Fathiers (those racehorse/greyhound type creatures ) to reappear and help the Rebellion.

Those kids already knew about the resistance, though. They were talking about Luke at the end, not Finn and Rose.

And there's no way that kid is "young" if 9yo Anakin was "too old" to train, according to Yoda.

I disliked the entire Finn/Rose plot, but I am holding off judgement to see if it ultimately becomes relevant to the overall plot. As it stands now, however, I have a hard time seeing how it could possibly be relevant to the next movie, and I do not think it added anything to this one.

[Morrigan2575]

28 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

Isn’t the counter to the Finn/Rose adventure being all wasted death/futility  that the orphan kids were inspired by their adventures, including the one kid who was given hope specifically by contacting with the Resistance and being revealed as having a strong connection with the force at such a young age?

Besides I’m expecting the Fathiers (those racehorse/greyhound type creatures ) to reappear and help the Rebellion.

That's the in story counter but, I don't think it makes up for it. The whole thing didn't work for me and, I don't feel the payoff was effective. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[VCRTracking]

7 hours ago, doram said:

By your own analysis, ALIAS is a gender reversal of the classic woman-gets-stuffed-in-the-fridge to motivate her husband/lover/father. Danny (Sydney's fiance) has no function in the story other than to motivate her. He was going to be a doctor - insert-awwww-GIF! He asked her grumpy father to marry her - insert-hearts-eyes-GIF. This beautiful, perfect, flawless, reproach-less two-dimensional paragon of a man (wow, doesn't that sound familiar?) that we learn nothing more of because there's nothing more to tell. It was never his story. He exists simply to be murdered brutally for Sydney to start her journey - insert-tears-fury-Kill-Bill-GIF. 

And in the end, who is really the most important relationship in ALIAS? Not Sydney/Vaughn (eventual OTP). Not Sydney/Sloane (her nemesis). Not even Sydney/Jack (her father). The most important person in the show to Sydney is Irina Derevkho. 

Yes the climax of the ALIAS finale was Sydney against Irina because she was someone she was close to and had a complicated relationship with. Not against Arvin Sloan the man who had her fiancee killed and whom Sydney never stopped hating throughout the series. The final confrontation for Sydney was against her mother because it had the highest emotional stakes for her. She doesn't want to fight or kill her but she HAS to. Their ultimate confrontation Rey can't fight Kylo in the end motivated out of revenge and the anger like in TFA. All the previous final chapter of the trilogy had deep bond between the combatants. Obi-Wan fought Anakin were friends and "brothers" Vader and Luke in ROTJ were father and son.

*ETA the best male relationship for Sydney below her father was Marshall IMO.

Edited December 29, 2017 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

. Without TLJ Rey could kill Kylo in the end motivated out of revenge and the anger like TFA but where's the emotional stakes?

What are the emotional stakes now? They had a mental bond that was induced by an evil, outside person for less than a day (I think... I've only seen the movie once and don't intend to rewatch it but didn't the whole thing take place in the longest 18 hours ever?). Rey briefly thought Kylo might have good in him because of an ambiguous vision and learned that nope, her first opinion that he was a complete sociopath is the right one.

That's actually one of my biggest problems with The Last Jedi. It's left both characters and plot in this dead end space. Where is there left to go that will be interesting or satisfying? We don't know anything more at the movie's end about the First Order/Resistance/New Republic than we knew when it started (I actually feel like I managed to know less!). We have an expanded collection of characters but they have few ties between them. Rey and Kylo are theoretically the central characters as the lead protagonist and lead antagonist, but they have their relationship with each other and then one supporting character (Rey with Finn and Kylo with Hux). I love the idea of Rose, but I have no idea what on earth she can do in the next movie. I feel like TFA failed to establish her as anything other than a random adventure buddy for Finn. 

[VCRTracking]

11 hours ago, doram said:

I brought up ALIAS to make a point about how it was a story written about a female hero that didn't end up being subverted to be a man's story where she acts as his prop. That's where I stop. I don't even know how to begin to parse the concept of equating Irina Derevkho to Kylo, or comparing the relationship Sydney her with Irina to Rey's "Force-bond" with Kylo. 

I'm not equating them I'm just saying Rey there has to be personal conflict in the final fight. Also ALIAS was all about Sydney. The story of the sequels seems to be about a female hero who gets involved late in someone else's long running drama. She's basically Rachel Gibson(who did have sex with Sark and was tortured by him!)

11 hours ago, doram said:

No, that would be (spoilers for a decade-old show)

Yeah I was kidding about the Marshall thing.

Edited December 29, 2017 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 4:45 PM, doram said:

I never watched Felicity so I'll agree to disagree (people whose opinion I value would argue that your analysis is an oversimplification) but I don't even need to have been an ALIAS fanatic back in the day (I was) to see how that statement alone is a point for JJ's portrayal of female characters, not against.

By your own analysis, ALIAS is a gender reversal of the classic woman-gets-stuffed-in-the-fridge to motivate her husband/lover/father. Danny (Sydney's fiance) has no function in the story other than to motivate her. He was going to be a doctor - insert-awwww-GIF! He asked her grumpy father to marry her - insert-hearts-eyes-GIF. This beautiful, perfect, flawless, reproach-less two-dimensional paragon of a man (wow, doesn't that sound familiar?) that we learn nothing more of because there's nothing more to tell. It was never his story. He exists simply to be murdered brutally for Sydney to start her journey - insert-tears-fury-Kill-Bill-GIF. 

And in the end, who is really the most important relationship in ALIAS? Not Sydney/Vaughn (eventual OTP). Not Sydney/Sloane (her nemesis). Not even Sydney/Jack (her father). The most important person in the show to Sydney is Irina Derevkho. 

I can't remember whether it was here or somewhere else I wrote this but basically, JJ Abrams made Sydney Luke Skywalker, complete with Darth Mutter (and long lost sibling!). The entire show is built around the relationship between these two women and how they reflect their lives.

I'm not saying ALIAS is flawless, or even that JJ is. At the very least, he has an irritating habit of starting projects and getting bored, and leaving them to other (lesser) people to finish off. But if there's one show you do not cite as an example of a "A Story About A Woman That Is Really About A Man" ... it's that one.

Rian did the ALIAS equivalent of watching Sark torture Sydney, and deciding to "Explore That" by having the two of them date, and making Sark the star of the show. 

