S03.E07: Call It Mother's Intuition

[Artsda]

Boo Wes is alive. 

Loved Frank showing up with Laurel's with the "really?" I had the same reaction.  Can't take that relationship seriously.

[Keepitmoving]

8 minutes ago, Artsda said:

Boo Wes is alive. 

Loved Frank showing up with Laurel's with the "really?" I had the same reaction.  Can't take that relationship seriously.

I can't buy the whole love stuff either but I might be getting confused with all the flash forwarding and backward, so the timing that has gone buy, for Laurel to be confessing love for Wes seems unreal to me. Because I feel I've watched her for episodes with her panties in a bunch trying to find Frank for herself, worried about Frank, Frank, Frank Frank....  I did buy her getting close to Wes as a friend with attraction but her heart still always seemed to be with Frank up to two episodes ago. I mean that's what she's been about, I more buy Wes, because I think I've watched him get more into her for some time now than vice versa. I mean, I felt and bought her fall for Frank, what's going on with Wes, something's missing in the build up to this "love.".

Edited November 4, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[stuckin60s]

This episode also ended with Frank coming to Laurel at the end and asking to stay. We do t know what happened there

[morgankobi]

Not only is the "her" Wes is ratting on secret, we also don't know which of the number of things Wes might be asking immunity for. What crime would involve just Wes and Annalise? (Since neither he, nor the police officers, seem to be talking about anyone else.) 

[Panopticon]

8 hours ago, skotnikov said:

It's probably the budget issue. 

This show has never looked like it has budget issues, especially when it comes to wardrobe. They could get full outfits for both cops for less than the price of one of Asher's Burberry shirts.

[Tiger]

1 hour ago, stuckin60s said:

I think Oliver will regret going to Connor. He was drunk,  feelings hurt, in need of human contact. That will make it even harder for Connie to be around him

The previews showed Connor ugly crying.

[J.D.]

23 minutes ago, Tiger said:

The previews showed Connor ugly crying.

There's no such thing.  ;P

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, ribboninthesky said:

 

Whenever the weekly cases tie into interpersonal themes between Annalise & Co. plus the Keating Five, it just seems to make for a more interesting episode. Last night's exploration of motherhood in all its iterations really worked because of the parallels Simon picked up on immediately. And in spite of our not-so-Fab 5 getting pilloried as ungrateful spoiled brats during the Keating roast, I LOVED watching them form like Voltron the minute it seemed as if Simon was crossing the line with a little too much venom towards Annalise. Hallmarks of a real familial bond no matter the dysfunction. "I may be furious with you and will do battle. But if an outsider tries it, better square up!"

 

Perfect description of the K5 and their relationship with Annalise.

18 hours ago, sisterspoon said:

What surprised me is that Oliver had not told his prospective boyfriend that he was positive.  

He tried to tell him on the first date when they were kissing outside his apartment. I agree he should have told him before they were in bed making out shirtless, but I totally understand how difficult something like that would be to divulge. I do like the background info that Oliver got checked in with his doctor before date #3 (aka the sex date).

18 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

Did Wes really say he's wanted to be with Laurel since the first day of class?  What about his insta-lurveeee! for mopey girl Rebecca?  Wasn't he pining for her then?  So he was insta-in-love with 2 girls?  Sigh.  

I agree with the poster who said Wes could have had a crush on her, deemed her out of his league and got on with his life. I never got the Rebecca attraction but I felt initially it was friendship not romance between them.

18 hours ago, PBGamer89 said:

I mean they can't kill off Connor after tonight. I mean, for Oliver to admit he misses him and realized that Connor accepted him for all he is was really touching.

They make such a good and realistic gay couple and I'd be disappointed and sad if they cut that short by killing Connor.

I don't think a Keating 5 member dies, because Connor is the only one left of the 5 to not be shown and if it had been stated a K5 member dies, now it's very anticlimatic.

Have they started shooting 3B yet? Cause Jack Falahee is apparently at the Mayan Ruins now. Odd for him to be so far away on vacation if they're shooting.

I disliked their reunion. I don't think they have truly reconciled, otherwise why pretend nothing happened when Micheala & Asher came home?  I think instead of dealing with their issues they are going to stay apart but still sleep together. Instead i'd have loved to have seen them talking and working on their issues. Oliver admitted when they broke up that the sex between them was always good. That's not the part of the relationship that needs the work.

As for who's under the sheet, I still think it's Frank, but I could see an argument for all Nate or Connor, even though I think Connor is very unlikely. There's just too much storyline to get out of Coliver.

Thomas may be cute, but it was rude of him to dig around in Oliver's drawers. I don't care if you are looking for lube & condoms. (I also agree it was rude of Coliver to have sex in Micheala's bed. Please tell me they at least changed the sheets. *NASTY*).  Nice bit of irony with Oliver telling Micheala that he doesn't like when guys bring him flowers. It was a nice touch back to season 1 when Connor bought him flowers to make up for cheating on him and was greeted at the door by spatula guy.

I love when Bonnie has these moments of clarity like she did with Frank. Her calling him out about going to see Laurel first was golden.

My crack pot theory for this week: I think Atwood is the rat. The "her" Wes is referring to is Atwood, not Annaalise. I think he got suspicious after seeing Nate all suited up and started snooping around. Whether Wes is working alone or with Annalise and or Frank, the target is Atwood.

[KaveDweller]

16 hours ago, Michel said:

So in order, we've learned that Annalise (obviously), Oliver, Bonnie, Laurel, Michaela, Asher, and now Wes are alive.  (Yes, Wes is, too.  We were told from jump that we would learn each week one person who is not under the sheet.  It's not a trick.  He's safe.)  So that leaves Frank, Nate, and Connor.

