Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[abseedee]

Aloha All!

Geez, I haven't been here for a while and had to figure out what my password was.  Finally remembered.  Anyway, I read somewhere that Dan and Deena honeymooned in Hawaii so went looking for the parts of the island they visited and I found this too.  I hope it's okay to post it.  Mods delete if it's not okay.

Edited November 23, 2016 by abseedee
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[luvbadtv]

31 minutes ago, abseedee said:

Aloha All!

Geez, I haven't been here for a while and had to figure out what my password was.  Finally remembered.  Anyway, I read somewhere that Dan and Deena honeymooned in Hawaii so went looking for the parts of the island they visited and I found this too.  I hope it's okay to post it.  Mods delete if it's not okay.

Jill has some giant feet!

[BitterApple]

Oh my Lord, the footwear. 

Jill actually has a nice figure when she's not hiding it behind shapeless, dumpy clothes.

[kokapetl]

19 hours ago, awaken said:

Why?!  Really, why post your messy couch and a toddler eating on the run and hashtag grilled cheese.  

Because it's awwwww

[abseedee]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

Oh my Lord, the footwear. 

Jill actually has a nice figure when she's not hiding it behind shapeless, dumpy clothes.

She actually does.  I was surprised she was showing legs and knees and no slip showing.  Ha!

[sometimesy]

1 hour ago, luvbadtv said:

Jill has some giant feet!

Flippers.

[yogi2014L]

44 minutes ago, luvbadtv said:

Jill has some giant feet!

She must have not gotten the silver shoe memo?

And her flats in my opinion are not the worst of the bunch. Woman with the thong target sandals....so not wedding appropriate imo.

As a fellow big footed woman ( well, size 9) nude flats are the worst shoe for that. She should have matched the other girl who wore flats. I don't love flats in wedding parties with short dresses but I get not all women can wear heels.

[Barb23]

1 hour ago, yogi2014L said:

She must have not gotten the silver shoe memo?

And her flats in my opinion are not the worst of the bunch. Woman with the thong target sandals....so not wedding appropriate imo.

As a fellow big footed woman ( well, size 9) nude flats are the worst shoe for that. She should have matched the other girl who wore flats. I don't love flats in wedding parties with short dresses but I get not all women can wear heels.

Another large footed gal here & I agree with you.   I think Jill's shoes are more pointy-toed making them look longer.  I agree about the thong type sandal too.  Definitely not the place for them. It wasn't even a summer wedding, we're talking November.  Deena stands out with her orangey tan. 

[BunnyBlueBrown]

2 hours ago, yogi2014L said:

She must have not gotten the silver shoe memo?

 

With a wedding with those tacky fashion I doubt she set a shoe standard 

[kokapetl]

I thought she wore giant, ill fitting heels to this wedding? 

[Sew Sumi]

Those were Cathy's legs. 

[kokapetl]

18 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Those were Cathy's legs. 

Oh. 

They should've let Jeremy plan this wedding. 

[poopchute]

Wait I thought showing your knees was as inappropriate as showing your labia.  Why are her knees exposed?

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, poopchute said:

Wait I thought showing your knees was as inappropriate as showing your labia.  Why are her knees exposed?

Because even though she's a Duggar she was polite enough not to insist on wearing a longer dress that would have looked out of place with the others?

I think that, for a Duggar, that's admirable.

[Barb23]

I just noticed that Jill's dress is shorter than the heavier gal next to Deena & the other gal wearing flats. I guess because the dresses are one length & the 2 gals are shorter & Jill is taller.

Wonder how long it took to get Jill's mop conditioned,  puffed & curled? That was definitely a challenge for some poor hair stylist who must have picked the short straw. 

[riverblue22]

That has got to be the shortest dress Jill has ever worn in her entire life, at least without leggings underneath it.

[Sew Sumi]

I bet Jill ripped off that hussy wear the second that pictures were done and wore her usual frumpery to the reception.

[Christina87]

Nitpicky...do you think Jill is sort of facing the back so we technically can't see her knees?

[Almost 3000]

8 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

Nitpicky...do you think Jill is sort of facing the back so we technically can't see her knees?

I thought of that but also noticed the girl on the opposite end was angled the same so the photographer may have asked them to stand that way so the picture was in balance.

[lookeyloo]

Maybe she cleared the knee situation with her headship and he is fine with it. 

[Sew Sumi]

I can only imagine her reaction when she first tried on her dress. She may well have gone into a shower rack meltdown at first. 

