S03.E06: Is Someone Really Dead?

[Eolivet]

Completely random, but I loved how Davis signed Annalise's name -- I was always fascinated with handwriting analysis, and I remember reading that if you strike the T so it crosses out the rest of the letters, you don't like yourself very much. I have no doubt Davis has read the same thing and applied to her character.

Unless I completely miss my guess, I see huge, blinking signs that Wes is dead -- even moreso than Frank. Connor and Bonnie calling him out as the reason all of this happened. Every mess they're in is his fault, and if he's dead, there's nobody left to blame. I don't know what more they can wring out of Wes, quite frankly. And having experienced surprise TV deaths before, when the cast says it's "devastating," it's usually the simplest explanation. If you have Keating 5 actors saying they're devastated, it's likely someone from the Keating 5 whose character has died.

After tonight, I think there's a lot to be mined from Frank's return, especially if Laurel is pregnant with Wes' baby -- and now given what happened between him and Bonnie in Coalport. I just don't see very many storylines after this for Wes. And I think Meggy may be being set up as a Keating 5 replacement, too.

I also don't see what's-his-face as a Connor replacement -- I think he's a midgame romance for Oliver. He's the Finn or the Rose to Coliver's Merder (for the long-time Grey's Anatomy fans). Either that or he's totally up to no good.

[tennisgurl]

So now Asher is now officially alive. Good for him. The guy has grown on me, and I weirdly like him and Michaela, what can I say? I liked all their stuff tonight, and they have good chemistry. And I love Connor, Asher and Michaela doing their threes company thing in Michaelas apartment. 

I also cracked up at Michaela doing her best Mean Girls impression on Laurel in the courtroom. YOU CANT SIT WITH US! Then random jerk guy actually called them Mean Girls! Speaking of, I hope random jerk guy does not replace Wes or Connor, if one of them die. He would be a poor replacement for either of them. The guy is hardly interesting as a mild antagonist, let alone as a main character. 

I am still calling Nate under the sheet. He just dosnt have much to do, and Wes and Connor still have lots of good stories in them. 

[love2lovebadtv]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

With his biological father dead and his brother arrested, it seems to me that Wes should be retaining a lawyer to claim a share of his father's vast estate.

But if Wes does that, then would it come up that he wasn't just asking him for directions?  

29 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So now Asher is now officially alive. Good for him. The guy has grown on me, and I weirdly like him and Michaela, what can I say? I liked all their stuff tonight, and they have good chemistry. And I love Connor, Asher and Michaela doing their threes company thing in Michaelas apartment. 

I also cracked up at Michaela doing her best Mean Girls impression on Laurel in the courtroom. YOU CANT SIT WITH US! Then random jerk guy actually called them Mean Girls! Speaking of, I hope random jerk guy does not replace Wes or Connor, if one of them die. He would be a poor replacement for either of them. The guy is hardly interesting as a mild antagonist, let alone as a main character. 

I am still calling Nate under the sheet. He just dosnt have much to do, and Wes and Connor still have lots of good stories in them. 

I totally agree re: Asher and Asher+Michaela and Asher+Connor+Michaela.  Both Asher and Michaela thought they would have different lives but they could bring out the best in each other. Asher was brought up wealthy and is now reduced to being an RA but he's making the most of it. Michaela thought she had risen above everything but she could learn from Asher not to look down on people so much. I also think they really care about each other. 

And I, too, loved the Mean Girls nod.  They're acting like real classmates/friends, which makes so much more sense than two episodes in when they were chopping up a body and covering for each other without really knowing each other. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by love2lovebadtv

[love2lovebadtv]

1 hour ago, Lyndy said:

Thing is, Annalise lost it when she saw who the dead guy was, right? I can't honestly see her reacting that way to anyone but Nate or Wes. Certainly not Frank unless something major happens to change her feelings about him. And she might be protecting the original 5 but no way she's that emotionally invested in Conner. I just don't see it.

Remember, Annalise is just as good an actress as Viola Davis. 

[Milaxx]

56 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

I also don't see what's-his-face as a Connor replacement -- I think he's a midgame romance for Oliver. He's the Finn or the Rose to Coliver's Merder (for the long-time Grey's Anatomy fans).

I completely agree with this.  Part of making a tv romance interesting is to set up road blocks like this.

4 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Remember, Annalise is just as good an actress as Viola Davis. 

Especially if she had something to do with the fire. I suspect she had the house burned down. For all we know the person under the sheet could have been dead before the fire. 

[TwistedandBored]

16 hours ago, nutty1 said:

I am in the minority of wanting it to be Nate under the sheet. I'd hate to break up the original 6, and Frank entertains me.

I am with you. I want Nate to be the one who dies this season. 

[secnarf]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

With his biological father dead and his brother arrested, it seems to me that Wes should be retaining a lawyer to claim a share of his father's vast estate.

 

3 hours ago, Milaxx said:

He'd have to prove paternity and contest the will. I'm not sure if he's up for the circus that would be. IIRC Wallace Mahooney's wife was none too fond of Wes's mom Rose and a bit of a ball buster.

Also I don't think anybody would buy that he just HAPPENED to ask his biological father for directions, of all the people in NYC.

