S07.E04: Service

[DEL901]

So we now have Alexandria, Hilltop, The Kingdom and whatever the Saviors call their place.  Too much, too much.  Characters not named Negan have little to no screen time.  Even Rick has less.

[ShadowSixx]

3 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

So we now have Alexandria, Hilltop, The Kingdom and whatever the Saviors call their place.  Too much, too much.  Characters not named Negan have little to no screen time.  Even Rick has less.

Negan having little to no screen time?? He's been hogging up too much screen time. If the general consensus around here is that he talks too much in all the episodes that he's been in then yeah he's had a lot of screen time. He's been in 4 episodes and 3 out of 4 episodes this season. I have to disagree about Rick getting less as well.

Edited November 14, 2016 by ShadowSixx

[ElleMo]

10 hours ago, lmsweb said:

Maggie went to Hilltop, with Sasha. Which begs the question - why didn't Negan ask where Sasha was, since she was there when he Lucille'd Abe and Glenn.

Or Michonne?

[GodsBeloved]

Since Rick and the rickciples didn't fulfill their end of the bargain does that mean they will return Hilltop's produce? 

I thought it ironic and funny for Rick to call Spencer out on being weak when he had Negan's penis in his mouth the entire episode. I'm still hoping Rick has his machete somewhere and after he gets over the mind f*** Negan is putting on him and gets rid of the Spencer in him Rick will get to slicing some heads to the white meat.

YaY to Gabriel's quick thinking with the empty graves.

Karl if you're going to pull a gun on someone best be ready to pull the trigger otherwise sit your one eyed a$$ down.

Edited November 14, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[ElleMo]

Did Rosita get her gun from the walkers she attacked?  And so walkers usually stay in the exact same spot for a week?  I thought they wandered around. 

[Yakimaman]

11 hours ago, MostlyContent said:

Well, it's obvious that Eugene's idea of reloading bullets is going to happen.   There could be some interesting ramifications of that.  

You can't take a .44 mag case (which it is) and turn it into a 9mm (which is what the gun she found is chambered for).  The whole premise of "making bullets" is ridiculous.  Can't be done.  

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, Boofish said:

I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a Negan supporter

Stop it! Just Stop It!! LOL

I do like his teeth though.

[ElleMo]

8 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was a little dumfounded when Silly Spencer had absolutely no idea who Negan was. Obviously someone clued him in why Abe and Glenn didn't come  down for breakfast the next day. Does he have short-term memory loss?

3

I don't think he expected Negan to come, he expected a lackey.  

[DEL901]

18 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

Negan having little to no screen time?? He's been hogging up too much screen time. If the general consensus around here is that he talks too much in all the episodes that he's been in then yeah he's had a lot of screen time. He's been in 4 episodes and 3 out of 4 episodes this season. I have to disagree about Rick getting less as well.

I think you misunderstood me.  I said "characters not named Negan had little or no screen time.  I agree, Negan has had FAR too much screen time.

[GodsBeloved]

11 hours ago, mustbekarma said:

Thanks for the recap. I follow the live thread, but I refuse to watch the episodes.  That being said, I wonder if Rick surrendering all the guns to Negan was to lull him into a sense of false security.  It's not like they won't find more guns, not will hundreds of millions of them in America.  If Negan thinks the Alexandrites are being good girls and boys, that gives them time to plan.

I wish I felt this was Rick's plan but he stayed in his bent over position even when Negan wasn't around. He basically told Gabriel and Michonne they are screwed and they need to accept that.

[RustbeltWriter]

11 hours ago, weightyghost said:

I think they think we are enjoying Negan more than anyone is 

You are spot on WEIGHTYGHOST. It's bad enough that Abraham and Glenn had to die so callously but now we have to watch 90 minutes of Negan strutting around Alexandria preening like a peacock while he and his goons act like a bunch of frat boys. They're clearly going to  twist that knife in Rick's side every chance they get and we've seen how they treat the Kingdom and Hilltop. The Saviors are sadists and while I don't doubt their kind would exist in an apocalypse, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't self destruct. Spencer could have shot through the fence and killed Negan. Carl could have shot him in the house. Hopefully all that swagger does him in at some point.

