S07.E04: Service

[Nowhere]

@J----av my opinion is that Carl could have shot Negan in that room, Rick could have taken out the other guy, and they wouldn't be in this position right now. I think they could have stood guard at the gate like they've been doing every season until now for some reason and taken out Negan and all his men as they approached the gate. They had big enough weapons to do that. I don't see Negan as having a lot of men. I think his men are under his thumb and as soon as they're free of him they'll scatter. I don't see them trying to take revenge because I don't think they care about Negan. They just feel threatened by him. Unless there's some sort of mass Stockholm syndrome and they actually do care about the guy. Maybe they love him. If not I think they'd be happy to be free of him.

[J----av]

1 minute ago, Nowhere said:

@J----av my opinion is that Carl could have shot Negan in that room, Rick could have taken out the other guy, and they wouldn't be in this position right now. I think they could have stood guard at the gate like they've been doing every season until now for some reason and taken out Negan and all his men as they approached the gate. They had big enough weapons to do that. I don't see Negan as having a lot of men. I think his men are under his thumb and as soon as they're free of him they'll scatter. I don't see them trying to take revenge because I don't think they care about Negan. They just feel threatened by him. Unless there's some sort of mass Stockholm syndrome and they actually do care about the guy. Maybe they love him. If not I think they'd be happy to be free of him.

  Negan had like 60 armed men (with more back at his place) and some big ass trucks to run the gate down with. He also has Ricks BFF hostage. Rick has only 1 RPG shot left i believe and what, 30 people? Many children and people that are not good at fighting. Best Rick could hope for is shooting a truck with his last RPG shot (risking his BFF getting killed) and then taking out a few more of them before Negan and his crew surround the place, scale the walls and take everyone out. Fighting back right now would certainly get them all killed . Out manned out gunned and Rick probably would never shoot an RPG at them with Daryl with them.

 And we have seen the "Rick fights back and kicks their asses" story a million times already. I kinda like that he is FINALLY going up against a bigger tougher group 

[ganesh]

To be fair, Negan does show up unexpected, so it would be hard to prepare an organized assault. 

I think a more surgical approach would be more successful. 

[Nowhere]

26 minutes ago, J----av said:

  Negan had like 60 armed men (with more back at his place) and some big ass trucks to run the gate down with. He also has Ricks BFF hostage. Rick has only 1 RPG shot left i believe and what, 30 people? Many children and people that are not good at fighting. Best Rick could hope for is shooting a truck with his last RPG shot (risking his BFF getting killed) and then taking out a few more of them before Negan and his crew surround the place, scale the walls and take everyone out. Fighting back right now would certainly get them all killed . Out manned out gunned and Rick probably would never shoot an RPG at them with Daryl with them.

 And we have seen the "Rick fights back and kicks their asses" story a million times already. I kinda like that he is FINALLY going up against a bigger tougher group 

Touché on Daryl being held hostage. If that weren't the case though they could have sniped Negan and then taken out the truck. My theory is that the other men back at his place wouldn't have cared enough to take revenge right away if at all. They would at least have to gather their thoughts now that their commander in chief was dead, giving Rick time to make further plans. Rick had enough weapons to have armed everyone he had in Alexandria and I didn't think Negan had sixty men with him. Didn't look like it to me. Ricks people have skill too, although apparently michonne can't shoot accurately. Seems like Negan's men are just a bunch of weak minded followers. As long as they have Negan they're tough guys, but as soon as Negan is gone, what?

26 minutes ago, ganesh said:

To be fair, Negan does show up unexpected, so it would be hard to prepare an organized assault. 

I think a more surgical approach would be more successful. 

Old Rick would have come back and immediately prepared his people for war. It's not something they haven't done before. The fact that they have that gate and platform, not to mention a few other sneaky places to hold sniper positions, gives them somewhat of an advantage. They've done this so many times before. Im just saying, cut off the head of the snake and they're left with a bunch of creepers caressing little girls over balloons. These don't seem like the brightest bulbs.

[blackwing]

I honestly don't know if I can keep going.  I find nothing enjoyable about the direction the show is going.  I thought I hated the Governor.  Guess I didn't know the meaning of the word "hate".  When it all comes down to it, Negan is a bully for no other good reason than he has the power right now.   Not sure why TPTB think that watching a bully prattle on incessantly is something that viewers would find enjoyable.  Are we supposed to find him over-the-top entertaining?  Is it fun to watch him call Olivia "the fat girl" and then menacingly reduce her to tears?  And his lieutenant Dwight is just as much of a bully to Spencer and Rosita?   Every single one of his crew deserves to die horribly.

I have never spent so much time fast forwarding through Walking Dead episodes before.  Sad.   This used to be a show about a resilient group of survivors doing their best to survive against the walkers.  I get that the show has evolved, and now it's about the humans surviving against each other, but it's no longer fun.  

