Hillary Rodham Clinton: 2016 Democratic Presidential Nominee

[slf]

46 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

So the Dems should have gone ahead and revealed it. 

Do the Reps listen to the Dems wishes and do the right thing? No. They do what is best for them and their base. Every. Single. Time.

The Dems are playing a game following rules when their opposition is following none. I am so sick for turning the other cheek so to speak. They have to cutthroat t stay in the fray. 

I agree with this. Dems always let Republicans set the tone, dictate the narrative, and determine progress. That needs to stop. Republicans are a shrinking demographic absolutely willing to always do the ugly thing at the first opportunity. We outnumber them, blue states contribute far more than red states, our policies generally have more support. We should be setting the pace- they can either keep up or get left behind.

[Duke Silver]

To many white Trump voters, the problem wasn’t her economic stance, but the larger vision—a multi-ethnic social democracy—that it was a part of.

Quote

Some economists found that Trump won in counties affected by trade with China. But among the 52 percent of voters who said economics was the most important issue in the election, Clinton beat Trump by double digits. In the vast majority of swing states, voters said they preferred Clinton on the economy. If the 2016 election had come down to economics exclusively, the working class—which, by any reasonable definition, includes the black, Hispanic, and Asian working classes, too—would have elected Hillary Clinton president.

Quote

For liberals, pluralist social democracy is the project of the future, and any alternative falls somewhere between xenophobic and amoral. But what if the vast majority of white voters who voted for Trump aren’t interested in any version of that future, no matter who the messenger is?

[LisainCali]

Oh, Hillary, ?.  If you are going to come out to the press and speak about the atrocities and unfairness of the election, can't you wash your face and comb your hair?  If you really want to challenge Trumps win, I hope that you will look more like the warrior princess that you really are, than my wet dog after an unwanted bath  (though he's really very cute, and no, not running for office.)

Seriously, I want her to look WELL and healthy - And vibrant - And focused.  She might just win yet.  A long shot, I know.  But, gee, it is understandable if she hides, like Al Gore did.  It's not a good thing that she comes out and reads a speech like a zombie.....?

[shok]

2 hours ago, LisainCali said:

Oh, Hillary, ?.  If you are going to come out to the press and speak about the atrocities and unfairness of the election, can't you wash your face and comb your hair?  If you really want to challenge Trumps win, I hope that you will look more like the warrior princess that you really are, than my wet dog after an unwanted bath  (though he's really very cute, and no, not running for office.)

Seriously, I want her to look WELL and healthy - And vibrant - And focused.  She might just win yet.  A long shot, I know.  But, gee, it is understandable if she hides, like Al Gore did.  It's not a good thing that she comes out and reads a speech like a zombie.....?

Would you say the same thing about any man? Did you post anything about Bernie's unkempt appearance? Or Donald Trump's fake tan?

And people wonder why women have so much trouble breaking glass ceilings.

[Chicken Wing]

8 hours ago, LisainCali said:

Oh, Hillary, ?.  If you are going to come out to the press and speak about the atrocities and unfairness of the election, can't you wash your face and comb your hair?  If you really want to challenge Trumps win, I hope that you will look more like the warrior princess that you really are, than my wet dog after an unwanted bath  (though he's really very cute, and no, not running for office.)

Seriously, I want her to look WELL and healthy - And vibrant - And focused.  She might just win yet.  A long shot, I know.  But, gee, it is understandable if she hides, like Al Gore did.  It's not a good thing that she comes out and reads a speech like a zombie.....?

Aaaaaaand there it is.

[KIMBERLYANN11]

Some of the people who are the most hateful toward women are other women.

[Duke Silver]

https://twitter.com/jasonroeder/status/807624540197007361

[DollEyes]

15 hours ago, LisainCali said:

Oh, Hillary, ?.  If you are going to come out to the press and speak about the atrocities and unfairness of the election, can't you wash your face and comb your hair?  If you really want to challenge Trumps win, I hope that you will look more like the warrior princess that you really are, than my wet dog after an unwanted bath  (though he's really very cute, and no, not running for office.)

Seriously, I want her to look WELL and healthy - And vibrant - And focused.  She might just win yet.  A long shot, I know.  But, gee, it is understandable if she hides, like Al Gore did.  It's not a good thing that she comes out and reads a speech like a zombie.....?

First of all, given what Hillary's been through in the past month, that she's still willing to be seen in public, much less speak, is a miracle. As for her appearance, she looked great to me. Hillary did win the popular vote, by almost 3 million and counting. As far as I'm concerned, Hillary's not just a "warrior princess"; she's the President, no matter what Trump thinks or the Electoral College says. 

[Blergh]

5 hours ago, KIMBERLYANN11 said:

Some of the people who are the most hateful toward women are other women.

As are some of the folks most hateful toward men being other men.

 

Regardless of the above facts, I agree that it's a bit bogus to pick on someone's appearance when they are attempting to make an important stand which the candidate WAS doing.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Blergh
making it ontopic

[KIMBERLYANN11]

48 minutes ago, Blergh said:

As are some of the folks most hateful toward men being other men.

 

Regardless of the above facts, I agree that it's a bit bogus to pick on someone's appearance when they are attempting to make an important stand which the candidate WAS doing.

