S01.E05: The Alamo

[Moose135]

7 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

Which brings to mind the question, if they kill Flynn in the past, how do they get both time machines back to the present?

Is Flynn driving the other time machine? I thought that was why he brought Max Headroom along.

[saber5055]

The incongruity of this show is killing me. Not that a time-travel show should be realistic. But everyone is all, "You can't change history!" so they let Abe Lincoln get murdered yet they will shoot/kill assorted German soldiers and Mexicans, all of whom MAYBE were meant to live. And create Lucy's sister! And father! And fiance! So what's up with not saving Lincoln and the killing everyone else. At least this episode Wyatt looked the part, soldiers were in their teens and 20s then, so Wyatt's combat story was believable, even if Rufus bonding with Dan'l was not. And those grenades ... why did Wyatt bring them this tim? And then not do anything with them? They changed history by letting women/children out of the viaduct, yet they can't change history by lobbing a few grenades over the wall to take out Santa Anna? Or use the present-day pistols to auto-shoot the Mexicans? Oh yeah ... mustn't change HISTORY.

When Lucy asked Mom for "the name," I thought she was asking the name of her fiance. Since I don't think she knows that, either.

(Sorry for typos above. This site will not let me edit.)

[tennisgurl]

*Sigh* I guess we cant fight Nazis with Ian Flemming every week. Not a bad episode, but more on the bland side. Even though its about The Alamo! Not a particularly bland battle. I enjoyed it I guess, but this one just didn't click like some of the other ones.  

I really just want to know what Flynn's stupid plan actually is, because now it just seems really...random. At least show us there is some method to this madness! Right now, its just like "I`ll mess with the Union government at the end of the Civil War! Then I`ll give the Soviets the upper hand in the Space Race! Then I`ll keep Remember the Alamo from being an old timey meme, and screw over the ending from Peewees Big Adventure! Next up, drilling holes in Washington's boat when he crosses the Deleware, and then I`ll steal all of Andy Warhol's cans! Muahahahah"! I would just like some kind of sense that Flynn isn't just making up shit as he goes along.  

This episode just proves that Wyatt really shouldn't be in this team. I was warming up to him last week, but this week? The guy clearly has a TON of issues and really shouldn't be on such an important mission. Every damn episode he tries to change the past! I get why he does it, I get that he`s a soldier and he has a strong sense of right and wrong, and its hard to leave people to die or let bad guys get away with their crimes, but...thats how this mission is. The whole POINT is to keep history from changing, and he keeps trying to change it! It seemed like last week he was finally starting to understand that last week, but this week we are back to where we started. Plus giving him a soldier PTSD story is just like his dead wife story. Just adding extra angst.   

I always end up comparing this show to Legends of Tomorrow over on the CW. Both are about groups of people traveling around time to stop a bad guy with vaguely defined goals who is screwing with history. Neither show is perfect, but at least LoT is aware of how ridiculous it is, and has fun with it. This show is always trying to teach lessons and give speeches about the importance of...stuff. It takes me out of the show. 

[Dowel Jones]

24 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

Is Flynn driving the other time machine? I thought that was why he brought Max Headroom along.

Was he a willing accomplice or a prisoner? If the former, then now you have the problem of custody.  You can't leave him alone in the capsule and trust him to follow you back to the future, nor does watching him do much good.  Lucy seems to be mostly used for goo goo eyes at the historical figures they meet, so is she going to boss him around?  Wyatt can sit there with a gun on him, but now you have that scenario of "Go ahead and shoot, what are you going to do after I'm dead?"

[officetemp]

Wyatt [re:  Rufus]:  "He's a smart guy--he'll figure it out."  [On how to make the aqueduct escape plan work.]  WRONG!!

Should have been:  Wyatt (as he helps Rufus position the grenades so as not to collapse the aqueduct when they blow):  "Told ya these would come in handy!"

I got the impression during the whole episode that the garrison was on the verge of being overrun by Santa Ana's troops at any moment.  Yet, here's Wyatt--instead of reacting immediately and proactively--zoning out, staring into the middle distance and walking down memory lane whenever someone says something has to be done urgently.  After we learned what had happened to his old unit, I'm kinda wondering if Wyatt's assignment to this mission was strictly a reputation choice--given that he had been awarded a medal and all--by people in positions of authority who really didn't bother to find out anything about him.  (Also, I don't know about y'all, but he sure don't talk like a Texan.)

I want Lucy's Alamo costume.  I thought it was so flattering on her, especially the hat.  Actually the costumes for all three of them were pretty cool.  They seemed to be too clean and neat, however, for people who had been traveling--on foot, no less--supposedly for days on end.

I think the whole time-stream is hopelessly polluted now and the reality they eventually end up with will be something with which no one is satisfied yet something for which they'll all have to settle, just to stop the madness.