[millennium]

1 hour ago, J----av said:

  Negan had like 60 armed men (with more back at his place) and some big ass trucks to run the gate down with. He also has Ricks BFF hostage. Rick has only 1 RPG shot left i believe and what, 30 people? Many children and people that are not good at fighting. Best Rick could hope for is shooting a truck with his last RPG shot (risking his BFF getting killed) and then taking out a few more of them before Negan and his crew surround the place, scale the walls and take everyone out. Fighting back right now would certainly get them all killed . Out manned out gunned and Rick probably would never shoot an RPG at them with Daryl with them.

When Dorothy melted the Wicked Witch, none of the soldiers retaliated against her.   They were kinda relieved as I recall.   Maybe Negan's men would be relieved too.   Finally, a moment of silence.   Picture them meekly handing Lucille to Rick and saying, "Yes, and take it with you."

[morgankobi]

2 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I'm not even thinking that hard on this.

ZoloftBlob is much scarier than Negan.    

I don't remember seeing that as a side-effect ;)

[ZoloftBlob]

You probably don't want to see me think *hard* on this. ;)

[easypeasy]

14 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I think the way they should have resolved this dispute between Rick and crew and Negan and crew would be to have had Abe (while still alive, that is) and Negan enter a winner-take-all "stupid sayings contest."

Dolphin smooth

Suck my nuts

Pour the bisquick

Easy peasy

 

I'm kind of partial to this one myself....

Anyway, as with everything these days, this show now belongs to Negan. He's exclusively featured over all TWD social media banners and headers and is the subject of most of the discussions, tweets etc., and the same goes for fan forums- It's all Negan, all the time. While plenty of us find him insufferable, there's a lot of 'He's so perfect/ cool/sexy/charismatic/awesome/funny/hot' opinions too.  There are fans who would legitimately enjoy just watching him strut around and laugh at his own jokes for an hour and, on rewatch, I think the show almost achieved that feat last night.  I hope to God that JDM gets bored of portraying this character sooner rather than later.

I wonder if they kept the same baby actress from last season for Judith? She was so expressive and adorable, and nice to see the character growing up again.

[easypeasy]

14 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I think the way they should have resolved this dispute between Rick and crew and Negan and crew would be to have had Abe (while still alive, that is) and Negan enter a winner-take-all "stupid sayings contest."

Dolphin smooth

Suck my nuts

Pour the bisquick

Easy peasy

 

I'm kind of partial to this one myself....

Anyway, as with everything these days, this show now belongs to Negan. He's exclusively featured over all TWD social media banners and headers and is the subject of most of the discussions, tweets etc., and the same goes for fan forums- It's all Negan, all the time. While plenty of us find him insufferable, there's a lot of 'He's so perfect/ cool/sexy/charismatic/awesome/funny/hot' opinions too.  There are fans who would legitimately enjoy just watching him strut around and laugh at his own jokes for an hour and, on rewatch, I think the show almost achieved that feat last night.  I hope to God that JDM gets bored of portraying this character sooner rather than later.

I wonder if they kept the same baby actress from last season for Judith? She was so expressive and adorable, and nice to see the character growing up again.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Nowhere said:

Old Rick would have come back and immediately prepared his people for war. It's not something they haven't done before.

They should have done that at least with getting the guns out of there, and should have been prepared for them to take stuff out of their house. Since it's only been less than a week, I don't know if it's enough time to galvanize *all* the people there into fighting back *and* come up with a credible plan to be prepared for him to visit at anytime. And even a scheduled visit might not have included him. Plus, they have Daryl hostage to consider. 

None of them are really strategic thinkers, and ASZ is largely idiot zone too. So it's kind of uphill.

I'd prefer a long game myself just for something actually different to happen. I'm not necessarily on board with 'kill Negan and the whole thing unravels.' Though I don't think he's got much loyalty. I think it's likely the remaining jerks would squabble to take over. Which also gives an opportunity. 

Honestly, I'd just up and leave. 

17 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

There are fans who would legitimately enjoy just watching him strut around and laugh at his own jokes for an hour and, on rewatch, I think the show almost achieved that feat last night.

I think that says more about those viewers than anything. 

[thuganomics85]

So... I was late for this one and totally forgot it was a hour and a half long.  Should have known that extra thirty minutes was going to be more of Negan gloating, pontifying, smirking, swinging his imaginary dick around, speechifying, smirking, sneering, and make stupid remark.  I'm almost yearning for the times I was complain over extended episodes featuring Morgan sticking fighting with cheesemakers.

In all seriousness, I get what they are trying to do.  In their minds, Negan is one of the most charismatic, love to hate villains, who people will get a kick out of watching be the King, and lording over Rick and the rest.  It will make his hopeful(?) downfall all that better.  But I just don't see it.  Again, Jeffery Dean Morgan isn't the problem, but something about him is lacking.  I feel like I'm suppose to think he belongs in the category of the likes of, say, Al Swearengen, Boyd Crowder, Stringer Bell, hell, even freaking Joffrey Baratheon.  But I don't.  He's just the Governor times 100.  Yawn.