And of course that's exactly what I was referring to.  Men seem more able to attack other men on the content of their message, without employing juvenile, grade-school sniping about appearances.  Of course there is the occasional "Krispy-Kreme Christy" comment but in general men can attack each other verbally but don't often seem to hit below the belt as much.

You want to see a bunch of women rip each other up?  Go check out a on-line discussion between stay-at-home moms and working moms.  It's brutal.  Both sides rip each other up - attacking their mothering skills, their work ethic, everything about each other when all they really need to do is support each other and have some understanding.  If it were customary in our culture for men to either choose to stay home or to work, I doubt there would be the amount of hate I see spewed out in those discussions. Support networks would abound.

And don't you dare be a middle school girl who has the sheer nerve to develop before the other girls in her class.  Most spectacularly I might add.  

This was only brought up because 52% of white women voted against their best interests and I am told it can't all be attributed to racism.  I hear the same type of things said about her that were said about that innocent middle school girl who didn't ask for boobs but got them anyway.  Jealousy?  The deep-down feeling that maybe we just aren't as good as men?  Who knows - but you don't often see that type of self-hatred projected outward by guys (although yes, I'm sure it happens at times). 

[theredhead77]

A judge in MI halted the recount effort: http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Michigan-recount-over-Pennsylvania-sets-hearing-405757265.html

Quote

A recount that started Monday ended Wednesday night. U.S. District Judge Mark Goldsmith set aside his earlier order that got the recount moving, acting after the state appeals court said Stein doesn't qualify as an "aggrieved" candidate under Michigan law.

"This is a victory for the taxpayers and voters of Michigan," said Ronna Romney McDaniel, chairman of the state Republican Party.

The state elections board said the recount would stop after Goldsmith's decision. Trump won Michigan by about 10,700 votes over Clinton.

Since all three states were needed to have a glimmer of hope... I guess that's all folks.

Godspeed to America and the world. We're gonna need it.

[backformore]

23 hours ago, shok said:

Would you say the same thing about any man? Did you post anything about Bernie's unkempt appearance? Or Donald Trump's fake tan?

And people wonder why women have so much trouble breaking glass ceilings.

Exactly!  she's not a TV star, she's a mature woman with a hell of a lot of experience and smarter than most people.  I don't think she looked like she needed to wash her face, I thought she looked like a woman her age looks like when they don't have makeup and hair people brushing and powdering every flaw - like she did at the debates and on the campaign trail.  Hillary Clinton is not the kind of woman who says "there's a camera, I better retouch my lipstick."  She is more concerned with substance. 

Anyone who keeps saying that Hillary was a bad candidate, that the Dems screwed up by not choosing someone more "likeable" -  She got somewhere around 3 million  MORE votes than Trump -  she is VERY popular, and VERY likeable. 

[DollEyes]

Here's a great tweet from Tom Nichols, of Radio Free Tom:

Quote

If HRC chose a SecState who ran an oil giant and got a medal from Putin, the GOPers defending Trump would re-convene the Salem witch trials.

[MulletorHater]

On 12/11/2016 at 9:13 AM, KIMBERLYANN11 said:

Some of the people who are the most hateful toward women are other women.

AMEN!  I always knew that the Hillary Clinton hatred was real, but I have to admit that I was astounded that some of the more visceral comments directed toward her came from other women.  I saw the tee shirts, heard the commentary and will never forget it.

[Duke Silver]

https://twitter.com/ananavarro/status/808433423010435072

[ruby24]

Got so close? She WON. By 3 million votes.

The system handed it to the guy who came in second.

[slf]

Every time Trump comes out and says or does something stupid (...so basically every time he comes out of hiding) my chest tightens and I get this intense longing for what it would've been like with HRC. Republicans would be angry but what else is new? The past month would've seen a peaceful, elegant transition of power. Cabinet selections would be of skilled, and qualified, men and women; any disappointments would be due to preference, not a horrifying lack of morality on part of the candidate. Putin would be disappointed, China would not be making "fuck with me, I dare you" flyovers, and the Orange Menace would be... who cares? I could enjoy the rest of 2016 and look toward 2017 without worrying that the CIA pulling some '80s peak spy shit was the best hope for our country.

[KIMBERLYANN11]

2 minutes ago, slf said:

Every time Trump comes out and says or does something stupid (...so basically every time he comes out of hiding) my chest tightens and I get this intense longing for what it would've been like with HRC. Republicans would be angry but what else is new? The past month would've seen a peaceful, elegant transition of power. Cabinet selections would be of skilled, and qualified, men and women; any disappointments would be due to preference, not a horrifying lack of morality on part of the candidate. Putin would be disappointed, China would not be making "fuck with me, I dare you" flyovers, and the Orange Menace would be... who cares? I could enjoy the rest of 2016 and look toward 2017 without worrying that the CIA pulling some '80s peak spy shit was the best hope for our country.

The orange menace would be happy as a pig in shit. He didn't want the damn job - he wanted to have his little Trump TV deal and rake in money from rubes. He wouldn't be expected to do horrible things like read or speak like a mature adult - and those sad, awful Saturday Night Live people wouldn't be all up in his grill stomping his delicate feefees. He could be the twitter king and spend the next eight years obsessed with that nasty woman and how she rigged an election by being a worthy candidate - no Russia required.

