Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[CountryGirl]

I posted my thoughts about Derek in the courtroom in his/Jill's thread but will share them here. 

My understanding is that there is one family section in the courtroom and that Derek was sitting there, alone, when Anna came up to him. While I am sure he hates SexPest with the fire of a thousand suns, I would be willing to believe he views Anna as another victim. As far as the interaction with Josh, what was he supposed to do? Hit him or yell at him? That is not going to happen because if he made any sort of scene, he could jeopardize being in that courtroom for his wife when she testifies. There have even been occasions where outbursts in the gallery have been grounds for a mistrial as they can be seen as being influential or even prejudicial on the jury. 

I'm not reading anything into his brief interaction with SexPest either for the same reasons and we have all had occasions in our own lives where we've been cordial with individuals, problematic family members included, wanting to avoid a scene. 

Derek's number one reason for being there is to support his wife and he's going to conduct himself with that goal in mind. 

He was also seen talking briefly to SexPest's defense team and I highly doubt that was so he could lend them his newly-acquired knowledge but to get a little bit of a feel for them.

He also put his head down when they were showing the obviously graphic CSAM and I can only imagine that he was thinking of Jill as a little girl and the abuse she suffered.

I think Derek went to get the lay of the land ahead of time so even if he is not at liberty to discuss anything with Jill since she is a witness, he's not going in cold and has some time to process the obviously horrific proceedings so he can put on a supportive front for Jill. 

12 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

OfBooks is too busy folding pocket squares to read.  But I'm sure there's a copy of the report next to all those fancy books he's never opened.

JereME must be livid over The Sun's description of Derek as "dapper" yesterday.

I can see him gnashing his teeth, screeching to Jinger, Felicity, and Evie "I'M the DAPPER one!"

[hathorlive]

10 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes Tor was on the computer. It was how the CSAM was accessed. 

I am not sure this is right.  I will need to hear the forensic testimony and read the transcript before I trust anyone's recap of the evidence.  Here's the thing.  TOR is an onion router.  You use it to brose the internet, get on the dark web, and do internet things.  From what I read (and trust me, I get confused at times) he used BitTorrent to download some of the files and TOR to download other files.  BitTorrent COULD run through TOR, but the speed would be horrible for downloading.  BitTorrent does run on all OS's, including Linux.  So I'm not sure if the recap we've read have been totally clear on what was downloaded where.  The things they showed in court are def CP but aren't the horrific DD type stuff.  I would assume (taking all the risks with guessing) that the things shown in court came from BitTorrent and not the dark web.  At the end of the day, I don't care where he got it.  It's all illegal. But BitTorrent is a lot more accessible to people than the dark web. I don't trust recaps because I've had my own words mangled so badly in newspaper articles that I don't trust anything but the actual words the forensic people use.  

[Panopticon]

10 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

JereME must be livid over The Sun's description of Derek as "dapper" yesterday.

I can see him gnashing his teeth, screeching to Jinger, Felicity, and Evie "I'M the DAPPER one!"

Obviously nothing about this situation is funny.

But if something about it WERE going to be funny, it would be Jeremy suddenly showing up in court wearing a fancier suit than Derick’s. 

[SMama]

51 minutes ago, lilwhitelion said:

I wanted to quote from the Redditor's long recap to show that they said it was Derick and 
Anna holding hands when coming back from a break, but they have removed their post.  In any case, that's why it was so weird.  Josh and Anna holding hands is expected.

The Redditor stated a few times that the proceedings were fast paced and he/she couldn’t catch up at times. Understandable that there will be typos and confusion.

[GeeGolly]

There were numbers posted at one point, when the judge thought he might need to restrict the number of seats for the media. Something like 10 seats reserved for each side, which left somewhere around 20(?) seats for the media/general public.

Would all the husbands get the same benefit of doubt that Derick's getting? I mean I'm a pro at avoiding folks in the real world. My husband is one that likes to charge over and say hi, but I'll use a clothing rack, my cell phone and whatever others means available to avoid a casual contact when I'm on a mission.

I'm still left with a lot of questions about Derick's encounters yesterday.