Agreed.  Sydney was a great character and the whole avenging her fiancé thing kind of fell by the wayside early on.  

Edited January 2, 2018 by benteen

[ChelseaNH]

20 hours ago, secnarf said:

I disliked the entire Finn/Rose plot, but I am holding off judgement to see if it ultimately becomes relevant to the overall plot.

Is plot the only thing that matters?  The Cantu Bight digression shows us/Finn what the Resistance is fighting for rather than what they're fighting against.  I don't recall that we've seen that on-screen before.

[caracas1914]

I guess some of us just have to agree to disagree to what’s “superfluous “.  It was a sequence where the new Star Wars trilogy universe demonstrated the impact of the New Order on common citizens on a scale that showed why folks like Rose and her sister would join the resistance.  

 

On that same note, it would have been great to have had an early scene between Rose and her bomber pilot sister, even if it didn’t move the plot.

Edited December 29, 2017 by caracas1914

[secnarf]

8 hours ago, benteen said:

Agreed.  Sydney was a great character and the whole avenging her fiancé thing kind of fell by the waist side early on.  

Thank you (or autocorrect!) for the laugh!

1 hour ago, ChelseaNH said:

Is plot the only thing that matters?  The Cantu Bight digression shows us/Finn what the Resistance is fighting for rather than what they're fighting against.  I don't recall that we've seen that on-screen before.

I don't need to see what they are fighting for, nor do I think that plot did a good job showing it. I can inherently appreciate that a state of peace is preferable to a state of war. If that is what they were trying to show, then I don't think it was time well-spent.

Every time we were shown Finn/Rose's storyline, I was wondering what was happening elsewhere. I felt like those scenes interrupted the flow/momentum of the rest of the story, without adding anything.

I also disliked Rose, which could be colouring my opinion. I was actually rooting for her to kamikaze into the bomber at the end, instead of Finn. Then, when she stopped Finn, I was expecting her injuries to be fatal. She came off as kind of nuts in her first scene with Finn, and I don't think she ever really recovered from that. I wasn't invested in her. Couple that with a storyline that does not have an obvious relevance to the rest of the story, and I just wasn't interested.

Edited December 29, 2017 by secnarf

[SnoGirl]

4 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

IOn that same note, it would have been great to have had an early scene between Rose and her bomber pilot sister, even if it didn’t move the plot.

It would have been great, but the movie opened on Poe yanking Hux’s chain. A small flashback would have been nice.

Ps. This is the second movie that has opened with Poe being a smart ass to someone in the First Order. Should we assume the next movie will do the same? I sure hope it does...

4 hours ago, secnarf said:

I also disliked Rose, which could be colouring my opinion. I was actually rooting for her to kamikaze into the bomber at the end, instead of Finn. Then, when she stopped Finn, I was expecting her injuries to be fatal. She came off as kind of nuts in her first scene with Finn, and I don't think she ever really recovered from that. I wasn't invested in her. Couple that with a storyline that does not have an obvious relevance to the rest of the story, and I just wasn't interested.

I like fangirl Rose. Rey was just as excited Rose in the first movie when she met Solo. Plus, we saw her grow from a behind the scenes rebel, to one willing to actually put her life on the line for the resistence. 

My favorite moment this movie came from talking to my younger male cousin. One of the first things he said to me was how he noticed females everywhere. He loved seeing them as pilots, as fighters. It gave me a huge smile, he’s so young I couldnt believe he noticed. Representation matters, for everyone.

[Zuleikha]

 It was a sequence where the new Star Wars trilogy universe demonstrated the impact of the New Order on common citizens on a scale that showed why folks like Rose and her sister would join the resistance.

I got a much better understanding of that from the opening sequence of The Force Awakens, where I was shown it. I'm not actually sure what TLJ gave me. Rose's family was killed and there was something with her mining planet, but again I already saw the massacre at the opening of TFA and the destruction of the Hosnian system.  The kids on Canto Bight were enslaved? Except I thought Canto Bight was explicitly a neutral territory rather than a First-Order-governed planet, so the First Order's not responsible for that. Or was it that neutral territories can also suck? Because that's definitely not a new concept for the  Star Wars universe either.

One of the first things he said to me was how he noticed females everywhere. He loved seeing them as pilots, as fighters. It gave me a huge smile, he’s so young I couldnt believe he noticed.

That was my favorite thing about TLJ. No sarcasm. The Force Awakens was decent, but The Last Jedi was even better. I'm really curious at whether it hit parity for background characters. It's such an easy step for movies to take and it makes such a big difference.

[VCRTracking]

I am sad though that a lot of Resistance members that were briefly seen in TFA were likely killed in TLJ: Greg Grunberg, Ken Leung, that nice medic with the British accent who told Chewie "You must be so brave."

8 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

On 12/28/2017 at 3:37 PM, secnarf said:

I disliked the entire Finn/Rose plot, but I am holding off judgement to see if it ultimately becomes relevant to the overall plot.

Is plot the only thing that matters?  The Cantu Bight digression shows us/Finn what the Resistance is fighting for rather than what they're fighting against.  I don't recall that we've seen that on-screen before.

The only reason it feels unnecessary is because the mission failed. It it had succeeded people wouldn't question it.

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The only reason it feels unnecessary is because the mission failed. It it had succeeded people wouldn't question it.

I don't think that's all there is to it.  Poe also failed miserably and I still think his scenes were less irritating.  I think part of it is that while everything was obviously interconnected there were three main threads - Luke/Rey, Kylo, and the Resistance running.  However, because Finn/Rose went off on their own while Poe stuck around on the ship we got too much airtime for the Resistance running and that was the least interesting of the threads.  We could have gotten to the endpoint (Finn isn't all about Rey, Poe learns to curb his maverick tendencies, Rose proves herself, the Resistance gets mostly wiped out) in a more efficient way while either cutting run time or giving us more of the other, more interesting parts.

[Danny Franks]

20 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Is plot the only thing that matters?  The Cantu Bight digression shows us/Finn what the Resistance is fighting for rather than what they're fighting against.  I don't recall that we've seen that on-screen before.

I think you're right, there. The movies have been good at showing us the goodness that the Rebellion/Resistance was fighting for, through the characters but they never really showed us the people, or the worlds, that would be better without the Empire in charge.

I don't think the prequels managed it, because their vision of Coruscant apparently changed not one bit, from The Phantom Menace to the inserted scene at the end of ROTJ. As has been observed before, it looks like you could live your life without ever caring whether the Republic or the Empire was in charge. 

