Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[ginger90]

10 pictures:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMxdvuzAun6/?hl=en

[Lady Whistleup]

Fenna found herself a chair. Nice flex Fenna! Don't settle for anything other than the best.

[Quilt Fairy]

I love the loosey-goosey way that puppies can sit

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I think you mean 90 degrees.  45 degrees would make them cockeyed. 🙂

To anyone interested in how the bible has been rewritten over time, I highly recommend Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible And Why by Bart D Ehrman, one of several books he's written on the topic.  

I think my program does it in 45 degree portions.  So you have to keep hitting it to get it where you want to go.  Or maybe I just need to learn things better.  So confusing to my poor mathless brain.

[hathorlive]

The take away from their earth age debate was this:  Jill didn't stare at Derrick lovingly like he was Jesus reincarnate as he spoke.  She was interrupting, throwing her thoughts out, which demonstrates that she isn't a meek helpmeet.  She's arguing, however wrongly, about what she thinks.  She's making herself heard.  She has a voice.   For being raised in a cult where women aren't really supposed to be vocal or disagree with their husbands, I'll take this as progress.  Completely wrong, but maybe over time, she'll research this and grow a bit. 

But Jill, your constant interruptions are 1) rude 2) not allowing for polite debate and 3) making me say words I never want to utter "Just like Derrick talk".  Triple sin, my friend.  

[louannems]

10 hours ago, Heathen said:

I'm pretty sure Derick and Jill had vastly different ideas of what missionary work actually constitutes. 

You mean handing out generic lollypops and finger painting the nails of hungry, shoeless children isn't missionary work?  Oh, and stopping busy people in the streets and bragging about your 19 kids?

[cmr2014]

6 minutes ago, louannems said:

You mean handing out generic lollypops and finger painting the nails of hungry, shoeless children isn't missionary work?  Oh, and stopping busy people in the streets and bragging about your 19 kids?

In all fairness, I think Derick's idea of "missionary work" was hoboing around the world on someone else's dime and occasionally pontificating to strangers about how much better your god is than theirs.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

The take away from their earth age debate was this:  Jill didn't stare at Derrick lovingly like he was Jesus reincarnate as he spoke.  She was interrupting, throwing her thoughts out, which demonstrates that she isn't a meek helpmeet.  She's arguing, however wrongly, about what she thinks.  She's making herself heard.  She has a voice.   For being raised in a cult where women aren't really supposed to be vocal or disagree with their husbands, I'll take this as progress.  Completely wrong, but maybe over time, she'll research this and grow a bit. 

But Jill, your constant interruptions are 1) rude 2) not allowing for polite debate and 3) making me say words I never want to utter "Just like Derrick talk".  Triple sin, my friend.  

She wasn't really discussing it though. She was shutting down conversation by saying she simply believed everything the Bible said and she "doesn't like to talk about it." Derick was trying to explain his more nuanced, reality-based view of the Genesis story and Jill might as well have put her hands over her ears. You got a window into how narrow and rigid her education was.

[SunnyBeBe]

I was aware of the rift, but I didn’t realize they hadn’t been to the big house in years.

https://people.com/tv/jill-duggar-hasnt-been-to-parents-house-in-a-couple-years/

 

 

[DangerousMinds]

11 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

She wasn't really discussing it though. She was shutting down conversation by saying she simply believed everything the Bible said and she "doesn't like to talk about it." Derick was trying to explain his more nuanced, reality-based view of the Genesis story and Jill might as well have put her hands over her ears. You got a window into how narrow and rigid her education was.

Still a massive difference between the “conversations” that Jeremy and Jinger have. He talks, and she’s afraid to say anything he doesn’t agree with.

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, cmr2014 said:

1 hour ago, louannems said:

You mean handing out generic lollypops and finger painting the nails of hungry, shoeless children isn't missionary work?  Oh, and stopping busy people in the streets and bragging about your 19 kids?

In all fairness, I think Derick's idea of "missionary work" was hoboing around the world on someone else's dime and occasionally pontificating to strangers about how much better your god is than theirs.

Don't forget the interpretive dance.

[Lady Whistleup]

I just rewatched the video. Jill says pointedly "Derick leans old earth." By "old earth" I assume she means that Derick thinks the earth is billions of years old. She says it like it's some sort of sin. Later on she says "He's happy to discuss ... I just don't like discussions most of the time." She's gritting her teeth as she says this.

Something tells me Derick will one day "suggest" watching Planet Earth with Jill. He obviously is biting his tongue about this issue.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Lady Whistleup

[madpsych78]

11 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bjncd2zFanv/

While that proves the kids were there, that doesn't mean that Derick approved. He clearly was not in any of these pictures. 

When was the last documentation of Derick at the TTH?

