Unpopular Opinions Thread

[chocolatine]

My new unpopular opinion after last night's episode is that I don't have any sympathy for Jack and Rebecca's financial struggles. They are 35 and 29, respectively, when they decide to get pregnant, and Jack seems to have been steadily employed as a construction foreman for a long time. They live in a small, modest apartment in an inexpensive city, yet they seem to be living paycheck-to-paycheck, with only a small amount of savings that's wiped out when they lose the security deposit on the walkup apartment. If Jack always thought he would have kids someday, why didn't he start saving for that years ago? Back in the 70s/early 80s it was still possible to save enough for a down payment on a blue collar salary in a city like Pittsburgh.

And what did Rebecca do before the kids, besides singing in bars every now and then? She had 7-8 post-collegiate years where she could have at least worked part-time and contributed to the family finances.

Despite their poor financial choices, they're fortunate enough to have parents on both sides who are willing to help out. Of course that help comes with strings attached; that kind of help always does. Am I supposed to feel sorry for Jack and Rebecca because their parents aren't perfect human beings in addition to offering them a large sum of money/a free place to live?

[OtterMommy]

7 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

My new unpopular opinion after last night's episode is that I don't have any sympathy for Jack and Rebecca's financial struggles. They are 35 and 29, respectively, when they decide to get pregnant, and Jack seems to have been steadily employed as a construction foreman for a long time. They live in a small, modest apartment in an inexpensive city, yet they seem to be living paycheck-to-paycheck, with only a small amount of savings that's wiped out when they lose the security deposit on the walkup apartment. If Jack always thought he would have kids someday, why didn't he start saving for that years ago? Back in the 70s/early 80s it was still possible to save enough for a down payment on a blue collar salary in a city like Pittsburgh.

And what did Rebecca do before the kids, besides singing in bars every now and then? She had 7-8 post-collegiate years where she could have at least worked part-time and contributed to the family finances.

Despite their poor financial choices, they're fortunate enough to have parents on both sides who are willing to help out. Of course that help comes with strings attached; that kind of help always does. Am I supposed to feel sorry for Jack and Rebecca because their parents aren't perfect human beings in addition to offering them a large sum of money/a free place to live?

I never thought about this until you posted, but...yeah.  That doesn't make any sense.  I'm hoping that the show gives us some sort of explanation....

[Guest]

I'm super conservative and wise about finances so I have trouble with broke parent stories but I think most people don't have much money when they start a family.  And these two probably didn't plan to conceive 10 minutes after deciding to start planning to, and of course not with triplets and not the "oops, I blew my savings on a too-high apt."  

But I'm with you about that apt.  They could've lived out the 6-12 month lease there because really how often do you drag three newborns around town, no matter what your home?  If you want to go for a walk you put one in a wearable carrier and each parent grabs another and you walk down to the stroller(s) in the lobby or carport or basement.  

[OtterMommy]

9 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm super conservative and wise about finances so I have trouble with broke parent stories but I think most people don't have much money when they start a family.  And these two probably didn't plan to conceive 10 minutes after deciding to start planning to, and of course not with triplets and not the "oops, I blew my savings on a too-high apt."  .  

Actually they did....in the restroom of the bar during the Super Bowl.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm super conservative and wise about finances so I have trouble with broke parent stories but I think most people don't have much money when they start a family.  And these two probably didn't plan to conceive 10 minutes after deciding to start planning to, and of course not with triplets and not the "oops, I blew my savings on a too-high apt." 

I would have given them a pass if they were still very young or if it had been an unplanned pregnancy, but neither was the case. It was poor planning by people who were old enough to know better, and while I know it happens more often than it should, I have a hard time sympathizing with that.

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But I'm with you about that apt.  They could've lived out the 6-12 month lease there because really how often do you drag three newborns around town, no matter what your home?  If you want to go for a walk you put one in a wearable carrier and each parent grabs another and you walk down to the stroller(s) in the lobby or carport or basement.  

