S04.E07: For Better Or Worse

[jmonkey]

On 9/9/2016 at 2:21 PM, Neurochick said:

Maybe that's what he thinks of kids.  Nothing wrong with that; not everybody likes or wants to have kids.

But, as I said, no one knows what these people put on the questionnaires.  I don't know what Derek said about smoking, or what Heather thought of it; I don't know if Nick said he's in love with his dogs, or that Sonia is scared of dogs.  Did Tom say the bus was very important to him?  Did he say he wanted children?  Did Lilly say she wants to have kids now?

I can't really fault the experts unless I know how these people answered the questions.  Sometimes  people lie when they're asked personality questions, because they want to appear cool, with it, and hip. 

This is a good point. I've been extremely critical of the experts in previous posts, but maybe the couples didn't answer the questionnaires or video interview questions honestly in the first place. I really hope that's true and the experts aren't just blatantly mismatching these couples and ignoring dealbreakers for entertainment value and potential ratings.

For Derek and Heather, Heather is so rigid and set in her ways, I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have a definite position on smoking (especially pot as has been speculated on this forum). She seems like such an all or nothing, right or wrong type of person. I'm sure drug use was covered in the questionnaire in addition to cigarette smoking. I guess she did say occasional use was okay during the interview process and perhaps it changed to a dealbreaker when she saw Derek blazing up. It'd be unfair to hold the experts accountable for that unless there was a clear indication that it was a dealbreaker. It would be a dealbreaker for me, so I'd understand if it was for her. Of course I believe their issues run deeper and there's something that happened between them that we're not privy to that is the main reason for Heather's coldness to Derek. I still think they'll stay together for the payday.

For Nick and Sonia, they suck so bad at communicating that it's very possible that Nick didn't say that his wife must like dogs and that Sonia didn't express to the experts that she was deathly afraid of dogs. If that's true, the experts get a pass on that too. However, if they knew this and matched them anyway just to see how uncomfortable Nick's dogs would make Sonia for TV conflict, that's just really cruel.

For Tom and Lillian, I think the experts (or maybe producers) were probably thinking that the bus and Tom's feelings towards having kids would be bigger deals than they actually were. I think Tom will come around on wanting have kids five years down the road in the rare event that he and Lilly are still together. But he's fresh off the bus and he's rightfully scared to not want to have that discussion now. It really is too soon. He was good with Lilly's niece though and that should be enough to appease her and to get him laid after he washes his feet.

Obviously because the information is private, we'll never know how the couples answered their questionnaires or video interview questions, so we can't really say whether the experts made the right matches on paper. It just seems like they did a horrible job to me (in regards to Nick and Sonia and Derek and Heather) and seems like the producers chose these couples to maximize potential conflict to improve ratings. All four seasons of this show have followed a similar formula. There has been one strong couple (Tom and Lilly), one maybe couple (Nick and Sonia), and one trainwreck couple (Derek and Heather). Despite production's perceived insistence that manufactured drama creates ratings, I'd love to see more successes on this show and would love to see a season with three strong couples. I realize that would probably result in low ratings. I think Season 4 needs to produce at least one lasting marriage or else it just makes this social experiment seem completely illegitimate. I don't think it's any accident that Season 1 has two couples still married. That season was the most organic and not contrived. They clearly put more work into the vetting process than they have the last three seasons.

Edited September 12, 2016 by jmonkey

[BunnySlippers]

52 minutes ago, Enero said:

Yep. He looked, but Nick is just a cold fish. He doesn't get animated/passionate about ANYTHING except his dogs. Even when he was talking about how "awesome" the ATV ride was through DR on their honeymoon, he was sooo low key and dry. Compare that to Sonia who was animated, excited and passionate about the experience. He's dull as dish water. Perhaps Sonia should thank her lucky stars that they've not done the do. She'd likely be severely disappointed. With his seemingly lack of relationship experience and passion about anything, he'd probably be horrible in bed. 

Oh, I totally agree. He is definitely a cold fish and Sonia deserves better.

