Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[JenCarroll]

Starfire, catch of the week or more!

 

This says so much.  No wonder he lost.  Did he know where Afghanistan was?

Triple exclamation points on your position statements are so professional!!!

;-)

[Aja]

Another huge problem I have with this whole movement is the infallibility crap. Does the Huckabee-led mob of excuse spelunkers realize that they do not HAVE to condone child molestation? It seems like the apologists think that they simply have to accept absolutely everything that everyone in their wacky cult does. You don't! You can say "Wow, had no idea Josh was that icky, but now I do and my opinion has shifted on the Duggar family." How would that weaken your faith? How would that weaken your movement? Doesn't seem like they have much faith in their own convictions. The very clear message I am receiving is that you can literally fondle your own sisters and it's all good as long as you profess to love Jesus and hate gays. Terrifying.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Aja

[starfire]

silversage, on 26 May 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

I'm trying to keep up with all the reading so I apologize if this has been said before. I wonder if the victim who asked for the police records to be destroyed was forced to do that.

 

I have a strong feeling it was a request made by the parents on the minor's behalf...

 

I read that the Springdale police spokesperson said that these type records are normally kept indefinitely.  I also read that the judge who ordered them destroyed has strong ties to Duggar supporter Mike Huckabee (he has appointed her to serve on various committees).

[ghoulina]

3.they were forced to live with their molester, never knowing if he would invade their bodies again.

 

This right here is the one that really breaks my heart. As I mentioned many posts earlier, my abuser (older stepbrother) didn't live in our home anymore after it was discovered. He did come visit, but never overnight and we were never alone together. However, those scars stay with you. Any time I spent the night somewhere where there was an older male - a friend's dad or brother, even my own grandpa! - I would lay awake terrified of that door opening, and someone coming in. I cannot imagine those girls having to endure something like that on a nightly basis. I always kind of had disdain for the big, communal bedroom, no one having their own space. But now I kind of like the idea of all the girls being together and maybe being able to protect each other. But no matter how protected you actually are, your mind still goes there. I wish these girls would get some counseling in the hear and now, they have to be carrying around so much turmoil inside of them. 

[merylinkid]

There's not a lot of new info since the story broke.   We don't know what kind of counseling the kids got or from whom.   We don't know if the girls were forced to forgive Josh on their own or felt they HAD to because of their religion.   We definitely don't know if Josh is a continuing threat or not.   We can rehash the same news over and over again but not much new is going to come out.

 

I will say I always thought the "sin in the camp" was a lot like Hitler's "Stab in the Back" for why Germany lost World War I.    Yeah I went there, Godwin's law.   JimBoob couldn't lose the election because he was an idiot and voters do usually a functioning brain.   He couldn't lose because his single issue extremism does not appeal to the average voter.   Nope he lost because someone committed sin and that caused God to turn his face away from JB and not propel him to the U.S. Senate he so richly deserved.   In other words "not my fault."    I still believe that.   Becuase honestly, how many Arkansas voters knew about Josh doing ANYTHING sexual at that time?    Darn few outside of the inner circles.   

 

Second, CPS might have been involved and the Duggars might have had to follow a plan.   But you can bet they went to court every few months and said the right things.   Brought in a few pieces of paper to show the girls were getting counseling (if it was mandated), and generally behaved like contrite parents just needing a little help.   I sincerely doubt that CPS which is horribly overworked bothered to check the credentials of whoever was doing the counseling or even if it was occuring.  They just don't have the resources to do it.   If it was a CPS manadated counselor, the girls could have been told to go in to the counseling say the right things and get it over with.   A counselor cannnot make someone be honest, if the person doesn't want to.   So the Duggars did what they had to do.   The case was closed, the court was no longer looking over their shoulder, and I am sure they went right back to whatever they were doing before.   Seen it happen all too many times.   Parents do what they gotta do to satisfy CPS, then do whatever they want once CPS is no longer involved.

 

Also on that subject, I notice the court did not mandate that the family stay off tv and stop preaching about how they were the perfect wonderful family.   That might have gotten through even more than any showing up in court every few months to talk to a judge did.

