S18.E07: Next Chapter

[WendyCR72]

The SVU team investigates a woman has been sexually assaulted by a masked man, but she believes the rapist is the same man who went to jail for stalking her. Meanwhile, Tucker contemplates retirement and a future with Benson.

[Primetimer]

An old stalking case isn't as simple as it seems...and neither is the prospect of retirement.

View the full article

[Spartan Girl]

Goddammit Liv. You blew it with Cassidy, are you trying to blow it with Tucker? TIME. TO. RETIRE.

Thank God for Carisi.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[RafaelBarbas]

A great episode overall. At first I cringed when it looked like Rick would be copying Warren (Rick is far superior to Warren and doesn't need to be stealing ideas from him!) but it worked out far better. How Dodds should have in the first place. I find myself hoping this leads to Carisi being written off, but sadly I know it'll never happen. But yeah, definitely a nice episode.

Barba returns the ep after next, which I am excited for! Meanwhile, next week stars Raul's godson, Iain Armitage.

[StaceyNotStacie]

Interesting episode. I was expecting Olivia to dump Tucker at the beginning of the episode. 

I wasn't surprised the other cop was guilty, but part of me suspected that the girl was a part of it to set up the other guy. I had seen the previews, but that ending startled me a bit. Reminded me of when Lewis had Olivia. I'm a bit surprised that we didn't have a scene with Rollins and Carisi at the end since they seem pretty close. 

[ForeverAlone]

I called the real rapist right from the get go (but that is just because the previews sort of showed the location where poor Carisi had a gun to his head), so it was interesting to see how the team got to that point. Poor Carisi covered in blood, but that seems to be a SVU rite of passage (though I would have liked to see a scene of him dealing with the aftermath with someone (not Olivia though)). As long as the writers don't turn him into an unstable rageball, we're good.

And I personally would have no issue if Olivia retired (or at least took on a role more akin to Cragen). But at least I didn't find her annoying or sanctimonious this episode. That at least mitigates zero Barba (one of the two reasons I keep watching this show faithfully).  I thought the story was overall pretty good, certainly better than many of the episodes earlier this season. Hopefully the season is on an uptick with its writing, because it was looking a bit grim at the beginning of the season, and I wasn't feeling it as much as the past few seasons. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by ForeverAlone

[Ms Blue Jay]

Hmm.  I never call the perp right away, so when I can do it, the writers made it far too obvious.  As soon as this ex-cop was introduced, the "scary music" set in.  Or the dramatic music, or whatever you want to call it.  The cues were all there.  Hmmph.  I'm surprised to see not many responses.  The show's been gone so long I don't even think people know it's back.

Stalking is such a serious fucking thing so I was kind of 'hoping' it would have been the stalker to bring more real attention to this very real phenomenon that so many women have to deal with.  The storyline was so convoluted with all these suspects to narrow down who the perp was.  This woman had a stalker, a 'temporary' stalker from work, a guy she was sort of seeing, and the ex-cop who thought he was saving her.  Why was the guy from work stalking her?  He couldn't believe she wasn't single?  FFS.

I have to say though, I guess I was liking this episode until the end which got too violent for me, but I have low standards for this show now.

You know, it's been years and years, so I figure, I'm never going to understand Kelli Giddish's acting.  Contrast Rollins with Finn where they're sussing out the cop.  Finn is natural and Rollins is so super awkward and so very obviously lying.  Is this intentional?

If you haven't, please read "The Gift of Fear", especially women.  I tell all women to read this book; it's such a good tool for everyone.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[chick binewski]

I love seeing Robert John Burke but I wish those dramatic state of the relationship talks were better written. Or that Olivia would act half interested.

Spoiler

RJB is scheduled for next week's episode when Olivia "questions her role as a mother" zzz. But the actress who played Quinn this week is also scheduled for an episode next month. Her character has a different last name so either she marries one of her stalkers or IMDB is wonky as usual.

[Gigi43]

Finn had some great deliveries tonight . "I'm good. What time did the damn meeting end?!"

 

Carisi has been my breath of fresh air they better not be sucking life out of him. Growth doesn't mean having a "darker " world view, Show! Barba continues to be considered a regular but is used as if he's recurring and it continues to bother the hell out of me. 

The case was okay.  I called the real perp in his first scene so that took away from it. Not okay with the stalker coworker being dismissed once he wasn't the attacker , stalking is a crime and I would imagine a red flag for future behavior since y'know most people do not go that far because it's so wrong. This time a boyfriend may have scared him off but what about the next girl he decides to spy on? At least the first stalker did do time and he seems to be on an okay path and the system is based on letting people out of jail to have another chance at living a right life after paying for a crime. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Gigi43

[Snookums]

Tucker can hang around in his skivvies around my place anytime. LIV. WAKE. UP.

[gesundheit]

I dug this one. I mean the "whodunit" aspect was shot the second Chris Bauer turned up (no way was he only going to be in one early scene), but hey, they made fun of annoying corporate-speak, Fin got some digs in, and Carisi was heavily featured. A decent return for the half-season!

[yogi2014L]

11 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

If you haven't, please read "The Gift of Fear", especially women.  I tell all women to read this book; it's such a good tool for everyone.

+1 ! The gift of fear is a must read. 

I did not enjoy this episode as much as I would have liked. It was ok. Mostly because it was super obvious from the beginning it was the cop. But Finn and Rollins both had me laughing. I am just happy SVU is back

Also, do not care at all about Liv and Tucker. Whatever!!! I do not want Liv to retire tho, but if I was her, I would. lol. 