[poopchute]

15 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Because even though she's a Duggar she was polite enough not to insist on wearing a longer dress that would have looked out of place with the others?

I think that, for a Duggar, that's admirable.

Oh okay.  I guess I thought it was something they felt very strongly about.  I would decline to be in a wedding if I had to wear something that exposed what I felt to be the equivalent of a labia or a nipple or a butthole.

[kokapetl]

Fresh photo

[Sew Sumi]

The DFO pics are from Monday when the boy's guardianship became legal (and they can how include him in pictures). Jill wore that hideous get-up to the Dixie Stampede: IG pics with Famy/Drunkard Dill posted that day.  Also, Smuganna are now in Florida. TFDW posted a video from Thanksgiving at the Kellers' and they're in it. 

[Barb23]

6 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Fresh photo

I know I've seen that patriotic red, white & blue plaid shirt  on Smugs before. (Corner of photo.)  Embarrassing to admit.  I know the Smugs are in Florida visiting Anna's family for Thanksgiving, but maybe they left him behind.  Or the shirt got passed on. 

I am at a loss for words regarding Jill's outfit.  I recognized it too from their outing to Dixie Stampede.

[WhineandCheez]

Derek looks like Jesus there.  Is this intentional? I don't think Jesus, however, weighed 99 pounds though, with all that access to loaves and fishes.  I can't even form these words in my mind, but is Jill wearing a FLEECE skirt???

[SongbirdHollow]

15 minutes ago, WhineandCheez said:

Derek looks like Jesus there.  Is this intentional? I don't think Jesus, however, weighed 99 pounds though, with all that access to loaves and fishes.  I can't even form these words in my mind, but is Jill wearing a FLEECE skirt???

Yes, this photo brings to mind the renditions of Jesus surrounded by little children looking at him adoringly.

[Churchhoney]

10 hours ago, poopchute said:

Oh okay.  I guess I thought it was something they felt very strongly about.  I would decline to be in a wedding if I had to wear something that exposed what I felt to be the equivalent of a labia or a nipple or a butthole.

Well, but we're not talking about the Duggars altogether, though. We're talking about one Duggar in particular, of the younger generation. I know that nobody believes that Duggars can change or, if they do, many people seem to believe that if change comes, it would come all at once, with one of the kids suddenly leaping out of Duggardom, moving away from home, dropping all the family beliefs and becoming a liberal Democrat and a none.

But to me the only realistic route to change for any of them is a very very tiny-step version of change, where somebody almost unconsciously edges away from the "family" beliefs and into some different beliefs of her own.

That being the case, I think it's possible -- not a sure thing, but possible -- that Jill may have dropped the ironclad Duggar belief of "don't ever show your knees" in favor of a new personal principle of "don't show your knees unless not showing them would be rude and unkind to somebody you don't want to be rude and unkind to." In this case, it would have messed up the wedding look -- for Jill's husband's only brother and sister-in-law -- if Jill had insisted on wearing a knee-covering dress. And it would have been quite rude and damaging to the Dillard family's harmony for her to refuse to be in the wedding party of her husband's only brother. So maybe she now has a slightly different principle when it comes to baring knees. Not "don't bare your knees" but "knee baring sometimes is less important than other things."

If that's her new principle (conscious or unconscious), I don't expect her to start showing her knees on her own. I don't expect her to remain in wedding parties that require the showing of "buttholes." And I don't expect other Duggars to have adopted the "the knee showing ban is lifted if a more important principle conflicts with it." And I don't expect Jill to necessarily keep moving in this more liberal direction.

All I think is that maybe Jill has discovered and mildly embraced the idea that not all Duggar principles are an all-or-nothing be-all and end-all in comparison with all other things in the universe. That some, in fact, may be slightly less important and have to be waived if they're in conflict with another principle.

Personally, I think it would be good news if a Duggarling went even that far, and even if the Duggarling went that far without actually knowing at this point that she has changed her view a bit. I realize that others, such as you, apparently see it as just a new example of a Duggar being a big rotten hypocrite as well as a nutty prude that Duggar ideology exalts. But for the moment, I lean toward the more optimistic interpretation.

[kokapetl]

But it's a world where everyone else is showing their "butthole". The brothers wear "butthole" revealing shorts now. Michelle exposed her "butthole" while waterskiing. 

