S03.E09: Who's Dead?

[lazylou]

On November 17, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Fuck that!  I'm angry but you know what?  I'm free.  I'm free of this show.  I can release myself now.

I hope Alfred becomes a movie star or something.  I know he was in the Harry Potter movies but I've never watched them so eh.

Huh?

I think he will somehow be resurrected.  Or, maybe he did kill himself rather than rat out Annalise.

i thought he was the best actor of the original group.  Maybe he is moving on to better pastures.

[dr pepper]

I don't think Annalise is safe. In fact, i'd like to see a show where she's gone, one way or another, and the crew has graduated and gone into practice.

Lawyers Without Boundaries: No Case too Twisted! Yes, We'll Go There! Call Our 24 Hour Hotline Now!

I mean, who else would they be able to work with but each other?

Edited November 19, 2016 by dr pepper

[Chairperson Meow]

I literally yelled out "Oh my God!" when I saw Wes under the sheet.   They got me.  That was some George O'Malley level stuff there.  I think Wes still had/has a lot of storyline potential.  But the emotional impact of his death is going to be awesome.  Viola will definitely rock those scenes, as Wes was kinda like her surrogate son. 

[FiveByFive]

4 hours ago, vanarnd1 said:

I am kind of torn on Wes being killed. I pulled for him as a character because of all the trauma he went through, but he always seemed to be the the cause of the team's problems. Even this season I don't think he even gave an good explanation for lying about seeing Mahoney in New York which made things worse for the Keating 5.  Also we know the second half of this season will be about finding out how Wes died, and if they had killed off Frank or Nate it wouldn't have had the same emotional impact. Even in that hospital scene I think the visceral reaction of the group was more about the fact that someone from the core group was actually killed over the lies and deception they have all been forced into, and it made them aware of their own mortality.  I think going forward the show might have more room to breathe without Wes in the present tense..

Exactly. I agree with every point you made. 

I do believe that Wes is actually dead and was clearly the best choice storywise to bite the bullet. Nearly everything this group has been through on the show has been related to Wes. Accidentally offing Annie's husband, his infatuation with Rebecca, the plot with his father which lead to him being killed - all roads point to Wes. Wes being dead means they could potentially get out of a lot of old plot they have built up tied to his character. Don't get me wrong, I love the actor but the character has been through so much.

I don't think he's gone from the show, however, only because even Rebecca kept appearing for the rest of the season she was on long after she died. So I expect to see the last of him at the end of this season.

The real issue I have with this show is, while I find it refreshing that they're honest about not "planning" everything, it's also super annoying. The only real rule they've accidentally established is that the obvious people are never actually the killer. So that means Bonnie, Nate and Frank probably didn't kill him. On the other hand their writing has to be good enough that it makes it look like they planned for the character in question to be the murderer all along.

For all we and they know Meggy could have killed him (in a jealous rage ... because she's crazy ... because we didn't know she was ... because they'll show us in flashbacks that she was crazy all along ... and then she'll run to the hospital and act shocked) or he killed himself (because he was already losing it, wasn't he?) and I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with one of those two solutions. 

It's just amazing. A friend commented that they "knew" Wes was under the sheet because of the way AK acted when she saw the body. The entire time I was thinking, "But ... Viola said ... she was looking at a dummy ... and she didn't even know who was dead ..."

Edited November 19, 2016 by FiveByFive

[love2lovebadtv]

On 11/17/2016 at 11:56 PM, blackwing said:

Woohooooooo!  Thank the stars, Wes is dead!  I have loathed this character pretty much from the start.  The actor is mediocre and I won't miss those sad puppy dog eyes look that was his go-to move.  He ate the show during the first two seasons.  Kudos to Shonda and company for having the guts to kill off the show's special snowflake.  People like Meredith Grey and Daisy "Quake" Johnson who have the entire show revolve around them.   

For those who said they would be upset if one of the Keating 5 were killed, I don't share that sentiment.  I think it's refreshing that one of the major characters was killed.  It keeps viewers on their toes.  Game of Thrones has done it multiple times, Grey's Anatomy did it multiple times, thirtysomething killed off Gary, E.R. killed Mark Greene, Lost killed many people, etc.

This episode was masterful.  The only thing that seemed out of place was the purpose of Annalise's confrontation with Atwood.  Is that really what Brett Butler looks like now, or did she put some stuff in her mouth to make her face look jacked up?  I get that she has aged, but she looked rough.   I think Viola Davis and Famke Janssen are roughly about the same age and they look fantastic.

Brett Butler has is closer to 60, I think, and she has had drug problems.  I think the drug problem is what makes her look older.  That, genetics, and possibly makeup. 

[Keepitmoving]

32 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Brett Butler has is closer to 60, I think, and she has had drug problems.  I think the drug problem is what makes her look older.  That, genetics, and possibly makeup. 

Yes, she's suffered from drug addiction so that will take its toll and definitely age you beyond your years. Plus I do think hair and make up aged her even more for effect for this role. 