So Connor Mason is also being pressured by Rittenhouse.  Could Rittenhouse be some kind of shadowy, rogue cabal within the government itself?  Could the government people overseeing the Stop Flynn mission be working for Rittenhouse?

Maybe Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus were chosen because they are the ones who need to be able to remember everything that happened prior to all the time line alterations.

[withanaich]

I believe (and I don't know if someone on the show mentioned this or I'm fanwanking) that Flynn is picking these moments in time because they're critical not only to U.S./world history, but to the history of Rittenhouse. Maybe he's trying to get someone killed who starts Rittenhouse, or set it up so that the ancestor of a key player puts them in the wrong place to do so. For instance, maybe the person who starts Rittenhouse is a big politician in Texas, and screwing up the Alamo means Texas never comes to be (though count me in with the other viewers who were like, "So?") and that person is now living some other life in Mexico where they can't cause Flynn any trouble. And because he has the diary, he has this intimate knowledge of all these turning points in the organization's history.

Quote

Could Rittenhouse be some kind of shadowy, rogue cabal within the government itself?  Could the government people overseeing the Stop Flynn mission be working for Rittenhouse?

Even if that's true -- and I'm not ruling it out, because it does make sense -- they still wouldn't be able to point the trio in the right direction proactively without tipping their hand. 

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, officetemp said:

Also, I don't know about y'all, but he sure don't talk like a Texan.

Not all of us have obvious, heavy accents. Most people in the major cities have no obvious accents. But I did expect the Texan on the team to have more knowledge of the history for that one event. Texas history is a required subject, usually in seventh grade, and he's probably visited the Alamo at least once. If you've visited the Alamo as a tourist and seen how it's situated in downtown San Antonio, surrounded by lush gardens, then I'd imagine being there during the battle would be a huge shock, though you still might have a decent idea of the layout.

I liked that Wyatt's military tactics came into use.

8 minutes ago, officetemp said:

Should have been:  Wyatt (as he helps Rufus position the grenades so as not to collapse the aqueduct when they blow):  "Told ya these would come in handy!"

I found myself quoting an entirely different movie: "Sure would be nice if we had some grenades."

[dr pepper]

14 hours ago, bros402 said:

Decent episode, but I would've liked if Wyatt had been replaced - or if they had brought in the military guy as an alternate, as Wyatt is the most likely one among them to get injured.

Agreed. It would have made things more interesting if the show had ended with something like:

New Guy: They just raised my security clearance and made me sign a really scary non disclosure agreement. What's going on here?

Wyatt: Well, Bro, you'd better sit down. We both better sit down. [opens bottle] And you're going to need this. So, there's this time machine... [fade]

13 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I liked Rufus's "Viva Mexico" upon hearing that slavery had been outlawed there, and Lucy admonishing him "Don't say that too loudly here."  There are larger considerations....

So Flynn waltzes into the Mexican Army camp with a bag load of silver and a letter from Queen Isabella of Spain, and he expects Santa Anna to just roll over?  Uh, thanks for the bullion, good buddy, but we just kicked those fools out of our country not too long ago.  Hit the road.

I had the same thought. Of all the countries that might offer to intervene on Mexico's behalf, Spain would be the least acceptable. Why not Argentina or Colombia?

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

{small voice} I know, right? I mean, the whole "horror" premise here was, if Flynn succeeds, there'll be no Texas! And I'm like, and that would be bad why??? {/small voice}

Two words... JR. Ewing. That is enough for me.

It was an ok episode but lacking in originality and depressing that Wyatt has been doubled down with tragedy. They truly have no idea what to do with him.  Glad to see they addressed Wyatt not getting the job done but a couple of other questions as well - (1) why do the powers at be continue to have the mission be to kill Garcia? Capture him and find out the plan and then kill him?  and (2) if someone is in charge of Garcia - amazing that he hasn't ended up dead. That would be a funny out to find him dead for not getting HIS job done. Has Garcia really succeeded at all. At what point does Garcia or his owners get tired of this.  Also when will the team stop focusing on history and try to trap Garcia or lure him while pretending like they are trying to thwart whatever he is doing. If they capture him it all comes to an end anyway.  Send another crew in the time machine to work on the history aspect. Can only three of them go? When are they going to start playing offense?

I am going to guess that Garcia is her dad. Only because (1) mom refuses to talk about it (perhaps because Garcia asked her not to); (2) and the actress looks like she could be his daughter. Also at the start of the show he had lost his wife and child so perhaps in sort of a rebound he met Lucy's mom and fathered her. If he was her son you would think he would be uber protective of her. Last week didn't he allow the Nazi's to have her? 

[green]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I enjoyed this episode, but I was kind of lost on what Flynn was trying to do.  He wanted Santa Anna to attack early, so the famous "Victory or Death" letter wouldn't be sent, and then Texas would never become part of the United States?  What longtime end purpose would that have served for him?