After rewatching, I think you're right that the scene with Wes was in the future, but I have to say, ABC running a promo saying we will learn one new person a week does not give me any confidence that that is actually true. They have absolutely no problem lying in promos.

[Milaxx]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

The previews showed Connor ugly crying.

This is why I don't think they get back together. Oliver was being selfish running to him knowing Connor never wanted to breakup in the first place. It was just sex/comfort for Oliver, but Connor probably thought/hoped they were reconciling.

[Milaxx]

Also Annalise is back to sleeping like a normal Black woman. Hair tied up and makeup free. She really was fronting for Nate.

[dgpolo]

7 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

but I have to say, ABC running a promo saying we will learn one new person a week does not give me any confidence that that is actually true. They have absolutely no problem lying in promos.

Agree! After all they can't really tell us who survives next without dialing down the suspense for the big reveal the week after that. They have to leave it somewhat ambiguous or everybody will know beforehand.

And can I just say how much I loved Annaliese's pink coat!

[Michel]

15 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

After rewatching, I think you're right that the scene with Wes was in the future, but I have to say, ABC running a promo saying we will learn one new person a week does not give me any confidence that that is actually true. They have absolutely no problem lying in promos.

Well, I have full confidence.  Had they shown anyone else alive at the end, I would have believed that there is still a chance that Wes will die.  But since they did not, and he was the only new person shown, I'm inclined to believe that he is, in fact, safe and alive.

[starri]

If Connor and Oliver really aren't back together after that, Connor and Simon are totally going to hate-fuck, aren't they?

[wanderingstar]

Quote

You just know that Bonnie's right, but I felt for Frank, probably for the first time ever. And Charlie Weber did such an amazing job with that scene. 

I know! I really wanted Bonnie to forgive him. I like them together so much.

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

My crack pot theory for this week: I think Atwood is the rat. The "her" Wes is referring to is Atwood, not Annaalise. I think he got suspicious after seeing Nate all suited up and started snooping around. Whether Wes is working alone or with Annalise and or Frank, the target is Atwood.

I had the same thought, but I can't come up with a reason why the police would be so hell-bent on putting Atwood away, nor how it ties into Annalise in jail.

Anyways, I was kind of distracted so I'll have to go back and re-watch, but for now - it hadn't occurred to me that Laurel might be pointing a finger at Wes instead of asking about him, but that's a good possibility. I'm not convinced Wes is alive though - I think that scene could have been before the fire.

[Milaxx]

20 minutes ago, starri said:

If Connor and Oliver really aren't back together after that, Connor and Simon are totally going to hate-fuck, aren't they?

I wouldn't be surprised if Simon doesn't end up getting a hate/pity. Especially if Connor runs to him after finding out Oliver wasn't reconciling.

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

Also Annalise is back to sleeping like a normal Black woman. Hair tied up and makeup free. She really was fronting for Nate.

Bwaah, LOL, I love it, hilarious.

[Tiger]

22 minutes ago, starri said:

If Connor and Oliver really aren't back together after that, Connor and Simon are totally going to hate-fuck, aren't they?

As a Connor fan, Id rather Connor die than have sex with Drake.  

Its bad enough he has been turned into a whiney bitch baby for and has easily forgiven Oliver. He deserves a man worthy of him.  

[Milaxx]

2 minutes ago, secnarf said:

I had the same thought, but I can't come up with a reason why the police would be so hell-bent on putting Atwood away, nor how it ties into Annalise in jail.

Anyways, I was kind of distracted so I'll have to go back and re-watch, but for now - it hadn't occurred to me that Laurel might be pointing a finger at Wes instead of asking about him, but that's a good possibility. I'm not convinced Wes is alive though - I think that scene could have been before the fire.

They like to okey doke us at the last minute. Like Philip giving Annalise a thumbdrive with proof that Caleb killed his parent last season when all we saw was what looked like her being attacked in Wes's apartment. So it could be Wes saw Nate at the prosecutors office, got curious, dig some digging and found out she was the one who set Annalise up, leaked the slap tape, etc.... Wes tells Ananlise and they hatch a plan to frame her that iinvolves Wes playing a mole.

or I could be off my rocker.

[Tiger]

Also, while Im sure having an STD, especially HIV, is difficult to disclose, it must be done before the other guy has taken off his Diesel underwear and is about five seconds from giving a blowjob.  

If someone, male or female, had ever done that to me I sure as hell wouldnt have been as calm and forgiving as the acupuncturist.

Between this and what he did to Connor with Stanford, Oliver is a horrible person.  He doesnt deserve Connor.  

Edited November 5, 2016 by Tiger

[rubyred]

It's easier for me to buy Wes/Laurel's hidden crushes on each other than Bonnie's Everlasting Love for Frank. I never saw anything more than sibling chemistry between them in all three seasons, so for them to suddenly have sex and fantasize about running away together -- to me that was more of a wtf? I love AE, but even I have to admit that he was more animated in his bed scenes with Laurel than he's been...ever.

Bonnie is interesting in her dysfunction, and Liza Weil kills it, but FRANK? Bonnie loves FRANK?! Bonnie loves her fucked up relationship with Annaliese, and IMO fixated on Sam because of his connection to Annaliese. But the Bonnie/Frank scenes have been really good, laden with subtext, so I'll take it.

Favorite line: Annaliese to Laurel's "why me?" about taking first chair: "Because you're my puppet."