[ElleMo]

10 hours ago, Timetoread said:

One more before bedtime.  Rick is not neutered or beaten down or any of that. Rosita and Michonne and Carl can show attitude because Negan isn't interested in breaking them.  If Rick gave a bunch of lip, Carl's arm would be back on the chopping block.  Maybe the baby as well.  What is OOC is Michonne for me.  She was in that clearing.  She saw what Negan did to Rick and WHY he did it.  Why is she acting confused?   Part of being an effective warrior is knowing that sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.  Sometimes you have to cede to the strength of your opponent.  If you are walking in the woods and encounter a grizzly bear, it won't matter how tough you are or if you're a fifth degree black belt, the bear will win.  Your best shot is to play dead so that it doesn't see you as a threat.  Fuck being a tough guy - live.

 

 

I disagree. I think he is completely beaten.  In the days since they got back, he didn't even attempt to hide any of the weapons.  His poor excuse (that they might find it) makes no sense.  You've got an entire town and lots of forest to bury things in. Unless there is a secret stash that he is hiding from everyone, then Rick is completely beaten to the point he doesn't think there will ever be a time where they can use weapons against the saviors.  

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Nothing in this episode made sense and nothing justified it being a very long and tedious 90 minutes.  Is it really supposed to be shocking that Rick knows Judith is Shane's spawn?  Other characters were making jokes about it all the way back in season 3.

I think the shock of it, for me at least, was this was probably the first time Rick had ever openly said it. Sure, everyone else in the group speculated. And we sure all knew. But to hear him say it out loud was HUGE for him. Also, I didn't take what he said as negatively as others did - meaning he had to accept that Judith wasn't his in order to keep her alive. I think there probably WAS some confusion over whose she was. There are no DNA tests. Lori is dead. He was never going to know for certain. So he could sit around counting days, trying to figure it out, constantly monitory Judith's developing looks, traits, etc. He could drive himself mad - OR he could just make peace with it. Accept that she's Shane's, once and for all, so he could be in a good head space and not put his kids at risk. We saw how fucked up he was after Lori. So much unfinished business there and he couldn't even take care of himself, let alone his kids or the group. I think he realized he was just going to have to admit to how things really were, so that there'd be no more mindfucks driving him nuts. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by ghoulina

[GodsBeloved]

10 hours ago, Timetoread said:

One more before bedtime.  Rick is not neutered or beaten down or any of that. Rosita and Michonne and Carl can show attitude because Negan isn't interested in breaking them.  If Rick gave a bunch of lip, Carl's arm would be back on the chopping block.  Maybe the baby as well.  What is OOC is Michonne for me.  She was in that clearing.  She saw what Negan did to Rick and WHY he did it.  Why is she acting confused?   Part of being an effective warrior is knowing that sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.  Sometimes you have to cede to the strength of your opponent.  If you are walking in the woods and encounter a grizzly bear, it won't matter how tough you are or if you're a fifth degree black belt, the bear will win.  Your best shot is to play dead so that it doesn't see you as a threat.  Fuck being a tough guy - live.

I would agree that Rick wasn't beaten down but for his scenes with Gabriel and Michonne. Gabriel had to stroke his ego when Rick was lamenting that there was no way out of this. Then he tells Michonne they are screwed and they have to accept it.

It would be foolish at this point for Rick to buck up in Negan's face but even behind closed doors he's literally telling his people there's no way out and they have to accept this.

[nachomama]

The minute they got back to Alexandria they should have had a sit down and started stashing medicine, food, etc. Obviously Negan was going to know they had the guns they took from him but yes, second set of books for sure.

If they did much the same treatment with Gregory or whoever the leader guy is over in Hilltop why isn't Jesus on the top of Negan's list for "admired" fighters? He was like Houdini with Rick and Darryl and seemed almost playful but if he'd had the fear of god installed in him the way CDB has then he wouldn't have messed around, get in, get the truck, no showing off. He doesn't appear to have been through the Darryl or Dwight mindfuck treatment. He would be on Negan's list "to break" or "to groom".

[ElleMo]

10 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Nothing in the Negan storyline is quite making sense to me. As far as Rick and his 'shocking' confession re Judith: Rick has always known Judith may not be his, but he doesn't know for sure she is Shane's daughter either. . .

 

I was getting ready for an interesting revelation, that Rick finally realized that Shane was right and understood quickly that the world wasn't what it used to be and how he wished he hadn't died or something. 

[ghoulina]

26 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I thought it ironic and funny for Rick to call Spencer out on being weak when he had Negan's penis in his mouth the entire episode.

On the contrary, sometimes it takes a very strong person NOT to fight back. 

