Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[BitterApple]

I love the "Dear God, will someone in my family have a tragic accident so I can have an excuse to get the fuck out of here" crazed look in her eyes. Don't worry Jilly Muffin, it's only a matter of time before one of the Mkids or Littles takes a spill off that death trap treehouse.

[JoanArc]

That post is a coded message that really means - Jill/Derick (or both) is depressed, and desperately trying to pray it away. So...a mid 20's loser, shambling through life on the other guy's dime is now a psychology/mental health expert. Good to know. He'd do well to take advice, not give it.

[NewDigs]

31 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Even if? And what does Deuteronomy say?

"Even if it means we have to hang Jill's crappy artwork instead of something nice from Walmart.

Deuteronomy 6:9

"And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

The Commandments? 

[GeeGolly]

Is Jill wearing a name tag?

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, NewDigs said:

"Even if it means we have to hang Jill's crappy artwork instead of something nice from Walmart.

Deuteronomy 6:9

"And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

The Commandments? 

Those are probably left over from the art supplies they managed to grift.  Her artwork looks like something I did in first grade. 

I couldn't get through his rambly idiotic preachy bullshit.  He started being somewhat empathetic but since he lost family and has friends who lost family to suicide, he should understand that it's real and people need not just a counselor that's qualified, but sometimes medication as well.

Our God also gives people talent to heal the sick and a brain and awareness to realize when something just is not in balance. Derick minimizing a serious medical condition to something one just prays away is beyond irresponsible. Evangelical Christians are less likely to seek out help as it is due to the stigma their community places upon it. Let's just force people back into the closet than have them come out and seek the help they need.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Arwen Evenstar
Typos

[bigskygirl]

 I finally found figure it out why the doctors have not found out the reasoning behind me feeling like crap for three and a half years. It is not side effects from the radiation treatment, medications and one idiot doctor, it is because I am I am not seeing qualified Christian physicians. I must call my doctors and physician assistant Tuesday morning and ask if they are religious enough to handle the evilness within my mind and body. Forgot the medications/CPAP machine. I can get down on my knees, fall face down, and cry to God for his mercy instead. I must have not read the bible and pray my little heart out because I was sent to a moron doctor who thought someone died and made him God in the medical world. Thank you Derick for saving me. I am so grateful!!!  

*disclaimer* I do not care for his response to people who are facing mental illnesses. I have family members who face mental illnesses on a daily basis. Derick needs to wake up and smell the coffee or whatever he may or may not be smelling. Someone needs to introduce him to something I like to call reality. What a slap in the face of people with one or more mental illnesses. Just pray, ask God for mercy, and go to a qualified Christian therapist. Did that work for your brother-in-law when he was caught molesting girls.

[tabloidlover]

Brilliant post, Bigskygirl!   Allow me to answer your question... Praying and Christian therapists work really well for molestation issues.  The problem is when Satan builds a fortress in your heart.  Clearly, you weren't interpreting their explanations very well. 

[bigskygirl]

Oops...me bad... I will go fall  face down and cry for mercy from God.

[riverblue22]

My coworker's husband suffered from serious depression for many years.  She was a Southern Baptist and he went along for the ride (although I think he was raised in a United Methodist Church).  She had no patience for his depression--thought it was imaginary--but finally let him go to a "Christian counselor."  That was worthless.  The only reason he ever got effective help was because he was having trouble at work and his company sent him to a real therapist.  He's so much better now--but it took at least the 30 years I have known him to get positive help.

[cmr2014]

I only read part of it, but it is scary.

In the short segement that I read, he mentioned suicide three times. It's entirely possible to have serious clinical depression without thinking of suicide. It is not helpful to those people to continue to equate depression with suicidal tendencies. I'm not suicidal, so I must just be fine -- maybe I just need to pray more . . .

He also mentioned seeing a "Christian counselor" which seems like a huge breakthrough when you consider the source, but as Riverblue22 mentioned, the value of a "Christian counselor" is questionable.

He mentioned at least three times that he has no knowledge on the subject, and then continued to blather on and on. There is a reason why legitimate missionaries have credentials and training. There is a reason why legitimate pastors are educated and serve under senior clergy members for a number of years. Derick is an idiot and he doesn't even know that he's an idiot, and there's no one who is in charge down there who is monitoring his idiocy on-line.

[Arwen Evenstar]

9 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I only read part of it, but it is scary.

In the short segement that I read, he mentioned suicide three times. It's entirely possible to have serious clinical depression without thinking of suicide. It is not helpful to those people to continue to equate depression with suicidal tendencies. I'm not suicidal, so I must just be fine -- maybe I just need to pray more . . .

He also mentioned seeing a "Christian counselor" which seems like a huge breakthrough when you consider the source, but as Riverblue22 mentioned, the value of a "Christian counselor" is questionable.