In my experience, you take a baby for a walk in the fresh air once a day. If you need to run errands and nobody is there to watch the baby, the baby comes with you. If the baby absolutely won't fall asleep, you put him/her in a car seat and go for a drive. Then you also have frequent doctor's visits for checkups, vaccines, etc. So you leave the house with the baby at least once a day. Even with one baby, going up and down that many stairs is a huge pain. Most of the time you don't just have the baby with you, but also a diaper bag, groceries, and in some cases stroller if there's nowhere else to store it. It was a poor choice and I refuse to believe that there were no other housing options the Pearsons could afford on Jack's salary in a cheap real estate market like Pittsburgh. The money from selling the car would have allowed them to put down a deposit on a more suitable place, and they could have saved up for a down payment over the next couple of years. There was no reason he had to ask his father for money if that was *so* hard for him.

Edited January 12, 2017 by chocolatine

[Guest]

10 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Actually they did....in the restroom of the bar during the Super Bowl.

I know, that was my point.  They didn't plan to conceive right then, I would think.  

The above is SOP with one baby.  With three, I don't think so.  The few families I know with 3 kids under say 3 y/o, it takes both parents to take all the kids anywhere.  No one I know (or have ever seen) just runs to the store in the middle of the day alone with 3 babies.  

Honestly, the worst decision was to adopt the third, in my opinion.  

Edited January 12, 2017 by Guest

[JudyObscure]

Sorry, wrong thread.

Edited January 12, 2017 by JudyObscure

[photo fox]

My UO:  I'm fine with Kevin living with Randall.  It keeps Kevin interacting with the others in a natural way.  If he got an apartment in Manhattan, I feel like he'd end up like Kate did - cut off from the rest of the storylines and essentially being in a different show with Sloan and the play.  His interactions with Randall's family are always some of my favorite moments of the episodes, and his lines generally inject some humor into stories that are otherwise pretty heavy.

Of course, if these were real people, I'd tell him to use some of his apparent mountain of cash to get his own place already!  And real or not, he needs to stop being a putz.

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, photo fox said:

My UO:  I'm fine with Kevin living with Randall.  It keeps Kevin interacting with the others in a natural way.  If he got an apartment in Manhattan, I feel like he'd end up like Kate did - cut off from the rest of the storylines and essentially being in a different show with Sloan and the play.  His interactions with Randall's family are always some of my favorite moments of the episodes, and his lines generally inject some humor into stories that are otherwise pretty heavy.

I agree with this...although, if he were living in the swanky hotel (or apartment), I'm sure he'd have Kate living with him--and that wouldn't have been good for either character.

I'm also guess that his finances are a bit more restricted now that he's self-financing the play.

[OtterMommy]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I know, that was my point.  They didn't plan to conceive right then, I would think.  

The above is SOP with one baby.  With three, I don't think so.  The few families I know with 3 kids under say 3 y/o, it takes both parents to take all the kids anywhere.  No one I know (or have ever seen) just runs to the store in the middle of the day alone with 3 babies.  

Honestly, the worst decision was to adopt the third, in my opinion.  

Okay, I see what you are saying about the conception (but I would like to think that a couple who just discussed having kids and then having unprotected sex would at least consider conception to be a possibility at that moment).

I had 2 kids under 2 and, yeah, going out was NOT easy.  I couldn't understand why any family would get a walk-up with a baby on the way, except that they were naive about what parenting young kids would be like.

Edited January 12, 2017 by OtterMommy
Typos

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, photo fox said:

My UO:  I'm fine with Kevin living with Randall.  It keeps Kevin interacting with the others in a natural way.  If he got an apartment in Manhattan, I feel like he'd end up like Kate did - cut off from the rest of the storylines and essentially being in a different show with Sloan and the play.  His interactions with Randall's family are always some of my favorite moments of the episodes, and his lines generally inject some humor into stories that are otherwise pretty heavy.

Of course, if these were real people, I'd tell him to use some of his apparent mountain of cash to get his own place already!  And real or not, he needs to stop being a putz.

I see your point that it helps with Kevin interacting with his family, but in the show both Randall and Beth weren't happy after a couple weeks or less, so if he becomes a permanent resident, they should address it with a line or two of dialogue.  When William dies, one of them could say "it's awfully quiet around here now, maybe having Kevin stay isn't so bad."  But really, a 36 year-old brother could get a rental of some kind nearby so he can have his privacy for his assignations and whatnot. 

[OtterMommy]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I see your point that it helps with Kevin interacting with his family, but in the show both Randall and Beth weren't happy after a couple weeks or less, so if he becomes a permanent resident, they should address it with a line or two of dialogue.  When William dies, one of them could say "it's awfully quiet around here now, maybe having Kevin stay isn't so bad."  But really, a 36 year-old brother could get a rental of some kind nearby so he can have his privacy for his assignations and whatnot. 

