Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[Tikichick]

7 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Jill's husband did that stupid ignorant Twitter flameout over Jazz which put him squarely into the outs with TLC. Ironically, the opinions he expressed in those awful tweets are probably shared by JB, so any heartburn they gave JB was about endangering the Duggars' relationship with TLC. I don't know how that stupid losing tweet-war aligned, timewise, with Derick's insisting that JB account for Jill's earnings from the show. We do know that at the end, the Dillards were off the show, they hired a lawyer, Jill got some money (and if it let them buy a new house, even a starter home, free and clear, that's some cash), Jill [and I'm sure Derick] were banned from the TTH unless with JB's express consent, and Derick had surfaced from his deep dive into the fundamental evangelical world. 

 

This shines a spotlight on another aspect of the hypocrisy of JB.    Don't work for other people because they may be evil and ungodly, only work for yourself or family.    Yet he pimped out himself and all 19 of those kids he was always so proudly counting to an evil network employer.

I guess there are different considerations when it involves an income stream flowing directly to JB's control that is generated essentially on the backs of most everyone but JB.   Then the standards of who it's okay to accept a paycheck from magically shift.

[floridamom]

Derick and Jill should never have had to sue Jim Bob for Jill's fair share of her TV money in the first place. Her father should have been financially honest in sharing the income with his adult children AND should have and should be putting funds in the minor childrens' bank accounts for THEIR future. Jim Bob doesn't want to divide up the income...he would not net himself and Michelle enough money to continue the show. I think that's why he 'gives the adult kids gifts' for their compensation....Much cheaper than actually paying them their fair share episode per episode. Whatever Jim Bob and Michelle do, they always want to come out on the top. Selfish parents who are robbing their children...all of them IMO.

[GeeGolly]

5 hours ago, floridamom said:

Derick and Jill should never have had to sue Jim Bob for Jill's fair share of her TV money in the first place. Her father should have been financially honest in sharing the income with his adult children AND should have and should be putting funds in the minor childrens' bank accounts for THEIR future. Jim Bob doesn't want to divide up the income...he would not net himself and Michelle enough money to continue the show. I think that's why he 'gives the adult kids gifts' for their compensation....Much cheaper than actually paying them their fair share episode per episode. Whatever Jim Bob and Michelle do, they always want to come out on the top. Selfish parents who are robbing their children...all of them IMO.

I agree, to a point. I think JB & M are robbing their children of learning how to be independent self-sustaining adults. But I think the kids are getting their fair share of TLC money and probably more. JB has grown whatever money they've made from the show and none of the kids, adult and minors, seem to lack for anything. I don't know exactly what went down with Derick, but Joy, Jinger, Lauren, Abbie and Kendra all had hospital births and Jessa was transported to the hospital twice. None of them seem to be hurting for money.

I really think Derick got too big for his britches and got into a pissing contest, first with TLC and then JB. He may think he won, but I think Jill is still struggling with how everything went down.

To bring this back to Joy and Austin - they had three hospital births. Somehow those bills have been paid.

Edited December 19, 2020 by GeeGolly

[Churchhoney]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree, to a point. I think JB & M are robbing their children of learning how to be independent self-sustaining adults. But I think the kids are getting their fair share of TLC money

He pays them off to remain infantilized and in his image. 

 

[Kellyee]

Quote

He pays them off to remain infantilized and in his image. 

Jim Bob pays them, so he maintains control over them. I really think with Jim Bob it's all about control. They can't go to school, and they end up working for Jim Bob or one of his friends. I think part of why Jill is on the outs is that they really walked away from letting Jim Bob control what they were doing. Austin seems to want to be independent, as does Jeremy. I can't figure out what the hell Ben does, and all the Duggar brothers work for Jim Bob. I think Joy, Jill, and Jinger all mostly follow their husbands lead, while Jessa seems to be the more assertive person in her marriage.

