S07.E07: You'll Never Ever Get a Chicken in Your Whole Entire Life

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Fiona learns that owning a laundromat is costlier than expected. Frank helps Liam get into a plush new school after his old one is permanently shut down. Meanwhile, Debbie cleans up her act and grows closer to Neil.

Promo:

 

Clips:

 

[40Love]

My goodness...0Debbie is so unpleasant. Is Lip falling in love? I hope so! Fiona, Fiona, Fiona. SMDH!

[Chas411]

I like Sierra a lot more then any of his previous loves and if it means we never have to see Mandy pop up again then I'm all for it.

[Armchair Critic]

I thought Lip's girlfriend was black but her son and brother aren't. I can't stand Debs anymore.

[evethegreat]

I did like how Debbie passed the GED easily. Reminded me of when she wasn't an idiot.

[dangwoodchucks]

5 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I thought Lip's girlfriend was black but her son and brother aren't. I can't stand Debs anymore.

I thought Sierra was mixed. The fact she in no way resembles her brother I chalk up to poor casting in the same way Franny looks in no way half Hispanic.

Yes Fiona, that's how you build your empire and get ahead, "borrow" money from someone else because you didn't do your homework beforehand. She's also stealing time if she's at the laundromat when she's supposed to be working at Patsy's. I would have gotten additional quotes for replacing the washers and having the gas repairs done.

The sooner Trevor is off my screen the better. That comment he made to Lip about Ian, somewhere along the lines of 'this one is beginning to catch on, maybe he can explain it to you', was condescending and that smugness after Ian agreed to bottom was irritating. I can understand a female who wants to be a male to be with females, but a female who wants to be a gay male to fuck guys with a strap on just seems pointless. He could have done that as a female.

That poor little dog. I don't know what's worse, being homeless on the street or being neglected in a house where no one feeds you all day or lets you out to go poo. Maybe it's just time constraints, but we never saw Lip being aware the dog was gone or making any effort to go check on it during the day, nor did we see Fiona finding out that Liam's school was closed and what he went through the first day of school. Either they're uncaring assholes or it's incomplete writing. Could be both.

[kathe5133]

Yeah, this one was weird.  How do you not know that the neighborhood school has closed?  How do you not know that your little brother is hanging out with Frank and going to private school?  Ok, you buy a Laundromat with no clue about even needing to have a clue and then you steal from your employer to cover it... (not to mention the "time stealing").   There are people in this world who "can't get out of their own way".  I know some.  But, they know about where they live and what's going on, they sort of keep track of their 6 year old kids, they don't steal, and they don't run to the bank and get loans cause some crazy cat lady........

Lip took taking care of the dog seriously enough to not drop it at the pound on his way home, and then doesn't notice it's gone?  Although I LOL'd at Fiona's double take when the dog ran past her!   And Svetlana.  Did she murder what's his name or not?  Why don't they just ask her? 

I usually don't like to accuse any TV writers of being sloppy, because, well they are writing this show and I'm posting on Previously TV, so,  but, I don't know what else to call it.  It's sloppy. 

[Dee]

So Frank commits arson on a house full of people, in broad daylight, in the middle of a gentrified neighborhood, and NOTHING ever comes of it?

[Tatum]

1 hour ago, dangwoodchucks said:

I thought Sierra was mixed. The fact she in no way resembles her brother I chalk up to poor casting in the same way Franny looks in no way half Hispanic.

 

You're probably right about poor casting. Not sure if it will ever be part of the storyline but the actress that plays Sierra is mixed- her father is white (Matthew Modine) and her mother is biracial- black and Latina.

[iMonrey]

I wish Fiona had stuck to her gut and backed out of the deal. She's stealing from the diner to pay for repairs, I don't see that ending well.

This has got to be the weakest season ever. I know the show has gotten progressively weaker the past few seasons but it's official now, they're fresh out of ideas.  There's nothing going on right now I find engaging.