I think Randall's discomfort was due to his relationship with Kevin, which was all sorted out when they got into a little fight on the street.  I do think Kevin's presence became a little easier for Beth once she got high and moved him into the basement, but she certainly didn't seem pleased that he was doing some entertaining of his own down there.

ETA: It could also be that William seems fine with Kevin being there, and he gets along well with Kevin, that helps things a bit.  

Edited January 12, 2017 by OtterMommy

[teapot]

On 11/1/2016 at 10:01 PM, Amethyst said:

I like Rebecca and Mandy Moore, but I don't think Moore's performance is anything extraordinary.

ha!  I see what you did, there...(and I love that CD to this day!!)

On 11/29/2016 at 3:35 PM, ZeroDiscipline said:

  And though I am growing tired of the Kate character, I think Chrissy Metz looks absolutely beautiful when she is crying, like in the dinner scene with Toby last week. It is the opposite of uglycrying.

I think Chrissy *is* absolutely beautiful.  Am I crazy, or does she look like she could she be Lauren Graham's younger sister?

[topanga]

3 hours ago, photo fox said:

My UO:  I'm fine with Kevin living with Randall.  It keeps Kevin interacting with the others in a natural way.  If he got an apartment in Manhattan, I feel like he'd end up like Kate did - cut off from the rest of the storylines and essentially being in a different show with Sloan and the play.  His interactions with Randall's family are always some of my favorite moments of the episodes, and his lines generally inject some humor into stories that are otherwise pretty heavy.

Of course, if these were real people, I'd tell him to use some of his apparent mountain of cash to get his own place already!  And real or not, he needs to stop being a putz.

Or is he giving Randal and Beth any money? I know Randall has a nice job, and the two of them live comfortably, but they now have not one, but two additional adults living with them--one of whom is a millionaire. Does Kevin buy groceries, cook, or do chores? Has he ever offered to pay part of the mortgage or the electricity bill? Just curious. 

24 minutes ago, teapot said:

I think Chrissy *is* absolutely beautiful.  Am I crazy, or does she look like she could she be Lauren Graham's younger sister?

I was thinking the exact same thing during this episode. Their voices are even similar. 

[SlackerInc]

15 hours ago, teapot said:

I think Chrissy *is* absolutely beautiful.  Am I crazy, or does she look like she could she be Lauren Graham's younger sister?

Since we're in this thread, I'm going to take a deep breath and offer a guaranteed radioactive opinion: she's way too "super obese" (the technical term, apparently) to be attractive, and it really makes me cringe every time Toby talks about desperately wanting sex with her.  I start trying to picture how that's even physically possible and then shudder and try to snap out of it.

[Guest]

I admit to thinking his idea of her climbing up on that hospital bed with him was chancey.  I'm sure if any bed could handle 700lbs. of cargo it's a hospital bed, but still, that's like the weight of a grand piano.  

[Court]

I'll admit I also have wondered on the whole logistics involved in the bedroom. I do think Chrissy is gorgeous. I hate Toby's hair.

[Vivigirl10]

Quote

and it really makes me cringe every time Toby talks about desperately wanting sex with her. 

Bless you for saying this!  I feel that it's really being shoved down the viewers throat that she is so desirable! She is so beautiful! Toby can't keep his hands off her! Can you please give it a rest?  I voiced my irritation to my husband who shut me down and said that people eat that kind of stuff up and most like to see a perhaps imperfect person be found so appealing.  Frankly, even if she looked like a model, I'd be grossed out by Toby's constant vocal horniness.    

[ClareWalks]

14 minutes ago, Kiki620 said:

Frankly, even if she looked like a model, I'd be grossed out by Toby's constant vocal horniness.

Yeah, for me it has nothing to do with her size and everything to do with the fact that Toby is in his mid- to late-30s and acts like a 14-year-old boy who can't control his boners.

[NutMeg]

Me, it's Toby that I find difficult to see as an object of fancy. I get that personality is subjective, and the fact that his personality doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean he's not appealing to other people. Still, personality aside, there's also something off with him physically, and it may or may not be due to the fat suit (makes his head tiny compared to his body, for instance). I do find Kate pretty, and an interesting person. I don't find Toby handsome in the least and combined with his obnoxious personality, I'm quite offended on Kate's behalf that THIS is the best storyline (not to say love interest) they could come up with for her.