He mentioned at least three times that he has no knowledge on the subject, and then continued to blather on and on. There is a reason why legitimate missionaries have credentials and training. There is a reason why legitimate pastors are educated and serve under senior clergy members for a number of years. Derick is an idiot and he doesn't even know that he's an idiot, and there's no one who is in charge down there who is monitoring his idiocy on-line.

Well, you know the Duggars prefer to earn their skills by "watching someone else do it". Why would being a minister or missionary be any different?

[Portia]

17 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I only read part of it, but it is scary.

In the short segement that I read, he mentioned suicide three times. It's entirely possible to have serious clinical depression without thinking of suicide. It is not helpful to those people to continue to equate depression with suicidal tendencies. I'm not suicidal, so I must just be fine -- maybe I just need to pray more . . .

He also mentioned seeing a "Christian counselor" which seems like a huge breakthrough when you consider the source, but as Riverblue22 mentioned, the value of a "Christian counselor" is questionable.

He mentioned at least three times that he has no knowledge on the subject, and then continued to blather on and on. There is a reason why legitimate missionaries have credentials and training. There is a reason why legitimate pastors are educated and serve under senior clergy members for a number of years. Derick is an idiot and he doesn't even know that he's an idiot, and there's no one who is in charge down there who is monitoring his idiocy on-line.

Good points all. It also seems to me that  he's  perpetuating the myth tbat depression is always situational. My youngest  daughter  has expressed to me that  the  most  maddening part of her  depression is that it so often has no discernable external  cause. It can strike when things are going great for her, and THAT is what insensitive  people just can't  get. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Portia

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, Portia said:

Good piints all. It also seems to me that  he's  perpetuating the myth tbat depression is always situational. My youngest  daughter  has expressed to me that  the  most  maddening part of her  depression is that it so often has no discernable external  cause. It can strike when things are going great for her, and THAT is what insensitive  people just can't  get. 

Quite right, Portia.  Depression can have a lot of triggers...be they situational, emotional, biochemical, or part of cause or effect of another medical condition .  I've had days when for no explainable reason, my joy has left me despite there being no stress or conflict at the moment, just a sense of malaise that somethings out of whack. One doesn't feel like that for no good reason. People who don't suffer from mood disorders have no idea how lucky they are. They really don't.

[MichaelaRae]

Oh, FUCK YOU, Dillard. How dare you act as if depression can just be prayed away. Tell that to my extended family who has lost three people to mental illness. Tell that to my dear friend who just lost her brother to it. Fuck your religion, you ass.

[MunichNark]

I've only skimmed, but had to stop. I cannot entertain such rage and unkind thoughts on a Sunday morn. I really cannot.

Fuck you Dullard. Just fuck you.

[Defrauder]

Not only is Derick a bold faced liar (yes Derick - science has proven many biblical stories to be false) but to say that depression can be healed or treated with the bible is pure delusional fantasy.  Derick is more of a moron than is tolerable.  Well if someone like Gothard for example, sexually abuses a young teenage girl I suppose she should pray for a joyful heart about it since no credible person is going to help her.  Nope - not allowed.  Only Christian therapists to turn to to tell her it was her fault.  I could go on and on about how stupid Derick is - but he's obviously happy to live in complete delusional denial about the world as it truly is. Derick's stupidity is astounding. 

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, MunichNark said:

I've only skimmed, but had to stop. I cannot entertain such rage and unkind thoughts on a Sunday morn. I really cannot.

Fuck you Dullard. Just fuck you.

Mental illness, cancer, grinding poverty. It can all be prayed away.

Furthermore, human efforts to develop solutions are pure vanity. So when someone does emerge from such a disaster, any human assistance that contributed is severely downplayed if not outright ignored or even depicted as a kind of affront to God, whose power alone must be acknowledged as controlling it all. Makes clear that religion is, indeed, the opiate of the people. And why it's been fervently supported throughout history -- and today -- by the powerful whose interests are best served when the masses passively accept their lot and can only pray.

I'm afraid that getting a clue about all this is beyond the naive and ignorant like the Dillards. I do think that Derick -- like many of the ordinary people who preach this crap -- is well intentioned. Strikes me that his fervor in preaching "turn to God, turn only to God!" is as much an attempt to persuade himself to accept it as it is to convince anybody else. I'm guessing that his background, together with a follower nature and some tough things in his own life that he's struggling with, like his father's early death and his mother's scary illness (and maybe even some shocks he's gotten since becoming a Duggar-in-law), have erroneously told him that this holy passivity is the only answer (even though I see his overdone preaching as a likely sign that he, too, is uneasy with it).

Too bad he keeps living among other sheep who baaa this stuff continually. If he got yanked by the neck into a good School of Critical Thinking for a four-year term, he might come out as a reasonable 21st-century person who could do some good for others instead of bleating this offensive form of the gospel that basically boils down to: Shut up and don't rock the boat. There are other theologies and non-theologies he could choose from that would be much more in line with reality and of much more use. Too bad that his chances of encountering any of them seems slim.