[andromeda331]

I'm trying to keep up with all the reading so I apologize if this has been said before. I wonder if the victim who asked for the police records to be destroyed was forced to do that.

 

 

I wonder this too. While they probably never wanted it to get out. I can't help but feel they were being forced to by their parents eager to have them destroyed to protect Josh, again.

[Bella]

This is not the comparative religion thread; let's not go there.

 

Thanks!

[Oldernowiser]

...JimBoob couldn't lose the election because he was an idiot and voters do usually a functioning brain. He couldn't lose because his single issue extremism does not appeal to the average voter. Nope he lost because someone committed sin and that propel him to the U.S. Senate he so richly deserved. In other words "not my fault." I still believe that. Becuase honestly, how many Arkansas voters knew about Josh doing ANYTHING sexual at that time? Darn few outside of the inner circles...

I think you're right, in their minds it wasn't the voters knowing about it, it was God knowing and punishing the sin/crime. At that point, they're pretty fucked...JB has pissed away what had to be a lifetime of savings, they have a zillion mouths to feed...so they semi-sorta deal with Josh's little hobby, at least by the Gothard School of Fondling Is No Big Deal Plus It's the Girls' Fault, and lo, the clouds part, and TLC comes calling with the big bucks. And then God keeps sending them parenting merit badges in the form of more babies. So obviously the Big Dude is cool with it and whatever we do, so let's bury that stuff deep and pile twenty feet of Denial and Ego on top of it...

Hell, I've seen it in my own family...if it reflects poorly on the family, IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Oldernowiser

[Morgalisa]

I too apologize if this has been mentioned upthread; it is extremely difficult to keep up in this thread.  Anyway, regarding the statute of limitations, there was an attorney on CNN last week (Danny Cevallos) who said the reason no charges could be brought against Josh is because by the time the investigation was completed, Josh was already 18 years old.  An adult person can not be held liable for crimes committed when they were a minor.  He seemed to imply that JimBob may have had knowledge of this and delayed, although I don't know how this attorney or anyone else would know that.

[NextIteration]

Anyway, regarding the statute of limitations, there was an attorney on CNN last week (Danny Cevallos) who said the reason no charges could be brought against Josh is because by the time the investigation was completed, Josh was already 18 years old.

 

Not a lawyer!  But, that makes much more sense then the sketchy use of the three year limitation.

[duggarshow]

If her dad knew EVERYTHING and still allowed her to marry the pervert, then he is absolutely more disgusting than JB and M. He, more than anyone, should have been looking out for her best interest, which was to NOT marry an incestuous pervert.

 

[snip] Josh realized he did something wrong, took ownership of his actions, confessed to his parents (who then took action) and repented. It's not as if he were caught in the act and forced to own up to it. When he was 14 years old. If every teenage mistake - big or small - were held against any of us for the rest of our lives, the world would be a pretty miserable place. I think it's great that Josh told Anna and her parents two years before there was a courtship/engagement/marriage. I think it's admirable that Anna is standing by her husbands side.

 

As many of you have, I've emailed and snail mailed TLC. In my case, though, I've asked them to reconsider cancelling this show. I'd like to see it stay on the air. If television only aired things I agreed with sponsored by companies whose political stances I agreed with - there wouldn't be anything at all on. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rhondinella
starting post with "um"

[JoanArc]

 

If every teenage mistake - big or small - were held against any of us for the rest of our lives, the world would be a pretty miserable place.

There are few crimes more heinous than what Josh did. I believe it is OK to hold some things against people.

[CherryAmes]

[snip] Josh realized he did something wrong, took ownership of his actions, confessed to his parents (who then took action) and repented.

 

My understanding of what happened is that he repeated his actions over the course of at least a year and some of this was even after his parents had been informed of what he was doing.  If he confessed it was only after he was caught. Good for him if he actually genuinely has repented but from everything I've been reading about his subsequent actions (calling one of his sisters a snitch as an example) I'm not optimistic.

[Boton]

Here's what I'm struggling with:  Josh Duggar (and the whole family) is getting a bunch of much-deserved blow-back on this situation.  What he did was reprehensible, and we probably will never know all the details.  I'm not even sure I want to know.