But I do wonder if Negan's treatment of Rick is going to start turning Rick into a mini-Negan, within HIS community. He can't retaliate, so he might start taking it out on people who fuck up around ASZ. 

27 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

Did Rosita get her gun from the walkers she attacked?  And so walkers usually stay in the exact same spot for a week?  I thought they wandered around. 

Actually, while the show isn't 100% consistent, I seem to recall the theory being they don't really move unless motivated by external stimuli. Hence the pied piper exodus from the quarry. 

[GodsBeloved]

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

It was worse than that.  Rick said he had to accept that Judith wasn't his daughter so he could "keep her alive".  WTF?  The simple fact that she's Carl's sister wasn't enough?  How about the child of the woman you loved?  How about the fact that she's the daughter of your "best friend".  Did he forget that Shane kept Carl alive in the beginning?  How about the fact that she's a helpless baby?  We saw Tyreese, Carol, Maggie, Daryl, and Michonne risk their own lives to save Judith.  They're not her fucking biological parent.  Oh, this really angered me.

I'm still scratching my head over this. Maybe Talking Dead explained it?

Edited November 14, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Primetimer]

In a super-sized episode, Rick gives up and everyone else is terrified of the new world leader.

View the full article

[candall]

Negan giving Carl a pass was inconsistent.  Negan's "thing" is tenfold retaliation.  Carl wouldn't have "just" lost them the guns, (that was going to happen anyway,) he would have lost his other eye, or cost someone else some important body parts.

Carl was at the eeny-meeny-miny-mo circle of doom when the rules were explained (and demo'ed.)  What's wrong with this kid?

[The Mighty Peanut]

So is Negan a bad guy? I'm not really clear. I think I'm gonna need more dialogue and an extra long episode. This show sure loves to vague it up.

PS it's Opposite Day 

Edited November 14, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I really don't get the point of Negan completely disarming them. Taking some guns to recoup what he lost, okay. But what good is this group if they're mostly defenseless. He wants them to earn for him, right?

I really don't get WHAT he wants them to earn for him? More decorative items? Different sized mattresses? Dinnerware? More sweats for the fence slaves? He can't expect them to get more guns because they now have no guns with which to go out and get more guns. So what does he want? I still haven't figured it out.

[nodorothyparker]

28 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

But I do wonder if Negan's treatment of Rick is going to start turning Rick into a mini-Negan, within HIS community. He can't retaliate, so he might start taking it out on people who fuck up around ASZ. 

That was honestly my thought when Rick was threatening Spencer and telling him again how lucky they are that Rick and his traveling apocalypse wrecking crew showed up.  Rick very well could end up taking out his frustration and sense of impotence on the people he's claiming to be trying to save.  Sure, I guess if you buy that things like the Wolves and the Saviors and the quarry full of walkers would have happened anyway, there's a certain truth to what he's saying.  But since Alexandria is apparently like a community players production where nothing bad ever happened despite everything being in the same proximity until Rick showed up and someone yelled action,  you can see why Spencer is peeved.  Before Rick, he was part of a ruling family of four and a community that had so much extra they could have a town drunk and book clubs and favorite dinners.  Now almost all the named townspeople are dead and they're sleeping on the floors and giving up guns after Rick assured them that they had to all go murder people to prevent that very thing from happening.

Edited November 14, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Mu Shu]

Wow .  I missed an episode about burning mattresses?  That should hit those ASZ hats where they live.

Also, why didn't Negan kill Olivia?  I thought the rule of him introducing himself to a new group meant one had to die to get his message across.  Glenn and Abe don't count since they didn't see it happen.

I have loathed this woman since the days of her expecting someone to bring her a pasta maker and a leg of boar to make prosciutto with.  Or maybe that was some one else.  No matter, Olivia just sucks.

[candall]

I don't get why Judith's paternity is so critical.  Maybe Shane.  No way to know for sure.  Who cares?

(I wasn't paying strict attention right there.  Did Rick propose treating the baby differently or something?)

[nodorothyparker]

It was some sort of tortured example of how Rick knows how to suck it up where hard truths are concerned to keep people alive.  Or something like that.

I was actually hopeful when Shane's name came up that it would be about how going full Shane and being full of hubris had gotten them where they are.  That would have been at least mildly interesting.

[AngelaHunter]

11 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

And I still don't see why someone doesn't just take him out. Hell, CDB could take all of them out and close the gates and keep shooting.