[Minivanessa]

@Churchhoney, it's also possible that Jill's headship thought those bridesmaid dresses were fine, and she should wear it, and she obeyed. Because, it's Jill. Who is so oblivious to so much in life, including how to dress herself.

I don't credit any Duggar with much deep thinking, seeing how they were all reared by dim-witted narcissistic religious fanatics for whom independent-minded, authority-questioning kids would be an unthinkable nightmare.

However, I suspect that the younger Duggar generation has no love for the 90's and early 00's frumpwear which was JB/MEchelle's way of (a) following GotHard's dictates and (b) standing out as that hyooge very speshul modest family. To the extent the Dugg kids marry out of GotHardite circles (Jill and Jinger, for sure, Jessa maybe), I wouldn't be surprised to see their fashion choices move closer to mainstream. Influenced by their respective headships.

As we've discussed here before, there are so many real, workable, and attractive clothing choices for women in the realm of "modesty wear," vs. the fugly, layered, ill-fitting, often home-enhanced butchered ("modesty panels") cr*p the Duggar females have worn for years. Perhaps some of the married Duggar daughters (or their headships) are on the path to discovering more attractive fashion choices.

Of course, there's Jessa, who went totally non-modest about her big pregnant belly, wearing super tight tops that sometimes even clearly showed the outline of her belly button. 

As I've said before, these people are not normal.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Jeeves

[Absolom]

We have seen Duggar daughter knees before.  I can't remember if Jill was one of the daughters with the ever shortening skirts that showed knees especially when sitting.  Based on that I wasn't very surprised that dress was acceptable enough for her to wear.  Her husband, MIL, and now SIL saw nothing wrong with it so maybe she didn't even think twice.

[poopchute]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

I realize that others, such as you, apparently see it as just a new example of a Duggar being a big rotten hypocrite as well as a nutty prude that Duggar ideology exalts. But for the moment, I lean toward the more optimistic interpretation.

I havent the followed the Duggars for as long as some people here have so I really may have been misunderstanding the knee thing.  I was under the impression they would place "knee cap" in the same category as "genitals."  So that's why I was confused and I guess I still am.  If the knees aren't like a testicle or a nipple or a anus or a labia, then what is/was their issue with them and why couldn't they expose them?  Seriously asking.

[Almost 3000]

4 minutes ago, poopchute said:

I havent the followed the Duggars for as long as some people here have so I really may have been misunderstanding the knee thing.  I was under the impression they would place "knee cap" in the same category as "genitals."  So that's why I was confused and I guess I still am.  If the knees aren't like a testicle or a nipple or a anus or a labia, then what is/was their issue with them and why couldn't they expose them?  Seriously asking.

They dress modestly so as not to cause desire in the opposite gender. It seems like knees, shoulders and the clavicle were part of that for awhile but feet were ok. Guess they weren't clued in on the foot fetish of their leader Gothard. Its not that they think knees are like an anus because biblically the anus shouldn't stir up sexual desire but that's a whole other set of beliefs. See, clear as mud.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

@Churchhoney, it's also possible that Jill's headship thought those bridesmaid dresses were fine, and she should wear it, and she obeyed. Because, it's Jill. Who is so oblivious to so much in life, including how to dress herself.

 

True.

We don't know why she did it. And we also don't know whether even the headship's decisions might slowly move Jill in a better direction.

So at this point I'm not going for the "huge hypocrite" label. Obviously, MMV.

[Sew Sumi]

I think that the dresses were purchased with the approval of a few bridesmaids; Deena had eight (?), not everyone can attend the shopping spree. Or maybe Deena just got sizes and ordered online like Jessa and Michael Bates. Point being, it's entirely possible that Jill didn't see her dress until it showed up in the mail and realized that despite her personal convictions, she was going to have to grin and bear it for a few hours for her husband's sake. Like I said before, I bet that she couldn't take that dress off fast enough once her formal obligations were over.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, poopchute said:

I havent the followed the Duggars for as long as some people here have so I really may have been misunderstanding the knee thing.  I was under the impression they would place "knee cap" in the same category as "genitals."  So that's why I was confused and I guess I still am.  If the knees aren't like a testicle or a nipple or a anus or a labia, then what is/was their issue with them and why couldn't they expose them?  Seriously asking.

I'm pretty sure it's more like the Victorian thing where people covered up the legs of chairs and pianos with cloths because they were "legs" and if you saw and thought of "legs" on furniture then you might be tempted to think of legs on humans. And if you thought of legs on humans you might think of body parts that are near legs. And then you're in labia territory. And so on.