This whole thing with Frank and the homeless people just went nowhere, and then out of the blue he's on a crusade to close down a private school? Really? Are we supposed to believe he gives a shit where Liam goes to school?

I really hate this whole Trevor and Ian thing. The whole thing feels very after-school special. Ever scene they're in feels instructional, like the show suddenly has an agenda to educate us about the transgender life. Shameless is not a show that should be didactic. This scene where Lip says all the wrong things and Trevor corrects him was just condescending. And every scene between Trevor and Ian feels that way to me, like he's there to teach us all about transgender folks.

They need to resolve this fight between Fiona and Vee because without them as best friends, Kev and Vee feel totally disconnected from the rest of the show. I think they kind of struggled to keep Svetlana relevant after Mickey left the show and they've made too many wrong turns with her.

[LuciaMia]

I guess the incoming mail for the Gallagher household disappears down a black hole somewhere. Few seasons back Lip never got his application for renewing his grant money. And now Fiona never gets the notice that the school is closing. (And we're also  to believe that such an event isn't mentioned by anybody else in the neighborhood?)

Other annoying things about this one. Frank takes the time to usher Liam around, trying to find where he's supposed to go. But then when he drops him off at the hell-hole of a school and watches him get accosted by all those kids, he just walks away!

So are we supposed to believe the principal of that private school is letting Liam in for free cause it will boost their diversity-quotient?

And forgot to add: I think Ive had a lifetimes supply of Kev & Ve & Svetlana's combined sex life. As somebody already said, bring Fiona and Ve back together.

[sheetmoss]

2 hours ago, Tatum said:

You're probably right about poor casting. Not sure if it will ever be part of the storyline but the actress that plays Sierra is mixed- her father is white (Matthew Modine) and her mother is biracial- black and Latina.

I have no issues with not looking similar  - they may not have the same mom or dad.

[40Love]

3 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

I usually don't like to accuse any TV writers of being sloppy, because, well they are writing this show and I'm posting on Previously TV, so,  but, I don't know what else to call it.  It's sloppy. 

Agreed! It takes a lot for me to criticize the writing of a show because I feel like the story doesn't always have to go the way I think it should. I pretty much go with the flow. But, come on!

• Fiona got a $80,000 loan in what seemed like one day; despite her low income and apparent lack of established credit.
  • Isn't she legally responsible for at least 3 minors?
• Fiona never did an inspection on the property... or hell even a walk-through of the laundromat before buying.
  • Maybe she would have smelled the gas herself if she had
• Fiona has no idea how much money the laundromat makes or loses in a month; how does she even know who to pay.

Don't even get me started on Vee, Kev and Svet. It's like there's not script at all for them, just situations... that change from moment to moment based on what outrageous things the actors come up with off the top of their heads. It's like one big giant and elaborate Improv sketch where the writers gave the 3 actors the following instructions: "Okay, next scene big, mean looking Russian guy with a lot of tattoos shows up at the bar. He can't speak English. Go!"

The only bright spot for me is little Frannie! That kids is a hellva actress. Laughed right on cue! :-) 

[sazzat]

It's sloppy and it just doesn't seem like things mean much this season. I guess they have five episodes to go, but I feel like everything is some kind of caper and there's not much emotional payoff.

I felt Ian/Trevor were better this week, if only because they allowed them to joke together and because Trevor is shown to be willing to compromise rather than have Ian do all the compromising.  I was afraid they were building to the latter. I could still do without really obvious vocabulary lessons. I am also embarrassed for Shameless that they can't bring themselves to show gay sex. A dick, even a silicone dick, in a sexual context seems to be a step too far for this show.

I am increasingly worried by Mickey's return; knowing about it makes it difficult to enjoy watching Ian now, because I can't imagine a scenario where they bring him back without completely screwing up someone's characterization.

I can't even with Kev, Vee, and Svetlana. Or with Fiona. She just would not drop 80k on a business with no idea about what condition it's in or how to run it. It's not only that she couldn't in the time frame of the show, it's also that she just would not.