It's like they all just sat around with their thumbs up their butts, waiting for some guy with a baseball bat to show up and steal all their stuff. With the arsenal at Alexandria, they never had to open the gates at all, just blow away Negan and his crew the minute they showed up. Maybe what we saw works fine in comics, where everything is over-the-top and larger than life, but here it just makes Rick and his crew look like morons.

[Ocean Chick]

So Negan = The Great Blatherator.  Can we just paint him orange and slap a dead animal on his head and be done with it?  I'm so over him, and old Iron Face.  Are the Richonne people still happy now that they got their great romance?  I guess Michonne is gonna have to kill Negan to find Rick's balls.  Or maybe Carl is just borrowing them for the time being.  Spencer is a PBA, but we already knew that.  I hope Rosita took a long hot shower after that one time she slept with him.  I doubt she'll be sleeping with him any more.  And finally Father Gabe steps up and does something smart.  I hope he can keep it up.  And yeah for Rosita finally getting some character development and screen time.  I guess that means she's gonna die this season, eh?

[Timetoread]

1 hour ago, ElleMo said:

I disagree. I think he is completely beaten.  In the days since they got back, he didn't even attempt to hide any of the weapons.  His poor excuse (that they might find it) makes no sense.  You've got an entire town and lots of forest to bury things in. Unless there is a secret stash that he is hiding from everyone, then Rick is completely beaten to the point he doesn't think there will ever be a time where they can use weapons against the saviors.  

And Negan's men occupy those forests.  Negan threatened to kill somebody because two guns were missing.  So how many lives do you think a stash of guns was worth?  I don't think Rick feels that there will be no way to fight Negan, but Rick isn't stupid.  Right now he will lose any pissing contest that he gets into.  Rick has a militia, Negan has a national standing army.  Also Rick has more to lose - his minor children are with him.  One a teenager that Negan has already put a gun and a blade to, and the other a toddler.  Since when did poking the bear become smart?

 

1 hour ago, GodsBeloved said:

I would agree that Rick wasn't beaten down but for his scenes with Gabriel and Michonne. Gabriel had to stroke his ego when Rick was lamenting that there was no way out of this. Then he tells Michonne they are screwed and they have to accept it.

It would be foolish at this point for Rick to buck up in Negan's face but even behind closed doors he's literally telling his people there's no way out and they have to accept this.

I don't believe that he is telling people that there is no way out.  He is telling people that right now they don't have the force needed to fight their way out.  For instance Carl's penis-showing scene.  Let's just say Carl put some holes in the three men in the room with him.  How long before his handgun is out of bullets (9 mm = 19 shots tops) and the next grown male that enters the room kills him?  Well Carl's dead.  Now let's say Rosita pulls the gun she had before Dwight took it.  Well Negan brought about 50 men with him.  She's dead after she fires the first shot.  Do you think for one second, if Negan didn't think he could control this crowd that he would leave a single one of them alive?  Even if they put up the most ferocious last stand known to history, a last stand it would still be.  Is Kamikaze the first choice?  Are they all so stupid that they can't put their heads together for a Plan B?

You know what bothers me,  people blame Rick for everything.  Nobody else ever wants to lead.  They just want to bitch and moan when things go south.  How many of them are willing to chop off their kid's arm?  How many of them want to stand in the front of the church and make life or death decisions for a group of men, women and children where the two choices are "bad" and "worse"?  How many of them ever had a big bad in their face telling them to suck his D or he will blow out the brains of 10 of their closest friends? No they just want to run out, guns blazing, positioned squarely BEHIND Rick, because they are not leaders, they are followers.  

Edited November 14, 2016 by Timetoread
Judith is no longer an infant.

[ghoulina]

25 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I really don't get WHAT he wants them to earn for him? More decorative items? Different sized mattresses? Dinnerware? More sweats for the fence slaves? He can't expect them to get more guns because they now have no guns with which to go out and get more guns. So what does he want? I still haven't figured it out.

He kept saying to bring him something "interesting". I mean, that's so subjective. They might try to give him Mrs. Needlemeyers pasta maker, but that might not interest him at all. How about a giant tiger?

 

2 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

And Negan's men occupy those forests.  Negan threatened to kill somebody because two guns were missing.  So how many lives do you think a stash of guns was worth?  I don't think Rick feels that there will be no way to fight Negan, but Rick isn't stupid.  Right now he will lose any pissing contest that he gets into.  Rick has a militia, Negan has a national standing army.  Also Rick has more to lose - his minor children are with him.  One a teenager that Negan has already put a gun and a blade to, and the other an infant girl.  Since when did poking the bear become smart?

