S01.E12: The Big Day

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It's a weird thing to hate but I hate the depiction of pregnant women as angry at the father.   I've been very pregnant and I understand moods and hormones and extreme discomfort and resentment at being the ONLY active parent at that time.   But I didn't turn into a nutball who resented becoming pregnant and/or miscast my own role in the situation, and I've never seen anyone do that, outside of TV where it's ubiquitous.  

The real live women I know are stoic as hell in nearly all things maternal.  We don't turn to babbling bitches over a little pain and swelling and lack of sleep.  

I agree.  It's so stereotypical. I know that I and other mothers that I know don't act that way.  Plus, Rebecca has meltdowns even when not pregnant, so............to me, it's just who that have that character as a person.  And it's not appealing, imo. 

[methodwriter85]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think William did say it was childbirth.

My guess is that William and the mother tried to do some kind of homebirth because they were addicts with no health insurance and thought they'd get in trouble with the law because she was high. Then things went wrong, and after she died, William took Randall to the firehouse.

[ShadowFacts]

2 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

My guess is that William and the mother tried to do some kind of homebirth because they were addicts with no health insurance and thought they'd get in trouble with the law because she was high. Then things went wrong, and after she died, William took Randall to the firehouse.

Yes, or it just started happening very fast, and she hemorrhaged or something.  I keep focusing on that blanket Randall was wrapped in, it looked hand-knit, not some old towel or raggedy blanket.  That says to me that even though addicted, there was some preparation.  People who abuse drugs aren't out of it 24/7.   I also remember the episode when William was telling Randall about his mother, and Randall's eyes were shining.  I would have loved to have heard what William said. 

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Rebecca could have unpacked those boxes.

It depends.  Was she restricted from lifting heavy boxes?  They were on the floor; that is a lot of bending for a heavily pregnant with triplets woman. Perhaps Jack stopped her from unpacking with promises to get it done and now she has hit her limit in waiting.  (What am I saying?  It's St. Jack.  It's all Rebecca's fault.  Silly me.)

[Guest]

I rewatched the first scene with William and Randall earlier today for some reason and I'm pretty sure William just tells Randall his mother died, with no further detail.  It was part of his "I remember X, I don't remember Y..." spiel.  I thought the suggestion was he was strung out on heroin at the time and it was hazy, and the writers were being cagey on details of the mom dying.  

[Kira53]

On 1/18/2017 at 8:54 AM, ClareWalks said:

This episode definitely felt like they just cobbled one together out of a bunch of pieces of "story holes" from earlier in the season. It was pretty good. I loved Rebecca in this episode. Yes, she was a shrill, emotional harpy, but anyone who has been hugely pregnant could relate to it. Loved how 2nd-trimester Rebecca was like "I love being pregnant," too. Most women do in their 2nd trimester. Then she went from adorably huge to TOO huge and it wasn't fun anymore.

I've normally been very easy on Miguel but dude. Taking Jack, who hates golf, golfing, then telling him to buy specific clothes for golf, which is an activity he will probably never do again? When he has triplets on the way and needs to save his money? Miguel was a real idiot this episode.

Oh, and I didn't like Dr. K's son being all "it's been 14 months, you have to move on." That isn't a super long time to get over your wife's death, especially being married over 50 years. I'm glad Dr. K felt ready to move on in the end, but it was insane that his kids were badgering him to date and stuff.

Dr. K. had her wheelchair, her makeup, clothes and medicine just as she left it.  They wanted him to move on from that.  The dating came later.  It has to be creepy to come in the house and your dead mom's wheel chair greets you.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Kira53

[Eeksquire]

On a totally shallow note (that's not about Jack's behind!) Baby Randall was absolutely adorable.  I don't know where they found that baby, but man, I just wanted to squeeze him!

[Kira53]

23 hours ago, possibilities said:

I forgot about the bus driver!

I suppose it could have helped Randall's PI to find William, though? Just that, because it had such a big effect on their life, anyone related to the adoption would remember it, so anyone could go to the fire station and be remembered, if the guy who found Randall is still there.

It's a possibility.  I've wondered how even the best, most expensive PI could find William after 36 years.  I'm pretty sure that the fireman and Dr. K will be back.  In the past or in the future.

[ClareWalks]

35 minutes ago, Kira53 said:

Dr. K. had her wheelchair, her makeup, clothes and medicine just as she left it.  They wanted him to move on from that.  The dating came later.  It has to be creepy to come in the hose and you dead mom's wheel chair greets you.

Yeah, that part I got, but the whole "are there any women you want to go out with?" line of questioning was odd to me.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

It depends.  Was she restricted from lifting heavy boxes?  They were on the floor; that is a lot of bending for a heavily pregnant with triplets woman. Perhaps Jack stopped her from unpacking with promises to get it done and now she has hit her limit in waiting.  (What am I saying?  It's St. Jack.  It's all Rebecca's fault.  Silly me.)

