S01.E04: The Pool

[Court]

On 10/19/2016 at 1:21 PM, izabella said:

The one thing that rang false to me was the sunscreen stuff.  The 80's were not a time when sunscreen was popular.  In fact, there was very low SPF on sunscreen back then, in many cases it was marketing as sun tan oil to help you get a "deep, dark, savage tan!"  And a lot of people used baby oil AND those aluminum things to fry to a crisp.  Rebecca would not have been wearing a long sleeve shirt at the pool - she'd have been tanning, on purpose.

I don't know. My mom always lathered us up in the eighties. Sunscreen was drilled into us as a babies.

Also, you can still get skin cancer even if you don't burn.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Court

[kat165]

That's cool, Sue. Thanks for posting. I can never do screen caps so I'm glad others here post them when then can.

[Court]

On 10/19/2016 at 11:51 PM, ribboninthesky1 said:

If it was their first time at that pool, why did Randall suggest it? How would he know there would be black kids there? 

Rebecca asked Randall afterwards if that's why he wanted this pool as opposed to the other one. To me, that meant there's another pool the family usually goes too which is likely all white. Couple that with Randall's comment to William about growing up in one of the whitest towns ever means that this pool is not the one they frequented. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Sorry, missed that.

It was nice of you to provide the screen shot. Thank you. It's always nice to have someone who'll go the extra mile. :)

Edited October 24, 2016 by Clanstarling

[MaryPatShelby]

9 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I think we have the same in-laws.

In my family, you DO NOT drop by unexpectedly.  That is a major no-no that my mother burned into us.  My in-laws, however, think (well, thought...it took almost a decade to get this through their head) that they always had an open invitation to come by any time. And, yes, they live across state lines (about 4 hours away).  I told my husband I wanted a "Mi casa no es su casa" sign for our house.

 

Same with me and my husband.  I was raised that you ALWAYS CALL before even thinking about stopping at someone's house.  My husband's family just dropped in on anyone at any time without notice. Even now, after eons of marriage and knowing how uncomfortable it makes me, he'll still say "Let's walk down and see Larry and Maryann" (neighbors). Um.  If we'd like to get together with them, however informally, let's call and invite them to our place, not drop in. Argh.

[ShadowFacts]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

leave in the morning, get to the house by mid after noon, and leave at 4 in time for dinner at 6 and a show at 8. 

The only minor timeline hiccup for the scene in question is that I think they seemed to be arriving at Randall's door in the morning when the family was getting reading to split for the day?  I may be mixing it up in my mind, we have seen a couple morning scenes where hair is being done or asthma meds given, but I thought it was morning and a strange time for a pop-in.  I think they mentioned wanting to miss traffic in the tunnel, so maybe they were going to have lunch and spend the day in the city. 

[SueB]

5 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

The only minor timeline hiccup for the scene in question is that I think they seemed to be arriving at Randall's door in the morning when the family was getting reading to split for the day?  I may be mixing it up in my mind, we have seen a couple morning scenes where hair is being done or asthma meds given, but I thought it was morning and a strange time for a pop-in.  I think they mentioned wanting to miss traffic in the tunnel, so maybe they were going to have lunch and spend the day in the city. 

I can't remember when it was. I just remember William beating a hasty retreat. Early morning is odd.  Especially to be so dressed up.  Hmmmm

[biakbiak]

11 hours ago, theatremouse said:

It's happened twice in four episodes, so for me, that's currently "a lot". It also doesn't make sense they didn't even call or text in the car on the way over. Even if they're not still in Pittsburgh, Randall seemed surprised enough I do not think they also live in NJ. They had a reason to be passing through (Hamilton). They did not have a good reason to not have mentioned they might stop by when doing so.

As for Kevin, we saw him in a hotel in NY already. So he clearly intended to stay in one. It seemed like only after he couldn't reach Kate he decided he wanted some time with his brother, and therefore showed up unannounced, intending to stay overnight. 

Also, Randall did the ultimate randI'm pop in on William.

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 10/21/2016 at 11:22 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I can't remember who said it, but someone put it in an excellent way: it's more of a miscommunication on both ends that definitely led to Rebecca feeling hostile and attacked, just like Yvette might have felt inferior to someone like Rebecca. I found Yvette's tone very telling that she might have been judging Rebecca. I do think both came across bad in their initial conversation, but the main point is that Rebecca went to ask Yvette for the barber's number. She did make the first step, and that clearly eventually leads to a friendship between the families. They clearly get over their initial meeting, which is good. 

But I've rewatched that scene several times now (the initial meeting) and I honestly felt like Yvette was less than inviting toward Rebecca. It's mostly her line of "When a white family adopts a black child and doesn't introduce themselves to any of us, we tend to take notice" has a personal tone to it. Not Yvette's fault, of course, but she's definitely judging Rebecca before knowing her. 

I think Yvette was misjudging Rebecca, just as Rebecca was doing the same to her. Rebecca tried to be friendly to Yvette; she stuck out her hand for Yvette to shake after she found Randall, but Yvette's tone got Rebecca to act hostile back. If Yvette had been less passive aggressive, I don't think Rebecca would have been quite as harsh. However, the question remains: would Rebecca have gone back to ask for that number? Maybe, maybe not. But Rebecca was also making assumptions about Yvette's intentions. And then she stuck her foot in her mouth unintentionally, so there was definitely just a case of miscommunication in this instance. 

I just found Yvette to be a bit passive aggressive in that initial meeting. She had good intentions, and I totally understand why she might not have wandered over to tell Rebecca/Jack about where Randall was, but she could have steered that conversation in a better direction. However, things definitely worked out in their second meeting. Rewatching that scene as well, Yvette seemed pleasantly surprised that Rebecca came back over to ask for that number. It's as if she was surprised that Rebecca would even consider that. I know that Rebecca needed to make that step, and she even recognized that Randall probably needed to be around more black families, so it's good. 