[backformore]

1 hour ago, slf said:

Every time Trump comes out and says or does something stupid (...so basically every time he comes out of hiding) my chest tightens and I get this intense longing for what it would've been like with HRC. Republicans would be angry but what else is new? The past month would've seen a peaceful, elegant transition of power. Cabinet selections would be of skilled, and qualified, men and women; any disappointments would be due to preference, not a horrifying lack of morality on part of the candidate. Putin would be disappointed, China would not be making "fuck with me, I dare you" flyovers, and the Orange Menace would be... who cares? I could enjoy the rest of 2016 and look toward 2017 without worrying that the CIA pulling some '80s peak spy shit was the best hope for our country.

YES - because, with Hillary, I TRUST that she's smart, she's informed, and she would make decisions based on what was good for the country.  I trusted that she could take charge, that most of the decisions she made were  going to be made with knowledge and thoughtful consideration. 

With Trump - he says things, and I say "wait!  Doesn't he understand?  does he KNOW what he's talking about?"  I sometimes feel that I (and many posters here and on Twitter)  have more knowledge and intelligence than Trump, and understand the implications of what he says and does better than he does.

I don't want to feel like I can't take my eye off the ball, like I have to check the political headlines every fuckin day to see if the president has made some major blunder.  I don't want to worry that he is answering to outside influences who have bad intentions, or making decisions based on the implications for his many business interests, instead of being based on what's good for the American people.

[slf]

2 hours ago, KIMBERLYANN11 said:

He could be the twitter king and spend the next eight years obsessed with that nasty woman and how she rigged an election by being a worthy candidate - no Russia required.

As offensive as I find what he did, I do get a sick satisfaction out of knowing it took twenty years of cooked-up scandals, eight investigations (each of which exonerated her), massive voter suppression, ridiculously imbalanced media coverage, F.B.I. interference, and the Russian government to stop her. And Trump still only won by 80,000 votes.

A visual representation of this election:

(*Joey is Hillary. No disrespect meant to the ladies of Friends)

1 hour ago, backformore said:

 I sometimes feel that I (and many posters here and on Twitter)  have more knowledge and intelligence than Trump, and understand the implications of what he says and does better than he does.

No no no no no. Don't get it twisted: you and I and pretty much everyone else on this forum absolutely have more knowledge and intelligence than Trump. Observable fact. I would much rather have you as my president than him, not to damn you with faint praise.

Edited December 13, 2016 by slf

[backformore]

Gee, Thanks @slf!  (it's a job I'd never want, and cannot do)   The one thing I do have on Trump, though,  is humility.   I am not a narcissist, so I'm able to say when I'm in over my head and don't know what the fuck I'm doing. 

But you are right - I'd rather have someone who admits they don't know how to handle things, and gets help doing it, than Trump, who acts like it's no big deal, because his smart brain can do anything.

Of course, my first act as president would be to put Hillary in as VP, and then  I'd have a health crisis and be unable to lead the country.  (My heel spurs are acting up again!)

[ruby24]

7 minutes ago, backformore said:

Gee, Thanks @slf!  (it's a job I'd never want, and cannot do)   The one thing I do have on Trump, though,  is humility.   I am not a narcissist, so I'm able to say when I'm in over my head and don't know what the fuck I'm doing. 

But you are right - I'd rather have someone who admits they don't know how to handle things, and gets help doing it, than Trump, who acts like it's no big deal, because his smart brain can do anything.

Of course, my first act as president would be to put Hillary in as VP, and then  I'd have a health crisis and be unable to lead the country.  (My heel spurs are acting up again!)

Sometimes I wish this whole thing had been so much of an act on his part that he suddenly reverted back to being a Democrat now that he got elected.

But that requires focus and ability to actually care about anything and pay attention to things. Which he doesn't have, so that means the Republicans really are running the show and picking all these god awful people to fill the administration.

[backformore]

SOMETHING is happening.

all these things happened in the few hours:

The news story about the Turkish president blackmailing Trump (linked elsewhere, but here: preview of Newsweek story about Turkey blackmailing Trump )

Jennifer Palmieri, communications director for Hillary's campaign, who hasn't been heard from since the election - does an interview on Rachel Maddow, talks about the Russian hacking of the election.  The conversation goes to the electoral college asking for the information about the Russian influence on the election.

John Podesta, chair of HRC for America - resurfaces on Twitter after being MIA since the election.  He tweets about the electoral college members wanting the intelligence info about the Russian interference in the election.

maybe I'm an eternal optimist, but I wonder if the Hillary camp is going to push hard for the electoral college to switch over to her.

[navelgazer]

43 minutes ago, backformore said:

SOMETHING is happening.

[snip]

maybe I'm an eternal optimist, but I wonder if the Hillary camp is going to push hard for the electoral college to switch over to her.

I doubt any Republican electors would switch due to a plea from HRC's campaign, but I do think they would switch if their patriotism was appealed to, like that one elector from Texas.  Twitler will be impeachable the day he takes the oath anyway.  He's blackmail bait.  The NeverTrump crowd could prove useful.  

I'm not optimistic exactly, but I've read so many different places that a horrifying scenario like this is exactly what the EC was created to prevent.  