[skittl3862]

I don't understand the logic of Tucker thinking Benson should retire with him. A. She's younger, B. She's a lower rank, so she still may want to progress, and C. Even if he wants to stop to smell the roses and explore, she has a child who is about to start school. They can't just pick up and fly to Paris whenever.

Also the dialogue in that scene was kinda cringey. I don't think SVU has ever done well with the romantic relationships- Stabler and wife, Amaro and wife, Benson and whoever. That's why they always resort to unhappy marriages. (They've also shown exactly one positive sex scene to approximately 400 rape scenes, but that's a whole different can of worms.) Benson and Tucker had more chemistry when they were discussing rape cases than when they're talking about their relationship. I don't need SVU to turn into a soap opera of Grey's proportions, but at least write a decent scene.

The coworker stalking her in a "not creepy" way could have been portrayed better. They made him out to be an actual creeper instead of a guy with a crush trying to figure out if she was single so he could ask her out. I know lots of people who "stalk" via social media, etc. because our generation puts everything out there. "This guy I like posted a Snapchat with this girl- do you think they're hooking up? They're following each other on Snapchat, but not on Instagram, so it can't be serious, right? And she's posting pics on her Instagram with this other guy and he commented with a kissy face emoji, so they're probably together." It's weird, but it's a reality. I don't think anyone these days would actually stake out someone's apartment and confront her boyfriend just to confirm if she's single, and I don't think this woman needed to have 3 separate stalkers.

Benson shooting the guy who had a gun to Carisi's head reminded me of Fault. When someone had a gun to Stabler's head and Benson didn't want to shoot and risk Stabler getting shot. Never really an EO shipper, but that episode always tugs a little. Apparently she doesn't feel the same about Carisi as she did about Stabler.

[wknt3]

The Good:

Solid acting from the guest cast as usual. Any of these roles could have become cheesy very easily, but nobody went OTT.
Finn. The writing was nothing special, but Ice T was killing it with the delivery.
Carisi. Both for the suit and for making the episode work. If not for PS's great work this would have been a train wreck.
It was an actual SVU case involving the whole squad behaving like highly trained professionals (well at least until the end).

The Bad:

St. Benson the Martyr cranked up to 11. We get it show. She is sooper special and dedicated and is the only cop who really understands the victims and will keep on going no matter what. But you know we've seen the previous seasons and all the talk about burnout and how the job does change you? We even remember Liv's PTSD. And let's not even mention the ninja sharpshooter nonsense at the end.
Another hostage situation? Really??? After about a million of these you would think they'd have learned their lesson about waiting for backup. Or at least about not giving the bad guy any chance to get behind you.
If you are going to beat us over the head with the whole retirement thing and Benson not being done yet, why not at least explore it a little more during the opening and give Burke something to do?
Just about everything involving Benson throughout this whole episode. The only thing that could have made her more annoying was if the found a way to do some Noah scenes.
No Barba.

So what we had was another solid episode that could have been really good if Mariska could put aside her ego for an episode. Which seems to sum up the season so far. It wasn't as good as the last couple before the break, since the whole multiple suspects that don't really fool anyone, protector is really the stalker, hostage situation finale story just isn't that great to begin with, but it's still frustrating to see even limited potential squandered by an ego trip.

Edited January 5, 2017 by wknt3
fix formatting, revise and extend Benson bashing

[Gigglepuff]

With each passing episode Liv becomes more and more annoying and her incompetence as a cop and especially a leader is obvious. Why would she and Carisi walk into a hostage situation alone, again?? Who comes up with this stuff? Do the writers know the slightest thing about police procedure? Years ago an actual police inspector that I knew once told me that the most of the SVU squad should have been fired many, many times over. I'm positive he was right. Anyway, how does Liv think it's OK to walk into a situation like only months after the death of one of her detectives? In a similar situation yet? Seriously Liv? God, I didn't think it was possible for me to dislike her less than I did before, but yeah, it happened. 

And as far as Tucker goes....who cares. I kind of thought Liv was being her usual cold bitchy self when she was all surprised that Tucker was thinking about retirement. Why so surprised? Because someone wants to move on with life? Or someone that actually has a life maybe? I know a lot of people approaching retirement age, and  many of them say exactly what Tucker did, that they look forward to doing nothing for a while. Liv, not everyone wants to work right up till the day they die, and not everyone defines themselves solely by their career. But if Liv were to ever retire, who would then save the world? There'd be no one. No one!!!  And yeah, yeah, Liv probably doesn't have enough years of service to retire, but of course, the show has to make another character's issue all about her. Anyone who has spent decades in a career knows damn well that you can't just "retire," you have to have a combination of age plus years of service in order to qualify for pension, and Ed would know that. But again, they made his possible retirement about Liv, just like they make everything about her. Anyway, Liv, move on from Tucker, it's not working. Actually, I hope he dumps her. Let her define herself forever as a cop and savior. 

 

Aside from that, the episode was just meh for me. Nice to see more Fin, we need to see more of him. Rollins and Carisi actually didn't bug, so that's good. Oh, and since when can Barba issue arrest warrants? 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Gigglepuff

[slowpoked]

12 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

Finn had some great deliveries tonight . "I'm good. What time did the damn meeting end?!"

 

Hee! That was my favorite part of the episode. The woman would not stop talking about Jesus but poor Finn only wants to know ONE. THING.

Actually, a lot of the people the cops talked to last night didn't seem to answer the simplest questions directly. Seems odd (at least to me) that all of them seemed crammed into one episode.

[gryphon]

Quote

Finn. The writing was nothing special, but Ice T was killing it with the delivery.