I wanted to ask someone who'd rewatched that scene if Yvette had her hand on her hip.   If not, that's honestly the only thing missing from accompanying her tone, in my head.    I'm not assigning any greater a responsibility to Yvette than I would have to Rebecca, although I did say and still feel that if concern for Randall were her primary issue, then telling Rebecca where he was would've been first.   If I put aside whose fault it was that things went pear-shaped lol (™ DearEvette), I still come away with that Yvette took it there with her tone and insertion of race into an initially non racial situation.  Especially, given the way that Rebecca greeted her.   And I'm saying this as someone who will not hesitate to scrutinize a scenario over the rim of my glasses, but time, place, tone and context.    Let me put it the way a poster upthread did.  For the purposes of our argument, make Rebecca black and adopted a black child.   She still hasn't introduced herself to Yvette and co.   I get that the entire kerfuffle came from cultural ignorance, that's not my issue.  I'm saying I think that ignorance was innocent.   I dunno, ya'll are nice.  Id've let her ass have it.

On 10/22/2016 at 10:38 AM, Clanstarling said:

It was a little hard for me to judge Yvette, when at that moment I was judging Rebecca too. We mothers can be a judgy lot. It was true back in the 80's when I had my kids, and I hear it's only gotten worse.

But actually, it was Rebecca dragging Randall away from where he was happily playing that made me judge her the most.

As to what gives Yvette the right, I think generally speaking, it's true that we don't have the right to judge someone else's parenting (though boy howdy, do we do a lot of that here). I think, however, in this case it's a little more complex than that. I think seeing a child you might consider one of your own, being raised in a lily white family, and that family seems to make no effort to understand and provide for the child's different needs (culturally, physically), you might feel a little ownership and the right to comment on it. Not saying it's necessarily right, but natural.

Slightly off topic (but I'm including it because of Randall's need for a barber who knew how to cut his hair). Back in the 90's I had a friend, who'd adopted a black girl. She told me that the hair products she needed to properly care for her daughter's hair were kept in locked cabinets in the stores. I found it hard to believe, and was horrified when I went to the store and confirmed that they were under lock and key. This is no news, I'm sure, to the black women on the forum, but it was an eye-opening experience to this lily white woman.

I don't know - I still worry about how we were/are as parents, even though our kids are fully grown adults.

It's still true today but I think it's a function of that store's specific customer demographic - which may include race as a component but it's not the primary issue.   In areas of the country where meth addiction is prevalent, you can't buy a certain innocuous remedy over the counter (I think it's Preparation H but don't quote me).   Likewise, there are products that are freely available in the same store chain in another location because of their community-specific value.     In my Walgreens they lock up baby lotion and battery operated toothbrushes but you can go get African Pride (that's candy scented hairgrease) right off the shelf.    I'm too scared to google what baby lotion is being used for but a $6 bottle of it has more value than a $24 can of baby formula in the same section.   A thousand years ago in college I worked at a cvs.   You could only buy cigarettes ($4-5/pack at the time) from cashier at a raised platform in the front of the store but were able to pick a $40 bottle of perfume off the shelf unassisted.  Say all that to say in any demographic, thieves/street value determine store policy.    At least I hope so.  If this applied to all the black hair stuff you and your friend saw, combs too, that could've been a different problem.

16 hours ago, kili said:

Apparently it is. I once had the in-laws show up with a moving truck to move my SIL into my house. When I blurted out in shock that my husband (who was away) hadn't said anything about this, my FIL tersely told me that families don't have to ask. "Families should always be ready to take in another family member". She stayed for 2 years.

Kevin has already demonstrated that he "just drops in" with Kate. Toby would get quite annoyed at Kevin suddenly bouncing into the room (interrupting both nightcaps and breakfast).  Randall himself brought home an unannounced house guest that has not left in three weeks.

 I wish Beth luck.

Not that this means anything to you, but I am highly impressed that you refer to this man as your (present-tense) husband. 

[kili]

Quote

Not that this means anything to you, but I am highly impressed that you refer to this man as your (present-tense) husband. 

We finally moved to a two-bedroom house....which may explain why Randall's massive house only has three bedrooms.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, kili said:

We finally moved to a two-bedroom house....which may explain why Randall's massive house only has three bedrooms.

Long ago I knew a older couple (one was an architect) who designed and built their Sausalito home with only one bedroom - specifically to avoid unwanted guests. It was beautiful, and probably larger than any home I've lived in. But no room for guests.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, kili said:

We finally moved to a two-bedroom house....which may explain why Randall's massive house only has three bedrooms.

The $64,000 question is where is Kevin going to sleep, if William already had to displace one of the girls?

[Dowel Jones]

23 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

And as for Kevin, we know that he just moved to New York and has presumably been staying in a hotel until he finds his own apartment. Seeing as New York can be expensive, though, he probably made the choice to try and stay with Randall for a few days/weeks while finding an apartment on his own. So his drop by was more of a "hi, can I stay here for a few days" type thing. So, for now, it does make sense. 

However, Kevin was making $2 million a year off of "The Manny", so I think he would be able to afford temporary lodgings, even at New York prices.  Unless he had blown all his earnings back in LA.

[jennifer6973]

15 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

The only minor timeline hiccup for the scene in question is that I think they seemed to be arriving at Randall's door in the morning when the family was getting reading to split for the day?  I may be mixing it up in my mind, we have seen a couple morning scenes where hair is being done or asthma meds given, but I thought it was morning and a strange time for a pop-in.  I think they mentioned wanting to miss traffic in the tunnel, so maybe they were going to have lunch and spend the day in the city. 

maybe they were going to a Matinee, they have those right?

[SueB]

6 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

However, Kevin was making $2 million a year off of "The Manny", so I think he would be able to afford temporary lodgings, even at New York prices.  Unless he had blown all his earnings back in LA.

I think Kevin is going to be in a world of hurt if the show sues him for breach of contract. But he's likely been doing the Manny for 5 years, so I think Kate has probably organized his finances such that he's okay.  Because Kate would do that.  