[Milaxx]

59 minutes ago, rubyred said:

Favorite line: Annaliese to Laurel's "why me?" about taking first chair: "Because you're my puppet."

Which was the perfect clapback from when they were complaining to Annalise. I knew Annalise would manage to use their own words against them. This was a great burn.

While I like the Wes/Laurel pairing that drunken, "I love you" was a bit of a WTH moment for me.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Milaxx

[secnarf]

27 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Also, while Im sure having an STD, especially HIV, is difficult to disclose, it must be done before the other guy has taken off his Diesel underwear and is about five seconds from giving a blowjob.  

If someone, male or female, had ever done that to me I sure as hell wouldnt have been as calm and forgiving as the acupuncturist.

Between this and what he did to Connor with Stanford, Oliver is a horrible person.  He doesnt deserve Connor.  

Pretty sure underwear was still on :P

Also, Oliver consistently stopped Thomas when he felt they were entering the danger zone, had tried to tell him before and got cut off, and Thomas was never in any danger. Especially since Oliver is undetectable.

Legally, at least where I live, you don't have to disclose a positive HIV status if you are undetectable and use a condom (for heterosexual vaginal intercourse, assumed/generally interpreted to be the same for anal and oral but hasn't been tested at the Supreme Court level). Ethically, it's a bit more dicey, but based on the science, the risk of transmission is not considered a "realistic possibility".

I totally agree that the Stanford thing was awful and I'm not sure Oliver will ever be able to make up for that (in my mind, anyways), but I don't think the timing of his disclosure makes him horrible.

 

I wonder if Frank would prefer Laurel or Bonnie - because he did go to see Laurel first (too bad he caught her with Wes), but I feel like Frank and Bonnie make more sense together. Honestly, I can't decide which of the two I would rather see Frank with. He seems like a completely different person now though, on his knees literally begging Bonnie to take him back, and I don't know if we've got enough development to see him go from A to B without it being too unrealistic.

 

I liked how Annalise gave them all permission to go at her, and then proceeded to use their words against them the rest of the episode. Typical Annalise.

[Milaxx]

Thomas had removed his underwear, but yeah Oliver did try to tell him.  Otherwise I agree with you, the timing of the disclosure was awkward but he's still newly diagnosed. As long as he shared that info before they slept together, I'm not going to condemn him. I also don't think the Stanford thing out ranks even half the horrible things these people have done.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Milaxx

[morgankobi]

The thing that is so bad to me about Stanford is that he lies to keep Connor here, and then breaks up with him. It's of course not murder...

Edited November 5, 2016 by morgankobi

[Milaxx]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but that's the key part of it. Why do that? Is he testing Connor? Trying to purposely push him away? The dishonesty  between them is always going to create problems . As long as Connor views Oliver as his lifeline, he will allow himself to be a doormat just to keep Oliver in his life and Oliver's going to keep searching for ways to climb down off that pedestal. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Milaxx

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Favorite line: Annaliese to Laurel's "why me?" about taking first chair: "Because you're my puppet."

I loved when Annalise said that. And Laurel needs to stop frontin' because she loves - no, lives for - being Annalise's puppet.

[starri]

28 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I loved when Annalise said that. And Laurel needs to stop frontin' because she loves - no, lives for - being Annalise's puppet.

No puppet.  No puppet.  YOU'RE the puppet.

[breezy424]

5 hours ago, Milaxx said:

As for who's under the sheet, I still think it's Frank, but I could see an argument for all Nate or Connor, even though I think Connor is very unlikely. There's just too much storyline to get out of Coliver.

I love when Bonnie has these moments of clarity like she did with Frank. Her calling him out about going to see Laurel first was golden.

My crack pot theory for this week: I think Atwood is the rat. The "her" Wes is referring to is Atwood, not Annaalise. I think he got suspicious after seeing Nate all suited up and started snooping around. Whether Wes is working alone or with Annalise and or Frank, the target is Atwood.

Love when Bonnie has 'moments of clarity'.

I think Atwood may be the rat as well.  Nate in the suit just sent up all sorts of red flags for me. 

It could be either Frank or Nate but Frank has more of a storyline to tell.  I don't know where they would go with Nate at this point.  He's sleeping with Atwood.  They're hinting at Annalise moving on in the romance department and that would enable to give us more insight into this complicated person.  I would be shocked if it were Connor and I want to see him and Oliver back together.  

But then again, what the heck do I know

Edited November 5, 2016 by breezy424

[Milaxx]

TBH I'd rather it be Nate. I just feel like it's gonna be Frank. I honestly wouldn't mind being wrong.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 11:32 PM, bantering said:

Yeah, Wes was in love with Rebecca which I feel is why they're all in the mess they are today.  I didn't get it when Connor was blaming Analise (don't even get me started on Michaela blaming Analise for sleeping with Caleb. Wtf). Wes and Rebecca's inability to follow instruction properly are the reason Analise had to keep wiping her floors down. Duh.

There have been so many messes on this show, but I don't get how it tracks back as fully Wes's and Rebecca's fault.  I would think that Sam knocking up a college girl was the first mistake.  Then Sam instructing Frank, and Frank following through on murdering her.   Annalise instructing Wes how to cover up Sam's death, when it was justifiable, IMO, and there were many witnesses.  Rebecca was stupid to go and get Sam's computer, but her life was on the line, and Nate instructed her to go in and do it.  Then Bonnie killed Rebecca to "protect" everyone.  Asher road raged the ADA, and Annalise outed Sam's death to blackmail the others into helping with Asher's cover up.  Annalise demanded she get shot, then goaded Wes into doing so.  To me, the Keating five would all be fine if they had never met Sam and Annalise Keating.