Anyway, no surprise, that Rick is towing the line, because at this point, he knows that Negan will just off anyone he wants to, so that sucks.  Especially since Carl and Michonne both don't agree, but I'm not sure what they can do either.  They're all just fucked right now.

At least Rosita got a lot to do, even if I doubt her one little bullet will have that much of an impact.  But at the very least maybe she'll take Dwight out?  Please?!

Father Gabriel somehow becomes the MVP, because him popping out of nowhere and startling Negan was pretty hilarious.

"I had a friend!  His name was Shane!  He slept with Lori!  I had to kill him!  Since then, he found supporting in work in some pretty great films actually, and now he's the fucking Punisher!  Damn him!"  Well, that's what I liked to have thought was really being said (in all seriousness, I'm glad Jon Bernthal is becoming a pretty big star now.)  I would so be down for Frank Castle showing up here.

At least next week we get to check in on Hilltop.  If nothing else, I rather see Steven Ogg's henchman be the one talking shit, since Trevor from Grand Theft Auto V is way more entertaining then Negan.

Edited November 15, 2016 by thuganomics85

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

None of them are really strategic thinkers, and ASZ is largely idiot zone too. So it's kind of uphill.

But that really is part of what is making this unbelievable. The ASZ group totally knows that Rick and Rick's hit squad murdered a bunch of Negan's people so that *they* could take a big share of Hilltop's food and medicine in payment. An inherent flaw here is that no one outside of Rick's group in Alexandria ever seems to learn anything about life in  the post apocalypse. There's no reason, after battling zombies galore and endorsing the *murder for hire* that the people in Alexandria should be this clueless.

Maybe I am just too fucking clever here but if I was in a post apoc village and our leader returned from a simple wellness check up with two of his closest henchman with heads so badly shattered there was no hope of identifying them... I'd be asking what the fuck happened and how does this impact my life and does the crazy sob with the baseball plan to come here?

There's a point where the story requires everyone to be an idiot and this is an example.

[ViewerPDX]

 Too bad Olivia didn't know my old boss. Two books is always the way to go! Especially when there are surprise audits!

I think she would have if she had known the harsh realities outside the Alexandria walls.  Instead Rick had to compromise and then the ineffective and disorganized Wolves attacked.  Negan is another thing in his entirety and Rick never really let any of them know about that group.

Edited November 15, 2016 by ViewerPDX
spelling

[peach]

5 hours ago, J----av said:

 LOL Carl is one of the worst written characters in the show

Aww, but I love Carl the way I love Keanu Reeves.  Never change, Carl!

[peach]

double post

Edited November 15, 2016 by peach

[peach]

1 hour ago, ZoloftBlob said:

But that really is part of what is making this unbelievable. The ASZ group totally knows that Rick and Rick's hit squad murdered a bunch of Negan's people so that *they* could take a big share of Hilltop's food and medicine in payment. An inherent flaw here is that no one outside of Rick's group in Alexandria ever seems to learn anything about life in  the post apocalypse. There's no reason, after battling zombies galore and endorsing the *murder for hire* that the people in Alexandria should be this clueless.

Maybe I am just too fucking clever here but if I was in a post apoc village and our leader returned from a simple wellness check up with two of his closest henchman with heads so badly shattered there was no hope of identifying them... I'd be asking what the fuck happened and how does this impact my life and does the crazy sob with the baseball plan to come here?

There's a point where the story requires everyone to be an idiot and this is an example.

This show is still skipping over the conversations I want to see.  They're great at building up the anticipation and then shit at follow thru. 

So, I finally watched the "highlights."  It's not a bad show if you FF large portions of it.  My 2 cents on what Rick was saying about Judith, in the context of this episode, was that he had to accept what happened with Lori and Shane, and find a way to live with it because that's the way it was, to move on.  He was using it as an example when he was imploring Michonne to accept THIS situation.  Not that it was written very well.  And besides loving Judith for all the normal reasons, I mean...not only is Shane Judith's father, but Rick killed him.  He killed Judith's real father, and he has that extra responsibility in addition to loving her.

Agree with the others, of course, that surely sometime he's told Michonne that he "had a friend named Shane who saved Lori & Carl."  I mean, duh.  Shit, even Laurie talked about Shane.

Edited November 15, 2016 by peach

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Good God, an extra-long episode (mostly) dedicated to Negan loving the sound of his own voice.  Screw Olivia, please kill me instead!  It'd truly be a mercy killing.

Nothing says 'exiting with grace' like gleefully describing how a situations likens itself to someone thankfully accepting a dick down their throat.

Not really liking your chances on sharing floor space with Rosita now, Spencer.  You weak food-&-alcohol-hording dickbag.

FPP being the voice of hope.  Damn.  Shit really is bleak, currently. 

Dwight can die now.  He's out-dicked himself.  Time's up, anytime your ready writers.

