S03.E05: Episode 5

[Quiche]

I have hated Season 3 completely, until Episode 5.  I watch "The Affair" because of the relationship between Noah and Allison, the main characters.  I give the Cole actor kudos, but I do not watch for him.  And I certainly do not watch for Helen and her boring sex affairs.  

I watch for Noah and Allison, and I am disappointed that they are divorced.  I love Episode 5 because it represents perfectly what "The Affair" is suppose to be about.  It is not about Noah and a French woman or about Helen or about Cole.  I did like Helen and Cole having their POVs, but only to a certain point.  

I loved the trip to Block Island, the time they spent together and Noah saying that he is her husband.  I'm not so thrilled with the prison scenes or the Gunther story/hallucination.  

I think it was important for Noah to tell Allison that he loves her.  I think Allison is mistaken about her own feelings.  I thought Noah's interpretation of Cole was intriguing, about how Cole will never regard Allison as more than "damaged goods".  I think Noah is correct about that.  In fact, it takes quite a bit of the shine off the Cole character.  How soon we forget that he was a drug dealer and part of a criminal family.  The custody judge should know about his past.

If they think they can switch out Allison for this French woman, then they are mistaken.  And I am not interested in Helen and her lover.  I'm afraid that Episode 5 is the last time we will see Noah and Allison together in Season 3.  And if this is true, then I rather see the series ended.

[jrlr]

7 hours ago, CarolMK said:

I read something in an interview with Sarah Treem and she said originally she felt that the Affair would have 3 seasons. She also said something to the effect that in some storylines, they'd painted themselves into a corner. So I'm wondering if this is really going to be the last season. The entire story seems all over the place, especially with introducing the French professor this year. 

I've stopped watching but keep coming back here to read what people are saying - I think it's like scratching an itch even though you already irritated the area!  Anyway, the 3 eps I watched before giving up have made me think Treem is full of b.s.  Yes, I know she's been saying since the beginning that she envisioned this as a 3-year series, but I cannot believe that anyone with the talent to come up with that really compelling first season could have thought this poiintless drek up before the series even started.  The story has devolved into the kind of murky, soap operatic idiocy that the show so carefully avoided in season 1.  I just watched an old Sally Field movie called Soapdish, which is a hysterically funny send-up of soaps, and as the characters agonized over doing an impromptu but lifesaving  brain transplant in a restaurant I kept thinking, is this where The Affair is headed?

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

 How soon we forget that he was a drug dealer and part of a criminal family.  The custody judge should know about his past.

Considering Alison's complicity in assisting in the drug dealing, it probably wouldn't help her case to try to use that against Cole, unless she's looking to have Joanie taken from both them. Hell Noah, as she pointed out last season, painted her as a cold drug pusher in his book. 

Quote

I thought Noah's interpretation of Cole was intriguing, about how Cole will never regard Allison as more than "damaged goods".  I think Noah is correct about that.  In fact, it takes quite a bit of the shine off the Cole character. 

Except Noah is hardly the best person to judge anything about Cole's feelings and what he may or may not think about Alison. The fact is Noah doesn't know Cole, despite the many ways their lives have intertwined and similarly Cole doesn't really know Noah. These two people have never ever sat and had a real conversation together, really ever gotten to know each other beyond the fact that Cole was Alison's husband when Noah first met and started having an affair with her. And then later he was Alison's ex-husband and then the brother of the guy who died in an accident that Helen caused (and I guess Alison if you want to be very technical). They are two people who based on circumstances, will always see and think the worse of each other, fair or not. 

More importantly, Alison did point out a reasonable fact that Cole has certainly known her longer than Noah has. Therefore, why would Cole's opinion of her, whatever that may be, be more inaccurate than how Noah sees her? Noah has only known Alison post Gabriel's death and this episode Alison more or less confirmed that a part of who she was died when Gabriel did.  Cole knew Alison before the tragedy of Gabriel and after. So frankly I would think he likely has a better sense of Alison than Noah. More importantly, Noah is the one, again per Alison last season and his POV throughout Season 1, seemed to see and remember a much different version of Alison than she saw and remembered of herself during that time. So how well does he really know her?

Edited December 20, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[MaggieG]

I'm not a Noah fan but that scene when he was talking about his mom got me right in the gut. I was crying right along with him. I thought the scene of them running naked away from the hot tub was funny.

I also think that Noah imagined the rear ending. Like many have said, the back of the car did not look damaged. Brendan Fraser sure is bringing the creep

[vixenbynight]

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That, plus I'm sure Cole would be a lot less amenable to working towards joint custody if Noah was back in Alison's life. 