 

2 hours ago, jaigurudeva said:

HCG can be detected in the blood two weeks after conception, but it still can't be Wes' baby, because three weeks hence the doctors were using ultrasound to monitor the baby's heartbeat, and a fetus doesn't develop a heart until weeks 6-8.

The ultrasound didn't actually show a heartbeat. WE know Laurel is very early on in the pregnancy, but the ER doctors wouldn't. hCG varies so much between women that it's not a very good way of gauging how far along Laurel is. I didn't at all get the impression they were monitoring a heartbeat. I think they were just doing further investigation to confirm pregnancy and estimate the gestational age.

[Xazeal]

I found this episode kind of exhausting. I've decided that I unironically love the show, and I've enjoyed the season so far, but this one was a mess. I feel like they've lost the plot a little bit, but they usually find a way to tighten it up for the reveal. 

Asher/Michaela and Laurel/Wes were very melodramatic and annoying tonight. I'm generally a fan of the former, but both pairings bugged the crap out of me in this one. Connor was whiny and sad. Generally a pretty bad showing for the Keating 5, who I usually like.

There's no way Connor is dead. Nate is the most expendable, but he's really detached from what's happening right now and his death wouldn't really have an impact. So it's either Frank, with Wes as the replacement love interest for Laurel, or it's Wes, with flyer boy as the replacement K5 member. I prefer the latter scenario, as long as Laurel permanently dumps Frank, because I need her to have a storyline that doesn't revolve around a guy.

[rubyred]

It kinda bugged me that everyone was piling on Wes that the whole clusterfuck is "his fault." Yes, Wes killed Sam - in the heat of a very fucked up moment. But Annaliese was the one who convinced them all to cover it up. That is the secret that binds them together, so in my view it's Annaliese's "fault." I think the manslaughter wasn't the catalyst, the coverup was.

I still don't want it to be Wes under the sheet. I get why people are tired of the character or just don't care about him (don't share that sentiment, obvs) but I can't picture this show deliberately getting rid of the opportunities for the squicky "are they going to kiss, don't kiss!!!" moments that Annaliese and Wes seem to have every season. Her relationship with Frank is clearly intriguing for its dysfunction and ambivalence, but there is a connection that Annaliese feels towards Wes (which I don't think he necessarily shares, at least not at the same depth) that she doesn't have with Frank. Although I did like Frank and Anna's first meeting, Charlie Weber did a great job with that scene.

I love the little touches on this show. Like potato chips for dinner. And "Cotton-eyed Joe."

[msani19]

I'm starting to think it might be new guy under the sheet. The hysterical reaction we see from Annalise in the flash forwards is just our girl doing her thing and truly selling it for the police and the cameras. At first, I thought maybe it was Wes or Nate, but that could be my bias cause I'm uninterested in both of them. 

My eyes couldn't have rolled harder seeing Laurel/Wes together, and now they are going to have a baby? Sure, that'll add some good drama, but I'm not here for it. Laurel just drives me crazy, I don't know what it is. Every time I see her, I want to turn the channel, she's like a dead eyed cat to me. Meggy is better off without him, let Laurel have him. 

Michaela & Asher have strangely grown on me. Again some of my bias here to cause I really like Matt McGorry. 

[Milaxx]

22 minutes ago, rubyred said:

 

It kinda bugged me that everyone was piling on Wes that the whole clusterfuck is "his fault." Yes, Wes killed Sam - in the heat of a very fucked up moment. But Annaliese was the one who convinced them all to cover it up. That is the secret that binds them together, so in my view it's Annaliese's "fault." I think the manslaughter wasn't the catalyst, the coverup was.

 

IIRC no one knows that Annalise told Wes to dispose of Sam's body. As far as they are concerned it is his fault. 1.) Because he was involved/covering for Rebecca and 2) In defending her he did deliver the fatal blow that killed Sam, and then 3) Talked them all into covering it up. Because we have a global view we as viewers are aware of Annalis'e part in this, Bonnie & the K5 are not.

22 minutes ago, rubyred said:

I love the little touches on this show. Like potato chips for dinner. And "Cotton-eyed Joe."

I do too. It's another touch Norwalk seems to have learned from Shonda. Annalise had chip & vodka compared to Olivia's Pope's popcorn & wine. I also think the writer's love any excuse to let Matt loose to dance.

11 minutes ago, msani19 said:

My eyes couldn't have rolled harder seeing Laurel/Wes together, and now they are going to have a baby? Sure, that'll add some good drama, but I'm not here for it. Laurel just drives me crazy, I don't know what it is. Every time I see her, I want to turn the channel, she's like a dead eyed cat to me. Meggy is better off without him, let Laurel have him. 

Who's to say she has the baby? There are other options; miscarriage (which I personally think would be the easy out for the writers), abortion and adoption. Personally I can't imagine Laurel having a baby while she's in the middle of law school. 

[msani19]

1 minute ago, Milaxx said:

Who's to say she has the baby? There are other options; miscarriage (which I personally think would be the easy out for the writers), abortion and adoption. Personally I can't imagine Laurel having a baby while she's in the middle of law school. 

You know I didn't think of those options, and it would be really hard to have a baby in law school (one of my friends did it, but only by the skin of her teeth & tremendous help from their families). Especially hard if she stays part of the K5. Considering that we see her in the hospital, there's a chance she loses the baby. 