A Shane shout-out!  I imagine this was in the script, but cut for time;  "He and Lori were together.  I know Judith isn't mine. ....... Oh, and then after going coocoo for Cocoa Puffs, he tried to kill me to keep Lori & Carl all for himself.  Best. Friend. Ever!"

I know Rick seems all meek and cowed now, but I am excited for when the time comes that he just literally unleashes all kinds of hatefully-driven rage on that black-hearted blowhard Negan.

Edited November 15, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[J----av]

5 hours ago, Nowhere said:

Touché on Daryl being held hostage. If that weren't the case though they could have sniped Negan and then taken out the truck. My theory is that the other men back at his place wouldn't have cared enough to take revenge right away if at all. They would at least have to gather their thoughts now that their commander in chief was dead, giving Rick time to make further plans. Rick had enough weapons to have armed everyone he had in Alexandria and I didn't think Negan had sixty men with him. Didn't look like it to me. Ricks people have skill too, although apparently michonne can't shoot accurately. Seems like Negan's men are just a bunch of weak minded followers. As long as they have Negan they're tough guys, but as soon as Negan is gone, what?

Old Rick would have come back and immediately prepared his people for war. It's not something they haven't done before. The fact that they have that gate and platform, not to mention a few other sneaky places to hold sniper positions, gives them somewhat of an advantage. They've done this so many times before. Im just saying, cut off the head of the snake and they're left with a bunch of creepers caressing little girls over balloons. These don't seem like the brightest bulbs.

 

 They had like what, 4 or 5 trucks with them? The one RPG shot they had is not taking them all out. Who does Rick have there that has shown they are somewhat competent at combat? Rick, Michonne (who i guess can't shoot) and Rosita? Then they have Carl and Spencer who are not that great. Everyone else at Alexandria has been shown to be useless. Ricks most useful fighters besides Michonne and Rosita were Sasha (not there), Maggie (with Sasha), Carol (not there), Morgan (not there and wont kill people), Daryl (hostage), Glenn (dead), Abe (dead), Heath (not there), Tara (not there). They would be massacred. Remember Negan seems to try pull in the strong (thats why he wanted Daryl) so his group of men are probably all good at killing while Rick only has 2 that are good with him at the time.

 

 Old Rick never went against someone who has even close to as large a crew as Negan has. Old Rick was never held hostage surrounded by 50 plus armed men while he is forced to watch two of his friends get their heads smashed in and his son's arm almost cut off. Old Rick had way more good fighters by his side then he has now. Old Rick has never had a threat close to as big and dangers as Negan. He has never done this before. The most he had taken out before was like the  Governor and his 15 armed people who said they were not fighters. I counted over 70 people for Negan in episode 1 and that probably wasn't even all of them. This is a very new situation for Rick 

 

 And even if Negans people  were ok with him being dead, they probably wouldn't be ok with all their buddies being killed. Plus don't forget Negan's right hand man Simon is still back with the rest of Negan's men and he seems VERY loyal to Negan and have control over the men. I can't think of any realistic scenario that doesn't end with Rick and everyone he loves dead 

Edited November 15, 2016 by J----av

[J----av]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So... I was late for this one and totally forgot it was a hour and a half long.  Should have done that extra thirty minutes was going to be more of Negan gloating, pontifying, smirking, swinging his imaginary dick around, speechifying, smirking, sneering, and make stupid remark.  I'm almost yearning for the times I was complain over extended episodes featuring Morgan sticking fighting with cheesemakers.

In all seriousness, I get what they are trying to do.  In their minds, Negan is one of the most charismatic, love to hate villains, who people will get a kick out of watching be the King, and lording over Rick and the rest.  It will make his hopeful(?) all that better.  But I just don't see it.  Again, Jeffery Dean Morgan isn't the problem, but something about him is lacking.  I feel like I'm suppose to think he belongs in the category of the likes of, say, Al Swearengen, Boyd Crowder, Stringer Bell, hell, even freaking Joffrey Baratheon.  But I don't.  He's just the Governor times 100.  Yawn.

Anyway, no surprise, that Rick is towing the line, because at this point, he knows that Negan will just off anyone he wants to, so that sucks.  Especially since Carl and Michonne both don't agree, but I'm not sure what they can do either.  They're all just fucked right now.

At least Rosita got a lot to do, even if I doubt her one little bullet will have that much of an impact.  But at the very least maybe she'll take Dwight out?  Please?!

Father Gabriel somehow becomes the MVP, because him popping out of nowhere and startling Negan was pretty hilarious.

"I had a friend!  His name was Shane!  He slept with Lori!  I had to kill him!  Since then, he found supporting in work in some pretty great films actually, and now he's the fucking Punisher!  Damn him!"  Well, that's what I liked to have thought was really being said (in all seriousness, I'm glad Jon Bernthal is becoming a pretty big star now.)  I would so be down for Frank Castle showing up here.

At least next week we get to check in on Hilltop.  If nothing else, I rather see Steven Ogg's henchman be the one talking shit, since Trevor from Grand Theft Auto V is way more entertaining then Negan.