[Tatum]

56 minutes ago, sheetmoss said:

I have no issues with not looking similar  - they may not have the same mom or dad.

Yeah, but I don't think it's an issue of them intentionally looking for dissimilar actors with the intention of showing different parentage, or adoption, etc. I think they just really don't consider it a priority when casting people who are supposed to be related. And really, considering the long line of implausible and inconsistent storylines that have plagued this show since season 2, it's probably a minor nitpick.

[Adultosaurus]

7 hours ago, dangwoodchucks said:

I can understand a female who wants to be a male to be with females, but a female who wants to be a gay male to fuck guys with a strap on just seems pointless. He could have done that as a female.

You need to research transgender a tiny bit more.

[candall]

Hi, everyone.  I just started watching this show.  The first episode I saw was Frank taking over the Open House, but there was a mini-marathon this weekend, so now I've seen all the episodes from this season.

It's SO interesting reading all the comments that refer to old relationships and various backstories.  (Fiona and Debbie were both pregnant and Fiona terminated?  WOW.)

A couple of my impressions, as a newbie:

 

I was whole-heartedly in favor of Fiona laying down the law that the responsibility was going to be distributed more evenly.  Someone's been in a fight, someone's experiencing a manic episode, someone got busted shoplifting . . . 911 Fiona!!

I thought the uncashed $80k check (thumbtacked to a cork board in a public place?!?) was going to be "the saving of Fiona."  The former owner is mentally incompetent, the place is falling apart, Fiona has zero operating money and has resorted to stealing . . . grab that check and Praise The Lord.

Wait, what?  Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory.  So how am I supposed to see Fiona?  I thought she was a good person, the heart of the show, whose intelligence and ambition had been too long suppressed--but now she seems more like an impulsive idiot. 

 

Oh well, I won't run through the rest of the characters, except to say that I think it's amazing Vee used to be a regular person (as Fiona's BFF and sounding board, apparently.)  Both Kev and Vee are like OTT cartoon characters from a different show.  The babies aren't here, the Russian must be selling them!  If he was on top, that sounds like rape to me!  He's gone, it's muuuuuuurder!

 

Weird show, but I immediately wanted to know what was going to happen to everyone next (except for "the thrupple" and Frank.  William H. Macy playing Frank only helped for about five minutes.)

[dangwoodchucks]

7 hours ago, Tatum said:

You're probably right about poor casting. Not sure if it will ever be part of the storyline but the actress that plays Sierra is mixed- her father is white (Matthew Modine) and her mother is biracial- black and Latina.

Wow, I didn't know she was Pvt Joker's daughter.

So is Fiona going to write checks from Etta's account to pay for the repairs, since it has all that money in it now? I wonder if she'll forge her signature or have Etta sign them.

[Adeejay]

8 hours ago, Tatum said:

Not sure if it will ever be part of the storyline but the actress that plays Sierra is mixed- her father is white (Matthew Modine) and her mother is biracial- black and Latina.

That is interesting, because the guy playing her baby daddy is Chet Hanks, son of Tom. 

[Happytobehere]

When Frank is the only worthwhile Gallagher in the episode, then you know that family ain't shit.

Fiona is both stupid and a low-life criminal -- Keep earning your family name

Kevin and Vee have been turned into utter morons to prop a Russian whore, yeah America.

Please get Liam away from these awful people while he is still salvageable.

[Adultosaurus]

29 minutes ago, Adeejay said:

That is interesting, because the guy playing her baby daddy is Chet Hanks, son of Tom. 

How is that interesting based on her being biracial?  I actually doubt it will ever be brought up, they don't tend to dwell on the backstories of secondaries.

[cakes1975]

2 hours ago, Adultosaurus said:

How is that interesting based on her being biracial?  I actually doubt it will ever be brought up, they don't tend to dwell on the backstories of secondaries.