I don't know why people keep on insisting that Flynn is Eastern European.  I know that the actor is Croatian, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the character is Croatian.   On the contrary, the fact that they gave him a name like "Garcia Flynn", which combines a Hispanic name with an Irish surname, suggests that the character's ethnicity is ambiguous.  This show is set in a world in which time travel is a reality, so I have no issues accepting that he could be Lucy's father, son, or brother.

You quoted me when you made that comment.  To clarify I never said he was eastern European.  I said he was an eastern European operative with the CIA which the show told us right off the bat.  Just because you are a field operative doesn't necessarily make you from eastern Europe.  Sorry if my wording confused you.

However you add in the reference Wyatt makes to an accent in this episode and you do have a problem explaining the last name of Flynn which sounds either English or Irish to me.

That is what he have on him so far.  He was an operative in eastern Europe in the CIA before he went rogue and he has an accent of some kind and bears the unlikely name of Garcia Flynn.  Garcia adds in a Spanish angle and he spoke fluent Spanish in this episode.  In fact one poster who knows Spanish mentioned a Castillian accent in a post above which makes him more likely European than Latin American via the Garcia name though why it is a first name is still a mystery too ... sigh.  So he seems to have a multi-nationality bloodline like many of us Americans.  But he seems European given his Spanish isn't the kind most spoken in America or taught in most American schools which tend to teach the Latin American Spanish but from the motherland of the language itself, Spain.

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

Was he a willing accomplice or a prisoner? If the former, then now you have the problem of custody.  You can't leave him alone in the capsule and trust him to follow you back to the future, nor does watching him do much good.  Lucy seems to be mostly used for goo goo eyes at the historical figures they meet, so is she going to boss him around?  Wyatt can sit there with a gun on him, but now you have that scenario of "Go ahead and shoot, what are you going to do after I'm dead?"

That is in regards to Anthony and yes he is totally a willing accomplice.  Maybe the original mastermind even.  That was cleared up last week in the Vegas episode.

As far as only Anthony and Rufus being qualified time machine operators?  Well it has been less than a week since all this crazy stuff started remember and a time machine would be really complicated to learn to operate if they had only two qualified pilots so could take weeks if not months to master perhaps.  And the one person remaining to Mason Industries who could train someone to pilot the machine, i.e. Rufus, has been a tad busy lately besides.

There was another pilot once we were told in the first episode but apparently he met himself in the past and only part of his body came back after that encounter.  (That was their throwaway line explanation about it not being a good thing to return to the same scenario twice to attempt a do over cause the odds go way up you meet yourself there with dire consequences).

Of course that throwaway line also asks the question as to what the hell was Mason Industries -- fronting for the Rittenhouse Group apparently -- doing in the past before Flynn and Anthony made off with their high end model time machine.

[saber5055]

Okay, so someone riddle me this: Why is Rufus being forced to tape record (spy) on Wyatt and Lucy? What are they saying/doing that they wouldn't tell everyone they said/did after the Flying Eyeball flew them home? I haven't seen they are doing anything secretive or suspicious, so why is Rufus having to spy on them?

I'd say the Alamo north wall was REALLY weak if the Mexican could ride horses right over the top and into the Alamo yard. What was up with that? And where did Santa Anna get a Friesian (a horse from the Netherlands) to ride?

[saber5055]

And OH YEAH, Wyatt 's buddy Bam Bam was a hottie mac hottie, and looked the part of a bad ass Delta Force guy on top of it. Here's hoping he does replace Wyatt, or at least they let him ride along for some kick-butt eye candy. (Unlike the angst-ridden man-child Wyatt.)

[Trey]

23 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

And OH YEAH, Wyatt 's buddy Bam Bam was a hottie mac hottie, and looked the part of a bad ass Delta Force guy on top of it. Here's hoping he does replace Wyatt, or at least they let him ride along for some kick-butt eye candy. (Unlike the angst-ridden man-child Wyatt.)

I kinda like Wyatt. He reminds me of a young Marc Blucas, as he was on BtVS.  Since I already had Buffy on my mind, when Wyatt was making his speech to the young messenger and said "...the hardest thing is this world...", I fully expected him to finish with "is to live in it." I'm glad he didn't. Also, Jeff Kober, another Buffy alum. I thought he was great as Davy Crockett.

Everything I know about the battle of the Alamo I learned from listening to Ballad of the Alamo - it's been going through my head all day.

Anyhow, I really enjoyed this episode and I love all your comments:-).

[Netfoot]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I get that he`s a soldier and he has a strong sense of right and wrong, and its hard to leave people to die or let bad guys get away with their crimes, but...

This is exactly why he is a terrible choice for this mission!  

I really don't know how he got chosen for the job.  Rufus, because nobody else knows how to Drive Miss Daisy.  Lucy, because she is the only history teacher in the country.  Wyatt, because... they found him at the local 7-11?