Although Canto Bight wasn't the result of Imperial or First Order oppression, but of the rich and privileged profiting off the backs of everyone else. Which is the most contemporary analogy to date, in the world of Star Wars. In this case, the rich people were war profiteers, and in our world corporations make billions from a far more diverse range of sources. But the message is the same: Such stark inequality is disgusting, no matter the cause.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Danny Franks

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I think you're right, there. The movies have been good at showing us the goodness that the Rebellion/Resistance was fighting for, through the characters but they never really showed us the people, or the worlds, that would be better without the Empire in charge.

I don't think the prequels managed it, because their vision of Coruscant apparently changed not one bit, from The Phantom Menace to the inserted scene at the end of ROTJ. As has been observed before, it looks like you could live your life without ever caring whether the Republic or the Empire was in charge. 

I also think in Episode I if they showed that the people of Naboo were "suffering and dying" under Trade Federation occupation instead of just having old Sio Bibble(yeah I still know his name) tell us via hologram there'd be less complaints that The Phantom Menace was "about taxes".

[afterbite]

I don't actually think I needed to see how the First Order was oppressing people in order to understand that living under their regime was not good. In the first movie, I watched them literally blow up several worlds. 

The revelation of the military industrial complex after Canto Blight, which I will not really complain about because of my hatred for its real world analogue, still left me a bit blah. The First Order has a systematic program for creating armies of child soldiers. I have to figure they've either privatized some of their armaments making or that they have a generally mutually beneficial relationship with their top producers where everyone's palms get greased. From what I've seen of the Resistance, their market share of weapons of war is probably pretty tiny, but even if it wasn't, are they supposed to sit around and consider the implications of lining the pockets of merchants of death as opposed to taking on the regime that likes to blow up whole planets? In essence, what is this prompt for reflection really supposed to make me reflect upon, given the time and place in which it was deployed.

Also, because it consistently irritates me every time I think about TLJ, let me just officially say how much I hated the end sequence with the boy who uses the Force to call upon his broom and then ends up silhouetted with it in his hand like a lightsaber. I felt like I'd accidentally stumbled into the last few minutes of an Oliver Twist musical with that bit of cheese and would have greatly preferred for the movie to end about a minute earlier, when they were recounting the legend of Luke Skywalker. It's a trivial thing, perhaps, but gah, so irritating.

[Zuleikha]

In essence, what is this prompt for reflection really supposed to make me reflect upon, given the time and place in which it was deployed.

Yes, this!

. I felt like I'd accidentally stumbled into the last few minutes of an Oliver Twist musical with that bit of cheese and would have greatly preferred for the movie to end about a minute earlier, when they were recounting the legend of Luke Skywalker.

I also feel like that moment would have made more sense if I had any over all narrative in which to place it. We already know (or should know) that Force sensitive people are still scattered throughout the galaxy, both because that's what canon has always been and because the kids at Luke's failed Jedi Academy came from somewhere. But at this point, we don't know of anyone who cares about them. As far as we know, the First Order has no organized program for trying to find and train Force Sensitive kids to the Dark Side. Rey didn't appear to end The Last Jedi with a mission of finding other Force sensitive people and training them (and is still basically untrained herself, although she seems to be so strong that she doesn't need it). So that kid is currently set up to just be a different version of Leia--someone who will intuitively use the Force at random moments but won't be intentional.

[johntfs]

44 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

I also feel like that moment would have made more sense if I had any over all narrative in which to place it. We already know (or should know) that Force sensitive people are still scattered throughout the galaxy, both because that's what canon has always been and because the kids at Luke's failed Jedi Academy came from somewhere. But at this point, we don't know of anyone who cares about them. As far as we know, the First Order has no organized program for trying to find and train Force Sensitive kids to the Dark Side. Rey didn't appear to end The Last Jedi with a mission of finding other Force sensitive people and training them (and is still basically untrained herself, although she seems to be so strong that she doesn't need it). So that kid is currently set up to just be a different version of Leia--someone who will intuitively use the Force at random moments but won't be intentional.

I just finished binging season one of Jessica Jones.  I also can't help  but recall this exchange from TLJ:

Luke Skywalker: What do you know about the force?

Rey: It's a power that Jedi have that lets them control people and... make things float.

Luke Skywalker: Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong.

One of the slang terms for mind control/influence is "The Jedi Mind Trick."  So, consider that the Force has "awakened" with all these people around the galaxy suddenly being able to do things that Jedi and Sith required extensive training to do.  You could easily get a situation where a newfound "Force prodigy" in "the Jedi Mind Trick" would using mind control to carve a swath of pain and terror through the galaxy.  And neither side has anything in place to prevent that.  Bad as he was, Palpatine had a force in place to track down rogue Force users, but as far as we know The New Republic, Resistance and First Order have nothing like that.  

[Browncoat]

I work in a school, and I really want one of the teachers to write, "Every word in that sentence was wrong." on a student's test.

[phalange]

First of all, I'm proud that I somehow managed to avoid every spoiler for this, which was no easy feat. I loved every scene with Leia, including when she used the force to bring herself back to the ship. I cried during Leia and Luke's last scene together ("No one is ever really gone"), and also at the dedication to Carrie Fisher during the credits. I trust they'll do the right thing, whatever that is, for her and her character in the next movie. 

I have zero complaints about Luke's characterization, and honestly, who doesn't feel like escaping to a deserted island these days? His scenes with Rey were great, and there was a bit of humor with him tapping her hand with the leaf. Yoda's appearance was an unexpected treat. Of course, one of the best parts of the movie was him trolling Kylo Ren astro-projecting during the final battle. I was surprised that he died at the end, but he went out a hero, and at peace.

Rey showing up in the Falcon with Chewie was awesome, and I love that Chewie apparently adopted some Porgs, who are seriously the cutest things ever. Are they basically there to sell merchandise? Probably. Am I going to buy some Porg merchandise? Yep. I did have to laugh, though, when the ship made a sharp turn and the poor Porg ended up against the window. Rey moving the rocks to clear the tunnel was a nice callback to her earlier scene with Luke, and I cackled when she essentially slammed the door in Kylo Ren's face. 

The scene when the sound briefly stopped gave me goosebumps, it was so well done. And I may have teared up at the end, seeing the kids tell the story of Luke Skywalker, and the little boy wearing the ring with the Rebel symbol, looking up at the sky. 