 

 

 

 

[BigBingerBro]

36 minutes ago, Kellyee said:

I can't figure out what the hell Ben does

When Jordan was visiting the Breakout Stars in LA, Jermy interviewed her for his podcast and she pretty much confirmed that Ben is the head "teacher" at the TTH SOTDRT.  One can assume that he most likely brings his own kids and also teaches the M kids living in the warehouse annex.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Kellyee said:

Jim Bob pays them, so he maintains control over them. I really think with Jim Bob it's all about control. They can't go to school, and they end up working for Jim Bob or one of his friends. I think part of why Jill is on the outs is that they really walked away from letting Jim Bob control what they were doing. Austin seems to want to be independent, as does Jeremy. I can't figure out what the hell Ben does, and all the Duggar brothers work for Jim Bob. I think Joy, Jill, and Jinger all mostly follow their husbands lead, while Jessa seems to be the more assertive person in her marriage.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I agree. 

That's why I call them infantilized. They're controlled by somebody else forever (and therefore living their lives like he does, because their controller is a fearful guy who's scared shitless of the world outside his own head and of all the different-from-him-even-by-a-little-bit people who live there, so anybody he controls will therefore be just like him.)  -- And that pretty much prevents you from becoming an adult.....or even a teenager, to some extent. 😁

You get zero practice in behaving like an actual adult if you're somebody else's little robot (even if being a robot is basically your job because you're getting paid to behave that way). 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[madpsych78]

Here's the thing I keep going back to:

After 19 Kids, the show was initially called Jill and Jessa: Counting On. JB and Michelle were hardly on the show in those days. You would think that the ones primarily negotiating the contracts would be the Dillards and the Seewalds, when the show was in that incarnation. So if JB was still the one negotiating the contracts and taking the pay, then I could understand Derick being royally pissed, and IMHO Ben and Jessa should have been royally pissed as well but they were too oblivious.  

Now - with that said - I don't know exactly how the contract plays out, but I think it is fair to say that not all adult kids get the same amount of screen time, and I could imagine the contract becoming really complicated if compensation was based on screen time. So I could see how JB, with the agreement of (most) adult kids, thought it would be easiest for the compensation to go to one spot and then to funnel it out. I also don't know if separate contracts would simplify things, especially with so many adult sub-families being featured. With Justin/Claire that is soon to be 9 families if you count Anna and her kids as well as JB and Michelle.

[Zella]

If I were TLC, I wouldn't want to deal with a contract for every couple. 

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Here's the thing I keep going back to:

After 19 Kids, the show was initially called Jill and Jessa: Counting On. JB and Michelle were hardly on the show in those days. You would think that the ones primarily negotiating the contracts would be the Dillards and the Seewalds, when the show was in that incarnation. So if JB was still the one negotiating the contracts and taking the pay, then I could understand Derick being royally pissed, and IMHO Ben and Jessa should have been royally pissed as well but they were too oblivious.  

Now - with that said - I don't know exactly how the contract plays out, but I think it is fair to say that not all adult kids get the same amount of screen time, and I could imagine the contract becoming really complicated if compensation was based on screen time. So I could see how JB, with the agreement of (most) adult kids, thought it would be easiest for the compensation to go to one spot and then to funnel it out. I also don't know if separate contracts would simplify things, especially with so many adult sub-families being featured. With Justin/Claire that is soon to be 9 families if you count Anna and her kids as well as JB and Michelle.

But Derick didn't become royally pissed until 2+ years later. So whatever the deal was, he was fine with it initially. 

[emmawoodhouse]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

But Derick didn't become royally pissed until 2+ years later. So whatever the deal was, he was fine with it initially. 

Derelict was also guzzling the kool aid back then. He looked at Boob as a mentor. Of course, that relationship totally hit the skids about the time Derelict started law school. I think his first course in Contracts taught him a thing or two and BOOM! went the dynamite. 

[MargeGunderson]

7 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

But Derick didn't become royally pissed until 2+ years later. So whatever the deal was, he was fine with it initially. 

Yep, he was. But then there were medical bills from one of the kid’s birth, he and Jill flamed out from being missionaries, he spent a year getting some sort of Bible certificate (and not working, as I recall), and then decided to go to law school. They needed money, so they went after what Derick thought should have been Jill’s/theirs all along. While I do appreciate anyone going after JB, it does seem to me like Derick was fine with everything until the money wasn’t enough to pay all of their bills, and then called foul. I wonder what would happen if I went to my job and said they should have been paying me more the last 5 years, even though I agreed to my terms of employment? 

