S03.E06: Shade

[blugirlami21]

Quote

Oh, I'd say it does mean Iris is in the crosshairs.  Otherwise, why make a point of spelling it out at this time, right before the introduction of a super duper evol speed god?  I don't think CP is going anywhere, or anything like that, but now that Iris and Barry are on the same page, you know TPTB will want to break them up but it's really more like a ship stall at this stage since they are only just barely dating, so any reason they come up with to break them up to be a misguided decision and what is more classically a misguided reason for a hero to break up with his heroine than because he thinks the life he leads is too dangerous?  

So put Iris in mortal danger (and actually harm her) and then Barry can freak out and overcompensate by pushing her away.  Won't that be fun!  (Still more fun than hiding a secret child from your fiance but being fine with your worst enemy knowing)

The people behind Arrow and the Flash (and the rest) have a tendency to repeat story lines.  This is season three and in season three of Arrow, one date and then 19 episodes apart.  I'd say Iris will be in the crosshairs by the winter finale.  To be clear, all of this is just spec based on watching lots of tv for too many years.  

Hmmm, usually I would agree with you but we've already had two years of that.  I think they would really lose a lot of the Westallen fan base if they did that for an eighth time.  I was almost completely done after the Batty thing.  What a complete waste of time that was.  Arrow is just written so poorly sometimes that it's really hard for me to believe that it's the same people.  All of their relationships are messed up at this point which is why I rarely watch it anymore.  The reality of the situation is Iris will always be in danger because she's dating the flash or she will be married to the flash.  

The flashpoint situation with Barry kind of reminds me of Rick on The Walking Dead.  He's kind of damned no matter what he does at this point.  Flashpoint happened, the timeline will be forever changed.  And there's nothing that Barry can do about that.  If he tries to go back and fix it again he's a horrible, selfish person but if he does nothing he's still a horrible, selfish person.  I know we would all like to go back and prevent him from ever going back in the first place but that's not going to happen.  We, like the people on the show have to accept that this is how things are now.  I really miss the old Cisco but this Cisco doesn't seem to be as scared of his powers like the old one.  I'm sure that given time he will regain his fun spirit.  I just don't feel like any of the changes to the timeline are insurmountable or that Barry has to be punished every week for something that cannot be changed.  

[CabotCove]

4 hours ago, JapMo said:

They need to have some fun together.  They are joyless.  Take last night.  Why wasn't she sitting on his lap and the two of them making out instead of watching Wally?  If they are only going to give them 10 second scenes here and there if/until they hit the sheets or say I Do, have them all over each other like couples falling in love are.  Or doing silly things and wanting to always be with each other.  Get them the hell out of Star Labs.    

????

[ruby24]

I also think they should show them having fun more. Weirdly, they were a lot better about that in Season 1.

The show is pretty sexless overall though. There was that one episode that was all about them kissing in front of Joe and then two episodes in a row where they barely interact. I don't know if it's intentional, like maybe they think they can keep them together longer if for several episodes it's all but forgotten that they're a couple, but the balance is off somehow. It's uneven. If they're newly dating they really should be more, you know, into each other.

I wonder if the fault lies in the directing, to be honest. I kind of had this problem last season too, where the entire first half it was like Barry and Iris didn't even know each other. And then suddenly they bring it back big with their E2 selves, but then the balance is off again for a while before the end. They just don't emphasize enough little moments consistently, there's not enough stage direction in the scripts (the actors have admitted there's like, none).

Edited November 16, 2016 by ruby24

[Princess Lucky]

I definitely agree that Vibe will be evil, and I hope we get to see that/Cisco realizes it.

HR is funny I guess, but I miss Harry. We know nothing about HR, and he brings nothing to the table in terms of helping the team. But Tom C does look nice in his new outfits. Still, bring back Harry.

I love Caitlin, and I adore her friendship with Cisco. I agree she shouldn't have kept everyone in the dark, but I can also see her point of view (fear, uncertainty, a sense of loss of self). I liked Cisco's reassurances, even if I don't buy them (and neither does Caitlin. Can she really be helped?).

Barry is just the worst. They're trying to make him look better by association (with queen Iris) but yeah, no. But it is fun how he instantly becomes more likeable in the goofier moments (freaking out about HR's new face, being adorable with Iris). And yet he remains the worst, because he's screwed everything up, time and time again, and every week we see yet another thing he ruined. I will say, though, that can't be easy on him. And yet, he brought it on himself.

Iris, on the other hand, is the best. But she needs more to do. Though punching Wally in the face was a pretty great start.

I liked this episode, and Savitar was pretty awesome. This season has issues, but I like the pace, for the most part. And I'm excited for more Killer Frost.