It's not putting them in the exact same territory as the labia. It's putting in the "somewhat related so it might possibly tempt you to think about the loosely related thing" category.

Kinda similar to crap Jizm Bob (or somebody) has said about not being happy with the kids watching 100 percent of the episodes of the Andy Griffith show. I'm sure he wouldn't put the Andy Griffith show in exactly same category as The Bachelor or Kinky Boots or Modern Family or whatever.

However, he's spotted the fact that Sheriff Andy tends to work himself out of problems on the show and encourages others to do the same, rather than constantly throwing all problems into the hands of God and praying like crazy and with the belief that prayer will provide the fix. That makes Sheriff Andy's reliance on self-reliance an "ungodly" thought to Ma and Pa Duggs. So they seem to figure that if kids see that ungodly behavior, minor and innocent as it may seem by comparison to many others, it may very likely lead to their thinking about other ungodly things. Such as short skirts and somebody drinking beer at a nearby restaurant table and gender dysphoria and evolution. And, next thing you know, a video of Oh! Calcutta! is on the box.

As I understand it, it's all "slippery slope" arguments -- As in, well, you may think that knees or solving your own problem by not asking God to direct you to the proper toothbrush purchase are no big deal. But they're imperceptibly taking you toward the hellishly ungodly just by the very vague connective tissue that relates them tangentially to the really bad stuff. In my view, people who are terrified of all their own impulses and afraid that neither they nor anybody else has any self control tend to lean very heavily on these slippery-slope arguments to try to banish stuff that's essentially pretty harmless but vaguely reminiscent of things that might not be. Like covering those piano legs.

(For all I know, of course, Jizm Boob Duggar might have such frightening thoughts and impulses in his own personal head that he's damn right to fear all of this stuff. We know for a fact that Bill Gothard does. Still, just because some people actually are sociopaths, that's not really a reason to force others to live under the rules that you might need to keep a sociopath in check.)

Edited November 25, 2016 by Churchhoney

[BunnyBlueBrown]

To me that it is on the bride not Jill. I wouldn't put any of my bridal party in an uncomfortable situation concerning my dress choices after I asked this person to be apart of my day knowing their dress code. If Jill did have an issue or throw a private fit, she would be well within her rights. 

[Sew Sumi]

That's why it's evident that Jill wasn't part of the dress selection process. Deena might not have known about the Duggar below-the-knee "conviction." All skirts? Sure. But not everyone watches the show, and even recent viewers wouldn't know about it. In TLC's attempt to normalize these freaks in Counting On, they don't talk about the extreme legalistic stuff anymore; TLC is doing its  level best to portray them as mainstream.

[BradandJanet]

Those dresses hit the wearers at different places on the leg. Two are below the knee. I wouldn't mind if a bridesmaid lowered the hem a little bit--no random lace or shower curtain fabric addition though. I think the dresses are probably too cheap to alter properly, no usable seam allowance.

As for the shoes, maybe the memo just said metallic. Everyone managed to do that. 

[Sew Sumi]

Oh, it just occurred to me that if Jerick plan to be part of the Honduras missioncation, they will have to leave the States next week. That mission begins on the 3rd. If the Duggar clan does the El Salvador missioncation this year, it's a week later. If Jerick don't leave until then, chances are that they aren't staying, but I guess we won't know for sure until the second missioncation is over around 12/17. 

Who knows? They might not even go back for the missioncations. This will be interesting to see how the Dullards/Duggars play it: out in the open or fudging timelines so as to hide what is really going on? That will say a lot.

[RazzleberryPie]

4 hours ago, poopchute said:

If the knees aren't like a testicle or a nipple or a anus or a labia, then what is/was their issue with them and why couldn't they expose them?  Seriously asking.

Honestly, in my own personal opinion, their issues with being uber modest were 1) Michelle is another one of those women who got fat, felt insecure, and started to piously declare that all decent, Godfearing females  should cover from head to toe, 2) its was easier and cheaper for a 10 year old Jana to sew a loose sack then a fitted dress, 3) those hideous flowered print long sack dresses displayed how flamboyantly modest they are 4) layers and sacks were an attempt to thwart the molesting pervert golden child. 