I do think that we have to acknowledge that he's not uniquely stupid. There are hundreds of millions, possibly billions, of people on this planet still who embrace similar opiate-like views. We're awfully prone to think that poor silly Derick is unique and even evil for doing this.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Churchhoney

[MunichNark]

See, I cannot stand good intentions - often as not they are badly carried out and they don't absolve you from being an asshat.

And why do they conveniently stop trusting the Lord (TM) when it comes to their physical health? Difficult pregnancy? Let her die! Child with illness and won't live without medical help? Well tough luck to you. THAT would be consistent. But no, they hop onto that quick enough when it suits.

[Churchhoney]

3 minutes ago, MunichNark said:

See, I cannot stand good intentions - often as not they are badly carried out and they don't absolve you from being an asshat.

 

 

Well, here's the thing. I'm not saying that Derick is to be applauded. He's an uncritical thinker whose intentions lead him astray into a gigantic thinking error that's been shared by billions of people throughout history.  Furthermore, the level of anger, superiority and self-righteousness we engage in around here regarding him troubles me just as much as his spoutings do -- actually more so, because I participate in it. Yeah, I know he's wrong. But you know what? I hear plenty of proudly non-fundie people spout equally stupid and unhelpful crap that's deemed to be better by a lot of us because it's not religious. "Everything happens for reason." I'm sure you've heard some proudly non-religious people spout this piece of shit. To my mind, it's exactly the same thing as what Derick preaches. But it doesn't get nearly the same response from us enlightened moderns.

Our blanket, knee-jerk, all-or-nothing, unreflective condemnation of everything Duggar, Dillard, etc., is, to my mind, just as lacking in empathy and just as useless to humanity as the stuff the Duggars spout. Honestly, it drives me nuts when we instantly rant about how unbelievably evil somebody like Derick is because he shows no empathy for people while we are simultaneously showing absolutely no empathy and absolutely zero curiosity about what might lead him to say the crap he says -- or why people have said the crap he says throughout history.

The thing is, I keep forgetting that this is just a "tv snark site."  The trouble is, I don't like snark (even though I'm guilty of it quite frequently). I like trying to understand things, and to me that means trying to understand snarkable things too. Maybe it especially means understanding snarkable things. Because, otherwise, what is the point of righteous anger and snark? I don't think satire, for example, is the same as snark. Good satire takes on things about which the truth is still to be revealed. Things that actually have power over the satirist. Snark goes after the easy targets and is seldom an attempt to get us anywhere.

As I said, I don't think good intentions are adequate. However, I still think they're way way way more defensible than bad intentions. And a lot of times, I'm pretty sure that the snark and "criticism"  we engage in is pretty wholly fueled by bad intentions. Much like the bigots and missionaries we blast, I know that I way too often relish having someone to look down on and despise, without thought, without rue, without any attempt to parse out what is really going on or recognize anybody's humanity. And all that makes me, though better informed and probably smarter than Derick, a much worse person. And no more helpful to humanity than he is.

[queenanne]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Furthermore, human efforts to develop solutions are pure vanity. So when someone does emerge from such a disaster, any human assistance that contributed is severely downplayed if not outright ignored or even depicted as a kind of affront to God, whose power alone must be acknowledged as controlling it all. Makes clear that religion is, indeed, the opiate of the people. And why it's been fervently supported throughout history -- and today -- by the powerful whose interests are best served when the masses passively accept their lot and can only pray.

Did he say this, though, or is it a paraphrase?  (Just checking because I'm not going to listen to it, lol.)  The only reason why I mention this, is because it's clearly wrong by all the Duggar's and Quiverfull logic.  What happens to "don't have an abortion because that aborted fetus could be the doctor who cures cancer", if no one is supposed to cure cancer because human efforts to develop solutions are pure vanity?  What happens to "the point of having the reams of Christian (boy) children is so they can become politicians and change politics for Christianity", if no one is supposed to develop a solution to anything?

[Churchhoney]

8 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Did he say this, though, or is it a paraphrase?  (Just checking because I'm not going to listen to it, lol.)  The only reason why I mention this, is because it's clearly wrong by all the Duggar's and Quiverfull logic.  What happens to "don't have an abortion because that aborted fetus could be the doctor who cures cancer", if no one is supposed to cure cancer because human efforts to develop solutions are pure vanity?  What happens to "the point of having the reams of Christian (boy) children is so they can become politicians and change politics for Christianity", if no one is supposed to develop a solution to anything?

Yeah, I'm not only paraphrasing but extrapolating! And also reading in from Cathy's cancer talk and the focus on all-talk missionary that argues it makes a huge difference, and in fact the only difference that really matters, by simply telling people to turn to the right Jesus rather than by doing anything concrete to improve physical conditions, and so on!