[hathorlive]

10 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

but then also has an open router so anyone, including the defenses "creepy guy from McDonald's" can hack into it and of course the computer password is "Joshua"

Is he too stupid to know things, or does he care enough to use TOR - the dark web for "protection from paparazzi" or is he-- back to stupid for not password protecting his wifi... I do see the defenses problem - Josh is a walking contradiction. I really want to be in on some of the defense teams brainstorming sessions.

Prosecutors should honestly interview all those people Josh did rehab with for his porn addiction. I'm sure they shared all sorts of tips with each other.

I know nothing but if TOR is supposed to scramble IP addresses maybe there is some sort of reason you don't want to password protect your wifi?

I hope I'm not getting too obnoxious here with my examples and stuff.  

So the first thing we do on onsite, after kicking in the door and securing the people, is to check for open Wi-Fi.  If the router is password protected, we note that.  If there's an open guest account, we note that.  If the system is locked down like Fort Knox, we note that.   I'm not claiming that every Fed LE follows these rules, but these are our best practice, for this exact reason.  So all HSI has to say is, no we checked that and there was no open xyz. 

TOR doesn't scramble IP addresses.  TOR simply encrypts your data through several servers or relays and that encryption tends to obscure or hide your IP. It is NOT fail proof.  The feds actually found a way to exploit something in TOR a few years ago that unmasked your IP address.  If you use TOR over VPN, then that's pretty fail proof.  Any time you use multiple methods of privacy, you protect yourself.  It's like using a condom AND being on the pill.  If Josh had used Duck duck go, a VPN AND TOR, that would pretty much do the job.  But each of these tools alone has some flaws and some chance of showing your IP address.  If you really want to add more security, do a double proxy jump.  If you go through a Proxy server and then go to another Proxy server, my chances of figuring out who you are or where you want is non-existent.  TOR is used to maintain anonymity, VPN's are there to protect privacy.  That sounds like the same thing but its different in the computer world.

[MsJamieDornan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BNVrTKKPjY

2:44 He talks a bit about Josh.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

11 minutes ago, Panopticon said:

Obviously nothing about this situation is funny.

But if something about it WERE going to be funny, it would be Jeremy suddenly showing up in court wearing a fancier suit than Derick’s. 

That reminds me of the old episode of The Donie Gillis Show where Dobie and Milton  kept trying to outdress each to get Thalia’s attention. At one point Dobie came in with a walking stick that folded out into a seat.  I could totally see Jeremy trying something like that.  The aforementioned haberdashery starts at 14:39. 

 

[Zella]

48 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

When does the trial start today? I have to look for the time difference, it's 4pm here where I live...

I think the Smuggars will be less smug today, I hope

A local reporter posted a pretty in-depth article yesterday that said the judge wanted to start at 8:30 am today but had had a hard time with delays throughout the day yesterday. To the point, he repeatedly apologized to the jury over it. So, it is nearly 10 am here and in theory, they should have been into this for over an hour by now but maybe not. 

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

That's where my computer knowledge in relationship to the case stops. Like is TOR and Torrent the same thing?  I wouldn't know how to split a computer or access the web of darkness. If one side said yes, such and such can be done this way and the other side said no it can't, I wouldn't know who is right.

So far I feel like the defense is gearing up to confuse the jury with all things computer related. I'm guessing the jury has a few folks around my age who share my same lack of knowledge around computers.

And lastly, my kid who is the computer wizard didn't learn most of what he knows about computers in school. He actually has a different degree, but took some computer courses later on to qualify for certain jobs. So Josh being schooled at the dining room table means nothing.

TOR and torrents are not the same thing.  TOR is a browser.  You use it do normal and not so normal (dark web) internet things.  TOR was developed by the US Navy (I think) to help dissidents under authoritarian rule share information of a political nature without being outed. It allows you to not be tracked on the internet because your activity is sent through multiple servers that obscure your trail.

Torrents are part of a protocol of BitTorrent that allows files to be shared, typically through peer to peer networks.  Peer to Peer network means there is no "server" that holds data, that you are using a protocol to access other people's information from THEIR computer. The difference between Napster back in the day and later music sharing programs was that Napster had servers, and that meant they controlled the data and were liable for illegal downloading.  Modern Peer to Peers have no servers.  You are the server.  Torrent protocol just breaks up the file into pieces, so that when you download that segment, you are wearing out the person's bandwidth.  It's a DISTRIBUTED network.  