Yea, I don't think Rick is mishandling this at all. He said it himself - he doesn't want to lose anyone else. Negan gives no fucks. He won't kill Rick - because Rick is his latest plaything. But he will kill all those around Rick, to see how badly he can break him. Everyone in that fucking forest should still remember the sounds of Glenn and Abe's skulls being crushed to a pulp. They should still remember the bloody mess they had to take home with them just days before. Why would you even want to fuck with that? The dude has DOZENS of people at his command. Since they decided not to run (if they even HAD that discussion), they need to bide their time. They need to tow the line for a looooong time until Negan is lulled into a false sense of security - thinking he truly broke this group. If they're ever going to get out of this, they have to be insanely smart, thorough, and methodical. This isn't the type of group you can retaliate against right away. 

[allyw]

11 hours ago, jvr said:

I don't think Rick is being smart at all, he might not be completely neutered and might come to his senses and come up with a plan at some point but right now he has fucked them. When they were on the road on their knees, yes, do as they say and be their bitch...but now you are back home with the rest of your group, able to regroup...they should have been ready for a fight. Or at least have been stashing stuff for later.

Being behind the walls of Alexandria with all that gunpower...they could have blown Negan's group to bits when they rolled up to the gates. Rained bullets and rpgs down on their asses. They had a fighting chance even while being outnumbered but now they are outnumber and outgunned...they are in an impossible situation now. I hope Rick knows wtf he is doing.

It was stated in the show that it was less than a week since their encounter with Negan (TD said it was only 3 days) so I don't see Rick being weak for still being broken and grieving for his loved ones. He's a human being who's scared of losing anyone else and at this point doing what he thinks is best to prevent more heads from  getting bashed in with a barbed wire bat.

[The Mighty Peanut]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It was some sort of tortured example of how Rick knows how to suck it up where hard truths are concerned to keep people alive.  Or something like that.

I was actually hopeful when Shane's name came up that it would be about how going full Shane and being full of hubris had gotten them where they are.  That would have been at least mildly interesting.

Totally. Also, IIRC the moral crises of S2 were whether or not the ten or so barn walkers could be contained, and what to do with Randall who could potentially lead bad people back to them. Shane was assasinated over this. Now people kill 10 walkers for it's therapeutic benefits and the standing rule is to kill the enemy first and ask questions later. If the talk with Michonne had been about depriving Judith of her bio dad over the views that Rick now holds himself, it would have been interesting at well. Or, assuming she's told him by now, he could have asked her what she'd do in his situation if Andre was alive. 

I don't get why it was treated like a reveal. Judith's paternity has been referenced multiple times before. Rick gave Lori the cold shoulder the entire time they were in the prison. People have taunted Rick about it. Lori told Shane she would be raising the baby as Rick's child because it was Rick's daughter "no matter what". Not to mention that for all intents and purposes Michonne is now Carl's mother, and no one on Team Family is related to each other by blood except Carl/Rick and Carl/Judith.

Just another weird waste of the extra minutes.

Edited November 14, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[Ashura77]

Awful, nothing but a long long blablabla, and as much as I wanted to like it, like Negan, hell, even like Rick, nope, not this time.

I do wonder though how Rick would react if next time, when they have nothing to give to Negan, the blabbermouth would ask for some of the women for his harem. I don't think the Alexandrians have any idea how bad it really looks, especially with a Rick going all "mellow and weak" on them like with not planning and getting things hidden before Negan even sets out to come over.

[Timetoread]

20 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

I don't get why it was treated like a reveal. Judith's paternity has been referenced multiple times before. Rick gave Lori the cold shoulder the entire time they were in the prison. People have taunted Rick about it. Lori told Shane she would be raising the baby as Rick's child because it was Rick's daughter "no matter what". Not to mention that for all intents and purposes Michonne is now Carl's mother, and no one on Team Family is related to each other by blood except Carl/Rick and Carl/Judith.