 No one ever called Joffrey a charismatic, love to hate villains, who people will get a kick out of watching be the King. Joff was not appreciated as a villain until he was long gone and people started seeing how great he was. The first 4 seasons everyone begged for him to be killed off and said it wasn't fun seeing him be evil. Not saying Negan will be TWDs Joffrey, but Joffrey probably was not the best example

[J----av]

3 hours ago, millennium said:

When Dorothy melted the Wicked Witch, none of the soldiers retaliated against her.   They were kinda relieved as I recall.   Maybe Negan's men would be relieved too.   Finally, a moment of silence.   Picture them meekly handing Lucille to Rick and saying, "Yes, and take it with you."

 Would you risk everyone you love at the slight chance that Negan's men might be OK with Negan dying? Rick has no reason to believe that would happen. He hasn't seen how things work at Negan's camp. 

[millennium]

13 minutes ago, J----av said:

 Would you risk everyone you love at the slight chance that Negan's men might be OK with Negan dying? Rick has no reason to believe that would happen. He hasn't seen how things work at Negan's camp. 

Well yeah, but if all else fails he just has to click his heels together three times ...

[peach]

43 minutes ago, J----av said:

They had like what, 4 or 5 trucks with them? The one RPG shot they had is not taking them all out. Who does Rick have there that has shown they are somewhat competent at combat? Rick, Michonne (who i guess can't shoot) and Rosita? Then they have Carl and Spencer who are not that great. Everyone else at Alexandria has been shown to be useless. Ricks most useful fighters besides Michonne and Rosita were Sasha (not there), Maggie (with Sasha), Carol (not there), Morgan (not there and wont kill people), Daryl (hostage), Glenn (dead), Abe (dead), Heath (not there), Tara (not there). They would be massacred. Remember Negan seems to try pull in the strong (thats why he wanted Daryl) so his group of men are probably all good at killing while Rick only has 2 that are good with him at the time.

Seriously.  And Michonne also know this.  When she said "we got everything we have by fighting" I thought most of the "we" is gone right now.  I wish they would have talked about things like wondering about Carol and Morgan.  And I'm continually annoyed at how Glenn's death has been handled, which is as a footnote to the group's problems and weeks go by before we get to any type of grieving scenes, and when they get to Hilltop they probably STILL wont' show that.

Another thing, if they won't hide a single gun for fear of retribution, what do they think will happen if Negan ever sees Maggie, who they just lied about being dead?  Maggie doesn't even know they told this lie, so she wouldn't know to keep out of sight of the Saviors.  I'm sure Father Gabriel has hidden something in the grave, which was a good idea, but it seems like there will be huge trouble over Maggie later.  Then again, whatever I am expecting, they will skip over for something boring.

[Scaeva]

8 hours ago, J----av said:

  Negan had like 60 armed men (with more back at his place) and some big ass trucks to run the gate down with. He also has Ricks BFF hostage. Rick has only 1 RPG shot left i believe and what, 30 people? Many children and people that are not good at fighting. Best Rick could hope for is shooting a truck with his last RPG shot (risking his BFF getting killed) and then taking out a few more of them before Negan and his crew surround the place, scale the walls and take everyone out. Fighting back right now would certainly get them all killed . Out manned out gunned and Rick probably would never shoot an RPG at them with Daryl with them.

 And we have seen the "Rick fights back and kicks their asses" story a million times already. I kinda like that he is FINALLY going up against a bigger tougher group 

It would actually be very easy to take out Negan's group. Rick being cowed by Negan's superior numbers is almost as implausible as the zombies.

Negan may have a manpower advantage but his extortion racket makes him vulnerable. In order to collect his group has to follow some semblance of a schedule. A schedule opens you up to being ambushed. Granted, Negan came early...but you know he is eventually going to come rolling up to your front gate. Rick knows they're coming, where they're coming from, and the route they're going to take. He also knows they're going to be taking vehicles and travelling the road rather than bushwacking, because they need to transport whatever they steal from Alexandria. That was the perfect opportunity.

If Rick's group was smart, and unfortunately they've long ago established that they're not, they would have posted an OP (observation post) watching the road to Alexandria. The group would have had a drill where a radio warning from that OP would send the Alexandrians scurrying with their weapons to a prepared ambush site along that same road. Meanwhile they'd have already blocked the road at the ambush site with a downed tree or parked vehicles.

When that convoy inevitably stops because the approach is blocked, you fire that RPG at the rear vehicle in the convoy and completely box them in. The convoy is now trapped on an open road in a blocked ambush, taking small arms fire from heavily armed people in cover and concealment in the woodline. Numbers don't count for much when you're caught in the open and taken by surprise. It would be a Turkey Shoot.