It seems to me that it's the inescapable conclusion from all of that plus passages like this, from Derick's latest ruminations: "Even in times of distress, King David responded with prayers of thanksgiving and gratefulness to God.  David demonstrated his genuine faith in God by imploring divine intervention.  He recognized that there was no other viable solution besides that which God could provide."    Strikes me that if "there is no other viable solution" and Derick recommends only that you consult a "Christian counselor," by which I expect he means somebody who's a Christian in the same mold as Dillard/Duggars/SOS, then he's essentially saying that for the problems he's writing about here, nothing human will ever bring about improvement.

As you say, though, it's probably a logical contradiction with some other things that are said. Definitely the "don't abort the doctor who may cure cancer" thing, although I don't know whether I think it contradicts the "have lots of kids for the army of Christ" think or not. Since all those kids are going to do is turn the whole world 100 percent to the right Jesus and abandon all other human endeavor -- which is why they don't need to study science or history or languages or whatever in their homeschools if they don't feel like it.

So .... dunno, really. I wouldn't ever put it past Derick and his cohort to be illogical! On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily put it past me to be illogical either!

[queenanne]

18 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I'm not only paraphrasing but extrapolating! And also reading in from Cathy's cancer talk and the focus on all-talk missionary that argues it makes a huge difference, and in fact the only difference that really matters, by simply telling people to turn to the right Jesus rather than by doing anything concrete to improve physical conditions, and so on!

It seems to me that it's the inescapable conclusion from all of that plus passages like this, from Derick's latest ruminations: "Even in times of distress, King David responded with prayers of thanksgiving and gratefulness to God.  David demonstrated his genuine faith in God by imploring divine intervention.  He recognized that there was no other viable solution besides that which God could provide."    Strikes me that if "there is no other viable solution" and Derick recommends only that you consult a "Christian counselor," by which I expect he means somebody who's a Christian in the same mold as Dillard/Duggars/SOS, then he's essentially saying that for the problems he's writing about here, nothing human will ever bring about improvement.

As you say, though, it's probably a logical contradiction with some other things that are said. Definitely the "don't abort the doctor who may cure cancer" thing, although I don't know whether I think it contradicts the "have lots of kids for the army of Christ" think or not. Since all those kids are going to do is turn the whole world 100 percent to the right Jesus and abandon all other human endeavor -- which is why they don't need to study science or history or languages or whatever in their homeschools if they don't feel like it.

So .... dunno, really. I wouldn't ever put it past Derick and his cohort to be illogical! On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily put it past me to be illogical either!

Good to know - sometimes I get worried that a game of Internet Telephone starts where people say "Derick said blah blah blah", and then someone else says "OMG!  He did not!  Those awful Duggars," etc. painting them worse than they might in the actuality be, so glad to have the clarification!

I am puzzled as always by the use of "Christian counselor", because I feel like a lot of "Christian counselors" are legitimate individuals with appropriate master's degrees or at minimum even legitimate M. Div., but/because I don't know exactly what Derick means unless he's trying some fancy dodge specifically to avoid saying "some dime-store quack with no qualifications except they have gray hair and have attended my fundie church for 30+ years".  I personally would think it doesn't matter if your counselor or doctor isn't Christian because the only thing I would require from such an individual is that s/he not scoff if I were to say I believe in the power of prayer to heal people (not as a substitute for medicine, of course!); but honestly, when did "Christian counselor" become synonym for "unlicensed charlatan"?  Couldn't they use "church-based counselor" if they're hell-bent on that? 

[sometimesy]

Don't the Dullard consider themselves marriage counselors? If so, that gives a big hint what type of education a Christian counselor may have. 

[Churchhoney]

19 minutes ago, queenanne said:

 

I am puzzled as always by the use of "Christian counselor", because I feel like a lot of "Christian counselors" are legitimate individuals with appropriate master's degrees or at minimum even legitimate M. Div.,

Totally agree. I don't know what Derick means -- he may mean the legit, trained kind of Christian counselor who combines faith with human learning or he may mean a Duggar-type person who repudiates everything but the proper kind of prayer, just like Duggar Academy repudiates most learning... I guess I'm most inclined to think that he probably doesn't know which kind he means, actually.

My suspicion-- based on nothing but my unreliable gut, of course! --  is that Derick started out some years ago as what I'd call a reasonable Christian who leaned toward faith that's also informed by thought and knowledge. Then, perhaps because of a combination of tough life events and falling in with the Duggars, with his follower nature, he's picked up a strong strain of much more childlike, all-or-nothing faith that rejects the mind as the Duggars do. I suspect that he's now kind of suspended between these two things, which fact isn't going to make his preaching any clearer in the near future! 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Wellfleet]

On June 18, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Sew Sumi said:

I went back to school late in life, but I graduated before Derick. My alma mater (pictured in my avatar) required theses or capstone projects from all graduates. Then again, I went to the top public university in the country; I guess there's a reason my school continues to rank up there with Ivies. I guess OSU isn't known for their rigorous academic programs. I'll take my liberal arts degree from a Top 20 school over whatever OSU gave Derick any day of the week. :D

I guess they don't even require Freshmen to take at least one critical thinking/writing course? I know you can test out in high school, but SOMEWHERE along the line, even an accountant had to write at least three essays to meet a basic English requirement. Right? RIGHT????? 