[LazyToaster]

I don't understand why Nick is so insistent not to show any sign of physical intimacy - just baffles my mind.  What exactly does he think Sonia will do?  It is probably good he hasn't taken advantage of the situation and had sex yet if he really isn't into her; however, why wouldn't he at least test the waters a little bit.  Good grief - I'm 66 years old and when I went to the 8th grade dance with a boy he held my hand and even tried to kiss me when his parents weren't looking.  LOL

[qtpye]

Quote

Derek is not a POC "person of color" but his upper arms are a 96 Crayon box set with built in sharpener.

There should be a new term...Person of Every Color...Rainbow Brite oriented melted in the sun on a sidewalk person, to describe Derek

Edited September 11, 2016 by qtpye

[okerry]

20 hours ago, BunnySlippers said:

Actually, my memory is that he did look at her butt when she did that. At least, that's how it seemed to me.

Well, I guess it's a start . . . ;) 

[okerry]

2 hours ago, LazyToaster said:

I don't understand why Nick is so insistent not to show any sign of physical intimacy - just baffles my mind.  What exactly does he think Sonia will do?  

Get waaay too attached to him and be far too hard to get rid of. The fact that they're legally married only makes that worse, not better, because he doesn't have the excuse of "hey, baby, it was just a little fun, we're not married - oh, wait - "

[lh25]

Quote

I think Tom will come around on wanting have kids five years down the road in the rare event that he and Lilly are still together. But he's fresh off the bus and he's rightfully scared to not want to have that discussion now. It really is too soon. 

I disagree, I think talking about whether or not you want kids needs to happen fairly soon in a serious relationship, because it is usually a deal-breaker if you don't agree.  Lily wasn't saying she wanted to get pregnant tomorrow, but she does have  right to know if he thinks someday he wants kids since she does, before she invests more in the relationship.

I know people change their minds about this sometimes, but you have to go with what you know at the time.

[henrysmom]

Quote

I'm sure sales increased as soon as the show started.

So, has anybody bought any of Nick's shirts? Just kind of wondering.

[humbleopinion]

Thinking Nick would retweet any photos of fans wearing his brand in a selfie.....

[Jellybeans]

I would never know he had a "brand" without this forum.  I still can't figure out what his brand is...

[Enero]

There's nothing unique or interesting about his "brand." For this reason, I can't see why anyone would buy his stuff but to each his/her own. 

[Drogo]

No social media mentions in the episode threads... and no social-media thread mentions in the episode threads.

[holly4755]

the talk about children  - I don't think it is terribly important early on because people change their mind, I was married for 25 years, we agreed from the start to not have children, there came a time when I wanted them and my husband was as adamant as at the start, then when I was sick with mono, heading into menopause, my husband stated he wanted children after a year of torturing me with out of the criticisms that were not exactly valid. people change, unless there is a genetic disease or something involved. 

not only does their opinion on certain topics change, but their ass level can grow quite a bit. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by holly4755

[Empress1]

I think counting on someone changing their mind when you're on different sides re: kids is dangerous though, because what if they don't? I have a friend I've known since we were in our mid-teens. She has never, ever, EVER wanted kids and was very clear about that up front. She's married; if her husband is waiting for her to change her mind, he's going to get his feelings very hurt. It's kind of like ignoring the biological clock - yes, women can get pregnant well into their forties (my great grandmother's last child was a "Thought it was menopause? Surprise, you're pregnant!" baby; she was 46 or 47), but planning to do that is unwise because the odds aren't in your favor. My mother has a divorced friend in her early 50s who had a boyfriend 12 years her junior. She has three kids in their late teens and early 20s; her boyfriend had none and had never been married before. He wanted kids. She went to the doctor when she was about 46 and asked what her chances of conceiving were; she was told, basically, "Poor," and they broke up over it.

Lily has lots of time before she has to worry about her fertility, but I do think it's wise for her to make sure she and Tom are on the same page about wanting kids at all. There's no compromising there.

[silverspoons]

I'm sure this no kids is just a storyline or taken out of context. I find it hard to believe a 24 & 28 want marriage so badly to do this experiment yet one has no desire to have kids? Would Tom really want to be married so young if he didn't want a family? It seems like the trend I see if people getting married in their late 20's or 30's because the want kids. Living together is pretty much acceptable (except in certain religious areas) so most people consider marriage when thinking of having a family. I feel like Tom does not want to get Lily's hopes up, because if their marriage does not work out , he does not want her having baby names planned out.