[ChelseaNH]

On 12/29/2017 at 3:50 PM, doram said:

The plot matters

That doesn't answer my question.  (And I was entertained.  Chacun a son gout.)

[Crs97]

Quote

and I love that Chewie apparently adopted some Porgs

Or is keeping his next meal fresh. 

[afterbite]

18 hours ago, phalange said:

I love that Chewie apparently adopted some Porgs, who are seriously the cutest things ever. Are they basically there to sell merchandise?

Apparently, the porgs were created because there were a ton of puffins on the island where they filmed those sections. They couldn't keep them out of shots and it was too expensive to try to erase them, so they turned them into porgs. I approve of this repurposing also.

[katie9918]

Seriously, there are those seriously concerned about misogyny in this film?

 

Other than Luke and Rey (and he’s a generation older than she is, so that would be more of a reverse ageism thing than misogyny), the females were right and the males were wrong. 

 

Someone please explain to me where there was misogyny in this film.

[Browncoat]

12 hours ago, afterbite said:

Apparently, the porgs were created because there were a ton of puffins on the island where they filmed those sections. They couldn't keep them out of shots and it was too expensive to try to erase them, so they turned them into porgs. I approve of this repurposing also.

I noticed birds flying around the island in the long shots, and wondered if they were actually puffins that couldn't be erased (there were A LOT of them).  Thanks for this info!

[VCRTracking]

Speaking of, here are details about the FX for the other island's residents:
Bringing One of Star Wars: The Last Jedi's Weirdest New Creatures to Life Sounds Like It Was a Nightmare

Man, compared to that the puppeteers inside Jabba the Hutt in Return of the Jedi had it easy!

[Lantern7]

With the talk of Jabba, Chewie and weird stuff, I might as well share this comic from Penny Arcade welcoming the new year,

[Oreo2234]

Quote

Someone please explain to me where there was misogyny in this film

I've seen complaints that Rey's development being to tied to Kylo and/or that Kylo overshadows Rey. I've also even seen some film critics/commentators say that Kylo is arguably the film's true protagonist so they may have a point there. 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Oreo2234

[VCRTracking]

7 minutes ago, Oreo2234 said:

I've seen complaints that Rey's development being to tied to Kylo and/or that Kylo overshadows Rey. I've even seen some film critics/commentators argue say that Kylo is argubly the film's true protagonist so they may have a point there. 

I don't think Kylo a protagonist. I think he's an antagonist but he's also the most complex and fleshed out antagonist in all the Star Wars movies. Daisy, John Boyega and Oscar Isaac when asked what other character in the movie they would want to play they all said Kylo Ren.

Edited January 1, 2018 by VCRTracking

[caracas1914]

I thought the TLJ did a good job of explaining why Luke slinked off to the remote planet becoming a recluse.

Considering his family’s background, Ben Solo’s turning to the dark side , who was also his beloved sister’s son in his care, made him question everything about being a “ Jedi Master.”  It shook everything about what he stood for.

Luke can be a whiny character at times in the original trilogy but in this film he finally got some tragic gravitas.

Edited January 1, 2018 by caracas1914

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Oreo2234 said:

I've seen complaints that Rey's development being to tied to Kylo and/or that Kylo overshadows Rey. I've also even seen some film critics/commentators say that Kylo is arguably the film's true protagonist so they may have a point there. 

Exactly. The Last Jedi, like Supergirl Season 2, is a good example of a movie that thinks it's about a woman but is really about a man. Rey gets no forward character development of her own; she is reduced to being a catalyst for Ren's character development (and occasionally Luke's). And tbh, she gets written as an idiot and pretty OOC to accommodate being Ren's catalyst.

And in fact, you could make that argument about most of the female characters in TLJ. Rose exists to teach Finn why the Resistance matters, so he can become a True Believer by the movie's end. Holdo exists to teach Poe a Very Special Lesson on why being an impulsive, arrogant hotshot is bad, so he can be ready to be a leader at the end. Honestly, the only female character that is in the driver's seat of her own story in TLJ is Leia, which is probably why I thought her character was the best thing about the movie.

I liked TLJ, don't get me wrong, but it's not nearly as progressive with regards to gender as it likes to believe it is.

[VCRTracking]

30 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Exactly. The Last Jedi, like Supergirl Season 2, is a good example of a movie that thinks it's about a woman but is really about a man. Rey gets no forward character development of her own; she is reduced to being a catalyst for Ren's character development (and occasionally Luke's). And tbh, she gets written as an idiot and pretty OOC to accommodate being Ren's catalyst.

And in fact, you could make that argument about most of the female characters in TLJ. Rose exists to teach Finn why the Resistance matters, so he can become a True Believer by the movie's end. Holdo exists to teach Poe a Very Special Lesson on why being an impulsive, arrogant hotshot is bad, so he can be ready to be a leader at the end. Honestly, the only female character that is in the driver's seat of her own story in TLJ is Leia, which is probably why I thought her character was the best thing about the movie.

I liked TLJ, don't get me wrong, but it's not nearly as progressive with regards to gender as it likes to believe it is.

If it was the other way around and you had male characters who exist to teach female characters lessons and there would be complaints that the women they had to learn from men too.

31 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Exactly. The Last Jedi, like Supergirl Season 2, is a good example of a movie that thinks it's about a woman but is really about a man. Rey gets no forward character development of her own; she is reduced to being a catalyst for Ren's character development (and occasionally Luke's). And tbh, she gets written as an idiot and pretty OOC to accommodate being Ren's catalyst.

 I disagree. It's about Rey learning that it doesn't matter who her parents are and that it's not important for her to be "somebody". Also her naivete and her wanting a connection is what drives her to do the things she does.

[wingster55]

3 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

Luke can be a whiny character at times in the original trilogy but in this film he finally got some tragic gravitas.

To the Star Wars movies thread. 

[Sandman]

On 12/30/2017 at 5:53 PM, johntfs said:

So that kid is currently set up to just be a different version of Leia--someone who will intuitively use the Force at random moments but won't be intentional.

I'm not sure we can say after this movie that Leia's use of the Force is without intention. Or random, either, really.