Agreed. I understand that Allison is the biological mother of Joanie, but she was the one that realized that she needed to try and get herself back on track emotionally, mentally and physically for her daughter and any sort of future they could have together as mother and child. She has to keep that as her number one priority.

Allison knows, as the mandatory lawyer for Joanie continues to tell her, that if she is still seen as associating, having contacting or even being near her ex-con husband Noah, it gives Cole and Luisa more ammunition to use again her to keep Joanie from her.

I get that some viewers feel like Allison has some sort of "magical vagina" that has Noah and Cole under its thrall, but I want to know why Allison continues to get pulled into Noah's web. She knows that he's a manipulator. She knows that Cole cannot tolerate him. Why put her future and her chance to have ANY sort of bond with Joanie at risk over Noah?

The whole trip to Block Island made me worry that somehow they both would be caught by someone that knows them. When they missed the last ferry, I thought, "What's Allison going to do now?!"

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Noah And Alison Hop In A Hot Tub Time Machine On The Affair

Alison spends the day with Noah to finally put her foot down on the future of their relations. Nope, she's really going to do it. Watch her put her foot down. Any minute now. With special bonus hallucinogenic appearance by Brendan Fraser.

[Quiche]

3 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Considering Alison's complicity in assisting in the drug dealing, it probably wouldn't help her case to try to use that against Cole, unless she's looking to have Joanie taken from both them. Hell Noah, as she pointed out last season, painted her as a cold drug pusher in his book. 

Except Noah is hardly the best person to judge anything about Cole's feelings and what he may or may not think about Alison. The fact is Noah doesn't know Cole, despite the many ways their lives have intertwined and similarly Cole doesn't really know Noah. These two people have never ever sat and had a real conversation together, really ever gotten to know each other beyond the fact that Cole was Alison's husband when Noah first met and started having an affair with her. And then later he was Alison's ex-husband and then the brother of the guy who died in an accident that Helen caused (and I guess Alison if you want to be very technical). They are two people who based on circumstances, will always see and think the worse of each other, fair or not. 

More importantly, Alison did point out a reasonable fact that Cole has certainly known her longer than Noah has. Therefore, why would Cole's opinion of her, whatever that may be, be more inaccurate than how Noah sees her? Noah has only known Alison post Gabriel's death and this episode Alison more or less confirmed that a part of who she was died when Gabriel did.  Cole knew Alison before the tragedy of Gabriel and after. So frankly I would think he likely has a better sense of Alison than Noah. More importantly, Noah is the one, again per Alison last season and his POV throughout Season 1, seemed to see and remember a much different version of Alison than she saw and remembered of herself during that time. So how well does he really know her?

Have you noticed how Noah has emphasized, quite emphatically, that he loves Allison.  I never heard Cole say he loved her.  

So I say it is "love" that gives Noah more insights into Allison than Cole is capable of.  

[GeminiDancer]

Let's not forget that Noah is just as complicit as Alison in keeping Joanie from her father. In Cole's mind, if Noah comes back what's to stop Noah from trying to keep her away from Cole again?

Cole's not one for words, obviously, but that doesn't mean he didn't love her. I think his love came in taking care of her.

[MaryHedwig]

Quote

BTW...can anyone make sense of "Container", the Affair opening song lyrics?

I believe the message of that haunting song is that life/forces of nature overwhelm us and we cannot determine or control our fate, only passively let it carry us along to wherever it may take us.  By the way, I am in total disagreement, but I think that is the song's message. Alternatively, it also sounds like a beautiful nonsensical lullaby.

I was screaming into the canyon
At the moment of my death
The echo I created
Outlasted my last breath

My voice it made an avalanche
And buried a man I never knew
And when he died his widowed bride
Met your daddy and they made you

I have only one thing to do and that's
To be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean...

Fiona Apple: Container

 

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by MaryHedwig

[grommit2]

13 hours ago, scrb said:

I can buy that Alison would prioritize the child above anything else, since she lost her first one.

But how does divorcing Noah improve her chances to get custody?  Because he's an ex con? 

Or because she thinks it would please Cole?

It seems a contrivance to separate them even though they have this connection -- Alison denied they loved each other but her mind change by the end of their little adventure?

Noah asked her years ago when he was arrested if she would wait for him.  Seemed an odd question as they seemed to be happy newlyweds.  But there was the trial and then 3 years in prison so Noah was prescient to ask yet he couldn't anticipate she'd have another child with Cole.