Edited December 13, 2016 by navelgazer

[LisainCali]

"Would you say the same thing about any man? Did you post anything about Bernie's unkempt appearance? Or Donald Trump's fake tan?

And people wonder why women have so much trouble breaking glass ceilings."

Of course I would, and I have.  Trump's hair is an atrocity, and has been the subject of jokes on late night tv forever.  And "Tubby" certainly seems to have become his nickname.  But Hillary has been criticized for being frail and physically tired.  I just think that maybe TRYING to look more vibrant might have been a good idea.  

Also, I am not a fan of the concept that women have glass ceilings these days.  In the 60's and 70's, yes.  

But why doesn't anyone seem to notice that there were only 2 women who threw their own hat into the ring to run?  Republican side, 16 men ran, and 1 woman  who has no Government experience. On the Democratic side, 1 woman and 1 man (who was allowed to run as if he's a Democrat, because they thought he was harmless.  He wasn't).  The Republican primary had 4 minorities in the mix.  None of those got elected either.  

There were only 2 women who even TRIED to run.  There are plenty of female Governors and Senators and Congressmen all over the country.  Why aren't more of them wanting to be President?  

Edited December 13, 2016 by LisainCali
Added a sentence.

[Chicken Wing]

Quote

Of course I would, and I have.  Trump's hair is an atrocity, and has been the subject of jokes on late night tv forever.  And "Tubby" certainly seems to have become his nickname.  But Hillary has been criticized for being frail and physically tired.  I just think that maybe TRYING to look more vibrant might have been a good idea.  

But why should she, or any woman, anywhere, at any point, try to "look more vibrant"? Humpty Trumpty's hair is regularly made fun of because it's a ridiculous-looking thing that may or may not even be hair, and he's a bit on the hefty side though I personally wouldn't call him "tubby" -- but I don't recall anyone ever actually questioning why he doesn't care to do something better with his hair or lose a few pounds in order to make himself look more presentable. Let's please not pretend the same would occur if a woman dared regularly appear in public with unkempt hair and a portly frame. This is the sad reality that we very sadly still live in: A man is judged by his character and accomplishments, as he and everyone ought to be, but a woman first and foremost catches people's attention by the fact that she isn't wearing makeup.

[Padma]

1 hour ago, LisainCali said:

"Would you say the same thing about any man? Did you post anything about Bernie's unkempt appearance? Or Donald Trump's fake tan?

And people wonder why women have so much trouble breaking glass ceilings."

Of course I would, and I have.  Trump's hair is an atrocity, and has been the subject of jokes on late night tv forever.  And "Tubby" certainly seems to have become his nickname.  But Hillary has been criticized for being frail and physically tired.  I just think that maybe TRYING to look more vibrant might have been a good idea.  

I don't know where you saw Hillary, but I thought she looked well and gave a good speech in the senate. I was happy to see her.

As for Trump, he's quite flabby and portly when he's on the golf course, but that's not why I call him "Tubby". I use it because it's one of the few things that is important to him--how people perceive his physical appearance--and because he has such a dislike of fat people. (Also, it is childlike--like he is--and also makes me think of a cartoon character which puts me in a better mood when thinking of him than any of the names I would -really- like to call him.  I admit that I like to use a nickname rather than his name--just as he did with "Lyin' Ted", "Little Marco" and "Crooked Hillary"--because it shows contempt and disrespect.)

[Duke Silver]

I found this tweet so apropos because I had an exchange (not of my choosing) with a Trump supporter today.  I asked him to please tell me, specifically, with cites to specific date/sender/recipient, what he found so disqualifying about HRC based on hacked emails.  Needless to say, all I got in response were the typical Trump supporter defaults of applause lines & standard sound bites.

https://twitter.com/Anthony/status/808783184959774721

[stormy]

Well, finally, some good news for Hillary.

The esteemed Benghazi committee has closed.

Don't suppose slimy Kurt Gowdy and sleazy Jason Chaffitz might have some investigating of their supreme leader to keep them busy.

[theredhead77]

3 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

I found this tweet so apropos because I had an exchange (not of my choosing) with a Trump supporter today.  I asked him to please tell me, specifically, with cites to specific date/sender/recipient, what he found so disqualifying about HRC based on hacked emails.  Needless to say, all I got in response were the typical Trump supporter defaults of applause lines & standard sound bites.

https://twitter.com/Anthony/status/808783184959774721

Pick me! Pick me! They wanted to order pizza!

[Hanahope]

On 12/13/2016 at 9:02 PM, stormy said:

Well, finally, some good news for Hillary.

The esteemed Benghazi committee has closed.

Of course.  It served its purpose, which was to keep the spectre of Hillary's emails in the public eye as long as necessary to destroy her for the election.

[shok]

A fabulous series of articles on how terribly badly the media handled news (and gossip and lies and rumors) about Hillary Clinton. She was screwed over by the media as badly as she was by Putin and his henchmen. The articles are long, too long for me to copy over here, but well worth the time it will take you to read them and they refute, with the actual facts, almost all of the myriad of falsehoods spread about her.

Part 1 - The Death of Accuracy

Part 2 - emails

Part 3 - Speed and accuracy

Part 4 will be published tomorrow and I'm certainly looking forward to it.