 

12 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

I wanted to ask someone who'd rewatched that scene if Yvette had her hand on her hip.   If not, that's honestly the only thing missing from accompanying her tone, in my head.   

No hand on hip. In fact at the start her arm movements were very placating and don't worry.  But ITA on the tone and the phrasing. She had a dramatic pause before "any of us".  OTOH, Rebecca did just bust into where Yvette was seated and started scolding Randall.  So Rebecca came in with emotion.  Yvette, IMO, first tried to calm her down but then DID (again IMO) come across as judgmental about Rebecca not having introduced herself to the black families. Later, however, when Rebecca asked if Randall should wear sunscreen, Yvette's laugh was completely without malice.  I think she understood how hard Rebecca was trying and really warmed to her right then.  So I'm guessing that Yvette realized that Rebecca didn't introduce herself when they moved into the neighborhood because she didn't know it was something they would notice.  Perhaps Yvette had previously thought Rebecca hadn't introduced herself because she didn't want Randall to interact with the black neighbors.  Yvette strikes me as genuinely caring and simply misread Rebecca at the start.  Subsequently, I think she turned into Team Rebecca.  

[KaveDweller]

On 10/23/2016 at 9:14 PM, SueB said:

Then consider that New Jersey, according to a few financial websites, offers tax incentives and several big finance firms have moved there (example JP Morgan in 2015)  

http://www.nj.gov/njbusiness/industry/financial/

http://careers.jpmorgan.com/careers/locations/jersey-city

But Randall & Beth live in a lovely suburb. http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/new-jersey/richest-cities-nj/

Well take a look at Far Hills

Just a relatively short commute from work (45 min to 1 hr during Monday Morning Rush hour... when I calculated the route).

But it's over 2 hrs by car at that time to Philadelphia.  Which "3 hrs by bus" fits nicely.

IF Rebecca and Miguel live in Philadelphia (or any city in easter PA) they could have easily made a stop on the way to the theater district;                                                              they could leave in the morning, get to the house by mid after noon, and leave at 4 in time for dinner at 6 and a show at 8. 

And Kevin can make it out to Far Hills from the Theater District at 9pm at night and get there in just over an hour.

Fits.

I love all the research, but I have to say Far Hills to Jersey City in 45 minutes during rush hour seems a bit optimistic to me. I live a lot closer physically and it would take me more time (although on a potentially more crowded road). In my experience you can never trust Google's "In current traffic" feature.  But I do agree he could easily be somewhere in New Jersey. It fits being near Philadelphia and NYC. And it has a bad reputation, but has plenty of nice suburban towns that could fit where Randall has been shown to be living.

[Tdoc72]

On October 24, 2016 at 5:15 PM, chocolatine said:

The $64,000 question is where is Kevin going to sleep, if William already had to displace one of the girls?

I wondered that too!  I also wonder (and worry) about William's cat. Still in Philly?  With a neighbor?  Given to a shelter?  Where is it?

[SlackerInc]

On 10/21/2016 at 4:15 PM, possibilities said:

I'm astounded that so many people are so upset and angry about how Yvette spoke to Rebecca. All she said is that she knew who Rebecca was, that they all notice. I didn't even think it was that snarky; I thought it was giving Rebecca the awareness that they notice-- and moreover that they care and want to know her. White people often have way less awareness about being watched than Black people in this country. Of course the local community notices. And yes, maybe Yvette was a little disappointed and put off, wondering why Rebecca had not introduced herself-- and why Randall was not allowed to stay even after Yvette reassured her that it was OK, and Rebecca knew he was not drowned or kidnapped or in any other danger. But despite Rebecca not returning the friendliness and being relieved that Randall had some friends and that the other mother was welcoming to him, and she continued to snub Yvette and the other Black moms and not want to know them, I still didn't think Yvette was  coming across extremely hostile or out of line. She was put off, but that seems totally fair to me. Imagine it from her point of view.

I think there is a filter being put over Yvette's behavior that defaults to an interpretation that "she should stay in her place" and totally supports what Randall has been saying about the double standard, how he can never get angry, how people assume the worst and lack empathy or understanding of his position, and even when he's right, he has to be grateful and apologetic and never let anyone see how it feels.

I'm totally with you, and when I was watching this scene I was so annoyed with how horrible Rebecca was being, and assuming (hoping) she would set it right by the end.  And I say this, I hasten to note, as a white guy who, while basically liberal, is (am?) not super politically correct (I've been known to get into Twitter flame wars with BLM activists for instance).  So it's fascinating to me that there is so much disagreement about that scene.  But it's a sign of a well-written show that people can interpret interactions in different ways, just like in real life.  (This was something I really loved about Parenthood too.)

On 10/23/2016 at 5:25 PM, kili said:

Apparently it is. I once had the in-laws show up with a moving truck to move my SIL into my house. When I blurted out in shock that my husband (who was away) hadn't said anything about this, my FIL tersely told me that families don't have to ask. "Families should always be ready to take in another family member". She stayed for 2 years.

I agree with the general consensus here that best practices are to call first.  But I also sympathize with the general sentiment behind what your FIL said, as I definitely believe in the Robert Frost aphorism that "Home is the place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in."

Not much else to say about this episode, other than the fact that I'm apparently falling further and further behind as there's a new one left to watch!  Oh, and that I cosign everyone who loves the music choices, especially at the end.  I was definitely tearing up.  I thought I was hearing Jose Gonzalez (if they haven't used him yet on the show, he would be perfect for it), but I should have known it was Alexi Murdoch, aka the reincarnation of Nick Drake.  :)

[DollEyes]

So far, this how hasn't ceased to amaze or impress. This episode showed how the parents' choices in the past affected the siblings in the present. The trip to the public pool brought out the best and the worst in Jack & Rebecca. When those scrawny little bitches fat-shamed Kate for wearing a bikini, Jack made her feel better about herself. Amazing what an old t-shirt can do. Regarding Rebecca, while I know that being a White parent to a Black child isn't easy and no parent likes having their parenting skills questioned, I think that Rebecca overreacted a little when she first met the Black mom, who may have raised an eyebrow when she first met Rebecca, but she didn't go ghetto on her, dissing Rebecca, working her neck and calling Rebecca "out her name," as it's called in the 'hood. Unfortunately, Jack & Rebecca's concerns for Kate & Randall were at Kevin's expense, which Kevin rightly put them on blast for. Jack & Rebecca were so busy obsessing over their other kids that they neglected Kevin, who could have drowned because of it. Parents aren't "perfect," but if they're going to a public place on one of the hottest days of the year with their kids, watching all of them should be their top priority. 