[stlbf]

3 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

At least they're being consistent. These guys still don't differentiate between Eobard Thawne wearing Harrison Wells' face and Earth 1 Harrison Wells. As far as they're concerned Harrison Wells is evil and all Wells are by default shady until proven otherwise, which is just lazy. The E1 HW we saw before he and his fiance were murdered by all accounts was a great guy and scientist. It's bad enough that he will wrongly go down in history as a sociopathic evil genius killer but even the people who know the truth continue to refer to Eobard's victim as evil. 

The difference there being that they knew Eobard as HW for months, if not years. They never met or know the real Wells. It is just really simple to just say evil Wells. Besides, outside of the team and Eobard, who else would believe it? Plus, I don't think that we have ever met anyone who knew the real Wells.

Caitlin met E2's Killer Frost. She knows that they have fairly different childhoods. Ronnie died a hero on E1 and on E2, he was a villain. Revibe was most assuredly a villain. We don't see Cisco and Barry freaking out over Joe being an alcoholic. Which he kind of was in E2.

This whole plot line is just stupid. They all should know better. If Caitlin really was feeling a massive morality swing, then her worry would make sense. But her just developing powers doesn't warrant everyone freaking out that Killer Frost is back.

[Sakura12]

Again I'll say they should just be using Killer Frost's comic story instead of going with just because. In the comics she became like a a vampiric being who craved heat. She needed the heat energy from others to keep her own body temperature down. Then it would make sense why she fears her powers or what she could become and why she'd keep that from her friends. But Flash's version of Killer Frost was just evil with freezing powers, they never gave her a reason to be evil and now this version of Killer Frost seems to be headed in that same direction. 

I still think they should do Iris' comic story as well. They wasted her mother on bringing in yet another male hero and speedster. 

[TobinAlbers]

2 hours ago, stlbf said:

Plus, I don't think that we have ever met anyone who knew the real Wells.

Dr. Tina McGee did know original Wells as she noted to the team in S1 how he went from a good friend/colleague that she admired to a cold version of himself. She attributed it to his losing his fiancé in the car accident and his paralysis. 

[Argenta]

15 hours ago, Richness said:

HR is getting on every last one of my nerves. I just want to shove those drumsticks in various body orifices. 

I beg you to reconsider. This is HR we're talking about; he'd probably laugh uproariously and say "That was cool!" or something.

[immortalfrieza]

10 hours ago, mrspidey said:

While I get that having speedsters overrepresented in Flash's rogue AND sidekick gallery feels kinda boring, that's just keeping it close to the source material. There's a ton of speedsters in the comics too, so this is nothing out of the ordinary. 

Yeah. "Flash is the Fastest Man Alive!" is and has always been more of a moniker than anything actually true. All versions of Flash call themselves and are called The Fastest Man Alive all the time despite the existence of speedsters who are faster than Flash all over the place, at least until the awful writers make Flash's speed reach absurd story breaker levels because they can't come up with anything decent to do with him otherwise.

Honestly? I thought they were doing pretty good with this show to keep Barry's typical speed down to a more reasonable level than the comics version that allowed nonspeedsters to seem like they actually threaten him, and bringing up metas with powers that simple speed wasn't enough to beat, which is why I don't think they really need a speedster to be the Big Bad of every season, all they really need to do cap Barry's speed permanently and keep presenting threats that can beat him at that speed. I was actually hoping that if he happens to come across a speedster that's faster he'd USE HIS HEAD to beat them instead of just becoming faster like they've been having him do with the last speedsters and are likely going to have him do here... again.

7 hours ago, JapMo said:

They need to have some fun together.  They are joyless.  Take last night.  Why wasn't she sitting on his lap and the two of them making out instead of watching Wally?  If they are only going to give them 10 second scenes here and there if/until they hit the sheets or say I Do, have them all over each other like couples falling in love are.  Or doing silly things and wanting to always be with each other.  Get them the hell out of Star Labs.    

If Barry and Iris decided to start making out while their brother was being scouted by a superpowered maniac that was torturing him I would lose ALL respect I have for both characters and the writers as it would be a complete betrayal of both of their characters. By all indications  Barry and Iris are NOT the kind of people who would pull crap like that, nor are either of them the flirty lovey dovey all over each other types either. As much as fiction might have made people think otherwise a lot of people in a relationship rarely act like they are barely stopping themselves from jumping each other's bones at every given moment, especially when they've just gotten started with the relationship. I enjoy that the writers are allowing Iris and Barry's relationship to develop more realistically than most couples on TV and actually using some subtlety .
 

4 hours ago, maxineofarc said:

 

With the whole flashpoint situation, I feel like everything I know about these characters I've gotten to like (or in some cases tolerate) over two seasons is totally in question. What happened that Cisco/Caitlin are so afraid? No idea! Whatever character development they've had has been effectively offscreen as these versions didn't exist for the viewers until Barry picked a timeline to go with, so I have no idea if I should still be invested in these people or not.