Another Fin quote:  "Congratulations. You're a disrupter."  (re: the Millennials) 

He and Barba have been one of the big reasons I watch the show for some time.  I heart them both.

[JyDanzig]

5 hours ago, slowpoked said:

Actually, a lot of the people the cops talked to last night didn't seem to answer the simplest questions directly. Seems odd (at least to me) that all of them seemed crammed into one episode.

Yeah, the story itself was fine, but the actual writing of this episode was terrible.  So many beats were presented in such false and contrived fashion.  The church-y types who couldn't engage in a simple dialogue, the tortured rationale of the various stalkers, the clunky introduction of the criminal cop and his wife, the awkwardness of all Benson's personal reflections, the shapelessness of the work at the consulting firm.  I felt bad for the cast, regular and guest.  It's hard to perform when the writing is this muddy & unnatural.

Another notably bad episode bearing the writing credit of the new showrunner.  I love this show, but this is a bad sign for the rest of the season.

Edited January 5, 2017 by JyDanzig

[wknt3]

5 hours ago, Gigglepuff said:

With each passing episode Liv becomes more and more annoying and her incompetence as a cop and especially a leader is obvious. Why would she and Carisi walk into a hostage situation alone, again?? Who comes up with this stuff? Do the writers know the slightest thing about police procedure? Years ago an actual police inspector that I knew once told me that the most of the SVU squad should have been fired many, many times over. I'm positive he was right. Anyway, how does Liv think it's OK to walk into a situation like only months after the death of one of her detectives? In a similar situation yet? Seriously Liv? God, I didn't think it was possible for me to dislike her less than I did before, but yeah, it happened.

But she's an amazing cop and a great leader! They tell us every damn episode! Yeah that hostage situation really bugged me. I would have had no problem with the perp killing himself or committing suicide by cop, but it was just glaringly obvious this time. At least in the past they've made some effort at contrived circumstances for why they had to go in alone. And I am in full agreement that they just keep finding ways to make Benson more annoying. It's particularly annoying that they insist on her doing everything in the field as well as running the sas there is precedent within the franchise for how to deal with this. Jack McCoy got promoted and they managed to keep Sam Waterston as the star without having him drafting briefs and arguing every case. Have Benson do more interrogations and visit victims more than previous COs and show us more of the office politics, CompStat meetings, etc. that were usually handled offscreen before. You get new stories and keep it believable!
 

Quote

And as far as Tucker goes....who cares. I kind of thought Liv was being her usual cold bitchy self when she was all surprised that Tucker was thinking about retirement. Why so surprised? Because someone wants to move on with life? Or someone that actually has a life maybe? I know a lot of people approaching retirement age, and  many of them say exactly what Tucker did, that they look forward to doing nothing for a while. Liv, not everyone wants to work right up till the day they die, and not everyone defines themselves solely by their career. But if Liv were to ever retire, who would then save the world? There'd be no one. No one!!!  And yeah, yeah, Liv probably doesn't have enough years of service to retire, but of course, the show has to make another character's issue all about her. Anyone who has spent decades in a career knows damn well that you can't just "retire," you have to have a combination of age plus years of service in order to qualify for pension, and Ed would know that. But again, they made his possible retirement about Liv, just like they make everything about her. Anyway, Liv, move on from Tucker, it's not working. Actually, I hope he dumps her. Let her define herself forever as a cop and savior. 

Actually she probably does have the years of service unless she made detective in less than 2 years. I'm pretty sure she has her 25 too which is better. She's probably too young to completely retire both financially (50-60% of salary plus whatever savings she has with a kid in NYC is tough) and in terms of still wanting to work, but she could easily retire from the force, collect her pension and find other work that offers a little more chance for balance. And yes it would have been nice to see a little bit more of Tucker's POV. Maybe the new unit isn't what he thought it would be. Maybe he thinks it off to a good start and he's going to let someone else take it over now. Maybe it's just time. But that would mean letting a supporting character be right. Or at least something other than a way to see what a special snowflake Benson is.

 

38 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

 the shapelessness of the work at the consulting firm. 

Actually that felt all too real to me. Of course as someone who has clients in the business and has sat through some of their presentations in my previous job I have often felt that these firms are implausibly written and filled with unbelievable characters. The only question was were they intended as comedy or drama...

[mtlchick]

For a guy who was killed off as a regular last season on Sleepy Hollow, Zach Appleman has been busy; he was on this, Blue Bloods and Bull this season alone! 

 

Outside of that...eh.  Too paint by numbers, even for them. At least Finn had some good lines. 

[CleoCaesar]

I liked this one. I was actually really worried about my dear Carisi. Can these fools stop walking into hostage situations?

I thought the case would have the twist of Quinn planting fake evidence to put her stalker away for good (perhaps with the help of an accomplice who would get the cigarette?) but I suppose the logistics don't work there.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

 . . . and I don't think this woman needed to have 3 separate stalkers. . . .

It's 5 if you count:

1. the guy from college who went to prison and got religion
2. the ex who punched. . .
3. . . . the smitten coworker
4. the smitten bartender
5. the retired cop

[Ms Blue Jay]

I still agree it's 3 separate stalkers.  The Bartender and her love interest were just men who liked her.

[Packerbrewerbadger]

I wish SVU would feel bad about college stalker losing his job and that they showed them going to his boss and explaining he should have his job back. 

[MaggieG]

12 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

I liked this one. I was actually really worried about my dear Carisi. Can these fools stop walking into hostage situations?

Seriously. WAIT FOR BACKUP!