The boxes were already sitting around in the rooms, I don't think she would have had to lift any of them.  All she had to do was open the top, lift out the shirt or dish or whatever and put it in it's place.  She could have done it at a snails pace over the course of several weeks, taking a break every ten minutes and still have got it done.  Why should Jack have to come home from a full day of working construction, do all the heavy work like building cabinets and installing bathroom fixtures and then also do all the light work like putting baby clothes in the dresser? 

[ShadowFacts]

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

The boxes were already sitting around in the rooms, I don't think she would have had to lift any of them.  All she had to do was open the top, lift out the shirt or dish or whatever and put it in it's place.  She could have done it at a snails pace over the course of several weeks, taking a break every ten minutes and still have got it done.  Why should Jack have to come home from a full day of working construction, do all the heavy work like building cabinets and installing bathroom fixtures and then also do all the light work like putting baby clothes in the dresser? 

Yes, she could have, since she wasn't on bed rest and she did walk to the liquor store.  My takeaway was that she was angsty and kvetching about this thing, maybe even was projecting on him about her own anxieties, and if it hadn't been that it would have been something else.  She did feel like a horse's ass when she realized she forgot his birthday, though. 

[breezy424]

I know many thought the fireman Joe story wasn't necessary.  I can't help but think that it's because we're going to see him again.  I thought it interesting when he left the church and got to his car, the camera specifically panned down the side of the  department car and it said 'Fire Inspector'.  Hm...  There's got to be a reason why they did that.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I know many thought the fireman Joe story wasn't necessary.  I can't help but think that it's because we're going to see him again.  I thought it interesting when he left the church and got to his car, the camera specifically panned down the side of the  department car and it said 'Fire Inspector'.  Hm...  There's got to be a reason why they did that.

I figured it was to show the 70s-ish script used on the car, so we knew we were in a flashback.  

[breezy424]

8 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I figured it was to show the 70s-ish script used on the car, so we knew we were in a flashback.  

I'm hoping it's more clever than that.  It could have just said Fire Department.  :)

[pennben]

56 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I know many thought the fireman Joe story wasn't necessary.  I can't help but think that it's because we're going to see him again.  I thought it interesting when he left the church and got to his car, the camera specifically panned down the side of the  department car and it said 'Fire Inspector'.  Hm...  There's got to be a reason why they did that.

I'm just using this comment as a jumping off point.....

I don't like the Toby that I have seen on the episodes so far.  I don't like the Miguel I have seen on the episodes so far.  I am annoyed with the build up of "perfect Jack" I have seen on the episodes so far.  I feel like I am justified in each and every single one of my impressions of characters to this point of the show.

So, I think part of what annoys me about this show and makes me much more snarky than I should be, is that I feel like I can hear the writers/show runners giggling in glee waiting to disabuse me of the 'prejudices' I have against these characters.  I feel like I'm watching them set me up for a fall and saying to myself "boy, I shouldn't have judged so soon, if only I had known.  I'll be better in not pre-judging people in the future".

Blah...whatever...I'm not watching to be taught lessons and be manipulated.  Think about it, they can manipulate the hell out of anything they show via flashbacks, etc.

Hell, at this point Breezy, I'm assuming that the good-guy fire inspector is an arsonist (that will be revealed in Season Seven)......early in his career (seen here) he is just in a disappointing and unhappy marriage, finds a small child in the box from out front of the fire department and decides to give him to his wife to save his marriage.  She said no, but things turned around for awhile.  Then she leaves him, he finds his second love...the open flame and getting away with burning it all down (like she did to their marriage and his self-worth).  Wow, weren't we all wrong thinking he was a good guy firefighter back in Season One.  Of course, he will have set the fire and Kate's illegitimate son (from sex at that Season One Christmas sex with Toby), will be in the building that is on fire trying to save his own daughter who is living with his ex....Olivia's illegitimate son from the sex in the funeral home with Kevin.  Note:  We will be in flashforwards by Season Seven.

Edited January 20, 2017 by pennben

[breezy424]

26 minutes ago, pennben said:

I'm just using this comment as a jumping off point.....

I don't like the Toby that I have seen on the episodes so far.  I don't like the Miguel I have seen on the episodes so far.  I am annoyed with the build up of "perfect Jack" I have seen on the episodes so far.  I feel like I am justified in each and every single one of my impressions of characters to this point of the show.

So, I think part of what annoys me about this show and makes me much more snarky than I should be, is that I feel like I can hear the writers/show runners giggling in glee waiting to disabuse me of the 'prejudices' I have against these characters.  I feel like I'm watching them set me up for a fall and saying to myself "boy, I shouldn't have judged so soon, if only I had known.  I'll be better in not pre-judging people in the future".

Blah...whatever...I'm not watching to be taught lessons and be manipulated.  Think about it, they can manipulate the hell out of anything they show via flashbacks, etc.

