Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[GeeGolly]

Just now, Jeeves said:

I don't think the judge will allow an infant in the courtroom for this trial.

For any particular reason? The judge is allowing Josh to be around his children and an infant can't understand the topic.

[Absolom]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

For any particular reason? The judge is allowing Josh to be around his children and an infant can't understand the topic.

Potential disruption.  Children generally aren't allowed in courtrooms where I've lived.  

[Tabbygirl521]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:31 PM, sue450 said:

    they are taught that  the man has NO CONTROL and if something happens it is the females fault no matter how young the age is

 

not only that but josh finally gave in and  admitted he did it and begged forgiveness only after they threatened to shave a girl/womans head  instead of his head (  women in that cult  it is gothards rule women must have long hair for their husbands it is their crowning glory..if they had shaved a womans head it would have been very traumatic for her  and  every where she would go people would see it 

he made anna carry the bags into the place they stayed for the honeymoon....and at 1 point she was on  trip VERY PREGNANT (he should have been kind and had her stay home)   she was walking up steep steps to go into the plane and he didn't even hold her hand to help her  up make sure she diddn't slip or trip

Women are God’s sure-footed pack mules. 

[Tabbygirl521]

23 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

I call it 'bubble bath reading' and enjoy it since most of my work related reading is dry and technical.  There is also something very comforting in reading about people who are better looking than you, younger than you, thinner than you, wealthier than you but who have no common sense whatsoever.  Probably why I follow the Duggars, too.

I refuse to believe the Duggars are smarter or better looking than you.

IF Josh wants to testify, his lawyers can’t actually stop him, can they? They can strenuously advise him not to, but he has the right, does he not?

Edited September 4, 2021 by Tabbygirl521

[Lukeysboat]

1 hour ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

They can strenuously advise him not to

“I STRENUOUSLY object.” 

“You strenuously object. Then I’ll take some time and reconsider.”

Ha! Seriously though, I think Smuggar getting on the stand in all his smug smuggishness would be very interesting to see. He loves an audience. 

[Zella]

Not federal or criminal, but I wasn't allowed in the courtroom during custody hearings over me and my brother when I was a kid. We had to wait outside. Our being present was never even discussed or considered. So, based on that, I'd be surprised if kids were in the courtroom even if the case didn't involve what it involves. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Zella

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

For any particular reason?

This is a serious case and courts do not like disruptions. Even adults can be asked to leave.

[Cinnabon]

All of the adult Duggars should be there so they understand exactly what Josh was looking at. Ditto Anna.

[Minivanessa]

@Tabbygirl521, yes, it's Josh's decision whether he testifies at trial or not. His lawyers' duties are to advise him as best they can on what they think the best strategy would be, but at the end of the day it's his decision, no matter what his lawyers may advise.

As @satrunrose mentioned, the fundie/Duggar view of reality may be that it's godly and wonderful that Josh is married and the father of (soon to be) seven young kids. But this is one of those cases where the lawyers in the real world don't have much room to play the "look at this fine Christian husband and father" card to try to cast him in a good light with the jury and the judge.

That horse left the barn a long time ago as to Josh Duggar, specifically back when Joshgate I and II hit the press. Too many people know how he lost his job with FRC, caused TLC to "cancel" his family's show (although of course they just retitled it), and led to his making a public mea culpa statement and going off to Jesus-based "rehab."

Also, given the nature of these charges, it wouldn't be real smart to go out of their way to associate Josh with small children in anyone's mind in any context. 

ETA: To be clear, my comments about trial/court strategy to try to present Josh in a good light, don't relate to what would happen if he testified at trial. He hasn't been convicted of any felonies or misdemeanors and so couldn't be "impeached" on cross-examination for prior crimes. Also, unless his direct testimony somehow opened the door to it, the whole mess of bad behavior that underlay his Joshgate scandals a few years ago, would not be admissible if he testified. 