[JyDanzig]

3 hours ago, Packerbrewerbadger said:

I wish SVU would feel bad about college stalker losing his job and that they showed them going to his boss and explaining he should have his job back. 

It was more a trait of the Neal Baer years, but ruining the lives of uninvolved bystanders is what the SVU squad does better than anything else!  This one I thought was pretty mild -- at least this guy was guilty of A crime, if not this week's crime, and he could get another job.  Usually the life ruinings are irreversible, and the victims completely innocent of anything other than Benson or Stabler not liking them.

[Monkeybball]

Could not believe how painfully obvious it was that the cop who was "protecting" her was the doer.  The creepily close relationship was a dead giveaway.  I agree with whoever said earlier that it would have been an interesting sort of "PSA" for the stalker to be the rapist, showing how stalking is a really serious crime, but it would have been lacking in the drama I GUESS.

I actually loved Amanda and Finn sussing out the cop.  I usually feel like when they do it they make it super obvious, but this time it didn't feel that way.  Reminded me of when Carisi and Amaro did it with the dentist/uncle/rapist in S16.

This is a comment that is going to get me so much hate, but I have to say it - the dialogue in SVU episodes is SO. FREAKING. AWKWARD. when it comes to describing the looks of women.  They described this Quinn girl as being SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO beautiful (and she was a pretty girl) but not necessarily the kind of girl I'd expect that reaction from guys about.  I was watching Design from S5 and Bobby Flay describes the girl who's a con-artist like so: "With a body like that, worth every penny!"  Again, that girl was gorgeous, but pretty normal looking.  It's so creepy when they do this in episodes.  It's also odd because in the real world, the ultra-beautiful aren't by and large the victims of these kinds of crimes.  This kind of stuff can happen to ANYBODY.  

[psychoticstate]

As soon as I saw Chris Bauer's name in the opening credits, I figured he would be the perp.

@Monkeybball, I thought the same thing while watching.  The girl playing Quinn was pretty but the bartender said she was the center of attention, all the men wanted her, so pretty, etc.  Huh?  Again, she's pretty but based on the dialogue, you'd expect someone who is drop dead gorgeous. 

I am absolutely, positively, 100% in love with Carisi. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Carisi looked unusually thin to me. Hope the actor's okay.

[devious455]

This episode had no suspense and couldn't hold my attention. I also guessed the perp immediately. When I see Tuckson I start to worry if I will have such unromantic relationship in older age. Because somebody shoot me then. Or maybe it's just them. The Olivia drama is also tedious because we all know she won't retire. 

Unpopular opinion: I don't understand that over-glorification of Carisi's character on social medias and in the show. He doesn't strike me as a lead actor/lead character material. The standards must be very low if they are trying to make him that. They fundamentally change his character every so often and I simply can't get behind inconsistent writing. I think that if he wouldn't be conventionally somehow good looking, 90% of people wouldn't give a damn about him.  

I'm also over all those hostage crises scenes that are basically the same with different characters, sometimes with different results. I'm over cops who can't wait for backup but need to play heroes. I'm over the fact that Barba is never put into spotlight and his or Fin's outside of work stories don't get followups and they are not lasting more than two minutes. I don't like the direction this show has chosen at all. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by devious455

[Packerbrewerbadger]

On January 6, 2017 at 1:04 PM, JyDanzig said:

It was more a trait of the Neal Baer years, but ruining the lives of uninvolved bystanders is what the SVU squad does better than anything else!  This one I thought was pretty mild -- at least this guy was guilty of A crime, if not this week's crime, and he could get another job.  Usually the life ruinings are irreversible, and the victims completely innocent of anything other than Benson or Stabler not liking them.

Totally agree!  And it's always because they hurry and arrest someone early on with no evidence, wreck their lives ( many times they are physically beaten) , and then arrest the right person.  This one just struck me because a phone call could have fixed it. 

[CelticBlackCat]

This return-from-winter-break epi held my attention, although I wasn't too thrilled to know Tucker's retirement thoughts were going to be a feature of the story.  Olivia does not seem to be madly in love with him, or even remotely that much in like with him.  We know Benson isn't going to retire with Tucker, and walk off holding hands into the sunset with Noah by their side.  If Tucker retires and stays with Olivia (I hope she acts more excited to be with him at home), then he's going to be Noah's full-time babysitter, under the guise of (1) What else does he have to do now but bond with Noah and (2) Noah needs a strong father figure.

The best parts of this epi was Finn's lines and Carisi.  I said to my TV, if they kill off Carisi, I am done with you Show!  I too am so sick of hostage of the week storylines.

I called it that Cole was the rapist.  I guess that's OK since the show isn't billed as a mystery.

[JyDanzig]

8 hours ago, devious455 said:

This episode had no suspense and couldn't hold my attention. I also guessed the perp immediately. When I see Tuckson I start to worry if I will have such unromantic relationship in older age. Because somebody shoot me then. Or maybe it's just them. The Olivia drama is also tedious because we all know she won't retire. 

What they should have done with Tuckson is barely let us see them together, but just portrayed Benson as happily coupled.  Her character has more than enough angst, with her various Crusades For Justice, always being taken hostage, battles with corrupt city bureaucracy, and perpetually imperiled child.  She doesn't NEED to have relationship troubles on top of all of that!  Just let her have something to be happy about!

They could have kept it to three appearances a year from Tucker.  One episode where he goes with her to one of those weird SVU parties they have from time to time, one episode where he is involved in some drama on the job that pulls in Benson, and one episode where he shows up on the scene to worry about her fate when she's taken hostage or abducted again.