Yes, Sew. You are completely right - nearly ALL regionally-accredited schools in the US require a basic writing requirement in their associate & bachelor degree programs. In fact, at this time most accredited schools are ADDING English and/or writing requirements to core curriculums and have been for at last the past dozen years. All you have to do is to read a few comments anywhere on the Web to see [1] why so many schools feel the need to ratchet up writing instruction and [2] how desperately it's needed in this country. Ppersonally I'm hoping that a small portion of that instruction includes the need for proofreading, because I can't get over how many web comments are rendered basically incomprehensible because of spelling errors and missing words. 

[Wellfleet]

On June 29, 2016 at 11:32 PM, BitterApple said:

Aboslutely. Just look at how Michelle was with Josie. She wore that kid like a badge of honor. A micropreemie was the perfect accessory for a narcissistic, mommy martyr like Michelle. 

Spot-on correct. There's no mistaking, IMO, that Me-chelle views Josie in this [twisted] way.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I think what annoys me the most about Derick is that he means well, but he does not have the authority to speak to the things he speaks to....and he comes off like a preachy asshat.  Had he been to seminary school ...were  he articulate and coherent...then he might have some credibility.

He's lost his dad as a teenager, nearly lost his mom to a stage IV cancer, and his wife is an incest survivor, so he's definitely dealt with some crap at his tender age.

i understand his desire to provide encouragement, but he could broaden his appeal by not just insisting on a Christian counselor, but a qualified counselor regardless of faith and also see a doctor first to rule out other health problems.

My doc is Jewish (conservative and observant), and he's brilliant and compassionate and gave me a work up to make sure I had no thyroid or kidney or liver disease before he prescribed me anti depressants. He also recommended therapy and if I also chose to do so, "that many people benefit from being part of their religious community".  He knew that meds  alone weren't the only thing I needed, but support from family friends, therapy and faith were also vital to my recovery.  

I went outside my faith (as the Duggars would say) to get the support I needed, but the important thing is, I knew I could trust a doc I've been going to for nearly 30 years to do what he thought was best for me, regardless of what religion he is, rather than some hack the Duggars might use.

[MunichNark]

I cannot begin to express my incredulousness (what IS the right word here?) that a Doctor would ever tell me that I should look towards Religion as a means to get better. I don't think that would go down well here at all.

Nothing wrong with it per se, as it's comforting when used properly and if you have a circle of friends/people, but a Doctor.......no, just plain odd to me.

Perhaps that tells you something about European culture. Who needs South America? Dullards? Dullards? Anyone? Dullards?

[Churchhoney]

14 minutes ago, MunichNark said:

I cannot begin to express my incredulousness (what IS the right word here?) that a Doctor would ever tell me that I should look towards Religion as a means to get better. I don't think that would go down well here at all.

 

U.S.? Europe? Really really different on the religion front. Personally, I'd feel much more comfortable with the European climate. But I've kinda gotten used to this one. And it's certainly not universal across the country. Strongly strongly influential, though. And as we continue the human project of creating a world that can actually take every individual's personhood and well-being into account, and presumably operates with some form of democracy, it's gotta be grappled with here. Not to say that it's easy to figure out how best to do that.

I think "incredulousness" is exactly the right word, by the way. If I hadn't lived here all these years, I'd be incredulous, too.

[Arwen Evenstar]

25 minutes ago, MunichNark said:

I cannot begin to express my incredulousness (what IS the right word here?) that a Doctor would ever tell me that I should look towards Religion as a means to get better. I don't think that would go down well here at all.

Nothing wrong with it per se, as it's comforting when used properly and if you have a circle of friends/people, but a Doctor.......no, just plain odd to me.

Perhaps that tells you something about European culture. Who needs South America? Dullards? Dullards? Anyone? Dullards?

I was prescribed meds by this doc.  He didn't tell me I should go to church and forget about meds and counseling. He was recommending other complementary support to go along with the meds and counseling, because depression is isolating and was suggesting various means to find support. They often recommend other sources to find support if there is a chance you won't come out to your family or friends with it.

Perhaps after a 30 year Doctor patient relationship, he felt OK bringing it up, or its standard protocol to suggest people get support any way they can. 