[kokapetl]

On 14/12/2016 at 7:32 AM, Duke Silver said:

I found this tweet so apropos because I had an exchange (not of my choosing) with a Trump supporter today.  I asked him to please tell me, specifically, with cites to specific date/sender/recipient, what he found so disqualifying about HRC based on hacked emails.  Needless to say, all I got in response were the typical Trump supporter defaults of applause lines & standard sound bites.

https://twitter.com/Anthony/status/808783184959774721

This is why I think the influence of the emails is way overestimated. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

This is why I think the influence of the emails is way overestimated. 

I don't know if they were or not, but I don't think their influence has anything to do with what was in them. In fact, the fact that people didn't really know what was in them was worse. The whole story, at least as it came across to me, was that there were these emails that were bad and showed that everything was rigged and Hillary was bad. They were just a sinister cloud.

[backformore]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't know if they were or not, but I don't think their influence has anything to do with what was in them. In fact, the fact that people didn't really know what was in them was worse. The whole story, at least as it came across to me, was that there were these emails that were bad and showed that everything was rigged and Hillary was bad. They were just a sinister cloud.

Absolutely!  People I know who are not particularly politically- minded, talked about "the email scandal"  but when asked, could not say what it was about.  They had "heard"  that Hillary had some super-secret email thing going on, that she was doing some illegal things on.  And, in response to anything negative about Trump, they'd say both candidates are crooked.  THAT was the issue - the myth that Trump and Hillary were "equally bad". 

[callmebetty]

1 minute ago, backformore said:

Absolutely!  People I know who are not particularly politically- minded, talked about "the email scandal"  but when asked, could not say what it was about.  They had "heard"  that Hillary had some super-secret email thing going on, that she was doing some illegal things on.  And, in response to anything negative about Trump, they'd say both candidates are crooked.  THAT was the issue - the myth that Trump and Hillary were "equally bad". 

And that's what's infuriating that what they "thought " could be in the emails was more damning, more sinister than what the President elect was actually SAYING IN HIS OWN WORDS FROM HIS FUCKING MOUTH on Twitter or on tape.  They saw the politician and the reality star.

[PatsyandEddie]

Another news site showed a small piece that stayed that Huma wanted to see the FBI 's search warrants pertaining to the whole email scandal. 

Assange even came out and said that YES Russia was responsible for some of the hacking. What else does drumpf need to hear? The ease with which this "man" lies is only surpassed by the ease that some have believing the bullshit that comes out of the anal sphincter he calls a mouth. 

[Chicken Wing]

That's another problem with the electorate's being so misinformed and uninformed: Too many people only have "headline" knowledge of an issue or topic and have very little knowledge of the "story." Meaning, they heard the broad, general description of what's going on but rarely if ever took the time or effort to actually learn any details about what exactly it is. Regarding Hillary and the emails, all they hear is the broad, general talk about the emails, usually connected to the keywords "scandal" or "corrupt" or "liar" or "investigation" and they hear them over and over and over and that's it. Those vague terms, all negative, form the entire basis of their negative opinion. It does not appear to ever occur to any of these people that they never bothered to learn just what the email talk is even about or what is supposedly so scandalous or corrupt about it and her. Most of them have no idea. They just heard it was "bad." And having that vague idea, that "headline," drilled into their brains over and over and over stuck and they became convinced of everything and, even, convinced that they came to this conclusion of their own rational volition. It's like Inception, only stupid.

[Duke Silver]

5 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

This is why I think the influence of the emails is way overestimated. 

Perhaps, and I know, it' merely anecdotal, but based on Trump supporters I've actually spoken to, specificity isn't required in order for those emails to be damning to HRC.  The fact that it was reported on so much, that Trump talked about them so derisively, was more than enough to do the requisite damage.  I think that's what scary, to me at least: no one I've spoken to can cite me a single, damning email from the hack, but they all believe the emails to contain damning "evidence of wrongdoing."

[ArizonaGrown]

Okay so running the risk of majorly getting run over here I am going to explain some of the reasons why some people like me voted for Trump and not Hillary. Also I am a college graduate so I do not appreciate the comments about my intelligence level and or economic either as they are completely wrong. The emails had very little to do with my problem with Hillary to be honest. I was a registered Democrat since I started voting many many years ago and switched a year ago. Why ? Because I can not get behind a party that continues to fail in my opinion to support the beliefs I think are important to our Country and our Constitution. 

Hillary has a long list of major things that she was involved with that make her look like a sneaky liar and that I can not get over. I happened to love Bill Clinton and really had expected to do the same with her but no I did not as she failed to make me feel like he did- EVER. So here is my list of reasons why I think she is shown to be a liar beyond belief and should not be trusted - Benghazi, Clinton Foundation money laundering and pay-for-play, private server, deleting emails while under investigation, Vince Foster, rigging the election against Bernie Sanders, Whitewater, blaming Bill's rape victims, her friend and mentor was a KKK leader, clinton body count, cattle futures, landing under "sniper fire" lie, stealing from the white house, her cocaine abuse as stated by Paula Jones, laughing and defending a child rapist, Chinagate,Travelgate, IRS gastapo scandal, Norman HSU scandal, Jorge Cabrera scandal, Pardongate. Her cashing in on Iranian fundraising, ripping off Haiti during the earthquake, selling 20% of U.S. Uranium to Putin after Bill's $500k "speech" with Russian bankers. There is a point to be made about fake news but when someone is involved in this much crap I think they are not upstanding and interested in playing by any rules but their own. I can not and will not ever down play what happened to our ambassador and her role - ever.  She lied afterwards about it and when called to the carpet she suddenly fell ill if I remember correctly. I have grown up with the belief that our military will protect such when in other countries to represent us as will our government officials and she not only failed but she caused this man to be murdered - period. This could have been in error with one call but no it was several most on her head and she has not acted one bit sorry and she carries that attitude with her about everything like she is not to be held responsible for any wrong doing when the list and accusations are a mile long - dont tell  me none of it is correct. The worst thing that was found on Trump was his talking about grabbing some pussy - please this is not even in the range of bad that she is or the allegations against her are. I feel sorry for those who think it is and that think he is against women when he clearly is in awe of his daughter you will notice not one of his sons. How contradicting is that?