At any rate, good to see she's still in the game.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[LaJefaza]

11 hours ago, secnarf said:

That's interesting. I don't even view the Wes flash-forward from a few weeks ago as a fakeout. If people thought it happened after the fire, well, that's them making their own assumptions. All the flash-forward really showed was that it was the same day (from clothing of the officers), and the fire seemed to be in the evening of that day, meaning there is plenty of time before the fire for other things to happen. It's not like they showed us Wes and Laurel in bed together with a TV on showing news about the fire, and later on we find out it was just Laurel's dream while she was unconscious. I'd definitely call that a fakeout and people would have a right to be pissed. However, people make a lot of assumptions, and with this show, that's never a safe bet. The point of these flashbacks is that they're only little snippets without any context, and you can't always take them at face value. Remember ADA Sinclair's body falling last season?

Oh I definitely agree with you re assumptions, but I can't blame people for believing what they were told by ABC: that each week, one 'safe' person would be revealed.

I had been banging on and on about Wes being under the sheet for weeks on this very board and people probably thought I was crazy, lol. So when that episode aired I already had that preconception that he was dead, and that scene in the police station actually confirmed it for me. With each of the 'safe' people shown in the weeks before, the 'safe' person was shown interacting in some way with someone we knew for sure was alive after the fire: Oliver and Bonnie spoke with Annalise, Bonnie spoke with Michaela, Michaela spoke with Asher, and Laurel was shown alive and injured in the hospital, as the 'second body'. Wes was shown alone in a darkened room talking to cops, at an undisclosed time. And he was WAY too calm...if Laurel was injured, which he would definitely have known about if this was after the fire, he would have been a lot more agitated. We know how Wes gets when it comes to a woman he loves. So I guessed immediately that it was before the fire. Between that and what I considered his "swan song" scenes with Laurel (all the lovey dovey bed scenes, he "had always liked her, from the very beginning", and then Laurel being pregnant) I was sure it was him. Connor was the only other questionable one, but as I said I was so sure it was Wes, I took Connor's hookup being present time at face value. Frank, to me, was too obvious so I never once thought it was him. And I didn't think Nate's death would have warranted all the fanfare. He just wasn't THAT important. The way ABC was hyping the reveal, I knew it had to be something big. It HAD to be one of the K5.

BUT, to be fair to the people who feel duped, the preview from the beginning of the season clearly stated that each week they would reveal "one person who's NOT dead". Wes' scene at the police station was deliberately shown at the same point at which 'safe' people were revealed in the previous weeks' episodes: the final 30 seconds. It was deliberately presented in a way to make viewers believe Wes was alive. Technically, it was a fakeout. So, you're right that people made their own assumption about what was being presented to them, but that assumption was directly guided by ABC's declaration at the beginning of the season. I can't fault people for feeling like they were lied to.

[Keepitmoving]

The actress who plays Laurel was trying not to laugh during the scene with Brett Buutler. Her face was hilarious as Asher tried to rush them out at the end of that scene. 

[Milaxx]

8 hours ago, Pollock said:

Anyway: for those who think Bonnie had him killed or killed Wes herself. How do we reconcile that with all the "she won't survive this" talk about Frank offing himself and all that? Real question. Because if Frank's death would break Annalise, how Wes's death, her surrogate son, could be surmontable? Or was it a case of short term solution?

While I don't think Bonnie had Wes killed, specifically that she had Frank kill him, I do find it entirely plausible that Bonnie would kill him herself. She's already shown that she will kill if she thinks AK is in danger (Rebecca). If Bonnie found out that Wes was going to snitch on AK that might be enough for her. As for the after effect of Wes' death on her, AK is a survivor, she will survive. However it will damage her. Much like losing her baby damaged her. The guilt  will add to her dysfunction. The grief will weigh on her. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

There was another show that swore up and down a character was dead   The actor did the interviews  to support it and then bam,  not dead  

Heh, as much as I love HTGAWM, it is no Game of Thrones.

I guess we now know virtually anything is possible on this show but I don't see Bonnie killing Wes. I don't think the character could survive that because Annalise would never forgive her. AK barely tolerates her now (though that may be taking an interesting turn...) and I don't know why she'd accept the "but I did it for you" excuse again.

[Keepitmoving]

I will say, I did not miss Wes in any of the fun banter scenes between the  Keating-4 in this episode and that says something. I'm trying to think if he's ever brought any charming wit, sex appeal or humour to a scene like I've seen the other four bring. I do think the character served his purpose .

Edited November 19, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Delphi]

I have a lot of thoughts on the episode ,  none of which are make much since at the moment. But my main concern is Alf's interview with ew.   Where he said that Wes and Laurel were more moralistic than the likes of Michaela and Connor.   Because now I'm wondering if I've been watching a different show for three years, as I've never once thought that to be the case given all the horrible shit Laurel and Wes do. 

[Tiger]

6 minutes ago, Delphi said:

I have a lot of thoughts on the episode ,  none of which are make much since at the moment. But my main concern is Alf's interview with ew.   Where he said that Wes and Laurel were more moralistic than the likes of Michaela and Connor.   Because now I'm wondering if I've been watching a different show for three years, as I've never once thought that to be the case given all the horrible shit Laurel and Wes do. 

Seriously, Connor and Michaela have been extremely torn up and remorseful about what they were forced into.  Meanwhile, Laurel gladly goes along with the latest crime while Wes murdered a man in cold blood and just committed perjury to send an innocent man to prison.  