This whole "Flashpoint" storyline was just an excuse for the writers to be able to break what has already been established so they can just write whatever they want, just like every time any work gets a reboot or retcon. Reboots and retcons like Flashpoint are just lazy writing writers use to avoid having to acknowledge continuity in their plots.

 

Cisco's vision has all the makings of a future vision that turns out not to mean what the viewer thinks it means, especially since it didn't have some clock or words or whatever to show the actual context for when and where it's happening like the previous future visions did. I hope neither of the two are actually evil and get killed off or made permanent bad guys as a result of this, because that would be a waste of two characters that may be somewhat different from the ones we know and love but are still close enough that I wouldn't want to see either of them gone.

Edited November 17, 2016 by immortalfrieza

[catrice2]

It is  like they read boards and blogs and whatever viewers don't like, that's what we get. Everyone says they are tired of speedsters and we get YES...MORE SPEEDSTERS! 

Tired of Barry Iris drama and we get more! 

Sick of Wells?  Let's get another one...it is tiring 

[DearEvette]

I liked this episode feels like we are turning a corner a little bit.  Caitlin's secret is out, tho why they immediately jump to the "I am going to turn eeevil" conclusion is beyond me.  And I think the development with her is 1000% improvement over last season with Jay.

I thought the scene with Barry and Iris talking was very well done. I really liked how she pointed out that she does feel like the odd man out and doubts her contributions because she has no meta-powers ans isn't a scientist.  I felt like a bit of meta commentary on iris' place in the scheme of things since writing does seem to struggle with how to make non-powered characters in shows like this feel like they are really useful and valuable. And the line "there is no Flash without Iris West" also feels like a bit of meta commentary.

I did wonder why nobody thought to just rip the damn mask off of Alchemy?  I swear tv people really love to monologue when they should be pulling off masks!!

[Cthulhudrew]

Something I found a bit confusing. While talking to Joe, Iris, et al, Barry says that the reason he didn't tell them about Wally earlier was because they didn't want to know about their lives before. My recollection of that conversation from episode (2? 1?) was that they didn't want to know about their pre-Flashpoint lives, but he says explicitly here that it was because they didn't want to know about their Flashpoint lives. Which is it? Was it both?

[stlbf]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Again I'll say they should just be using Killer Frost's comic story instead of going with just because. In the comics she became like a a vampiric being who craved heat. She needed the heat energy from others to keep her own body temperature down. Then it would make sense why she fears her powers or what she could become and why she'd keep that from her friends. But Flash's version of Killer Frost was just evil with freezing powers, they never gave her a reason to be evil and now this version of Killer Frost seems to be headed in that same direction. 

At least that would give Caitlin a real reason to be so terrified at her powers. She can do serious damage to property and life. Which was why they were always on Barry and then Cisco to take control of their powers and learn how to handle them.

E2 Killer Frost just seemed like a cold and angry woman. The only thing she wanted was power, money and maybe Ronnie. She wanted her way and didn't care if people got hurt. Caitlin hasn't show that personality. 

2 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Dr. Tina McGee did know original Wells as she noted to the team in S1 how he went from a good friend/colleague that she admired to a cold version of himself. She attributed it to his losing his fiancé in the car accident and his paralysis. 

Soooooo, one person, that we've gotten to see one or two times a season. It sucks that the real Well's memory is tarnished, but it isn't truly life affecting. Maybe if Wells had a close family that was destroyed thanks to Eobard's murdering of Wells, it would be worth it. But I don't think that we have ever heard about Wells having any real family. 

 

15 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Something I found a bit confusing. While talking to Joe, Iris, et al, Barry says that the reason he didn't tell them about Wally earlier was because they didn't want to know about their lives before. My recollection of that conversation from episode (2? 1?) was that they didn't want to know about their pre-Flashpoint lives, but he says explicitly here that it was because they didn't want to know about their Flashpoint lives. Which is it? Was it both?

Pretty sure the gang said that they didn't want to know what happened in their old lives. So no Kid Flash, no Dante being alive, no drunk Joe, etc. That past isn't theirs now.

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Again I'll say they should just be using Killer Frost's comic story instead of going with just because. In the comics she became like a a vampiric being who craved heat. She needed the heat energy from others to keep her own body temperature down. Then it would make sense why she fears her powers or what she could become and why she'd keep that from her friends. But Flash's version of Killer Frost was just evil with freezing powers, they never gave her a reason to be evil and now this version of Killer Frost seems to be headed in that same direction. 

I still think they should do Iris' comic story as well. They wasted her mother on bringing in yet another male hero and speedster. 