I think there was supposed to be some mystery because Rick got one in right before the buzzer, so there was a CHANCE that she was his biologically.  Shane never even entertained the thought, LOL.  I think the writers were trying to show Rick as a man who can accept difficult things, but I don't buy that raising and loving your son's innocent infant sister (the child your wife died birthing) is all that difficult.  Shane loved his son, he can love Shane's daughter.  Hell love her all the more as the best thing Shane ever did - after all the anger and betrayal that went down between the two of them, in the end Rick is left with a piece of Shane to love.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Timetoread

[Ruprecht]

I really hate story telling that makes characters stupid or changes how they behave in order to drive the plot. I loved the evolution of Carol from battered housewife to the strong and crafty woman and fighter that she was. Then they had to go and make her feel  guilty about killing bad people so she wouldn't be a resource to protect Alexandria. This is a woman famous for taking out a psychotic child ("look at the flowers") and threatening to leave another one tied to a tree for walkers to eat. She singlehandedly saved Rick and crew from Terminus. Making her have a guilty conscience thanks to Morgan is dumb and contrived.

And now I feel they are doing the same with Rick. This is a person who bit out the throat of someone in order to protect his son. But they have to have Negan be this invincible villain so, of course, Rick has to be emasculated (Daryl, too). Last night, I got so irritated watching that I got up and starting cooking Thanksgiving stuff to calm down. Maybe I'm a pollyanna but I need to see some balance. If nothing else, Rick's big speech on the guns would have worked for me had he either stepped down as the leader or let them know this wouldn't be their life forever, just for right now. But Negan is  annoying and his lines are ridiculous (cartoon villain, to be sure). He's not charming, not scary, not interesting. He is simultaneously boring, irritating, and tedious. 

The only way last night's episode could have worked for me is if someone planted a bomb on  that truck and blew them all up. 

Quote

Westworld is serving ably as the post Walking-Dead palate cleanser now that Mad Men is over. Check it out!

BloatedGuppy, your entire post was golden and I 100% agree. As awful as TWD was last night, Westworld was freaking amazing. 

[HighMaintenance]

Because this one scene in this episode bugged the crap out of me...One of the most bothersome tropes throughout this show reared its huge head AGAIN with Rick's big "reveal" about Judith.

Rick's just NOW telling Michonne about his bff Shane?  About Judith's paternity?  The secret that was NO secret... especially to the viewers?
C'mon, these survivors have no entertainment distractions, supposedly a LOT of downtime when they're not killing zombies, etc. but somehow they NEVER discuss their pasts or ZA life experiences with each other.  Discussion of the past only comes into play when it suits the plot or they want to throw in a nugget of backstory for the viewer or they're hamfisting some foreshadowing into the story.   

I've known people at work for less than 3 months and I know all their kid's names, where they went to school, what happened to their childhood dog, how many baby daddys they have, and other miscellaneous, useless information... and that's only if I catch them at lunch or the coffee maker.  So don't tell me that these people haven't heard each other's life stories ad infinitum and they're all closed-mouthed, stoic warriors like Michonne.

[Nowhere]

19 minutes ago, Ruprecht said:

I really hate story telling that makes characters stupid or changes how they behave in order to drive the plot. I loved the evolution of Carol from battered housewife to the strong and crafty woman and fighter that she was. Then they had to go and make her feel  guilty about killing bad people so she wouldn't be a resource to protect Alexandria. This is a woman famous for taking out a psychotic child ("look at the flowers") and threatening to leave another one tied to a tree for walkers to eat. She singlehandedly saved Rick and crew from Terminus. Making her have a guilty conscience thanks to Morgan is dumb and contrived.

And now I feel they are doing the same with Rick. This is a person who bit out the throat of someone in order to protect his son. But they have to have Negan be this invincible villain so, of course, Rick has to be emasculated (Daryl, too). Last night, I got so irritated watching that I got up and starting cooking Thanksgiving stuff to calm down. Maybe I'm a pollyanna but I need to see some balance. If nothing else, Rick's big speech on the guns would have worked for me had he either stepped down as the leader or let them know this wouldn't be their life forever, just for right now. But Negan is  annoying and his lines are ridiculous (cartoon villain, to be sure). He's not charming, not scary, not interesting. He is simultaneously boring, irritating, and tedious. 

The only way last night's episode could have worked for me is if someone planted a bomb on  that truck and blew them all up. 