I don't have a clear timeline any more.  And having the plot become this convoluted is not a good sign.

Alison reported that any contact with Noah would jeopardize her chances of getting joint custody. 

[vixenbynight]

2 hours ago, Quiche said:

Have you noticed how Noah has emphasized, quite emphatically, that he loves Allison.  I never heard Cole say he loved her.  

So I say it is "love" that gives Noah more insights into Allison than Cole is capable of.  

To quote Ms. Tina Turner: 'What does love got to do' with trying to figure out if Noah edges out Cole in having a better understanding of Allison?

IMO, Noah and Cole do not have a better understanding of Allison, anymore than she has clear concept and idea of who she is and what she wants, besides being a good and sane mom to daughter.

[Duke2801]

3 hours ago, Quiche said:

Have you noticed how Noah has emphasized, quite emphatically, that he loves Allison.  I never heard Cole say he loved her.  

So I say it is "love" that gives Noah more insights into Allison than Cole is capable of.  

Even without going back and watching every episode from season 1 episode 1, until now, I feel quite certain that Cole has said that he loves/loved her at least once.  Probably more than once.

That said: Noah's version of love? Ain't shit. So I dare say that gives him NO more insight into Alison than Cole, or anybody else for that matter.

[Former Nun]

5 hours ago, vixenbynight said:

Why put her future and her chance to have ANY sort of bond with Joanie at risk over Noah?

A "magical penis"?  I wanted to say "dick" but thought it too crass.

7 hours ago, jrlr said:

 The story has devolved into the kind of murky, soap operatic idiocy that the show so carefully avoided in season 1.

I've given this tripe chance after chance.  I don't like any characters but Cole AND I haven't liked the actor who plays Noah in ANYTHING I've seen.  He's a fine (enough) actor--just not for me.

[vixenbynight]

34 minutes ago, Duke2801 said:

Even without going back and watching every episode from season 1 episode 1, until now, I feel quite certain that Cole has said that he loves/loved her at least once.  Probably more than once.

That said: Noah's version of love? Ain't shit. So I dare say that gives him NO more insight into Alison than Cole, or anybody else for that matter.

Very true. Noah's manipulation of Allison into spending the day with him in Block Island, trespasing on private property, saying that she's never been "this dull", while knowing the reason of why she's asked him for the divorce and initially refused to go with him on that day trip in the first place: to gain back joint custody of her child with Cole, just gives more proof of how wrong they are for each other.

 

27 minutes ago, Former Nun said:

A "magical penis"? I wanted to say "dick" but thought it too crass.

I've given this tripe chance after chance.  I don't like any characters but Cole AND I haven't liked the actor who plays Noah in ANYTHING I've seen.  He's a fine (enough) actor--just not for me.

Hi....it's not to crass at all, but I'm wondering if Allison does have some sort of sex addiction/compulsion, because I'm not sure if she got any sort of comfort/release from having sex with either Cole or Noah.

Did she have sex with them, because 1)She needed some sort of comfort from Cole over the situation with Joanie, 2)She needed some sort of comfort from Noah over her need to divorce him due to the situation with Joanie or 3)She had sex with them both, because she thought that was what Noah and Cole needed from her?

The only time she seems at some sort of peace and happy, is when she's around Joanie and she's still nervous about her doing anything that other kids her age would do. I thought that she would have a panic attack over seeing Joanie climbing on the monkey bars, while she was wondering if either Cole or the social worker would notice how she was reacting.

I get her fears, but she's going to have to try and find some sort of way to handle it, because what Luisa said is correct: Joanie will pick up on her mother's fears and no child her age should have to try and find ways to keep their mom from having an emotional breakdown.

Edited December 20, 2016 by vixenbynight

[scrb]

If he had a magical penis, presumably Alison wouldn't have insisted he sign the divorce papers the next morning?

They've made Alison an inconsistent mess.  In season 1, she was over Cole, especially that tattoo she didn't like, sort of like the Sarah Jessica Parker character in Divorce being really put off by the mustache that the husband character grew.

They really didn't react well to the death of the son so they drifted apart.

Then after she marries Noah, she slips and has sex with Cole once and gets pregnant?  She cuckolded both guys?

And they still want her?

Maybe it's more magical vagina than magical penis.

[truthaboutluv]

6 hours ago, Quiche said:

Have you noticed how Noah has emphasized, quite emphatically, that he loves Allison.  I never heard Cole say he loved her.  