But now they've shown us too many lifeless, no-chemistry scenes, so they have to just pull the plug on it. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by JyDanzig

[devious455]

4 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

What they should have done with Tuckson is barely let us see them together, but just portrayed Benson as happily coupled. 

I understand your point but I have a different idea. What about giving her a partner she would have some chemistry with? Or a partner who would actually make sense within the show and characters they are writing for years? Or a partner who has no ties to the police force and therefore there is no conflict of interest and additional drama? I'm all for Benson being happy. I'm not for making her date somebody she hated three years ago. It's not good for her character, she went through a lot and she deserves somebody better. Not just washed out version of a person who made her life miserable for years. 

4 hours ago, JyDanzig said:

They could have kept it to three appearances a year from Tucker. 

Maybe if people weren't harassing creators about wanting more of them. 

Quote

But now they've shown us too many lifeless, no-chemistry scenes, so they have to just pull the plug on it. 

Or they will pull a "great twist" and make him propose to her. At this point anything is possible on this show. 

[JyDanzig]

2 hours ago, devious455 said:

I understand your point but I have a different idea. What about giving her a partner she would have some chemistry with?

You are certainly right that that would be better!  I realize I was giving up hope of this ever happening, thinking to myself that Mariska was just never going to have good relationship chemistry with anyone long-term... I feel like similar things happened in her pairings with Hayden and Cassidy, the initial getting-together scenes are intriguing, and then the life just drains out of it so quickly.  So I was ready to give up and largely cut away from the relationship, once established.  But hopefully they do find someone who's a better match down the line (assuming this pair does in fact break up).

2 hours ago, devious455 said:

I'm not for making her date somebody she hated three years ago. It's not good for her character, she went through a lot and she deserves somebody better. Not just washed out version of a person who made her life miserable for years. 

I did think they did a weirdly good job with navigating this aspect of it, the redemption of Tucker.  For me it worked, and I was highly skeptical when I first realized they were heading that way.  And I suppose I was already trained to simply ignore the excesses of the later Neal Baer years.  I remember thinking then that the show had been taken beyond the point of no return -- they had all become such consistently terrible cops, insufferably judgmental and aggressively incompetent.  I felt the characters had been damaged so severely there was no writing your way out of it anymore.  One of WL's best insights was that he didn't even try -- he just started (mostly) writing them as the competent detectives they were always supposed to be, and then that became the new reality of the series.

Edited January 8, 2017 by JyDanzig

[devious455]

34 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

I realize I was giving up hope of this ever happening, thinking to myself that Mariska was just never going to have good relationship chemistry with anyone long-term... 

I feel that the only way is to let her date somebody without any previous connection to her work and let that relationship happen mostly offscreen and without pointless drama. 

34 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

I did think they did a weirdly good job with navigating this aspect of it, the redemption of Tucker.  For me it worked, and I was highly skeptical when I first realized they were heading that way. 

I'm sorry but I haven't seen anything close to redemption of Tucker towards Olivia. He saved her life during a hostage situation. I hope she didn't start dating him after that because she was thankful to him. Tucker was transformed into completely different person he was even during Leight's years. Olivia strongly warned Nick that Tucker is going after their badges in 14x15, he almost caused Cassidy's death in 15x04, he made some weird remark about sexual violence' victims in front of her in I'm sure which episode. And then he asked her to drink a year later. Did something else happened between the two of them that was supposed to redeem him before they started dating? 

35 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

One of WL's best insights was that he didn't even try -- he just started (mostly) writing them as the competent detectives they were always supposed to be, and then that became the new reality of the series.

I don't feel the same way. All characters during WL's years showed larger amount of incompetency that would normally be tolerated in real life or any job really. But there were aspects of the show he improved, I have to give him that. I'm still not sure if I miss him or not because I had very mixed feelings about season 17. 

[auntiemel]

I third the opinion of the people who felt there was a disconnect between the looks of the actress and the way the character's looks were described in the dialogue. I had a serious Ann-from-Arrested-Development-style "Her?" moment. :)

[WineCheeseChocolat]

On 1/8/2017 at 5:19 AM, devious455 said:

Tucker was transformed into completely different person he was even during Leight's years. Olivia strongly warned Nick that Tucker is going after their badges in 14x15, he almost caused Cassidy's death in 15x04, he made some weird remark about sexual violence' victims in front of her in I'm sure which episode. And then he asked her to drink a year later. Did something else happened between the two of them that was supposed to redeem him before they started dating? 

Tuckerson has never rang true to me because of the the above. Him almost getting Cassidy killed was inexcusable (and fairly recent). And he's said some pretty awful things to Benson over the years, like slut-shaming her over dating that reporter in S9 and throwing her PTSD in her face in S11. He was decent to her after Lewis' death and had a semi-Hallmark moment with Amaro in the episode where he accidentally shot the unarmed kid (although forcing Cassidy to interrogate the partner/employee of the woman he was living with was amazingly unprofessional and obviously done because Tucker got his kicks making everyone squirm). Then all of the sudden they're getting flirty drinks, then they're one big happy family with Noah?

i also think Benson is only dating him as a) a father figure to Noah, and b) she doesn't want to date outside the department because then she'd have to get into her violent history/PTSD with someone who has no context.

[devious455]

42 minutes ago, WineCheeseChocolat said:

b) she doesn't want to date outside the department because then she'd have to get into her violent history/PTSD with someone who has no context.