 

But, how can a person ever come back from this kind of thing?  Without excusing or minimizing the impact of his actions, he apparently did this at the age of 14.  Can he ever demonstrate enough public remorse to be allowed to get on with his life in some way? Should he have never married, never had kids, or never tried to have a job linked to his faith?  Even stipulating that there are some options for his life that he foreclosed upon with his actions, is there ever anything he can do to be allowed to be a productive adult?  

 

I'm not trying to defend him or his actions, but I am trying to understand how to think about the idea that any actions taken or remorse shown aren't enough.  Can anything ever be enough?

[alt0233]

As part of the "how much did Anna know" discussion - it's worth mentioning that if he did tell her the whole thing, the victims were probably part of the conversation at some point. If they said he'd changed, he was better, they'd forgiven him, he'd make a good husband and father, etc - that could have gone a long way to mollify her concerns. And I'm guessing if asked that's what they'd say, whether or not they believed it.

[BitterApple]

I think it's easier to condemn when you're on the outside looking in. If Josh was your son would you want his life permanently destroyed because he committed heinous acts when he was 14? Would you shun him and demand he be thrown in prison? I concede that they should have had Josh in a real treatment program and removed him from the home while they tended to the girls, but I can't fault JimBob and Michelle for not writing him off as a lost cause.

[merylinkid]

Sorry but that lawyer did not know what he was talking about.   If that were true, no crime committed at 17 could be prosecuted if the kid turn 18 during the investigation.   I have heard from an Arkansas attorney.   In Arkansas, all crimes -- except A felonies, which this was not -- have a 3 year statute of limitations.   Period.   That means, you must bring charges in that time or you are S.O.L.    That is lawyering 101.   We all know this.   

 

As for the remark upthread about chaning the law for brigning charges after the victim turns 18, that is for civil charges.   Criminal charges, which is what this is, usually has a set time limit that is only tolled (extended) under certain circumstances.    Age of the victim is not usually one of them.   Civil charges when the kid can sue on his/her own, usually extends the statute of limitations for a time period after 18 years.   The extension is the equivalent of what the SOL would have been in the first place.   For instance, if you must bring a civil case within 4 years of the incident, then the child has until age 21 to bring the case on his/her own.   Sadly, this means the older girls, even if they were to break free, cannot sue Josh for damages.   It's too late.

[CherryAmes]

I'm not trying to defend him or his actions, but I am trying to understand how to think about the idea that any actions taken or remorse shown aren't enough.  Can anything ever be enough?

 

I don't think there would be this much anger against Josh, the adult, had he not hitched his star to an organization that has spread hatred and lies about the gay community - including accusations that they are going to molest children given any opportunity.  Most of us dislike hypocrisy.

Edited May 26, 2015 by CherryAmes

[Aja]

[snip] Molesting your sisters isn't a teenaged oopsie. It is indicative of a serious mental problem for which he needs help. The absolute worst message you can send to someone as sick as Josh Duggar is "we totally get it! You were fourteen! I made mistakes when I was fourteen too!" That feeds his sense of power and control, feeds his sense of being victimized by heathens. He didn't make a mistake. He demonstrated a sociopathic and cold-blooded thirst for power and control that STARTED with what he did to his sisters and escalated and escalated until he clearly felt no internal conflict about referring to Jill as a snitch, joking about incest, and accepting a job in which the JOB DESCRIPTION is to yell and scream about how transgender people are a threat to children. No self-awareness whatsoever. Extremely dangerous. And this is just what we have SEEN, just what we know actually happened!

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rhondinella
first sentence possibly inflammatory

[JoanArc]

I think it's easier to condemn when you're on the outside looking in. If Josh was your son would you want his life permanently destroyed because he committed heinous acts when he was 14? Would you shun him and demand he be thrown in prison? I concede that they should have had Josh in a real treatment program and removed him from the home while they tended to the girls, but I can't fault JimBob and Michelle for not writing him off as a lost cause.