  Getting back to Kevin, he almost drowned in a different way at his first Broadway audition for a play that's a straight drama, not a sitcom like he's used to. Kevin's winning the part may inspire skepticism, especially his co-star's, but I think he might pleasantly surprise a lot of people, including himself. 

  Re Kate, her insecurities and jealousy reared their ugly head because of Toby's pretty ex-wife. Kate's stalking her was bad enough, but actually getting a job at her shop was cringeworthy. Instead of going the stalker route and making a fool of herself in the process, Kate should have just asked Toby about who she was and why they broke up, which could have saved Kate a lot of trouble. 

  Once again, SKB is this show's MVP. Every scene he's in is pure perfection, especially the ones with Ron Cephus Jones, who plays William, who has not only becomes one of my favorite characters, I'm gonna miss him when he dies. As a Black woman, the scene when Randall side-eyed the White audience members who laughed about Tess playing Snow White made perfect sense to me. Relatives laughing about it is one thing; a room full of White strangers doing it is another. However, that Tess was even considered for the lead in the first place is awesome, as Randall pointed out. The most powerful scenes in the episode were the store scene when Randall described how hard it is for a Black man in a White world and the scene when William apologized to Randall for giving him up and told Randall that he (Randall) was a great father. The latte scene touched Randall as much as it touched me. it's moments like these that make me love the show even more. 

[JudyObscure]

As the mother of an only child I've always marveled at how anyone manages more than two.  I would say, half-joking, you only have two hands when crossing the street and only one set of eyes at the pool!  This show proved me right.  Two parents at the pool with three kids, and one almost drowns.  My MIL raised 12 children to healthy adult hood.  It's a great mystery to me.

After reading this entire thread, heavy with discussion about the Yvette/Rebecca clash.  I still can't watch the pool scene without seeing it (partially) as an exaggerated SNL sketch.  Black Mom is irate that White Mom has failed to raise her black child with the correct cultural awareness of -- wait for it-- dry skin and ingrown hairs.  Hello?  Randall has been Rebecca's child since infancy, I'm sure she knows how his skin looks when it's dry and that lotion helps with his dry skin, just like on white people.  My white, straight haired husband occasionally gets ingrown hairs at the back of his neck and on his face if he shaves too close. Any barber of any color who doesn't recognize what that is and what to do to prevent it, needs his license  taken away.  It is laughable to me that Yvette was implying she had proof of negligent parenting over these issues. 

[PRgal]

41 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

As the mother of an only child I've always marveled at how anyone manages more than two.  I would say, half-joking, you only have two hands when crossing the street and only one set of eyes at the pool!  This show proved me right.  Two parents at the pool with three kids, and one almost drowns.  My MIL raised 12 children to healthy adult hood.  It's a great mystery to me.

After reading this entire thread, heavy with discussion about the Yvette/Rebecca clash.  I still can't watch the pool scene without seeing it (partially) as an exaggerated SNL sketch.  Black Mom is irate that White Mom has failed to raise her black child with the correct cultural awareness of -- wait for it-- dry skin and ingrown hairs.  Hello?  Randall has been Rebecca's child since infancy, I'm sure she knows how his skin looks when it's dry and that lotion helps with his dry skin, just like on white people.  My white, straight haired husband occasionally gets ingrown hairs at the back of his neck and on his face if he shaves too close. Any barber of any color who doesn't recognize what that is and what to do to prevent it, needs his license  taken away.  It is laughable to me that Yvette was implying she had proof of negligent parenting over these issues. 

I get that Yvette can be concerned Rebecca might not be exposing Randall to black culture, but I agree with you on the skin part - Rebecca would have bathed Randall (and Kate and Kevin) when he was very young, so of course she knows!  However, 2016, I would hope someone like Yvette would stay out even more - not all black children adopted into non-black homes are African American!  If I adopted a black child from, say, Haiti, I would expose him/her to Hatian culture more than, say, black Canadian culture.  This is, of course, based on my assumption that international adoption outside of Asia wasn't as big back in the early 80s. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I wonder if the whole divide over appropriate drop-ins might be regional. As a child I lived in a city, and if I wanted to play with my friends, I just walked around the block and knocked on the door. Also, my parents would drop in on my grandparents, aunts, and uncles without a call ahead if we were "in the neighborhood", which, considering we lived within a ten minute drive of almost all of them, was fairly frequent. It's a habit I still have, dropping in on my aunt and my grandmother when I got out of work early during times my jobs were in their respective neighborhoods. 

However, having migrated to the suburbs, I would never, EVER drop in on a friend unannounced. Most of them live 30+ minutes away, and heaven forbid I go all that way only for them to be busy/not home. I wasn't allowed to waste my parents' gas and time that way, and definitely wouldn't do that to myself. 