 

[satrunrose]

I think the question for me is how is money distributed in the Duggar family? If they're splitting up the pot fairly equally (like a salary) and Jill and Derrick couldn't pay the bills, especially with D's penchant for pricy schooling, then yeah, that's likely on the Dillards. But if JB controls it all and doles it out like an allowance, then I would say that it's more like agreeing to terms and then finding out that those terms broke every labour law in the book. Jill wouldn't have the experience to know whether she was being exploited and Derrick's jobs before Jill (Pistol Pete and undercover missionary) may or may not have set him up to know what was or wasn't okay (despite his accountant training). 

[awaken]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:57 PM, awaken said:

I will!

Well, she gave me an eyeroll when I asked, so make what you will of that. 

Wow. Quoting myself here. She unfollowed me after that!  I just asked if they support the Pearls’ methods. I wouldn’t think that was controversial in fundie-land!

[awaken]

12 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

When Jordan was visiting the Breakout Stars in LA, Jermy interviewed her for his podcast and she pretty much confirmed that Ben is the head "teacher" at the TTH SOTDRT.  One can assume that he most likely brings his own kids and also teaches the M kids living in the warehouse annex.

What exactly did jordyn say about Ben being their teacher?  I won’t add to their numbers by listening. Plus I’d be so nauseous listening to his smug voice I couldn’t get through it. 

[emmawoodhouse]

10 minutes ago, awaken said:

Wow. Quoting myself here. She unfollowed me after that!  I just asked if they support the Pearls’ methods. I wouldn’t think that was controversial in fundie-land!

You mean she blocked you? At any rate, I learned early on not to engage these idiots. Jessa blocked me for an innocuous comment that she apparently found offensive. This happened on the post she made kissing Ben on their honeymoon to promote straight marriage.

[awaken]

Oh yeah duh. She blocked me 🙂 I didn’t say anything inflammatory. 

[lascuba]

On 12/18/2020 at 1:39 PM, Future Cat Lady said:

You know what? I can't blame JB for not wanting Derrick around. Anyone in that position would do the same. If you spill family secrets and bad mouth the family, don't expect to be invited to dinner!

Jeremy and Jinger's situation is completely different. I'm pretty certain that Jeremy sees JB as beneath him, but he wants to be on TV so he's going to play nice. 

Again, I don't think that the rift is because they're not quiverfull or Gothard followers. Derrick and Jeremy never were and they still married the Duggar girls.

 

As a bystander, I'm a big fan of dirty-laundry sharing. But you're absolutely right...if you talk shit, it's perfectly reasonable for the subject of your shit-talking to not want you around. It's like back when Amy was making the tabloid rounds going on and on about the family. At one point, Jessa had randomly reposted pictures of her wedding right when Amy had first posted her wedding pictures, and of course the Duggar-sphere all assumed it was deliberate and complained that it was a horrible thing to steal Amy's thunder. But I just couldn't understand the outrage. I 100% agreed with everything Amy was saying about her uncle and cousins. And I think it was a shitty thing for to say all that publicly while still trying ride their coattails to fame.

And while Derick might not be welcome, Jill has appeared on the show multiple times (for a few of the birth specials, iirc) since Derick rage-quit. She's hasn't been ostracized for all the superficial changes she's made--most of the public fundies have been moving to pants-wearing, etc. for years now. It's about the money and public call outs...mostly the public call outs, I'll bet, and it's not unreasonable for several family members to be upset about that.

11 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Here's the thing I keep going back to:

After 19 Kids, the show was initially called Jill and Jessa: Counting On. JB and Michelle were hardly on the show in those days. You would think that the ones primarily negotiating the contracts would be the Dillards and the Seewalds, when the show was in that incarnation. So if JB was still the one negotiating the contracts and taking the pay, then I could understand Derick being royally pissed, and IMHO Ben and Jessa should have been royally pissed as well but they were too oblivious.  