That actually is why show Killer Frost became a killer.  She needs to draw heat energy from others in order to survive.  Caitlin knows this, and that's why she's afraid of her own developing powers.  She doesn't want to end up hurting and killing innocent people just to survive, particularly not those who are closest to her.

And if they went with Iris's comic story, they'd have her be Joe's adopted daughter who is actually from the 30th Century and was sent back to our era by her biological parents when she was a baby in order to save her life.

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, legaleagle53 said:

That actually is why show Killer Frost became a killer.  She needs to draw heat energy from others in order to survive.  Caitlin knows this, and that's why she's afraid of her own developing powers.  She doesn't want to end up hurting and killing innocent people just to survive, particularly not those who are closest to her.

And if they went with Iris's comic story, they'd have her be Joe's adopted daughter who is actually from the 30th Century and was sent back to our era by her biological parents when she was a baby in order to save her life.

That was never explained on the show. We never saw E2 Killer Frost kill because she needed to. She was just evil because they wanted her to be. 

They could've tweaked Iris' story and made her mother from the future and that's why she left. She did it to save Iris.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

While Barry sure loves to embellish the fact that being the fastest man alive makes him THE FLASH.... maybe he should consider re-wording that opening monologue to 'least-fastest man alive, whenever other speedsters are present in the storyline and/or episode'.

[legaleagle53]

20 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

While Barry sure loves to embellish the fact that being the fastest man alive makes him THE FLASH.... maybe he should consider re-wording that opening monologue to 'least-fastest man alive, whenever other speedsters are present in the storyline and/or episode'.

Especially since he regularly gets his ass kicked by them.  Seriously, he's a man who can run fast enough to travel through time, but he can't dodge a freaking laser, which only moves at the speed of light?

[catrice2]

I agree, I would not have wanted Barry and Iris making out during the Wally Watch, but how much better would that scene have been if he was touching her face and looking into her eyes when he said there was no Flash without Iris....you know, there is no me without you?    If they really thought Alchemy was after Wally wouldn't they anticipate that he would try to get everyone out of STAR Labs? 

I agree with the whole "I am the fastest," when every season he is whining over not being as fast as someone and not knowing if he can beat them.

I could care less about Julian and HR. Flash and Arrow made the same mistake, they broke up a winning formula and winning team by adding too many people and focusing too much on one "big bad."  Arrow was more fun when they were chasing the baddie of the week.

 

Iris should have known opening the door was he worst thing that could happen.  I was so disappointed in her being sad about her "limited" contributions...ok, well stop hanging around STAR Labs and go do something! 

Surely there was something they could have whipped up to protect Wally...and why wouldn't Caitlin and/or "Vibe" go with Barry for backup? 

I also agree  I am sick of Star Labs...they really need to spend more time outside the lab. Why does the CW ruin every show?  Now James is the character they are ruining on Supergirl, I can't even start on the Arrow disappointments, and I just never started watching Legends to get disappointed. I rarely watch Flash live. I DVR so I can fast forward and complain. 

[DigitalCount]

Man, I was all ready to come on here and shriek "IT'S CECILE!" but then I saw that I'd been beaten to it, so nuts to that. I mean, given that they're calling this person "Doctor" it reminds me of the old riddle about the doctor who can't operate on the injured boy because "he's my son." Oddly enough, the biggest thing for me was that Dr. Alchemy does not have an English accent. I buy that a voice modulator would change the pitch and tone, but the inflections and accenting should remain. Furthermore, Julian has already explained why Dr. Alchemy's modus operandi would be despicable to him; he's got an inferiority complex about powers, so why would he want to get more people to have them? And they've been careful with angles and the incredibly loose robes that there could be anyone under there and it wouldn't be a cheat from that standpoint.

I have to say I laughed at the fact that another speedster is the villain here. On the one hand, Barry should be able to beat anyone else unless they can slow him down, but on the other Dr. Alchemy was over here hitting him with Eldritch Blast like five or six times when he should be at disadvantage on every attack roll. For a speedster, Barry sure stands in one spot waiting to get hit pretty often. In a combat situation against a non-speedster he should pretty much always be running around at ludicrous speed. I was actually sitting here yelling "hello? Speed Force?!"

I'm glad Tom Cavanaugh is having fun playing HR, because Joe and I were right there in the same boat. I mean, HR knows they were on a date-ish activity, right? It seems kind of rude to insert your way in like that even if you're all there as friends. Read the room, bro.

While I sympathize with Caitlin deciding when to share with her people, it seems odd that a) she'd tell her mother before she'd try to even partially explain it to her friends, who actually love her, and b) she wouldn't offer to help against Shade when the whole idea was to slow down his molecules and she's apparently more powerful than the Cold Gun. Setting aside the stupidity of a person producing cold energy colder than absolute zero, shouldn't she have been able to contain this guy in an instant?