Have you noticed that Alison and Cole had been married for years before their child died and she ever met Noah and that even before they were married, they knew each other as kids and had been dating since they were teenagers? So are we to believe in all of these years Cole never told Alison he loved her? And because all we've seen is Noah saying it onscreen to her in a story that picks up at the start of their affair, then clearly it means he is the one who loves and truly knows her? Okay, whatever works I guess. 

Quote

Even without going back and watching every episode from season 1 episode 1, until now, I feel quite certain that Cole has said that he loves/loved her at least once.  Probably more than once.

As I noted above because clearly Cole and Alison managed to be together since they were teenagers, get married, have a child and at no point did he ever tell her he loved her. Yeah I'm sure he didn't love her when he was willing to take her back even after finding out about her and Noah and worse, finding out by Oscar throwing it in his face. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Mackey]

Noah was in prison for three years. Allison dropped Joanie off with Cole just over six months ago. Do we have any clues about the preceding 2 1/2 years before those six months? Where was Allison living? Was she working? Was she faithfully loving and visiting Noah in prison until she went to the mental health facility Or had they already become estranged? Didn't their conversation during this episode seem odd in what they didn't talk about? If they were a "couple" until she went mental, shouldn't Noah have been a lot more shocked about her disappearance? He seemed too casual. It felt like something was just missing from their conversation. In spite of his not wanting her to divorce him, it didn't feel real in terms of his distress. If it was just about Joanie, why wouldn't she have sought him out for a long heart to heart to explain? Also, why wouldn't she have told Noah what she was doing (having a breakdown) if she loved him? When did she decide that they did not have real love?  

Do you think we are going to find out more about what other people besides Noah and his no-fun guard were doing during the prison years? 

[MaryHedwig]

Quote

 

 

13 hours ago, Mackey said:

Noah was in prison for three years.   Do you think we are going to find out more about what other people besides Noah and his no-fun guarwere doing during the prison years? 

Do we know that Noah was in prison for three years?  I know he was sentenced for three years but did he get half time or credit for time served? Am I supposed to know this? I'm so confused.

Edited December 21, 2016 by MaryHedwig

[WaltersHair]

I just assumed it was a tsunami (giant wave) singing about itself. Truly.
 

Quote

 

BTW...can anyone make sense of "Container", the Affair opening song lyrics?

I believe the message of that haunting song is that life/forces of nature overwhelm us and we cannot determine or control our fate, only passively let it carry us along to wherever it may take us.  By the way, I am in total disagreement, but I think that is the song's message. Alternatively, it also sounds like a beautiful nonsensical lullaby.

I was screaming into the canyon
At the moment of my death
The echo I created
Outlasted my last breath

My voice it made an avalanche
And buried a man I never knew
And when he died his widowed bride
Met your daddy and they made you

I have only one thing to do and that's
To be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean...

Fiona Apple: Container

 

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

Do we know that Noah was in prison for three years?  I know he was sentenced for three years but did he get half time or credit for time served? So I know this? I am so confused.

I'm pretty sure he made a comment about spending three years in jail, in the season premiere.

[NutMeg]

I found it strange that Noah has no concerns/questions about Joanie. Yes, she's not his biological child, but for a while (two years??), she was his daughter and he was her father for all purposes, which should have left some kind of bond. But apparently, no, nothing.Weird that, especially contrasted with how (in Helen's point of view only, not Noah's) he was all worried about his kids and not seeing them. 

[Duke2801]

35 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I'm pretty sure he made a comment about spending three years in jail, in the season premiere.

Yes, you are correct.  He's also remarked that he is 50 years old now. 

I never bothered to think about what those song lyrics meant because from the moment I first heard the song, I cringed and FF-ed through it. There's something about it that I just loathe (and I liked Fiona's older stuff!) 

[truthaboutluv]

47 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

I found it strange that Noah has no concerns/questions about Joanie. Yes, she's not his biological child, but for a while (two years??), she was his daughter and he was her father for all purposes, which should have left some kind of bond. But apparently, no, nothing.Weird that, especially contrasted with how (in Helen's point of view only, not Noah's) he was all worried about his kids and not seeing them. 

He did ask about her while they were in Alison's apartment. He was looking at a picture of her on Alison's fridge. Admittedly it was very brief and I definitely see your point. Also, when he was telling Alison about thinking he could move to Montauk, when he said it was to be with her, he did mention also wanting to help raise a child that wasn't his. This of course made me laugh because I was thinking of Cole hearing about that plan and it was like, "good luck with that Noah".