[twoods]

Finally got my Wes and Lauren, but their scenes were too short. They weren't the usual HTGAWM "slam up against the door" sex, but I liked how sweet they were. I hope they explore their relationship more and Wes isn't dead.

I also didn't realize until last night how much I enjoyed Michaela and Asher. She needs someone she can trust after her last few relationships, and he needs someone too. 

Anxiously waiting the next two weeks- no matter who winds up dead I will be bummed because I enjoy everyone (although Conner has been more annoying than usual lately). I wonder after the death is revealed what the second half storyline will be- finding out who set the fire?

[DearEvette]

Asher dancing to Cotton Eye Joe was everything, especially since the scene started with no context.  I Especially like the leg kicks on top of the bed and then the cherry on top was Connor swanning in wearing Michaela's robe. 

My husband has only ever seen Matt McGorry in Orange is the New Black and he said "I always get surprised when I see he has two legs."

I do like that they are moving A&M into a real relationship.  I like it when goofy Asher takes a back seat to serious Asher.

I think  all the signs pointing to Connor being dead is a red herring.  He seems almost too obvious.  I still am going with Frank or Wes.

Was not expecting Wes and Laurel just yet and quite like that. They were surprisingly hot together.  Hmm, go figure.

[rubyred]

2 hours ago, Milaxx said:

IIRC no one knows that Annalise told Wes to dispose of Sam's body. As far as they are concerned it is his fault. 1.) Because he was involved/covering for Rebecca and 2) In defending her he did deliver the fatal blow that killed Sam, and then 3) Talked them all into covering it up. Because we have a global view we as viewers are aware of Annalis'e part in this, Bonnie & the K5 are not.

Oh. Oh. I thought everyone knew that the "hide Sam's body" deal was Annaliese's instruction to Wes. Can't remember now how that went down, especially because of all the flashbacks and flash forwards we've had to endure each season. 

As for how Sam got dead, it could just have easily been when Michaela hip-checked him over the banister. I'm not saying he didn't kill him, I'm just saying that the context was a little more complicated than "you killed Sam so it's all your fault my life is shit." They all co-signed on the coverup and they're all adults, so it would be nice if they'd just own it instead of blame-shifting. But I can see how being accessories to murder can be stressful, so...

I can't see this show with a baby on board, so I'm expecting Laurel to lose the baby because of smoke inhalation etc. Please show, no baby.

Can someone explain Frank's thought process on bringing Wes to Mahoney's assassination? How was that supposed to neutralize Annaliese instead of antagonize her? I still don't get it.

I liked the Laurel/Wes hookup, but is that a height differential or what? They could barely keep both of their heads in the frame for the closeup.

[FormerMod-a1]

If Wes hadn't fallen in love after one glance of mopey girl across the hall, this would have all been very different.  Some girl is dismissive of you after a minute of interaction and you're in love? obsessed?  something?  WTH?  But that's Wes. 

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, rubyred said:

As for how Sam got dead, it could just have easily been when Michaela hip-checked him over the banister. I'm not saying he didn't kill him, I'm just saying that the context was a little more complicated than "you killed Sam so it's all your fault my life is shit." They all co-signed on the coverup and they're all adults, so it would be nice if they'd just own it instead of blame-shifting. But I can see how being accessories to murder can be stressful, so...

That only stunned him. Michaela was freaking out and Sam got up and was on top of Rebecca choking  her. Wes grabbed the statue and hit him on the head and that's what killed him.  Regardless  they did indeed go along with it.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Milaxx

[FormerMod-a1]

Yes, they all stupidly, and imo unbelievably, went along with the cover up.  I almost quit watching during that ep, but then we got the ending with Annalise and I decided to keep watching.  I am so glad I did.  This is one of my must watch shows.

[possibilities]

We had an electricity outage last night and I wasn't able to watch til tonight. My degree of upset over being made to wait let me know I'm waaaaay too invested. And the degree to which I'm dreading losing one of the characters makes it even clearer. It's getting worse, not better, too-- i.e. I am dreading the loss more each episode, because I'm getting more and more invested in each of them as the season goes on.

Most shows with a mystery provide one strong and maybe one other weak alternative answer. This show provides several equally plausible and equally painful options and is masterful at manipulating me into giving a shit about it.

I don't think Oliver needed technical help with the dating app. He was just having trouble deciding what to say, and Michaela was ghostwriting for him. I like Oliver's date. The only solution now is for the two of them + Connor to have a threeway marriage. But new dude needs to be a criminal first, so they don't have to keep secrets. (Please don't kill Connor)

Bonnie is as good a liar as Annalise. The two of them are impossible to parse.

[Panopticon]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Asher dancing to Cotton Eye Joe was everything, especially since the scene started with no context.  I Especially like the leg kicks on top of the bed and then the cherry on top was Connor swanning in wearing Michaela's robe. 

 

Right?  I was torn by being a little annoyed that Asher was still pushing Michaela in that way... and being seriously impressed by how high he was kicking up his legs, lol. 

[J.D.]

The latest rumor is that the body under the sheet is Nate -- BUT -- that Laurel ends up dying and that THAT's the death that devastated the cast because they thought she was in the clear of surviving. AND... since they're making it look as if Wes is Laurel's baby's daddy, the rumor is that it really ends up being Frank's and so Annalise later gets to say that she (actually her house) got even with Frank for killing her baby by killing his baby, ....the baby Laurel's carrying.