And I'm not altogether convinced that leaving the Force-sensitive at this point in the story without training of one kind or the other -- without having a dichotomy between good and evil -- is necessarily a failure, either of plot or of in-universe ethics. Maybe something needs to change radically about the training before the next generation can begin. I think Luke's comments to Rey about the balance at the heart of the Force is more like the Tao than the Dark Side / Light Side Manichaeist structure that we've seen up to now in the series. (Although I might be influenced by my recent re-reading of the Earthsea cycle here.) I could see Rey's further development in understanding what the Force means and what her place in the universe is as a big part of the next (last?) installment.

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Exactly. The Last Jedi, like Supergirl Season 2, is a good example of a movie that thinks it's about a woman but is really about a man. Rey gets no forward character development of her own; she is reduced to being a catalyst for Ren's character development (and occasionally Luke's). And tbh, she gets written as an idiot and pretty OOC to accommodate being Ren's catalyst.

I would have liked more screentime for Rey, and less for Kylo Ren, I have to say. But that's coloured by my personal view that I need no  more character development to say he's an irredeemable villain. But sadly, plenty of people did, and somehow still seem to think he's going to be the hero in the end (a lot of them seem to hold that view because they insist on a straight, white guy being the hero). However, this is the middle part of a trilogy, and we need a compelling villain. Kylo Ren is still a scared, hateful little boy. He didn't learn or change much in this movie. He killed another mentor/father figure, in Snoke, and was shamed by Luke. He inherited the First Order, by virtue of his Force abilities, but I don't see any loyalty from anyone, towards him.

But I don't agree that Rey gets no forward development.

At the beginning of this movie, she's the naive girl who's desperate for Luke to tell her how everything works, to make her a Jedi and save the Resistance, to tell her who her parents are. She's looking for the easy answer, the saviour figure that we're told to expect in these stories. And then when Luke is a dick, and has no intention of helping, she finds another potential saviour figure, in Ben Solo. She connects with him and he spins her a few lines about how he can help her, he can accept her and they can find answers together. And she thinks, 'well, maybe he's really just a sensitive soul, who needs love and support, to be good again'. So she goes off to bring him back to the light, because Luke isn't prepared to be the hero that she thinks the Resistance needs.

Only, she was missing one important person, when she was looking for someone to represent hope and become a figurehead for the Resistance. Herself.

By the time she faces Snoke, and realises Kylo Ren is not the person she hoped he was, she's ready to step up. And the next time we see her, she's swooping in like Han Solo, drawing away the First Order TIE Fighters. Then she's moving a wall of rocks like it's nothing, to provide the Resistance survivors with their escape route. She saves the Resistance, as much as Luke does. Without Rey, they all still die, trapped inside that mine. For all that one of the messages of this movie seems to be that singular heroics and idols are bad, we have Rey proving that there are exceptions.

[Danny Franks]

8 minutes ago, doram said:

Rey was already ready to step up in TFA when given a choice to run away with Finn, she chose to stick to Han and the Resistance/Rebellion. TLJ basically undoes her characterisation from the first movie, and then puts her back exactly where she was at the end of TFA, and all for what? Not to service Rey's story, oh no. It's to service Kylo's and Luke's to a lesser extent (but then again, Luke's story in TLJ is in service to Kylo's so it really all goes back to Kylo). 

Rey was ready to fight for the Resistance. And that's what she thought she was doing, by going to find Luke. Furthering the cause by getting the big damn hero to come back. Even when she's was running off to meet up with Kylo Ren, she wasn't abandoning the Resistance, or having doubts, she was doing it because she thought Kylo Ren could be the figurehead for them. But now, she's going to be the big damn hero. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Danny Franks

[raven]

18 minutes ago, doram said:

Rey was already ready to step up in TFA when given a choice to run away with Finn, she chose to stick to Han and the Resistance/Rebellion. TLJ basically undoes her characterisation from the first movie, and then puts her back exactly where she was at the end of TFA, and all for what? Not to service Rey's story, oh no. It's to service Kylo's and Luke's to a lesser extent (but then again, Luke's story in TLJ is in service to Kylo's so it really all goes back to Kylo). 

Rey planned to go back to Jakku, not become a member of the Resistance.  Han asks her to co-pilot with him; not as a Resistance member though since he isn't really one and she says he has to go back to Jakku.  Ren killing Han spurs her to anger (so is Han serving her story?).   It's her grief at losing Han (though she hasn't known him that long) and her force-awakening that causes her to search for Luke, since she believes, like everyone else, that he's the key to winning. 

I don't agree with the Rey driving/Ren driving arguments.  The only interesting thing Kylo has done is kill Snoke (I don't count murdering his father, that's not interesting) but Rey is more interesting and has a wider range of story ahead of her.  She's already moved on from a solitary existence, to delivering a valuable droid, flying the Falcon, showing her friendship/resilience, bonding with Han and Finn, discovering the force, becomes a Resistance member, approaches and argues with Luke and learns from him, faces the worst about herself, mind connection with Kylo, battles the bad guys, doesn't suffer Kylo's foolishness when his motives are revealed, gets her ass back to the main fight and saves everyone.  

I don't usually find villains more interesting; I find conflict and doubts interesting and in the SW universe the villains usually have none of these.  Hence they are predictable (just pick the worst thing and they'll do it).   Kylo kills Snoke, attempts to bring Rey to his side, fails at that, pitches another hissy-fit and loses the last of the Resistance members.  Not nearly as complex as Rey's story IMO.

An argument can made that there's a lot of moving characters from Point A to Point B, though I don't necessarily agree with those either. 

[VCRTracking]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Rey was already ready to step up in TFA when given a choice to run away with Finn, she chose to stick to Han and the Resistance/Rebellion. TLJ basically undoes her characterisation from the first movie, and then puts her back exactly where she was at the end of TFA, and all for what?

I think it's less that "everything goes back to Kylo" it's more her destiny is ultimately linked with Kylo's because he's her opposite. The dark to her light.

18 minutes ago, doram said:

It's to service Kylo's and Luke's to a lesser extent (but then again, Luke's story in TLJ is in service to Kylo's so it really all goes back to Kylo). 

That was already put in place as well as Han's story being "in service" to Kylo so I don't get the complaint about it now.

[raven]

8 minutes ago, doram said:

It's be a long while since I watched TFA, but I'm quite sure that there was a scene before Kylo Ren attacked Maz's planet and kidnapped Rey, where Finn got a job with some smuggling crew and was going to leave Rey, the Resistance, and everything. He asked her to come along and she refused. 