Game over for Negan and his merry men, sparing us from having to hear any more of his blathering.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Scaeva

[BetyBee]

I hated this episode.  I hate this season.  They should have fought (and definitely should have at least killed Negan) while they still had guns.  I think we saw a shadowy toddler Judith and heard the final word on who her daddy is because she will soon be gone.  I just don't see how you can film a toddler in Negan world (or maybe in the ZA at all), so I'm afraid she's going to be toast.  That might be the impetus for castrated Rick to fight again.  The new baby focus will be on Maggie's baby.  I will probably keep watching, but alone.  My husband is checking out.  The writing is awful.  There is no way to keep the lie about Maggie a secret. I'm sick of Negan.  This most assuredly did not have to be a 90 minute episode.  

[Johnny Dollar]

It's quite obvious to me why Negan's minions were spending valuable time and truck space by emptying the ASZ houses of their wing chairs and candlesticks. He's planning a ZA version of Fixer Upper and he needs that stuff for staging purposes. Negan will be the wise-cracking Chip and Daryl will be the ever-so-frustrated Joanna. Now, where can we find some shiplap?

[RustbeltWriter]

The more I think about this episode, the less sense it makes to me. Rick's group kills an entire outpost of Saviors at the radio station, takes out the motorcycle gang on the road, kills a few more in that factory where Carol was being held and somehow they still have the advantage of numbers. The Rick who was willing to risk everything in Terminus to free his group, who made a stand against The Governor when he showed up with a tank is now willing to roll over and let Negan take their guns even though he had plenty of time to prepare for his arrival. This just seems like poorly written material that is servicing the comic book readers.

[GodsBeloved]

It's just dawned on me. Rick is just having one of his mental breakdowns. Once he gets himself together or Michonne knocks him upside the head he'll bounce back, guns a blazin'/machete a swingin'

[mandolin]

23 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

It's like they all just sat around with their thumbs up their butts, waiting for some guy with a baseball bat to show up and steal all their stuff. With the arsenal at Alexandria, they never had to open the gates at all, just blow away Negan and his crew the minute they showed up. Maybe what we saw works fine in comics, where everything is over-the-top and larger than life, but here it just makes Rick and his crew look like morons.

 I hate to say it, but the show has made enough changes from the comics that I really think this whole storyline worked better in the comics.  Not just because it's a different medium, but the flow of the story was just better. There was more time over however many issues versus these plodding episodes. 

 And thanks, show, for still giving our characters no time to grieve.  Or at least not letting us see it. Way to skip over the stuff I might actually care about… Again. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by mandolin

[Ruprecht]

Quote

I tend to think Rick is biding his time, but I still think Carl will be the one to take out Negan. 

I sure hope not. Chandler Riggs has not grown up to be a good actor. 

I've found the entire Negan storyline to be tiresome. But I've been wondering what could happen to make it pay off for me. For example, I'd love some sort of "and then there were none" action. Every time Negan comes calling, he leaves with one or two fewer henchmen. After all, what do we do with an evil dictator? We cut off their resources! "Mean Girls" for the win! 

[luna1122]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 1:15 AM, AngelaHunter said:

Not attracted. In fact he said, "You. Look. Like. HELL."

 

 

Rape isn't about attraction. What Negan does with his 'harem' is about power and fear and subjugation, not chemistry and hormones and thinking someone's pretty. It's rape.

I hate Negan possibly more than any other 'villian' around and I'm not remotely enjoying this storyline. I am not a huge JDM fan, and he played this same lip smacking, verbose, gleefully evil, morally bankrupt, scenery chewing bad guy in 'Salvation', where he made the mistake of going after my love, Mads Mikkelsen (who knows how to play a bad guy with subtlety, unlike Morgan, apparently). I am flummoxed by anyone who could find Negan entertaining or charming at this point. But I've been flummoxed by a lot of people's choices and preferences this past week. 

[ChipBach]

It's impossible to stop Negan now that he has all the guns in the world...  Geez.  There are over a several hundred million guns in the US and over a trillion bullets...  We're acting like twenty five guns is the difference.

Also - isn't the expectation from Negan that they are going to forage for "stuff"?

One good recon/search mission in Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia should bring the Alexandria Cabal back to fighting strength.

[Arnella]

I read that Dr. Strange in the comics says his spells out loud but the film makers realized that worked in the comics perfectly but was too silly on screen.   I think TWD should have gone the same way and trimmed the yammering - tv is a visual medium after all. 

SO sick of that little knee dip JDM uses for emphasis.

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

Rape isn't about attraction. What Negan does with his 'harem' is about power and fear and subjugation, not chemistry and hormones and thinking someone's pretty. It's rape.

Of course I know rape (maybe coercion/blackmail is more apt in this case) has nothing to do with being attracted to someone. It's that someone like Nega, who brags like a teenage boy about a woman being "hot!" and who has his choice of women would choose someone he finds "hot." They're acquisitions - trophies, IMO, and no one wants a trophy that "looks like Hell."

[Ocean Chick]

• I so enjoyed Shane sooooooooooooo much more as a villain - he had layers.  Negan has no layers.  No subtlety.  He's a cartoon.