Now - with that said - I don't know exactly how the contract plays out, but I think it is fair to say that not all adult kids get the same amount of screen time, and I could imagine the contract becoming really complicated if compensation was based on screen time. So I could see how JB, with the agreement of (most) adult kids, thought it would be easiest for the compensation to go to one spot and then to funnel it out. I also don't know if separate contracts would simplify things, especially with so many adult sub-families being featured. With Justin/Claire that is soon to be 9 families if you count Anna and her kids as well as JB and Michelle.

That was always just a cover because TLC had to pretend that they actually cancelled the show. There's not a doubt in my mid that TLC called JB to tell him that they were going to announce cancellation, but don't worry, thy were working on a new name, and while he and Michelle would have to lay low for a while, they'll gradually work them back in.

On 12/17/2020 at 6:28 PM, madpsych78 said:

I don't know, my money is on Jana being the most judgmental about Jill's changes. She's firmly entrenched in JB and Michelle's world. 

But I totally agree that Jessa is probably one of the siblings who is supportive of Jill.

I think the big wildcard is Jinger. There are some things about her that are mainstream and similar to Jill, yet other things that are very, very different.

I agree that Jana would be the most judgmental. Joy as well, though not necessarily about the specifics like pants and nose-rings, but the lack of loyalty to JB and family industry/"ministry."

I think Jessa doesn't care enough about what other people do to be judgmental.

Jinger woul be fine with it all,  but I always got the sense that she disliked Jill even more than the other oldest siblings do/did, (with good reason, because Jill was an overbearing asshole when she lived at the TTH). And now with Jeremy's whole aesthetic, the distance between her and Jill has grown even more. It's not worth it to be supportive.

[GeeGolly]

I think TLC was between a rock and a hard place after scandal #1 hit. If they cancelled the show they were punishing 4 survivors, yet they couldn't keep Josh on the air and they were hearing the hate and blame toward JB & M. Plus this show made TLC money. I think TLC cares much more about their own reputation and money than they do about the families they film. Creating Jill and Jessa Counting On, checked TLC's boxes by keeping the money coming in and not punishing victims of sexual assault. I'm guessing once TLC realized how boring they were even, with Jinger's courtship in the works, they tested the waters by featuring more siblings and letting JB & M appear here and there. 

Then there was Derick. I'm not sure when they dropped Jill and Jessa from the name, but the rumblings of Derick may have had something to do with it.

JB may have power over his adult children through finances and some unearned respect, but I don't think he holds any power with TLC or is highly respected by them.

Personally I think TLC made the right decision. The girls did nothing wrong and cancelling the show would have punished them for something their brother did and for what many believe their parents didn't do.

[Chicklet]

I don't think it's fair to judge Jill for being the tattletale of the family, her parents created that role and supported it for her. Should she still be doing it now would be another story.

I like Jill, well I don't fangirl all over her but she's not the most odious person I know of. What kids do as kids and what adults do as adults is what matters.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Chicklet

[Minivanessa]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think TLC cares much more about their own reputation and money than they do about the families they film. . . .

JB may have power over his adult children through finances and some unearned respect, but I don't think he holds any power with TLC or is highly respected by them.

I agree - TLC is all about the ratings and the PR and the money. TLC is a corporation and the bottom line is everything. Reputation and ratings drive the bottom line. The people who work at TLC may love or hate the on-air talent, but their decisions about programming are revenue-driven. I think they did tread carefully after Joshgate; I don't know if just cancelling the show would have been a PR disaster for TLC but they pulled off a slick little balancing act with the nominal re-branding. 

I also agree that JB has little clout with TLC. The folks at TLC probably think he's damned lucky that his family show is still on their schedule after his handling of the molestations was revealed and the show became radioactive for advertisers at least for awhile. TLC was left holding a vault full of old 19K&C etc. episodes that they can't air as lucrative income-generating repeats, because - Josh. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Jeeves

[Absolom]

9 hours ago, lascuba said:

That was always just a cover because TLC had to pretend that they actually cancelled the show. There's not a doubt in my mid that TLC called JB to tell him that they were going to announce cancellation, but don't worry, thy were working on a new name, and while he and Michelle would have to lay low for a while, they'll gradually work them back in.