Hell, at this point Breezy, I'm assuming that the good-guy fire inspector is an arsonist (that will be revealed in Season Seven)......early in his career (seen here) he is just in a disappointing and unhappy marriage, finds a small child in the box from out front of the fire department and decides to give him to his wife to save his marriage.  She said no, but things turned around for awhile.  Then she leaves him, he finds his second love...the open flame and getting away with burning it all down (like she did to their marriage and his self-worth).  Wow, weren't we all wrong thinking he was a good guy firefighter back in Season One.  Of course, he will have set the fire and Kate's illegitimate son (from sex at that Season One Christmas sex with Toby), will be in the building that is on fire trying to save his own daughter who is living with his ex....Olivia's illegitimate son from the sex in the funeral home with Kevin.  Note:  We will be in flashforwards by Season Seven.

Gosh, I hope that doesn't happen but I get where you're coming from.

I was thinking more that maybe Jack screwed up one of his construction projects and Joe is the 'Fire Inspector' who has to lay blame on Jack and he commits suicide.  Heck, maybe this project was for Miquel's family and they die in the fire.  Maybe Jack dies in the fire too.  It's gonna be something.

No matter what it is, I think Joe is coming back. 

[pennben]

Oh, I think you are right (about Joe returning) and that was a good pickup of a seed which I think the show is planting for whatever reason. 

I think I'm just rebelling from shows insisting that I am watching improperly when I "settle" for just enjoying each episode they present, rather than be in a contest with them for figuring out nuggets they've "left there right for me" the viewer.   Not all shows have to be "LOST-ish" to be good.

In rebellion, I don't dig and I judge each episode on it's own merit. I just had an amazing surprise on another show I watch when I know I was being invited to dig deeper and find clues in each episode.  And because I loved every single episode and the characters in each episode of that show, I found the reveal at the end wonderful...maybe I'll go back and watch the season to see the clues they planted, but likely not, that wasn't the point for me. 

Just give me good stand-alone episodes and character development, and I'll be happy.  I won't be happy with characters aggravating my every last nerve for many episodes, but in the season finale you try to make me feel bad for feeling that way because of a flashback/flashforward that hasn't been earned.

Edited January 20, 2017 by pennben

[4leafclover]

I don't want to be too nit-picky, but if Randall's mother had actually been addicted to drugs and continued to use during her pregnancy, baby Randall would not have been as sweet and quiet as he was portrayed.  Sadly, the newborns of drug addicted women constantly cry and writhe in pain until they are put in the NICU and given meds to help them with their own withdrawals.

[MsJamieDornan]

2 hours ago, pennben said:

Blah...whatever...I'm not watching to be taught lessons and be manipulated.  Think about it, they can manipulate the hell out of anything they show via flashbacks, etc

Very true. Lets hope they dont go too far with it.

[SlackerInc]

Ordinary People: great movie.  The reference to the unusual portrayal by MTM of a "complicated mother" is a definite wink at how Mandy Moore (hey, another M. Moore!) is portraying Rebecca here.

Jack really showed up those guys at the pro shop.  Almost hard to believe that Miguel would continue to be such a loyal friend after a move like that, which is really implicitly calling him and his friends out as bad husbands/fathers.

LOL, that was an even more ridiculously overaged "newborn" than usual on TV.  That kid looked about eight months old!

Very effective episode, a real tearjerker.  And they carried it without any of the modern-day characters.

I really wonder what it would be like to lose one triplet before it ever was a living, breathing baby in your arms.  I have four kids, and I would have been devastated by the loss of any of them in childbirth, even if it was our youngest and we "already had three to spare".  But at the same time, it seems like if you end the day with two more babies than you had the day before, it wouldn't be that sad.  But who am I to say without having actually lived it, IDK.

[SlackerInc]

On 1/17/2017 at 11:24 PM, Court said:

I was born in 83 and I do not consider myself a millennial or Gen X? It is a weird in between one for anyone born between 1980-83/84. I don't fit in either. We didn't have internet until I was a teen and when we did it was dialup. 

We had pagers, not phones. When we did have phones, they were the Nokia bricks. I bought my first phone and paid the bill myself at 18. 

But technology doesn't baffle us either. 

 

On 1/18/2017 at 11:37 AM, photo fox said:

The Social Issues topic would be a great place for all of this "Millennials vs. Gen Xers" talk, y'all.  It's not really on topic for this episode.

Cheers!

Okay, cool because this is a topic of interest for me but I also don't want to annoy people who are not into it.  Anyone else who is, please meet me at the Social Issues topic!

11 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It's a weird thing to hate but I hate the depiction of pregnant women as angry at the father.   I've been very pregnant and I understand moods and hormones and extreme discomfort and resentment at being the ONLY active parent at that time.   But I didn't turn into a nutball who resented becoming pregnant and/or miscast my own role in the situation, and I've never seen anyone do that, outside of TV where it's ubiquitous.  