[SueB]

I think the drop in is definitely a function of location and era.  For today's era with omnipresent cell phones, not calling ahead for either Rebecca or Kevin at Randall's house qualifies as odd to me. And he lived pretty out of the way from the highway. OTOH, with how close Kate and Kevin were (talking multiple times a day on the phone), dropping in doesn't bother me as much. It's something I suspect they both did in LA. Plus she's his assistant.  There's a level of 'work-contact' that is equally informal enough for drop ins IMO. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by SueB

[Clanstarling]

As someone who doesn't keep their house as tidy as it should be, and who likes to take my bra off after a day's work, I cannot stand drop ins. My family, who otherwise had no concept of boundaries, would never just drop in. The mister, who does, drops in on people all the time. Drives me crazy. When we visit our grown kids, they know ahead of time and I send them a text heads-up when we leave the house, and when we're a half hour out from theirs.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Clanstarling

[jeansheridan]

This isn't my usual sort of show. Every so often I fall for a family drama. Evergreen comes to mind. I did like Gilmore Girls too. But I must admit I'm falling for this one although it does make me cringe with the cheese sometimes. Like really cringe. I couldn't watch the singing scene last week. Shudder. This week I cringed during the audition scene. I just couldn't watch it. Too painful.

But I do like that their issues as a family are pretty realistic. I was most definitely that heavy little girl in a bad bathing suit except I didn't even try to join the cute girls. That little girl is pretty terrific. All the kids are really good on this show which I think speaks well of the adult actors. And Mandy Moore just radiates decency even when she's irritable (and I love that she was reading Misery and not something more "literary").

And I like that the show admits that there are a few differences raising an African-American child like the hair and taking care of your child's skin. This show is set pre-Internet. Really, who can she ask easily? It's awkward to ask and admit you just don't know. And I kind of wonder how their extended family felt about this adoption. It was such a loving but impulsive choice. And since I'm not made of stone, of course love should trump the difficulties. But I like that the show is exploring them delicately.

I love how Randall's neighbors were kind of horrified (as they should be!) but really how do you apologize?

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/18/2016 at 11:37 PM, memememe76 said:

What I find interesting about young Kate was how extrovert she was, much like her dad. Adult Kate is is so withdrawn now. I wonder what she was like in her teens. I also notice that young Kate and Kevin don't really do anything together. 

This was such a good episode. Mandy and Milo are sooooo good. And I hated Jess on Gilmore Girls. 

I wonder if there is a fourth child. That fourth kid would feel so left out of the Big Three. 

That photo with the mother Rebecca befriended was kinda weird, as her child is missing in that photo. If I were Randall, it would be weird to hang a photo of your friend's mom and not the friend. 

Did we ever even see the kid? I saw kids and other adults but I cannot even recall what her son looked like. Could be I missed it but the interaction seemed solely focused on the mothers. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/19/2016 at 0:17 AM, bybrandy said:

Kate made his relationship with his ex wife all about her and her insecurities and he was the one being harsh?   I know he snapped at her but she totally went behind his back to find out about his personal life and then made it all about how she stacked up.   Seriously, totally team Toby here.  In fact the part where Toby didn't tell her she was a complete and total nutter who needed some serious therapy stat is a testament to how much not a bad guy he is.   I mean at this point he might be headed the other way.   

I don't think it was so much about her being the lead as her being literally snow white whose complexion was white as snow and is the fairest (IE lightest complexioned not most able to referee) in the land.   

Yea, that's what I got, too. Like there was some irony in the "white" character being one of the few brown-skinned children in the school. I think if she had played Cinderella or some other fairy tale character the audience wouldn't have found it funny. 

Also, it's one thing to look into your current's ex's background online - even if you're just curious (nosy). Actually going to her store was another level. And while I know she didn't plan on interviewing for a job, it did happen, and it is quite strange. Then romanticizing Toby's ex-wife was even more odd. Not Kate's greatest moment. I agree, she made his relationship with the ex-wife about her. His not running for the hills after that means he either really likes her or he's nuts. I think the former and a little of the latter mixed in. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/19/2016 at 0:20 AM, Artsda said:

With the photo in Randall's house, I guess the pool lady ends up becoming close to the entire family.  LOL at William being star struck by The Manny. However, he had to have seen the photos in the house before, also didn't the oldest girl have a huge poster of The Manny on the wall addressed to his nieces. I feel like William had to know this information.

I didn't notice the Manny poster until I re-watched the pilot (since it was so good, I had to share it). Sleeping in that room for 3 weeks he must have noticed the Uncle Kevin autograph. This would have been more believable if William was just starstruck, not starstruck and acting as if he didn't know that Kevin was Randall's brother. 

On 10/19/2016 at 1:08 AM, AuntiePam said:

Was the pool segregated?  I was confused (as often happens) because he was the only black kid we saw in the pool until Rebecca went looking for him, and it seemed that the black families were in a separate area. 

But sometimes I see things that aren't there -- which might have happened when Randall's family went to the play.  There was laughter when Snow White was introduced and laughter again when the prince called her "fair".  Those lines weren't the least bit funny, and Randall looked uncomfortable. 

The pool was not segregated by law. It's the all-the-black-kids-sitting-together-in-the-cafeteria phenomenon. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/19/2016 at 6:00 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Oh, Kate I get being insecure/jealous/curious about someone's ex and googling them, but damn, girl! Stay out of her store!

Kate definitely crossed the line by going there in person.  And even if she found herself in an uncomfortable situation, she could have not taken the job. 

Loved William's apology to Randall. I think the reason he hesitated until now was because how do you really apologize for something like that? I'm sure he felt like "I'm sorry" would never be enough to fix the questions and wondering that Randall grew up with and that's exactly why he didn't say it at first. I also really appreciate that William and Randall didn't become instant BFFs once they met. It's much more realistic to show them having these disagreements as they spend time together and get to know each other. The unfolding of their relationship is really intriguing. I like both characters. 

His summary of their issues was so perfect in a way that only a kid would say it too. Older kids would probably filter it a little bit more, but an angry 8 year old is just going to blurt out the truth in the bluntest way possible: mom and dad are too busy making sure Kate doesn't eat and Randall isn't too adopted. Ha! Out of the mouths of babes. This scene made me like grown-up Kevin more. I didn't dislike him but now I totally get why he is the way he is now. 