[darkestboy]

Holy fuck, I can't believe they actually killed Wes. That double bluff, huh?

I know he's been polarising at times but I will actually miss the character and everyone's reactions to his death really showed his overall importance to the show.

I didn't expect that he was killed before the fire though. Not sure who to guess on that one but it's our mystery for the second half set up nicely though.

Atwood seems a bit of a psycho too. Her obsession with Annalise in this one creeped me out a little.

Anyone else gonna address the snogs between Michaela/Laurel and Annalise/Bonnie? One played for laughs, the other tender but still a little shocking though.

What will they do with Frank in the second half of this season as well, I'm curious.

Intrigued by the issues with Michaela and her mother. Not surprised that Asher sent a selfie of himself to Trishelle though.

Oliver just pieced things about Sam's murder thanks to Connor's big mouth, 9/10

[JaggedLilPill]

I constantly feel like I've been watching a different show with the narrative that Wes killed Sam like it was some premeditated act. Sam was literally choking Rebecca and Wes acted in a moment of defense. It doesn't make it right, but it's definitely worlds apart than what both Bonnie and Frank did - and possibly still continue to do. And considering Sam facilitated the murder of an innocent woman who was pregnant, I can't really be that bothered by what happened to him. 

[stuckin60s]

Question, when Frank was in the house with the woman and child, he left and said he had not done any harm to them.  Didn't Bonnie tell him to go back in and take care of them?

[dgpolo]

I don't remember Wes killing anyone -in cold blood- when did that happen.

12 minutes ago, stuckin60s said:

Question, when Frank was in the house with the woman and child, he left and said he had not done any harm to them.  Didn't Bonnie tell him to go back in and take care of them?

She told him to go back in, but as far as we know, all he did was place a call from the house phone to the burner phone Annalise had bought to prove collusion.

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

Wes murdered a man in cold blood and just committed perjury to send an innocent man to prison.

Charles Mahoney isn't exactly innocent. He didn't kill his father, but all the evidence points to the fact that he did kill his girlfriend 12 years ago.  Like most of the players on this show, no one is completely innocent and blame free.

30 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

 

I constantly feel like I've been watching a different show with the narrative that Wes killed Sam like it was some premeditated act. Sam was literally choking Rebecca and Wes acted in a moment of defense.

 

No one has said that Wes killing Sam was premediated. The K5 are stuck in circumstances they never planned or expected. They are resentful of Wes because it was his obsession and/or attraction to her that brought into their circle. Truth be told Nate shares a fare amount of blame for telling her to try and get to Sam's laptop. Still the fact remains  Rebecca was in the house illegally trying to copy info off Sam's laptop. 

35 minutes ago, stuckin60s said:

Question, when Frank was in the house with the woman and child, he left and said he had not done any harm to them.  Didn't Bonnie tell him to go back in and take care of them?

Yes but Annalise came back in the house with the burner phones before he could do anything. 

[JaggedLilPill]

10 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

No one has said that Wes killing Sam was premediated. The K5 are stuck in circumstances they never planned or expected. They are resentful of Wes because it was his obsession and/or attraction to her that brought into their circle. Truth be told Nate shares a fare amount of blame for telling her to try and get to Sam's laptop. Still the fact remains  Rebecca was in the house illegally trying to copy info off Sam's laptop.

My words were hyperbole. Obviously it wasn't premeditated. It's just frustrating as someone who likes Wes as a character. 

[cali1981]

22 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I don't think Wes's death robbed Laurel of any future story opportunities, there is still her whole backstory to be explored. However, she lost her last confidante unless Frank and her get back together. She isn't very close to the other Keating 5.

Let's see. Laurel, Frank, Bonnie, possibly the most bizarre, disgusting, wonderful train wreck of a love triangle of all time.  Yes please!

Edited November 19, 2016 by cali1981

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

I have a lot of thoughts on the episode ,  none of which are make much since at the moment. But my main concern is Alf's interview with ew.   Where he said that Wes and Laurel were more moralistic than the likes of Michaela and Connor.   Because now I'm wondering if I've been watching a different show for three years, as I've never once thought that to be the case given all the horrible shit Laurel and Wes do. 

Quote

Seriously, Connor and Michaela have been extremely torn up and remorseful about what they were forced into.  Meanwhile, Laurel gladly goes along with the latest crime while Wes murdered a man in cold blood and just committed perjury to send an innocent man to prison.  

Well I've read many comments akin to calling Connor a psychopath so goes to show you that yes, we can all watch the same show and interpret the same events very differently. Look how many are ready to jump on the idea that he killed Wes. Yes, nevermind that Connor and Michaela were the ones who had complete breakdowns the night of Sam's murder, Connor ended up traumatized at Oliver's and they were the ones who were ready to go to the police and confess.

And Connor was the one to say Annalise was insane when she asked them to shoot her and said he wanted no part of any of that, while Wes pulled the trigger because she said the magic word, Rebecca. And as for Laurel, she was the one still chasing down the guy who told her he murdered a young woman in cold blood. 