This is amazing point. I've never thought about that. But I still find it a little disturbing that he had a full access to her personal file. He could have seen her psych eval results, her rape kit results and lots of confidential information. He probably found out a lot about her during all those years he was after SVU. So it rubs me in the wrong way. A creepy way. She had a problem to trust him but all of the sudden she trusted him with her life and wasn't hesitate to put her reputation at stake for him. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me. Even though I don't think they will break them up, if it happens let it be for some better reason than he wants to retire and she doesn't. Like some dirt from the past should bite him in the ass. They should actually acknowledge their complicated relationship in the past rather than to continue pretending that it was only work related and it doesn't matter anymore. 

[wknt3]

On 1/7/2017 at 1:44 PM, devious455 said:

Unpopular opinion: I don't understand that over-glorification of Carisi's character on social medias and in the show. He doesn't strike me as a lead actor/lead character material. The standards must be very low if they are trying to make him that. They fundamentally change his character every so often and I simply can't get behind inconsistent writing. I think that if he wouldn't be conventionally somehow good looking, 90% of people wouldn't give a damn about him.  . 

Here is my explanation for why Carisi is so popular. It's pretty simple. He is good looking. He is different. Peter Scanavino is a good actor. I will expand a bit on the last couple points. He was a much needed change of pace. After years of unrelenting darkness he was a bit of light. He wasn't tortured, wasn't hiding any dark secrets, and wasn't a repeat of Stabler. Yeah there was a bit a rough beginning where they played up the goofball aspects and the differences with the squad a bit too much, but that is nothing new for the L&O franchise. I am much more interested in watching a relatively young detective do his best to solve cases and deal with the stress of being part of the unit than I am in watching a repeat of the rage issues story or seeing someone relentlessly engage in stupid self destructive behavior that should get them fired. And as I said I think that PS gives a very fine performance most of the time. In this very episode in fact he kept it on the tracks. Is he lead material? Who knows. The character was never intended as a lead - there is only one lead allowed on this show and everyone else is supporting. But he is a good actor playing an interesting character who was lucky to come in at the right time and is good looking and well dressed. It's the same reason most of us like Barba actually.

[devious455]

wknt3, I respect your opinion but I simply don't find him to be anything special. I don't want to offend anybody here. But I don't find him attractive, I'm going to say it, I don't even find him to be a very good actor. He is very ordinary. In a sense that there is nothing distinctive on him. He looks and acts like every other guy in any series ever. Yet people call him acting God, the best character ever and I don't know what. To each their own but I don't see it. I don't find Carisi to be a very different character either. He started that way but soon was reduced to a pretty, popular guy who is great at everything and has his own resident fangirl in Rollins (who really didn't deserve this). He became a lead detective a year after being a cop no unit wanted, he was insensitive, he had no empathy, no style but he "grew" them overnight. He became a fan favorite because he simply has no flaws anymore. Who wouldn't love guy like that, right? I get it but I simply don't see him as a worthwhile character who should have so much screentime. Also I think this recurring dilemma whether he wants to be a lawyer or detective got old already and it hasn't even ended I guess. I'm not invested in him. He is just there, sometimes being obnoxious, sometimes being boring, sometimes being too perfect.  

I don't miss the rage issues other male characters had. I don't even miss them. But Carisi is not an adequate replacement of strong and layered lead male character for me. People enjoy him and that's fine. I simply want something else. Like Barba, actually doing something and having a development he sorely lacks. Or a new detective who will be able to tell Benson to STFU sometimes :) A girl can dream. 

[Snookums]

Quote

 This woman had a stalker, a 'temporary' stalker from work, a guy she was sort of seeing, and the ex-cop who thought he was saving her.  Why was the guy from work stalking her?  He couldn't believe she wasn't single?  FFS.

Good God, this poor woman: every single man in her life was apparently making string art collages of her in their closets and building underground bunkers for the honeymoon! If I was her I'd go live on an island and surround my rustic cabin with bear traps.

So DUH the cop did it and I get the angle they were going for--Liv's worried about what she'd do, would the demons overwhelm her if she didn't have the framework of Being One Of The Good Guys in active place, could she handle all that time (I bet Lucy The World's Most Patient Babysitter would be thrilled to have a day off, though!) and so on, but I wish they'd got even a smidgen into what made the guy suddenly go off the deep end in the first place.

Usually with a Bad Cop scenario they have a scene where they interview his former colleagues and find out he was rough with prisoners, or got too into "helping" prostitutes, or had money troubles or SOMETHING, but apparently this guy had a least unexceptional record for his entire career and then ramps it up to KIDNAP AND KILL out of nowhere? What triggered this? If he's such a predator why did it focus on this benighted young woman who just wants to sell overpriced soda to dumb twentysomethings and get on with her life? Baur did a good job with what he had to work with but still, the message I got was "the second you stop working you are going to melt down into a twisted pile of psychoses and rage, so drop in your tracks or get a bullet to the head."

As for Tuckson: AGAIN with Liv being weirded out by the idea that a man who is dating her might want to spend time with her! And frankly, I blame a lot of this on how the writers perceive Olivia. Because it's not like she's wrong to think about what it would mean to take on two huge life changes at once: even if she doesn't want to retire (and Tucker never asked her to, he was talking about himself), that would be a huge shift in their relationship dynamic. And he clearly wants more from said relationship, but so far their entire way of dealing with each other has been as two cops. So if he's retired and wanting her to commit in a new way to "them," how will that change things? Will he not want her to talk about work, ever? How long before he really starts to itch about travelling and hobbies and stuff she's currently too busy running around from crime scene to crime scene to do? THESE ARE HUGE DEALS. IT'S NOT WRONG FOR A PERSON TO FEEL STRANGE AND UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT THEM. Especially when you are a driven career woman in a tough field.