 

I see you point, and I don't believe that Josh should've been vaporized from their lives, but Michelle and Jim Bob became accessories to the abuse (and mental distress of the victims) once he was allowed back into the home unsupervised, and unreformed. That's like finding out your son was robbing a bank, wagging your finger at him, then helping hold the door and load up his car with the loot.

 

They chose one son over four daughters. Sorry to make it a numbers game, but there it is. And yes, the fifth victim, too.

[3 is enough]

 

[snip] Josh realized he did something wrong, took ownership of his actions, confessed to his parents (who then took action) and repented. It's not as if he were caught in the act and forced to own up to it. When he was 14 years old. If every teenage mistake - big or small - were held against any of us for the rest of our lives, the world would be a pretty miserable place. I think it's great that Josh told Anna and her parents two years before there was a courtship/engagement/marriage. I think it's admirable that Anna is standing by her husbands 

 

It was only a "mistake" the first time. After that it became A CHOICE.  The fact that he continued to "make mistakes" after being caught means he did NOT, in fact, repent. Not only that, but the "mistakes" got bolder with time- first he touched sleeping girls, then did it during the day when they were awake, and the girls he touched got progressively younger.

 

My son-in-law is a psychiatrist.  I asked him about cases like this, and he shook his head and said that most often the behaviours escalate with time.  Also, there are very few cases where the patient is "cured".

 

This was not just a "mistake", it was a criminal act. And I strongly suspect the only reason Josh was "sorry" is because he got caught.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rhondinella

[juneday]

I don't think there would be this much anger against Josh, the adult, had he not hitched his star to an organization that has spread hatred and lies about the gay community - including accusations that they are going to molest children given any opportunity.  Most of us dislike hypocrisy.

Yes. I also think had the Duggars not tried to cover this up for years and had they not tried to act like the perfect, model family that everyone should look up to there would be more sympathy for Josh. As well as if he had shown more of a sign that he is remorseful and regretful for what he did. No one wants a person's life to be ruined because of mistakes they make as a teen, and I know teenagers mess up and make mistakes, but IMHO this goes beyond just a normal teen mistake like making a bad grade or sneaking into an R rated movie or something. Those are "normal" mistakes that don't really hurt anyone but yourself-this isn't.

[bluebonnet]

Here's what I'm struggling with:  Josh Duggar (and the whole family) is getting a bunch of much-deserved blow-back on this situation.  What he did was reprehensible, and we probably will never know all the details.  I'm not even sure I want to know.

 

But, how can a person ever come back from this kind of thing?  Without excusing or minimizing the impact of his actions, he apparently did this at the age of 14.  Can he ever demonstrate enough public remorse to be allowed to get on with his life in some way? Should he have never married, never had kids, or never tried to have a job linked to his faith?  Even stipulating that there are some options for his life that he foreclosed upon with his actions, is there ever anything he can do to be allowed to be a productive adult?  

 

I'm not trying to defend him or his actions, but I am trying to understand how to think about the idea that any actions taken or remorse shown aren't enough.  Can anything ever be enough?

Things happen on a case-by-case basis.  Often, no, it can't be enough.  There are certain types of desires that don't just go away and the offender must need to create different goals for his or her life.  That means no children, no working with children, etc.  

 

There are two issues with Josh.  He is blatantly unrepentant and his entire adult life has been a mission of hatred and hypocrisy.  His apology was a non-apology, and it was all about him him him.  Worse, he and his entire family acted as though these very serious charges were just bad teenage mistakes.  No, they are serious crimes.  Furthermore, he and his family wield great influence, time they like to spend telling people that they should be just like the Duggar cult because everyone else are a bunch of child predators.

 

So for Josh, no, he has no shown any behavior that indicates he has changed since he committed his crimes.  He can't come back from it at all, not in my eyes.  

[Slugabug Foster]

If the fundie men supposedly have no self-control, are constantly at risk for succumbing to temptation, and aren't expected to take any responsibility for their actions, it seems asinine that the fundie women should look to them as "leaders" and headships. Why follow someone so weak?