None of the characters on this show are entirely innocent and at this point, their hands are all dirty in some way. But it is interesting how harshly Connor, more so than Michaela, gets judged sometimes when we have someone like Frank who slowly choked the life out of someone, Bonnie who coldly and calmly put a bag over someone's head and suffocated them and Asher who backed his car on a woman. 

Quote

My words were hyperbole. Obviously it wasn't premeditated. It's just frustrating as someone who likes Wes as a character. 

I liked Wes well enough. But the character could be very frustrating and it's why I disagreed with the harsh judgements against Connor and Michaela for their anger and conflicted feelings towards Wes. So many like to label Connor and Michaela as these selfish whiners who only think about themselves. But the fact is, if they had been more like that, they probably wouldn't have gotten caught in a mess that's become way over their heads. 

The fact is Connor, for example, did end up at that house that night because Wes was adamant that Sam was guilty and Rebecca was in danger. They were genuinely trying to help and then Sam ends up dead. Then Annalise gets involved, unbeknownst to them and the whole thing spirals some more. Then later they start to realize that Rebecca could be really shady and was lying the whole time, so the whole thing becomes even more messed up and then she apparently vanishes. Because does everyone realize that the K5 don't know that Rebecca is truly dead?

That's why Annalise dropped the bomb to Wes to get him to shoot her but then afterwards she said she just said that because she knew it would work. They still think she might have just run off. So in Connor and Michaela's mind, Wes got involved with this person who might have been lying the whole time and now she's out there somewhere and knows what happened the night Sam died. And the fact is despite his mistakes and actions, Wes could be very judgmental and self-righteous, which was very annoying considering the things he got away with.

And I agree with another poster about the unnecessary lie about seeing Charles Mahoney that night. The situation was fixed, all he had to do was stick to his original story of asking the man for directions and move on. No, he tags on a lie that now makes him a star witness for a case that the goal was to remove him from. And then he's all pouty that Annalise is mad at him when she asks him why he would do that. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[JaggedLilPill]

30 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I liked Wes well enough. But the character could be very frustrating and it's why I disagreed with the harsh judgements against Connor and Michaela for their anger and conflicted feelings towards Wes. So many like to label Connor and Michaela as these selfish whiners who only think about themselves. But the fact is, if they had been more like that, they probably wouldn't have gotten caught in a mess that's become way over their heads. 

The fact is Connor, for example, did end up at that house that night because Wes was adamant that Sam was guilty and Rebecca was in danger. They were genuinely trying to help and then Sam ends up dead. Then Annalise gets involved, unbeknownst to them and the whole thing spirals some more. Then later they start to realize that Rebecca could be really shady and was lying the whole time, so the whole thing becomes even more messed up and then she apparently vanishes. Because does everyone realize that the K5 don't know that Rebecca is truly dead?

That's why Annalise dropped the bomb to Wes to get him to shoot her but then afterwards she said she just said that because she knew it would work. They still think she might have just run off. So in Connor and Michaela's mind, Wes got involved with this person who might have been lying the whole time and now she's out there somewhere and knows what happened the night Sam died. And the fact is despite his mistakes and actions, Wes could be very judgmental and self-righteous, which was very annoying considering the things he got away with.

And I agree with another poster about the unnecessary lie about seeing Charles Mahoney that night. The situation was fixed, all he had to do was stick to his original story of asking the man for directions and move on. No, he tags on a lie that now makes him a star witness for a case that the goal was to remove him from. And then he's all pouty that Annalise is mad at him when she asks him why he would do that. 

Fair enough.

My issues are less with Connor and Michaela and more with Frank and Bonnie.  More than anything, they're the reasons the K5 got in this mess and continue to be in this mess. Especially Frank! 

I mean the dude thinks killing Mahoney is a way to avenge Annalise? Great logic...not. Wes' decision to lie about Charles was definitely all on him, but Frank's the only reason Wes was even talking to Mahoney that night and he took Wes with him as a life shield against Annalise. If it was Mahoney's wife that had a hand in killing Wes, that's more blood on Frank's hands. 

But at the end of the day, they're all terrible people LOL. 

I'm kind of hoping this show goes the way of Revenge and ends after a season 4. Or honestly, I'd be okay with this season being the last too. Nowalk clearly doesn't plan things out and I'm sure while it works for the cast and crew, as a viewer, I'm not a fan of the 'pulls stories out of their ass' school of storytelling. 

[sking24450]

4 hours ago, Delphi said:

I have a lot of thoughts on the episode ,  none of which are make much since at the moment. But my main concern is Alf's interview with ew.   Where he said that Wes and Laurel were more moralistic than the likes of Michaela and Connor.   Because now I'm wondering if I've been watching a different show for three years, as I've never once thought that to be the case given all the horrible shit Laurel and Wes do. 

I read the quote and it didn't seem to me that he was saying that.  Here was the quote:

Quote

What do you think it says about the show that the person with sort of the biggest moral compass is the one being killed off?
That’s good. It frees it up. I mean, do I see him as that? I don’t know. I guess I think about him more absolutely than in relation. I think Wes would think of it, to some degree, like that. Laurel is someone else who has a moral compass, but maybe a bit more of a different relationship with it, and Asher I think also. I think Michaela and Connor are quite unscrupulous, but it depends. The fun thing is that the show challenges those assumptions, right? It’s not just it’s the moral character and he’s gone and the rest of them aren’t moral. I like that the show challenges our expectations of the characters and some characters are seemingly moral or not, and what’s the gray area here, because I think it’s simplistic to say someone is the good person, someone is the bad person. He does have that, but they’ve dragged him through the muck, and I think that’s interesting.