[Milaxx]

2 minutes ago, J.D. said:

The latest rumor is that the body under the sheet is Nate -- BUT -- that Laurel ends up dying and that THAT's the death that devastated the cast because they thought she was in the clear of surviving. AND... since they're making it look as if Wes is Laurel's baby's daddy, the rumor is that it really ends up being Frank's and so Annalise later gets to say that she (actually her house) got even with Frank for killing her baby by killing his baby, ....the baby Laurel's carrying.

Is there a source for this rumor or is this just speculation?

[Black Knight]

22 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

Wow, is Bonnie a glutton for punishment. She takes AK's abuse week after week, low blow after lower blow. My god.

I continue to not understand Annalise and Bonnie's relationship, and I mean that in a good way - I find it fascinating. Annalise was right about Bonnie sleeping with Frank, but the way she kept evoking it with "spread your legs" was weird. Like, okay Annalise, you're really focused on Bonnie having sex. And when Bonnie told Annalise she came back to be with her and she loves her, it reminded me of S1 where she was on her hands and knees weeping and begging Annalise. And I thought it interesting when Annalise stated she didn't mind being made a fool of by men but not by Bonnie. Finally, I had to laugh when Annalise said something about being the only one who shows Bonnie love - yeah, she'd been nicer to Bonnie this season up until this episode, but if she really thinks she's shown Bonnie much love in the last couple of years she seriously needs a clue. Maybe she confuses her continual abuse as tough love or something.

I'd greatly prefer if the writers never actually fully explained their warped dynamic or how they got so stuck on each other. I like the mystery of it.

I like Wes and Laurel. Really, I'm good with anything that keeps her away from Frank. I hated that pairing.

I never thought for a second Asher might be the dead one, so this episode didn't narrow the mystery down for me. I feel like they want us to think it's Wes, meaning it's not. I'd like it to be Nate so that the show's rid of his uselessness, but I'm currently leaning towards Frank being it.

[Black Knight]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

So you get that vibe, too right? Even back in season 1 when Bonnie is crying over kissing Sam, I was wondering what made Annalisse madder - that Bonnie kissed Sam or that Bonnie kissed Sam, if that makes any sense?

Oh, totally. It's part of what makes them so delightfully confusing for me. Annalise is jealous when it comes to Bonnie, there's no question about that, but in exactly which way(s) is unclear. Bonnie is head over heels for Annalise, but in what sense is unclear. But it's always coming down to them and men. Bonnie picked Annalise over Sam in S1, but Annalise is still mad about that even now, we found out (with yet another "spread your legs" comment). Bonnie ran off to Frank in the last episode and Annalise is mad about that, natch. But it even evinces itself in smaller, less dramatic ways - like Nate throwing out Annalise's junk food and Bonnie saving it, which earned her an "I love you" from Annalise. Or Annalise offering to make Nate sleep elsewhere one night so that she and Bonnie could stay in her bed watching movies. It's always a choice between one of them and a man. Is Bonnie actually in love with Annalise? Is Annalise attracted to Bonnie, is she a disapproving mother figure, or does she just have a gaping need to be the center of someone's universe and the most plausible candidate is Bonnie due to her lack of self-worth? Who the hell knows? Their dynamic is just deeply, and entertainingly, weird. Like I said, I don't want it explained. An explanation would be necessarily reductive, and thus take away some of the layers of the most complex relationship on the show.

[Happytobehere]

7 hours ago, rubyred said:

It kinda bugged me that everyone was piling on Wes that the whole clusterfuck is "his fault." Yes, Wes killed Sam - in the heat of a very fucked up moment. But Annaliese was the one who convinced them all to cover it up. That is the secret that binds them together, so in my view it's Annaliese's "fault." I think the manslaughter wasn't the catalyst, the coverup was.

No, they were planning on covering the murder up and Annalise helped them along.  They were in the process of the coverup when Wes returned to the house and Annalise was there; hence them not calling the police.  Annalise can't be blamed for a plot they put in motion before she was ever on the scene.  They are the makers of their own downfall and lie and blame Annalise to assuage their guilt and absolve themselves of culpability; we should not be doing the same.

Michaela was the only on who wanted to back out of the scheme and theoretically do the right thing.  It is in these moments where we first see Connor and Laurel threatening and intimidating Michaela if she dares to tell the truth and upset their pre-set apple carts of life.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Happytobehere
Forgot Michaela part and I thin the body move came after Wes returned for the murder weapon -- correct me if Im wrong

[Happytobehere]

12 minutes ago, doram said:

Thank you. 

See my amendments to initial post.

[rubyred]

36 minutes ago, Happytobehere said:

No, they were planning on covering the murder up and Annalise helped them along.  They were in the process of the coverup when Wes returned to the house and Annalise was there; hence them not calling the police.  Annalise can't be blamed for a plot they put in motion before she was ever on the scene.  They are the makers of their own downfall and lie and blame Annalise to assuage their guilt and absolve themselves of culpability; we should not be doing the same.

Michaela was the only on who wanted to back out of the scheme and theoretically do the right thing.  It is in these moments where we first see Connor and Laurel threatening and intimidating Michaela if she dares to tell the truth and upset their pre-set apple carts of life.