Unfortunately, I wouldn't say that color blind casting is frequent enough to be unremarkable. There are still people who are complaining about non-white actors being cast as characters who have traditionally been depicted as white. Recent examples of color blind casting that people have complained about: Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm/the Human Torch in the Fantastic Four, Noma Dumezweni as Hermione Grainger in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, Lucy Liu as Watson in Sherlock, and the cast of Hamilton. And even with colorblind casting becoming more frequent, the fact that the character she played is literally called Snow White is ironic. I don't think it's funny but I can see how some parents in the audience would. 

On 10/19/2016 at 6:53 AM, SimoneS said:

I know that Kate is one of the main characters so some people favor her and are determined to dislike Toby, but I cannot believe anyone thinks that he was harsh and should have been sympathetic toward Kate. She behaved like a freaking nutjob.  She  stalked the man's ex-wife and got a job under false pretenses. What she did was unhinged, deceptive and cruel. If someone had done that to her, most of the people here would lose it. Frankly, Toby wasn't harsh enough. If anything he was way too kind and understanding, getting over his anger too quickly. He should have turfed her out the door and told her to go see a psychologist. Seriously, Toby can do better.

I agree. I like Kate a whole lot and I feel for her. But she went too far. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/19/2016 at 8:55 AM, Lostinthehouse said:

Kate acted like a normal, insecure woman.  Her insecurity is shown so many times in this series so far that her stalking the ex was totally in character.  I was very much like Kate about 10 years ago when I "stalked" a boyfriend's ex.  Once when he was out of town on business and I was staying in his apartment, I rifled through all his papers, looking for "something" (anything) about his ex.  I found 2 photos of her hidden in a cupboard above the fridge.  I promptly ripped up the photos and took them directly to the outside garbage dumpster.  Was I / am I crazy?  No, just insecure.

This show gets me every single week.  It will be unbearable when William's cancer advances;  I will be heartbroken when we learn what happened to Jack (not foreseeing good things here), I am not looking forward to seeing Kate's continuing insecurity (although it is inevitable), and any more scenes with Randall will make me watch with a kleenex box in my lap.  It's a stellar example of what television should be, and what other dramas should strive to be.

I was disappointed with Kate this episode. On the other hand, I can see the parallels they're trying to make with her character. I wasn't a literature major but I'll try to explain what I mean. Everything about her is magnified. She's not plus-sized or curvy; she's obese. She's not insecure; she's stalker-ish. You can't compare her to

I can see an insecure person trashing the photos of her boyfriend's ex. I think many people feel they should have been tossed anyway since he was in a new relationship. However, going to see your boyfriend's ex in person at her store and then working for her under false pretenses? I think that's a totally different level of insecurity. And that's what needs to be understood about Kate's issues. Still, I wish she hadn't gone so far with the ex.  SMH. 

As a matter of fact, I'm thinking that knowing Toby's ex was mean will make her think that he only wants her because she's "safe" and won't hurt him. I think she'll be less likely to believe that Toby is really attracted to her and more inclined to think he likes her because she won't cheat. Or that maybe his weight gain has made him lower his standards. I hope that doesn't happen because I like Kate. But I see this as a possibility because of the magnitude of her insecurities. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/19/2016 at 9:33 AM, kili said:

Kevin really is transparent in that family. He gets his toy stolen and his brother gets a compliment for finishing the game. He tries to interact with the parents and gets ignored. He's the one whose objections about going to the pool are dismissed. He's the one who can't swim well ("Just go in the shallow end and Randall can stay with you") and in the water and they give him not one iota of attention? When Randall goes missing, he gets yelled at for not keeping a better eye on Randall. Wasn't Randall the one who should be watching him? Yea, I definitely gained more sympathy for adult Kevin after seeing that this need for attention runs deep. For him, it's as real as his siblings' issues. And he's right, he could have died. 

Kevin was hilarious at the bar with Miss Mayne. I don't think you know what friends are. And then she smashes her glass. LOL LOL

Kate went so far over the line the line is a dot (to steal a line from Joey from "Friends"). Cyber-stalking the ex was weird enough, but actually agreeing to an interview so that she could further investigate her? Then actually taking the job and coming to tell Toby how great his ex is? Yikes. And then to hear that he is still recovering from the divorce and how much that ex hurt him? It's not all about you Kate. And stop stalking. Might be an unpopular opinion but I think the cyber-stalking was quite normal. The other stuff that came after it, not so much. 

I actually don't think the problem "Samantha" had with Kate was her weight. "Samantha" and friend were at the pool trying to look cool and older than they are. Kate was goofing around like the little kid she is and wearing a "Care Bear" bikini (before that was ironic). There is an age where suddenly kids start acting cool and an immature friend acting like a super model and waving madly in her Care Bear bikini is the opposite of cool. It was Rebecca who kept insisting that Kate wear a T-shirt. It is Rebecca who isn't comfortable with Kate's weight. I think Rebecca is uncomfortable with Kate's weight because it makes her a target. And it makes her feel like a bad mother, too, I would think. Also, the nasty gram that the girls gave Kate had a picture of a pig on it.

Randall was perfection. And I love how they set things up in the show. At breakfast, Rebecca told him not to scratch his rash. Randall and William are awesome together. One or both of them better be up for Emmys next year. Randall's story has so many great layers and the actor is doing an amazing job portraying them. Yes!

Edited November 9, 2016 by love2lovebadtv

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/19/2016 at 10:56 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I'm not determined to dislike Toby; in fact, I wish that I did like him more. But there have been moments from his character that have made me feel unsettled about him. I'm sure he's a genuinely good guy and we've seen that he cares a lot for Kate. I certainly didn't want to insinuate that I'm fully on Kate's side in the stalking, because I'm not. I feel embarrassed that I even have to point out that I think Kate's stalking was wrong and uncalled for. However, the point I'm trying to make is about Toby. He knows that Kate is a very insecure woman about her weight. Now it's been basically said that Toby's weight gain was due to his divorce. Was he overweight in the past? We don't know that yet. But right now, we know that his 95 pound weight gain was more recent than Kate's struggle all her life. 