 

I feel bad Sonia and the dogs. I have major issues with dogs. Not only did my mom show more love to her dog then myself, I was attacked at a dog show when I was 6. If someone walks by me with a dog on a leash , I smile and hurry by  but if a dog is off a leash I run. I was walking my kids to school a few years ago and a large dog (German Shepard)  was loose and I jumped onto my neighbor's car hood. She came out a drove me home, a whole 5 houses. We have lizards and scorpins in our yard and they don't phase me but dogs do. You can see Sonia is nervous around those dogs. It is not only the uneasiness around the dogs but I feel for her when she is wanting Nick to show her attention and he is kissing the dogs and not her. Maybe Nick doesn't realize how much affection he is showing the dogs? I play back home movies and my mom said she never realized how much she was into her dog and ignoring the rest of us.

I wish Nick and Sonia could get some real counseling , not this pastor or Dr. Pepper. It seems like if someone could get them to talk , they would know if they had a real shot or not.

[announcergirl]

Maybe I'm just an asshole but I only watch to see if somebody's gonna do it. ?

[cardigirl]

I don't think it was too early to bring up kids.  She's not asking him to start the family tomorrow.  A conversation with your spouse about their thoughts on children is not out of line.  Sure they just met, but they aren't dating, they are MARRIED, as the experts keep telling us.  I usually like Dr. Pepper's interactions with the couples, but I thought it was contradictory in the very least to counsel Lily to back off of the kid issue.  They have six weeks to decide if they want to continue on or not.  Having children or not having children is HUGE no matter which way a person decides, so Lily had the right to wonder if he even likes kids.  

I think the emphasis on this was producer-driven, but still think the question was a fair one from Lily.  Tom getting all upset about having only known her for two weeks before she wants a conversation about this is bullhockey, in my opinion.

[Stillhoping]

Tom has said he is open to kids...I think he just shut down cause it is only two weeks...maybe afraid encouragement would mean Lilly would toss her birth control haha.

I think Tom comes across very sincere and I really hope he and Lilly make it.

Nick..yikes! Either he is just not into Sonia or he really is batting for the other team. It is interesting that he has not talked about previous relationships. 

[WichitaStateShock]

Finally was able to watch this episode. 

Tom will be good with kids. He is starting to win me over.

Still think Nick is stuck in shy guy mode. My husband didn't start to open up until like a year in. I do think he likes her as evident by the 8 out of 10 marriage score but he is a little stupid and naive about relationships.

 

Heather and Derek: well that was pointless to have them on this episode.

[humbleopinion]

Drawn out and pointless never stopped M@FS producers from beating a dead horse week after week...

[Passthepopcorn]

Wanting kids or not has to be among the top 5 deal breakers when deciding to get married (or staying married in this case), if not number 1. It wouldn't be fair for either one if they are on opposite pages.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Passthepopcorn

[Nowhere]

I HATED how Pepper told Lily that she's moving too fast for Tom. I knew my boyfriend saw children in his future within the first couple of weeks of knowing him and it wasn't because we were planning a marriage. It's because people with any depth think about the future and don't mind talking about it. I didn't think he was talking about having kids with ME but I knew that he expected children with somebody in his future. It's not moving too fast to talk about where you see yourself in 5 years or however many years. I've asked my female friends if they want kids and it's not because I wanted to knock one up so I couldn't imagine going into a marriage without knowing the answers to these basic questions. I don't know why Tom won't just say he expects to have a kid in two years or five years, now, never, whatever. Doesn't matter. Just answer the damn question. If he doesn't know the answer at his age then he's a flake. Deal breaker. He can't expect her to stay with him without knowing this. 

This show is making it so obvious that it's a joke. These are basic marriage questions that either aren't being answered or are being ignored. Afraid of dogs with a dog lover. Wants kids with someone who's afraid of talking about kids. Like really?? Give me this "expert" job. 

[TheBride]

Wanting kids or not has to be among the top 5 deal breakers when deciding to get married (or staying married in this case), if not number 1. It wouldn't be fair for either one if they are on opposite pages.