Especially with the last line it seemed like he was acknowledging that Wes has been hanging out in the muck at this stage.

[nutty1]

I watched "Wes" on Jimmy Kimmel. I was blown away.....am I the only one who did not know he was British?? He seemed like a totally different person!

[J.D.]

2 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

I watched "Wes" on Jimmy Kimmel. I was blown away.....am I the only one who did not know he was British?? He seemed like a totally different person!

I knew but I had forgotten until I started watching his post-show interviews.  I hope whatever series he's on in the future he uses his regular voice.  :)

[Tiger]

6 minutes ago, J.D. said:

I knew but I had forgotten until I started watching his post-show interviews.  I hope whatever series he's on in the future he uses his regular voice.  :)

I would be very surprised if he didnt join another Shondaland and/or ABC Studios existing show or sure-to-be-picked-up pilot.  

Edited November 19, 2016 by Tiger

[tvfanatic13]

46 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

Fair enough.

My issues are less with Connor and Michaela and more with Frank and Bonnie.  More than anything, they're the reasons the K5 got in this mess and continue to be in this mess. Especially Frank! 

I mean the dude thinks killing Mahoney is a way to avenge Annalise? Great logic...not. Wes' decision to lie about Charles was definitely all on him, but Frank's the only reason Wes was even talking to Mahoney that night and he took Wes with him as a life shield against Annalise. If it was Mahoney's wife that had a hand in killing Wes, that's more blood on Frank's hands. 

But at the end of the day, they're all terrible people LOL. 

I'm kind of hoping this show goes the way of Revenge and ends after a season 4. Or honestly, I'd be okay with this season being the last too. Nowalk clearly doesn't plan things out and I'm sure while it works for the cast and crew, as a viewer, I'm not a fan of the 'pulls stories out of their ass' school of storytelling. 

I feel differently. This show keeps suprising and suprising. As long as it can keep doing that, keep it on for years. 

[Grace19]

21 hours ago, Milaxx said:

I don't see it as shock value. It was plot driven. I am always impressed with a show that is willing to "go there" and kill off a main character. The ripples of this will be long and deep. The thing to remember is these are anti-heroes.  Just like we cheering for Walt to get away with his deeds on Breaking Bad, love Omar ripping and running and Stringerbell doing everything he did, we love watching  characters like this. I am excited to see what comes next. I doubt Frank is let back into Annalise's good graces anytime soon, but he'll be back in Philly and in contact with Bonnie. The fact that we had Wes's back story is why his death has meaning. If he was just another student in AK's class we wouldn't care one bit.

No, it was for shock value, when show runners don't even know who to kill by the seventh episode, its shock value and lack of good planning. I read the producer's interview. And I call bullshit on the risk taking, hey choose Wes because most people were complaining about him, and felt that he won't be missed, They will never kill Conner off.
 

[Grace19]

21 hours ago, Milaxx said:

I don't see it as shock value. It was plot driven. I am always impressed with a show that is willing to "go there" and kill off a main character. The ripples of this will be long and deep. The thing to remember is these are anti-heroes.  Just like we cheering for Walt to get away with his deeds on Breaking Bad, love Omar ripping and running and Stringerbell doing everything he did, we love watching  characters like this. I am excited to see what comes next. I doubt Frank is let back into Annalise's good graces anytime soon, but he'll be back in Philly and in contact with Bonnie. The fact that we had Wes's back story is why his death has meaning. If he was just another student in AK's class we wouldn't care one bit.

No, it was for shock value, when show runners don't even know who to kill by the seventh episode, its shock value and lack of good planning. I read the producer's interview. And I call bullshit on the risk taking, hey choose Wes because most people were complaining about him, and felt that he won't be missed, They will never kill Conner off.
 

[lazylou]

Since Wes killed Tom, though accidentally and justifiably, the plot seems to have come full circle now that he is gone...at least as a living character.  

The plot of this show is really so silly and so unrealistic it is hard to understand all the words that have been expended discussing it.  The story seems to veer from one catastrophic event to another without any particular rhyme or reason.  The idea seems to be just to keep the show going from one episode to the next.  I truly doubt there was ever any over-reaching storyline.

Scandal seems to me to have become just as ridiculous in the last several seasons.  At least, though, it is based on an actual person. Or was initially.

[Aquarius97]

3 minutes ago, lazylou said:

Since Wes killed Tom, though accidentally and justifiably, the plot seems to have come full circle now that he is gone...at least as a living character.  

The plot of this show is really so silly and so unrealistic it is hard to understand all the words that have been expended discussing it.  The story seems to veer from one catastrophic event to another without any particular rhyme or reason.  The idea seems to be just to keep the show going from one episode to the next.  I truly doubt there was ever any over-reaching storyline.

Scandal seems to me to have become just as ridiculous in the last several seasons.  At least, though, it is based on an actual person. Or was initially.