Edited May 26, 2015 by Slugabug Foster

[Julia]

I think there's a big difference between

Josh's life being ruined by a single mistake and his being barred from working in his faith

and

Josh taking a position as the executive director of an issue advocacy organization which, among other things, lobbies against entire classes of citizens being able to have families because their orientation makes them more likely to be sexual predators. Like Josh. And his spiritual advisor. And his spiritual advisor's brother. And their family friend the cop.

I also think that taking the word of any serial sex offender who doesn't even claim to have attempted to get professional counseling after he repeatedly reoffended that he's "cured" is a very, very bad idea, statistically speaking.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Julia

[bencr]

 

 

For me, the million dollar question is this: Given a horrible and painful incident involving several of their children, did the Duggars' faith and convictions lead them down a path that was (a) best for their children and (b) consistent with their stated values regarding sexual mores? And if the answer to one or both of these is no -- as I believe it is -- I have to question whether the Duggars deserve a platform that lets them showcase their values and lifestyle to a viewing audience.

 

And let me just add, when I say "best for the children", I'm not implying there's a perfect solution to this problem. But I am saying that if the Duggars did what they thought was best for their kids -- and I think they probably did -- then I think their values were very wrongheaded, and they do not warrant being showcased on TV.

Edited May 26, 2015 by bencr

[duggarshow]

I believe it is OK to hold some things against people.

 

As do I. But not forever. Josh was a child, too. at the time. He was only 14 years old. You've made mistakes before, I'm sure. Lord knows I have. I'm glad I can forgive and grateful that I can be forgiven.

[bluebonnet]

As do I. But not forever. Josh was a child, too. at the time. He was only 14 years old. You've made mistakes before, I'm sure. Lord knows I have. I'm glad I can forgive and grateful that I can be forgiven.

Mistakes =/= Serious Crimes

[Dawn16]

I don't think there would be this much anger against Josh, the adult, had he not hitched his star to an organization that has spread hatred and lies about the gay community - including accusations that they are going to molest children given any opportunity.  Most of us dislike hypocrisy.

I personally would have just as much anger toward him and his parents if they had never said a word on that issue.  I don't want his supporters to believe that it's all about liberals taking down a soldier of God fighting against homosexual sin.  It is certainly not for me.  A lot my anger does stem from his arrogance (daring to joke about incest being just one example), his parents lack of concern for their daughters' well-being by putting them on national television and forcing them to act sweet, and their constantly repeated beliefs about temptation and defrauding. 

[CherryAmes]

It's not up to me to forgive Josh Duggar.  Forgiveness is not the issue.  He committed a crime, multiple times - he did not make mistakes.  In our society, generally, even minors are expected to pay for those crimes to some degree or another even if that payment only comes down to getting treatment and appropriate follow up.  This was not done for Josh Duggar and for that it is not unreasonable to question the way things were handled both by the parents and by those in the community who were made aware of his crimes.

[Aja]

At fourteen I knew that incest was disgusting and wrong. We are biologically hard-wired not to be sexually attracted to siblings for a  reason. When someone is, it means something has gone very, very wrong inside their head. And early adolescence is when these kinds of mental problems start manifesting.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Aja

[NextIteration]

As do I. But not forever. Josh was a child, too. at the time. He was only 14 years old. You've made mistakes before, I'm sure. Lord knows I have. I'm glad I can forgive and grateful that I can be forgiven.

 

For most of us and our value and belief systems, Josh did not make a "mistake", Josh committed a crime, serially, again and again and did not stop - until someone told on him, bringing it to the attention of his parents.

 

Exacerbating all that, his parents failed to act in the proper manner and went about trying to hide what happened, instead of going directly to Child Protection for proper assistance in the matter, further exposing Josh's victims to shame, trauma and guilt.

 

Finally, after all of this, Josh and his parents had the gall to spew hate at others, accusing people for no reason of being child predators.

[Aw my lahgs]

As do I. But not forever. Josh was a child, too. at the time. He was only 14 years old. You've made mistakes before, I'm sure. Lord knows I have. I'm glad I can forgive and grateful that I can be forgiven.

 

Of course we have. We all have made mistake, dumb, stupid mistakes.... However, what Josh did was not a mistake!! 