They changed the name of the show, but not the underlying contracts.

[lascuba]

I don't buy for a second that TLC cared at all about "punishing survivors."  19K was their cash cow and they weren't going to lose it.

3 hours ago, Chicklet said:

I don't think it's fair to judge Jill for being the tattletale of the family, her parents created that role and supported it for her. Should she still be doing it now would be another story.

I like Jill, well I don't fangirl all over her but she's not the most odious person I know of. What kids do as kids and what adults do as adults is what matters.

That really doesn't matter for those who grew up with her, though. Whatever the reasons for the sibling dynamics, the effects are what they are and you can't just change your feeling about your siblings when those feelings had 2+ decades to settle in. They all have the same parents. They grew up with the same fucked up rules. Jill's inherent personality was particularly well suited for those rules and it made her a pain in the ass to live with. Jill ON CAMERA would call out her siblings for saying things that weren't "godly" enough...imagine what she was like behind closed doors. Her siblings wouldn't be wrong to not feel close to her now because of that.

[DangerousMinds]

9 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think TLC was between a rock and a hard place after scandal #1 hit. If they cancelled the show they were punishing 4 survivors, yet they couldn't keep Josh on the air and they were hearing the hate and blame toward JB & M. Plus this show made TLC money. I think TLC cares much more about their own reputation and money than they do about the families they film. Creating Jill and Jessa Counting On, checked TLC's boxes by keeping the money coming in and not punishing victims of sexual assault. I'm guessing once TLC realized how boring they were even, with Jinger's courtship in the works, they tested the waters by featuring more siblings and letting JB & M appear here and there. 

Then there was Derick. I'm not sure when they dropped Jill and Jessa from the name, but the rumblings of Derick may have had something to do with it.

JB may have power over his adult children through finances and some unearned respect, but I don't think he holds any power with TLC or is highly respected by them.

Personally I think TLC made the right decision. The girls did nothing wrong and cancelling the show would have punished them for something their brother did and for what many believe their parents didn't do.

I don’t see TLC canceling the show as “punishing” the girls. 2 had husbands by then who were supposed to be “providing” for them, with the other 2 soon to follow.

[lascuba]

9 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don’t see TLC canceling the show as “punishing” the girls. 2 had husbands by then who were supposed to be “providing” for them, with the other 2 soon to follow.

And those same 2 took part in a disastrous interview where they completed dismissed sexual abuse among siblings as so common place that it wasn't a big deal. 

[Zella]

Just now, lascuba said:

And those same 2 took part in a disastrous interview where they completed dismissed sexual abuse among siblings as so common place that it wasn't a big deal. 

That whole interview was so disturbing on many levels, but when they started asserting how common this was, I got deeply creeped out. I don't know if that is something they were told from the beginning or if it was the strategy they settled on to counter the scandal breaking, but the fact they both seemed to repeat that as if it was a perfectly normal and valid defense tells me a lot (and none of it good) about Gothard families. 

[Tikichick]

11 minutes ago, lascuba said:

And those same 2 took part in a disastrous interview where they completed dismissed sexual abuse among siblings as so common place that it wasn't a big deal. 

 

8 minutes ago, Zella said:

That whole interview was so disturbing on many levels, but when they started asserting how common this was, I got deeply creeped out. I don't know if that is something they were told from the beginning or if it was the strategy they settled on to counter the scandal breaking, but the fact they both seemed to repeat that as if it was a perfectly normal and valid defense tells me a lot (and none of it good) about Gothard families. 

I give sexual assault victims a lot of grace as far as their reactions and statements about what they've been through.   I give particular grace to child victims and those who are used to a dynamic where they have little to no agency or control over their lives, have no independent means of support, nor any skills or education to draw upon for striking out on their own and building a career and supporting themselves.  

Sexual abuse and assault alone are big enough burdens for many to overcome.   It's no wonder those laden with other burdens struggle or cannot see another way out. 