I think Adeejay was writing about them both being children of actors.

[CarolMK]

I was surprised to learn that the actor playing Trevor is only 20 years old. Also, it struck me when I saw him in the bed without his shirt on and the scars on his chest, it really hit home that he once was female. I'd never have guessed he wasn't male his entire life.

Doesn't surprise me that Fiona took that money for herself or that Frank burned down the house. Probably nothing will come of either event.

I enjoyed seeing Debbie and her boyfriend in the tub but I wonder if they will end up getting married.

Nice to see Liam with a storyline and some actual lines for a change. Go Liam!

The bedroom scene with Vee, Kevin and Svetlana was kind of strange. I wonder how the actors got through that scene without cracking up.

[Gulftastic]

If Franks ends up banging that principal of that private school, my eyes will roll so much I'll look like a slot machine. I don't know if it's on the cards, but they portray Frank as being so irresistible, it's where I expected the scene in her office to ge.

[wallofsound]

Was Lip's professor played by a completely different actor in this episode?   It's like someone else was mimicking that guy's speech patterns, but facially he looked totally different.    

[whiporee]

11 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

When Frank is the only worthwhile Gallagher in the episode, then you know that family ain't shit.

Fiona is both stupid and a low-life criminal -- Keep earning your family name

Kevin and Vee have been turned into utter morons to prop a Russian whore, yeah America.

Please get Liam away from these awful people while he is still salvageable.

Interesting take. I thought everyone behaved rather decently here. Fiona could have screwed Etta to a larger level than she did. Lip was flat-out kind to Sierra. Frank showed why they all have  tough time completely dismissing him -- because sometimes his crazy helps things work out, and than sometimes over-the-top narcissistic self-importance can be a good thing. 

I was glad to see Fiona take the chance. Not so glad she stole the money -- I with they'd get the mechanics of the show better, because my guess is the place takes in at least a few hundred in cash a day -- and she should have checked her revenue before she stole, but plot-wise it's a better for her to have taken the risk. 

The whole Svet storyline, I've decided, is just window dressing -- stopgaps to fill holes. i do think it's interesting that Svet is the one servicing both of them, though. Maybe they just didn't show the reciprocations. 

Don't care about Ian and Trevor. 

[Dee]

In what world does Fiona not do even do a cursory inspection of the laundromat?

She just got back the house precisely because of the previous owners lack of due diligence, and she still decides to invest nearly a hundred grand into a potential money pit on a whim?

[Tikichick]

So frustrated with the writing.  Not a single indication it comes from any notion of motivation of the characters as actual human beings living these lives -- it's all shuffling of playing pieces around on the board in absurd ways.

I don't get what's so unusual about the ethnicity and look of the actress playing Sierra in the context of this show.  How many seasons has it been since they explained Liam as 100-percent Gallagher?

Karl and Liam have been the payoffs for me this season.  Ironically both are the siblings I would have thought had the darkest futures may prove to be on the path to potential quicker than the older ones who've wasted plenty of opportunities at moving up.

[Empress1]

8 hours ago, Gulftastic said:

If Franks ends up banging that principal of that private school, my eyes will roll so much I'll look like a slot machine. I don't know if it's on the cards, but they portray Frank as being so irresistible, it's where I expected the scene in her office to ge.

Me too, which is such bullshit. Frank looks like he smells like last week, yet he is constantly getting laid. When the head of school showed him the scar on her knee I was like "No she is not ..."

Edited November 15, 2016 by Empress1

[LuciaMia]

Quote

is Chet Hanks, son of Tom

At first I thought you meant Colin and could only think "Wow, he's changed!"

Quote

 can you tell me why I'm still hanging in here?

I know where you're coming from. But in spite of the exasperation with the story lines, I find I really like these characters and keep wanting to root for them and see what happens to them.