The real live women I know are stoic as hell in nearly all things maternal.  We don't turn to babbling bitches over a little pain and swelling and lack of sleep.  

Hmm...maybe it depends on your perspective (mother-to-be vs. father-to-be)?  I was laughing over how uncannily similar I thought Rebecca's behavior was to my wife's when she was pregnant, and I called her over to check it out (she watched the pilot at my request but otherwise does not watch the show).  She was not amused and in fact strenuously protested that the comparison was wildly accurate and unfair.

I also thought it was reminiscent of my first wife's pregnancies (I have four kids, two from each marriage), but I don't think I'll be asking my ex if she concurs.  ;-)

[MaryPatShelby]

On 1/17/2017 at 9:49 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

People here talk so much about Jack's drinking.  Is this something we EVER see?  If Jack's so called "Drinking" doesn't affect anything I wonder why so much talk surrounds it. 

Toby is one of the least "characters (who) are just there" characters that I've ever experienced on television, personally.

Miguel, to me, is just kind of just there, but I totally understand the feelings towards him because of his position as the interloper.

I asked about the drinking last episode too - why we discuss it so much when we've seen it, in my estimation, exactly one time.  That one time had an effect on a lot of viewers, I guess!!

I am completely on board with the Toby hate (ha) but I haven't found any reason to hate Miguel yet.  But, if he's the interloper....Rebecca married him.  Why doesn't she get some of the hate for that?  Unless he held a gun to her head, and does so every single day, Rebecca bears at least half the responsibility for letting him interlope.  If that's a word.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Sure, if you're going to be logical about it, but I don't watch a television show like Spock.  I watch the show with my own feelings and emotions.  I don't like Toby, and I love Jack, and I don't really care about the 'double standard' it supposedly holds.  They're different characters who are different, and they're fictional people.  I don't really care about Miguel but as I said before I don't "hate" him I think Present Miguel looks like bad Photoshop.  But Rebecca is part of the main family of the story, part of the 'heroes', and Jack is the ultimate hero of the show (to me, to some), so yes I understand people hating Miguel.  I'm neutral on Rebecca and I'm neutral on Miguel with some slight negativity.  Everyone's going to have their own feelings and reactions to characters and it's subjective based on life experience and disposition.  

There's a lot we don't know yet which is
1) How does Jack die
2) What were Miguel's feelings for Rebecca WHILE Jack was still married to her
3) How did Rebecca and Miguel get together

So the situation is very ambiguous and leads to the audience to have their own feelings and ideas on it.  I'd say 2 is the most suspicious part.  If we were watching a soap opera, a crime show, or a movie, then Miguel would be a suspect in Jack's death!

Edited January 20, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Johnny Dollar]

There are only two characters on this that show I like - William and Jack. William is dying and Jack is already dead. And I just know that this show is going to take down St. Jack a few notches. And it ain't gonna be pretty. 

[Tikichick]

17 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It's a weird thing to hate but I hate the depiction of pregnant women as angry at the father.   I've been very pregnant and I understand moods and hormones and extreme discomfort and resentment at being the ONLY active parent at that time.   But I didn't turn into a nutball who resented becoming pregnant and/or miscast my own role in the situation, and I've never seen anyone do that, outside of TV where it's ubiquitous.  

The real live women I know are stoic as hell in nearly all things maternal.  We don't turn to babbling bitches over a little pain and swelling and lack of sleep.  

I get what you're saying, it is common to portray pregnancy and childbirth on film via the irrationally angry woman and it can get old.  However, it does women no favors to suggest we bear all with stoicism and silence and should simply get on with it.  That's neither true or needs to be an expectation set upon the shoulders of all women.   Women have the right to voice their feelings and their needs without being dismissed or seen as irrational.  IMO that's frequently the bigger problem.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Tikichick
Hit enter too soon.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I get what you're saying, it is common to portray pregnancy and childbirth on film via the irrationally angry woman and it can get old.  However, it does women no favors to suggest we bear all with stoicism and silence and should simply get on with it.  That's neither true or needs to be an expectation set upon the shoulders of all women.   Women have the right to voice their feelings and their needs without being dismissed or seen as irrational.  IMO that's frequently the bigger problem.

That's not at all what I said.  

Do you understand better if I explain it this way?   Do you think it's funny on TV when a woman in a boardroom makes a strong or contrary comment and the men joke that she's just PMSing?  That is on par, to me, with this joke of the irrationally angry pregnant woman.  "Look at the hysterically emotional girl, she's like a puppet on a string to her hormones!  And we all know it, that's why it's funny!"  Sure, there's a kernel of truth, but it's not the ridiculous level they make it out to be.  If this was a sitcom I'd give it more slack.  

8 hours ago, pennben said:

I just had an amazing surprise on another show I watch when I know I was being invited to dig deeper and find clues in each episode.  And because I loved every single episode and the characters in each episode of that show, I found the reveal at the end wonderful...maybe I'll go back and watch the season to see the clues they planted, but likely not, that wasn't the point for me. 