I was just talking about the general way that lawyers try to have their clients look "good" and respectable in the courtroom. Having supportive family in the spectator seats can be something the jury notices and figures out for themselves without anybody telling them. If you've watched any true crime documentaries at all, or been around courthouses, you've probably seen defendants show up for their trials looking WAY more respectable and mild-mannered than they looked when arrested. It's just how that goes, and sometimes it helps. But in this case if it goes to trial, the lawyers will probably just try to see that Josh doesn't look too smarmy or greasy. And probably tell the Duggars that a few adult relatives in the courtroom spectator section is okay but don't bring the whole damn bunch.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Jeeves

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, Jeeves said:

As @satrunrose mentioned, the fundie/Duggar view of reality may be that it's godly and wonderful that Josh is married and the father of (soon to be) seven young kids. But this is one of those cases where the lawyers in the real world don't have much room to play the "look at this fine Christian husband and father" card to try to cast him in a good light with the jury and the judge.

 

Be sure that they will make sure that the M kids are around the court house at some point.  They will want coverage that this is a father of 7 kids and gee wouldn't it be horrible to take the pedophile, I mean, father away from his kids.  It's all a show folks.  They will hope the jury sees the kids and the family support he has.  If I were on his jury, I would be skeeved out that he had access to that many children.

[merylinkid]

14 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Be sure that they will make sure that the M kids are around the court house at some point.  They will want coverage that this is a father of 7 kids and gee wouldn't it be horrible to take the pedophile, I mean, father away from his kids.  It's all a show folks.  They will hope the jury sees the kids and the family support he has.  If I were on his jury, I would be skeeved out that he had access to that many children.

The jurors will not be wandering the courthouse seeing the kids running around.   Also if they see any press conferences about the case, they are supposed to leave the area.    No matter how ill mannered, undisciplined children might behave at home because they are being raised by their siblings, courthouses do not allow that crap to go on.   There is security EVERYWHERE.   Those kids go wandering around or JB tries to hold a press conference IN THE COURTHOUSE, it will be shut down damn quick.   

Folks, this is real life, not reality tv.   The children WILL NOT BE AT THE COURTHOUSE.   Period.   Anna will not be allowed to bring a breastfeeding infant into the courtroom.   These things just DO NOT HAPPEN.   Judges takes these things very seriously and DO NOT PLAY.    Anna shows up thinking she is special because she married Gothard Royalty, the Judge will ORDER the infant taken out.   The trial WILL NOT BEGIN with the child there.   The jury will not be even brought in until the child is removed.   

This is federal court folks.   The big leagues.  The courthouse staff, security and judges, do not give one fuck who JB and the rest of the gang are.   They WILL adhere to all court rules or they will be removed from the courtroom, and the courthouse if necessary and NOT allowed to re-enter.

 

The lawyers are not in awe of JB.   They will lay down the Rules and expect them to be followed PERIOD.    Josh is their client.   If JB wants to act a fool and bring in the whole damn family, including children, the LAWYERS can ask that they be removed.   Again, the jury will never see this.   

[Rabbittron]

I wonder if his lawyer is going to play the wife just had a baby card and he can't go to prison because his wife needs his help?

[floridamom]

Jim Bob and Michelle need to be present in court too.

[BigBingerBro]

3 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

I wonder if his lawyer is going to play the wife just had a baby card and he can't go to prison because his wife needs his help?

Has that ever happened before?   I have watched many prison/court cases where there are kids and newborns invovled and it's pretty much doesn't make any difference

[Rootbeer]

35 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Has that ever happened before?   I have watched many prison/court cases where there are kids and newborns invovled and it's pretty much doesn't make any difference

I agree. I don’t see Josh’ attorney even bothering to mention it. He’s charged with crimes that carry a years-long sentence,  not a misdemeanor shoplifting/couple months in jail gig.  He knew the charges against him when the child was conceived. If he was so concerned about leaving his wife with a newborn, then they should’ve contracepted. Or abstained.  If he’s convicted, he will be gone for a very significant portion of his kids’ childhoods, newborn or not.

The size and ages of Josh’ brood seems like a double edged sword in this case. Based on the charges and the CSA that he specifically downloaded; I could see it backfire big time with judge and jury should the defense dwell on the numbers and ages of his kids.