Maybe it would be different if he was played by a different actor. One who is overweight without having to resort to a fat suit if they wanted to keep the WW or whatever story, or one with a normal weight.     

[ShadowFacts]

3 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Yeah, for me it has nothing to do with her size and everything to do with the fact that Toby is in his mid- to late-30s and acts like a 14-year-old boy who can't control his boners.

Yes!  He's an id kid.  And it all objectifies Kate a little too much.  It is most definitely not funny or cute or endearing.  If I were Kate, I'd be feeling uncomfortable with his constant jabbering about sex. 

[luna1122]

I think we're supposed to realize that nobody has ever talked to Kate this way before, nobody's ever told her she was beautiful or wanted to constantly have sex with her, so she finds it flattering. If she'd ever had more experience, she might find it as off putting as we do, or not. Some women would just be flattered anyway. I do think she's very pretty, and I don't have a problem with the idea that someone would find her attractive. There's all kinds of tastes, fortunately for those of us who aren't perfect. I don't find Toby remotely attractive, tho that has more to do with that dumb patch of hair atop his head, but I DID find the actor kind of attractive--in a big, quiet, compassionate, tough guy kind of way--on "Stranger Things". It has a lot more to do with personality, for me, than looks, a lot of the time. I can objectify a beautiful man as much as anyone, but personality and wit and humor and intelligence goes further, for me. Like: I find John Goodman attractive, even sexy, esp. when he was younger n bigger than he is now. Swagger and confidence and smarts to burn. I have never had an overweight boyfriend, tho I'm a big girl, tho. Maybe I'm shallow.

[Guest]

I think the show is trying to be edgy... "Look!  We're among the first to not only feature obese characters but ours are super obese AND we get racy!  Obese sexiness is the new gay sexiness!"  (As in, the new racy/edgy/progressive TV sex portrayal.)   

I find it a little exploitative and not very interesting, though I don't really care to see any of the sexy scenes network TV shows do.  Not that I want it necessarily racier or want sex ignored on tv, I just don't really think most sex scenes are done well.  Most of the time the writers seem to think an urgent quickie in an inappropriate place is the height of sexy.  Clearly, I balk at that idea.  I mean, sure, use that trope in some scenes but it's the go-to for network dramas.  I hate how often it's used and I think it's a little offensive to women, who more often than not aren't really into that.  At least this ep, the sex allusions were better-- Beth and Randall in the tub, and Kevin and Sloane in the basement, on a sleepover.  That latter is still inappropriate as a house guest but better than the last Kate/Toby hookup.  

Also I think they make Toby speak that way to make Kate appear doubly vulnerable to Toby's interest, because it's new to her.  

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes!  He's an id kid.  And it all objectifies Kate a little too much.  It is most definitely not funny or cute or endearing.  If I were Kate, I'd be feeling uncomfortable with his constant jabbering about sex. 

Definitely...and I think that Kate *is* uncomfortable with it.  At least she seemed to in this episode.  Of course, that's also because all this was in a FREAKING HOSPITAL ROOM with nurses and doctors coming in and out all the time.  I've known guys like Toby in this regard, and it starts off as funny but very, very quickly becomes repulsive and insulting.  That's probably where my own Toby issues come from--he reminds me too much of people I'd like to forget.

But, on the other hand, the guys that I've known of who behave like this ALL had some pretty deep insecurity issues.  If the show explored that side of things with Toby, I think it might humanize him and make him a bit more likable.

[ClareWalks]

17 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

But, on the other hand, the guys that I've known of who behave like this ALL had some pretty deep insecurity issues.  If the show explored that side of things with Toby, I think it might humanize him and make him a bit more likable.

Yeah, he is acting like guys who are used to being in the "friend zone" and think that, by constantly reminding women that they want sex and have a penis and such, that the women will see them sexually and not just as buddies.

[kieyra]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I admit to thinking his idea of her climbing up on that hospital bed with him was chancey.  I'm sure if any bed could handle 700lbs. of cargo it's a hospital bed, but still, that's like the weight of a grand piano.  

I mostly found it confusing because I thought he'd just got done saying he had a catheter in his junk?