He committed a 4th degree felony! He's a child molester.. Not a teen who did a dumb thing... He committed a crime, multiple times!

[Jamiesmum]

His victims were, as far as the reports and data about the family can be interpreted, potentially between the ages of 5 and 12. Isn't THAT enough? Blood relationships have nothing to do with the horror of what he did.

(I'm uncomfortable with the idea that somehow it's "more" horrible because it's incest. He molested young girls who were not capable of consent. That is ENOUGH. His relationship to them is beside the point to me.)

He molested girls who had to see him on a daily basis, who did not know if or when another occurrence may take place. And they had to serve him and be joyful about it. They had no respite from their abuser. He was across the table at home school. He was in the next chair while watching TV. He was behind them at home church. There was no escape. Horrible as it is for any molested child, one who does not live with their abuser has an opportunity to have a break from the absolute awfulness even for a short period of time. They live in fear, yes, but not the fear that putting on a load of washing is cause for an attack. Or that story time with the family is fraught with danger. His relationship is very much the point. His relationship put him in a position of unceasing power over them. And his nasty comments over the years reveal that he was comfortable enough to believe he still maintained that power.

Edited to remove double posting.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Jamiesmum

[JenCarroll]

 

There are two issues with Josh.  He is blatantly unrepentant and his entire adult life has been a mission of hatred and hypocrisy.  His apology was a non-apology, and it was all about him him him.  Worse, he and his entire family acted as though these very serious charges were just bad teenage mistakes.  No, they are serious crimes.  Furthermore, he and his family wield great influence, time they like to spend telling people that they should be just like the Duggar cult because everyone else are a bunch of child predators.

This. Exactly this.

[Julia]

As do I. But not forever. Josh was a child, too. at the time. He was only 14 years old. You've made mistakes before, I'm sure. Lord knows I have. I'm glad I can forgive and grateful that I can be forgiven.

Forgiveness is between Josh and his victims, and Josh and God. Consequences, on the other hand, have to do with the larger society, which has laws, if you're not so fortunately situated as to be able to flout them with impunity due to your family connections.

Bluntly, I don't think forgiveness is for us to give. We weren't the injured party. Sympathy? Sure. Even empathy if you're so inclined. Not forgiveness. But even if someone is spiritually confident enough to feel that they can forgive in place of God and the victims, there's a path for reentering society as someone who's shown themselves to be a predator, and Josh chose not to take it.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Julia

[CarolMK]

I've seen some posts about the possibility of the show continuing without Josh and Anna. I was thinking about how Jon and Kate plus 8 was changed to Kate plus 8 once Jon and Kate got divorced. Overall, it didn't do nearly as well as the original show but they still seem to have at least a few shows per year. The show went on hiatus for about 3 years between 2011 and 2014 when it returned. Maybe TLC will bring back something along the line of "Duggar Daughters". It will be difficult if not impossible to show the younger Duggar siblings without the parents though. Public opinion of Josh is very negative now, but I'm not sure if as many people blame Jim Bob and Michelle for what happened. Personally, I do hold them responsible and I wouldn't like to see them getting paid again for a 19 Kids and Counting show. Jana and Jinger, living in the Duggar household, probably would not be able to participate either even though both are over the age of 18. It's a mess all around and I don't know if TLC can come up with a solution other than cancellation or just doing a couple of specials with Jessa and Jill's families. 

[bluebonnet]

I don't want to see any Duggar show, not unless it's a show about how they left the Gothard fundy cult.  

[Aethera]

Folks, another reminder not to speculate about whether others in the family may have been abusers, including the parents.  We will continue to edit out or hide those speculations.  If part of your posts disappears, that could be why.

 

Things are getting heated again, regarding the "is it a mistake and why can't you forgive it" idea - let's remember not to pile on those with whom we disagree.  Stay respectful, please!

 

 

[Julia]

I don't want his supporters to believe that it's all about liberals taking down a soldier of God fighting against homosexual sin.

For me, the relevance of that particular advocacy is that Josh believes we need national legislation to keep people who he believes are predisposed to sexual predation away from children, and that (entirely imaginary) predisposition should affect their ability to hold jobs, have families and choose where to live.