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 11:52 PM, breezy424 said:

What I couldn't get out of my mind was Wes runs into Nate, who happened to be in a suit, who tells him he just came from a meeting with the prosecutors' office.  Just makes me a bit suspicious of what's going on with him.  Isn't he dating the assistant district attorney?  I thought Wes's meeting was in present time but even if it was in the future, it doesn't mean it he was the 'source'.  Maybe he was signing to attest she didn't set fire to the house in return for immunity.

I've always thought the body under the sheets was either Nate or Frank.  I don't think they would kill off Wes or Connor.

Bonnie continues to be one of the most interesting characters on the show.

I've long hoped it was Nate.  He serves absolutely no purpose but eye candy.  He and Annalise hate each other, and she ruined his career.  He randomly showed up in a suit and at a suspicious place.  His scene was purposeless, other than to set up for his death, or to plant another huge red herring.  They're going OOT with giving everyone a motive and opportunity - it's like a soap opera (or a Mary Higgins Clark book).  Then in the "afters" Connor just happens to be MIA, now Wes is MIA, and I assume next week will be Nate or Frank's turn.  They also bait the audience a bit too much.  Frank's in the house!  Is this the scene which leads to a dead body?  Nope, he's gone.  Next week - Frank's there, again!  Is this it?  They also baited with Wes being at her house.  I will be very angry if the dead body is a character who has a purpose on this show, and they keep that loser moping around because some fans like to look at his body.

And I adore Bonnie.  She's on VD's level, IMO.

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 1:32 AM, Michel said:

So in order, we've learned that Annalise (obviously), Oliver, Bonnie, Laurel, Michaela, Asher, and now Wes are alive.  (Yes, Wes is, too.  We were told from jump that we would learn each week one person who is not under the sheet.  It's not a trick.  He's safe.)  So that leaves Frank, Nate, and Connor.

After being fairly sure for weeks that Nate won't be the one due to his reduced screen time, I'm wondering now if he is?  They already showed Annalise meeting a potential new guy, and if they intend to go somewhere with that, then there's no further need for Nate.  Could be Connor, as well.  If he and Oliver are now back together, then that seems like the perfect way to give him a swan song.  Frank?  Well, as was said above, his arc feels finished now.  Annalise doesn't want him around anymore.  Bonnie doesn't want him around anymore.  And I'm thinking Laurel doesn't want him around anymore, either.  No further use for him, either.

Damn.  Any of the three remaining ones could be under there now.  I'm feeling intense waiting to see whom it is!

It would be strange to kill of Frank, when the big promo is - "Look who's back!".  Why oh why kill him and leave Nate?  Frank can strut around with his shirt off, too.

16 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Why are these idiots mad at Annalise for anything?  SHE is the reason none of their sorry behinds are in jail.

I hear what you're saying, and many agree with you.  I'm apparently in the minority here, but as petulantly as they whine, Annalise is manipulating them.  My secret hope is when all is said and done, and it's the final season - it is revealed that Annalise came home, found Sam injured but alive, and finished him off.  She was already sitting there calculating the best spin when Wes came back.  For all she knew, Sam had been assaulted by an intruder who was still in the home.  Yet Wes found her sitting at her desk, doing nothing.  There was absolutely no reason for her not to have called 911 when she found him.  She of all people knew this.  People find their spouses and even children dead quite frequently in this country.  Yet they all seem to get to the phone and call 911.  Their first impulse isn't to sit and stare at their dead loved one, then have the supposed killer walk back in, and instruct said killer to not be sorry.

Regardless, Annalise would know that what those five did was something she could spin as justifiable - easily.  She already knew Sam got Lillian (?) pregnant, and she at least suspected Sam was killer.  She was the pro.  She was the one with the brilliant legal mind and experience.  The K5 were remarkable naïve, and reacted in a panic.  And like that, four of them were beholden to her, and she could threaten them when they crossed her.  Annalise took advantage of that panic, IMO, and it's to tie them to her.  Just like every time she feels her hold over Bonnie weakening, she verbally eviscerates Bonnie, and lets her know she's nothing without her.  Annalise IS that diabolical woman who poisoned herself to torment her children, and Annalise recognized it. 

I think chaos and disorder is Annalise's normal.  When life seems to be going well, she sabotages it.  She could have had Eve for decades, but she pushes her away when it gets good.  It's a fascinating character and VD is a phenom, but the character is calculating, manipulative, and very cruel at times.  I really wonder how different she would be if her baby had lived.  Or if she would have guilted him for not being devoted enough, or reminded him daily what sacrifices she made for him.

[RedheadZombie]

It pains me, and I know I'm in the minority, but I just don't like Connor.  They worked hard to suddenly make him the sensitive and moral person last season when he refused to shoot Annalise.  They even had him cry, cower, and even point out that all of this happens to him - the victim.  But I remember the Connor who seduced a man for a case, then shrugged when it resulted in the man killing himself.  And I remember Connor dismembering Sam's body with apparent ease.  It felt they were aiming for psychopath, then backed off when they found the audience liked him with Oliver.  He just doesn't work for me.  Cold when he was tangentially responsible for a suicide.  Cold when up to his elbows in blood and bone.  Whiney, petulant, constant nasty comments to everyone - even BFF Michaela.  If he's not pouting he's scowling.  I'm bored by him.