[Minivanessa]

5 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

I wonder if his lawyer is going to play the wife just had a baby card and he can't go to prison because his wife needs his help?

 

1 hour ago, BigBingerBro said:

Has that ever happened before?   I have watched many prison/court cases where there are kids and newborns invovled and it's pretty much doesn't make any difference

 

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

I agree. I don’t see Josh’ attorney even bothering to mention it. ...

The size and ages of Josh’ brood seems like a double edged sword in this case. Based on the charges and the CSA that he specifically downloaded; I could see it backfire big time with judge and jury should the defense dwell on the numbers and ages of his kids.

^^This. As discussed, nobody's going to bring kids into the courtroom for the jury to see anyway, and especially not in a case like this. 

As to a sentencing hearing, assuming Josh pleads guilty or goes to trial and is convicted, the "but he has a family to support" is a usual argument by the defense. It rings hollow in most felony cases. I mean, this isn't a case where Josh is charged with a crime committed in a literally a moment of bad judgment when he was in chaotic circs, etc. This offense involves plenty of steps requiring intent and intelligence to perform.

ETA: if the case gets to a sentencing, I assume the probation office will prepare a presentence report for the judge which will have all the information about Josh's wife, kids, employment history, etc. The defense will be able to present information and arguments in favor of leniency, etc. No worries, JB won't have to stage a Handmaid's Tale family march into the courthouse. The judge will know all about Josh's family, and PR antics won't cut any ice with the court.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Jeeves

[hathorlive]

9 hours ago, merylinkid said:

The jurors will not be wandering the courthouse seeing the kids running around.   Also if they see any press conferences about the case, they are supposed to leave the area.    No matter how ill mannered, undisciplined children might behave at home because they are being raised by their siblings, courthouses do not allow that crap to go on.   There is security EVERYWHERE.   Those kids go wandering around or JB tries to hold a press conference IN THE COURTHOUSE, it will be shut down damn quick.   

Folks, this is real life, not reality tv.   The children WILL NOT BE AT THE COURTHOUSE.   Period.   Anna will not be allowed to bring a breastfeeding infant into the courtroom.   These things just DO NOT HAPPEN.   Judges takes these things very seriously and DO NOT PLAY.    Anna shows up thinking she is special because she married Gothard Royalty, the Judge will ORDER the infant taken out.   The trial WILL NOT BEGIN with the child there.   The jury will not be even brought in until the child is removed.   

This is federal court folks.   The big leagues.  The courthouse staff, security and judges, do not give one fuck who JB and the rest of the gang are.   They WILL adhere to all court rules or they will be removed from the courtroom, and the courthouse if necessary and NOT allowed to re-enter.

 

The lawyers are not in awe of JB.   They will lay down the Rules and expect them to be followed PERIOD.    Josh is their client.   If JB wants to act a fool and bring in the whole damn family, including children, the LAWYERS can ask that they be removed.   Again, the jury will never see this.   

Hum, not to beat a dead horse, but I've testified at federal court many times in these cases.  The jury gets in the court house the exact same way the court workers and others get in the court house.  They all go through the big metal detector at the door.  The Jury comes and goes each day.  They leave and go get lunch every day. So yes, the families can and do hang around the courthouse.  I know this because I've been yelled at and booed for testifying against their relatives.  That IS reality, not some television drama.  I've also testified at a public corruption hearing against a governor's staff and been chased through the court house by reporters wanting a story.  I'm not sure where all this security you speak of was then, but I always wear flats to court just in case.

BTW, the court has NO control over the steps of the courthouse because that is called public property.  That's why the Larry Nassar sentencing hearing had all sorts of protestors and supporters outside the courthouse.  

So no, the kids won't be in the court room.  But they can be anywhere outside the court room because it's public domain.  They can't be loud or protest.  Maybe due to Covid, they can't be in the building at all.  But they can be used as props and trust me, these lawyers are sleazy enough to make sure their presence is felt.