I don't post for this show much and this is obviously NOT a UO, but I can't stand Toby. I honestly don't know if the show expects me to like him, though. He's obviously got a boatload of issues that he keeps at bay with 'humor', and he's a terrible influence on Kate's attempts to get healthy. We've seen repeatedly in flashbacks that Jack (that's the father's name, right?) let her eat whatever she wanted to (the scene with the cereal vs the grapefruit) and loved her unconditionally. I'm not saying those things are bad, although as an obese child and formerly obese adult* even I have no idea what the answer is for parents in that situation, but Kate is obviously working out daddy issues (and/or trying to re-create that unconditional love) with Toby.

Except Toby is more of a dysfunctional enabler than anything.

At least, this has all been my takeaway almost since this character was introduced. But again, I'm not sure if the show actually expects me to like him or think their connection is genuine. I do neither. 

(And despite these lifelong struggles with weight, and wanting diversity and inclusion in shows, I'm just not sure how I feel about attempts to normalize morbid obesity. This isn't something I've given a lot of thought to lately, what with the country embracing apocalypse and all, but being that heavy is really, really bad for you. (Yes, I'm aware of the fat-acceptance folks saying otherwise. I argued with them a lot online--while also being obese--back in the 90s.) My father is morbidly obese and hasn't been able to walk in fifteen years or so. Never mind the congestive heart failure and type II diabetes and so on. All this said, my perspective may also be biased because ultimately I was able to lose and keep off a large amount of weight I'd been carrying since childhood, and that's a statistical anomaly.)

[chocolatine]

I'd like to know if Toby has always had that hyper-sexualized persona, of if that was a product of his ex-wife cheating on him and the subsequent divorce. I'm sure his ego was very hurt by that and he may have misguidedly thought that if he presented himself as the virile manly-man, future romantic partners wouldn't cheat on him.

[Guest]

I feel like he probably just does it to Kate because to me the subtext is, "You must detest your body so much, I'm going to give you constant reminders that I don't.  And the more I push it, the more gross I think YOU must think you are, which is why I won't let it rest."  Which I find a little offensive.  Well, it's more a backhanded insult than anything, I guess.  

Edited January 13, 2017 by Guest

[ShadowFacts]

We've seen Kate be unafraid to be direct and even confrontational (diet group woman, Olivia, Rebecca to a degree), so I hope she pipes up and asks Toby what's up with this behavior.  Otherwise it looks too much like he has gone overboard now that a dry spell has ended.  Talk about some other things, ask her how she's doing.  He also seems to me like someone who thinks he could be a stand-up comedian.  Maybe he'll tone it down a little now that he's defied death.

[OtterMommy]

2 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

We've seen Kate be unafraid to be direct and even confrontational (diet group woman, Olivia, Rebecca to a degree), so I hope she pipes up and asks Toby what's up with this behavior.  Otherwise it looks too much like he has gone overboard now that a dry spell has ended.  Talk about some other things, ask her how she's doing.  He also seems to me like someone who thinks he could be a stand-up comedian.  Maybe he'll tone it down a little now that he's defied death.

I never thought about this until I read your post.  I don't disagree with you, but notice that it only seems to be women that Kate feels she can confront.  The few times she has called Toby on whatever his behavior is, she is timid and the ultimately backs down.  She's a little better with Kevin, but really it seems she always ends up patting his ego.  (We haven't yet seen how she behaves in a similar with Randall).  Is this just a coincidence or is something there?  That is something I'd like to see....

[JudyObscure]

Kate didn't have much trouble confronting Toby when she caught him bingeing, expressing her displeasure after he ruined her football game, or breaking up with him when she thought he would mess-up her attempts to diet.  I just don't see any indication that she is offended by his sex talk.  In fact I think both of them see it as Toby-being-funny.  He couldn't have possibly been serious about sex in the hospital, people were in and out, the catheter, the near death experience, to name a few obstacles.  In fact it is very common for men who have had heart attacks to be afraid of having sex for months afterward and he may well have trouble getting aroused.  I've never liked sexual humor myself but I know lots of people  who do, so I think Toby and Kate are supposed to be two of them.  I also think the writers opened their scene with Toby's stream of rapid fire sex talk as a way to show that, not only was he not dead, but  frisky and funny and still in love with Kate.  

[HeyThere83]

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think the show is trying to be edgy... "Look!  We're among the first to not only feature obese characters but ours are super obese AND we get racy!  Obese sexiness is the new gay sexiness!"  (As in, the new racy/edgy/progressive TV sex portrayal.)   