Thanks, this is refreshing my memory...but then how did they arrive at the decision to hide Sam's body right after he was killed? I remember Wes standing there in a fugue state, but then they all left, and then he came back and said "sorry" to Sam's body and Annaliese said "don't be." So I guess I was under the impression that the plan of how to get rid of Sam came from Annaliese's instructions but now I'm confused as to why they didn't take Sam with them to begin with.  Did I imagine Wes eventually telling the rest of the K5 that Annaliese had told him what to do for the coverup?

To be fair, I think they all have varying levels of culpability, either as accessories or as perpetrators. I just don't feel like it's a single line to one person to blame. In fact if that were the case you could blame Sam, because he was the one with a dick pic on Lila's phone, so he started the whole mess but that would be victim-blaming and I'm not here for that. Blaming Wes because his love for Rebecca put them in that situation -- that doesn't wash for me. To me that's like blaming Wes because Annaliese favored him for mysterious reasons of which he himself was not aware. He's an easy target because he's still so damn opaque as a character (which I hate). But then there are glimpses of hidden things going on with him -- like the fact that he lied even to Rebecca about his mother, saying he was born in Haiti and his mother committed suicide, which was not the case. He stood over his mother's body, he knew she hadn't done that to herself, right? I mean damn, was Wes born in Haiti? Or is he actually the biggest sociopath of all of them, in plain sight?

[racked]

So Oliver inexplicably dumps Connor, decides to work for Connor's employer, all after screwing up his chances to transfer schools, and now he's flaunting his dates in front of him but Connor is somehow in the wrong here? I hope these two never get back together but Connor gets an actual love interest that helps him grow instead of feeding his abandonment issues. 

That at said I found Oliver and his dates makeout scene really hot. That dude is totally up to no good though. 

I'd be so sad if Wes died! I know he's an idiot but I love AE's sweet pretty face. Let it be Nate. Cause I would miss Frank too. 

[blackwing]

I think Viola Davis confirmed that she didn't even know who was under the sheet, it was a mannequin. Which suggests that when she was screaming in anguish over the dead body, she didn't know who it was, assuming the scenes were filmed at the same time.   My fear is that it is Drake under the sheet.  Which would be a total cop out on the show's part.  

Given that Michaela and Asher are worried that Connor is dead, I doubt it's him.  So Nate or Wes.   Please be Wed.  I hate that this show revolves around him.

Tonight I finally recognised that Atwood is played by the actress who played the terrific Kim Martinez on "Strike Back".  Unfortunately, we also got that horrible actress who played the army ranger lady Daniela on "Zoo".  And here, she also played an army lady named Daniela.  She's got range.

[Milaxx]

15 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

No, they were planning on covering the murder up and Annalise helped them along.  They were in the process of the coverup when Wes returned to the house and Annalise was there; hence them not calling the police.  Annalise can't be blamed for a plot they put in motion before she was ever on the scene.  They are the makers of their own downfall and lie and blame Annalise to assuage their guilt and absolve themselves of culpability; we should not be doing the same.

Michaela was the only on who wanted to back out of the scheme and theoretically do the right thing.  It is in these moments where we first see Connor and Laurel threatening and intimidating Michaela if she dares to tell the truth and upset their pre-set apple carts of life.

That's right! They had already moved the body when Wes went back to retrieve the staute and ran into Annalise.  Later Connor & Micheala were ready to crack and Laurel told Annalise who stopped them, but the plan to hide the body was theirs,Annalise just helped with details so they wouldn't get caught. In fact if they had completed the job and incinerated the remains after they had chopped it up and burned it, there would have been no remains to be found later. 

14 hours ago, racked said:

So Oliver inexplicably dumps Connor, decides to work for Connor's employer, all after screwing up his chances to transfer schools, and now he's flaunting his dates in front of him but Connor is somehow in the wrong here? I hope these two never get back together but Connor gets an actual love interest that helps him grow instead of feeding his abandonment issues. 

That at said I found Oliver and his dates makeout scene really hot. That dude is totally up to no good though. 

I'd be so sad if Wes died! I know he's an idiot but I love AE's sweet pretty face. Let it be Nate. Cause I would miss Frank too. 

Oliver isn't really flaunting his dates. In fact he specifically told Connor he wasn't dating. Connor just happened to come in when he was talking to Michaela. Connor's never going to have a healthy relationship unless he's truthful.  Coliver was built on lies and toppled under the weight of those lies. It's the one thing Wes got right in breaking it off with Meggy. He can't be honest with her and it's not fair. I like Coliver but it won't work unless Connor come clean.  Even then who knows if Oliver can accept all the misdeeds the k5 have done?

Edited October 29, 2016 by Milaxx

[Cranberry]

11 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Especially if she had something to do with the fire. I suspect she had the house burned down. For all we know the person under the sheet could have been dead before the fire. 

I wouldn't be surprised. Burning down the house could not only cover up a previously-dead body, but she could also collect the insurance money. She mentioned getting rid of the house during her conversation with Eve a couple of episodes ago:

"I really need to retire."

"The Sam insurance money is that good?"

"I spent it all. I could sell the house."

"Oh, God, yes, do that."

"I've lived in here forever."

"Yeah, and look what happened."

[penelope79]

I still don't believe the body under the sheet will be Wes or Connor. My money is still on either Frank or Nate.