[ruby24]

They really do spend WAY too much time in Star Labs. I am so sick of looking at that grey, drab set. Where the hell has Jitters been this season?

[Trini]

More comments later, but I hated the way Cisco forced Caitlin to 'out' herself. It seemed out of character for Cisco, and they could have found another way to reveal her powers to the team. (Using her powers to stop Shade, for instance.(which they kinda set up earlier)) And I really hated that she went and apologized to Cisco when she was completely justified in being upset.

And it makes sense to me that The Flash has speedster villains; in general, the Flash is ridiculously overpowered. Technically, most situations/villains shouldn't be a problem for him; only another speedster could be a real threat/challenge. (Still pissed that they killed off the Turtle -- one of the only metas that could nullify his powers.)

[immortalfrieza]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

And it makes sense to me that The Flash has speedster villains; in general, the Flash is ridiculously overpowered. Technically, most situations/villains shouldn't be a problem for him; only another speedster could be a real threat/challenge. (Still pissed that they killed off the Turtle -- one of the only metas that could nullify his powers.)

Yep. The issue is that The Flash Vs. anybody who isn't a speedster is a fight that would last less than 2 seconds if the writers didn't arbitrarily slow Barry down and make him an idiot constantly in order for those people to be able to even challenge him, all because they made him way too fast in the first place for it to be otherwise and are only making him faster. I mean, for example in this episode Barry should have had Alchemy and his goons tied up on the floor ready for the police to cart them off before Wally even walked up to him much less before he could raise his arm and fire those blasts at Barry, and the fact that he should have been able to do this is likely the reason they brought in that new speedster in the first place. This is true of anything The Flash has ever been in, even this show where even reaching Mach 1 speeds requires a good amount of running time for him to be able to do.

In fact, I've noticed it's pretty common of DC superheroes (like Flash himself, Superman, Green Lantern etc.) to be so incredibly overpowered that the only way the writers can actually threaten them is to either depower them, make them idiots, throw in some ridiculous weaknesses, or a combination of these for there to actually be a plot because the villains they put them up against aren't a real match for them as is. Well, that, and things like dozens of superheroes running around means one starts to realizes things like how say Superman could clean up Gotham in about a month, if that, if he was actually allowed to do so but then there wouldn't be a need for Batman. This is the reason I generally like Marvel superheroes better, because however powerful any of them may be the threats Marvel heroes come across are powerful enough to challenge them at their full ability and just have them work with what they have instead of just jacking them up and throwing in more abilities when that's not enough.

Edited November 17, 2016 by immortalfrieza

[Grace19]

11 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

If Barry and Iris decided to start making out while their brother was being scouted by a superpowered maniac that was torturing him I would lose ALL respect I have for both characters and the writers as it would be a complete betrayal of both of their characters. By all indications  Barry and Iris are NOT the kind of people who would pull crap like that, nor are either of them the flirty lovey dovey all over each other types either. As much as fiction might have made people think otherwise a lot of people in a relationship rarely act like they are barely stopping themselves from jumping each other's bones at every given moment, especially when they've just gotten started with the relationship. I enjoy that the writers are allowing Iris and Barry's relationship to develop more realistically than most couples on TV and actually using some subtlety .

This. The writers have made some mistakes with Barry/Iris, but they've written them so well this season. They are not over the top, they come across very realistic to me. Some have complained about their kisses, but the situation surrounding each kiss made sense to me. Standing on the grave of Barry's mother was not the place for heavy make out,  
 

[Grace19]

19 hours ago, RedVitC said:

I have to defend Wally on this point. Yes, they said they didn't want to know about their FP lives, but the minute Barry found out that Alchemy was giving back people from FP their powers, going after them one by one, he should have told Wally. It was only a matter of time before Alchemy would go after Wally (especially since he went after The Rival, Wally's main enemy in FP). If Barry had told them they'd have had more time to come up with and execute a plan instead of this last ditch plan they went with now.

Wanting to help people in the way you feel you were meant to is not the same as wanting to be called a hero. Wanting to be a hero is not the same as wanting to be called a hero (I missed the first few minutes, so maybe I missed something he said?). Wally has always felt that void, that need, as if there was something missing. I think that he was also Kid Flash in the original timeline (the real original timeline, the one Eobard changed to the timeline we've come to know) and has always felt somehow that that speed was missing. If the Speedforce is really something that transcends time itself, I think it makes sense that you feel the loss of it even in another timeline.

I agree and its no surprise that Wally has always been the guy in love with speed, even before he knew Barry was the flash. It makes sense for him to crave that speed especially when Jessi who was hit by the particle accelerator with him has super speed, to top it off, he kept getting these dreams of him as kid flash.
 