[iMonrey]

Quote

Not that a time-travel show should be realistic. But everyone is all, "You can't change history!" so they let Abe Lincoln get murdered yet they will shoot/kill assorted German soldiers and Mexicans, all of whom MAYBE were meant to live. And create Lucy's sister! And father! And fiance! So what's up with not saving Lincoln and the killing everyone else. 

The show is really playing it safe. The pilot caused major changes in Lucy's life. All the episodes since then? Not so much. The show would be so much more interesting if every trip they took into the past caused their present to change in some noticeable way that's evident the minute they step out of that pod.

Quote

I believe (and I don't know if someone on the show mentioned this or I'm fanwanking) that Flynn is picking these moments in time because they're critical not only to U.S./world history, but to the history of Rittenhouse. Maybe he's trying to get someone killed who starts Rittenhouse, or set it up so that the ancestor of a key player puts them in the wrong place to do so. For instance, maybe the person who starts Rittenhouse is a big politician in Texas, and screwing up the Alamo means Texas never comes to be (though count me in with the other viewers who were like, "So?") and that person is now living some other life in Mexico where they can't cause Flynn any trouble. And because he has the diary, he has this intimate knowledge of all these turning points in the organization's history.

Yes but why is he just hopping around so randomly? In other words, his first trip was to 1937 to do . . . whatever. Then his second trip was to 1865. Then 1962, now 1836. I don't get it. Does he have some sort of list of key events in the timeline of Rittenhouse that are rated in importance? So 1937 was the #1 most important event to change, and since that didn't work out, he moved on to the #2 most important which took place in 1865? He's sure not moving in chronological order. How many chance does he get?

Another thing: the military was called in by Mason Industries. General Christopher et. al. apparently do not know about Rittenhouse. Mason does, but I don't think the military does. As far as the military knows, Flynn is just some kook terrorist who wants to screw up history, right? So if Rittenhouse is fine with the military assassinating him, why are they recording Lucy and Wyatt?

Edited November 1, 2016 by iMonrey

[KaveDweller]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The machines are linked, so maybe some sort of overwrite can happen once no one is in control of the mothership.

But if the machines are linked, why can't they just pull back the machine while Flynn is outside of it in the past. Then he'd be stranded there. They'd still have to go back to kill him before he changed history, but it would give him a lot less control.

[dargosmydaddy]

I can't help it... I know this show has its (many) flaws, but I'm really loving it. And I love the main three, including Wyatt, so I'm glad he's not going anywhere.

That said, shouldn't they maybe start training another pilot, you know, just in case? Because I don't want anything to happen to Rufus, but given the nature of their missions, wouldn't it be smart to have a back-up plan?

(I know, I know, this show doesn't do smart well...)

I just read Nathan Hale's Hazardous Tales: Alamo All Stars (a graphic novel version of the Alamo battle), so it was fun to be familiar with the story and characters.

5 hours ago, zibnchy said:

I just realized I don't know if the character's name is Garcia Flynn or Flynn Garcia and I'm too unmotivated to look it up.

It's Garcia Flynn. And while I appreciated our trio keeping it simple this week and using their own names, I thought it was bizarre that Flynn used his own name, rather than introducing himself as Senor Garcia... I have no idea why Santa Anna didn't immediately guffaw over his non-Spanish surname.

[dubbel zout]

19 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

But if the machines are linked, why can't they just pull back the machine while Flynn is outside of it in the past.

Because Max Headroom is in charge of it, and he can probably block any overrides.

[KaveDweller]

31 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The show is really playing it safe. The pilot caused major changes in Lucy's life. All the episodes since then? Not so much. The show would be so much more interesting if every trip they took into the past caused their present to change in some noticeable way that evident the minute they step out of that pod.

Yes but why is he just hopping around so randomly? In other words, his first trip was to 1937 to do . . . whatever. Then his second trip was to 1865. Then 1962, now 1836. I don't get it. Does he have some sort of list of key events in the timeline of Rittenhouse that are rated in importance? So 1937 was the #1 most important event to change, and since that didn't work out, he moved on to the #2 most important which took place in 1865? He's sure not moving in chronological order. How many chance does he get?

Another thing: the military was called in by Mason Industries. General Christopher et. al. apparently do not know about Rittenhouse. Mason does, but I don't think the military does. As far as the military knows, Flynn is just some kook terrorist who wants to screw up history, right? So if Rittenhouse is fine with the military assassinating him, why are they recording Lucy and Wyatt?

He seems to be trying to doom the United States.

1937 - He tried to blow up the Hindenburg on its way home, when he would have killed people involved in planning D-Day. Theoretically this would have made the Allies lose WWII.

1865 - He tried to kill Grant and Johnson, two future presidents. I'm no history expect, but I'm sure they did some things that helped the US and their absence would have caused issues.