Who's Tom? I guess you mean Sam

Edited November 19, 2016 by Aquarius97

[lazylou]

Oh, AK's hubby was not named Tom?  What ever his name was, then...  Sam...I mean Sam.  (The actor is named Tom) 

Edited November 19, 2016 by lazylou

[Eolivet]

6 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

BUT, to be fair to the people who feel duped, the preview from the beginning of the season clearly stated that each week they would reveal "one person who's NOT dead". Wes' scene at the police station was deliberately shown at the same point at which 'safe' people were revealed in the previous weeks' episodes: the final 30 seconds. It was deliberately presented in a way to make viewers believe Wes was alive. Technically, it was a fakeout. So, you're right that people made their own assumption about what was being presented to them, but that assumption was directly guided by ABC's declaration at the beginning of the season. I can't fault people for feeling like they were lied to.

First: mad props to you, Lajefaza -- I was persuaded by the promos, but you never were. You called it, and kept calling it.

I think everyone else has covered the main points, but I have to say this episode reminded me of a couple things. First, that the promotion department and the creative department are completely separate entities. I don't believe now (unless I hear otherwise) that the creatives went to promotion and said "OK, we're going to reveal one safe person a week." I think the promotional people saw the episodes or were given a briefing of them, and came up with the idea on their own.

Because to me, if you completely ignore the promos, this was brilliant. Because if you rejected the idea that it was Nate from the beginning, it was like a Ten Little Indians-type set-up, except they kept showing people (instead of killing people) and you knew -- or suspected -- that something had to be off or amiss with one of the stories because not everyone could be safe. So, if you eliminated Nate from the start as the creators hardcore trolling the audience, the key was to spot the inconsistency, or to piece together who couldn't be safe, despite them telling you otherwise.

And it had to be Wes, because he featured so prominently in the arc, and as I (and likely others) said months ago, eliminating him sort of wipes the slate clean, storywise. It piles Sam, Rebecca, Annalise's past, Frank, and the Mahoneys (likely after season 3B) onto a boat and sets it on fire as it drifts away. I appreciated that Wes was a true tragic figure. Despite myself, my heart breaks for Annalise, and while Viola Davis swears up and down that she didn't know who was under the sheet, I think on some level, she did. After all, her tragic, primal scream of despair echoed Annalise and Wes' primal screams of anger from the season premiere.

I wish I'd stuck to my guns, like Lajefaza, because it was the only death that ever made sense as a "shocking" death. But every shocking TV death I watch teaches me something new. What I'll take away from this: Don't trust the promo people. Ever.

Great, great season -- on par or better than season 1. I'll be back with bells on January 19!

[Keepitmoving]

I don't really get where the hell a baby fits into the mix on this show. It seems ridiculous to me. If there was ever a show to hold off with white picket fences, marriage and babies until its last season, it's this show. None of these main characters should be having babies and I'm not really here for another baby on a Shondaland show losing its life for any reason. So she needs to have this baby so I can then see her walking around with the baby under one arm while the dead bodies keep dropping right and left all around, ugh. This "ain't" fucking Grey's Anatomy. Shit, there's a reason why I don't watch that crap show anymore.

13 minutes ago, lazylou said:

Oh, AK's hubby was not named Tom?  What ever his name was, then...  Wes killed him, mostly to defend the girlfriend.

His name was Sam.

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Because does everyone realize that the K5 don't know that Rebecca is truly dead?

She did tell them during the Hapstall mess. Are we assuming they didn't believe her?

3 hours ago, JaggedLilPill said:

Or honestly, I'd be okay with this season being the last too. Nowalk clearly doesn't plan things out and I'm sure while it works for the cast and crew, as a viewer, I'm not a fan of the 'pulls stories out of their ass' school of storytelling. 

Is there an article where it says Nowalk didn't know? I know the cast wasn't made aware until shortly before filming. It's pretty typical of network tv to only be may 3 or 4 episodes ahead in terms of writing. I recall on Breaking Bad the writers saying they liked writing themselves into a corner just to force them out of it. Not sure I'd call it "pull stories out their ass" storytelling. From what I've read the plan was always to kill off a major character. I'm not overly invested in any of the characters other than Viola that killing them off would make me stop watching. 

58 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I don't really get where the hell a baby fits into the mix on this show. It seems ridiculous to me. If there was ever a show to hold off with white picket fences, marriage and babies until its last season, it's this show. None of these main characters should be having babies and I'm not really here for another baby on a Shondaland show losing its life for any reason. So she needs to have this baby so I can then see her walking around with the baby under one arm while the dead bodies keep dropping right and left all around, ugh. This "ain't" fucking Grey's Anatomy. Shit, there's a reason why I don't watch that crap show anymore.

His name was Sam.

A pregnancy doesn't necessarily mean a baby. She could miscarry/abort or give the child up for adoption. My guess is it will be one of the first 2.

Also props to @Lajefaza for calling it.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Milaxx

[JaggedLilPill]

4 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Is there an article where it says Nowalk didn't know? I know the cast wasn't made aware until shortly before filming. It's pretty typical of network tv to only be may 3 or 4 episodes ahead in terms of writing. I recall on Breaking Bad the writers saying they liked writing themselves into a corner just to force them out of it. Not sure I'd call it "pull stories out their ass" storytelling. From what I've read the plan was always to kill off a major character. I'm not overly invested in any of the characters other than Viola that killing them off would make me stop watching. 