Thank you! I am so annoyed with Darryl right now for this very reason. I hate watching him walk around in his pj's acting like a cranky 3 year old. I get that he was kept in a room and fed dog food but these people have been through a lot. It's unrealistic to make Darryl such a damn pussy right now. At least man up and pretend to be onboard while plotting your revenge. Stop the cowering and averting your eyes. And the dramatic look Rick gave as Daryl was in the back of the truck was so annoying. It's like Daryl suddenly turned into a broken little boy whose daddy has to beg for his return. Reedus is playing this way over the top. He's the anti-Darryl now. Not tough or sexy or cool in any way. I went from ready to riot to yelling "shoot him" when Negan briefly pointed his gun at him this episode. And take a fucking bath now, Pussy. 

Amen to your thoughts on Carol. Can't stand her either anymore.

[Timetoread]

20 minutes ago, Ruprecht said:

I really hate story telling that makes characters stupid or changes how they behave in order to drive the plot. I loved the evolution of Carol from battered housewife to the strong and crafty woman and fighter that she was. Then they had to go and make her feel  guilty about killing bad people so she wouldn't be a resource to protect Alexandria. This is a woman famous for taking out a psychotic child ("look at the flowers") and threatening to leave another one tied to a tree for walkers to eat. She singlehandedly saved Rick and crew from Terminus. Making her have a guilty conscience thanks to Morgan is dumb and contrived.

I guess I am alone in this but I never saw Carol the way people seem to.  She ALWAYS seemed damaged and afraid.  She became stronger and crafty, no doubt.  But she was also shady, a liar, self absorbed and murderous.   She had to kill the psychotic child because, in her quest to make up for not raising Sophia to fight for her life, she missed ALL the markers that there was something seriously wrong with that child - even when the child's sister tried to tell her.  She taught a psycho how to kill others and the psycho killed her own sister.  Carol killed those people at the prison claiming to try to stop the virus but really to prove to herself that she could go there if need be (a la Shane, with the same results).  Yes she saved everyone in Terminus, but she still wanted to get away from them - she wasn't proud.  And her threatening of Sam made me sick to my stomach.  How many kids have died on her watch?

I've just always thought that the story of Carol was how broken she is.  She thought that becoming strong, fighting and killing without conscience, would make her better.   But it hasn't because the weakness was always inside her.  She's always been a battered woman, but she herself was the abuser.  And the more she killed in the pursuit of being strong, the more she realized she didn't like it.  She is NOT a warrior by nature, but she is a survivor.  What needs to change is how she categorizes these words. 

[Timetoread]

25 minutes ago, HighMaintenance said:

Rick's just NOW telling Michonne about his bff Shane?  About Judith's paternity?  The secret that was NO secret... especially to the viewers?

There is a big difference between hearing about Shane as gossip and hearing it from Rick.  He doesn't discuss Shane with those people.  I believe his last words on the subject were "I killed my best friend for you people! This is no longer a democracy!" This was Rick's story to tell and tell from the heart to the one he is closest to.  The meaning was in him saying it out loud.  That one of the people he loves the most on this earth has the combined face of the deceased two that he loved (and still loves) and who hurt him the most.

[ChipBach]

2 hours ago, Yakimaman said:

You can't take a .44 mag case (which it is) and turn it into a 9mm (which is what the gun she found is chambered for).  The whole premise of "making bullets" is ridiculous.  Can't be done.  

Yep.  Being a little gun-geeky, I was always shouting at the TV for the crew to pick up their spent casings.  You can reload a bullet, you'd need a factory (or a free pass to WestWorld) to make bullets from scratch.  They should have trash cans full of used brass...

[JackONeill]

I agree with everyone's comments. Yea, that sure is a broad statement, but with this show -- and this episode -- I think it's warranted.

One thing, and maybe I missed it above. I did see one indication, just a glimmer really, that things will be righting themselves soon. (Although with this show that can take two seasons, since conciseness is not in the grasp of these writers.)

When Negan's pudgy henchman was playing balloon-keep-away with Enid and stroking her cheek, I saw a glimmer in Rick's eyes (and Carl's) of the old "rip-the-person's-throat" out.

I do believe it'll happen (retribution), but let's be honest -- it ain't going to happen this season. We have an entire season of watching our favorite characters eating dog food, and polishing the candle stick for Negan's return visit. There'll be a giant battle at the end of this season. People will be shot. But who? Well, stay tuned for next season.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

He kept saying to bring him something "interesting". I mean, that's so subjective. They might try to give him Mrs. Needlemeyers pasta maker, but that might not interest him at all. How about a giant tiger?

Seriously. I was wracking my brains during the show to distract myself from the tedium, and I couldn't come up with anything. A giant tiger - jackpot. There's no one who wouldn't find that interesting, right? Negan might even let Rick hold Lucille a little longer.