The person in this conversation who is most insistent that someone like Josh should be kept from public life is Josh.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Julia

[Aja]

 

As do I. But not forever. Josh was a child, too. at the time. He was only 14 years old. You've made mistakes before, I'm sure. Lord knows I have. I'm glad I can forgive and grateful that I can be forgiven.

I think that, at least for me, it goes way beyond the scandal that has just come out. Many of us on here have been following the Duggars and expressing concern about the harm their beliefs are causing since the early specials. Many of us have been looking past the shiny People magazine covers for many years. But, for all of our speculation, all of our misgivings, all of the things that the Duggars have done over the years that we have disagreed with, none of us were really expecting anything this awful. Personally, up until a week ago, the situation the Duggar girls are in has always made my heart heavy and made me feel helpless as I watched these bright, sweet girls being browbeaten and brainwashed into fundie baby-zombies. That's how I've always seen it. Therefore, the scandal, for me, has only confirmed the darkest, deepest fears I had for the females in that family. It's worse than we realized, and a lot of us feel deeply personal about it. The facts of the scandal on their own are enough to turn anyone's stomach. But coupled with the oppression and abuse the girls have been suffering for years, live on TV, it's almost too much.

[Cherrio]

The question I am asking this morning is:     Who will be the first one to sell out?     Or leave or both.

 I am not attaching a negative to selling out in this case because I do not think that any of the Duggars have any other way to support themselves.  Only a few have a GED if I am not mistaken?

 They have been brought up with beliefs that would make it very difficult to function in the real world. I would not count Josh's job and life as functioning the real world considering who he was working for.

           If the Kellers have one brain cell among them, I would hope they would get Anna and the kids and head for Oprah's.   Many have stated she has no place to go, but unlike so many who only have shelters as an option, Anna I am sure would be offered countless invitations.  Some with a price attached, some without.

[Literata]

The Today Show speculated this morning that TLC might decide to continue the series under the guise of "showing REAL reality TV -- how a family handles a crisis of a monumental nature." But I really don't think that will fly with the viewing public, or with advertisers.

 

If the show were to follow Smuggar as he sought professional help, maybe that would be of interest ... but IMO, that's never going to happen, given that any therapist worth his or her salt would want to treat him in a way that would fly in the face of all the patriarchal nonsense.

 

I've seen some posts about the possibility of the show continuing without Josh and Anna. I was thinking about how Jon and Kate plus 8 was changed to Kate plus 8 once Jon and Kate got divorced. Overall, it didn't do nearly as well as the original show but they still seem to have at least a few shows per year. The show went on hiatus for about 3 years between 2011 and 2014 when it returned. Maybe TLC will bring back something along the line of "Duggar Daughters". It will be difficult if not impossible to show the younger Duggar siblings without the parents though. Public opinion of Josh is very negative now, but I'm not sure if as many people blame Jim Bob and Michelle for what happened. Personally, I do hold them responsible and I wouldn't like to see them getting paid again for a 19 Kids and Counting show. Jana and Jinger, living in the Duggar household, probably would not be able to participate either even though both are over the age of 18. It's a mess all around and I don't know if TLC can come up with a solution other than cancellation or just doing a couple of specials with Jessa and Jill's families.

 

This all makes sense, but seems awfully complicated. Given the family makeup, I think it's going to have to be all or nothing, or all but the Smuggars.

[JenCarroll]

I would guess that right now, Jim Bob is plotting strategies for how to bring in money. One possibility is to set some of the girls up to do interviews where they explain that kids make mistakes, all is forgiven, they're long since healed, etc. The problem with that is the follow-up questions and not being able to predict whether the girls hold it together. Maybe some of the Christian broadcasters? They could wax on about the power of forgiveness and not being your own victim, and if they cry it can all be attributed to their overwhelming love for the lord. Thoughts? Will interviewers continue to accept the "pre-approved questions only" rule? (This is, of course, only my guess about one angle that could be under discussion, nothing more.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by JenCarroll

[kathe5133]

What about TLC?  Somebody took the time to send a letter to Oprah, which the Oprah people turned over to the police.  "Alice" has been quite vocal on message boards.  And there is the mystery someone who the lent a book to which contained some sort of incriminating letter.  Where was TLC in all this?  The person who contacted Oprah didn't try to contact TLC?  "Alice", who appears to be quite computer savvy couldn't get an email through?  I think TLC knew about this all along.  I honestly don't know how I feel about that. 