My issue with the defense saying the ICAC person didn't get a full file is....who cares? If I get a enough of a file that shows CP, it's still illegal.  No, it won't match the hash value that NCMEC has because every byte is not present, but it's still CP.  This is also what makes me think the files that Josh was charged with processing and that were shown in court, were not from TOR and the dark web, but rather from BitTorrent.  Because usually things you download on the dark web are not torrents, they are just files.   And while I guess you could use BitTorrent on TOR, it would be so painfully slow.

Think of TOR like flights with layovers versions direct flights.  TOR bounces data around multiple servers. You are flying to New York from LA but you land in Denver and Chicago along the way.  The dark web is a direct download.  Now, maybe there are torrents on dark web sites.  But we're splitting hairs there.  

BitTorrent activity is VERY artifact laden.  When you install a file sharing program, unknown to most, you allow the software to create a downloads folder and to share it.  Meaning that ANY ONE on the Internet can access that folder.  So when we examine a computer, that's the first place I go.  The partially downloaded files have certain extensions, the downloaded files have different extensions.  If you click on the file to watch it, there are Operating system artifacts that tell me you didn't just download it, you viewed it.  Sometimes I can figure out how many times you viewed. Going by what we've heard in earlier court hearings, they were squabbling over partially downloaded files, and not "having every segment".  That indicates, to me, that those files came from a file sharing program via BitTorrent and not via TOR. 

If that makes any sense?  There are ways to cut through the BS and explain who had access, motive, and opportunity.  Which one of the men the defense is demeaning has a demonstrated history of molesting girls this same age? If they want to say that someone used a USB drive, fine.  But the AUSA needs to say, what PID/VID does that drive have?  What artifacts indicate this? Where did you find Shellbag entries to collaborate that?  And the grand daddy of all questions for remote access....WAS REMOTE ACCESS ENABLED on the desktop computer? What Window artifacts did you find? What event log ID's did you see that indicate remote access? 1149? 4624? 4625?  Did the forensic examination by HSI find ANY of those event IDs that indicate remote access.  This is DFIR (digital forensic incident response) at it's best.  Any of those avenues shuts down the "we have a mystery here". 

Edited December 2, 2021 by hathorlive

[SMama]

Someone posted on FJ that the Redditor either deleted his/her account or it was removed. Bummer, if true. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by SMama

[MsJamieDornan]

From The Sun and several other sources : 

"Jill and Jedidiah are set to testify this week, however, it is not clear at the moment if it will be for the prosecution or the defense."

So, no one knows who Jill will be testifying for.

Also: 

JUST NOW

COURT BEGAN EARLY ON THURSDAY

According to a reporter with KNWA and Fox24, court began at 8.30 local time for Josh Duggar's trial today.

Edited December 2, 2021 by MsJamieDornan

[absnow54]

Hilaria is there today!!!

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Word on the street is Justin and Claire are in court today.  I guess they really are taking turns.

Just now, absnow54 said:

Hilaria is there today!!!

I can’t believe it…said no one ever!

[Ijustwantsomechips]

I’m just gonna say it…Anna , if you insist on going to court every day, buy another dress or two.  It’s not like it’s wrong to re-wear something, and having too many outfits can be wasteful.  But these are not poor or working class people.  Surely you can afford two nice dresses.  You just had another kid and maybe nothing fits but that seems like a good enough reason to get something new.  Dress the body you have and all that. 

[hathorlive]

54 minutes ago, Panopticon said:

Obviously nothing about this situation is funny.

But if something about it WERE going to be funny, it would be Jeremy suddenly showing up in court wearing a fancier suit than Derick’s. 

Trust me, in these cases, laugh where you can.  This field has a high burn out rate and we usually have to go speak to a counselor every couple of years.  It's okay to try to find something lighthearted when you can.  I think they call it MASH humor.

[Zella]

Yes the Sun is saying Justin, Claire, Hilaria, Austin, and Derick are all there! Apparently Austin and Justin did speak to each other. But Austin is the only one not sitting by Anna. 

I guess court was really late starting again today.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Zella

[SusanM]

11 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

From The Sun and several other sources : 

"Jill and Jedidiah are set to testify this week, however, it is not clear at the moment if it will be for the prosecution or the defense."