I need to know what show this was, please!  PM me, if you prefer.  Thanks!

5 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

 

Okay, cool because this is a topic of interest for me but I also don't want to annoy people who are not into it.  Anyone else who is, please meet me at the Social Issues topic!

Hmm...maybe it depends on your perspective (mother-to-be vs. father-to-be)?  I was laughing over how uncannily similar I thought Rebecca's behavior was to my wife's when she was pregnant, and I called her over to check it out (she watched the pilot at my request but otherwise does not watch the show).  She was not amused and in fact strenuously protested that the comparison was wildly accurate and unfair.

I also thought it was reminiscent of my first wife's pregnancies (I have four kids, two from each marriage), but I don't think I'll be asking my ex if she concurs.  ;-)

I think there's a kernel of truth, like I said above, but the portrayal is so over the top and overused as to be insulting to women with any sensitivity to stereotypes, I think.   Though I guess husbands could be offended at the stereotype behavior of the golf shop guys, too.  But the writers gave us Jack as the voice of dissent in that scene.   Rebecca's scene only got her feeling like an asshole, not any 'voice of the audience' character to balk at the archaic portrayal.  

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

That's not at all what I said.  

Do you understand better if I explain it this way?   Do you think it's funny on TV when a woman in a boardroom makes a strong or contrary comment and the men joke that she's just PMSing?  That is on par, to me, with this joke of the irrationally angry pregnant woman.  "Look at the hysterically emotional girl, she's like a puppet on a string to her hormones!  And we all know it, that's why it's funny!"  Sure, there's a kernel of truth, but it's not the ridiculous level they make it out to be.  If this was a sitcom I'd give it more slack.  

I need to know what show this was, please!  PM me, if you prefer.  Thanks!

I think there's a kernel of truth, like I said above, but the portrayal is so over the top and overused as to be insulting to women with any sensitivity to stereotypes, I think.   Though I guess husbands could be offended at the stereotype behavior of the golf shop guys, too.  But the writers gave us Jack as the voice of dissent in that scene.   Rebecca's scene only got her feeling like an asshole, not any 'voice of the audience' character to balk at the archaic portrayal.  

Yes, I believe I understand -- as that is exactly my point, women's concerns and behaviors being summarily dismissed as irrational and hormonal.  Your initial post that I responded to said that you and women you know don't behave that way, and handle things stoically and simply get on with it, leaving the impression women should simply accept whatever comes their way, because to balk or speak up isn't appropriate.  I think women have the absolute right to speak up when needed, and should be heard respectfully -- not as an irrational less than person to be dismissed as such.       

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Yes, I believe I understand -- as that is exactly my point, women's concerns and behaviors being summarily dismissed as irrational and hormonal.  Your initial post that I responded to said that you and women you know don't behave that way, and handle things stoically and simply get on with it, leaving the impression women should simply accept whatever comes their way, because to balk or speak up isn't appropriate.  I think women have the absolute right to speak up when needed, and should be heard respectfully -- not as an irrational less than person to be dismissed as such.       

That bolded part is all your impression.  I never implied that.  I'm not saying anything at all about how women SHOULD act.  I'm discussing the weak writing of a tv show.  

Edited January 20, 2017 by Guest

[Tikichick]

18 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

That bolded part is all your impression.  I never implied that.  I'm not saying anything at all about how women SHOULD act.  I'm discussing the weak writing of a tv show.  

You're right, my mistake.  You merely stated that yourself and other real, live women you know never behave that way, as you all soldier on stoically. 

[ClareWalks]

I know the hysterical pregnant lady is a common TV trope, but I think it's fairly accurate to Rebecca's character in general. I thought Mandy Moore did a good job taking a normal Rebecca trait and amplifying it to an appropriate Big And Pregnant Rebecca proportion.

[SunnyBeBe]

48 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

That bolded part is all your impression.  I never implied that.  I'm not saying anything at all about how women SHOULD act.  I'm discussing the weak writing of a tv show.  

I have trouble with what I consider lazy or conventional writing too. This includes pregnant women going off on their husbands with little explanation.  It's like there's a wink, wink from the writers as if if to say. (Very pregnant woman, being a beach, like pregnant women do.)  It only takes a little more time to be creative about it, imo.  The writers on this show do get creative with other things, though.  Thus, I'm a big fan of the show.  

I also get annoyed with little cliches, like, the family sits down to a rushed morning breakfast, only the only thing they do is take a sip of juice, one bite of toast and run out of the door.  It's just so bizarre.  I don't know of anyone who jumps up from a plate of bacon, eggs, waffles, etc.  who walks out on it. It's just something that is thrown in without much thought, imo.  Also, how many kids have to ask to be excused before leaving the dining table?  It used to a standard in tv and movies a lot.  Too fake.  

Edited January 20, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Guest]

Exactly.  