[Zella]

14 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 

I give sexual assault victims a lot of grace as far as their reactions and statements about what they've been through.   I give particular grace to child victims and those who are used to a dynamic where they have little to no agency or control over their lives, have no independent means of support, nor any skills or education to draw upon for striking out on their own and building a career and supporting themselves.  

Sexual abuse and assault alone are big enough burdens for many to overcome.   It's no wonder those laden with other burdens struggle or cannot see another way out. 

I was also the victim of childhood sexual assault, so I'm not unsympathetic to them and their struggles. It doesn't make the statement any less disturbing. I think it is abominable that someone (I assume their parents) told them this bullshit to minimize the abuse they experienced and that the environment they grew up in apparently didn't contradict this information either.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Zella

[Chicklet]

3 hours ago, lascuba said:

That really doesn't matter for those who grew up with her, though. Whatever the reasons for the sibling dynamics, the effects are what they are and you can't just change your feeling about your siblings when those feelings had 2+ decades to settle in

I had fucked up parents and a fucked up brother who was the king and I pretty much hated him except I now have maturity to realize it wasn't his doing. I grew up. You can change your feelings about siblings if you are an adult. He will never be my best friend but yea I know better now.

The Duggars- you get what you get, there is little emotional maturity going on in that entire family so  they will always relate to their siblings in the infantile manner  they always have.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Chicklet

[BigBingerBro]

I personally think that TLC is just as disgusting as this family is.  The entire idea of a show should have been shut down never to be revisted again once the Josh-bomb broke.  Maybe that's an unpopular opinion, but it makes me sick seeing these people relish in having the ability to show themselves on TV as such caring, Christlike people, when in reality, they are the complete opposite.

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I don’t see TLC canceling the show as “punishing” the girls. 2 had husbands by then who were supposed to be “providing” for them, with the other 2 soon to follow.

Even if that were true it still wouldn't look good to cancel a show because a tabloid magazine made public four sisters were molested in childhood. I think a good many folks, even some who dislike the Duggars would have had negative feelings about that. A lot of folks would have seen it as getting fired for being a victim of sexual assault.

@lascuba, I think we're saying the same thing. I said TLC puts money and reputation before any of the families they employ. 

@Zella, It was a few years ago when I watched the interview, but I don't remember being bothered about Jessa and Jill saying its common. Maybe because as a therapist I often tell my clients, you're not alone, this has happened to others, this is more common than you think, in regard to a lot of topics I may be speaking to them about. Familial molestation may not be as common as work place sexual harassment, but its likely more common than being a victim of much of what is shown on Dateline (trying to stay delicate here). Folks just don't share this type of secret with many.

Edited December 20, 2020 by GeeGolly

[DangerousMinds]

15 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I personally think that TLC is just as disgusting as this family is.  The entire idea of a show should have been shut down never to be revisted again once the Josh-bomb broke.  Maybe that's an unpopular opinion, but it makes me sick seeing these people relish in having the ability to show themselves on TV as such caring, Christlike people, when in reality, they are the complete opposite.

Agree! Or TLC could actually show the reality of this family, instead of a whitewashed version.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Chicklet said:

You can change your feelings about siblings if you are an adult. He will never be my best friend but yea I know better now.

I totally agree, and I also agree that it's complicated with the Duggars because so many of them have such arrested development.

Also, I feel like the sibling relationships among this family are probably a bit different than most families, because the siblings basically parented each other. Just from what we saw on the specials and show, the Duggars seemed to me to run their household like a religiously repressive orphanage. I mean, the kids were/are better off than orphans obviously, but it seems more like an orphanage than a regular home to me in a lot of ways, what with the kids having no personal belongings and being subjected to one-size-fits-all discipline and the family doing everything (school, work, religious/worship) in-house, etc. And there just being SO MANY of them, honestly. I feel like maybe how they relate now might be sort of a mix of regular sibling relationships and...I dunno, the relationships of people who grew up in an institution together, you know?