[queenanne]

I feel like knees = 100% ebil, may not be "a thing" quite so much as the issue of hem riding, plus the fact that they had to make clothes fit everyone via the communal closet.  That is to say, "if it's long enough to cover the knees for Duggar Female Aged Fourteen, we can be sure it will be long enough to hit below the thighs/panty flashing area of Duggar Female Aged Eighteen, when she's sitting."  Granted I've never seen as much as an entire season of the whole show, so I may be spitballing; but I think it's the suggestion of access towards the crotchal area.  Knee-length might equal uh-oh territory when you sit and it might not.

[Sew Sumi]

I'm pretty sure the girls covered clothing regulations in their ghost-written book. Dresses/skirts, at that time, were to always be below the knee. They've relaxed that a bit, since you can now sometimes see knees when they sit.  That just was not DONE I'd say before Jessa got married. I think she was the first to go tighter and a little shorter. Other than that bridesmaid dress, I've NEVER seen Jill go above the knee. Ever. The other three seem to sort of be inching up just a little bit. Let's see what Jinger does now that she has the freedom to do what she wants (I seriously doubt Jeremy cares one way or another). 

As for Jill, we saw those pics from Branson. Not missing a beat, she was right back into her frumpwear.

[GeeGolly]

4 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I'm pretty sure the girls covered clothing regulations in their ghost-written book. Dresses/skirts, at that time, were to always be below the knee. They've relaxed that a bit, since you can now sometimes see knees when they sit.  That just was not DONE I'd say before Jessa got married. I think she was the first to go tighter and a little shorter. Other than that bridesmaid dress, I've NEVER seen Jill go above the knee. Ever. The other three seem to sort of be inching up just a little bit. Let's see what Jinger does now that she has the freedom to do what she wants (I seriously doubt Jeremy cares one way or another). 

As for Jill, we saw those pics from Branson. Not missing a beat, she was right back into her frumpwear.

I agree. I remember Jessa posting a picture of a flat tire after she was married and her knee was front and center. So, so scandalous. As I've said time and time again, they've made it such a point to repeatedly stress to the viewers their feelings and reasons for modesty, that they should at least address their changes in attitude. 

[Malvina]

[lulu69]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree. I remember Jessa posting a picture of a flat tire after she was married and her knee was front and center. So, so scandalous. As I've said time and time again, they've made it such a point to repeatedly stress to the viewers their feelings and reasons for modesty, that they should at least address their changes in attitude.

I think it was more KJB's attitude (and modesty rules). He told the girls what they believe, much like the kids are told they don't like rap music or told they don't want to play organized sports. 

When the headship changes, so do the girls beliefs apparently.

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

 

As for Jill, we saw those pics from Branson. Not missing a beat, she was right back into her frumpwear.

That doesn't necessarily show religious/sex rules attitudes, though. Jessa sees herself as a fashion plate and a sexpot, so her clothes matter to her. Jill pretty clearly couldn't care less. So I wouldn't expect her to rush out and buy a bunch of new skirts. She doesn't seem to be interested in clothes or be looking for an opportunity to flash knee. Jessa's obviously excited about both. I don't think we can tell anything about Jill's attitudes from what she's wearing. Clothes don't matter to her, so she goes on wearing her old stuff. Plus, it's a habit. And since I doubt she cares about it one way or the other, she'll just go on with her old habits. That's what everybody does in areas of life we don't care much about.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, lulu69 said:

I think it was more KJB's attitude (and modesty rules). He told the girls what they believe, much like the kids are told they don't like rap music or told they don't want to play organized sports. 

When the headship changes, so do the girls beliefs apparently.

The thing is, they've all gone around spouting "beliefs" endlessly. But in fact nobody in that family has ever given the slightest thought to their beliefs. They've all just swallowed them from somewhere. JB from Gothard and whatever other gurus he's had through life. M from JB and the kids from both of them. It's all just habit, going along with the crowd, and finally kneejerk reactions. No thought went into getting those beliefs or living out those beliefs. So it seems logical to me that no thought ever goes into moving out of the beliefs. They've been completely conditioned to be utterly lazy-minded, in fact to spurn thinking, and none of them seems very bright. So what they "think" really just means "what are they parroting to go with the flow."

[Barb23]

2 hours ago, Malvina said:

It could be the angle of the photo, but Derick really looks sickly, like major illness sickly.  Look how thin his arms are.  What does he eat - 3 salads a day??  I'm hoping he has seen a doctor to check things out since they've been home. I'm sure Cathy & Dan are concerned. 

[lianau]

3 hours ago, Malvina said:

Somebody needs to feed this guy .