[GeeGolly]

3 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

While that proves the kids were there, that doesn't mean that Derick approved. He clearly was not in any of these pictures. 

When was the last documentation of Derick at the TTH?

I'm not sure when the last time Derick was there, but he was still filming up until and maybe even still shortly after, Sam was born. And I don't know he wasn't there when this picture was taken.

This was in response to a post stating Derick's rift with JB may have began early on when he learned of the molestations. Derick still filmed after he found out. JB and M went to El Salvador after he found out as well. There was no signs of a rift until much later.

Anyway, if Derick felt the TTH was unsafe because of JB and Josh, I'm thinking he would have insisted he children not go there. Izzy looks to be around three, which would be about three years after Derick found out about the molestations, and right around the time he started spouting about TLC. I'm guessing this was one of the last times the Dillards felt welcome at the TTH.

A quick Google search shows Derick with the family as late as November 2017.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb78sZkljGP/

 

 

 

 

[hathorlive]

8 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

She wasn't really discussing it though. She was shutting down conversation by saying she simply believed everything the Bible said and she "doesn't like to talk about it." Derick was trying to explain his more nuanced, reality-based view of the Genesis story and Jill might as well have put her hands over her ears. You got a window into how narrow and rigid her education was.

Absolutely.  This is a classic sign of brainwashing by the Cult.  It jus is, I have no facts, so I'm right.  But have we ever seen any of the other women get that ticked off at their husband based on biblical views?  I was annoyed by her not letting him speak (another sign of Cult behavior) but I am happy she has a voice.  Wrong as it may be.  Derrick has the burden of enlightening her without diminishing her.  And for some one now trained in legal debate, it has to be hard to see that kind of "you can't give me facts that contradict my truth" mentality.  

[MargeGunderson]

8 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Don't forget the interpretive dance.

That haunts me in my dreams.....

[Tikichick]

15 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

Honestly, I think THAT is what the blowup was about. I don't doubt that Derick was disillusioned with JB and the Duggar family; I don't doubt that Derick wanted more money from JB; I think, though, that it was encouraging Jill to question her upbringing that sent JB over the top. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of confrontation where Derick called him a bad parent and then refused to apologize. JB is all about control, and he's not okay with Jill outside his umbrella of authority, and he's not okay with her giving her siblings any ideas that he hasn't vetted first.

Amazing how JB's headship remains intact, no matter how old his children are, how many children they themselves have, his all powerful headship encompasses them all in perpetuity. 

[Lady Whistleup]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

Absolutely.  This is a classic sign of brainwashing by the Cult.  It jus is, I have no facts, so I'm right.  But have we ever seen any of the other women get that ticked off at their husband based on biblical views?  I was annoyed by her not letting him speak (another sign of Cult behavior) but I am happy she has a voice.  Wrong as it may be.  Derrick has the burden of enlightening her without diminishing her.  And for some one now trained in legal debate, it has to be hard to see that kind of "you can't give me facts that contradict my truth" mentality.  

You're right. I'm glad Jill is not cowed by Derick. However it's still depressing that THIS is the hill she's willing to die on. Also, how shrill and flushed and combative she became at the mere suggestion that the young earth creationism theory wasn't correct. At that moment, I felt bad for Derick. 

I think Derick probably low-key believes in evolution too. If he believes in "old earth" then it's likely he knows about the archaebacteria being the first life inhabitants and the fossils and whatnot.

Jill uploaded some videos of Fenna being trained by Derick to roll over. 

[questionfear]

22 hours ago, Zella said:

We'll see how far that takes him in his legal career. 😄 

Based on other conservative legal thinkers, he can replace Alito or Thomas on the Supreme Court with that legalistic attitude. 

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

You're right. I'm glad Jill is not cowed by Derick. However it's still depressing that THIS is the hill she's willing to die on. Also, how shrill and flushed and combative she became at the mere suggestion that the young earth creationism theory wasn't correct. At that moment, I felt bad for Derick. 

I think Derick probably low-key believes in evolution too. If he believes in "old earth" then it's likely he knows about the archaebacteria being the first life inhabitants and the fossils and whatnot.

Jill uploaded some videos of Fenna being trained by Derick to roll over. 

Even in the mundane videos they've shown Jill not being shy to shade Derick, contradict Derick, and even Derick flat out deferring to Jill's having a better understanding of something.   I first noticed it in the video where they all went on an outing to buy Israel's school supplies.   I don't remember anymore what led to this particular point, but Jill kind of poked a little fun at Derick repeating the same explanation about something to Israel and Jill finally told him, kids don't understand that idea.   Jill gave Israel an explanation for whatever it was on his level, he understood what his parents were talking about and Derick straight up said something about Jill understanding kids better.  