Next what exactly is the hacking that they are saying the Russians did to sway the election? Be specific if you can clearly clarify this. They did not go into the votes and change them which by the way she won the popular vote ONLY  because of California and New York. If you took those two states votes out of the equation then she lost every where else by a landslide. And that is why the system is set up the way it is - so two states do not control the election process.

Now lets talk about Melania - I do not vote for the President because of his wife and what she will or will not bring to the Whitehouse. What exactly did Michelle bring to us all ? Tell me please of some thing she did other than look good and give some great speeches ? Did she do some miraculous work changing something that actually changed the lives of the average of below average person on a National level? I know the work Hillary did when she came up with the village theory has created a generation of entitled violent young people that do not seem to have respect for anything other than the right to be allowed to behave that way. Absolutely no respect for the laws - and by this I want to highlight the immigration problem that we have. I live in Arizona and this is a huge problem here and I am a native but my rights are often reduced to less than when it comes to me or an illegal citizen. My father and his parents were not citizens but they did what was required to become citizens here and I think that is what the law states so all should do it not be given special treatment or excused.

Now about Hillary and her movement for women - she has made it even harder for women in my opinion because she is so corrupt. Why is it that other female politicians do not have the scandal and lies around them that she does such as Elizabeth Warren, Carly Fiorina, even Sarah Palin and or Geraldine Anne Ferraro. Hillary lost because she is not a trustworthy candidate and most are sick of the same old same - which is not fair for the majority. 

[Broderbits]

6 minutes ago, ArizonaGrown said:

I know the work Hillary did when she came up with the village theory has created a generation of entitled violent young people that do not seem to have respect for anything other than the right to be allowed to behave that way.

The idea that "it takes a village" was around long before Hillary Clinton even thought of having children; it's an old folk proverb. And I'm pretty sure that she herself was not responsible for how a whole generation raised their children. Add to that the fact that within said generation exist many different styles of parenting and levels of competence doing so, and it's simply not possible to blame one person (whether it's HRC or Dr. Spock) for how the kids turn out. 

As for your list of scandal-free female politicians: seriously, Palin? Seriously? 

[ArizonaGrown]

Okay so Palin is weak but the rest stand .

Oh yea and what about Bill Clintons meeting with Loretta Lynch? Add that to my list. 

[Broderbits]

Personally, I don't think of Fiorina as any paragon of virtue either. 

59 minutes ago, ArizonaGrown said:

Now about Hillary and her movement for women

The women's movement has been around a long time too (and not just in this country), what with the small matter of fighting for the right to vote and all. 

 

1 hour ago, ArizonaGrown said:

The worst thing that was found on Trump was his talking about grabbing some pussy

No tax returns, too many blatant lies to list, getting Putin to do his dirty work, nothing to back up his "make America great again" rhetoric, cabinet full of rich cronies with agendas mainly focusing on increasing their bank accounts, numerous conflicts of interest with personal businesses, nepotism up the yin-yang, making a profit off NYC paying for security @ trump tower, no intention of fulfilling campaign promises (the Wall), no intention of doing the daily work of a president, Russia Russia Russia.......my fingers are tired and the list goes on.

Each of us is free to believe what we want. I know what I believe and much of it conflicts with your insights. All I can do is wish you Peace.

[Menrva]

Quote

The worst thing that was found on Trump was his talking about grabbing some pussy

And that's pretty awful, IMO. The fact that it doesn't seem to bother people is yet another example of how women are systematically mistreated and degraded, over and over and over, until no one fucking cares anymore. "Get over it." "You're too sensitive." "You're such a crybaby - why don't you go to your safe place?" "It's just locker room talk. Boys will be boys." I had so many people do this to me when I was finally brave enough to speak up about my own assault and it just fills me with rage.

No - boys should be raised to be decent human beings who respect other people and their personal boundaries. Just like everybody else. And I have no doubt there are many parents doing just that. But we need to call others out when line are crossed and not let it slide because it's uncomfortable and we don't want to make a scene.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Menrva
Fixed quote because Broderbits did not post the quote above! Sorry, Broderbits!

[KIMBERLYANN11]

46 minutes ago, Menrva said:

And that's pretty awful, IMO. The fact that it doesn't seem to bother people is yet another example of how women are systematically mistreated and degraded, over and over and over, until no one fucking cares anymore. "Get over it." "You're too sensitive." "You're such a crybaby - why don't you go to your safe place?" "It's just locker room talk. Boys will be boys." I had so many people do this to me when I was finally brave enough to speak up about my own assault and it just fills me with rage.