8She also fell in with Finn in the first place because he claimed he was Resistance.

I could be mis-remembering, but she doesn't go with him because they were going to fight, not because she was joining the Resistance.  I do remember her telling Han that she needed to get back to Jakku.

She trusted Finn because he said he was Resistance and BB-8 told her he had to get back to the Resistance.  She thought Finn would help her get BB-8 where he was supposed to go; it's BB-8 she runs into first and she tries to help him.

[Danny Franks]

1 minute ago, raven said:

I could be mis-remembering, but she doesn't go with him because they were in the middle of the fight.  I do remember her telling Han that she needed to back to Jakku.

She trusted Finn because he said he was Resistance and BB-8 told her he had to get back to the Resistance, not because she wanted to join.

She repeatedly insisted that she had to go back to Jakku. When they first escaped in the Falcon, she told Finn they had to go back. When Han offered her a job as his crew member, she said it again. Off the top of my head, I don't recall when she changed her mind, but it wasn't until after they'd visited Maz Kanata, I'm pretty sure.

[raven]

1 minute ago, doram said:

I can't be bothered to re-watch TFA, but I'm sure Maz's saying "the belonging you seek is ahead of you, not behind" was what closed the Jakku chapter for Rey.

But she wants to run away after holding the light saber and seeing the visions.  She becomes directly involved because while she's trying to get BB-8 away, she runs into Kylo, who nabs her because he's sure he can get the map location from her.   At any rate, I'm not really sure so will will defer to your opinion and @Danny Franks saying she changed her mind after visiting Maz.

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Yes?

Much like Ben for Luke. Merlin for Arthur. Dumbledore for Harry Potter. It's the Mentor Occupational Hazard and Rey was the protagonist - in TFA, at least. 

I was being a little facetious :)  It is a standard story but IMO doesn't mean either the mentor or protagonist is diminished, at least in TLJ.  Mileages vary and all that.

[VCRTracking]

39 minutes ago, raven said:

I was being a little facetious :)  It is a standard story but IMO doesn't mean either the mentor or protagonist is diminished, at least in TLJ.  Mileages vary and all that.

Dumbledore is definitely not diminished. He saves Harry a lot in the books and movies before he dies

 

39 minutes ago, raven said:

45 minutes ago, doram said:

I can't be bothered to re-watch TFA, but I'm sure Maz's saying "the belonging you seek is ahead of you, not behind" was what closed the Jakku chapter for Rey.

But she wants to run away after holding the light saber and seeing the visions.  She becomes directly involved because while she's trying to get BB-8 away, she runs into Kylo, who nabs her because he's sure he can get the map location from her.   At any rate, I'm not really sure so will will defer to your opinion and @Danny Franks saying she changed her mind after visiting Maz.

She doesn't even realize she really has the Force until that interrogation scene with Kylo and she suddenly turns the tables on him and can see his thoughts and fears. Then it's like "Well I guess I'll try the Jedi mind trick on a Stormtrooper and see if that works!" Then when the lightsaber goes to her instead of Kylo and she she starts to beat him halfway through their fight in the forest and it shows THIS is the hero for the new trilogy. Kylo has been important to Rey's journey, even more so than Vader was to Luke in the movies. In A New Hope, Luke rescues Leia without even seeing him in the Death Star and that could be any Imperial pilot behind him during the trench run. He first becomes a hero without ever directly confronting Vader while Kylo has always played a part to Rey's development as a hero and it started in The Force Awakens.

Edited January 2, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Morrigan2575]

21 minutes ago, raven said:

I could be mis-remembering, but she doesn't go with him because they were going to fight, not because she was joining the Resistance.  I do remember her telling Han that she needed to get back to Jakku.

She trusted Finn because he said he was Resistance and BB-8 told her he had to get back to the Resistance.  She thought Finn would help her get BB-8 where he was supposed to go; it's BB-8 she runs into first and she tries to help him.

 

17 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

She repeatedly insisted that she had to go back to Jakku. When they first escaped in the Falcon, she told Finn they had to go back. When Han offered her a job as his crew member, she said it again. Off the top of my head, I don't recall when she changed her mind, but it wasn't until after they'd visited Maz Kanata, I'm pretty sure.

I watched TFA a couple weeks ago and we never really have a turn around or proclamation from Rey. 

When they get to Maz's place Rey is still we have to deliver the droid and, I'm going back to Jakku (says it with Han before they meet Maz). When Finn is running away she doesn't understand because at the point (I believe) she thinks he's still part of the resistance. 

After Rey had the force "vision" with Luke's lightsaber Maz tells her (something to the effect) that she (Rey) has always known her family wasn't coming back for her and, the belonging Rey seeks is ahead of her.

After that there's really nothing. Rey runs off into the woods and eventually gets captured. There's no point where Rey decides that she wants to join the resistance or whatever. 

Rey's story for both movies is pretty much what @Danny Franks detailed. She goes in search of Luke because Leia and everyone else in the Resistance believes Luke is the Big Damn Hero needed to save the day.  TLJ moved Rey's story along, she goes from being the seeker to the hero of the story. She'll be the one to stop The First Order and Kylo Ren in Episode 9. Which I guess is also why those Rey/Kylo scenes were necessary, they now have a connection, a brief moment where they saw each others weaknesses/confusion/fear/loneliness. When the final confrontation happens we'll (supposedly) care more about it because there's no a "connection" between them (like Luke/Vader and Obi-Wan/Anakin). 

I don't have a problem with Rey not being a Skywalker/Solo/Kenobi but, I think they needed something more for the Rey/Kylo connection in order to make final fight in Episode 9 payoff. I think (as others have pointed out), a more fulfilling story would have been to have Rey be the youngest student at the Academy. Kylo goes evil, kills a bunch of students and takes others to the Dark Side but, for reasons Kylo can't kill little Rey or turn her dark, so he abandons her on Jakku.  That would have kept with the hints we got in TFA, would have given Rey connections to Kylo and Luke and would have made a lot more sense for why she thought there was still "good inside" of Kylo as well as upped the ante on the final confrontation. 

Sadly that didn't happen

[stealinghome]

Quote

She repeatedly insisted that she had to go back to Jakku. When they first escaped in the Falcon, she told Finn they had to go back. When Han offered her a job as his crew member, she said it again. Off the top of my head, I don't recall when she changed her mind, but it wasn't until after they'd visited Maz Kanata, I'm pretty sure.

imo Rey began to decide to stick with the Resistance/not to go back to Jakku when Han and Finn come to rescue her in TFA, and she fully makes the decision in the ending fight, when she summons the lightsaber and kicks Kylo Ren's ass.