  

Yes this. We may be on network TV, we may be a wholesome family show, we may be the new Parenthood, we may make you cry every show, but....we also got Milo's butt!!! And stuff with weed! See how rebellious we are!!

[SlackerInc]

13 hours ago, luna1122 said:

There's all kinds of tastes, fortunately for those of us who aren't perfect.

I think this might have been sort of "subtweeting" me.  If it's not, mea culpa; but I just want to make it clear in any case that I don't have a super narrow range of body types that I find attractive.  Somewhere in the midst of researching dietary stuff for the Kate thread, I came across an article by a "fat acceptance" proponent, in which she did a little fashion show.  And I saved one of the photos because I thought it was super sexy and gorgeous: 

Well, shoot, the image is too large to post.  But thanks to Google Image Search, I found it online.  It's the #2 here.  The difference with Kate being that she still has a basic "womanly" shape.  But sure, MMV.

4 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

Yes this. We may be on network TV, we may be a wholesome family show, we may be the new Parenthood, we may make you cry every show, but....we also got Milo's butt!!! And stuff with weed! See how rebellious we are!!

I think it qualifies as an UO around here to stick up for Parenthood as a better show than this one.  Parenthood had plenty of stuff with weed.  And (the true taboo on network TV) prominent characters who were outspoken, unrepentant atheists.

Edited January 14, 2017 by SlackerInc

[JudyObscure]

I think I get what SlackerInc is saying.  I don't find Kate's body very pretty for the same reason I don't find Gwyneth Paltrow's body pretty -- no waist.  Yet, most people don't find that a particular defect at all.  Lots of models (Heidi Klum) have wide waists.

http://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/0/86/53/69/20140826/ob_d656f7_gwyneth-paltrow-ice-bucket-challenge.gif

I think another taboo on TV is asexual people.  They are legion, but either ignored or presented as repressed people who need to be fixed -- just listen to the audience cheer every time Big Bang's Sheldon makes a tiny step toward the sexual.  Imagine a show with a gay person and the audience rooting for him to "turn straight," all the time.

Edited January 14, 2017 by JudyObscure

[leighdear]

I just can't jump on the Milo/Jack love train, no matter what story they give him.  He looks like a unclean, homeless derelict.  All the time.  And his acting to me comes off like he's scamming everybody (not counting his father.).  I just don't buy a single thing he's selling. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by leighdear

[talktoomuch]

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Court said:

I'll admit I also have wondered on the whole logistics involved in the bedroom.

Doggy style for sure.

[SlackerInc]

2 hours ago, talktoomuch said:

Doggy style for sure.

Makes sense, although I guess it's fortunate that he is not proportionally as heavy because then the guy's belly could make that difficult as well (I'd think).

[Guest]

On 1/14/2017 at 6:41 AM, JudyObscure said:

Lots of models (Heidi Klum) have wide waists.

Yet if you turn Heidi sideways, her waist isn't even as wide as her face.  It freaks me out.  

With Chrissy, I think she's pretty because I see a pretty face in the center of all the excess flesh around her face.  Kind of like how she seems to carry her weight mostly on her torso.   When most of us carry a lot of excess weight, I think it's more distributed all over us and obscures our prior face shape, leg shape, etc.  

[kieyra]

On 1/14/2017 at 8:55 PM, leighdear said:

I just can't jump on the Milo/Jack love train, no matter what story they give him.  He looks like a unclean, homeless derelict.  All the time.  And his acting to me comes off like he's scamming everybody (not counting his father.).  I just don't buy a single thing he's selling. 

 Not only all this ^^ (and someone in the current ep thread said his hair looks like it's been marinated in olive oil)--but I also just completed the run of Gilmore Girls where MV's Jess is a non-stop bratty asshat for three seasons. Ugh. All I'm really getting from Jack is that he has brainwashed himself into this dream of a perfect family.

[ChromaKelly]

I'm another one who is not on the Jack/ Milo V love train. I don't find him attractive and there's something about his voice that is off-putting to me. It sounds to dude-bro. The only time I really awwww'ed was the episode with Randall going to private school.

[izabella]

I don't care if they are Millennials or Gen X or Gen Y.  I don't care if their birth certificates say 1979, 1980 or 1981.