12 minutes ago, Nowhere said:

I am so annoyed with Darryl right now for this very reason. I hate watching him walk around in his pj's acting like a cranky 3 year old. I get that he was kept in a room and fed dog food but these people have been through a lot.

Can't stand him anymore, and it started well before this. His mute, hangdog demeanor is just irritating. And were we supposed to be horrified and feel sorry for him eating the dog food? This is a guy who ate actual dogs.

[mmecorday]

Quote

I am not going to rage quit, but for the love of Pete WHY was this 90 minutes? Of all the episodes...this one? Really? Seriously? If I recall Negan came to get the guns and medicine in the beginning and was a dick about it, and took the guns and medicine in the end and and was a dick about it. And talked the whole....time...between. "Hahaha I'm a dick. Hold my bat. Here's Daryl. Here's a trite maxim I made up right now to further demonstrate my utter domination. Get it?  If you don't I'll say it 47 more times. Here's another. Hey boo, check these dope nursery rhymes. Are you scared of me? You should be scared of me. Because I killed your peeps. Blah blah blah blah blah blah." MAKE IT STOP.

THIS has all the perfection of a Michelangelo sculpture. Bravo!

[Wryly]

I loved Father Gabriel spooking Negan. "Ho-ly crap! You are creepy as shit, sneaking up on me, wearin' that collar with that freaky ass smile." You need to do this WAY more often when Negan is around, Gabriel. You interrupted his flow. You are a priceless resource, Gabriel. You need to be creepin' around in your clerical collar all the time, standing behind Negan with a creepy smile.

[Kim0820]

2 hours ago, nachomama said:

The minute they got back to Alexandria they should have had a sit down and started stashing medicine, food, etc. Obviously Negan was going to know they had the guns they took from him but yes, second set of books for sure.

If they did much the same treatment with Gregory or whoever the leader guy is over in Hilltop why isn't Jesus on the top of Negan's list for "admired" fighters? He was like Houdini with Rick and Darryl and seemed almost playful but if he'd had the fear of god installed in him the way CDB has then he wouldn't have messed around, get in, get the truck, no showing off. He doesn't appear to have been through the Darryl or Dwight mindfuck treatment. He would be on Negan's list "to break" or "to groom".

 

It would be more believable if Negan left armed people there in ASZ.  

Also I thought the Hilltop people were beholden to Negan too.  Does he consider them broken ?  Rick is just his new toy?  The Hilltop people must have experienced this originally.  Or does Negan still go there to taunt and torture them too?  

[mmecorday]

I'm sure there are times when Negan, in a moment of quiet reflection, says to himself: "And people said that memorizing all of Andrew Dice Clay's standup material was a complete waste of time. They didn't know shit."

[AngelaHunter]

6 minutes ago, Kim0820 said:

Or does Negan still go there to taunt and torture them too?

Yeah, and if they don't come up with enough interesting shit to give him, he'll taunt them a second time.

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

Negan having little to no screen time?? He's been hogging up too much screen time. If the general consensus around here is that he talks too much in all the episodes that he's been in then yeah he's had a lot of screen time. He's been in 4 episodes and 3 out of 4 episodes this season. I have to disagree about Rick getting less as well.

I believe the person was saying that nobody BUT Neegan has screen time; as in, Neegan is getting it all.

[Ocean Chick]

I thought I remembered Michonne being around in the background during some discussion of Judith's parentage at some point, so the fact that Rick thinks she's really Shane's child shouldn't be a revelation to her.  Nor do I think she really cares whose DNA made her.  She's Carl's sister and that's good enough for her.  And did we really learn anything new this episode?  Or move the story forward at all?  Why did we need 90 minutes for more misery porn?  I guess TPTB think they really need to get their money's worth out of JDM while they have him.  The rest of the cast will have plenty of time for days off and holidays this season, as it seems it's going to be All Negan, All The Time.

[Iguessnot]

8 hours ago, candall said:

 

 

He surrendered Michonne's high powered rifle, that Negan didn't even know about.  And later, he asked Michonne if she'd hidden any guns, as he looked at her in a very intense way.  She hesitated and said no, but that was probably to demonstrate her instinct that she suddenly couldn't trust Broken Rick enough to automatically tell him the truth.

 

 

I think he did it because the stag was shot. Neegan wouldn't have overlooked his manner of death and there would have been hell to pay.