11 hours ago, stuckin60s said:

This episode also ended with Frank coming to Laurel at the end and asking to stay. We do t know what happened there

I'm really hoping they're not heading down the "who's the daddy" road.  Why else was Laurel drunk in that scene?  So she will land in bed with Frank against her better judgment?  Or they may even write ambiguous consent.  So Wes can confront Frank, who just happens to be at Annalise's house.  Maybe Wes kills Frank.  Maybe Annalise swoops in again to cover up a crime, and sets the house on fire.  Laurel rushes in to save someone.  I hope that's not the case.  I know they pride themselves for throwing everybody off the scent, then turning in knots to justify the outcome.  My suggestion may sound ridiculous, but it's probably not half as ridiculous as what they've already written. 

5 hours ago, rubyred said:

It's easier for me to buy Wes/Laurel's hidden crushes on each other than Bonnie's Everlasting Love for Frank. I never saw anything more than sibling chemistry between them in all three seasons, so for them to suddenly have sex and fantasize about running away together -- to me that was more of a wtf? I love AE, but even I have to admit that he was more animated in his bed scenes with Laurel than he's been...ever.

Bonnie is interesting in her dysfunction, and Liza Weil kills it, but FRANK? Bonnie loves FRANK?! Bonnie loves her fucked up relationship with Annaliese, and IMO fixated on Sam because of his connection to Annaliese. But the Bonnie/Frank scenes have been really good, laden with subtext, so I'll take it.

Favorite line: Annaliese to Laurel's "why me?" about taking first chair: "Because you're my puppet."

When Bonnie and Frank were in that hotel, I couldn't help but think of Katniss/Peeta in The Hunger Games.  They're married at the end, but they're barely hanging onto their sanity.  They are just so scarred from what they went through, and their broken pieces fit.  There's deep caring there, but it's more that they understand each other so well.  And I feel that way with Bonnie and Frank.  It actually moved me so much I didn't even post about it that week (I think?).  Why write something so beautifully broken, then have Frank go for Laurel again?  I didn't care for Frank the first season.  But seeing him as that badly-dressed eager puppy/secretary for Anna helped me warm to him.  And then his torment over being indirectly responsible for the baby's death, and knowing how Sam took advantage of how damaged he was.  I'm rooting for him now.  He's definitely one of the most fascinating, IMO.

[Milaxx]

We all interpret things differently but I always got the impression that Connor was disturbed by Pax's suicide.  He alway appeared upset to the point of mania over chopping up Sam's body. That's what he Connor does, he deflects and covers it up with false bravado.  

I also don't see Laureal sleeping with Frank because she's drunk. The character was drunk because she was celebrating a big win in court. Her drunkenness is what allowed her to say "I love you" to Wes. I doubt she's going to sleep with Frank. 

[starri]

Just now, Milaxx said:

We all interpret things differently but I always got the impression that Connor was disturbed by Pax's suicide.  He alway appeared upset to the point of mania over chopping up Sam's body. That's what he Connor does, he deflects and covers it up with false bravado.  

I remember him being the most upset over what happened to Sam, and it seems to have stuck with him longer.  Wes was all "Rebecca, Rebecca, Rebecca," Laurel revealed herself to be incredibly cold-blooded, and Michaela has kind of been hung up in her romantic entanglements.

[bantering]

7 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

There have been so many messes on this show, but I don't get how it tracks back as fully Wes's and Rebecca's fault.  I would think that Sam knocking up a college girl was the first mistake.  Then Sam instructing Frank, and Frank following through on murdering her.   Annalise instructing Wes how to cover up Sam's death, when it was justifiable, IMO, and there were many witnesses.  Rebecca was stupid to go and get Sam's computer, but her life was on the line, and Nate instructed her to go in and do it.  Then Bonnie killed Rebecca to "protect" everyone.  Asher road raged the ADA, and Annalise outed Sam's death to blackmail the others into helping with Asher's cover up.  Annalise demanded she get shot, then goaded Wes into doing so.  To me, the Keating five would all be fine if they had never met Sam and Annalise Keating.

 

I think the actual murder/manslaughter of Sam tracks back to Rebecca, which is ultimately what they've all been trying to hide.    It's the murder that got them into the life situation they are now -- not just avoiding jail, but also dealing with the guilt of killing someone indirectly. 

The messes prior to his murder are Sam's fault (yes, I agree). But none of that had anything to do with the Keating 5. They never would have been busted for that since they had no connection to what he did. They didn't know him then and there's no way a court of law could point to them having a connection to what Sam and Frank concocted. However, I think the murder of Sam could have been avoided if Rebecca hadn't been in that house at such an odd time without any kind of extra help to get her out of the jam when she got caught (if you know the guy is a murderer, why are you going to that stinking house alone? I'm not faulting her for wanting to get the goods, but I am faulting her for how she went about doing it. Heck, I think even Nate should have had common sense and maybe given some instruction to Rebecca on how to get the material without getting into an altercation. Was Nate so angry at Analise he forgot how to instruct Rebecca how not to get trapped in the clutches of a murderer? Maybe finding a reason for a warrant would have been too logical). I also remember Rebecca thinking up the dumb idea to pin the murder of Asher by getting his footprint in the blood. At that point, I wondered why Wes wanted to help her so badly -- she was never really worth the trouble. And at that point it really wasn't clear what Analise was going to do about her husband. Everybody just assumed she'd save him, but we don't know that. We've seen her time and time again do her job, and I suspect she would have done the same for Rebecca.