Also, I have no idea what goes on in Joy's head, but any complex feelings she might have toward her family of origin might be projected onto Jill, as the current family scapegoat and as a mother figure to her. I feel like in such a fear-based environment like the Duggars', it might be a relief to have a scapegoat (if it's not you, anyway) and also it might be especially scary to be friendly toward the scapegoat in case you catch their "cooties." Just a thought, although of course Joy probably would vehemently disagree with all that lol

[Zella]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Even if that were true it still wouldn't look good to cancel a show because a tabloid magazine made public four sisters were molested in childhood. I think a good many folks, even some who dislike the Duggars would have had negative feelings about that. A lot of folks would have seen it as getting fired for being a victim of sexual assault.

@lascuba, I think we're saying the same thing. I said TLC puts money and reputation before any of the families they employ. 

@Zella, It was a few years ago when I watched the interview, but I don't remember being bothered about Jessa and Jill saying its common. Maybe because as a therapist I often tell my clients, you're not alone, this has happened to others, this is more common than you think, in regard to a lot of topics I may be speaking to them about. Familial molestation may not be as common as work place sexual harassment, but its likely more common than being a victim of much of what is shown on Dateline (trying to stay delicate here). Folks just don't share this type of secret with many.

I don't remember it being framed as "you're not alone," though. I remember the implications essentially being "most brothers molest their sisters, so get over it--no harm, no foul." And that's what bothered me. 

 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I don't remember it being framed as "you're not alone," though. I remember the implications essentially being "most brothers molest their sisters, so get over it--no harm, no foul." And that's what bothered me. 

 

Like I said, I don't really remember the nuances of the interview, but I didn't think they were saying that's a reason to take it lightly. My therapist brain heard more of a message of universality.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Like I said, I don't really remember the nuances of the interview, but I didn't think they were saying that's a reason to take it lightly. My therapist brain heard more of a message of universality.

Admittedly, it's been awhile since I watched it, too, and my memory tends to be more of my impressions than specific details. I also remember being really weirded out by Jessa's lack of response to Jill crying, even though I'm pretty inept at dealing with crying people too. 

I think I also found their phrasing dismissive because they kept making excuses about how the victims were asleep and it was over the clothing (both proven wrong in the police reports), but it was somehow as if that was also supposed to be less objectionable to attack you when you're asleep. 

[auntieminem]

That interview was awful and hard to watch. Jessa was so robotic and cold and Jill broke down crying while trying to say it was wrong but because of his age and curiosity it was not as bad.  I think they both were given a message and script; Jessa was able to get through it Jill not so much.  Also about Jill being a tattletale, wasn't she the one who caught Josh touching, one of the younger ones and told on him.  They should be glad at least that time she was a tattletale. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by auntieminem
tattletale is one word oops

[ginger90]

I put the interview in the media thread.

[DangerousMinds]

19 minutes ago, auntieminem said:

That interview was awful and hard to watch. Jessa was so robotic and cold and Jill broke down crying while trying to say it was wrong but because of his age and curiosity it was not as bad.  I think they both were given a message and script; Jessa was able to get through it Jill not so much.  Also about Jill being a tattle tale, wasn't she the one who caught Josh touching, one of the younger ones and told on him.  They should be glad at least that time she was a tattle tale. 

I agree. They owe Jill a lot for having had the courage to tell their parents about Josh. I wonder if any have ever thanked her? 😢

[Temperance]

On 12/17/2020 at 6:25 AM, Totally said:

How old is Ivy now? Could Jessa be pregnant, she has her wreath covering her stomach 🤔

Ivy is 18/19 months old and Jessa could easily be pregnant again with a child that age. 

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

I agree. They owe Jill a lot for having had the courage to tell their parents about Josh. I wonder if any have ever thanked her? 😢

I know this sounds sick but ... they probably blame her. Because their parents probably blamed them. So they felt as if if Jill hadn't "told" they wouldn't have been shamed.

I also think Joy for whatever reason is super-invested in the idea of portraying the Duggar life as the Most Perfect Ever. She might blame Jill for chipping away at that perfect reputation.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Growsonwalls

[emmawoodhouse]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

I don't remember it being framed as "you're not alone," though. I remember the implications essentially being "most brothers molest their sisters, so get over it--no harm, no foul." And that's what bothered me. 

 

And they came armed with STATS! I think it was Jill who spit out that molestations happened in something like 2/3 of families. Of course, her source was never cited. 