I think the issue of having children is something that they can't take too seriously at first. Think of having this discussion with a man after knowing him for 3 weeks. Eeeeek! You'd see him running away, very fast. It certainly is an important issue, but it's too fast for Tom.

[TheBride]

I'm sure this no kids is just a storyline or taken out of context. I find it hard to believe a 24 & 28 want marriage so badly to do this experiment yet one has no desire to have kids? Would Tom really want to be married so young if he didn't want a family? It seems like the trend I see if people getting married in their late 20's or 30's because the want kids. Living together is pretty much acceptable (except in certain religious areas) so most people consider marriage when thinking of having a family. I feel like Tom does not want to get Lily's hopes up, because if their marriage does not work out , he does not want her having baby names planned out.

 

I feel bad Sonia and the dogs. I have major issues with dogs. Not only did my mom show more love to her dog then myself, I was attacked at a dog show when I was 6. If someone walks by me with a dog on a leash , I smile and hurry by  but if a dog is off a leash I run. I was walking my kids to school a few years ago and a large dog (German Shepard)  was loose and I jumped onto my neighbor's car hood. She came out a drove me home, a whole 5 houses. We have lizards and scorpins in our yard and they don't phase me but dogs do. You can see Sonia is nervous around those dogs. It is not only the uneasiness around the dogs but I feel for her when she is wanting Nick to show her attention and he is kissing the dogs and not her. Maybe Nick doesn't realize how much affection he is showing the dogs? I play back home movies and my mom said she never realized how much she was into her dog and ignoring the rest of us.

I wish Nick and Sonia could get some real counseling , not this pastor or Dr. Pepper. It seems like if someone could get them to talk , they would know if they had a real shot or not.

Am I the only one who thinks Nick is gay? No problem with it, but it would surely impact this marriage!

[Evil Queen]

4 hours ago, TheBride said:

Am I the only one who thinks Nick is gay? No problem with it, but it would surely impact this marriage!

No you are not the only one. I figured whatever has gone on between them wasn't much of anything either and was done in a drunken state where he figured he'd just see how it was or whatever reason he had in his head in that moment(s). 

While it wouldn't be an issue if he was, expect for the fact that if it ever came out that he is than he was a fraud when it comes to this show. IMO he shouldn't have been picked to begin with. Guy can't do anything unless he is drunk it seems like. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Evil Queen

[gonecrackers]

10 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

While it wouldn't be an issue if he was, expect for the fact that if it ever came out that he is than he was a fraud when it comes to this show.

Well that's what I keep wondering... why would anyone willingly do a show like this if they were gay or had an odd fetish that someone wouldn't want anything to do with - I mean, eventually they're gonna know, so why would they bother? Unless, there's an agreement of some kind between them & even the show.

[lh25]

15 hours ago, TheBride said:

I think the issue of having children is something that they can't take too seriously at first. Think of having this discussion with a man after knowing him for 3 weeks. Eeeeek! You'd see him running away, very fast. It certainly is an important issue, but it's too fast for Tom.

Normally I'd agree with you, but this isn't a normal situation.  If they are at all serious about being married long-term, they need to talk about this.  Actually, this had to have shown up somewhere in the pre-show screening, one would hope at least1

[Passthepopcorn]

16 hours ago, TheBride said:

I think the issue of having children is something that they can't take too seriously at first. Think of having this discussion with a man after knowing him for 3 weeks. Eeeeek! You'd see him running away, very fast. It certainly is an important issue, but it's too fast for Tom.

I'm talking about marriage, not dating. If they were just dating, I get it. But this is it. It is not your usual situation here.

[Evil Queen]

19 hours ago, TheBride said:

I think the issue of having children is something that they can't take too seriously at first. Think of having this discussion with a man after knowing him for 3 weeks. Eeeeek! You'd see him running away, very fast. It certainly is an important issue, but it's too fast for Tom.