1944 - He tried to hand that scientist over to Russia, making the US potentially lose the space race and the Cold War.

1836 - He tried to stop the letter from getting out of the Alamo, leading to Texas not being a state, and probably hurting the US's chance of becoming a superpower.

Maybe Rittenhouse is made up of high-powered people in the US government and Flynn is trying to hurt the country so they won't be so powerful. Maybe next he'll just head back to 1976 and kill George Washington. 

9 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Because Max Headroom is in charge of it, and he can probably block any overrides.

True, but they only just found out he'd be willing to make overrides. They thought he was a prisoner.

Edited November 2, 2016 by KaveDweller

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Okay, so someone riddle me this: Why is Rufus being forced to tape record (spy) on Wyatt and Lucy? What are they saying/doing that they wouldn't tell everyone they said/did after the Flying Eyeball flew them home? I haven't seen they are doing anything secretive or suspicious, so why is Rufus having to spy on them?

I'd say the Alamo north wall was REALLY weak if the Mexican could ride horses right over the top and into the Alamo yard. What was up with that? And where did Santa Anna get a Friesian (a horse from the Netherlands) to ride?

It was.  According to Wikipedia, the north wall was practically a sieve.  It also didn't help that the Mexicans outnumbered the Texians six to one.  The Battle of the Alamo wasn't so much a siege as it was a massacre.

As for your first comment/questions, that information hasn't been revealed yet.

Edited November 2, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Driad]

When Lucy was writing the Very Important Letter, she wrote a little, didn't like it, wadded up the paper, and threw it away.  If you can't get enough food or water, it is not likely that you can get more paper if you run out.  Use the page you started to write a better draft, and when you are satisfied, copy it onto a clean sheet.  A small item, but it seemed as if she was not really trying to think the way people in 1836 did.  Some historian.

[dubbel zout]

That cracked me up. When she was writing and wadding up paper, I was thinking, "Paper was a luxury back then, Lucy!"

[dr pepper]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I hope sooner rather than later we get to understand Flynn's mission and by default understand why he's picking the time periods he is.  Why are these particular times/places so important and how does he figure whatever he does is going to have the real intended outcome.  You can change the past but that doesn't mean the future you want will automatically result.

And the further back you go the bigger the ripple. Change at the Alamo should have meant huge changes in 2016, big enough to swamp out any minor adjustments Flynn might have in mind.

[legaleagle53]

40 minutes ago, Driad said:

When Lucy was writing the Very Important Letter, she wrote a little, didn't like it, wadded up the paper, and threw it away.  If you can't get enough food or water, it is not likely that you can get more paper if you run out.  Use the page you started to write a better draft, and when you are satisfied, copy it onto a clean sheet.  A small item, but it seemed as if she was not really trying to think the way people in 1836 did.  Some historian.

You have to admit, though, that it was very clever of her ultimately not to try to recreate the original letter, but instead to write from her heart and to sign it on behalf of everyone -- the women as well as the men -- who served and fought to defend the Alamo.  I think that would have had an even greater galvanizing effect on the country than the original letter could have, since it put a real face on the massacre and the victims in a way that I don't think even the original letter could have.

[dr pepper]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Look, I know this show is on NBC, not HBO. I know there are forces at work that keep it from being as smart as it could be. I just wish it were about 10% more ambitious. It's too formulaic, too safe. Aside from wiping out her own sister and curing her mother's cancer, Lucy hasn't really done anything, nor have Rufus or Wyatt, or Flynn's team, that really changes history in any significant way. They change little things that keep the timeline essentially the same. I wish their trips in time had more impact on the show - imagine if every time they returned, they found their world just a little bit more different. If different people were working at Mason Industries every time they came back. If a different general was in charge of them every time they came back. It would give the show so much more urgency, wondering what's in store for them every time they come back from a mission. 

Agreed. It would be really cool if the show ended on the words:

 

For in the snapping is the rolling and in the rolling is truth.

 

But i'll settle for changing personnel. And maybe some shenanigans like Wyatt finds out he's still married. But oops, the timeline remembers him as gay. Or Lucy has a sister again. And she's secretly one of Rittenhaus's most ruthless fixers. Or Rufus goes to his office and finds a very nordic looking couple in the picture frame where he expects to see his parents. Or fake Elon Musk doesn't exist and the boss is actually Steve Wozniak, in a cameo as himself.

[dr pepper]

8 hours ago, zibnchy said:

I want more timeline changes. They don't have to be huge. ... Wyatt arrives home to find that, in this reality, he's gay and married.

Oh well. But i refuse to read the whole comment batch just to avoid this happening.

[zibnchy]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

When Lucy was writing the Very Important Letter, she wrote a little, didn't like it, wadded up the paper, and threw it away.  If you can't get enough food or water, it is not likely that you can get more paper if you run out.  Use the page you started to write a better draft, and when you are satisfied, copy it onto a clean sheet.  A small item, but it seemed as if she was not really trying to think the way people in 1836 did.  Some historian.