Edited December 21, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[NutMeg]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

He did ask about her while they were in Alison's apartment. He was looking at a picture of her on Alison's fridge. Admittedly it was very brief and I definitely see your point. Also, when he was telling Alison about thinking he could move to Montauk, when he said it was to be with her, he did mention also wanting to help raise a child that wasn't his. This of course made me laugh because I was thinking of Cole hearing about that plan and it was like, "good luck with that Noah".

thank you - I was dead tired and jet lagged when I watched the episode, so I know my recollection was definitely hazy.

[MaryHedwig]

Quote

I just assumed it was a tsunami (giant wave) singing about itself. Truly.

Love this! Best explanation ever.

[Cyranetta]

I found the two viewpoints of this ep more markedly at odds in tone than usual. Alison's was her usual dismal self, but Noah's I found weirdly jocular until the accident. I think it was the "let's have fun in someone else's hot tub" scene that threw me off.

[chocolatine]

Just now, Cyranetta said:

I found the two viewpoints of this ep more markedly at odds in tone than usual. Alison's was her usual dismal self, but Noah's I found weirdly jocular until the accident. I think it was the "let's have fun in someone else's hot tub" scene that threw me off.

The hot tub scene was still during Alison's POV. Alison's POV went on until they went to bed at the inn wearing the sweats they bought at the gift shop. Noah's POV started after they fell asleep, with his prison nightmare/flashback. There was no jocularity in his POV at all, it was all in Alison's.

[Milburn Stone]

45 minutes ago, Cyranetta said:

I found the two viewpoints of this ep more markedly at odds in tone than usual. Alison's was her usual dismal self, but Noah's I found weirdly jocular until the accident. I think it was the "let's have fun in someone else's hot tub" scene that threw me off.

With @chocolatine's correction noted, I share your perception that the Noah we saw through Alison's eyes this time was unlike any Noah we've ever seen, including through Alison's eyes. He's never appeared so manic before. The fact that Alison sees this now, when we never have, I take to be more indicative of a distortion in her current mental state than in his.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[chocolatine]

50 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

With @chocolatine's correction noted, I share your perception that the Noah we saw through Alison's eyes this time was unlike any Noah we've ever seen, including through Alison's eyes. He's never appeared so manic before. The fact that Alison sees this now, when we never have, I take to be more indicative of a distortion in her current mental state than in his.

I'm not sure I agree with this. We've seen that Noah's mental state is so distorted that he hallucinated himself into a car wreck, and it's also possible that he stabbed himself in the neck during one of his hallucinations. He's almost certainly dealing with severe PTSD and an addiction to prescription pain killers, and possibly other afflictions that we haven't been shown yet. I'm not saying Alison's POV is 100% reliable, but she's still acting more or less in character as the perpetual victim with no sexual boundaries, whereas most of Noah's behavior this season is completely new for him.

It's completely possible that he was manic during the day, but then became depressed at night after having the prison nightmare, and that he's not aware of his own mania/mood swings.

Edited December 21, 2016 by chocolatine

[grommit2]

On 12/20/2016 at 1:52 PM, MaryHedwig said:

I believe the message of that haunting song is that life/forces of nature overwhelm us and we cannot determine or control our fate, only passively let it carry us along to wherever it may take us.  By the way, I am in total disagreement, but I think that is the song's message. Alternatively, it also sounds like a beautiful nonsensical lullaby.

I was screaming into the canyon
At the moment of my death
The echo I created
Outlasted my last breath

My voice it made an avalanche
And buried a man I never knew
And when he died his widowed bride
Met your daddy and they made you

I have only one thing to do and that's
To be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean...

Fiona Apple: Container

 

 

So, her death-voice generated an avalanche that buried a married man she never knew.  When this man died, his widowed bride met your daddy and they made you.  Huh? And this is sung while all the Affair characters are shown sinking in the ocean. Ah...I see...this is a metaphor for, umm, uhh...aw gee, my dog ate my homework.  

[Cranky One]

On 12/19/2016 at 4:32 AM, gingerella said:

I just can't with this show anymore. It has fucked itself up its own show ass. It was so damn good s1 and now it's like some bad parody of a horror show written by a 7th grader. Just, no. 

I was bored with Alison's POV and was really bored with Noah's that I stopped watching 5 minutes into it. The show seems to be dragging to me. I think I may just read the forums just to see how it ends from now on.