Maybe it will turn out to be just me overanalyzing things but I think that DA Atwood, the newest Annalise's nemesis and the one who is dating Nate at the moment, could be Meggy's aunt. She mentioned to Wes her aunt was a lawyer before their break-up, which seems to me so random in a show where most of the characters are lawyers or studying law, that made me wonder whether we already ran into her. And then I realized that Meggy and Atwood even look alike and, given the screentime the latter is having episode after episode, and that there's a reason for sure (from a narrative POV) if now Nate is dating her, I dare to say that's how Nate will be involved into the burning house mess. Of course, if true, I have no idea how the whole thing could play out.

 

Love Wes/Laurel and Asher/Michaela!

[Happytobehere]

7 hours ago, rubyred said:

Thanks, this is refreshing my memory...but then how did they arrive at the decision to hide Sam's body right after he was killed? I remember Wes standing there in a fugue state, but then they all left, and then he came back and said "sorry" to Sam's body and Annaliese said "don't be." So I guess I was under the impression that the plan of how to get rid of Sam came from Annaliese's instructions but now I'm confused as to why they didn't take Sam with them to begin with.  Did I imagine Wes eventually telling the rest of the K5 that Annaliese had told him what to do for the coverup?

To be fair, I think they all have varying levels of culpability, either as accessories or as perpetrators. I just don't feel like it's a single line to one person to blame. In fact if that were the case you could blame Sam, because he was the one with a dick pic on Lila's phone, so he started the whole mess but that would be victim-blaming and I'm not here for that. Blaming Wes because his love for Rebecca put them in that situation -- that doesn't wash for me. To me that's like blaming Wes because Annaliese favored him for mysterious reasons of which he himself was not aware. He's an easy target because he's still so damn opaque as a character (which I hate). But then there are glimpses of hidden things going on with him -- like the fact that he lied even to Rebecca about his mother, saying he was born in Haiti and his mother committed suicide, which was not the case. He stood over his mother's body, he knew she hadn't done that to herself, right? I mean damn, was Wes born in Haiti? Or is he actually the biggest sociopath of all of them, in plain sight?

The plan was to make it look like Sam was the victim of a random crime. There was some big Campos's event going on and they hoped the police would think he walked in on a burglar who assumed he would be at the bonfire.  That's why they made the point of videoing themselves at the bonfire, as it was suppposed to be their alibi if someone remembered the car being at the house on the night of the murder.  Wes went back to get the trophy when they realized its discovery would implicate them.  That's when he saw Annalise.  Yes, she was trying to protect herself as she would have been the most logical suspect, but I believe and all we have seen supports that she was protecting the K5, and most specifically Wes, who actually killed Sam.  And yes, the K5 know that Annalise concocted the scheme with Wes when he went back to the house.

If we want to assign blame for Sam's murder that looks at the totality of the situation, it actually goes back to Nate because he was the one who planted the idea in that awful Rebecca's head to get evidence against Sam (at least I'm vaguely remembering the conversation that put her on that road). She was illegally in his house, refused to leave and was stealing Sam's property. As much as Sam was a sleaze, he was the victim in that scenario as he was defending himself against intruders. Had he not died and the police got involved, they most likely would have been arrested.

Wes's mother did commit suicide.  That's what he was told and that's what he believes.  Wes believing he was born in Haiti is a result of his mother lying to keep his paternity from him. Wes was a little boy, who was understandably traumatized by the death of the only person he had in this world.  Nothing he told Rebecca was a lie because as far as he knew at the time, that was the truth. He didn't change his name to cover something up, his name was changed by an adult on the belief that it would give him a fresh start.  While I will never understand his interest in and attraction to Rebecca, I don't think their is anything from his stated backstory that can label him a sociopath.  Even his shooting of Annalise, which I hated, doesn't support this conclusion because once again, he acted in the moment based on what he believed. He then institutionalized himself to deal with the fact that he knew he was spiraling out of control. It was the shooting of Annalise and the site of another black woman in  a pool of blood that caused his repressed memories about his mother's death to resurface. Is Wes an occasionally emo pain in the ass, yes; sociopath, for now, I say no.

[Happytobehere]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

Tonight I finally recognised that Atwood is played by the actress who played the terrific Kim Martinez on "Strike Back".  Unfortunately, we also got that horrible actress who played the army ranger lady Daniela on "Zoo".  And here, she also played an army lady named Daniela.  She's got range.

I think that actress also plays Bunchy's wife on Ray Donovan and she is beyond awful there as well. Every time I see her, I wonder how she keeps getting work.

[darkestboy]

More twists and turns. Frank framing the other Mahoney kid was well played. I did not see that coming.

Wes could be the baby daddy but Frank is also coming back, so I guess we're so sure yet, are we with Laurel?

So this week we had Wes/Laurel, Michaela/Asher, Oliver/Thomas (I like him) and Nate telling Annalise about him and Renee.

While there's a degree of truth in Connor's anger for Wes, he forgets that everyone has played a role in things being the way they are for the lot of them.

Bonnie certainly takes a lot of crap from Annalise but she also dished some out at Wes as well.

Really want to know about Michaela's mommy issues. Laughed at Asher dancing to Cotton Eyed Joe and Connor wearing Michaela's bathrobe.

Simon, not sure what they're doing with him but I don't mind him being around too much, 8/10

[starri]

23 hours ago, Neurochick said:

This episode takes place 3 weeks before the fire, would Meggie be able to tell that Laurel is pregnant?