[dillpickles]

The question I am asking this morning is: Who will be the first one to sell out? Or leave or both.

I am not attaching a negative to selling out in this case because I do not think that any of the Duggars have any other way to support themselves. Only a few have a GED if I am not mistaken?

I think all of the older ones have A GED. Jessa might be the only one with a HS diploma, though.

[Literata]

The question I am asking this morning is: Who will be the first one to sell out? Or leave or both.

 

I think we can hope until the cows come home, but it's not going to happen.

 

I'm sure that now, even more than before, the kids' heads are being filled with "We're being attacked because of our faith" nonsense. Boob and MEchelle are going to work even harder to convince them that this crisis wasn't a result of Smuggar's actions, but of some vast left-wing conspiracy. And this undoubtedly is bringing up all kinds of horrible stuff for the girls, who will likely retreat into what they know best -- hearth and home -- to process it as best they can and to try to find comfort.

 

I really don't think any of them will see this as an opportunity to make a change. They're just not equipped to deal with anything like this.

[Adiba]

I personally would have just as much anger toward him and his parents if they had never said a word on that issue.  I don't want his supporters to believe that it's all about liberals taking down a soldier of God fighting against homosexual sin.  It is certainly not for me.  A lot my anger does stem from his arrogance (daring to joke about incest being just one example), his parents lack of concern for their daughters' well-being by putting them on national television and forcing them to act sweet, and their constantly repeated beliefs about temptation and defrauding.

I agree with this idea of separating the crime from the politics/ religion/ ideology of the perpetrator and his family. As galling as the hypocrisy is, it does not affect the seriousness of the act.

However, the fact that Josh was raised in such a patriarchal/legalistic cult may have affected the choices he made and his inability to control his deviant urges--coupled by the likelihood that he never received professional help after he acted on those urges--resulted in the "perfect storm", as a previous poster stated. That is where my mixed feelings come in--disgust at the crime, empathy for the victims, and a small bit of compassion for the perpetrator.I have to add that any small amount of compassion for Josh would shrink or disappear if more allegations come out that he has continued to reoffend into his adult years.

Now, saying all that-- would I trust him around children unsupervised? No. I also think the show should be canceled. Finally, I think that he should not hold public office.

[NextIteration]

The Today Show speculated this morning that TLC might decide to continue the series under the guise of "showing REAL reality TV -- how a family handles a crisis of a monumental nature." But I really don't think that will fly with the viewing public, or with advertisers.

 

Was it a Tamron Hall segment?  She just did one on her MSNBC show with Stephanie Marcus from the Huffington Post.  The speculation about a "real" reality show there was based on the (imho ill-concieved) WaPo OpEd from Friday.  Of note, Stephanie Marcus could barely sputter her words out she's so incensed about the situation and the victims and the audacity of Josh and his parents politically.  Essentially insinuating that Josh belongs in jail.

[IndianPaintbrush]

I'm not trying to defend him or his actions, but I am trying to understand how to think about the idea that any actions taken or remorse shown aren't enough.  Can anything ever be enough?

This is a really good question and it's one I've struggled with all weekend.  Nothing can be done about the statute of limitations, but there are some things I'd like to see happen.

 

The first step? No more television cameras and magazine covers.  The gravy train stops immediately and stays that way for a loooong time.  Then, Josh and the victims need to start counseling from licensed professionals who specialize in this kind of treatment, who do not blame victims, and who have never been associated with Gothard.  Finally, the Duggars stop publicly characterizing homosexuals and transgenders as child predators and sexual deviants.  They are free to believe whatever they want in private, but I do not want to hear their hypocritical, bigoted bullshit in robocalls and social media postings.

 

I don't believe any of those will happen.

Edited May 26, 2015 by IndianPaintbrush