Up to her visit with Maz, Rey is steadfast in insisting that she is going back to Jakku. As @doram notes, Maz spells out for Rey that her family is never coming back and that what she is looking for is ahead of her, not behind--but Rey proceeds to haul ass out to the forest because that's not what she wants to hear and it scares/crushes her. She's not ready to accept that what Maz said is the truth, so she runs away. But before she can make any further decisions, the First Order shows up and Ren knocks her out and abducts her, and everything she does until she runs into Finn and Han is just her trying to escape. So she's kinda in limbo personally/spiritually.

BUT, then Finn and Han show up, and when Finn tells her that he came back for her, you can see the impact on Rey--it's written all over her face. Rey has always wanted someone to come back for her, and finally, Finn is the person who did. The Resistance is who did. So, Rey begins to make up her mind to stick around then, I think, and it's reinforced when Kylo Ren kills Han, the closest thing she's ever had to a father. She wants to take him out then. And to me, Rey calling the lightsaber in the final fight with Ren--and then the moment on the cliff edge where she opens herself up and begins to just destroy him--signals that she's accepted her larger destiny as a player in the game. She's not a kid from Nowhere who can just go back to Nowhere and scavenge parts for the rest of her life. She has to stay with the Resistance to figure out who she is and where she's headed.

Quote

 

But (putting aside witnessing him commit patricide etc), she beat his ass a few days ago in movie-time. With zero training.

Even if she was desperate for a hero, Kylo Ren would still not qualify.

 

This is the problem with the Rey-Ren story for me. I can definitely accept that Rey is looking for someone to help her find her place in the world, tell her who she's supposed to be, etc. TFA left enough breadcrumbs in that direction, so her statement to Luke at the beginning of TLJ--that she needs help knowing who she is and her part in everything, and that she's scared of what's inside her--feels like an organic extension of Rey at the end of TFA. What boggles the mind is after seeing Kylo Ren a) kill a lot of people, b) try to mind-rape Rey herself, c) kill his father and her mentor, d) maim her best friend (and Rey doesn't know that Finn is healed throughout TLJ, so for all she knows Ren is the man who killed her best friend), and e) get his ass beat by her--most of this like twelve hours ago in continuity, mind--that Rey would give him the time of day. TLJ could have done a lot with Rey's character, but the movie turned her into Space Bella Swan or one of those women who writes letters to jailed serial killers, and for what? To make her and Kylo Ren enemies? To make her accept that she has to fight and has to embrace her powers? We were there already at the end of TFA. Like for real, Rey's whole "move the stones" thing at the end of TFA is a total redux of her "summon the lightsaber/open herself to the Force" moments at the end of TFA.

The way more interesting story would've been Rey puzzling through who she is and (I guess) who her parents were on her own, really plumbing the depths of her own soul, being tempted, and standing up to the Dark Side. Let's see Rey conquer her fear of her own power. Let's see Rey be truly tempted and deal with the repercussions. Etc. The starting point for Rey in TLJ was good and the end was in some ways decent enough, but her story went off the rails in the middle.

[raven]

2 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

The way more interesting story would've been Rey puzzling through who she is and (I guess) who her parents were on her own, really plumbing the depths of her own soul, being tempted, and standing up to the Dark Side. Let's see Rey conquer her fear of her own power.

In my opinion, she does do those things.  She is rejected by Luke at first.   She literally faces the dark side on the island.  She is faced with it when Kylo asks her to join him, over and over and she rejects him.

There is no way she is Space Bella Swan (haven't seen those movies, but I get the reference).  She doesn't give up her life for Kylo, she doesn't reject what she knows for him, she is not even tempted to do so because she already has faced the worst.  He can't play that game with her.   She wants to succeed where she thinks Luke failed; she thinks there is good in Kylo because Luke thought so once so she explores the connection; this is important IMO in that she questions her characterization of Kylo as a "monster", which was actually the right one.  

Vader killed how many billions of people and was ultimately turned back to the light, I can understand that Rey would believe she can do the same with Kylo AND that if she does the Resistance will win.  This is key for me she doesn't do it just because she wants to save a boy, she wants to save the Resistance.   That's much more than being "Space Bella Swan".

[Zuleikha]

Someone please explain to me where there was misogyny in this film

Misogyny is probably the wrong word, but I don't think Rian Johnson knew how to write and develop his female characters' stories well. 

Phasma may as well not have been in the movie for all the impact she had, and she was introduced as an important First Order character. Leia got sidelined to enable Poe's plot. Rose is a little hard to analyze because Johnson clearly valued her and wrote her as a significant character in one of the three main storylines. However, her storyline was the weak link, which ended up hurting her. She had a lot of good moments, but she's not established as a character from a story development perspective. Her role in the story is murky, and currently, it seems like she primarily exists to be an alternative romantic interest for Finn (who Johnson also seemed not to know what to do with). Hopefully, that won't be the case in the future. 

Rey is in a similar position. On the surface, Rey got a lot of good material. She had a lot of screentime; she's powerful; she's important to much of the movie; she sort of has character development. But for me, when I think about who really developed and who really changed, it seems clear that she served Kylo's story and Luke's story at the expense of her own. She's pretty much the same character she started the movie as, and her character development was sort of incoherent and included an unnecessary creepy romance element. Her big moment in The Last Jedi is the revelation about her parents, but it's very unclear what that revelation really meant for Rey. I'm of the opinion that it retrod a character beat that had already been better done in The Force Awakens (when Rey summons the light saber, embraces the Force, and beats Kylo Ren. I also think it was executed in a way that makes no sense... really in any way.) Still, even if you think Rey's character changes by the revelation, there's still when you look at what she really does, it's more about the male characters. She facilitates Kylo Ren's big change of killing Snoke and she sort of influences Luke to rejoin the struggle (although R2-D2 has the key impact). Her big moment is mentally slamming the door in Kylo Ren's face, which given the last movie ended with her embracing the Force and defeating Kylo Ren in battle seems like more of a step back than a step forward to me. It also is evidence that Johnson saw Rey's storyline as a romance plot. There's no Rey embracing herself as the hero like there was in TFA--she is not the one who goes to the confrontation with Kylo; that's Luke.