[Ashura77]

20 hours ago, millennium said:

This would have happened already if this ZA weren't so sanitized.   The guys following Negan would be the very worst society has to offer.   They would include rapists, murderers, etc.   It's been awhile since society collapsed, meaning they would be neo-barbarians by now.  They would have carried off the women (probably even Carl too what with his purty hair) almost immediately.  Dwight taunting Rosita with the hat was ridiculous.   He would have dragged her to the side of the road, defiled her, then taken her hat if not her life.   Of course, these guys also would have cut Negan up into little pieces a LONG time ago, so ... 

Exactly, and that is what makes the "mattress"-burning even more ridiculous, I mean why would a guy like him go on a mattress rampage instead of hitting where it hurts the most, it is a way he keeps his own men in check by having their wives in his harem, offering them when the good boys have been nice.

On another note, maybe Rick went on his "Judith is not mine"-hysterics in order to really keep her safe, as in, Negan not knowing she is his and her becoming another pawn he can use to torment good ol' Rick.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Ashura77
Added more

[ByTor]

On 11/14/2016 at 9:47 AM, GodsBeloved said:

I thought it ironic and funny for Rick to call Spencer out on being weak when he had Negan's penis in his mouth the entire episode.

Of course Rick, a bully in his own right, has to have someone to bully now that Negan emasculated him.  I also do not blame Spencer in the least for hiding a couple guns.  As others have pointed out, from Spencer's viewpoint everything was fine until Rick came barreling in, and if I'm remembering correctly many of the problems started when Rick decided that a man hitting his wife was punishable by death.  How is Spencer supposed to know what else is punishable by death in Rick's twisted little mind?  I actively cheered him on when he asked how "lucky" Abe & Glenn were, but of course I'm always glad when someone calls that asshole on his bullshit.  And yeah, I do know I'm at a table for one here.

However, as much as I hate hate hate Rick, I do think his attempt at goodwill by turning over Michonne's gun was  a good idea.  No, it didn't work as an attempt to get Daryl back, but at least since the group was being side-eyed over the missing guns, it did offer to show Negan that they're not purposely trying to be shady.

So glad to hear Hilltop is going to be shown next week (I have the Amazon season pass & don't see previews), at least I'll get my Jesus eye candy, which, by the way, kills me because Negan should also be my eye candy, but his hotness is unfortunately overshadowed by how annoying he is.

[festivus]

I don't hate Rick but I was on Spencer's side in that argument. About the guns anyway. I haven't commented on this episode because I dozed off a couple of times during it and I do not plan to watch it again. I will say what many others have, that Negan is not working for me. I have a feeling that I will not be rewatching season 7 in the future except for the Kingdom episodes.

[CletusMusashi]

21 hours ago, RustbeltWriter said:

The more I hear Negan talk the more I'm reminded of Dennis Hopper's character in Waterworld and man, that is not a good thing.

Blasphemy! Dennis Hopper in Waterworld was fucking hilarious! Negan is just some guy who never shuts up.

[AngelaHunter]

26 minutes ago, ByTor said:

kills me because Negan should also be my eye candy, but his hotness is unfortunately overshadowed by how annoying he is.

Yeah, damned shame that the juvenile, smart-aleck, "my dog's bigger than your dog" bully act completely obscures the hotness under it.

Quote

Of course Rick, a bully in his own right, has to have someone to bully now that Negan emasculated him.

And a cocky little "everything belongs to me" bully he turned into, until he met an even cockier, bull-ier bully. The fact that Negan towers over him just emphasizes that.

ETA:

Quote

Blasphemy! Dennis Hopper in Waterworld was fucking hilarious!

Fucking A! Dennis ruled!

Edited November 15, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[ByTor]

20 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

And a cocky little "everything belongs to me" bully he turned into, until he met an even cockier, bull-ier bully. The fact that Negan towers over him just emphasizes that.

True.  He even had a little bit of the Negan attitude with the battered wife (Jessie, I think?), Rick flirted with her so of course he expected to be able to have her, marriage be damned.  Although, to be fair, he was at least better than Negan in the sense that Rick wouldn't have taken her by force or intimidation.

[Timetoread]

Ok I had a delayed thought that just came to me.  I think the story that they are attempting to build here is that Negan is the biggest bad that ever big badded in the apocalypse but unbeknownst to him, he's met his match in Rick.  This of course will become more apparent when we stop seeing Negan make Rick cry.  What came to me was the found footage of Rick and his group interviewing with Deanna.  Negan had a good time laughing at Rick's Wild Man of Borneo beard (though pots need not laugh at kettles), but we the viewer should remember what Rick was saying in that video.  He was telling Deanna that he had killed people - so many that he'd lost count - and that the reason he'd done it was to protect his family and he'd do it again if it was needed.  To which Deanna uttered the response that made me kind of like her, "Seems to me that I'd want to be part of your family."