[maxineofarc]

2 hours ago, Grace19 said:

This. The writers have made some mistakes with Barry/Iris, but they've written them so well this season. They are not over the top, they come across very realistic to me. Some have complained about their kisses, but the situation surrounding each kiss made sense to me. Standing on the grave of Barry's mother was not the place for heavy make out,  
 

I appreciate this viewpoint, but I'm afraid I still think Barry and Iris have all the chemistry of a pile of wet leaves.

[Cthulhudrew]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

More comments later, but I hated the way Cisco forced Caitlin to 'out' herself. It seemed out of character for Cisco, and they could have found another way to reveal her powers to the team.

Particularly out of character considering how he was hiding his own powers for so long and how Harry outed him.

[BkWurm1]

19 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

Hmmm, usually I would agree with you but we've already had two years of that.  I think they would really lose a lot of the Westallen fan base if they did that for an eighth time.  I was almost completely done after the Batty thing.  What a complete waste of time that was.  Arrow is just written so poorly sometimes that it's really hard for me to believe that it's the same people.  All of their relationships are messed up at this point which is why I rarely watch it anymore.  The reality of the situation is Iris will always be in danger because she's dating the flash or she will be married to the flash.  

 

Thing that you have to remember is while Arrow and The Flash have different writers that execute the scripts, all the DC shows get their basic seasonal outlines from the same guys.  Kriesberg, Guggenhiem, and Berlanti sit around and decide the major moments of each show and all the characters  journey's for the season before the script ever get written. That's why the same patterns repeat.  And also remember how much praise Arrow got at the end of its second season. 

 

I wish us all lots of luck.

[Lady Calypso]

12 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

While Barry sure loves to embellish the fact that being the fastest man alive makes him THE FLASH.... maybe he should consider re-wording that opening monologue to 'least-fastest man alive, whenever other speedsters are present in the storyline and/or episode'.

Maybe just reword it to "one of the fastest men alive". 

 

20 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Particularly out of character considering how he was hiding his own powers for so long and how Harry outed him.

It's really dumb, but New Cisco feels off because he's not our Cisco of the last two seasons. Not really, anyway

Edited November 17, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[Cthulhudrew]

22 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's really dumb, but New Cisco feels off because he's not our Cisco of the last two seasons. Not really, anyway

Agreed. It's something that still really bugs me, even if the show creators don't seem to feel the same way. These aren't the same characters we've gotten to know and love (or hate) since we've been watching, even if the actors are the same and are largely performing the same way they always have, and even if the writers (and Barry) choose to gloss it over. The whole Flashpoint idea, to me, is still kind of a big middle finger to the audience that has been with the show since season 1.

[ruby24]

I think the show is too sexless, and I'd like to see Barry and Iris (and for that matter everyone else) act more like full-blooded adults. Even on Supergirl they are more frank about everything, despite the light tone and the fact that Kara's an adorable puppy herself.

[Princess Lucky]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Agreed. It's something that still really bugs me, even if the show creators don't seem to feel the same way. These aren't the same characters we've gotten to know and love (or hate) since we've been watching, even if the actors are the same and are largely performing the same way they always have, and even if the writers (and Barry) choose to gloss it over. The whole Flashpoint idea, to me, is still kind of a big middle finger to the audience that has been with the show since season 1.

I'm reading this and getting Fringe flashbacks. That show, in my opinion, never recovered after "resetting" the storyline, even with certain characters retaining their memories (I'm trying not to spoil anything). There's really no way around it, these are not the same characters we know and love. How can we see Caitlin's struggle about her powers and turning evil, when this Caitlin has had different life experiences than the one we know? And the Flashpoint Caitlin? How can we look at this Cisco, who's suffered a tragic loss, and think he's the same person as Original Cisco? They're not. Even Joe or Wally are different.

It's always daring to do something like this (and Fringe produced some of its best episodes after introducing a parallel world) but the trick is in resolving the story appropriately. Almost always, that's where the writers fail. Something is lost (which reminds me of Lost, which also attempted something like this, and also failed) and you're left with different versions of the characters you love(d).

These are not the same people. The fact Barry pretends they are, and the fact he's dating this Iris (who is not the same Iris he grew up with) and the fact he sees this Joe as his father figure, that doesn't mean they're not changed. And yet the show totally glosses over that. I'm not sure there's a better way to end a storyline like this, other than returning to the original timeline (which dramatically would be a step back), but I am sure this is not a good way.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Flash Examines The Shade Of It All

But sadly, not in the Latrice Royale way.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Thing that you have to remember is while Arrow and The Flash have different writers that execute the scripts, all the DC shows get their basic seasonal outlines from the same guys.  Kriesberg, Guggenhiem, and Berlanti sit around and decide the major moments of each show and all the characters  journey's for the season before the script ever get written. That's why the same patterns repeat.  And also remember how much praise Arrow got at the end of its second season.