Even the writers were suggesting that Rebecca had no particularly valid beefs with Jack, she was just being irrational and hormonal.  If they were suggesting Jack was a lazy lout or something I think the characterization of Rebecca would've been inoffensive.  They even had her repeat over and over how Jack was perfect and didn't deserve it.  

No one is saying pregnant women should take abuse silently or stuff their feelings.   The show chose the over-the-top, so-hysterical-it-was-almost-comical stereotype of the pregnant woman.  I would've appreciated a little more subtlety is all.  This show is not going to be known for its subtlety, though.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 1/19/2017 at 7:05 AM, Rockstar99435 said:

The only thing I liked about being pregnant was that morning I woke up and my boobs were all, "Remember all those wishes you made when you were 13? Sorry it took so long." And even that stopped being fun after a while.

When I was in high school I was lamenting my small (almost non-existent) boobs and my mom told me that when she was pregnant, there was a window where her boobs were noticeablely larger but her belly wasn't huge. She said that's when you find a cute top and get some good pictures of your great cleavage and regular sized belly which you can then look at when you're nine months pregnant and you feel as big as a house. 

Rebecca was definitely snappier with Jack than I remember seeing at any other time, but she was about on par with some (not all!) women at the very end of their pregnancies when they're uncomfortable, impatient, and hormonal. I dislike the cliche of the angry pregnant lady too though. 

[camom]

Quote

the whole "are there any women you want to go out with?" line of questioning was odd to me

Only I don't think they specified women.  I think they asked Dr. K. if there were any friends he'd like to go to a movie with, etc.  I think they just wanted him to move on a little bit, not suddenly jump into a whole new life.  Still having everything just like she left it after 14 months, I don't blame his kids for being concerned.

[wendyg]

Re the discussion about birth order: Randall *is* older no matter what the birth order is, because as far as we know he was not premature and the triplets were. So even though their birth certificates should have the say date of birth, Randall had six weeks' greater gestation. That should make him physically bigger and noticeably more developed, certainly while they were babies and toddlers.

[kili]

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This includes pregnant women going off on their husbands with little explanation.

They did provide some explanation though. They started by showing she was pregnant and happy, but then they showed it became more difficult. The soreness, the trouble sleeping, the trouble doing things and none of her clothes fit. Hormonal or not, the lack of sleep and those other elements are enough to make anybody a little bit cranky.  I thought they did a good job of quickly showing that being pregnant with triplets can grind on somebody.

If Randall was full term (and he looks past full-term in the show - Mrs. Fireman "That's a newborn" Me: "Are you sure?" Must suspend disbelief when it comes to show babies), then he would probably bigger than Kate and Kevin for that first year (they were born slightly premature - and that last 4 weeks are when kids bulk up).

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I also get annoyed with little cliches, like, the family sits down to a rushed morning breakfast, only the only thing they do is take a sip of juice, one bite of toast and run out of the door.

This is another place where I willingly suspend disbelief because otherwise, it is really hard on the actors. If they actually have to eat anything, they are going to end up super-full by the final take. And then they have to worry about their weight. Plus, the food is quickly going to become quite gross and the continuity people are going to have nightmares (suddenly, there is more egg on the plate than there was before).  I can completely understand why show kids always run off on their breakfast.

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Only I don't think they specified women.  I think they asked Dr. K. if there were any friends he'd like to go to a movie with, etc.  I think they just wanted him to move on a little bit, not suddenly jump into a whole new life.  Still having everything just like she left it after 14 months, I don't blame his kids for being concerned.

Dr. K. was completely frozen in the grief stage. While everybody recovers from the loss of a loved one in a different way, his frozen life was not a healthy one.  He wasn't living. He was just existing and the depression was grinding away at him.  Peter was right to be concerned, but he didn't know how to approach it.

Edited January 20, 2017 by kili

[Court]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I have trouble with what I consider lazy or conventional writing too. This includes pregnant women going off on their husbands with little explanation.  It's like there's a wink, wink from the writers as if if to say. (Very pregnant woman, being a beach, like pregnant women do.)  It only takes a little more time to be creative about it, imo.  The writers on this show do get creative with other things, though.  Thus, I'm a big fan of the show.  

I also get annoyed with little cliches, like, the family sits down to a rushed morning breakfast, only the only thing they do is take a sip of juice, one bite of toast and run out of the door.  It's just so bizarre.  I don't know of anyone who jumps up from a plate of bacon, eggs, waffles, etc.  who walks out on it. It's just something that is thrown in without much thought, imo.  Also, how many kids have to ask to be excused before leaving the dining table?  It used to a standard in tv and movies a lot.  Too fake.  

This is likely regional. Or cultural? Because my kids have to ask,we had to ask growing up and all my friends kids have to ask as well. So for me, it would be fake if kids never had to ask.

[Hanahope]

20 hours ago, Crs97 said:

21 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Rebecca could have unpacked those boxes.