(While part of that is because it would be too repetitive of The Force Awakens, that's also the problem with what Rian Johnson set up. The big climax is about Luke and Kylo Ren and is derivative of The Force Awakens.)

Finally, there's Holdo. Holdo's storyline is another that's on the surface okay, and I do give Johnson credit for having an older, strong female character whose femininity is not downplayed. It's a mixed bag for me. The negative aspect comes from yes, Holdo is shown to be "right" and Poe was "wrong." But Holdo's rightness is ultimately in service of Poe's story and not her own. The storyline's ultimate purpose is to justify Poe becoming leader of the Resistance, and Poe is never required to atone or even really apologize for the many deaths his sedition caused. You can find many fans arguing that Holdo was in the wrong for not sharing her plan with Poe. IMHO, that is clearly not the movie's POV, but it's a sign of how much Johnson downplayed the seriousness of Poe's screw ups that people can reasonably make that argument. Poe's being wrong ultimately doesn't matter for Poe because it doesn't cost him anything. This is also another missed moment for Rose because Poe is responsible for Rose's sister's death and that link between the two characters is left untouched.

 I can definitely accept that Rey is looking for someone to help her find her place in the world, tell her who she's supposed to be, etc.

I can't. The whole point of the end of TFA was that Rey accepted herself as the one who needed to stop Kylo Ren. That is why she went to Luke--to find an acceptable teacher. She wasn't looking for him to tell her who she was or what she was supposed to be beyond the general sense of yes, she was looking for him to teach her how to be a better wielder of the Force. And going to Luke instead of returning to Jakku showed that Rey had also accepted what Maz Kanata told her.

...-most of this like twelve hours ago in continuity, mind--that Rey would give him the time of day

But so much yes! to this point. The whole Kylo/Rey plot was ridiculous because it relied on Rey being emotionally desperate in a way that she simply wasn't established as being in TFA. She was naive, yes, but not romantically desperate.

And I'm not altogether convinced that leaving the Force-sensitive at this point in the story without training of one kind or the other -- without having a dichotomy between good and evil -- is necessarily a failure, either of plot or of in-universe ethics.

If the intention of this movie was to clearly advance the idea that there needs to be a change in how the Force is wielded from the old ways, I think it dropped the ball on communicating that. I expected and wanted that to be part of the story, but didn't Luke even imply that Rey would continue on the Jedi tradition with his "every word of that sentence was wrong" line to Kylo Ren? 

[VCRTracking]

6 hours ago, stealinghome said:

What boggles the mind is after seeing Kylo Ren a) kill a lot of people, b) try to mind-rape Rey herself, c) kill his father and her mentor, d) maim her best friend (and Rey doesn't know that Finn is healed throughout TLJ, so for all she knows Ren is the man who killed her best friend), and e) get his ass beat by her--most of this like twelve hours ago in continuity, mind--that Rey would give him the time of day.

She hadn't actually seen Kylo Ren kill a lot of people.

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Quote

...-most of this like twelve hours ago in continuity, mind--that Rey would give him the time of day

But so much yes! to this point. The whole Kylo/Rey plot was ridiculous because it relied on Rey being emotionally desperate in a way that she simply wasn't established as being in TFA. She was naive, yes, but not romantically desperate.

I don't think she was "romantically desperate" but she was emotionally desperate. She knew Han for a day and suddenly she's the father she "never had" and had an extreme emotional reaction to his death. As StealingHome said Finn was her "best friend" but she knew him for a day too. Yet even at the end of TFA when they get back to the Resistance base Chewie's the one who sees the comatose Finn gets medical attention while she hugs Leia, a woman she's never met(that moment BTW is never earned but the moment between them at the end of TLJ is.)

 

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I can't. The whole point of the end of TFA was that Rey accepted herself as the one who needed to stop Kylo Ren. That is why she went to Luke--to find an acceptable teacher. She wasn't looking for him to tell her who she was or what she was supposed to be beyond the general sense of yes, she was looking for him to teach her how to be a better wielder of the Force. And going to Luke instead of returning to Jakku showed that Rey had also accepted what Maz Kanata told her.

Rey says none of that at the end of The Force Awakens. Never is it stated she "alone" has to stop Kylo. I also don't think all those Resistance members who gathered to see her off were there hoping she would go train with Luke. She was going there initially to bring him back which is what she says in The Last Jedi.

Looking at the recent comments of the final scene from The Force Awakens on YouTube is hilarious. There are outraged fans saying how The Last Jedi ruined that "epic ending" and not continuing what Abrams had filmed. They didn't pay that much attention to the scene Abrams shot. Luke wants NO PART of that lightsaber.

The major criticisms of this movie from fans is that the characters they love were acting in ways they can't accept. They did things that were "out of character" but when you actually look at their past actions what they do in TLJ does fit even though it's not what some people wanted from them.

Edited January 2, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

Rey says none of that at the end of The Force Awakens. Never is it stated she "alone" has to stop Kylo. I also don't think all those Resistance members who gathered to see her off were there hoping she would go train with Luke. She was going there initially to bring him back which is what she says in The Last Jedi.

It's shown throughout the sequencing of the Kylo/Rey fight... where first she accepts the lightsaber and then she accepts the Force. Ridley's acting with her face and body language are amazing in that fight scene. That acceptance is why she goes to get Luke instead of returning to Jakku. The fight scene does explicitly go through the Kylo "you need a teacher"/Rey kicking his ass instead moment that makes the TLJ interaction so senseless.

There's also not a conflict between Rey expecting to train with Luke and Rey expecting to bring Luke back and of course, neither of those are Rey journeying to Luke so that he can tell her why she has a role in the story. 

There are outraged fans saying how The Last Jedi ruined that "epic ending" and not continuing what Abrams had filmed. They didn't pay that much attention to the scene Abrams shot. Luke wants NO PART of that lightsaber.

It's the emotional tone. TFA treats that moment with gravitas. TLJ turns it into a comedic moment. Personally, that was something I was fine with, but I understand why people would have been upset. And it was more of Rian Johnson deciding that he didn't care about establishing tonal or emotional consistency with The Force Awakens.

(I'm not going to address your comments about Rey's emotional desperation because I'm pretty sure you and I specifically have already talked about that in this thread, so I'm going to try and follow the rules about not repeating myself ad nauseum.)