Can you picture a Duggar going to a Hindu, Jewish, or Muslim Doctor? Personally, all I care about is whether or not my doc is recognized in his/her field, race or gender or religion matters not to me.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Arwen Evenstar

[Arwen Evenstar]

Europe has an entirely different social climate.  There are very few stigmas and cities and towns are laid out so people have to interact.

 I've lived in my townhouse for nearly 20 years and we only know a few of our neighbors. Most lives of Americans revolves around work, we spend several hours a day trapped in our vehicles, fear of stranger danger and sexual assault keeps most people trapped indoors.  We can spend a day surrounded by people and still feel very lonely when we get home.

Europe is indeed different.  You actually see people enjoying their lives, plenty of green spaces, pedestrian zones,  mass transit is safe, reliable, efficient, and frequent and they actually enjoy a social safety net that we don't here. They are also tolerant of different people and already understand that legislating morality and religion was never very successful.

[Muffyn]

For those of you who could not make it to the end of Derek's missive on depression:

Quote

A joyful heart really is good medicine (Proverbs 17:22).  It’s interesting to me that the Bible has always been right regarding various fields of science, and that the progression of scientific discovery has only confirmed the word of God.  That is no different when it comes to psychology. 

This is the heart of the problem, the idea that the bible is always right in all things; i.e., knowledge does not progress and there is no knowledge outside of the bible.  Of course, this is tricky in  book that has been translated multiple times and still requires interpretation.  Add the major changes in society, technology, etc. and the idea that the bible can address all issues becomes more specious. 

Derek does have the faith of a child.  Unfortunately such faith is often shattered.  He has seen a lot of difficulties in his young life.  However, should he hit something that shakes his faith, his fall will be hard.

When it comes to Christian Counselors, there are many possibilities.  And I agree that Derek has probably not thought beyond using the terminology.  There are ministers/priests/rabbis/imams who are trained counselors.  As part of their accreditation/ordination process they need to take courses on counseling.  Often they need to have a counselor of their own who is similarly trained.  The best among these, when counseling someone with major depression, would recommend the person reach out to medical professionals.  There are other denominations in which there is no requirement for the clergy to have any knowledge of counseling.  Unfortunately that doesn't stop them from offering it.  Sure, they can guide someone to a bible (or whichever holy book) verse.  They may not be willing to look beyond that.  This can lead people with depression or other mental illness to feel they are simply not committed enough to their faith - a moral failing rather than a health issue.   

Unfortunately I don't think Derek is intellectually robust enough to understand that he is promoting the latter view of mental illness.

Also, there is a growing movement of Christian counselors who are not accredited in any way.  Hang up a shingle and call yourself a counselor.  Maybe you've gone to church for  a long time.  Maybe the local pastor thinks you have a good grasp on the Christian life.  Maybe you're a deacon or went to bible college.  So start counseling.  Explain how everything you need is in the bible.

And yes there are similar people on the secular side.  There are naturopathic healers that offer "cures" for mental illness that are nothing more than faith and snake oil.  God has a plan for everything in your life differs only slightly from the idea of a somehow sentient universe that has plans for you.  The language changes; the mythology is consistent. 

Whether Derek is limited intellectually or simply chooses to limit himself intellectually I don't know.  I do know that by accepting and promoting ideas that are not well considered and spouting his barely intellectualized thoughts on critical  issues, assuming somehow we will all benefit from his brilliance, makes him a Duggar through and through.   

[CofCinci]

20 hours ago, louannems said:

http://dillardfamily.com/life-matters?ID=e0811441-5f4d-4145-bf9d-3ff883a65389

I just couldn't read all of Derrick's ramblings about depression.  I'm just going to have to assume he is perpetuating the christian myth that depression isn't an actual illness, and the bible will cure it.

 

Jill is painting pictures for her wall decor.  She is even writing Spanish scripture on it!  

Maybe I'm too hard on myself -- but if I painted something as basic and unskilled as Jill's "canvas painting", I wouldn't hang it in my home.  I'd die of embarrassment.  Willing to try new things is awesome but start bragging when you have something worthy. 

Meri Brown's paint-by-the-glass 23 tree series vs. Jill Dillard's paint-the-ppd-away series. 

Meri wins. 

[Defrauder]

Since Derick is literally counting the hours he's been attached to Jill, I'm guessing that he's depressed.  He's either repressing it and projecting onto others what they should do if they're depressed or he's trying to convince himself that the bible will cure his miserable fate.

[GeeGolly]

"Therefore, if you are depressed because of some wrong you have done, the best response is to fall on your face before God and cry out to him for mercy."

Like cancer, asthma, diabetes, etc, mental health issues are not a sign a poor character. One doesn't become depressed because of "some wrong" they've done. the brain is the most complex, and least understood human organ. Epilepsy, Alzheimer's, stroke, etc are brain disorders as well.

Mental Health disorders can't be prayed away, although faith can be a support in the journey to wellness just like with any disease. Mental Health issue can be treated using a 3 pronged approach; medication, therapy and coping skills. Religion would be considered a coping skill.