I don't hate Miguel, and I'm not mad at Rebecca for remarrying after Jack's death.

Edited January 19, 2017 by izabella

[walnutqueen]

I am not boarding the Beth/Randall love train.

And what IS it about these new generations that requires them to obsess about naming and defining their generations ad nauseum?

[Guest]

I don't love McRaney in this.  I just clicked through a bunch of his scenes looking for a particular reference and he's so monotone and a little robotic in all his deliveries.  "Jack.  Your wife is in distress."  

[luna1122]

I think McRaney is great, and love his delivery...but I don't care to watch much more of Dr. McFolksy. I'm fine with him being a peripheral character, but don't need or want to see him in his own storyline again.

I don't care about Generation Whatever either.

I don't hate Miguel. I don't mind that Rebecca married again, why shouldn't she? But I still do mind her marrying Miguel, mostly cuz he's just not very cute or appealing or attractive in any way that I can see. I'm shallow.

[topanga]

37 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

I am not boarding the Beth/Randall love train.

And what IS it about these new generations that requires them to obsess about naming and defining their generations ad nauseum?

With all do respect, the older generation usually names the ones after it: Baby Boomers, Gen X, etc. 

And out of curiosity, why don't you like (or love) Beth and Randall? Maybe it's because I think the two actors are strong, and I like seeing the depiction of a loving black couple, but those two are my favorites on the show. 

[DayGlorious]

Long-time listener/first-time caller here. 

1. I can't STAND Rebecca. 
   Nothing would make me happier than if the closing credits of every show featured a voice over of Mandy Moore saying "see you next Tuesday," and not just because that's when the show airs. As cheesy as this show is, and as ashamed of myself as I am for getting sucked into it, the writers, producers, and actors have generally done a good job of making even the most icky characters multidimensional. Kevin may be a pathologically needy, attention-whoring emotional cripple, but he is fiercely protective of his sister and nieces; Toby may be a walking billboard of early abuser warning signs, but there's something sad and vulnerable and deeply lonely just behind the funny-fat-guy shell; Olivia takes refuge in fake people and the fundamental inauthenticity of pretending to be other people for a living because the only genuine thing she feels is pain. It's enough to make me feel at least a little bad for them, even though I don't like them. But no matter how hard the staff and Mandy herself try to present Rebecca as a sympathetic character with genuine backstory (wire-frame mother, loss of a child, possibly an anxiety disorder), I have no love for her, and very episode makes me wish that she, not Jack, was the one meeting an early death. Even at her best, her "selflessness" and come-to-Jesus moments come with a heaping helping of self-absorption and professional victimhood (case in point: the scene after Kate's weight-loss surgery consult, where with one poignant sentence, she pushes Kate's suffering to the background and makes it all about her). At anything other than her best, she is rude, cruel, selfish, and irredeemably awful. The forgotten-birthday scene in this week's episode brought me to the realization that perhaps instead of turning out like his father, Saint Jack took after his long-suffering mother, and that both his constant need to "fix" things and his attraction to an abrasive harpy like Rebecca are byproducts of the power dynamic between the abuser and the abused. (And yes, she was pregnant and yuuuge in that scene, but she was an abrasive harpy before and after the pregnancy as well.) It would certainly explain why his adult kids put Jack on a pedestal while maintaining varying levels of emotional distance from Rebecca. 
2. Randall and Beth are so, so boring.  
   Y'know, I grew up in the 80s and can out-pop-culture almost anyone when it comes to that decade. (That makes temporal discontinuities like the Diet Coke reference particularly painful, but I'm sure my parents cringed just as hard when I added "maaaan" to all my lines as a hippie in a middle-school play, so whatever.) And I get sticking with what's tried and true in order to expand demographics and increase ratings, and I get that SKB is both a brilliant actor and hotter than hell. But couldn't the writers have done more than just load Dwayne Wayne and Denise Huxtable from "A Different World" into a time machine and re-script them as the couple they might have been if Lisa Bonet didn't get knocked up? With the standard disclaimer that as a white person, I may be swerving a little out of my lane here, something about both the casting and scripting here feels very tokenizing and clichéd.
3. Speaking of clichés...
   William. As much as I will bawl my damn eyes out when he dies, what's good about him isn't original, and what's original about him isn't good. The one facet of his character that breaks from the associated typecasting -- namely, his bisexuality and his relationship with Jessie -- feels forced, underdeveloped, and hastily added (either as a twist or in response to criticism from focus groups or viewers). For every moment that I wish Rebecca would fight with a wood chipper and lose, there are two or three where I wish I could rig one of those "easy buttons" from Staples to play a soundbite of Keenan Wayans saying "Message!" in "Don't Be a Menace to South Central." And what really irks me is that even though William has been clean for three decades, we're constantly, excessively reminded that he's an ex-junkie. Yes, he attends NA meetings, and like anyone else working a program, he refers to his addiction in the present tense. Yes, thanks to Jessie, we see that recovery can still be frail after all that time. And if I had to pick one scene where this show absolutely nails an issue, for me, it's that one. But there's something very "dry drunk" about how static William's life has been since he got clean and how someone with so much potential has so little to show for it on any level (not just financially). Just because he's a recovering addict and an artist doesn't mean he has to walk the poverty line like a tightrope, even if there's a backstory of arrests and jail time that we haven't yet seen. Just because he's poor doesn't mean he has to look so disheveled that he inspires Randall's awful neighbors to call the security guard. And I'm sure he was scripted that way to contrast Randall's bougie-ness and give viewers some level of confidence that he made the right decision in giving up his newborn son, but it still just feels wrong.