If Jill is testifying for the defense it will be interesting to see how they try to play this.  There is really no doubt, as the judge himself ruled, that the molesting happened.  Will they try to handwave it away a la Duggar and make it a boyish mistake and none of the girls were affected by it?  Seems like a risky move to me if so.  And if they try, now, to deny that anything ever happened - wow - does that open a door for the prosecution to come in with more evidence then they might have been allowed to take into court before?

[3 is enough]

5 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

I’m just gonna say it…Anna , if you insist on going to court every day, buy another dress or two.  It’s not like it’s wrong to re-wear something, and having too many outfits can be wasteful.  But these are not poor or working class people.  Surely you can afford two nice dresses.  You just had another kid and maybe nothing fits but that seems like a good enough reason to get something new.  Dress the body you have and all that. 

Agree with you on all points, BUT, remember Jim Bob is controlling the purse strings, and while he will fork out $$$ on legal fees or campaign expenses, he is notoriously cheap about little things like clothing.  And Anna is probably too afraid to ask for money to buy new dresses.  

At least that is my take.

[SMama]

I find hard to believe Jill will testify for the defense. It just doesn’t make any sense.

[BetyBee]

What a tough week for Smuggar! Apparently, the judge isn't aware of Duggartime. Getting there on time every morning, dressed in a suit, with his loving wife clutching his hands, must be so difficult for Joshua.  Well, with any luck, he'll soon have all the time in the world to catch up on sleep. 

[GeeGolly]

Derick must have a generous employee to allow him to take time off to attend the trial. Unless he somehow accrued a bunch of time off already. Or maybe he never did get a job.

[iwantcookies]

24 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Hilaria is there today!!!

Of course she is 🙄

[quarks]

25 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

Word on the street is Justin and Claire are in court today.  I guess they really are taking turns.

 

Honestly, it's well past time that someone in that group realized that leaving Anna alone with no support other than sorta Derrick and kinda the defense attorneys is not a good look. For that group.

[iwantcookies]

I can totally picture Jill Rodrigues showing up with her HUNK in tow to court to peddle Plexus and to say hi to Anna. I mean they are practically related thanks to her brother Nathan 🙄. 
 

Oh wait Jill totally changed her tune on her undying love for the royal Duggar family.

[GeeGolly]

The defense is cross examining a Fed. They're discussing the Williams brothers, pay stubs and remote access.

[Trillium]

5 minutes ago, SMama said:

I find hard to believe Jill will testify for the defense. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Agreed. She’s not involved in any way with car sales and unless she’s kept it very well hidden on SM, her relationship to Josh is basically non existent.  Of all the Duggar siblings, she’s the last one I’d expect to go to bat for him. I could see Jed! being the defense’s Duggar witness. He has “experience” with car sales and still seems very much on daddy JB’s payroll. 
 

I suppose anything is possible but I’d be shocked if Jill is there on Josh’s behalf. 

[BitterApple]

You've got to be fucking kidding me. Hilaria? She's an even bigger famewhore than Jill R. 

[hathorlive]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

You've got to be fucking kidding me. Hilaria? She's an even bigger famewhore than Jill R. 

Who is Hilaria?  There's too many kids, wives and hangers on to process this.

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

You've got to be fucking kidding me. Hilaria? She's an even bigger famewhore than Jill R. 

Yes, she is. 

[BitterApple]

Just now, hathorlive said:

Who is Hilaria?  There's too many kids, wives and hangers on to process this.

Justin Duggar's mother-in-law, who lives in Texas.

[SJC]

Just now, hathorlive said:

Who is Hilaria?  There's too many kids, wives and hangers on to process this.

Justin's mother-in-law.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Who is Hilaria?  There's too many kids, wives and hangers on to process this.

Justin's mother in law. Her name is Hillary but we nicknamed her after Alec Baldwin's batshit wife. She is a circus unto herself and my favorite Duggar in law for that reason. Lol

Edited December 2, 2021 by Zella

[hathorlive]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

Justin's mother in law. Her name is Hillary but we nicknamed her after Alec Baldwin's batshit wife. She is a circus unto herself and my favorite Duggar in law for that reason. Lol

Thanks all.  I was not aware of her.  I guess she has nothing better to do?