It looks like all of the Gallagher kids have kept up some kind o f relationship or stood up for Frank until he finally goes one step to far. At the beginning of the series Fiona and Lip were already fed up with him. Debbie was his defender for a while; and was  profoundly upset when he disappeared. Carl sheltered Frank when he was dying from cirrhosis and even was willing to give him part of his own liver in a transplant. But by the time of Fiona's wrecked wedding, they were done with him too and joined in pitching him into Lake Michigan.  I wonder what its gonna take to finally make Liam turn against him?

[NorthstarATL]

Nice to see Liam getting some focus. Fiona went to prison for neglecting him; no way a real older sister wouldn't at LEAST have tailed him, not to mention known about the school closing.

I could buy that we didn't SEE Fiona research the laundromat because watching people do research makes for somewhat boring TV. Buying that she actually did not DO any research is more character assassination IMO. In the past she made errors due to juggling too many things, what with the siblings and boyfriends and jobs. Now, apparently, she can no longer handle doing ONE thing.

Debbie is annoying.

Not sure about Lip getting back into school. Most schools would not expunge his record.

Still not particularly pleased with Ian's storyline. I maintain that he bottomed for Caleb. Maybe Caleb had a tiny member, and it didn't count? Still, guilting someone into doing something they don't want to do seems wrong. And why can't "No" mean "No"? The reluctance followed by pain followed by sounds of enjoyment was really problematic.

 I don't CARE whether Svetlana killed her husband/father. And neither should Kev or Vee. We have marriage equality now, BTW. The three should sue to have their marriage recognized. Next season.

[Dee]

56 minutes ago, LuciaMia said:

It looks like all of the Gallagher kids have kept up some kind o f relationship or stood up for Frank until he finally goes one step to far. At the beginning of the series Fiona and Lip were already fed up with him. Debbie was his defender for a while; and was  profoundly upset when he disappeared. Carl sheltered Frank when he was dying from cirrhosis and even was willing to give him part of his own liver in a transplant. But by the time of Fiona's wrecked wedding, they were done with him too and joined in pitching him into Lake Michigan.  I wonder what its gonna take to finally make Liam turn against him?

You can pinpoint when Debbie gave up on Frank. Once he drunkenly destroyed her log cabin, she was through with him (until she got pregnant).

The show completely botched Carl and Frank's split, which had been building for the better part of two seasons. Frank turning on Carl should've been a huge moment, but the writers nixed the emotional payoff for abhorrent racism and unnecessary celeb cameos.

Frank began enlisting poor Liam into service late last season. He's smart enough not to fully trust his Dad, but with all his siblings otherwise occupied, he's increasingly become vulnerable to Frank's influence.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Dee

[iMonrey]

Quote

Please get Liam away from these awful people while he is still salvageable.

Did they get a new Liam? I swear this was the first episode where he ever spoke more than a couple of words.

If I were being generous (which is more than this show deserves) I'd guess maybe Liam telling Frank he needed him was what motivated Frank to rail against the private school, but it didn't feel the least bit earned based on just a few words. There was nothing in this for Frank, and Frank doesn't do anything for anyone if there's not something in it for himself - not even his kids.

Quote

So frustrated with the writing.  Not a single indication it comes from any notion of motivation of the characters as actual human beings living these lives -- it's all shuffling of playing pieces around on the board in absurd ways.

I think Fiona's recent actions are acceptably in character for her, she has always been self destructive. So while it's frustrating (and tiresome) seeing her steal money to pay for repairs to this ill-advised scheme of hers, it's still in character.

I have no idea what's going on with Lip, though, and the whole thing with Ian doesn't feel organic or even interesting either.

[jww]

Actually Debbie is not old enough to do any of the things she did in this episode. What is she  15, 16?  From the GED  home page “In Illinois, the minimum age required to take the GED® test without restriction is 18 years old.  Seventeen year olds are allowed to test but, they must provide a withdrawal letter from the last school attended.

In Illinois, you can be 16 and take the GED® test if you have the following exception:

In Illinois, a 16-year-old test-taker must be enrolled in the Lincoln’s challenge program.”  The four part test cost $120.