Edited January 19, 2017 by DayGlorious

[ShadowFacts]

27 minutes ago, DayGlorious said:

With the standard disclaimer that as a white person, I may be swerving a little out of my lane here, something about both the casting and scripting here feels very tokenizing and clichéd.

I'm curious as to what would be some casting and scripting that would not be cliche or token?  Not meaning to be critical, just wondering if you mean they should be less attractive, less successful and if so, why?  Should they have more problems?  Should William therefore have less appearance of having had a hard life?  I'm not sure how to get around the cliche problem here.  It seems like you are saying Randall and Beth are too polished and successful, and William is too poor and disheveled (which before his shopping trip with Randall, I did not think he was that disheveled--looks pretty good for a dying man). 

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, DayGlorious said:

Just because he's poor doesn't mean he has to look so disheveled that he inspires Randall's awful neighbors to call the security guard

I don't think it was him looking disheveled that prompted that call...

[DayGlorious]

25 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm curious as to what would be some casting and scripting that would not be cliche or token?  Not meaning to be critical, just wondering if you mean they should be less attractive, less successful and if so, why?  Should they have more problems?  Should William therefore have less appearance of having had a hard life?  I'm not sure how to get around the cliche problem here.  It seems like you are saying Randall and Beth are too polished and successful, and William is too poor and disheveled (which before his shopping trip with Randall, I did not think he was that disheveled--looks pretty good for a dying man). 

I suspect you're reading a subtext that just isn't there. 

My beef with the way Randall and Beth are scripted and cast is not that they are attractive and successful. This is mainstream-as-it-gets, junk-food prime-time TV; I wouldn't expect them to be played by character actors. It's that in a show full of flawed people whose complexities and human failings we are clobbered with in ham-fisted fashion week in and week out, they are so sanitized, so perfect, and so utterly phoned-in that they feel like little more than diversity props. This show could and should do better than that, and I hope it does in the future.

As for William, I don't think I would care nearly as much about his appearance or his financial situation if he were given any purpose or depth outside of his relationship with Randall. The lack thereof makes him feel like less of a character and more of a plot device. Don't you think it's just a little weird that at this point in the show, someone with as much charisma and as much to offer the world as William has such a small, sad life? I mean, he has no known family besides Randall and a partner who wasn't worth an explanation of his whereabouts, no friends outside his NA homegroup, and really no one else except his cat. That just doesn't add up without some huge revelation that we haven't yet seen and probably won't. Not with the way everyone on the show keeps treating him as if he's been clean for 3 months instead of 3 decades, anyway. (Well, minus the medicinal brownie date with Beth, obviously.) And there's a lot we don't know about anyone on the show, but they have much more time for a character arc to develop, even if only in flashbacks. When William's dead, he's dead.  

[DayGlorious]

3 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I don't think it was him looking disheveled that prompted that call...

Hence why I called them awful. But if he rolled up in a BMW and wore a $1,000 suit, there's a much greater likelihood that they would have figured he "belonged" to Randall and Beth instead of automatically calling the scared-white-people hotline.