It depends.  Was she restricted from lifting heavy boxes?  They were on the floor; that is a lot of bending for a heavily pregnant with triplets woman. Perhaps Jack stopped her from unpacking with promises to get it done and now she has hit her limit in waiting.  (What am I saying?  It's St. Jack.  It's all Rebecca's fault.  Silly me.)

I went into labor unpacking boxes after we moved into our house a month prior.  Given she was carrying triplets, she was probably advised not to exert herself too much in the last couple of months, to try and get the babies as close as possible to term.

Query:  Since they lived in PA, how could there be a "liquor and more" store?  Didn't PA still have state run "Wine & Spirit" stores back then? Stores that just sold wine and liquor, not extra 'snacks' (and beer was sold in a different store, a 'beer distributor').

[ShadowFacts]

20 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I rewatched the first scene with William and Randall earlier today for some reason and I'm pretty sure William just tells Randall his mother died, with no further detail.  It was part of his "I remember X, I don't remember Y..." spiel.  I thought the suggestion was he was strung out on heroin at the time and it was hazy, and the writers were being cagey on details of the mom dying.  

I watched it and Randall says to Beth, before he even meets William, that his mother was a crack addict who died during childbirth.  So I guess that had to have come from the private investigator.  Then when they meet, William says he barely remembers the day, he remembers her dying and remembers the baby.  So that makes it possible that she delivered, and then died shortly after.  There would be a coroner's report, so maybe that's how the investigator knew. 

[ChromaKelly]

13 hours ago, 4leafclover said:

I don't want to be too nit-picky, but if Randall's mother had actually been addicted to drugs and continued to use during her pregnancy, baby Randall would not have been as sweet and quiet as he was portrayed.  Sadly, the newborns of drug addicted women constantly cry and writhe in pain until they are put in the NICU and given meds to help them with their own withdrawals.

I thought of that too when they first went with the whole addicted mother thing. Which, is kind of like really? Does the black adopted child have to be a crack baby? Plus it's a little early for crack but whatever.

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, ChromaKelly said:

I thought of that too when they first went with the whole addicted mother thing. Which, is kind of like really? Does the black adopted child have to be a crack baby? Plus it's a little early for crack but whatever.

When we talked about this in the original episode thread, I looked up a lot of crack baby info, and it all depends on how much the mother used, how often, how recently, etc.  Randall might have realistically shown little or no effects, or at least wasn't the stereotypical inconsolable crack baby. 

[3 is enough]

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Yeah, that part I got, but the whole "are there any women you want to go out with?" line of questioning was odd to me.

There are lots of families where the adult kids of widows or widowers are vehemently opposed to their parents dating again and possibly finding a replacement for their departed mom or dad.  Maybe Dr. K's son just wanted to let him know that they were ok with him seeing someone new.  

[Guest]

My elderly mother dated a widower once who still had his wife's stuff all over the house, including her nightie hanging on a hook in the bathroom.  She ended that quickly.  

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

I went into labor unpacking boxes after we moved into our house a month prior.  Given she was carrying triplets, she was probably advised not to exert herself too much in the last couple of months, to try and get the babies as close as possible to term.

I guess it varies, but I find taking things out of boxes and setting them on shelves  to be very mild exertion compared to pounding the pavement in ill fitting shoes all the way to the liquor store and back.  I guess it's just an ongoing sore point with me, the number of stay-at home women who think it's a fair division of labor for her to stay home while he goes to work and then expect him to help with housework when he gets home.  Rebecca seems to think Jack should do everything.

[Hanahope]

48 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I went into labor unpacking boxes after we moved into our house a month prior.  Given she was carrying triplets, she was probably advised not to exert herself too much in the last couple of months, to try and get the babies as close as possible to term.

I guess it varies, but I find taking things out of boxes and setting them on shelves  to be very mild exertion compared to pounding the pavement in ill fitting shoes all the way to the liquor store and back.  I guess it's just an ongoing sore point with me, the number of stay-at home women who think it's a fair division of labor for her to stay home while he goes to work and then expect him to help with housework when he gets home.  Rebecca seems to think Jack should do everything.

 

She only "pounded the pavement" when she realized it was Jack's birthday, felt guilty and wanted to make the cake.  Before that, she was sitting down.  Even that 'walking distance' completely wore her out.

I'm sure Rebecca does plenty of work around the house when she's not hugely pregnant with triplets.  She probably couldn't do much unpacking when the house was only half done.  Can't exactly put pots and dishes in cabinets that aren't there, or things on shelves in bookcases that haven't been bought because they don't have money and/or don't want to get while the walls are still to be painted.  Its very likely that because Jack couldn't finish building the house quickly  enough (which was still unfinished per the episode), they had to completely live out of boxes, until it became too late for her to even unpack a few because of her condition.