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

Thanks all.  I was not aware of her.  I guess she has nothing better to do?

i can see Justin being there, this is his brother after all, but Hilaria? 

[Zella]

Just now, hathorlive said:

Thanks all.  I was not aware of her.  I guess she has nothing better to do?

Probably not. She seems really fixated on some of the single Duggar boys. Lol I like to joke that Jason is her one true love. 

My theory is Justin came because he is curious, Claire came because Justin is there, and Hilary came because cameras are there.

[quarks]

8 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Derick must have a generous employee to allow him to take time off to attend the trial. Unless he somehow accrued a bunch of time off already. Or maybe he never did get a job.

I'm not saying that he does have a new job, but if he does, he started this job in September, at which point he knew the trial dates, and presumably told them upfront that he would need to take that time off. I've done something similar when I've started a new job and had prior commitments. (In one case, for a federal trial, even, though nothing like this.)

And in this particular case, I can readily see an employer outright telling him to take unpaid time off for this trial. Not as a matter of generosity, but because the trial would be a major distraction, not just for Derrick, but other coworkers. 

Or he just doesn't have a job.

[GeeGolly]

Joy is shilling a blue tooth speaker. She says, Austin is our DJ today and he's in the video. She might have wanted to save that one for another day.

[SusanM]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

Joy is shilling a blue tooth speaker. She says, Austin is our DJ today and he's in the video. She might have wanted to save that one for another day.

Honestly I am totally baffled by this family.

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

Honestly I am totally baffled by this family.

Gotta make money.  Grand dad isn't going to put food in those mouths.  Well, he was until Uncle Josh used it all for his legal defense.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Joy is shilling a blue tooth speaker. She says, Austin is our DJ today and he's in the video. She might have wanted to save that one for another day.

Why on earth would someone take speaker recommendations from someone else who a) doesn’t listen to a variety of music, and b) doesn’t listen to music with any bass or percussion?

[iwantcookies]

13 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Who is Hilaria?  There's too many kids, wives and hangers on to process this.

Hillary Spivey is her name. Loving Duggar boys is her game.

Actually she seems to love her sons young friends too. She is a weird lady!

[Nysha]

@Zella, I love the Credible Hulk! I'm stealing him to put in the PowerPoint I'm working on for the tutoring lab.

[quarks]

Meanwhile, I see that the defense is still focused on the cell phones, and like....defense, I know you don't have much to work with here. I get that. But this fixation on what federal agents did or did not do with the cell phones has seriously not been working out for you. Maybe focus a little less on these cell phones and a little more on their owners.

 

[GeeGolly]

I know most of have seen this, but...

Agent Faulkner said Duggar stated the exact words, "What is this about? Has someone downloaded child pornography?"

[Churchhoney]

17 minutes ago, SJC said:

Justin's mother-in-law.

There's a Justin? 😁

(Yeah-- and there are also a Jason and a James.....Really?? Really???.....The younger Howlers are almost as Lost as the Lost Girls, when you start to think about it.... And yet a lot of them -- and their mothers-in-law -- seem to think they're celebrities. 😁 )

Edited December 2, 2021 by Churchhoney

[iwantcookies]

Just now, Churchhoney said:

There's a Justin? 😁

(Yeah-- and there are also a Jason and a James.....Really?? Really???) 

I’m still sad there is no Jayden Duggar!

[Trillium]

 

1 minute ago, SusannahM said:

Honestly I am totally baffled by this family.

I can picture the judge seeing yet another young male with the hairline of a 55 year old thinking “Jesus, another one of these fuckers?” He seems very frustrated with the slow pace. I’m not sure if it’s solely the defense’s fault but I’m sure the bulk of it falls on them.  

[Nysha]

2 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

Get a lawyer and do not talk to the police without one.

And Never Ever Ever admit guilt or plead guilty. My son and a group of friends were picked up for minor in possession of alcohol when he was 16. He pleaded guilty, got home arrest and one year of probation. Everyone else lawyered up and had all the charges dropped before trial.

[CherryMalotte]

Can't say I'm impressed much with the defense, which is great mind you because I want Smuggar behind bars, but I don't think I'd hire them.