Medical-grade pregnancy tests can detected it within a week of conception.

I'm not sure that the acupuncturist is exactly a new love interest for Oliver.  We know he still has feelings for Connor given his frantic calling after the fire, so I'm not taking that as proof that Connor is the body.  And honestly, I'm not sure I'm going to continue watching the show if he is.

[tvfanatic13]

THANK you Happytobehere! That's where I know her from and, yes, she is awful.

[Dancingjaneway]

I wonder if during the search and cleanup of the house they will find anything interesting(ie body parts, skeletal remains, and the like) that could lead to an investigation being re-opened or a new one. 

[Milaxx]

7 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

He then institutionalized himself to deal with the fact that he knew he was spiraling out of control. It was the shooting of Annalise and the site of another black woman in  a pool of blood that caused his repressed memories about his mother's death to resurface. Is Wes an occasionally emo pain in the ass, yes; sociopath, for now, I say no.

You're on point except for this bit. Wes didn't institutionalize himself. He was triggered by shooting Annalise and her calling out his birth name. As a result he wasn't sleeping and went to the school's health services to get something to sleep. An over zealous resident didn't like what she heard and he was placed on an involuntary medical hold. Laurel tried unsuccessfully to get him out and appealed to Annalise for help to no avail. Wes was eventually released at the end of the hold. (FYI - That varies state to state but can be anywhere from 48 - 72 hours.)

[rubyred]

7 hours ago, Happytobehere said:

Wes's mother did commit suicide.  That's what he was told and that's what he believes.  Wes believing he was born in Haiti is a result of his mother lying to keep his paternity from him. Wes was a little boy, who was understandably traumatized by the death of the only person he had in this world.  Nothing he told Rebecca was a lie because as far as he knew at the time, that was the truth. He didn't change his name to cover something up, his name was changed by an adult on the belief that it would give him a fresh start.  While I will never understand his interest in and attraction to Rebecca, I don't think their is anything from his stated backstory that can label him a sociopath.  Even his shooting of Annalise, which I hated, doesn't support this conclusion because once again, he acted in the moment based on what he believed. He then institutionalized himself to deal with the fact that he knew he was spiraling out of control. It was the shooting of Annalise and the site of another black woman in  a pool of blood that caused his repressed memories about his mother's death to resurface. Is Wes an occasionally emo pain in the ass, yes; sociopath, for now, I say no.

OMG this explains so much. It never occurred to me that she actually did kill herself (both because of the manner of death and because I couldn't see how she would think that would be best for her son), but I must have looked away from the TV for a few seconds which as we all know, one.must. not. do.with.this.show. (I still kind of like thinking of Wes as a sleeper psycho though...) Anyway thanks!

[secnarf]

7 minutes ago, rubyred said:

OMG this explains so much. It never occurred to me that she actually did kill herself (both because of the manner of death and because I couldn't see how she would think that would be best for her son), but I must have looked away from the TV for a few seconds which as we all know, one.must. not. do.with.this.show. (I still kind of like thinking of Wes as a sleeper psycho though...) Anyway thanks!

We saw Rose killing herself onscreen - the scene was maybe a few minutes long. Annalise was there and then she left Rose to die, but she did stick around long enough to listen to Wes walk in on his mother bleeding to death. Probably a good idea to go back and watch those episodes if you missed it! One of the last ones of season 2, I think.

[rubyred]

I remember Rose dying; I just didn't believe it was as straightforward as her doing it all herself. So I guess I inserted a Mahoney henchman into the narrative (that we didn't see) who started the stabbing or whatever. It didn't jibe for me that the mother that Rose seemed to be would think it was okay to potentially put her son in the position of standing over her while she bled out. But I guess that's what she did. I guess I was looking for a twist where there wasn't one.

It's funny, I resist re-watching this show - it gives me weird dreams. Besides, there's always plenty of folks eager to set me straight!

[Happytobehere]

4 minutes ago, rubyred said:

I remember Rose dying; I just didn't believe it was as straightforward as her doing it all herself. So I guess I inserted a Mahoney henchman into the narrative (that we didn't see) who started the stabbing or whatever. It didn't jibe for me that the mother that Rose seemed to be would think it was okay to potentially put her son in the position of standing over her while she bled out. But I guess that's what she did. I guess I was looking for a twist where there wasn't one.

It's funny, I resist re-watching this show - it gives me weird dreams. Besides, there's always plenty of folks eager to set me straight!

She did it because Mahoney was threatening Wes and she felt (sadly, rightly so), that if she wer no longer in the picture Mahoney would leave Wes alone.  She was desperate, feared she would be deported and thus removed from Wes' life anyway, so to her, doing that in a way which kept Mahoney out of the picture made sense to her.

[Milaxx]

5 minutes ago, rubyred said:

I remember Rose dying; I just didn't believe it was as straightforward as her doing it all herself. So I guess I inserted a Mahoney henchman into the narrative (that we didn't see) who started the stabbing or whatever. It didn't jibe for me that the mother that Rose seemed to be would think it was okay to potentially put her son in the position of standing over her while she bled out. But I guess that's what she did. I guess I was looking for a twist where there wasn't one.

It's funny, I resist re-watching this show - it gives me weird dreams. Besides, there's always plenty of folks eager to set me straight!