They probably talk with him when things effect the other shows, but I'm so glad Guggenheim isn't in charge of Flash.

If anything, I think Barry would try and keep Iris as close as possible so he can protect her. I could see them getting separated, but I don't think they'll break up as a couple.

[Argenta]

6 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Flash Examines The Shade Of It All

But sadly, not in the Latrice Royale way.

I notice that the post refers to the new evil speedster as 'Godspeed'.  Didn't he call himself 'Savitar, god of speed'? Or are they the same? I don't read the comics but I understood that these were two different characters?

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Argenta said:

I notice that the post refers to the new evil speedster as 'Godspeed'.  Didn't he call himself 'Savitar, god of speed'? Or are they the same? I don't read the comics but I understood that these were two different characters?

Meant to note that (who should I send an email to?) -- the recap is wrong. It's Savitar; Godspeed is in the Flash:Rebirth comics.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

They probably talk with him when things effect the other shows, but I'm so glad Guggenheim isn't in charge of Flash.

 

I'm afraid they do way more than that.  It's been in interviews.  Toward the end of the current season they all brainstorm together and come up with story lines for all the shows.  Nothing is set in stone or every detail worked out, but it's not merely coordinating separate shows.      

[Trini]

Yes, the shows are all set in the same universe and intersect with each other, so they would have discussions with each other; but Guggenheim's clearly not involved enough with Flash to have a credit. (And I have a feeling he isn't interested.)

[Spaceman Spiff]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:07 AM, blugirlami21 said:

This episode really annoyed me.  Do they want me to dislike Wally?  He was such a brat in this episode.  We understand that you want to have powers Wally.  We get it.  What I don't understand is your inability to accept that we don't always get what we want in life.  And you throwing a tantrum about it week after week does you no favors.  I wish that they would turn down the volume on that aspect of your character.  You jumping in front of people's cars (which could have seriously injured someone) and calling Barry a liar does not help your case.

I don't care that Cisco outed Caitlin.  She was being stupid, same way she has been for the last couple of months.  Her solution was also stupid.  Running away from the only people who can help you is not a solution.  You obviously have a hard time controlling your powers right now with help from your friends.  What's going to happen a couple of months down the road?  You will just become some other cities' problem.

Why is the fact that their lives were different in flashpoint a revelation at this point???  Also the fact that Barry created it shouldn't be one either.  Did they forget that he told them all this at the beginning of the season?

I don' t think that Barry is or will ever be blase about creating the flashpoint timeline.  He feels awful about it every time they find another husk, every time a new difference is discovered hence the hand wringing and indecision over how to fix it.  It's ultimately a situation that can't be fixed.  I was surprised and a little disappointed that Iris and Joe didn't pick up on that.  Speaking of Iris, I feel like her sudden concern over her importance in Barry's life was out of left field.  The show has shown time and time again how important Iris is to Barry and the flash.  I don't however think that means she's in any more danger than she would be normally.

I too am over the multiple speedster every season thing.  Are there no other kinds of metahumans that can challenge Barry?  It makes Barry seem ordinary which is unfortunate.  Him saying that he is the fastest man alive every week looks more and more like a bold faced lie every time the newest speedster is introduced and they are almost always faster than he is.

I have not cared one bit for this version of Wally West at all. The character is useless and whines too much. This show is suffering from character bloat (as are other CW superhero shows).

I truly wish that when Wally finally gets his powers they are like Ethan's from Sky High.

[Grace19]

On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 3:32 PM, maxineofarc said:

I appreciate this viewpoint, but I'm afraid I still think Barry and Iris have all the chemistry of a pile of wet leaves

It's okay, chemistry is subjective, it will always be different to different people.

This is why I think its counter productive for writers to listen to viewers when it comes to which couple they should develop in a show, because, even when some vocal fan base cry chemistry/no chemistry, they can never satisfy everyone. they should just write for the pair they like and want to pursue and try their best to do it justice, so that even people that don't like the pairing can at least understand them.
 

[Kromm]

Godspeed?

Okay, there's a problem when they feel they have to recycle new characters/plotlines which ONLY APPEARED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE COMICS within the past 6 months.

I won't spoil anything about the Comics version of Godspeed. It's just enough for the non-comics readers to know that it's a total shit move to migrate over a villain which the comics writers haven't even fully developed.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Kromm said:

Godspeed?

Okay, there's a problem when they feel they have to recycle new characters/plotlines which ONLY APPEARED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE COMICS within the past 6 months.

I won't spoil anything about the Comics version of Godspeed. It's just enough for the non-comics readers to know that it's a total shit move to migrate over a villain which the comics writers haven't even fully developed.