I feel for Toby and his story, but Kate had no way of knowing his own struggles. I appreciate that they brought them to the forefront. But I just found him too harsh in his yelling and calling her a nutjob. It's a personal thing for me. Kate's insecurities have taken over her life, and he knows that. I'm glad it worked out by the end of the scene, but the fact that Kate has to tell him every episode that she has these issues and they are not going to go away is just ridiculous. The looking her up is not being a nutjob either. Going through with an unplanned interview? Definitely taking it too far. But I think in these modern days, Facebook Stalking is too common, whether it's with a prospective employer/employee, a new relationship, or new people entering your life. It's too easy to do that in order to find out about a person. I have been guilty in looking up new friends on Facebook and other social media platforms. 

Actually, it was. Sure, Kate was acting more childish and I can see why those girls might not want to hang around her, but it definitely had something to do with her weight. They drew a picture of a pig's face on the piece of paper. 

I agree. I think what's interesting about Rebecca/Jack's ways of parenting is that they mean well for their kids, but they definitely have some work to do in that department. I appreciate that Rebecca handles Kate's weight issues wrong. It shows her flaws as a human being. Her giving Kate fruit while the boys have cereal, and now with her wanting Kate to put a shirt on to not embarrass herself is just something that really shows her struggles as a parent. Meanwhile, Jack goes the opposite way to try to compensate for Rebecca's parenting and he tries to make Kate feel good about herself, no matter what. It's not to say that Jack's a better parent or that Rebecca's a bad parent. Rebecca is clearly trying hard to make Randall feel included in the family, but it's still years in progress. But both of them still have a ways to go, and that's ok. It just leaves Kevin out because he is probably the child that didn't need the parenting that Kate and Randall need, at least at the point in the flashbacks. Which makes me wonder how Kevin was like as a teenager. It could really go either way for him. 

I LOVE that she doesn't know what to do with her kids sometimes - that she ignores Kevin, that she handles Kate's weight improperly, and that she has no idea that Kevin wants to be around people who look like him sometimes. Parents aren't perfect. Raising three kids is no joke. So her character is definitely real. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 10/30/2016 at 2:52 PM, DollEyes said:

So far, this how hasn't ceased to amaze or impress. This episode showed how the parents' choices in the past affected the siblings in the present. The trip to the public pool brought out the best and the worst in Jack & Rebecca. When those scrawny little bitches fat-shamed Kate for wearing a bikini, Jack made her feel better about herself. Amazing what an old t-shirt can do. Regarding Rebecca, while I know that being a White parent to a Black child isn't easy and no parent likes having their parenting skills questioned, I think that Rebecca overreacted a little when she first met the Black mom, who may have raised an eyebrow when she first met Rebecca, but she didn't go ghetto on her, dissing Rebecca, working her neck and calling Rebecca "out her name," as it's called in the 'hood. Unfortunately, Jack & Rebecca's concerns for Kate & Randall were at Kevin's expense, which Kevin rightly put them on blast for. Jack & Rebecca were so busy obsessing over their other kids that they neglected Kevin, who could have drowned because of it. Parents aren't "perfect," but if they're going to a public place on one of the hottest days of the year with their kids, watching all of them should be their top priority. 

  Getting back to Kevin, he almost drowned in a different way at his first Broadway audition for a play that's a straight drama, not a sitcom like he's used to. Kevin's winning the part may inspire skepticism, especially his co-star's, but I think he might pleasantly surprise a lot of people, including himself. 

  Re Kate, her insecurities and jealousy reared their ugly head because of Toby's pretty ex-wife. Kate's stalking her was bad enough, but actually getting a job at her shop was cringeworthy. Instead of going the stalker route and making a fool of herself in the process, Kate should have just asked Toby about who she was and why they broke up, which could have saved Kate a lot of trouble. 

  Once again, SKB is this show's MVP. Every scene he's in is pure perfection, especially the ones with Ron Cephus Jones, who plays William, who has not only becomes one of my favorite characters, I'm gonna miss him when he dies. As a Black woman, the scene when Randall side-eyed the White audience members who laughed about Tess playing Snow White made perfect sense to me. Relatives laughing about it is one thing; a room full of White strangers doing it is another. However, that Tess was even considered for the lead in the first place is awesome, as Randall pointed out. The most powerful scenes in the episode were the store scene when Randall described how hard it is for a Black man in a White world and the scene when William apologized to Randall for giving him up and told Randall that he (Randall) was a great father. The latte scene touched Randall as much as it touched me. it's moments like these that make me love the show even more. 

Yes to everything you've said here!

[smores]

I'm a super pale person who was born in the mid-70s and I've had sunblock slathered on me for as long as I can remember.  Once I was old enough to understand the concept of a sunburn (which was early on, because OUCH!), I also started taking on some of the responsibility for putting it on.  Having divorced parents where one parent didn't feel it was as big of a deal to wear it made for some painful burns, so from about age 8 or so, I was applying it to myself to try to avoid burns.  Even if Randall didn't technically need it (though obviously that was settled), I could see why they'd just apply it anyway, if you have 3 kids all the same age and one doesn't have to have it put on and can get right in the pool? The other two would start fighting wearing it pretty quickly.  

As the previously mentioned pale person, I don't get ashy, but when my skin gets dry, it gets flaky and just falls off.  

In my family, we only do drop ins in one direction.  When we lived in the same town, it was totally ok for us to drop in on my parents at any time, but they wouldn't just drop in on us.  My husband's family, however, are the people who all give each other keys to their houses, so at any given time, some random family member could be in your house.  I was not a fan of this plan and we just kept "forgetting" to get copies of our key made, and then we moved out of the area, so we were able to avoid that entirely.  

[methodwriter85]

The pool scene was set in the late 80's (even if the music was more like 1983 to 1986)...by then, wasn't it a big deal about the ozone layer and stuff? Rebecca seems like the type who would have read up on that kind of stuff and went with it.

This is also Pittsburgh, not Los Angeles or a western state, where it seems like people clung to their suntans hard.