Wow. I assumed I was the only person who  said (with eyeroll) "Way to go Lucy. I'm sure they probably have tons more paper in the storeroom with the other office supplies."

Here's a twist I want. I want Lucy and Wyatt to be half brother and sister (same father) because the very idea that the show might try to make them romantic  partners is repugnant. Because the actors (and characters) have no chemistry. They have the opposite of chemistry. Rufus and Davy Crockett had more chemistry. And I need them to find out next week before things get really awkward.

[Camera One]

I thought this episode was the most cohesive one so far  The three characters all played a separate but important role in the mission.  I thought the Wyatt backstory fit well with the story of the Alamo.  It is interesting to read about the historical inaccuracies, but on a character level, I thought the dialogue between Wyatt and Bowie, and Rufus and Davy were well written and acted.  It helped that there was limited Flynn, and we didn't have to watch another repeat of everyone walking around looking for Flynn.... maybe that's why I enjoyed this episode more.  That formula was getting old.  I'm also glad we didn't have to see another Flynn/Lucy encounter.  The scene with Lucy and her mother at the end would have worked better if she remembered at the Alamo that her mother was deathly ill in the pilot.

One part which took me out of it was when Lucy was trying to talk to Travis (I think) when they first entered the Alamo.  Her language and way of speaking sounded so modern.  Would it have been normal for her to shake hands with him?

I also thought the episode was cool if only because I made a trip especially to see the Alamo and one of the other nearby missions a couple of years ago.  I watched an ET Canada segment (link in the Media section though I'm not sure if it's viewable in the US) where they interviewed the production designer, art director and costumer regarding this episode, and they did say they did a lot of research looking at early drawings of the Alamo in order to recreate it.  

I couldn't care less who Lucy's father is, so that "mystery" is a total dud.  

Edited November 2, 2016 by Camera One

[bros402]

17 hours ago, AV8n said:

The identity of Lucy's father is somehow relevant to the story, otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery. Flynn seems the most likely candidate, and he did mention to Santa Anna that he was a father. I had previously considered that maybe he was her son, since he supposedly received her journal in the future. I still haven't figured out how he got to the present day without his own time machine, though.

Another possibility is that Lucy's father is the head of the Rittenhouse group (and possibly its namesake). 

They said in the pilot that Flynn killed his wife and children.

[DAngelus]

Not too egregious with the facts this time.  I mean, yes, Bowie was too ill to fight and likely died in his bed, but it's not "Ian Fleming in Germany" or hotels free-floating around Las Vegas crazy, or anything like that.

And Matt Lanter is 33, so it's not impossible for him to be a Master Sergeant.  Seeing him with Bam-Bam really does show how tiny he is, though.  (By contrast, Marc Blucas is 6'4".  He played basketball at Wake Forest with Tim Duncan.  Well, sat on the bench, but close enough.)  Also, he's from Ohio, although he could at least attempt a more Texan (or in this episode, Texian) accent, it's true.

And Rufus really should know that a key reason Americans wanted Texas was to expand slavery.  Palling around with Crockett, much as I've loved Jeff Kober since China Beach, was a bit too much.  I would have loved for Lucy to mention that they needed Texas to become independent so we could provoke the Mexican War nine years later, and capture the entire Southwest.  Run "Manifest Destiny" up the flagpole and see how willing Rufus is to salute.

Edited November 2, 2016 by DAngelus

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, withanaich said:

I believe (and I don't know if someone on the show mentioned this or I'm fanwanking) that Flynn is picking these moments in time because they're critical not only to U.S./world history, but to the history of Rittenhouse. Maybe he's trying to get someone killed who starts Rittenhouse, or set it up so that the ancestor of a key player puts them in the wrong place to do so. For instance, maybe the person who starts Rittenhouse is a big politician in Texas, and screwing up the Alamo means Texas never comes to be (though count me in with the other viewers who were like, "So?") and that person is now living some other life in Mexico where they can't cause Flynn any trouble. And because he has the diary, he has this intimate knowledge of all these turning points in the organization's history.

Even if that's true -- and I'm not ruling it out, because it does make sense -- they still wouldn't be able to point the trio in the right direction proactively without tipping their hand. 

But it also means the entire southwestern US is part of Mexico, including California with its eventual agricultural significance to the entire US as well as international trade (never mind Drumph's imaginary wall).

[withanaich]

That's another possibility. We don't know exactly what significance these specific events/dates have for Rittenhouse (and neither, I suspect, do the writers at this point) but I believe that's what's going on.

Quote

One part which took me out of it was when Lucy was trying to talk to Travis (I think) when they first entered the Alamo.  Her language and way of speaking sounded so modern.  Would it have been normal for her to shake hands with him?