Analise is complicated morally and ethically, but she has common sense and logic. The rest don't, not even Nate. And especially not Rebecca. It's like we don't even care that she was murdered by Bonnie because logic seemed to elude her so much (and yeah, I pin that blame on Bonnie, not Wes or Rebecca herself. But I also don't pin that on Analise since I can't recall Analise giving dumb instructions like that. As I said in my previous post, it's when these people go off and do something on their own that they mess up.)

On some level, I also think the others wanted to follow Analise's advice. I think Connor has been the closest to breaking, but ultimately none of them seem to have enough of an attack of conscience to want to break away from what she had been advising, and I'm not sure if that's because they fear the inside of a jail cell that much. She's now inside a jail cell, but seems to be taking it better than any of them would.

Edited November 5, 2016 by bantering

[Tiger]

2 hours ago, starri said:

I remember him being the most upset over what happened to Sam, and it seems to have stuck with him longer.  Wes was all "Rebecca, Rebecca, Rebecca," Laurel revealed herself to be incredibly cold-blooded, and Michaela has kind of been hung up in her romantic entanglements.

Yeah, maybe its my pro-Connor bias making me misremember what happened, but ai thought Connor was disturbed by Pax's suicide and what he was forced to do to Sam.  

Thats why it made sense for Connor to be the rat; he clearly wants out.  

Also, there was so much story there; there is no story if Connor is dead beyond someone/anyone being dead.  

Also; IIRC, myself and others thought Connor would either go or be revealed to be a psycho since Falahee had played a psycho on that ABC Family show and some indie he had done.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Tiger

[dgpolo]

7 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

My secret hope is when all is said and done, and it's the final season - it is revealed that Annalise came home, found Sam injured but alive, and finished him off.  She was already sitting there calculating the best spin when Wes came back.

This has been my theory all along, until I see with my eyes what happened between the time Wes left and came back, this is what I believe. The way Wes acted after he went back and started trying to cover it up reminds me how he's acting now, following orders.

[Tiger]

Frankly, I'll be dissapointed if the final episode is not a reveal that Annalise knew everything (Sam screwing and impregnating Lila, Frank killing her baby, etc) and the whole series was her manipulating others to do her dirty work all while keeping her own hands clean.  

Viola is so fucking brilliant in this role that they could reveal Annalise Keating to be the most sinister villain of all time, and I would still root for her.  

[darkestboy]

Wes is alive and he's about to betray Annalise. Oh dear but at least it's one more person we can cross off the list.

I really don't want the person to be Connor but with Oliver maybe getting back together with him (Thomas didn't last), perhaps it might be him.

I'd rather it was Frank or Nate and it still might be one of them. Nate is completely pointless and Frank really does feel like he could be on the way out as well.

I don't mind Wes/Laurel but I saw Frank coming to her from a mile off after Bonnie rejected him.

They're definitely making sure we see Simon, Meggy and Hargrove more and more each week, aren't they? I do like the characters.

Michaela and Asher certainly had their moments this week and I liked the case of the week, 8/10

[DearEvette]

I really liked this case of the week and of course saw the parallels with Ana and the K5. 

I wasn't sure how I felt with the whole "come at me bruh" scene where they all stand there and unload on Ana.  On the one hand some of the stuff they said was silly, but on the other it probably was a much needed catharsis.  I do think they are suffering some sort of PTSD all linked back to Sam, (Asher's is a result of killing the DA) and all of their guilt and trauma is tied in to their relationship with Ana because she is the only common denominator between what they did and between each other.  So that there is a lot of dysfunction there.

I can't stand Simon so I love how the K5, despite any of their internal issues with each other, all are unified in their dislike of him.

I usually am not on board with Asher's goofiness, but I admit he was welcome comic relief.  The faces he made every time he delivered a line especially when he and Michaela were teasing Oliver and that "I choose you Hackachu!"

[rubyred]

I've been thinking about the "come at me, bruh" scenes and it strikes me that of the four that contributed, Michaela's was the most heartfelt and emotional. Which brought me back to the pilot, because even then Michaela states clearly "I want to BE her" - so it make sense that she would be reacting  so strongly and have the biggest emotional punch in the scene. Annaliese Keating represented to Michaela what she was working so hard to make her life into, only she was revealed to be a total sham and disaster, and Michaela has been watching her own future swirl down the same drain. Connor's whine was the same since season 1 ("You never let us go to the police"), Laurel's was blunt but a little more self-aware (she knows she's the puppet, but she does things anyway, so she knows she's given up her agency for whatever reason), and Asher's was interesting, if brief, if only because we only ever get glimpses of trueAsher. But that was really Aja Naomi King's scene, and she delivered, marking the first time I've ever been really interested in Michaela and felt like she could go toe-to-toe with VD...almost.

[jhlipton]

23 hours ago, ribboninthesky said:

Bonnie's probably the only one who could reduce a hitman for hire into a wounded puppy off sheer emotional force. Delfino did her way dirty with his disappearing act, but yet due to his desperation - still felt my heartstrings getting pulled in spite of how in the wrong he was. Fantastic work from her and Charlie.

Yes!  And he knew he deserved it.  Both this and their previous scenes are definitely Emmy-worthy.

 

18 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I know! I really wanted Bonnie to forgive him. I like them together so much.

I'm glad she didn't -- he hurt her so deeply (worse than Oliver hurt Connor).