That was the same video where I noticed the temperature within their family had dropped to temperate and they all seemed to be enjoying one another.   The kids were interacting with them without desperately trying to get their attention by pestering or some shenanigans and everyone had an easy rapport.   The relaxation and demeanor of the kids was what initially made me sit up and pay attention, because clearly something had changed from the tense, coiled spring atmosphere with Israel in particular trying to get his parents' attention and approval, esp. Derick's.       

[Zella]

I don't know if the Duggars grew up with the influence of Ken Ham, but to him, the whole old earth versus young earth debate is very much the hill he dies on. As he sees it, not accepting a very literal young earth creation erodes the foundation of the Bible's inerrancy. That's why he is so fixated on things like Noah and Creation. I don't know that he has ever said this, but he essentially thinks that if you "compromise" and accept the earth is millions of years old, you are no better than an atheist.

I never gave any of these things much thought myself so was surprised to encounter my first hardcore young earth fundies in my mid-twenties. Even the fundie college I went to does not buy into this teaching--or didn't when I was there--so doesn't get Hammy's approval. Do you know how fucked up you have to be for cofo to be too "liberal" for your taste?

In any event, for young earth creationists, it isn't just a matter of theological debate. To argue otherwise is a direct attack on the Bible to them.

I don't know that Jill's family would have taken the time to actually think through the implications, but don't they have Ken Ham books in the house? It might be a teaching she encountered as an adult, but it doesn't surprise me that she is very upset and emotional about it. 

In my experience, the fundies who subscribe to Ken Ham think they have a real gotcha with their argument and they are confused and dismayed if you still don't accept it. She probably has cognitive dissonance in trying to wrap her brain around how Derrick can be a believer and not agree with her on this.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Zella

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

I don't know if the Duggars grew up with the influence of Ken Ham, but to him, the whole old earth versus young earth debate is very much the hill he dies on. As he sees it, not accepting a very literal young earth creation erodes the foundation of the Bible's inerrancy. That's why he is so fixated on things like Noah and Creation. I don't know that he has ever said this, but he essentially thinks that if you "compromise" and accept the earth is millions of years old, you are no better than an atheist.

I never gave any of these things much thought myself so was surprised to encounter my first hardcore young earth fundies in my mid-twenties. Even the fundie college I went to does not buy into this teaching--or didn't when I was there--so doesn't get Hammy's approval. Do you know how fucked up you have to be for cofo to be too "liberal" for your taste?

In any event, for young earth creationists, it isn't just a matter of theological debate. To argue otherwise is a direct attack on the Bible to them.

I don't know that Jill's family would have taken the time to actually think through the implications, but don't they have Ken Ham books in the house? It might be a teaching she encountered as an adult, but it doesn't surprise me that she is very upset and emotional about it. 

In my experience, the fundies who subscribe to Ken Ham think they have a real gotcha with their argument and they are confused and dismayed if you still don't accept it. She probably has cognitive dissonance in trying to wrap her brain around how Derrick can be a believer and not agree with her on this.

I don't think it's impossible that Jill will eventually reconsider her views.   It won't come easily or be entered into willful reconsideration if she understands that's the door she's walking into however.    I said yesterday, I would expect Jill's path there will be encountering and accepting knowledge and facts that she has no idea intersect with her views on young earth, etc.   I wouldn't be surprised to see some of this happening as Israel and Sam share their experiences and what they learned today when they come home from school, and bit by bit Jill is picking up and accepting facts that she won't appreciate undercut her blind acceptance until it's pointed out much later.   It will be a very difficult position for her to even consider backtracking with her boys and try telling them that X, Y, Z facts they learned in second grade, fourth grade, seventh grade, etc. are incorrect after all and they should ignore them from then out.   The horse will be well and truly out of the barn at that point.

[Lady Whistleup]

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

In my experience, the fundies who subscribe to Ken Ham think they have a real gotcha with their argument and they are confused and dismayed if you still don't accept it. She probably has cognitive dissonance in trying to wrap her brain around how Derrick can be a believer and not agree with her on this.

Well in the video, you could tell Derick and Jill have been down this road before and Derick says they "agree to disagree." But Jill doesn't agree to disagree at all, and it's clear she finds Derick's old earth beliefs completely unacceptable. I mean what's next? Derick believes in fossils and carbon dating? 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Lady Whistleup

[ginger90]

Video:

 

 

[Jynnan tonnix]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

I don't know if the Duggars grew up with the influence of Ken Ham, but to him, the whole old earth versus young earth debate is very much the hill he dies on. As he sees it, not accepting a very literal young earth creation erodes the foundation of the Bible's inerrancy. That's why he is so fixated on things like Noah and Creation. I don't know that he has ever said this, but he essentially thinks that if you "compromise" and accept the earth is millions of years old, you are no better than an atheist.