I think in the media thread there's a bunch where he says he was still wavering until the seventh episode, which is only two before this one. That's when he definitively decided.

Anyway, it's not important. I'm glad the show is still enjoyable for some. It's just not so much for me anymore. 

Oh well.

[secnarf]

32 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

I think everyone else has covered the main points, but I have to say this episode reminded me of a couple things. First, that the promotion department and the creative department are completely separate entities. I don't believe now (unless I hear otherwise) that the creatives went to promotion and said "OK, we're going to reveal one safe person a week." I think the promotional people saw the episodes or were given a briefing of them, and came up with the idea on their own.

...

Despite myself, my heart breaks for Annalise, and while Viola Davis swears up and down that she didn't know who was under the sheet, I think on some level, she did. After all, her tragic, primal scream of despair echoed Annalise and Wes' primal screams of anger from the season premiere.

I learned the first part the hard way several years ago - I can't remember what the show was, but there was a blatant lie in the promo for the episode. And since then, I've seen promos showing scenes and promoting storylines that were cut from the show (e.g. Code Black), promos saying things that are flat-out wrong even without seeing the episode, and promos telling me information that I feel hasn't yet been made explicit on the show (e.g. Designated Survivor and their whole 'we know McLeish is guilty' voiceover). FWIW, I never saw a single promo for this show saying one safe character would be revealed per episode, so I think it's pretty clear it was just the American ABC promo monkeys rather than coming from the top. Anyways, I hadn't ruled Wes out based on that flash forward, but I sure wasn't convinced that it WAS him, either. Retrospectively it makes a lot of sense, though.

As to your second point, I hadn't noticed that! I think I would really appreciate the symmetry if they had planned it out that way. But since Nowalk states at pretty much every opportunity that he doesn't really plan things out, that takes away from my enjoyment of little things like this, as well as the larger storyline - I care less about speculating and picking up on 'clues' since they weren't left intentionally. I don't think the lack of planning was all that great for the cast either - AE joked in an interview how it was like a reality TV show with each of them wondering who would be safe each week.

I believe Viola Davis has said a while back that she knows what happens in the second half of the season though, so I hope that was planned.

[Milaxx]

10 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

Anyway, it's not important. I'm glad the show is still enjoyable for some. It's just not so much for me anymore. 

Oh well.

Sorry this killed it for you. I no longer get invested in characters on shows. I learned back in the 80's when shows like St. Elsewhere and Hill Street Blues started killing major characters that anyone can be vulnerable if the writers think it makes for good story.

[Keepitmoving]

35 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

 

A pregnancy doesn't necessarily mean a baby. She could miscarry/abort or give the child up for adoption. My guess is it will be one of the 2.

 

But that was my point, I don't want anymore dead babies on Shondaland shows. Now the adoption option, even better an open adoption would be great. Then when the show comes to an end we can see her with little "Wes." But Shondaland needs to give it a rest with losing babies.

I too agree, that as long as Viola is kicking it on this show, I here to support her. But I will be extremely upset if and when something happens to Michaela and Connor.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[starri]

9 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Sorry this killed it for you. I no longer get invested in characters on shows. I learned back in the 80's when shows like St. Elsewhere and Hill Street Blues started killing major characters that anyone can be vulnerable if the writers think it makes for good story.

Also known by Joss Whedon's maxim "Give them what they need, not what they want."  Which, I'll confess, I do find a bit haughty.

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

She did tell them during the Hapstall mess. Are we assuming they didn't believe her?

No, she didn't. When Annalise was trying to get someone to shoot her, she told Wes, Rebecca was dead when he too was walking away and said he wouldn't do it. At that point, Connor and Michaela had already walked out. Laurel was there and told Wes, Annalise was lying just to get him to do what she wanted. Later, when Annalise was in the hospital, she told Laurel she was right and she just said the comment about Rebecca because she knew it would work but that she didn't know where Rebecca was.

Connor and Michaela had no part in any of that so no, they don't know Rebecca is definitely dead. Because keep in mind a good part of Season 2 and their annoyance then with Wes, was his determination to prove that something did happen to Rebecca, which he thought Frank was behind and what led to his meeting Rebecca's half-brother. They never figured out that Bonnie murdered her. 

Edited November 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I watched "Wes" on Jimmy Kimmel. I was blown away.....am I the only one who did not know he was British??

This is slightly OT but he was on Wendy William's show back before the season started and she made a ridiculous fuss about his accent. It was like she couldn't parse hearing a young Black man speak with a British accent and she actually had the nerve to ask him to conduct the interview in his American accent instead of his natural voice. I hope they had warned him she was going to do that but if not he was quite charming about it. He actually pointed out his own uncertainty with certain words because he hadn't worked on them with his dialect coach yet.

[Milaxx]

Thanks @truthaboutluv - I couldn't recall exactly how that played out.

[TwistedandBored]

I didn't think they would kill of Wes. I was hoping Nate to be the body and was surprised when it was not. The show really went there. I can't wait for the second half of the season. 