In addition to seeing what the others, including Daryl, are made of (and to see that dog food is actually an improvement on Daryl's diet) what he may gather is that being an existential threat to Rick's family doesn't break him, it ultimately just makes him stronger.   "Kill Negan" is at the top of Rick's to do list right now.  And although he can't do it right away, he always keeps his promises.  Right Gareth?

Edited November 15, 2016 by Timetoread

[AngelaHunter]

3 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Ok I had a delayed thought that just came to me.  I think the story that they are attempting to build here is that Negan is the biggest bad that ever big badded in the apocalypse but unbeknownst to him, he's met his match in Rick.  This of course will become more apparent when we stop seeing Negan make Rick cry.  What came to me was the found footage of Rick and his group interviewing with Deanna.  Negan had a good time laughing at Rick's Wild Man of Borneo beard (though pots need not laugh at kettles), but we the viewer should remember what Rick was saying in that video.  He was telling Deanna that he had killed people - so many that he'd lost count - and that the reason he'd done it was to protect his family and he'd do it again if it was needed.  To which Deanna uttered the response that made me kind of like her, "Seems to me that I'd want to be part of your family."

In addition to seeing what the others, including Daryl, are made of (and to see that dog food is actually on improvement in Daryl's diet) what he may gather is that being an existential threat to Rick's family doesn't break him, it makes ultimately just makes him stronger.   "Kill Negan" is at the top of Rick's to do list right now.  And although he can't do it right away, he always keeps his promises.  Right Gareth?

I wish I could give this more than one "like."  And yeah, Rick's gonna do something, right after Negan pulls his dick out of his throat.

[Timetoread]

3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I wish I could give this more than one "like."  And yeah, Rick's gonna do something, right after Negan pulls his dick out of his throat.

Well if he's looking for replacement space ...(Whoops did I just say that out loud?)

[peach]

11 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Good God, an extra-long episode (mostly) dedicated to Negan loving the sound of his own voice.  Screw Olivia, please kill me instead!  It'd truly be a mercy killing.

Nothing says 'exiting with grace' like gleefully describing how a situations likens itself to someone thankfully accepting a dick down their throat.

Negan's the kind of bore who explains why a joke is funny, thereby ruining it.  There was power in the scene when Rick was forced to say thank you without vomiting in his mouth, and then Negan struts away.  But no, he had to then 'splain it for us, too.  Yes, we know, Negan, we just saw.  Went from feeling sick for Rick to just rolling my eyes.  As the Heathers would say, "How very."

[AngelaHunter]

4 minutes ago, peach said:

Negan's the kind of bore who explains why a joke is funny, thereby ruining it. 

Ha! In that way he's like Paulie on the Sopranos, after he told a joke. "Did you hear that? Did you get it? I just said... "

Quote

There was power in the scene when Rick was forced to say thank you without vomiting in his mouth, and then Negan struts away.  But no, he had to then 'splain it for us, too. 

It seems that was a line in the comics that everyone wanted in here.

[GodsBeloved]

15 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

And yeah, Rick's gonna do something, right after Negan pulls his dick out of his throat.

Oh my! But really does anyone not expect Rick to rise from the ashes and handle Negan?

[RustbeltWriter]

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Rape isn't about attraction. What Negan does with his 'harem' is about power and fear and subjugation, not chemistry and hormones and thinking someone's pretty. It's rape.

I hate Negan possibly more than any other 'villian' around and I'm not remotely enjoying this storyline. I am not a huge JDM fan, and he played this same lip smacking, verbose, gleefully evil, morally bankrupt, scenery chewing bad guy in 'Salvation', where he made the mistake of going after my love, Mads Mikkelsen (who knows how to play a bad guy with subtlety, unlike Morgan, apparently). I am flummoxed by anyone who could find Negan entertaining or charming at this point. But I've been flummoxed by a lot of people's choices and preferences this past week. 

I think the showrunners and fans of Negan are blind to the fact that while the character insists he is having consensual sex with his "wives" and that he forbids his thugs to rape, he himself is raping these women. If Dwight's wife Sherry bartered herself to save his life, then she's acting under duress and intimidation. I'm watching closely to see how they treat this issue because Negan outlawing rape while he commits it is not a virtue. The show needs to be honest about what's happening.

[Scaeva]

3 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

• I so enjoyed Shane sooooooooooooo much more as a villain - he had layers.  Negan has no layers.  No subtlety.  He's a cartoon.

Shane is by the far best antagonist the show has had.

Both the Governor and Negan feel like comic book characters, which fails in a TV show. They're too cartoonish.

[AngelaHunter]

3 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

Both the Governor and Negan feel like comic book characters, which fails in a TV show. They're too cartoonish.

I guess I'm the only one who didn't find the Governor cartoonish. Maybe because I felt David Morrissey was able to give some nuances of humanity, conflict and even self-loathing to the character. I see nothing yet in Negan except that he's "Bad Bad Leroy Brown - baddest man in the whole damned town."