[ClareWalks]

The circumstances around Randall's birth, I am very curious about. So if his mother died in childbirth, did she give birth in a hospital? Or in some alleyway somewhere? Either way, I assume the baby then found itself in William's care (either officially as the birth father, or by default because the mom is dead). But if she just died on the street or in their apartment after giving birth, the story becomes a LOT darker and makes William look pretty awful. Because you know that if he'd called a coroner or ambulance that they would have known she had given birth before she died, and wouldn't they have been all "where's the baby? Why didn't you go to the hospital?" The whole thing is just odd to me. Maybe they'll have an episode about it, but so far William's just like "I don't even remember what happened," which means he was basically high at the time.

[kili]

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But if she just died on the street or in their apartment after giving birth, the story becomes a LOT darker and makes William look pretty awful. Because you know that if he'd called a coroner or ambulance that they would have known she had given birth before she died, and wouldn't they have been all "where's the baby? Why didn't you go to the hospital?"

Even if he didn't call the coroner or ambulance himself, surely the coroner must have been called at some point? Unless William "got rid" of her body, somebody must have stumbled upon the body if she died in an urban area and the coroner will know she just gave birth unless she's just bones by that time. (and even then, I think they would know....they can tell from the bones if a woman has ever had a child and a woman who died moments after giving birth would probably have clues they could read).

It isn't going to take a brain surgeon to associate the abandoned new born baby with the dead woman who just gave birth. Even in the 80s.  And then the cops could likely figure out who her boyfriend was.

I tend to think she must have died outside of a hospital because I can't imagine they would let a clearly drug addled William walk out with a newborn just so he could go deposit the baby at a firehouse. Wouldn't family services be called? Why wouldn't he have just left Randall in the safety of the hospital? Wouldn't a social worker at least have been involved to deal with his grief over loving his partner while trying to deal with a newborn?  Wouldn't somebody have figured out that abandoned baby was likely the one the drug addict whose wife had just died left the hospital with earlier that day?

Logically, Willliam should have been visited by some cops shortly after dumping Randall. While a woman might be able to hide a pregnancy, I'm not sure how long William could if the mother died.

[Guest]

I figure that's why they glossed over the details... because it would be odd for social services not to be involved.  I suppose I can fanwank it that she delivered at home and died and whoever police-wise dealt with that death didn't realize William was a junkie or he hid it well, for some reason.  I suppose it's hard to look a grieving widower/father in the face and accuse him of drug abuse unless you're pretty sure he's unfit to deal with the kid.  Maybe he lied and said he had sisters to step in or something.  And then realized he was in over his head and wanted to just bail anonymously.  Back then the abandonment was illegal but I kind of doubt that when it's done safely like that the police bothered looking for the perp much, if at all.  Dumpster cases, yes.  

I knew a nurse at an inner city hospital who said the average age of mothers giving birth there was 15, and most of them had no prior prenatal care.  They would do nothing until in labor then go to the general hospital that couldn't turn people away for insurance reasons.  That was in the 80s.  Not sure what uninsured mothers do now.  I had one sis who had a baby at home with a midwife, paid out of pocket, though, partly because she had no insurance.  Also 80s.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, kili said:

I tend to think she must have died outside of a hospital because I can't imagine they would let a clearly drug addled William walk out with a newborn just so he could go deposit the baby at a firehouse. Wouldn't family services be called? Why wouldn't he have just left Randall in the safety of the hospital? Wouldn't a social worker at least have been involved to deal with his grief over loving his partner while trying to deal with a newborn?  Wouldn't somebody have figured out that abandoned baby was likely the one the drug addict whose wife had just died left the hospital with earlier that day?

It almost surely did not happen in a hospital.  When William explains dropping him off at the firehouse to Randall, he says he barely remembers "the day", he remembers her dying, and remembers the baby.  So the death, the baby and the drop-off all happened in one day.  All of the rest is still murky.  Randall knows his mother died in childbirth, from the investigator.  How did s/he find that out?  Yet to be seen.  Must involve records of some sort, though, whether death certificate or something else.  

[Kira53]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I watched it and Randall says to Beth, before he even meets William, that his mother was a crack addict who died during childbirth.  So I guess that had to have come from the private investigator.  Then when they meet, William says he barely remembers the day, he remembers her dying and remembers the baby.  So that makes it possible that she delivered, and then died shortly after.  There would be a coroner's report, so maybe that's how the investigator knew. 

That might have been misinformation from the PI.  Randall didn't not behave like a crack baby and I though about that in the pilot.  I hope that William is consulted about the mother in greater depth.  This was alway a mystery to me.  A good possibility is that she will be revealed to still be alive.  If she died giving birth in the apartment, how would William be able to take the baby to the firehouse at the same time that he would have to be reporting a death.  Maybe she didn't want the baby but had stopped using in the last trimester ......?  Reporting a dead woman who had obviously had give birth would be complicated.  The authorities would want to know where the baby was.  Looking forward to this reveal.  It would be great if after William's death Randall's mother was found and she wasn't so good.