Edited November 5, 2016 by jhlipton

[Happytobehere]

13 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

It pains me, and I know I'm in the minority, but I just don't like Connor.  They worked hard to suddenly make him the sensitive and moral person last season when he refused to shoot Annalise.  They even had him cry, cower, and even point out that all of this happens to him - the victim.  But I remember the Connor who seduced a man for a case, then shrugged when it resulted in the man killing himself.  And I remember Connor dismembering Sam's body with apparent ease.  It felt they were aiming for psychopath, then backed off when they found the audience liked him with Oliver.  He just doesn't work for me.  Cold when he was tangentially responsible for a suicide.  Cold when up to his elbows in blood and bone.  Whiney, petulant, constant nasty comments to everyone - even BFF Michaela.  If he's not pouting he's scowling.  I'm bored by him.

I'm really hoping they're not heading down the "who's the daddy" road.  Why else was Laurel drunk in that scene?  So she will land in bed with Frank against her better judgment?  Or they may even write ambiguous consent.  So Wes can confront Frank, who just happens to be at Annalise's house.  Maybe Wes kills Frank.  Maybe Annalise swoops in again to cover up a crime, and sets the house on fire.  Laurel rushes in to save someone.  I hope that's not the case.  I know they pride themselves for throwing everybody off the scent, then turning in knots to justify the outcome.  My suggestion may sound ridiculous, but it's probably not half as ridiculous as what they've already written. 

When Bonnie and Frank were in that hotel, I couldn't help but think of Katniss/Peeta in The Hunger Games.  They're married at the end, but they're barely hanging onto their sanity.  They are just so scarred from what they went through, and their broken pieces fit.  There's deep caring there, but it's more that they understand each other so well.  And I feel that way with Bonnie and Frank.  It actually moved me so much I didn't even post about it that week (I think?).  Why write something so beautifully broken, then have Frank go for Laurel again?  I didn't care for Frank the first season.  But seeing him as that badly-dressed eager puppy/secretary for Anna helped me warm to him.  And then his torment over being indirectly responsible for the baby's death, and knowing how Sam took advantage of how damaged he was.  I'm rooting for him now.  He's definitely one of the most fascinating, IMO.

I agree with your entire post, and no, you are not all but alone in your dislike of Connor.  I have never liked him and not even liking the Oliver paring altered my opinion of who Connor truly is.  Much like Nate, I have never liked, trusted or thought that there is essentially a good person under the surface.

I too hope there is no ambiguity to the pregnancy (which I suspect won't result in an actual birth) not because I prefer one man to be the father over the other, but because the show has enough soapy goodness without this typical soap trope.

I also wished Frank had not bee-lined himself to Laurel, but it does make sense and might not be a love-centered move.  Frank knows what he did to Bonnie was crappy and he is looking for a way in, so it makes sense that he would test the waters with the person who has basically been stalking him by phone for five months.  Believing Laurel to be on his side, Frank goes to her to feel out how both Annalise and Bonnie might respond to his presence.  His night with Bonnie gave him a slim hope that having seemingly gotten Wes off the hook, that Annalise might at least hear him out, which even if she responds with venom, is a foot in the door.  He has known her for years and knows that after her initial rage, no matter how long-lived, she might process his perspective and take him back provisionally.  If Laurel confirms Bonnie protected him, not revealing the sex or giving up info. about him, Frank feels like Bonnie might still be open to hearing him out.  Once seeing Laurel with Wes and realizing she was likely playing him, Frank takes the best shot he has, go to Bonnie, because he knows he cant go to Annalise sans Bonnie, if he suspects that Laurel's deceit was an Annalise play.

I keep saying it because I want to wish it into the universe.  Please let Frank live he is one of my favorite characters and quite frankly (no pun intended) he actually serves a vital role in the way Annalise conducts business.  Kill Nate. While no fan of Connor, and feeling it is time for a K5 shakeup, I don't want him to be the one under the sheet because I respect the love others have for him and I sort of like his "friendship" with Michaela, although given my opinion of him, I doubt that friendship is all that real.

[tennisgurl]

So Wes is probably alive! I`m alright with that. Wes is probably my least favorite Keating 5, but I still like the guy and I think his relationship with Annalise is interesting, especially now that he might be betraying her! Oh the drama!

Please dont let the dead body be Connor! What can I say, I love the guy, and I feel awful for him. He constantly seems to be on the edge of a breakdown, and now it looks like Oliver might have used him when he felt sad and drunk. Or maybe they really are getting back together. I would be alright with them getting back together, if Oliver gives Connor a big huge apology for dumping him for no reason after screwing him out of his dream school and his chance of having a normal life as a normal law student. On the other hand, if Connor and Oliver get back together, I feel like it might make Connor more likely to be the dead body. Maybe I watch too much Joss Whedon stuff, but happy couples equal death to add more drama. 

I am not really feelings Wes and Laurel as a couple. And the idea that Wes has been into Laurel since day one? Show, we all remember the first season, and how obsessed with Rebecca he was! You just brought up Rebecca a few episodes ago! Laurel was awesome in court though. As someone else said, I feel like Connor and Laurel have done the best job at actually being a lawyer. I actually think they could be a good team. He empathizes with clients, and Laurel is cut throat in court.  

I really liked the MoTW and how it tied into Annalises relationship with the Keating 5. I honestly have sympathy for everyone here. I get why they get frustrated with Annalises manipulation and her lying, and she does have a tendency to use them and she really does not have a lot of respect for them in general, and she isn't exactly a warm and cuddly mentor figure, BUT, I get Annalise too.  I feel like she does care about the K5 and does feel real maternal feelings for them, especially considering how much she wanted a child. She does shady stuff, especially towards "her kids", but I think she does want to protect them, and lying and manipulating them is really how she thinks she can best do that. And I think the K5 do really care about her too, and want her approval. Look how fast they all snapped at Asshole Guy when he said something shitty about Annalise. They can scream at her and call her a shitty drunk to her face, and anyone else saying something mildly mean to her? Claws come out!