I never gave any of these things much thought myself so was surprised to encounter my first hardcore young earth fundies in my mid-twenties. Even the fundie college I went to does not buy into this teaching--or didn't when I was there--so doesn't get Hammy's approval. Do you know how fucked up you have to be for cofo to be too "liberal" for your taste?

In any event, for young earth creationists, it isn't just a matter of theological debate. To argue otherwise is a direct attack on the Bible to them.

I don't know that Jill's family would have taken the time to actually think through the implications, but don't they have Ken Ham books in the house? It might be a teaching she encountered as an adult, but it doesn't surprise me that she is very upset and emotional about it. 

In my experience, the fundies who subscribe to Ken Ham think they have a real gotcha with their argument and they are confused and dismayed if you still don't accept it. She probably has cognitive dissonance in trying to wrap her brain around how Derrick can be a believer and not agree with her on this.

Yup...He was the first thing that came to my mind. He, and Kent Hovind and others. Their stance is basically that no matter what proof they are presented with of any Old Earth facts, and no matter how reality contradicts what the Bible says, they will never, ever cave into doubting that every word in the Bible is sacred Truth. It's reality that has it wrong.

Jill should watch some of Aron Ra's talks on You Tube, but she'd probably not even be able to get past his appearance. Maybe she (and Derick, for that matter) could start with Seth Andrews. He has a much gentler approach.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Jynnan tonnix

[SMama]

I really understand the need to get out and allow the boys to release energy. But they are in an interactive museum and sorry Jill, but it’s not super clean.

There seemed to be some social distancing and mask wearing. Then the kids are touching items touched by who knows how many before. I did not see anyone in the background sanitizing the areas. 

There’s no way I’d set foot in a place like that. For Spring break we are going to a drive in and watch whatever they are showing. Also doing some hiking. And just checking out the San Luis Obispo area. 

I’m getting the first Fauci Ouchie dose Friday before we head out. We are so close all we have to do is hang in there a little longer.

FWIW it’s good to see Jill doing things on her own with the boys. 

[Quilt Fairy]

Is Ken Ham the man that debated Bill Nye the Science Guy about the age of the Earth?  I didn't see it, but I heard it was classic.

 

 

[Lady Whistleup]

You know Jill in that video really bothered me. I think it was the smug anti-intellectualism that was annoying. I could see her reacting that way if Derick talked down to her, but that wasn't what happened. He was trying to explain his POV about believing in the Genesis as more of a metaphor and thus why you could believe in the Genesis AND believe that the earth is billions of years old. She had this total "you're not godly enough for me at this moment" expression.

She's going to be in for a rough ride when Izzy starts doing science projects. 

[Zella]

42 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Is Ken Ham the man that debated Bill Nye the Science Guy about the age of the Earth?  I didn't see it, but I heard it was classic.

 

 

Yes that was him. 

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

You know Jill in that video really bothered me. I think it was the smug anti-intellectualism that was annoying. I could see her reacting that way if Derick talked down to her, but that wasn't what happened. He was trying to explain his POV about believing in the Genesis as more of a metaphor and thus why you could believe in the Genesis AND believe that the earth is billions of years old. She had this total "you're not godly enough for me at this moment" expression.

She's going to be in for a rough ride when Izzy starts doing science projects. 

It really wasn't a great moment for her.  But I can sense she knows she can't win a debate with him, so she resorts to cutting him off, saying they've already discussed it, and not letting him get his thoughts out.  Damn it, he sounds perfectly rational and reasonable in moments like this.  I figure that Jill wasn't brainwashed in two years and she won't break free for a long time.  I like to think that God is special and some of what he does is just magic.  Or is that Disney?  I'm a heathen. 

I am enjoying a bible off between two religious zealots.  It must be exhausting to be one of god's special warriors. 

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I like to think that God is special and some of what he does is just magic.  Or is that Disney?  I'm a heathen. 

TBH as someone who is a Christian, I find it exhausting that people like Ken Ham are so obsessed with trying to prove their point about a young earth. Some of his stuff where he tries to go into showing how Noah's Ark would have worked is practically unhinged. Like, it is some of the most insane stuff I've ever read, and I have read some really bizarre stuff in my time. To me, it just seems counterintuitive to try to prove this if God is supposed to be beyond human understanding. Maybe they should try reading some Kierkegaard.

Then again, I also think one's faith is an entirely private matter, and it has never bothered me whether anyone else had a belief or what their religious/spiritual beliefs are. Fundies like Ken Ham (and the Duggars) would obviously disagree and find me wanting. 

[emmawoodhouse]

The Duggars were shown at the Creation Museum on an old episode of x Kids. Jana even admitted that evolution had some "good points." This was before the Ark Encounter was up and running, but I'm sure the Duggars have visited since. But yeah, Ken Ham made a guest appearance. 