But the showrunners make Liv perpetually twelve years old about this stuff! She deflects, she twitches, she squirms, she talks or shuts down convos about the relationship with everybody BUT TUCKER, whom she won't even look at when he says stuff like "I want to be with you" or even "maybe not look at your cell while I'm bringing up a huge life change?" This is a grown woman who has handled far worse stuff than a man being in love with and wanting a life with her. It really undermines her character to have her behave like this.

[sockii]

23 hours ago, devious455 said:

wknt3, I respect your opinion but I simply don't find him to be anything special. I don't want to offend anybody here. But I don't find him attractive, I'm going to say it, I don't even find him to be a very good actor. He is very ordinary. In a sense that there is nothing distinctive on him. He looks and acts like every other guy in any series ever. Yet people call him acting God, the best character ever and I don't know what. To each their own but I don't see it.

Neither do I, so I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. I get that he's somehow traditionally attractive but to my eyes he's just bland and kind of doughy-looking. I think I'd enjoy him character-wise with a more interesting partner or counter-part; someone who might play up his quirkiness instead of making him the heart of a bunch of ugly shipping wars and swooning on social media every time his lips quiver or he bares a forearm. (I would love to have seen Munch & him interacting, Munch probably goofing on him much the way he did with Cassidy in season 1...)

[wknt3]

5 hours ago, sockii said:

Neither do I, so I'm glad to know I'm not the only one. I get that he's somehow traditionally attractive but to my eyes he's just bland and kind of doughy-looking. I think I'd enjoy him character-wise with a more interesting partner or counter-part; someone who might play up his quirkiness instead of making him the heart of a bunch of ugly shipping wars and swooning on social media every time his lips quiver or he bares a forearm. (I would love to have seen Munch & him interacting, Munch probably goofing on him much the way he did with Cassidy in season 1...)

I would enjoy EVERYONE more if they added another character to interact with who would allow them to display all the aspects of their personalities. I actually like all the characters except Benson (and I do still like her sometimes), except when they decide to a story about Rollin's past or family (they rebooted her for a reason!) but there is a desperate need for another voice and someone else for the characters to play off of. Even if it was something like last year where they did it as more of a recurring character it would be better than what they have now. Of course that would mean not having Benson do everything herself and possibly having to do some actual writing for Fin so I'm not too hopeful.

Edited January 10, 2017 by wknt3

[skittl3862]

On 1/8/2017 at 4:40 AM, JyDanzig said:

You are certainly right that that would be better!  I realize I was giving up hope of this ever happening, thinking to myself that Mariska was just never going to have good relationship chemistry with anyone long-term... I feel like similar things happened in her pairings with Hayden and Cassidy, the initial getting-together scenes are intriguing, and then the life just drains out of it so quickly.  So I was ready to give up and largely cut away from the relationship, once established.  But hopefully they do find someone who's a better match down the line (assuming this pair does in fact break up).

I think the only person Mariska has had great chemistry with is Chris Meloni. And I say this as a non-EO shipper. Benson and Stabler are kind of legendary, second only to maybe Mulder and Scully. Every boyfriend character on the show has paled in comparison to the (non-romantic) connection we saw between those characters for years, but it's kind of unfair to hold Robert John Burke or Dean Winters to the standard one of of the best male-female pairings in TV history.

 

On 1/8/2017 at 5:19 AM, devious455 said:

I feel that the only way is to let her date somebody without any previous connection to her work and let that relationship happen mostly offscreen and without pointless drama.

They tried that for 12 years. The off-screen "Darn, I have to cancel my date" relationships. They didn't even give the men names- they'd have some flippant "How's the boyfriend?" reference. It was half-assed and just made Olivia come across as sad and perpetually single. The first time we saw a boyfriend onscreen was Closet in season 9- and only because it related to their case. I agree we don't need the onscreen drama. I'd be fine with the occasional brief at-home scene with a boyfriend without a heavy focus on their relationship- like the scene with Olivia and Tucker having dessert at the bar and commenting on the dumb reality show. I don't know why they couldn't do that with Tucker instead of inventing relationship drama.

 

Quote

I'm sorry but I haven't seen anything close to redemption of Tucker towards Olivia. He saved her life during a hostage situation. I hope she didn't start dating him after that because she was thankful to him. Tucker was transformed into completely different person he was even during Leight's years. Olivia strongly warned Nick that Tucker is going after their badges in 14x15, he almost caused Cassidy's death in 15x04, he made some weird remark about sexual violence' victims in front of her in I'm sure which episode. And then he asked her to drink a year later. Did something else happened between the two of them that was supposed to redeem him before they started dating? 

I disagree. I don't think Tucker was ever so terrible that he would need to crawl on his belly across hot coals to make it up to Benson. He showed up twice a year when a victim was physically harmed in SVU custody. He could be a jerk, but the SVU characters made him out to be Snidely Whiplash twirling his mustache with this raging vendetta, instead of an investigator who has to explain to 1PP and the media why a healthy young suspect died while Stabler cuffed him, or why Rollins shot and killed her sister's boyfriend, or why Amaro jumped into a hot pursuit while off-duty and shot an unarmed black kid. It's not like he launched an investigation because Stabler submitted gas receipts on days when he used the car for personal reasons.