How did Michaela and Asher become my favorite couple on this show? They shouldn't work, but they totally do. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by tennisgurl

[morgankobi]

15 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

 

When Bonnie and Frank were in that hotel, I couldn't help but think of Katniss/Peeta in The Hunger Games.  They're married at the end, but they're barely hanging onto their sanity.  They are just so scarred from what they went through, and their broken pieces fit.  There's deep caring there, but it's more that they understand each other so well.  And I feel that way with Bonnie and Frank.  It actually moved me so much I didn't even post about it that week (I think?).  Why write something so beautifully broken, then have Frank go for Laurel again?  I didn't care for Frank the first season.  But seeing him as that badly-dressed eager puppy/secretary for Anna helped me warm to him.  And then his torment over being indirectly responsible for the baby's death, and knowing how Sam took advantage of how damaged he was.  I'm rooting for him now.  He's definitely one of the most fascinating, IMO.

Your take on Frank and Bonnie is what I haven't been able to figure out how to say. It's not that she all of a sudden "lurves" him, or has had a crush this whole time. They've been through some shit together (I'd venture things weren't much better than this before the K5), and they understand much of what the other than has done and been though. That's their connection.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Okay, I'm sorta on the Frank-is-under-the-sheet train but I haven't completely given up on Wes because I think the show could be playing some time frame games. I'm also now afraid it might be Connor. Nate has all but dropped out of my options. (And I really don't get all the Nate Hate. He's been as much a victim of Annalise's as the Keating 5. Meanwhile, Annalise lining up a fellow alcoholic as a rebound lover would seem like a bad idea on several levels to me.)

I'm glad Connor and Oliver got back together--for some ex sex anyway--but you'd think Connor would feel more taken-for-granted. I hope he dumps Oliver now but odds are Oliver will drop him. AGAIN.

Pedantry: Bonnie misused the term "sloppy seconds" since it basically means getting someone else's recently-used goodies. Frank would be the sloppy seconds she'd be getting from Laurel; she would not be the seconds he's getting from anyone unless you count Asher. Similarly, Wes is getting Frank's sloppy seconds, while Laurel is getting Meggie's. I guess maybe Bonnie meant she's Frank's second choice but then she knew that when she slept with him so I don't know why she's all offended now. Oh, wait, there's my pregnancy theory...

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

 I've been thinking about the "come at me, bruh" scenes and it strikes me that of the four that contributed, Michaela's was the most heartfelt and emotional. Which brought me back to the pilot, because even then Michaela states clearly "I want to BE her" - so it make sense that she would be reacting  so strongly and have the biggest emotional punch in the scene. Annaliese Keating represented to Michaela what she was working so hard to make her life into, only she was revealed to be a total sham and disaster, and Michaela has been watching her own future swirl down the same drain. Connor's whine was the same since season 1 ("You never let us go to the police"), Laurel's was blunt but a little more self-aware (she knows she's the puppet, but she does things anyway, so she knows she's given up her agency for whatever reason), and Asher's was interesting, if brief, if only because we only ever get glimpses of trueAsher. But that was really Aja Naomi King's scene, and she delivered, marking the first time I've ever been really interested in Michaela and felt like she could go toe-to-toe with VD...almost.

Totally agree, she literally had tears in her eyes, because unlike the rest she really did idolize Anna. Damn, what a let down. I actually thought that Michaela and Wes were the only ones who were not on board when in one episode Laurel was happy at the thought of Anna being fired, she said something to the effect of she'll be out of our lives and Wes and Michaela you could see didn't seem like they agreed. I'm still not sure Wes is turning on Anna, and I can't really tell how he truly feels about her. I believe his feelings were purposely left open to anyone's interpretation. 

Quote

But that was really Aja Naomi King's scene, and she delivered, marking the first time I've ever been really interested in Michaela and felt like she could go toe-to-toe with VD...almost.

Yeah, well VD went to Juilliard and Aja went to the Yale University's School of Drama so I'd say that hell of tuition fee is starting to pay off. She's got some chops and she's young so, she should only get better. She was in this movie Birth of a Nation and she's the one whose performance is getting the most recognition. 

[Delphi]

Ugh,  Connor please don't be dead. 

I'm conflicted .   I want Oliver and Connor back together.   But no,  Oliver,  you don't get to come back to Connor just because you're sad and know he doesn't care that you're pos.  And poor Connor is so desperate for him that he just didn't see it. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by Delphi
No and know aren't the same

[Milaxx]

On 11/5/2016 at 2:36 AM, RedheadZombie said:

I think chaos and disorder is Annalise's normal.  When life seems to be going well, she sabotages it.  She could have had Eve for decades, but she pushes her away when it gets good.  It's a fascinating character and VD is a phenom, but the character is calculating, manipulative, and very cruel at times.

This. I don't think that Annalise is intentionally evil and I *really* don't think she had anything to do with Sam's murder other than helping/instructing Wes on how to cover it up. Part of it may be that she needs to protect her carefully crafted image of the powerhouse attorney rather than reveal the scared, lonely person she really is at all cost. Whatever the case is deep down Annalise doesn't believe she deserves to be happy even though she desperately craves it. 

As for her "finishing off" Sam. After Wes hit him with that statue Sam was indeed very, very dead. That blow to the head splattered blood all over Rebecca. If there was a chance he would still alive after that, I'm pretty certain he bled out while they stood around trying to figure out what to do and hiding from Asher. That was a rather large pool of blood on the floor.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Milaxx