The functions of the brain are real, and some of those functions control mood, thought & behavior. It's got nothing to do with the Devil, morality or sin.

Shut-up Derick.

[Defrauder]

19 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Europe has an entirely different social climate.  There are very few stigmas and cities and towns are laid out so people have to interact.

 I've lived in my townhouse for nearly 20 years and we only know a few of our neighbors. Most lives of Americans revolves around work, we spend several hours a day trapped in our vehicles, fear of stranger danger and sexual assault keeps most people trapped indoors.  We can spend a day surrounded by people and still feel very lonely when we get home.

Europe is indeed different.  You actually see people enjoying their lives, plenty of green spaces, pedestrian zones,  mass transit is safe, reliable, efficient, and frequent and they actually enjoy a social safety net that we don't here. They are also tolerant of different people and already understand that legislating morality and religion was never very successful.

That's an interesting perspective but I have to disagree about living in America.  Having lived in America my whole life I don't see most Americans trapped in vehicles for hours every day and trapped indoors in fear.  I don't see things that way at all.  Perhaps there are some areas of the country where that may be more common than others but I find that to be the exception and not the norm.  Of course we can agree to disagree.

As for Europe right now I think it is changing for the worse in recent years due to a lot of unfortunate culture changes they are experiencing.  At this point in history I view America as the safer place and where I live in particular extremely tolerant and friendly.  I definitely don't live anywhere near fundie-land. 

[Defrauder]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

"Therefore, if you are depressed because of some wrong you have done, the best response is to fall on your face before God and cry out to him for mercy."

Like cancer, asthma, diabetes, etc, mental health issues are not a sign a poor character. One doesn't become depressed because of "some wrong" they've done. the brain is the most complex, and least understood human organ. Epilepsy, Alzheimer's, stroke, etc are brain disorders as well.

Mental Health disorders can't be prayed away, although faith can be a support in the journey to wellness just like with any disease. Mental Health issue can be treated using a 3 pronged approach; medication, therapy and coping skills. Religion would be considered a coping skill.

The functions of the brain are real, and some of those functions control mood, thought & behavior. It's got nothing to do with the Devil, morality or sin.

Shut-up Derick.

Yeah shut up Derick you prick you have NO IDEA what you are talking about!   People don't become depressed by their own fault, by 'some wrong they have done', they will more likely become depressed by some wrong someone has done to them.

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, Defrauder said:

That's an interesting perspective but I have to disagree about living in America.  Having lived in America my whole life I don't see most Americans trapped in vehicles for hours every day and trapped indoors in fear.  I don't see things that way at all.  Perhaps there are some areas of the country where that may be more common than others but I find that to be the exception and not the norm.  Of course we can agree to disagree.

As for Europe right now I think it is changing for the worse in recent years due to a lot of unfortunate culture changes they are experiencing.  At this point in history I view America as the safer place and where I live in particular extremely tolerant and friendly.  I definitely don't live anywhere near fundie-land. 

I agree.

I see America as being less neighborhood-ly, due to the fact that more families have both parents working. I don't see people trapped in homes by fear either. Actually I work in the inner city and the folks there are typically more neighborly then the folks in the suburbs. And many of the small towns surrounding the city are 'walking towns' where it's easier to park close by and walk to do most errands. Kids in my neighborhood walk to school, ride their bikes, attend community events and the like.

[BitterApple]

I think Derick is having an early midlife crisis. He's terrified at the idea of being trapped in a cubicle farm, but he can't truly enjoy mission work because he's stuck with an immature lifesuck of a wife. Bottom line is I think both of them are bored out of their minds in Danger America but they can't give up the charade when they've already spent a year grifting for money. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

28 minutes ago, Defrauder said:

Since Derick is literally counting the hours he's been attached to Jill, I'm guessing that he's depressed.  He's either repressing it and projecting onto others what they should do if they're depressed or he's trying to convince himself that the bible will cure his miserable fate.

It stands to reason that neither one was prepared for marriage (mature enough) and now they've got a kid.  Double whammy now responsible for another life and not too many prospects outside of Duggarville. Jill's inability to function in the real world outside the compound is likely the trigger for her depression as well as her being only a month postpartum when the Josh scandal broke and having the scandal exposed.  She was likely in a more fragile state than anyone really could have imagined.  It's no coincidence that Dericktook her out of the country, hoping the scandal would blow over.

Jim Boob was hell bent on marrying Jilly off at any cost, and the hell with the consequences.  It just gives me another reason to loathe Boob.

[Arwen Evenstar]

32 minutes ago, Defrauder said:

That's an interesting perspective but I have to disagree about living in America.  Having lived in America my whole life I don't see most Americans trapped in vehicles for hours every day and trapped indoors in fear.  I don't see things that way at all.  Perhaps there are some areas of the country where that may be more common than others but I find that to be the exception and not the norm.  Of course we can agree to disagree.