The debate between Ham and Nye was classic. Nye killed it! 😁

Independent Lens showed an excellent documentary on the opening of the Ark Encounter, narrated by a guy who once worshipped Young Earth Creationism and Ken Ham. I wish I could remember the film's name, but I saw it about a year ago. If it comes to me, I will definitely post it because it's worth watching just to see how these people - some of them with doctorates - operate.

We Believe in Dinosaurs

Edited March 25, 2021 by emmawoodhouse

[Gweilo]

13 hours ago, questionfear said:

Based on other conservative legal thinkers, he can replace Alito or Thomas on the Supreme Court with that legalistic attitude. 

The ONLY good thing about Derick being on the Supreme Court would be the delicious fact that for all his planning, breeding, and 200 year plan, the only Duggar (adjacent) to have political power and clout would be the one that JB *doesn't* have a relationship with.

[GeeGolly]

How is Creationism taught in Fundyland? Is there sections of the Bible where it comes up and its taught as a series of Bible lessons over time? Or do Fundies actually teach it while arguing against evolution? Or is it a more subtle teaching that kind of, just is?

We're not Catholic but our kids went to Catholic school. There are a few things we disagree with the Church on. We didn't want to pit our young (and very outspoken) kids against their teachers or classmates, so we decided on a laid-back approach, emphasizing overall tolerance and grace in the general sense of being, and we would tackle any specifics when then came up - came up due to school and in the course of life.  As they got older, we continued to emphasize curiosity of history and facts in regard to all religions. Fortunately, this worked out fine, actually better than expected, as it gave us opportunities for discussions we likely would not have had.

So I guess my question is, how will the Dillards handle this. Will they scramble and make sure Izzy and Sam are firm in Creationism before they can learn anything else? Is Jill going to be questioning Izzy about his lesson plans and interfere with his education? Will they pit themselves and their kids against the school?

Or is this much ado about nothing and likely won't be an issue?

Edited March 25, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Lady Whistleup]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

How is Creationism taught in Fundyland? Is there sections of the Bible where it comes up and its taught as a series of Bible lessons over time? Or do Fundies actually teach it while arguing against evolution? Or is it a more subtle teaching that kind of, just is?

We're not Catholic but our kids went to Catholic school. There are a few things we disagree with the Church on. We didn't want to pit our young (and very outspoken) kids against their teachers or classmates, so we decided on a laid-back approach, emphasizing overall tolerance and grace in the general sense of being, and we would tackle any specifics when then came up - came up due to school and in the course of life.  As they got older, we continued to emphasize curiosity of history and facts in regard to all religions. Fortunately, this worked out fine, actually better than expected, as it gave us opportunities for discussions we likely would not have had.

So I guess my question is, how will the Dillards handle this. Will they scramble and make sure Izzy and Sam are firm in Creationism before they can learn anything else? Is Jill going to be questioning Izzy about his lesson plans and interfere with his education? Will they pit themselves and their kids against the school?

Or is this much ado about nothing and likely won't be an issue?

Derick believes in "old earth" so I suspect if Derick is in charge of Izzy's education it won't really be an issue. Old Earth is basically "the earth is billions of years old. The six days are metaphors." 

It will be a major issue with Jill, but judging from what we've seen Derick is in charge of helping Izzy with schoolwork. Probably because Jill actually can't be of much help.

I think Izzy will soon be more educated than Jill, sad to say. Like "soon" meaning in a year or two.

[Tikichick]

18 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Video:

 

 

I was discouraged to hear that  Yay!  was back.   Also back to the old routine of, are you having fun?  Are you having fun?  Are you having fun?

If you brought your kids there to have fun and they're apparently very content and enthusiastically engaged in the activities, then let them do what you brought them there to do!  

[Zella]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

 Or do Fundies actually teach it while arguing against evolution?

I'm most familiar with it as this, though again my encounters ended up being with people who are really fixated on young earth creationism, so it is a topic they emphasize perhaps more than others would. I wouldn't know how other fundies at large approach it. As I noted earlier, where I attended college is pretty fundamentalist, but their science department didn't hold to young earth theories at all. As a transfer student, I didn't take any science classes there. If I had, it would have been interesting to see how it was handled and if students pushed back and how many seemed uncomfortable with it. 

[libgirl2]

6 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

We're not Catholic but our kids went to Catholic school. There are a few things we disagree with the Church on. We didn't want to pit our young (and very outspoken) kids against their teachers or classmates, so we decided on a laid-back approach, emphasizing overall tolerance and grace in the general sense of being, and we would tackle any specifics when then came up - came up due to school and in the course of life.  As they got older, we continued to emphasize curiosity of history and facts in regard to all religions. Fortunately, this worked out fine, actually better than expected, as it gave us opportunities for discussions we likely would not have had.