[jvr]

@Joimiaroxeu I would love another reason to call Wendy Williams an ignorant ass fool but I'll give her a pass on this one (though I haven't seen it so I reserve the right to change my mind). Her making him speak in his fake American accent is dumb but being surprised to hear him speak when you think he is American from the roles you know can be jarring. People who hear Idris Elba speak for the first time and only know him from The Wire are always stunned and think he is playing around. There are a lot more British (and other countries) actors on American tv playing American than maybe ever before. I've been tricked by a lot of actors recently and only found out they aren't from the US by happening upon their imdb page.

Quote

Connor and Michaela had no part in any of that so no, they don't know Rebecca is definitely dead. Because keep in mind a good part of Season 2 and their annoyance then with Wes, was his determination to prove that something did happen to Rebecca, which he thought Frank was behind and what led to his meeting Rebecca's half-brother. They never figured out that Bonnie murdered her. 

It's so hard to keep all of this straight but this is very important info especially now that Rebecca's body has been found.

Edited November 20, 2016 by jvr

[morgankobi]

1 hour ago, jvr said:

@Joimiaroxeu I would love another reason to call Wendy Williams an ignorant ass fool but I'll give her a pass on this one (though I haven't seen it so I reserve the right to change my mind). Her making him speak in his fake American accent is dumb but being surprised to hear him speak when you think he is American from the roles you know can be jarring. People who hear Idris Elba speak for the first time and only know him from The Wire are always stunned and think he is playing around. There are a lot more British (and other countries) actors on American tv playing American than maybe ever before. I've been tricked by a lot of actors recently and only found out they aren't from the US by happening upon their imdb page.

It's so hard to keep all of this straight but this is very important info especially now that Rebecca's body has been found.

Well, I would think people who had risen to the level of a talk show host/interviewer would at least do a few minutes of research on each guest beforehand, but what do I know?

I feel quite sorry for anyone who hasn't heard Idris Elba speak in his regular accent. Rawr.

[maddie965]

Yay, Wes is dead! Frank is alive! I love this show. #verylate

Edited November 20, 2016 by maddie965

[jvr]

@morgankobi Like I said... I would love another reason to call Wendy Williams an ignorant ass fool lol, I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't done any research. But I'm assuming she was playing to her audience with her "surprise"... but either way, people view actors as extensions of their characters a lot of the time. So when they don't even sound like that person it's off putting. 

Re: Idris Elba, I doubt it happens much anymore since he is a much bigger entity than in his Wire days. I don't watch interviews of actors much but I was recently surprised by Andrew Lincoln's (The Walking Dead) real accent.

[FiveByFive]

5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

This is slightly OT but he was on Wendy William's show back before the season started and she made a ridiculous fuss about his accent. It was like she couldn't parse hearing a young Black man speak with a British accent and she actually had the nerve to ask him to conduct the interview in his American accent instead of his natural voice. I hope they had warned him she was going to do that but if not he was quite charming about it. He actually pointed out his own uncertainty with certain words because he hadn't worked on them with his dialect coach yet.

I just watched the interview because I'd never seen it. She seemed to think his accent was fascinating and he did a little over half of the interview in it. They do pre-interviews on her show so they know what they can talk about and what stories she should bring up so it's likely he knew it was coming and was okay with it. Everything else she said to him was highly complimentary. 

She claimed she asked him to switch accents to "freak" the audience out. I do think it's jarring when you hear an actor on a TV series with an American accent then hear them with their natural one. If anything I think it was an example of how great of an actor he is. However, I would have been annoyed if she had of asked me to "stay" with a different voice than my natural one. He seemed to be in good spirits the entire time if not a bit nervous.

Which just brings me back to my original point: I like Alfred Enoch but Wes was so annoying. When he's not Wes he's actually very charming and he also has completely different mannerisms. I'm sure since he's part of the Shondaland family we'll see him again if he doesn't land something else after this season.

[Tiger]

9 hours ago, jvr said:

@morgankobi Like I said... I would love another reason to call Wendy Williams an ignorant ass fool lol, I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't done any research. But I'm assuming she was playing to her audience with her "surprise"... but either way, people view actors as extensions of their characters a lot of the time. So when they don't even sound like that person it's off putting. 

Re: Idris Elba, I doubt it happens much anymore since he is a much bigger entity than in his Wire days. I don't watch interviews of actors much but I was recently surprised by Andrew Lincoln's (The Walking Dead) real accent.

I was shocked when I heard Lennie James (Morgan on Walking Dead) speak with his natural British accent on that after show.  For some reason I knew Andrew Lincoln, Idris Elba, and Alfred Enoch had accents, but I was clueless about James'. 

But regardless, Williams plays to the lowest common denominator, and her past as a radio dj trying to out people is disgusting.  I have no idea why anyone give folks like Williams and Perez Hilton the time of day considering their disgusting and dangerous behavior of outing people.  

Anyway, to bring it back on-topic, to me it sounds like Jack Falahee has a great lakes accent in real life that Connor doesnt have on the show, and Viola seems to speak differently on this show versus real life and the other roles I have her seen in her. It's not a different accent but there's something in her vocal inflection that is different; Annalise seems to poiny her words more than Viola for example.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Tiger