From my perspective, there was a shift after Post-Mortem Blues. I think after Olivia stands by her story, even when he gives her the easy out of claiming she killed Lewis in self defense, he respects her in a way he didn't at the beginning of the episode. Their interactions in Season 16 reflect a thawing in their relationship. By the end of the season, he's suggesting she go for lieutenant to be able to keep SVU and giving her advice about Amaro- like a "rabbi"- a superior that she can go to for advice. Then in Community Policing, she comes by to let him know personally that the cops he's investigating killed an innocent person. It was a mutually beneficial work relationship by the time Townhouse Incident happened, so it's not like they never interacted onscreen between Perverted when he investigated her for murder, and Manhattan Transfer, when Barba figures out they're sleeping together.

I'm fine with the development of the romantic relationship taking place predominantly off-screen, and us seeing the highlights- the first drink, the case that involves him, the time where he stood by her when her colleague was shot. For me, the real issue is why did Warren Leight wait until literally his final episode after 4 years in control to establish a serious relationship with Benson, and then expect the new showrunner to honor that?

Edited January 10, 2017 by skittl3862

[devious455]

skittl3862, you make some very good points. I admit that I'm biased against them because this whole thing didn't sit well with me from the beginning. I understand that he had a job to do and most of their animosity wasn't personal. But she is not very good at distinguishing between work and personal stuff. Barba disagrees with her on a work thing, she takes it personally and stops talking to him for a month. And she wasn't even affected by his actions personally. Like in Community Policing. But Tucker gets a free pass after he went after her and her unit for years. I find this part of their relationship to be probably the least believable. I know he changed. It happened gradually but it was mostly work related. So I can easily believe that she respected him when it came to work when he was still IAB. But there is still something missing between that and her developing romantic feelings and trust for him. I would use few scenes from the beginning of the relationship. Or at least a clear confirmation when it actually started :). We jumped into an established relationship without a better understanding why from all men she chose him. It's probably easier to understand that for people who find him attractive in any way though.

I still think it wasn't worthy though. We got few IMO not very romantic, not very believable, sometimes even cold scenes between two people who don't look like a still fairly new couple. So let's say it was an interesting idea but the execution lacks. And it caused lot of fights, ship wars, hate, now people attack the producers and writers on twitter because of it. I was a fan of mostly off-screen relationships. If it's not working on screen, why push it. Give her some guy, give them few cute scenes here and there, no drama. Case closed. Less Olivia the better.  

1 hour ago, skittl3862 said:

For me, the real issue is why did Warren Leight wait until literally his final episode after 4 years in control to establish a serious relationship with Benson, and then expect the new showrunner to honor that?

He made her date Tucker from all people. For all that criticism he constantly got from SVU 1.0 fans it feels almost like a revenge :D Who knows what Eid is going to do with it. A proposal maybe or a breakup. Or more meaningless scenes. We'll be wiser tomorrow.

[skittl3862]

I'll admit I'm probably biased towards Tucker because I think Robert John Burke is a total DILF. :) But I also never saw Tucker as the crazed Javert who spends his life targeting the SVU detectives, like Olivia described him to Amaro in Deadly Ambition. From our real world of Sandra Blands and Freddie Greys, I don't think Tucker investigating a suspect's death in police custody makes him the bad guy.

I liked the idea of Olivia and Tucker together, but I don't think the show has handled their romantic relationship well at all. Like you said, give Olivia a guy and give them few cute scenes and no drama. But the writers managed to botch it. I don't think SVU has that much steam left, so I'm not sure why they can't leave well-enough alone with Olivia's personal life and let this be it. I guess we'll see.

[devious455]

2 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

From our real world of Sandra Blands and Freddie Greys, I don't think Tucker investigating a suspect's death in police custody makes him the bad guy.

I don't see IAB as villains or anything like that. They are an essential part of the police force. But make my boyfriend go undercover and then blow his cover so his life is at stake. Well no, I don't want to have a drink with you. And you can be DILF or whatever, man :). I mean, over the years there was more between Tucker and Olivia that can't be reduced into "he was just doing his job". She was personally affected by his actions. So I would be ok with her being with literally anybody else who would be nice to her, but what can I do now :). 

[JyDanzig]

On 1/10/2017 at 9:07 AM, wknt3 said:

I would enjoy EVERYONE more if they added another character to interact with who would allow them to display all the aspects of their personalities. I actually like all the characters except Benson (and I do still like her sometimes), except when they decide to a story about Rollin's past or family (they rebooted her for a reason!) but there is a desperate need for another voice and someone else for the characters to play off of. Even if it was something like last year where they did it as more of a recurring character it would be better than what they have now. Of course that would mean not having Benson do everything herself and possibly having to do some actual writing for Fin so I'm not too hopeful.

So true.  I like every character on the show right now, but it just feels short.  They need one more cop in that squadroom.

Though, I prefer the current state of affairs to the last two Amaro seasons, when they clearly couldn't afford the full cast and almost every episode had at least one regular absent.  But I have to imagine there's another Scanavino out there -- by which I mean someone interesting, good, and young/new enough to not already have a huge quote.

Edited January 11, 2017 by JyDanzig

[sockii]

I feel like the show has been suffering from cast budget limitations for a long time, not just the last 2 Amaro seasons. Like, at least going  back to s13 and when it seemed like they couldn't ever afford to have Florek and Belzer in the same episode together, if not before then. 

It's funny because for a while I wanted to see them refocus on the core crew left this season. But now it's painfully obvious how much they need some fresh blood and it feels like both a budgetary limitation and Hagarty insisting that Benson be front and center in all episodes, no matter how unrealistic that may be for a command lieutenant. (I mean, hello, just compare Benson today to the position Van Buren had in the mothership. It makes no sense beyond actor ego for Benson to be constantly out in the field at this point.)