That struck me as odd too. I'm guessing she was just starstruck and forgot the (ostensible) reason she's along for the ride: to keep anachronistic behavior to a minimum and try to recognize who/where/what is going on around the trio so they can avoid stepping on butterflies as much as possible. She was more of a history geek in that encounter than a professional historian. Wyatt actually earned his keep for a second there by jumping in and being more reasonable. And then he ruined it by being smug about it. 

[GoMocs]

I assumed Flynn didn't want the women/children killed not because of Lucy, but because of what he was trying to prevent, the letter. By stopping the letter it was perceived that possibly the US wouldn't have rallied behind the Texans and Texas would have remained part of Mexico. However, if Santa Ana killed all the women and children it would be like in the Battle of the Bulge in WWII when the Germans lined up the US prisoners and shot them all. It would really piss of the US and be even worse than the letter being written.

[TexasGal]

On 11/1/2016 at 8:04 AM, dubbel zout said:

I know. A lot was going on, but it's not as if they grenades were used for an unusual purpose.

Lucy buckled herself in this time! Someone is reading these boards; heh.

The team does a bad job of why it never kills Flynn. This time worked better than others—"the Mexican army was there"—but if we aren't to roll our eyes every time the team is asked, someone needs an answer. I was thinking that Agent Christopher should go on a mission to see exactly what they're all up against. It's not quite as simple as dropping into a new time period and picking off Flynn.

Nice Castilian lisp, Goran!

I really enjoyed listening to his Spanish. </shallow>

Y'all, I'm gonna pretend none of you are suggesting we could live without Texas.

[Trey]

If there were no Texas, would we still have Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, George Strait, Tanya Tucker, Townes Van Zandt, Clint Black, and many, many more country singers? Would life be worth living without them?

Edited November 2, 2016 by Trey

[GoMocs]

Quote

If there were no Texas, would we still have Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, George Strait, Tanya Tucker, Townes Van Zandt, Clint Black, and many, many more country singers? Would life be worth living without them?

We might have all those, but they would be singing in Spanish.....

What is "Delta Dawn" in Spanish? :)

[dubbel zout]

There'd be no Tex-Mex food. That alone is worth having Texas around.

[Netfoot]

You mean, if we gave up Texas, we'd get rid of Country Music?    Where do I sign?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Timeless Takes A Stand At The Alamo

But let's explore some better holiday-themed historical events for our crew to visit.

[green]

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

So if Rittenhouse is fine with the military assassinating him, why are they recording Lucy and Wyatt?

Lucy seems to be key to everything.  She wasn't selected for her knowledge of history after all.  And Flynn likes to spend quality time in most episodes telling her to join his side while he tends to ignore the other two.

Though given how Wyatt would never ever in a million years be cleared for this mission given his PTSD and wife angst plus his proven overall ineptness one wonders why he was recruited. 

Rufus is the only person chosen that makes logical sense because he was the only person for the job period and is good at said job.  The other two have some other reasons they themselves don't know about for being chosen and Rufus needs to monitor them as a result or his family is gonna buy the farm.  What the reasons are, especially Lucy's, is pretty much one of the main core secrets of the show.

16 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

That said, shouldn't they maybe start training another pilot, you know, just in case? Because I don't want anything to happen to Rufus, but given the nature of their

I said in a post above that in their (Mason Industries and the US gov't) modern day time frame it has been maybe around a week since all this craziness all started.  They are never away more than a day or 2 max then back home to catch some zzzzs then off again immediately.  Given it is a complicated time machine, it may take weeks or months to get someone trained.  And the only competent trainer they have is Rufus who has spent the better part of that week elsewheres.

1 hour ago, Trey said:

If there were no Texas, would we still have Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, George Strait, Tanya Tucker, Townes Van Zandt, Clint Black, and many, many more country singers? Would life be worth living without them?

Life would be far MORE worth living!  (Sorry, can't stand country & western music at all.  That's my prejudice and I'm sticking with it).

[Trey]

1 minute ago, green said:

Life would be far MORE worth living!  (Sorry, can't stand country & western music at all.  That's my prejudice and I'm sticking with it).

To each his own:-) Actually, it's only old country I like, don't care for the new stuff at all.

[green]

1 hour ago, Trey said:

To each his own:-) Actually, it's only old country I like, don't care for the new stuff at all.

I hear you. As I said, it is my prejudice.  Just your original post was such a great set-up line I couldn't resist.  Sorry about that.  :-)

[officetemp]

25 minutes ago, Trey said:

To each his own:-) Actually, it's only old country I like, don't care for the new stuff at all.

Yeah, the new stuff just sounds like bad pop music.

I love Western Swing!  Bob Wills, Asleep at the Wheel. . .   Also, Lyle Lovett.  [Yeah, I know:  off-topic.  I'll go back to my corner now. . .]