[jrlr]

8 minutes ago, Cranky One said:

I was bored with Alison's POV and was really bored with Noah's that I stopped watching 5 minutes into it. The show seems to be dragging to me. I think I may just read the forums just to see how it ends from now on.

That's what I've been doing.  I'm still kind of curious about where this hot mess is going, but it's just too irritating to watch anymore.

[taragel]

2 hours ago, Cyranetta said:

I found the two viewpoints of this ep more markedly at odds in tone than usual. Alison's was her usual dismal self, but Noah's I found weirdly jocular until the accident. I think it was the "let's have fun in someone else's hot tub" scene that threw me off.

Me too. It felt very odd to me. All the singing from Noah? I guess he was supposed to be happy to reunite with his true love, Allison, but it just felt unlike any interactions they've had before.

[chick binewski]

On 12/19/2016 at 6:51 PM, izabella said:

I keep thinking that the guard is not actually real, or if he's real, he's not actually as menacing and violent as Noah's POV shows him to be.  The only reason I think he's real is that Helen said something about the guard during one of her visits, but I can't remember if that was in her POV or Noah's.  If it was just Noah's, then I'm almost convinced John Gunther doesn't exist in the way Noah's POV depicts him.  

Since the guard s/l is bugging me so much I watched part of episode 2 again; Fraser is clearly shown and Noah handing back Helen the picture Stacey drew makes a lot of sense now. But I'm with everyone who has doubts about the guard story. Partially due to the writing this season, but also going back to Noah's memories. Noah running towards a lake while his father (I think) was yelling after him? The guard being a fellow HS swimmer? Noah disclosing he helped his mother die? I'm waiting for it all to tie in to Noah being a supremely fucked up teenager but I'm running out of patience. 

On 12/20/2016 at 1:39 AM, CarolMK said:

I read something in an interview with Sarah Treem and she said originally she felt that the Affair would have 3 seasons. She also said something to the effect that in some storylines, they'd painted themselves into a corner. So I'm wondering if this is really going to be the last season. The entire story seems all over the place, especially with introducing the French professor this year. 

It has a very Cousin Oliver/Baby Mabel/jump the shark kind of feel. Like when you watch old episodes of a long-running series' final seasons and none of the characters are the same. 

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

With @chocolatine's correction noted, I share your perception that the Noah we saw through Alison's eyes this time was unlike any Noah we've ever seen, including through Alison's eyes. He's never appeared so manic before. The fact that Alison sees this now, when we never have, I take to be more indicative of a distortion in her current mental state than in his.

 

34 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I'm not sure I agree with this. We've seen that Noah's mental state is so distorted that he hallucinated himself into a car wreck, and it's also possible that he stabbed himself in the neck during one of his hallucinations. He's almost certainly dealing with severe PTSD and an addiction to prescription pain killers, and possibly other afflictions that we haven't been shown yet. I'm not saying Alison's POV is 100% reliable, but she's still acting more or less in character as the perpetual victim with no sexual boundaries, whereas most of Noah's behavior this season is completely new for him.

It's completely possible that he was manic during the day, but then became depressed at night after having the prison nightmare, and that he's not aware of his own mania/mood swings.

I think both of you make interesting points here. 

[izabella]

3 hours ago, chick binewski said:

Since the guard s/l is bugging me so much I watched part of episode 2 again; Fraser is clearly shown and Noah handing back Helen the picture Stacey drew makes a lot of sense now. But I'm with everyone who has doubts about the guard story. Partially due to the writing this season, but also going back to Noah's memories. Noah running towards a lake while his father (I think) was yelling after him? The guard being a fellow HS swimmer? Noah disclosing he helped his mother die? I'm waiting for it all to tie in to Noah being a supremely fucked up teenager but I'm running out of patience. 

I think it's all tied to the book that Noah's writing.  I think he's writing a semi-autobiographical novel about a guy who ends up in prison, and the prison guard is part of his adventures, as are his memories he's including as part of the background story of the character.

ETA:  Maybe with the drugs he's taking, it's all getting jumbled in his head.  Is he still writing his book, or is he done with it?  Did the guard actually take it, so he has to re-write it now?

Edited December 22, 2016 by izabella

[Muffyn]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 3:35 PM, chocolatine said:

He even named the character Jack Hunter - as thinly veiled a reference to John Gunther as there could possibly be.

That's the zero imagination hack writer we all know as Noah Solloway in action!