As for Europe right now I think it is changing for the worse in recent years due to a lot of unfortunate culture changes they are experiencing.  At this point in history I view America as the safer place and where I live in particular extremely tolerant and friendly.  I definitely don't live anywhere near fundie-land. 

I do live in a large city that's crowded and I do spend a lot of time in my car.  Summer's are hot so people tend to stay out of the heat. Often waiting until the evening  until it's tolerable to go out, has to be balanced with safety and good sense in mind. I live in a fairly decent area, but crime has gone up in my neighborhood. I don't live in fear, but a good many people in my city who can't choose where they live no doubt do. 

If I lived in a smaller town in America, I def wouldn't feel that way, but since moving isn't an option because I work in the energy industry. And, I'm not naive enough to believe Europe is some sort of a utopia where nothing bad ever happens, but they just seem to have a better quality of life in some regards,

[Albanyguy]

19 hours ago, Wellfleet said:

Spot-on correct. There's no mistaking, IMO, that Me-chelle views Josie in this [twisted] way.

"It's the Chanel of babies!" - Edina Monsoon

[NewDigs]

^^^ absolutely fabulous!

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

"It's the Chanel of babies!" - Edina Monsoon

Spot on correct, and AbFab!

Of course, Edina saw Saffron's bi-racial daughter as the ultimate fashion accessory, rather than taking an interest in her granddaughter. On that note, I hope Boob gets more than a few biracial grandkids...it would finally show folks that they're opening their mind a bit.

Certainly, you couldn't begrudge MeChelle a new accessory, since she wore out her uterus...I mean handbag... I mean uterus....You know she wears Josie like an accessory, but that's pretty much the only decent thing she wears, given her already well documented appalling fashion choices!

[Arwen Evenstar]

Chops to whoever posted Jill's "artwork " as her painting-the-ppd-away series. 

Though PPD is no laughing matter, it wouldn't surprise me if that's a large part of what's eating Jilly. She was still recovering from her own botched delivery b/c her Caesarean was about 48 hours too late. While she was healing from the birth, the scandal breaks and she has to relive her molestation, moves away quickly...new environment....She didn't seek qualified help then, so why would she do that now? But I hope for her sake that she does. 

Nurses, docs, and therapists on the board, is a year after a birth too late to present with PPD? I would think since she's not addressed it or ignored it for so long, it's not impossible that's the case.

[Jynnan tonnix]

What is Jill even painting with in that photo? Looks like a little strip of color-infused paper/thin board. Like maybe a paint sample of some sort? I mean, her painting skills appear rudimentary at best, but materials like that certainly wouldn't help. Of course, one of my big pet peeves is those plasticky "paint brushes" that come with children's watercolor sets. I think even a professional artist would be hard-pressed to produce anything decent with those, let alone a child. Paintbrushes of reasonable quality can be found very cheaply, so why foist one of those monstrosities on a kid who is just learning that sort of hand-eye coordination in the first place?

[Ljohnson1987]

If Jill is so miserable, quit the fake mission work, and get a real job.

[kokapetl]

55 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

What is Jill even painting with in that photo? Looks like a little strip of color-infused paper/thin board. Like maybe a paint sample of some sort? I mean, her painting skills appear rudimentary at best, but materials like that certainly wouldn't help. Of course, one of my big pet peeves is those plasticky "paint brushes" that come with children's watercolor sets. I think even a professional artist would be hard-pressed to produce anything decent with those, let alone a child. Paintbrushes of reasonable quality can be found very cheaply, so why foist one of those monstrosities on a kid who is just learning that sort of hand-eye coordination in the first place?

It looks like a chunky French fry. 

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

If Jill is so miserable, quit the fake mission work, and get a real job.

She would first have to be aware that her feelings aren't normal and then she would probably have Derick telling her she had to pray more. These people don't get jobs. Unless the JimBoob business shenanigans count. 

[NewDigs]

1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

What is Jill even painting with in that photo? Looks like a little strip of color-infused paper/thin board. Like maybe a paint sample of some sort? I mean, her painting skills appear rudimentary at best, but materials like that certainly wouldn't help. Of course, one of my big pet peeves is those plasticky "paint brushes" that come with children's watercolor sets. I think even a professional artist would be hard-pressed to produce anything decent with those, let alone a child. Paintbrushes of reasonable quality can be found very cheaply, so why foist one of those monstrosities on a kid who is just learning that sort of hand-eye coordination in the first place?

I had  assumed it was a piece of chalk or a chunky crayon but on closer inspection it looks like something that might come with Cracker Jacks. The kind of "prize" that makes you groan.

If that's what they're handing out to the kids they're supposed to be serving then they should just pack up and go home. And take their Dum-Dums with them. Plenty of money for candy...