[JackONeill]

34 minutes ago, green said:

I said in a post above that in their (Mason Industries and the US gov't) modern day time frame it has been maybe around a week since all this craziness all started.  They are never away more than a day or 2 max then back home to catch some zzzzs then off again immediately.  Given it is a complicated time machine, it may take weeks or months to get someone trained.  And the only competent trainer they have is Rufus who has spent the better part of that week elsewheres.

Are you sure that it's only been a week? I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't remember (even though this is a show about time travel) there being much, if any, discussion about...well, time. I mean I see Lucy going home at the end of the day, but I don't know if there any days off that we aren't seeing. Besides, I still don't see any rush to train someone else, even though it seems all of us in TV land seem to appreciate the risk of leaving it solely up to Rufus. Obviously, the story of the week is what is important, but they could include a line being said to both Wyatt and Lucy something like "Protect Rufus with your life. Until we get so-and-so up to speed, he's our only pilot.

[green]

1 hour ago, JackONeill said:

Are you sure that it's only been a week? I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't remember (even though this is a show about time travel) there being much, if any, discussion about...well, time. I mean I see Lucy going home at the end of the day, but I don't know if there any days off that we aren't seeing. Besides, I still don't see any rush to train someone else, even though it seems all of us in TV land seem to appreciate the risk of leaving it solely up to Rufus. Obviously, the story of the week is what is important, but they could include a line being said to both Wyatt and Lucy something like "Protect Rufus with your life. Until we get so-and-so up to speed, he's our only pilot.

Yeah I'm pretty sure.  They were in the Hindenberg scenario over night into the morning of the next day.  Then back and home and sleep and next day rush to 1865.  There I don't think they even overnighted.  Las Vegas was short too.  So was the nazi party at the castle.  This one did they overnight or not?  I forget.  In between they seem to get one night's sleep each time then running off again.  So that says about a week to me.

So I don't think anyone (1) could be trained quickly and (2) the one trainer is always out of the current time stream or is sleeping.

Also Mason doesn't want Rufus not to go every time because of the recording stuff he is forcing him do.

No incentive (Rufus must record so no one else is wanted) + super sophisticated machinery not easy to learn quickly + the one pilot who could train another is never around and/or awake = no back-up being trained to me.

[ChromaKelly]

16 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

He seems to be trying to doom the United States.

 

Maybe Flynn should bring a cache of weapons to the Native Americans who were there at Columbus's landing?

[dubbel zout]

Or the smallpox vaccine?

[sjohnson]

Santa Anna was correct about how slaughtering everyone was the only way to keep the letter from getting out. Presumably this is meant to show Garcia Flynn is not EEEEEVIL but an anti-hero. 

[MzLiz]

I like Wyatt! No getting rid of him! I love how he sought Lucy out to help her when she was freaking out (last week?). And it was nice to see her return the favor this week.

Edited November 2, 2016 by MzLiz
Typo

[iMonrey]

Quote

1937 - He tried to blow up the Hindenburg on its way home, when he would have killed people involved in planning D-Day. Theoretically this would have made the Allies lose WWII.

1865 - He tried to kill Grant and Johnson, two future presidents. I'm no history expect, but I'm sure they did some things that helped the US and their absence would have caused issues.

1944 - He tried to hand that scientist over to Russia, making the US potentially lose the space race and the Cold War.

1836 - He tried to stop the letter from getting out of the Alamo, leading to Texas not being a state, and probably hurting the US's chance of becoming a superpower.

See - here's the thing. Presumably, Flynn did not expect Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus to follow him to 1937 and screw up his plans. Right? So why would he go to 1937 first, and then 1865 second? Had Lucy & Co. not followed him, and had his plan in 1937 been successful, whatever he meant to do in 1865 could potentially wipe out whatever he did in 1937. It doesn't make any sense to do something to change history in one year then go back further in time and change something else, whether he's trying to screw up US history, wipe out Rittenhouse, or both. 

Therefore, I can only guess that whatever he's trying to do, he thought he could do in 1937. And since Lucy & Co. foiled his plans for 1937, and since he's not allowed to go back again for a "do-over," he had to move on to Plan B - which is screw up something in 1865. And since Lucy & Co. foiled that plan, he had to move on to Plan C, etc. 

These can't be sequential events. If there's nobody following him and foiling his plans, the jumping back and forth like this doesn't make any cohesive sense.

Quote

Seeing him with Bam-Bam really does show how tiny he is, though.  (By contrast, Marc Blucas is 6'4".

Wait - was Bam Bam played by Marc Blucas? I didn't recognize him. 

Quote

If there were no Texas, would we still have Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, George Strait, Tanya Tucker, Townes Van Zandt, Clint Black, and many, many more country singers?

Probably some of them would still be around. If Texas never became a state, then their ancestors probably never moved there, from wherever they came from originally. (At any rate, I'm willing to take the risk. :-) )