Also in Illinois you have to be 18 to dropout, 17 with guardian’s consent.

All the Gallaghers are amazing test takers, no studying necessary : SAT, EMT and now GED.

In Chicago is emergency ambulance service privatized? In Austin we have private ambulance services but they only do non-emergency transport.

Ian seems to work for a private firm not city fire department/civil service.

When I was growing up in the 50/60s emergency ambulance services was provided by funeral homes who hoped to get your business if things did not work out.

[Ohgeez]

5 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

 

Still not particularly pleased with Ian's storyline. I maintain that he bottomed for Caleb. Maybe Caleb had a tiny member, and it didn't count? Still, guilting someone into doing something they don't want to do seems wrong. And why can't "No" mean "No"? The reluctance followed by pain followed by sounds of enjoyment was really problematic.

 

Thank you. It has been driving me NUTS that they are acting like Ian hasn't been a bottom. He was for Mickey too. And really Shameless, gay man sex is where you draw the line? All the stuff this show does they go dark for that.

[Dee]

6 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

I maintain that he bottomed for Caleb.

Based on what?

1 hour ago, Ohgeez said:

He was for Mickey too.

Ian never bottomed for Mickey.

In all of their sexual encounters, he was the top.

[whiporee]

10 hours ago, tvaddict44 said:

Some of you who have been with this show from the beginning and still enjoy it, can you tell me why I'm still hanging in here?  I'm serious - it's strange how I have to see this family through to the end, but they are the sorriest bunch of humanity I've ever seen on TV.  I always liked Fiona until she became so strident, Debbie until she became so mean and bossy, and the idea that Carl has become the most admirable of all is just unbelievable.  Frank makes my skin crawl.  Little Liam is the only bright spot left - he clearly recovered from the cocaine overdose several seasons ago when Fiona was careless.  Why can't I quit???

I think that even with it's warts, it's still in the top 10 percent of TV dramas, and frankly I find it hard to think of more than one or two that are better. Maybe GOT, maybe This is Us .. but it's a lot better and more nuanced than Madame Secretary or any of the NCISes, or The Blacklist or just about anything broadcast I can name (Masters of Sex? Westworld is pretty, but I fall asleep every time I watch it the first time).  It takes characters you don't usually see -- from a socio-economic and societal standpoint -- and makes them multi-dimensional. Even when we find their actions objectionable -- or even reprehensible -- they are more and better developed than almost any others on TV. Even shows like Scandal or How to Get Away with Murder -- shows that get a lot of acclaim -- their characters don't have nearly the depth of Shameless characters. I'd even put them up against FNL in terms of us getting to know the people on the screen. Eric and Tami were better people, but I don't know we knew them any better than we know the Gallaghers. 

And while it could be better -- lots of times it could be better -- I look forward to it. Not like a trainwreck or hate watching, but because I'm interested in seeing where these characters who don't operate in straight lines or expected norms go. That's interesting and fun for me to see. It's a lot better than Once Upon a Time, and I'm running out of other shows to compare it to. It ain't perfect, but IMO it's better than almost anything else on TV, so maybe that's why you stick around. Even though it never does what you want it to do, it still does what it does better than most. 

Plus, boobs.  

[Nascar]

Fiona's buying a laundromat in a neighborhood that is becoming upscale.  Wealthy people don't take their wash out.  They have machines in their buildings or use a service.  She's dumber than a broken washing machine.

[iMonrey]

Oh, I don't know about that part Nascar. There's bound to be a lot of city dwellers and apartment dwellers who do not have their own laundry facilities right in their homes. Mind you - it was still a stupid idea to buy this place without knowing anything about it, but a laundromat could still be profitable in that area. Even in a gentrified/upscale area there are still going to be lofts and converted stores that don't have laundry facilities.