Edited January 17, 2017 by methodwriter85

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

The pool scene was set in the late 80's (even if the music was more like 1983 to 1986)...by then, wasn't it a big deal about the ozone layer and stuff? Rebecca seems like the type who would have read up on that kind of stuff and went with it.

This is also Pittsburgh, not Los Angeles or a western state, where it seems like people clung to their suntans hard.

It's 2016 and people are still writing articles about the myth that Black people don't need sunscreen.

[St. Claire]

I'm older than the Big Three by about 8-9 years, and am so pale that I pretty much glow in the dark. You know those quizzes that show up online and in the magazines as we approach summer with the "...if you can answer 'yes' to at least four of these questions, you're at risk for skin cancer!"? I answer yes to all of them- at least one blistering sunburn in your life (HA. Try multiple blistering sunburns every summer for the first decade of my life; the misshapen freckles on under my eye are actually scars from getting a second sunburn before the peeling from the first one healed), pale skin and light hair and light eyes, anyone in the family diagnosed with skin cancer... I grew up in the mid Atlantic and used what passed for sunscreen (Coppertone Shade was SPF 6) when I was elementary school aged and was finally able to find SPF 15-20 by high school, but my peers were still trying to tan instead of protecting themselves. So, sunscreen was available and used some, but not to the level we see it today.

I've also been noticing the drop ins. My family does an occasional drop in, but it's usually preceded by a phone call ("Hey, we just finished a charity walk near your house; mind if we stop by and see the kids?") and my family can read a room. My BIL, on the other hand, loves to just appear on my doorstep, often at awkward times (6:10 on a worknight, which almost guarantees we've just sat down to eat, but then he'll say he doesn't want to join us and he plops down on the couch and turns on the TV and stays way past his welcome) and everyone in my husband's family just passes it off to his personality. The worst was when he came by with his crazy girlfriend on an evening when I was watching Mad Men DVDs on my own (hubby had a concert to work that evening) and proceeded to take the dog out for a walk and leave crazy girlfriend at the house with me. She got offended by the sexism in the show and complained to BIL about it after they left, and I got a lecture about not being appropriately welcoming to her. This is the same BIL that we agreed to have live with us for "...six months, max," who finally moved out thirteen months later because I needed to turn his room into a nursery and store the gifts I'd gotten at my baby shower at work. 

[debraran]

On 10/30/2016 at 2:52 PM, DollEyes said:

So far, this how hasn't ceased to amaze or impress. This episode showed how the parents' choices in the past affected the siblings in the present. The trip to the public pool brought out the best and the worst in Jack & Rebecca. When those scrawny little bitches fat-shamed Kate for wearing a bikini, Jack made her feel better about herself. Amazing what an old t-shirt can do. Regarding Rebecca, while I know that being a White parent to a Black child isn't easy and no parent likes having their parenting skills questioned, I think that Rebecca overreacted a little when she first met the Black mom, who may have raised an eyebrow when she first met Rebecca, but she didn't go ghetto on her, dissing Rebecca, working her neck and calling Rebecca "out her name," as it's called in the 'hood. Unfortunately, Jack & Rebecca's concerns for Kate & Randall were at Kevin's expense, which Kevin rightly put them on blast for. Jack & Rebecca were so busy obsessing over their other kids that they neglected Kevin, who could have drowned because of it. Parents aren't "perfect," but if they're going to a public place on one of the hottest days of the year with their kids, watching all of them should be their top priority. 

  Getting back to Kevin, he almost drowned in a different way at his first Broadway audition for a play that's a straight drama, not a sitcom like he's used to. Kevin's winning the part may inspire skepticism, especially his co-star's, but I think he might pleasantly surprise a lot of people, including himself. 

  Re Kate, her insecurities and jealousy reared their ugly head because of Toby's pretty ex-wife. Kate's stalking her was bad enough, but actually getting a job at her shop was cringeworthy. Instead of going the stalker route and making a fool of herself in the process, Kate should have just asked Toby about who she was and why they broke up, which could have saved Kate a lot of trouble. 

  Once again, SKB is this show's MVP. Every scene he's in is pure perfection, especially the ones with Ron Cephus Jones, who plays William, who has not only becomes one of my favorite characters, I'm gonna miss him when he dies. As a Black woman, the scene when Randall side-eyed the White audience members who laughed about Tess playing Snow White made perfect sense to me. Relatives laughing about it is one thing; a room full of White strangers doing it is another. However, that Tess was even considered for the lead in the first place is awesome, as Randall pointed out. The most powerful scenes in the episode were the store scene when Randall described how hard it is for a Black man in a White world and the scene when William apologized to Randall for giving him up and told Randall that he (Randall) was a great father. The latte scene touched Randall as much as it touched me. it's moments like these that make me love the show even more. 

I thought Kate went way too far not so much in stalking but in going in and taking a job with her? THAT was scary.

I thought Rebecca should have said something to the girls, catty I know, but just to have them think about how awful they were being. Those kids rarely change, but sometimes they do.

I like how "on demand" had talks with the costars after each episode and the pool episode was so loaded with parental guilt and realizing how imperfect we all are. Kevin's speech was so profound and moving.

I have mixed children and I saw things in a white/black world. The store scene I never noticed with the children but my son who is so honest it's almost compulsive, told me when I was complaining about self check out and no one is ever around to help, "I never have that problem..ever" I said why and he said a manager or staff clerk always saunters over and hangs near the end of the bagging area. He laughed that this is mostly in the all white area he worked in but they should realize how many other people are ripping them off. He would hear white coworkers  "brag" about getting organic fruit but not picking that on register, missing amounts of items, things he never would contemplate or brag about in public.  But stereotypes haven't left us.

I had black women offer to give me hair advice for my kids, some I took and was grateful, some I resented, when "advice" was "do it" and any ideas I had were obviously wrong. So you learn, we are all flawed, all learning, but  we are more alike than not. I had to learn to listen more and so did others, we all love to talk, but listening is the best skill.