[Growsonwalls]

I think it could have been a coping mechanism of Jill and Jessa to think this is normal and happens all the time. 

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think it could have been a coping mechanism of Jill and Jessa to think this is normal and happens all the time. 

I'm sure it was, but it doesn't make it any less disturbing to me. 

[lascuba]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Even if that were true it still wouldn't look good to cancel a show because a tabloid magazine made public four sisters were molested in childhood. I think a good many folks, even some who dislike the Duggars would have had negative feelings about that. A lot of folks would have seen it as getting fired for being a victim of sexual assault.

I know it's a mistake to assume that the wider world and the internet agree on any given topic, but the overwhelming reaction to the scandal was calls for permanent cancellation. "Punishing" the victims wasn't part of the narrative at all.

5 hours ago, Zella said:

I don't remember it being framed as "you're not alone," though. I remember the implications essentially being "most brothers molest their sisters, so get over it--no harm, no foul." And that's what bothered me. 

 

That's exactly what it was. The entirely interview was a lambasting of the general public for daring to criticize how JB and Michelle handled things. Everything was so clearly scripted to let Josh off the hook and get the media off their backs.

5 hours ago, Zella said:

Admittedly, it's been awhile since I watched it, too, and my memory tends to be more of my impressions than specific details. I also remember being really weirded out by Jessa's lack of response to Jill crying, even though I'm pretty inept at dealing with crying people too. 

I think I also found their phrasing dismissive because they kept making excuses about how the victims were asleep and it was over the clothing (both proven wrong in the police reports), but it was somehow as if that was also supposed to be less objectionable to attack you when you're asleep. 

I've been saying this since that interview and at this point I'm convinced I'm the only one who feels this way, but I have to say it again...as someone who watched 19K from the very first special, I'm sure Jill's tears were 100% fake. Jill is a cryer. Always has been. I know what Jill looks like when she cries. That interview wasn't it. She was practically gouging her eye out trying to produce tears. Jessa's lack of response was completely reasonable, because they had rehearsed what they were going to say and Jill went off script.

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

And they came armed with STATS! I think it was Jill who spit out that molestations happened in something like 2/3 of families. Of course, her source was never cited. 

Yep, that was Jill. And Jessa pulled the, "In Touch is owned by PORN producer!" convinced it was checkmate and everyone would now shut up about the whole thing.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, lascuba said:

 And Jessa pulled the,  "In Touch is owned by PORN producer!"

Oh hell I forgot about that! 

[emmawoodhouse]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Oh hell I forgot about that! 

So did I! But it was already known, and not nearly as extreme a connection as Jessa made it out to be. Now that I'm reminded of it, I was waiting for them to play that card; I totally knew it was coming because of the fundie obsession with PORN. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by emmawoodhouse

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Oh hell I forgot about that! 

I wonder if she now realizes that porn and abuse are not similar at all.

[auntieminem]

I don't believe Jill's crying was fake and agree that neither wanted to do the interview but did so for their parents to save the show by down playing what Josh did and he was sorry. This interview was before the Ashley Madison stuff came out. Wonder what the script would have been if they knew that at the time of the interview. I think their responses of crying and cold was because they felt to blame and ashamed and they had to defend their parents and family.  Shame on JB and Michelle for putting them through that. 

[Zella]

11 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I wonder if she now realizes that porn and abuse are not similar at all.

Based on my own fundie encounters, I doubt it. I think I've mentioned on here people I know who think PG-13 sex scenes in movies are porn. Jessa seems one of the least inclined of the siblings to learn anything new and also one of the more combative when challenged, and I don't think anything has convinced her she was wrong about that. 

It also wouldn't surprise me if all of Josh's issues are blamed on porn rather than, you know, Josh.

5 minutes ago, auntieminem said:

Shame on JB and Michelle for putting them through that. 

Agreed! That was ultimately the point I was trying and apparently failing to make earlier when I commented on Jill's and Jessa's comments in the interview. I was not blaming them--I was blaming their parents and the toxic Gothard culture they grew up in that were no doubt the source of those ideas. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Zella