 

I went to Catholic school for 8 years and for the life of me, I don't remember what we were taught! I think I always saw creation/evolution going hand in hand somehow. 

[madpsych78]

34 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I was discouraged to hear that  Yay!  was back.   Also back to the old routine of, are you having fun?  Are you having fun?  Are you having fun?

If you brought your kids there to have fun and they're apparently very content and enthusiastically engaged in the activities, then let them do what you brought them there to do!  

Yeah, Jill, if you have to constantly ask if they are having fun when it's obvious they are engaged, then you're not doing a good job of reading the room.

[Jynnan tonnix]

14 hours ago, hathorlive said:

It really wasn't a great moment for her.  But I can sense she knows she can't win a debate with him, so she resorts to cutting him off, saying they've already discussed it, and not letting him get his thoughts out.  Damn it, he sounds perfectly rational and reasonable in moments like this.  I figure that Jill wasn't brainwashed in two years and she won't break free for a long time.  I like to think that God is special and some of what he does is just magic.  Or is that Disney?  I'm a heathen. 

I am enjoying a bible off between two religious zealots.  It must be exhausting to be one of god's special warriors. 

There are probably a whole lot of people like Jill out there. Even Mr. Jyn (who is the type of person who is practically allergic to admitting he doesn't know the answer to a question) has resorted to it when conversation goes anywhere near theology (and I do love a good religious debate!). He just bristles and says he doesn't want to talk about it. I have worn him down some over the years, though, and some of my grumblings have penetrated, because while he was a somewhat devout Catholic when we were first married, I'd say he's more or less just a deist who still likes to get ashes on Ash Wednesday, but otherwise hasn't even been to church on Christmas or Easter in at least ten or fifteen years.

Sometimes he talks about maybe going back to church, but checking out an Episcopal congregation or something, as the Catholic Church has kind of left him with a bad taste over the years.

Anyway, point being that Jill doesn't want to get into a debate because she doesn't have the ammunition, and maybe realizes, on some level that the Young Earth model is really not viable, but it scares her to think about it.

If Derick is smart, he'll leave her alone to stew in her doubts, with an occasional morsel of science, until she either comes to her own conclusions, or at least gets desensitized to the ideas enough that she's more comfortable discussing. I'd imagine that in the next couple of years, things that Izzy brings home from school might speed up the process.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Jynnan tonnix

[GeeGolly]

50 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I went to Catholic school for 8 years and for the life of me, I don't remember what we were taught! I think I always saw creation/evolution going hand in hand somehow. 

I didn't mean to imply Catholic school taught Creationism. I just used it as an example of kids going to a school learning specific things that the parents might disagree with. 

An example of this was when my daughter came home with a flyer in first grade saying all of America is "holding hands this weekend". The good thing was it started a discussion in our house about human rights/women's rights. Unfortunately the flyer mentioned abortions, something I wasn't planning on discussing at such a young age. 

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I didn't mean to imply Catholic school taught Creationism. I just used it as an example of kids going to a school learning specific things that the parents might disagree with. 

An example of this was when my daughter came home with a flyer in first grade saying all of America is "holding hands this weekend". The good thing was it started a discussion in our house about human rights/women's rights. Unfortunately the flyer mentioned abortions, something I wasn't planning on discussing at such a young age. 

I think one of the differences in fundie parenting from what I have observed is they don't really use teachable moments to have actual conversations with their kids like you did. On anything! I really see this especially at the library. They see a book they don't like it and instead of talking to their kids about it, they just forbid the book. And sometimes they go farther than that and want to forbid anyone from reading it. 🙄

My dad was someone who never taught me to be afraid of ideas, which I am eternally grateful for, so I read a wide variety of stuff (some of it probably not age-appropriate, TBH). But he always wanted to talk to me about I'd read, and if I disagreed with him, he wanted to know why. It never made him mad, and I really think it taught me a lot about critical thinking. 

I feel comfortable arguing with my dad and giving him my opinions, and I bet your kids feel comfortable talking to you because they knew they could talk to you without it turning into a thing. You don't get to have those conversations, though, in the fundie world. 

What I see with fundie parents is that disagreement of any sort is not an option, and people are not encouraged to read outside of material that agrees with them. Ideas that disagree with you are to be combatted or avoided, not engaged with, so I think most fundie children would be instinctively afraid of talking to a parent about something they disagree with. Of course, Jill would never have been in public school with her parents' beliefs, but if she had, I think she would have been afraid to come home and ask questions about how what she was learning in school seemed to differ what she was taught at home. 

 

[iwantcookies]

2 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

 

I think Izzy will soon be more educated than Jill, sad to say. Like "soon" meaning in a year or two.