[Milburn Stone]

13 hours ago, chick binewski said:

Noah running towards a lake while his father (I think) was yelling after him? The guard being a fellow HS swimmer? Noah disclosing he helped his mother die? I'm waiting for it all to tie in to Noah being a supremely fucked up teenager...

Hmm. Interesting. I'm wondering if it will turn out that the guard's sadistic abuse is Noah's fantasy that he has created for the purpose of punishing himself for the guilt he carries around concerning his mother. (We know he was a good son; his mother told him he was a good son; going to Williams was the right choice; nevertheless, he clearly torments himself that he went to Williams, and enjoyed the privileges that accrued from that in all his life following, at the expense of abandoning her. In his mind, he needs to be punished severely, and no one came along to do that until he "seized the opportunity" to make a human sacrifice of himself by going to jail unjustly and being tortured by a guard.)

[NutMeg]

On 12/21/2016 at 11:33 PM, truthaboutluv said:

He did ask about her while they were in Alison's apartment. He was looking at a picture of her on Alison's fridge. Admittedly it was very brief and I definitely see your point. Also, when he was telling Alison about thinking he could move to Montauk, when he said it was to be with her, he did mention also wanting to help raise a child that wasn't his. This of course made me laugh because I was thinking of Cole hearing about that plan and it was like, "good luck with that Noah".

Oh, and one other thing: when Noah called and got Alison's voicemail, it said (at least in his recollection) "You've reached Alison and Joanie..." Which IS weird too, unless Alison hadn't changed it in a loooong time

[grommit2]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Hmm. Interesting. I'm wondering if it will turn out that the guard's sadistic abuse is Noah's fantasy that he has created for the purpose of punishing himself for the guilt he carries around concerning his mother. (We know he was a good son; his mother told him he was a good son; going to Williams was the right choice; nevertheless, he clearly torments himself that he went to Williams, and enjoyed the privileges that accrued from that in all his life following, at the expense of abandoning her. In his mind, he needs to be punished severely, and no one came along to do that until he "seized the opportunity" to make a human sacrifice of himself by going to jail unjustly and being tortured by a guard.)

Whoa...now that is really interesting.  Didn't Noah assist in her suicide?  If yes, his self-loathing would be the least of his psychological burden.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, grommit2 said:

Whoa...now that is really interesting.  Didn't Noah assist in her suicide?  If yes, his self-loathing would be the least of his psychological burden.

Yes, should have included that...it obviously supports my thesis...

[Janc]

19 hours ago, chick binewski said:

Since the guard s/l is bugging me so much I watched part of episode 2 again; Fraser is clearly shown and Noah handing back Helen the picture Stacey drew makes a lot of sense now.

So I wonder if the writers were planning this guard storyline back then by casting Fraser?  Do you recall whose perspective that scene was in, was it Noah's or Helen's?

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Janc said:

So I wonder if the writers were planning this guard storyline back then by casting Fraser?  Do you recall whose perspective that scene was in, was it Noah's or Helen's?

It was Helen's. The second episode didn't have a Noah POV, just Helen and Alison.

[ruby24]

When did Alison and Noah actually get married? We never even saw that, did we? They were still engaged at the time of the car accident.

Is that really it for them? I mean, if it is, I don't know where else the show goes from there, considering it's supposed to be about their relationship, right?

[Miss Patterson]

I'm hating on too much this season. I hate the French professor, I hate Noah, I hate Alison, and I more than hate the theme song, which I fast forward every episode because that voice makes my ears bleed. 

Oh, I hate the kids, I hate Helen's mother, and I hate the pompous artist that Whitney is "staying with."

Anyone else think of any other hates? 

[grommit2]

On 12/24/2016 at 9:36 PM, ruby24 said:

When did Alison and Noah actually get married? We never even saw that, did we? They were still engaged at the time of the car accident.

Is that really it for them? I mean, if it is, I don't know where else the show goes from there, considering it's supposed to be about their relationship, right?

Hmmm...a plot twist:  Noah will need a ride back to Jersey.  Ta Da...here comes Alison. The story continues!  

And then Whitney shows up, and all is well with the whiny crowd.  

[Bcharmer]

15 hours ago, Miss Patterson said:

I'm hating on too much this season. I hate the French professor, I hate Noah, I hate Alison, and I more than hate the theme song, which I fast forward every episode because that voice makes my ears bleed. 

Oh, I hate the kids, I hate Helen's mother, and I hate the pompous artist that Whitney is "staying with."

Anyone else think of any other hates? 