Probably because Annalise figured out that Rose was being kept/helped to stay in this country by Mahooney and at one point he abused/raped her. Rose was terrified of Mahooney in due part because of threats to hurt Christoph/Wes. Her last words to Annalise was "Take care of my boy." I don't think she imagined Christoph/Wes being the one to find her.

[SimoneS]

On 10/28/2016 at 11:25 PM, Happytobehere said:

No, they were planning on covering the murder up and Annalise helped them along.  They were in the process of the coverup when Wes returned to the house and Annalise was there; hence them not calling the police.  Annalise can't be blamed for a plot they put in motion before she was ever on the scene.  They are the makers of their own downfall and lie and blame Annalise to assuage their guilt and absolve themselves of culpability; we should not be doing the same.

Michaela was the only on who wanted to back out of the scheme and theoretically do the right thing.  It is in these moments where we first see Connor and Laurel threatening and intimidating Michaela if she dares to tell the truth and upset their pre-set apple carts of life.

Exactly. This is exactly why I roll my eyes when they rant on and on blaming Annalise for their predicament. Of the bunch, Michaela is probably the best, but that doesn't say much given how the low standards have to be to judge their characters. 

22 hours ago, Milaxx said:

Oliver isn't really flaunting his dates. In fact he specifically told Connor he wasn't dating. Connor just happened to come in when he was talking to Michaela. Connor's never going to have a healthy relationship unless he's truthful.  Coliver was built on lies and toppled under the weight of those lies. It's the one thing Wes got right in breaking it off with Meggy. He can't be honest with her and it's not fair. I like Coliver but it won't work unless Connor come clean.  Even then who knows if Oliver can accept all the misdeeds the k5 have done?

Exactly. I don't get the anger at Oliver for breaking up with a man who has been constantly lying to him and committed to their relationship so he would not be alone as he tried to cope with the emotional turmoil of being involved with a murder and its cover up. Connor's willingness to overlook Oliver deleting his Stanford acceptance and not even getting angry woke Oliver up. Oliver rightly figured out that there was something wrong with their relationship even though he couldn't put his finger on what it was, but Connor's desperation to hold on to him was a huge clue.

Edited October 30, 2016 by SimoneS

[Joimiaroxeu]

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At this rate, I'm surprised that there's one baby, not two.

My theory is that there will indeed be two. We just don't know about Bonnie's yet. (And maybe neither does she.)

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I guess Wes is the father of Laurel's baby.

Still not convinced. I think she may have already been pregnant when she slept with Wes.

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Wes is so so dead.

Yep. I guess Frank and Nate are still possibilities but I don't see Annalise getting all that distraught over Frank unless she was just pretending. I think Nate is still going to serve some future purpose via his relationship with the ADA, especially now that Anna is being charged with murder or manslaughter or whatever. If it is Nate though, that would probably give the ADA reason to try extra hard to convict Annalise for his death.

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I suspect she had the house burned down. For all we know the person under the sheet could have been dead before the fire.

Unless the body had been reduced to ashes wouldn't an ME be able to detect that the body was already dead? Annalise would surely know that and I doubt she would make that kind of mistake. I too think it's likely she set the house on fire but she probably wasn't counting on anyone still being inside.

[Milaxx]

32 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

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I suspect she had the house burned down. For all we know the person under the sheet could have been dead before the fire.

Unless the body had been reduced to ashes wouldn't an ME be able to detect that the body was already dead? Annalise would surely know that and I doubt she would make that kind of mistake. I too think it's likely she set the house on fire but she probably wasn't counting on anyone still being inside.

I was really just throwing that out as a "what if".  It's not really a theory of mine, just that as crazy as this show is, I wouldn't be surprised. After all they (supposedly)bought that Sinclair died at the Hapstall mansion.  Basically unless they did an autopsy it could be argued that the assumption was the person died from smoke inhalation.  This is not a theory I would go down fighting for. Like I said If the show went this route I wouldn't be surprised.

I am, however much more interested to see how date or if date #2 happens for Oliver. He seemed ready to tell acupuncture guy he was positive. That's a sub plot I am interested in seeing played out.

[Black Knight]

57 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I guess Frank and Nate are still possibilities but I don't see Annalise getting all that distraught over Frank unless she was just pretending.

I could see her being that upset over Frank, since (depending on what happens in the remaining weeks) she may not have gotten any closure on that relationship. The writers already gave some indications in this episode that as mad and hurt as Annalise is, and as much as she talks about how she'll kill him if he shows up again, there's still a part of her that doesn't want anything bad to happen to him. So her anguish could be a "Deep down I wanted us to work things out, and it's too late now!" reaction.

[Milaxx]

Her relationship with Frank is just as crazy & dysfunctional as her relationship with Bonnie. She fires, verbally abuses and professes love and affection for them both on a rotating basis. IMO it's why she hesitated with instructing the PI/hit man to take Frank out or for that matter simply instructing the guy to find and kill him on sight. She's mad and rightly so but I don't believe for one second she wants him dead. I think she would be upset if it turns out he's the one under the sheet.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Frank is the reason Annalise lost her baby. I don't see her letting that go emotionally, at least not this soon. She may not actively pursue his death but I just don't see her being all that bothered by it. I think whoever is under that sheet is someone she loves.