It's a mistake. I don't know why the recapper put 'Godspeed', but the villain here is Savitar.

[Aeryn13]

Hm, I thought the way Caitlin`s secret came out was a bit random and anticlimactic. I got excited when Barry followed her to have their talk because it still bugs while I like Barry and he never had bad intentions, it still bugs me how easily he skated on the whole Flashpoint thing. That was a massive violation of everyone and everything and his circle of friends reacted by... being kinda miffed for two seconds and then collectively forgiving him. That was simply too little to be dramatically satisfying IMO.

Caitlin was screwed over the most by the timeline change so I expected the scene between them to have more gravitas. I expected Barry to look at lot more horrified. Caitlin to be more betrayed. There were shades of it in their scenes but it was very underwritten. 

While Wally was brattish here when he told Joe that Joe was okay with Barry screwing up over and over again, well sorry, but he`s got a point. I don`t need or want to see everyone ganging up on Barry but everyone who calls him out on things kinda has a point now. 

[KirkB]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Caitlin was screwed over the most by the timeline change so I expected the scene between them to have more gravitas. I expected Barry to look at lot more horrified. Caitlin to be more betrayed. There were shades of it in their scenes but it was very underwritten. 

While I agree Caitlin got screwed over by Flashpoint, I think Dante Ramon and Sara Diggle got it worse. He's dead and she no longer exists.

[Potanical Pardon]

Sure, why not? Give Barry another Wally villain. And a Jay villain.

It's fine in the comics with all the numerous speedsters because they all have distinct personalities. It's boring as hell on the show because they're all the same with Reverse Flash being a notch above only because the show says so. This show needs to grasp how the speedsters don't become redundant and unoriginal. For the villain speedsters they simply need motives that aren't the same as a VOTW and integrated as far as relationships go with The Flash's everyday everything instead of popping in and out to deliver a monologue and randomly terrorize the public.

On 11/16/2016 at 2:36 AM, BkWurm1 said:

And honestly, I'm really not digging ANOTHER evil speedster.  I was so confused too at first over what was going on.  Had to rewatch the whole fight before I was sure Alchemy had not just turned into to the God of Speed. 

No! There actually is a "Godspeed" speedster character. Don't remind the writers there's still yet another unused one available!

Edited November 19, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[Aeryn13]

Quote

While I agree Caitlin got screwed over by Flashpoint, I think Dante Ramon and Sara Diggle got it worse. He's dead and she no longer exists.

I just meant the most screwed over out of Barry`s inner circle, not the most screwed in general. Because I agree the people who died/were erased top this list.   

[waving feather]

Cisco and Caitlin continue to be the best part of the show. They have the best friendship on the show and I hope whatever happens next don't mess with that too much.

[benteen]

I wanted to punch Joe when he said that he didn’t trust Wally with the speed powers like he did Barry.  Are you ****ing kidding me?  What has Barry done with his powers to make you trust him, other than causing every threat that Central City has faced over the past two years because of the decisions he makes with his speed?  Barry’s enablers are just as dumb as he is and that’s pretty damn dumb.

While I don’t like people outing other people’s secrets, I totally support Cisco doing it.  The secret-keeping between them is ridiculous after all they’ve gone through together.

Wally was annoying and stupid in this.

Another so-so episode in an unimpressive season.  I admit that HR is growing on me though.

[waving feather]

Just when I'm getting used to the previous Harrison Wells, they introduce this new guy. Sigh, this show. They are lucky the actor playing Wells is good. 

I support Cisco outing Caitlin's secret as well. She has kept this secret for far too long and it's not getting better. They need every help they can get. Good guess that Vibe may be the bad one in the equation, which would be such an interesting story line because Cisco is my favourite.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

And honestly, I'm really not digging ANOTHER evil speedster.  I was so confused too at first over what was going on.  Had to rewatch the whole fight before I was sure Alchemy had not just turned into to the God of Speed. 

Quote

No! There actually is a "Godspeed" speedster character. Don't remind the writers there's still yet another unused one available!

But that is what Salvitar (or whatever his name was) called himself.  "God of Speed"

[benteen]

8 hours ago, waving feather said:

Just when I'm getting used to the previous Harrison Wells, they introduce this new guy. Sigh, this show. They are lucky the actor playing Wells is good. 

I support Cisco outing Caitlin's secret as well. She has kept this secret for far too long and it's not getting better. They need every help they can get. Good guess that Vibe may be the bad one in the equation, which would be such an interesting story line because Cisco is my favourite.

Yes.  They constantly  tell one another that they need to trust each other but then keep secrets from one another.  It's ridiculous.

The Cisco and Caitlin friendship was the highlight of this episode, with HR in second.