Yes, I also now hate the pointless POVs. That novelty has worn off, for me. If nothing we see is the absolute truth, then the differing POVs are worthless, unless playing "spot the differences" is your idea of a good time. The writers can be sloppy about any detail, and justify it by saying, "Well, that was just so-and-so's point of view, and memories are flawed."  Ugh.  Sorry, but I need SOME truth. At this point, I struggle to find anyone or anything to like. 

[Splash]

I managed to get 16 minutes in and I'm out for the season.  I can't quite decide if I hate Alison or Noah more, but having to suffer through them together is too much.  I had recorded Girl, Interrupted earlier in the week and it's a such a more enjoyable use of my tv watching time, than watching two reprehensible people dance around their lust.  Within the context of the show, they are not only terrible people, but they are such boring people that I can't bother to care.  It's a shame, because I really liked this show.

[Milburn Stone]

16 hours ago, Bcharmer said:

Yes, I also now hate the pointless POVs. That novelty has worn off, for me. If nothing we see is the absolute truth, then the differing POVs are worthless, unless playing "spot the differences" is your idea of a good time. The writers can be sloppy about any detail, and justify it by saying, "Well, that was just so-and-so's point of view, and memories are flawed."  Ugh.  Sorry, but I need SOME truth. At this point, I struggle to find anyone or anything to like. 

Very similar problem to that of Westworld. When nothing can be taken as real--when everything can be taken as a person's faulty memory (or a robot's false memory)--there's no there there.

Even moments that appear to have corroboration between two different characters' POVs--for instance, that Helen saw Brendan Fraser--aren't necessarily real. Hey, maybe in an amazing coincidence, Helen and Noah both cast the same guy in their delusions! OK, I admit that's a stretch. But the show seems closer to that territory than it once did.

[Snewtsie]

On 12/24/2016 at 6:36 PM, ruby24 said:

When did Alison and Noah actually get married? We never even saw that, did we? They were still engaged at the time of the car accident.

Thank you- this was really bothering me, too.  Like you point out, they were engaged the night Scotty died and she told him Joanie was not his child.  It's unclear if they were married sometime between that night and the trial ...or between his courtroom 'outburst' confession and being sent to prison.  Unlikely she would have married him after his confession, since she would feel he did that more to protect Helen than her ...so I am guessing they were married sometime after Scotty's death and before his trial began.  But the lack of mention of their wedding details has really bugged me.  Since he already knew Joannie was not his child, it seems weird to me they would have gotten married at all.  He had been conflicted about the way he felt about her (hesitating to tell her his divorce was final, for example, and wishing to go to France for 2 years so he could focus on writing his big book about 'great men'), and we know he wasn't happy to learn Joannie was Cole's kid... so it seems like a unlikely twist he would decided they should get married.

[truthaboutluv]

49 minutes ago, Snewtsie said:

Thank you- this was really bothering me, too.  Like you point out, they were engaged the night Scotty died and she told him Joanie was not his child.  It's unclear if they were married sometime between that night and the trial ...or between his courtroom 'outburst' confession and being sent to prison.  Unlikely she would have married him after his confession, since she would feel he did that more to protect Helen than her ...so I am guessing they were married sometime after Scotty's death and before his trial began.  But the lack of mention of their wedding details has really bugged me.  Since he already knew Joannie was not his child, it seems weird to me they would have gotten married at all.  He had been conflicted about the way he felt about her (hesitating to tell her his divorce was final, for example, and wishing to go to France for 2 years so he could focus on writing his big book about 'great men'), and we know he wasn't happy to learn Joannie was Cole's kid... so it seems like a unlikely twist he would decided they should get married.

All of this. That's why I actually think it would have been better if the writers had gone back in time this season, after the reveal of what happened that night. They could have had present day scenes of Noah still in prison, Alison struggling, Cole finding out the truth about Joanie, etc. but that would be interspersed with what happened in the aftermath of Scotty's death.

How and hell why Alison and Noah got married, Noah and Helen's interactions since she's the one who really hit Scotty, etc. It would give greater context to how all the characters ended up where they did at the point of Noah being arrested for Scotty's murder and their current state by the end of the season.

They could have even ended the season with Noah's getting out of jail, Alison having her breakdown, etc. I don't know if it's a fact that this is the last season but if it isn't, a season like the one I described would have been a good way to go into Season 4, which would pick up where this season has rather than this season, which feels like so much was just jumped over and brushed past. And that, among many other things, is what has made the season so uneven.

Edited December 27, 2016 by truthaboutluv