Lol very true

[Tikichick]

Let's face it, a lot of what Jill grew up feeling was bedrock under her feet has shaken, if not outright crumbled out from beneath her the past few years.  That probably ups the odds she wants to hang onto what familiar and comfortable she still has, which may make the young earth belief something she's prepared to double down on for emotional reasons she may not even consciously understand.  

 

I always find it confusing and frustrating when Christians shirk the poking and prodding of learning and knowledge when it comes to scriptures and beliefs.   Jesus himself was raised in the tradition of Judaism, which very strongly holds to the practice of studying and questioning.  At some point in time when he was calling out the Pharisees or when he went through the temple like a hurricane and told them all what hypocrites they were, surely he would have said, and by the way, it's not your job to question the Word of God, you should just accept it, end of story.  I definitely believe humans were created with the brains we have so that we should use them.   

[MargeGunderson]

What bugs me about Jill’s reluctance to question creation is that there are plenty of other things in the Old Testament that she doesn’t follow strictly. Same for other literalists. They pick and choose what they decide to take literally while at the same time saying it’s all the exact word of God. That’s not how it works! 

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Let's face it, a lot of what Jill grew up feeling was bedrock under her feet has shaken, if not outright crumbled out from beneath her the past few years.  That probably ups the odds she wants to hang onto what familiar and comfortable she still has, which may make the young earth belief something she's prepared to double down on for emotional reasons she may not even consciously understand.  

 

I always find it confusing and frustrating when Christians shirk the poking and prodding of learning and knowledge when it comes to scriptures and beliefs.   Jesus himself was raised in the tradition of Judaism, which very strongly holds to the practice of studying and questioning.  At some point in time when he was calling out the Pharisees or when he went through the temple like a hurricane and told them all what hypocrites they were, surely he would have said, and by the way, it's not your job to question the Word of God, you should just accept it, end of story.  I definitely believe humans were created with the brains we have so that we should use them.   

In one of the mandatory religion classes I had to take at C of O, the professor was obviously getting pretty irritated with my narrow-minded fundie classmates, and he actually snapped at them that God gave them a brain with the expectation that they'd use it. It was gloriously awkward, but I could tell that news was for quite a few of them. And that actually happened in another class there that was about logic. It was very strange to witness, but there were a lot of my classmates who seemed to define critical thinking as just "I have thought deeply about how to justify my own beliefs" without ever delving into actual critical thinking. Sadly, with the Duggars, I don't think they ever even reached "thinking deeply about how to justify my own beliefs." 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Zella

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

At some point in time when he was calling out the Pharisees or when he went through the temple like a hurricane and told them all what hypocrites they were, surely he would have said, and by the way, it's not your job to question the Word of God, you should just accept it, end of story.

Isn’t the whole issue that Jesus had with the Pharisees that they were too legalistic and judgmental? 🤦🏻‍♀️ Gee, I wonder what the metaphor is there...

On the one hand, I feel compassion for Jill because the foundations of her worldview have been exploded into rubble. On the other hand, I feel frustration because I think maybe this random, ridiculous Young Earth thing might very well be her “bridge too far” and she’s reaching her limit on how much she’s willing to grow and change. The truth is, if I somehow found myself married to Derick, he could expose me to mainstream conservative, evangelical life all day every day, and it probably wouldn’t make a bit of difference in my beliefs about politics or theology or life. At a point, if you disagree then you disagree, and more time or exposure isn’t going to change that. If I don’t think I would change much in that situation, and wouldn’t become more conservative, then why should I expect Jill to change and become more liberal? 🤷🏻‍♀️ Maybe this is a childish way of looking at it.

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Let's face it, a lot of what Jill grew up feeling was bedrock under her feet has shaken, if not outright crumbled out from beneath her the past few years.  That probably ups the odds she wants to hang onto what familiar and comfortable she still has, which may make the young earth belief something she's prepared to double down on for emotional reasons she may not even consciously understand.  

 

I always find it confusing and frustrating when Christians shirk the poking and prodding of learning and knowledge when it comes to scriptures and beliefs.   Jesus himself was raised in the tradition of Judaism, which very strongly holds to the practice of studying and questioning.  At some point in time when he was calling out the Pharisees or when he went through the temple like a hurricane and told them all what hypocrites they were, surely he would have said, and by the way, it's not your job to question the Word of God, you should just accept it, end of story.  I definitely believe humans were created with the brains we have so that we should use them.   

I think that the way "learning" is approached at the TTH is that 1) you read a thing in a Wisdom booklet 2) you memorize it 3) you regurgitate it on demand 4) you get a "diploma."