[LuciaMia]

Quote

They have machines in their buildings or use a service

Well, she could conceivably do that as well. I was using a local laundromats pick-up and delivery service for a while. But wasn't she more interested in turning it into some kind of meet-up place?

[stagmania]

On 11/14/2016 at 4:13 PM, sazzat said:

I am increasingly worried by Mickey's return; knowing about it makes it difficult to enjoy watching Ian now, because I can't imagine a scenario where they bring him back without completely screwing up someone's characterization.

Ian has been unrecognizable for a couple seasons now and Mickey was destroyed on his way out, so I don't think there's really any characterization left to ruin. Even if it's bad (it will be), the damage was already done long ago. 

On 11/15/2016 at 7:08 PM, Ohgeez said:

Thank you. It has been driving me NUTS that they are acting like Ian hasn't been a bottom. He was for Mickey too. And really Shameless, gay man sex is where you draw the line? All the stuff this show does they go dark for that.

They've never been willing to show gay sex. Ian and Mickey were involved for 5 years, never had a real sex scene and only kissed on screen twice. The show actually got a lot of backlash for that, which I assume is why they tried to show more with Caleb.

I've fallen behind on the show and popped in here to see if it was worth catching up. I'm thinking no.

[BunnyBlueBrown]

On 11/15/2016 at 7:37 PM, whiporee said:

I think that even with it's warts, it's still in the top 10 percent of TV dramas, and frankly I find it hard to think of more than one or two that are better. Maybe GOT, maybe This is Us .. but it's a lot better and more nuanced than Madame Secretary or any of the NCISes, or The Blacklist or just about anything broadcast I can name (Masters of Sex? Westworld is pretty, but I fall asleep every time I watch it the first time).  It takes characters you don't usually see -- from a socio-economic and societal standpoint -- and makes them multi-dimensional. Even when we find their actions objectionable -- or even reprehensible -- they are more and better developed than almost any others on TV. Even shows like Scandal or How to Get Away with Murder -- shows that get a lot of acclaim -- their characters don't have nearly the depth of Shameless characters. I'd even put them up against FNL in terms of us getting to know the people on the screen. Eric and Tami were better people, but I don't know we knew them any better than we know the Gallaghers. 

And while it could be better -- lots of times it could be better -- I look forward to it. Not like a trainwreck or hate watching, but because I'm interested in seeing where these characters who don't operate in straight lines or expected norms go. That's interesting and fun for me to see. It's a lot better than Once Upon a Time, and I'm running out of other shows to compare it to. It ain't perfect, but IMO it's better than almost anything else on TV, so maybe that's why you stick around. Even though it never does what you want it to do, it still does what it does better than most. 

Plus, boobs.  

This.

[For Cereals]

On 11/15/2016 at 0:12 PM, iMonrey said:

Did they get a new Liam? I swear this was the first episode where he ever spoke more than a couple of words.

I think this is second Liam...this is the first time he's had any major lines.  Kind of like New Lilly on Modern Family, I thought it was better when he didn't speak.  Cute kids, but not the best actors.

[Muffyn]

On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:36 AM, NorthstarATL said:

Still not particularly pleased with Ian's storyline. I maintain that he bottomed for Caleb. Maybe Caleb had a tiny member, and it didn't count? Still, guilting someone into doing something they don't want to do seems wrong. And why can't "No" mean "No"? The reluctance followed by pain followed by sounds of enjoyment was really problematic.

There are so many issues with this story line.  As you said, no means no.  It doesn't mean guilting your partner into doing something they don't want to do.  The scene itself made  no sense if they were trying for a particularly enjoyable sexual experience.  Bend over, I'll be sticking this in with no warm up isn't typically the best plan.  But the thing that bothered me most was pretending the only way gay men have sex is anal.  That conceit set up this ludicrous situation.  Two gay men, regardless of whether one is transgender and one is cisgender, should be able to consider sex beyond just "I want to stick my dick in you!"; "No, I want to stick my dick in you!"