Going back to this...why is it to fast for Tom? Lily is the one that seems to want to wait longer to have kids from what they have said. As others have pointed out, this isn't the typical relationship where that kind of discussion can wait. They got married at first sight and have no clue how each other feels on that topic so its important to discuss now rather than later down the line since it could be a major deal breaker if they are not on the same page. Honestly even if it was a dating scene, I can imagine both men and women might want to weed out those that might not be on the same page about things like this if they are looking for a serious relationship instead of wasting time on someone that might be opposite of how they feel on certain issues. Just because its talked about doesn't mean someone is saying they want those babies right then and there either.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Evil Queen

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, Passthepopcorn said:

I'm talking about marriage, not dating. If they were just dating, I get it. But this is it. It is not your usual situation here.

Not to mention they have six weeks to decide to stay married or not, so they need to have a lot of conversations people wouldn't normally have in the first few weeks of dating.

[TheBride]

I think Sonja is kind of mouse-like, but she's sweet. She just wants a normal relationship and he's content to have a convenience marriage, it seems to me. He's looking for a pal to cook with! It won't last....why would she short-change herself like that?

[brilliantbreakfast]

On 9/12/2016 at 5:52 PM, Empress1 said:

I think counting on someone changing their mind when you're on different sides re: kids is dangerous though, because what if they don't? I have a friend I've known since we were in our mid-teens. She has never, ever, EVER wanted kids and was very clear about that up front. She's married; if her husband is waiting for her to change her mind, he's going to get his feelings very hurt. It's kind of like ignoring the biological clock - yes, women can get pregnant well into their forties (my great grandmother's last child was a "Thought it was menopause? Surprise, you're pregnant!" baby; she was 46 or 47), but planning to do that is unwise because the odds aren't in your favor. My mother has a divorced friend in her early 50s who had a boyfriend 12 years her junior. She has three kids in their late teens and early 20s; her boyfriend had none and had never been married before. He wanted kids. She went to the doctor when she was about 46 and asked what her chances of conceiving were; she was told, basically, "Poor," and they broke up over it.

Lily has lots of time before she has to worry about her fertility, but I do think it's wise for her to make sure she and Tom are on the same page about wanting kids at all. There's no compromising there.

I never wanted kids and neither did my husband.  He once said that if I changed my mind, he'd live up to his financial obligations but he did not want to raise a child.  To me, especially if you are a woman, thinking a man will change his mind is a fool's game.  If you are a man and you want kids, choose a woman who also does.  I cannot tell you how many women I know who married men who didn't want children, had a baby anyway (usually their mothers tell them to do it and the mother says "Once he sees the baby he'll love it".  All of these women ended up divorced.  Lilly should only be talking about kids in the abstract:  "I am going to want children; I don't see marriage without children."  And Tom is either on board with "sometime" or he's not.  This is something you should decide BEFORE you marry.  I'd known since I was a child that I didn't want children.  When I was young and it wasn't an issue I assumed eventually I would, but once I got married, I never looked back.

Oh, and PS -- I am now a 60+ widow and I am financially secure because of that decision.

[brilliantbreakfast]

On 9/9/2016 at 0:25 PM, qtpye said:

Also, people did not expect as much from a marriage as they do now.  Modern people want their partner to "complete" them in a manner that set ups some very high expectations.

The other common thread with EVERYONE who has been on this show is that they have all been about "What I'm looking for", "I want someone to love me" and "What I want my spouse to do/be for ME."  No one is about "I want to share the joys of life with someone" or "I want someone I can love".  Assuming Lilly and Tom make it, it's because at least one of them (Lilly) is about wanting to do things to make Tom happy.  Cortney did the same thing with navigating Jason through his mother's death and reconciliation with his half-siblings.  Doug appears to now want to make Jamie happy by giving her a baby.  But when it's about me, me, me, what I want, well, of course it's not going to work.

[TheBride]

22 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

No you are not the only one. I figured whatever has gone on between them wasn't much of anything either and was done in a drunken state where he figured he'd just see how it was or whatever reason he had in his head in that moment(s). 

While it wouldn't be an issue if he was, expect for the fact that if it ever came out that he is than he was a fraud when it comes to this show. IMO he shouldn't have been picked to begin with. Guy can't do anything unless he is drunk it seems like. 

How on earth could the relationship specialists not suspect this? It's pretty clear, really.