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people in cults -- or with basically unsupportable beliefs -- is that they are taught the potential criticisms of their beliefs, and a series of smack-downs to immediately shut down or circumvent and further conversation.

While I think that Jill is fine with deferring to Derick as better educated, and possibly even as "smarter" (he's a man, but she's a Duggar so . . .), I don't think she's going to be as willing to defer on points of scripture or religion. I'm sure that the fact that she's already pulled out her fool-proof smack down for anti-creationists, and still hasn't convinced Derick is pretty frustrating.

[GeeGolly]

Their disagreement matters very little in regard to their overarching beliefs. Believing in Noah's Ark hurts no one. Interfering with human rights does. Derick and Jill are on the same page where their beliefs and hate converge. 

I'd be more than happy if Jill thought dinos and humans kicked back, if she believed humans should have equal rights.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

 Sadly, with the Duggars, I don't think they ever even reached "thinking deeply about how to justify my own beliefs." 

Sadder still, I think the Duggar offspring were never even made aware there was any thinking deeply to be done about JB's belief system.  It just was THE belief system of the household, one size fits all.   When you have that many people living together sharing a bedroom, sharing shoes, sharing clothing, with a sham of an education it's probably not tough to just normalize the idea that, of course we all share Pops' ideas, he knows best.   

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Isn’t the whole issue that Jesus had with the Pharisees that they were too legalistic and judgmental? 🤦🏻‍♀️ Gee, I wonder what the metaphor is there...

On the one hand, I feel compassion for Jill because the foundations of her worldview have been exploded into rubble. On the other hand, I feel frustration because I think maybe this random, ridiculous Young Earth thing might very well be her “bridge too far” and she’s reaching her limit on how much she’s willing to grow and change. The truth is, if I somehow found myself married to Derick, he could expose me to mainstream conservative, evangelical life all day every day, and it probably wouldn’t make a bit of difference in my beliefs about politics or theology or life. At a point, if you disagree then you disagree, and more time or exposure isn’t going to change that. If I don’t think I would change much in that situation, and wouldn’t become more conservative, then why should I expect Jill to change and become more liberal? 🤷🏻‍♀️ Maybe this is a childish way of looking at it.

I believe he rapped the Pharisees on the knuckles for extreme displays of piety and told them they were meaningless.   I'm guessing that's not an often referenced passage in Duggar world.

Derick may have headshipped Jill into the space where she can seek out knowledge and ideas, but I don't think her potential for changing her opinion is very likely to come from him directly.    I think the most likely way in is backdooring the notion through the boys learning, being excited about what they're learning, coming home and sharing.   If they come home talking about something they learned and she doesn't see it as in conflict with young earth concept and she takes it in and expresses acceptance, it will be both part of her thought pattern going forward, and something the boys would be likely to remind her of if young earth became a disputed subject of conversation later with the boys.   If they come home sharing something they learned and she says, oh no, the Bible says X, that's not right, Israel has already shown signs of the personality that will later say, hey Dad, we learned this at school today and mom says the Bible says it's wrong, what gives?   I think Derick will then explain his understanding to the boys.   At that point I think he would also end up having a talk with Jill about  not undermining their learning and not forcing her belief on them, but to let them decide what they think.        

 

47 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I think that the way "learning" is approached at the TTH is that 1) you read a thing in a Wisdom booklet 2) you memorize it 3) you regurgitate it on demand 4) you get a "diploma."

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people in cults -- or with basically unsupportable beliefs -- is that they are taught the potential criticisms of their beliefs, and a series of smack-downs to immediately shut down or circumvent and further conversation.

While I think that Jill is fine with deferring to Derick as better educated, and possibly even as "smarter" (he's a man, but she's a Duggar so . . .), I don't think she's going to be as willing to defer on points of scripture or religion. I'm sure that the fact that she's already pulled out her fool-proof smack down for anti-creationists, and still hasn't convinced Derick is pretty frustrating.

Many times people with the philosophy that everyone must share a specific belief system in such and such way do it by misusing Paul's Be Ye Separate message from Corinthians.  (Feel very free to use Gothard as an example here).  Generally if you look at those who invoke Paul's words in that way you'll notice a distinct intent to exert control over others, rather than an intent to keep themselves away from things that will cause them trouble or temptation they can't resist.  They overlook reading the passage with the perspective of pulling the log out of their own eye before trying to pull the sliver from someone else's.   They also fail to consider how to put Paul's words in context with what Jesus said about he who casts the first stone and whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren you do to me.  That Temple curtain didn't split in two for absolutely no reason, or just to have jaws drop.   It rent in two to remove the idea of God being separate from his people, that now the Spirit was entirely free in the world, ready to set souls ablaze in faith directly.   Be Ye Separate certainly isn't about looking down on anybody or seeing yourself as better than anyone else in the eyes of God.