No - boys should be raised to be decent human beings who respect other people and their personal boundaries. Just like everybody else. And I have no doubt there are many parents doing just that. But we need to call others out when line are crossed and not let it slide because it's uncomfortable and we don't want to make a scene.

That was horrible.  When some of his victims came out to share their stories, the (male) cow-orkers at my place of business were all like "oh, so they just forgot about it until now".   I was so enraged - but my office is a nepotistic political minefield so you have to keep your mouth shut and your head down.  You never ... fucking ... forget about it.

The scariest things about him (for me) during the election were the nazis, klansmen and the death threats to reporters.  That's not the kind of country I want to live in - and voila -hate crimes are now up 200% from this time last year.  That's three times as many. I am amazed at the number of people who weren't aware of the klan and neo-nazi ties prior to the election. I am a minority and I think I'm next in line after the muslims and mexicans.

[Pixel]

It never ceases to amaze me how people who can list all of the fake news about Hillary never mention the fraud Trump has committed and the lies that spew from him like diarrhea. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, ArizonaGrown said:

Next what exactly is the hacking that they are saying the Russians did to sway the election? Be specific if you can clearly clarify this. They

They're saying they hacked and released emails to bring negative press and encourage the impression that  Hillary was doing something shady regardless of what the emails actually showed going on. In order to help put Trump in the White House. That's a serious thing even if it didn't decide the election.  Although it certainly may have, given the attention to emails in general.

Quote

It never ceases to amaze me how people who can list all of the fake news about Hillary never mention the fraud Trump has committed and the lies that spew from him like diarrhea. 

IKR? I get that someone can genuinely dislike her, or distrust her, especially after decades of just this kind of shade. But a vote for Trump is a vote for corruption. He and his spokespeople are on TV making justifications like "It's not illegal if the president does it" and "It's not corruption if we do it really blatantly." If I'd voted for Trump because Hillary was corrupt I'd be regretting my vote now. If I was honest about what I said. I wouldn't be defending Russian interference because it gave DT a chance to be corrupt for Russia' benefit as well as his own. And I'd be even more horrified than I am now at every new bit of cronyism and conflict of interest and treason and hostility to the US and its institutions. Not to mention the disregard for security. Because I would have accidentally voted for them. If I wasn't bothered by it how could I say I was anti corruption?

[backgroundnoise]

3 hours ago, ArizonaGrown said:

What exactly did Michelle bring to us all ? Tell me please of some thing she did other than look good and give some great speeches ? Did she do some miraculous work changing something that actually changed the lives of the average of below average person on a National level?

I think that improving the lives of lower-income children through better nutrition deserves your respect.

Please name me ONE thing Mr. Trump has ever done to benefit anyone other than himself.

Frankly, your list of Hillary Clinton's sins is the same old retreads for which there has never been any proof--only accusations.  Bengazi?  She's been cleared of any wrong doing, for what, the 10th time on that. 

The fact that her campaign manager's and friend's emails were hacked and pawed through by people desperately trying to find something to hang on her, and so little of consequence was found, shows her integrity, big time, to me.  I DARE any other politician to provide a year's worth of emails for similar perusal.

IMO, Donald Trump tried his best to undermine our country's greatest institutions--the things that have always set us apart 240 years ago:  our free press and trust in our elections.  He shamelessly tried to get people in this country to doubt both for his own aggrandizement.  That is appalling.  That is shameful.  That is sedition.  I cannot respect your vote.  JMO.

[callmebetty]

Michelle Obama worked on getting kids moving and healthier eating: Let's Move. Taking on childhood obesity and making sure future health problems don't put a strain on the health system or personal finances. She even tried to get the daily amount of sugar listed on food labels, but even she couldn't get that , but did get with the FDA have more listing of nutritional labels.

Of course all of this is preaching to the choir and I've only wasted my time and energy. 

Hmm you can like Bill Clinton but not Hillary. You can name her blaming Bill's rape victims but not the man who did the alleged raping? Hmm if it walks like duck sounds like a duck it must be misogyny. 

Oh and I remiss not to mention the selling uranium to Putin. We'll all be wishing that's the only involvement we have with him when he's cozy in our backyard. 

[slf]

5 hours ago, ArizonaGrown said:

Hillary has a long list of major things that she was involved with that make her look like a sneaky liar and that I can not get over. I happened to love Bill Clinton and really had expected to do the same with her but no I did not as she failed to make me feel like he did- EVER. So here is my list of reasons why I think she is shown to be a liar beyond belief and should not be trusted - Benghazi, Clinton Foundation money laundering and pay-for-play, private server, deleting emails while under investigation, Vince Foster, rigging the election against Bernie Sanders, Whitewater, blaming Bill's rape victims, her friend and mentor was a KKK leader, clinton body count, cattle futures, landing under "sniper fire" lie, stealing from the white house, her cocaine abuse as stated by Paula Jones, laughing and defending a child rapist, Chinagate,Travelgate, IRS gastapo scandal, Norman HSU scandal, Jorge Cabrera scandal, Pardongate. Her cashing in on Iranian fundraising, ripping off Haiti during the earthquake, selling 20% of U.S. Uranium to Putin after Bill's $500k "speech" with Russian bankers.

So I'm not familiar with some of this, such as the the cattle futures, but I wanted to address some of the other things that bother you about her (but not all of them right in one response because it's a lot lol).

May I ask what specifically about Benghazi you hold HRC accountable for? She's been investigated for this and cleared. The GOP has tried their damndest to find something she did wrong and came up empty-handed every time.

I've never understood the problem with her having a private server. It's not what some might prefer but it's actually commonly done; as in it's pretty well-known many politicians have a private server (and look at how many are prosecuted for it). And I just want to bring this up because this never fails to amuse me: she wasn't hacked. Literally almost everyone else was but not HRC and her private server. Back to the topic, even Comey said she did nothing wrong, did not lie, did nothing illegal, and no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case. And I think we can all agree Comey is no friend of HRC.

Deleting emails are also common, sometimes for the very simple reason of: the Podesta emails. "They wanted pizza" became "PIZZA IS CODE FOR CHILD RAPE" became "let's get a gun and go to the secret pedophile palace masquerading as a pizza parlor and threaten people's lives over a Reddit conspiracy theory". Mike Pence is trying to bury his emails. He's embraced by the very Republicans that tried to roast HRC. I recall there was an issue with the Bush administration, private servers, and over 20 million 'lost' emails. Literally no one on the right cares.

The election was not rigged against Bernie Sanders, though. In fact quite the opposite: Sanders exploited the Democratic party and attempted to steal the party nomination. Why do you feel it was rigged?

Whitewater was another conspiracy; HRC was investigated for seven years and cleared. And it's not like the investigations were spearheaded by sympathizers. As with pretty much every investigation of HRC, it was done by Republicans who really, really did not like her. Most of them were given broad authority and used it and came up with nothing.

Vince Foster's suicide being linked to HRC is a conspiracy theory that didn't even gain traction inside the GOP which has never failed to chase even the tiniest breadcrumb they thought might finally bring HRC down. This article really explores Foster's time in the White House and his depression, with most information coming from Fiske's (a Republican) investigation.

HRC's friend and mentor, Robert Byrd, was a former KKK member who spent much of his political career trying to make amends for his terrible past and help those he once sought to oppress. He struggled with his own past - he wasn't perfect, he had a mentality he found difficult to examine and change - but had a better track record when it came to promoting equality than almost all of his colleagues that had never been associated with the KKK. The NAACP gave him a 100% rating. I've actually never understood people holding this against her. If someone realizes they've been hateful and bigoted, tries to change, spends much of their life doing what they can to help others...are we really supposed to shun them? HRC is a sneaky liar because she, a white woman, did not shun Byrd for his past when esteemed black organizations refused to do so? A lot of people say "oh if you say or do one thing wrong SJWs attack you, PC run amok!" But Byrd is proof that isn't true. Of course, Byrd was respected by organizations like the NAACP because his bar for 'not being racist' was not the super low standard of not having being a member of the KKK, it was devoting his life to the long hard work of dismantling systems of oppression. Byrd learned that in a racist society not being hateful and violent isn't enough; you actually have to help others, that it's the responsibility of white people to tear down the systems they benefit from and use to harm others.

The Clinton body count conspiracy theory has been pretty thoroughly debunked. (One of my favorite things about the ever-changing lists is that they sometimes include people who either aren't actually dead, lol, or people who never even existed.) The GOP hasn't launched over half a dozen federal investigations and come up empty despite HRC supposedly having people assassinated left right and center. I do enjoy how, meanwhile, Republican Joe Scarborough is as innocent as lamb. I mean, there was an actual deal body in his office. (To clarify, I've seen nothing to suggest that Scarborough killed her I just think the double standard is interesting. Imagine what the GOP would do if a dead body was found in HRC's office.)

The "HRC stole hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of furniture and artwork from the White House" conspiracy theory has also been thoroughly debunked. There are rules regarding what gifts you can and cannot keep, essentially what is actually given to you and what is given to the US.

And last, for now, is the really awful lie that HRC is a defender of rapists and a mocker of victims. HRC was a public defender, legally obligated to defend her client. What many critics don't bring up is that she requested to be taken off the case. HRC did not want to defend a man she knew to be a rapist. But sadly, that's a common tactic of men accused of rape: hire a female lawyer. "See, I'm not a misogynist, I'm putting my life in the hands of a woman!" That's exactly what HRC's client did: he specifically requested a female lawyer. Plenty of female public defenders have had to represent rapists or child molesters. As Politifact notes, she never laughed at the victim. That is a lie.

I do want to say that when it comes to Bill's victims...I'm not sure what the argument is. Because they made the accusation they should be believed or at least given the benefit of the doubt? I actually support that. But then, what about Trump's accusers? Especially given his own on-camera admissions that he has sexually assaulted women repeatedly over the course of decades, and his admission that he has previously exploited his status to gain access to the dressing area of a teen beauty pageant where the girls were undressed so he could ogle them. I mean, one of his accusers said he raped her when she was a child and that he did so at one of Jeffrey Epstein's parties. Epstein is a known pedophile. So...what do we say about Trump, then? This is one of the reasons I consider this a very difficult issue. 

Edited December 17, 2016 by slf