[ginger90]

41 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

  to make sure their presence is felt.

To me, that would be a huge mistake.

Edited September 5, 2021 by ginger90

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

To me, that would be a huge mistake.

I agree 100%.  If I were on a jury, I wouldn't want to be reminded that there's a ton of kids around him.  But what else are you going to do with Josh?  People rarely testify for themselves.  In this case it would be a horrible mistake because Josh is not articulate and his smugness is legendary.  The only thing the lawyers have is to remind everyone that Josh is from the biggest god fearing family of all time, and of course he wouldn't do this.  They can't talk about his hard work and value to the community.  He's not involved with anything (except Porn).  He's never done anything noteworthy.  They need some reason to hope that the jury has at least one leghumper who doesn't think Christians ever commit crimes.  

How many times has JimBob paraded the kids around for attention?  It's all he knows.  At some point, they will do something.

[Rootbeer]

3 hours ago, Jeeves said:

 

As to a sentencing hearing, assuming Josh pleads guilty or goes to trial and is convicted, the "but he has a family to support" is a usual argument by the defense. It rings hollow in most felony cases. I mean, this isn't a case where Josh is charged with a crime committed in a literally a moment of bad judgment when he was in chaotic circs, etc. This offense involves plenty of steps requiring intent and intelligence to perform.

 

In Josh' case, since he has spent virtually all of his adult life employed by his father in somewhat murky circumstances and since he was supposedly working to support said family at the same time the porn was being downloaded; I would think the prosecution could demonstrate that Josh has never been responsible for supporting his family himself and that he actually committed his crimes while supposedly working.  JB/M have always provided the bulk of their income.  After all, the car lot has been closed since the raid nearly 2 years ago.  Exactly what kind of work has Josh been doing since then?

[MargeGunderson]

I wonder if in this case that all of the kids might be a bad thing. If I were on a jury for a child sex abuse case, it would give me pause to think about sending someone back to an environment where there are a lot of children. 

[BitterApple]

52 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

I wonder if in this case that all of the kids might be a bad thing. If I were on a jury for a child sex abuse case, it would give me pause to think about sending someone back to an environment where there are a lot of children. 

I would too. My first thought would be "those kids need to be protected" not "aww, they need their dad."

[Albanyguy]

I'm sure that Jim Bob will be a constant presence in the courtroom, but I wonder if he won't try to dissuade Michelle from attending. I have a feeling that Michelle has no idea of how horrifying the porn Josh was downloading really was. In Michelle's mind, "porn" could be anything as innocuous as a Playboy centerfold or even a Victoria's Secret catalogue and Jim Bob may be keeping her in that state of blissful ignorance. If she goes to court, she'll hear every filthy detail and I doubt if Jim Bob would want that. Plus, if she's currently in a state of denial and clinging to the notion that someone else downloaded the porn, hearing the prosecution's case could shatter her illusions. This is probably true of Anna as well.

Having said that, I doubt if wild horses could keep Michelle away. She loves being the center of attention and not having the TLC cameras around anymore is making her feel bereft. While I'm sure that she's genuinely heartbroken over what's happened to Josh and terrified of what will become of him, there's probably a small part of her that will relish the attention she'll get playing her MOTY act in public again.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Albanyguy

[Tabbygirl521]

10 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

I wonder if his lawyer is going to play the wife just had a baby card and he can't go to prison because his wife needs his help?

All the more reason to lock him up

[Cinnabon]

55 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

I'm sure that Jim Bob will be a constant presence in the courtroom, but I wonder if he won't try to dissuade Michelle from attending. I have a feeling that Michelle has no idea of how horrifying the porn Josh was downloading really was. In Michelle's mind, "porn" could be anything as innocuous as a Playboy centerfold or even a Victoria's Secret catalogue and Jim Bob may be keeping her in that state of blissful ignorance. If she goes to court, she'll hear every filthy detail and I doubt if Jim Bob would want that. Plus, if she's currently in a state of denial and clinging to the notion that someone else downloaded the porn, hearing the prosecution's case could shatter her illusions. This is probably true of Anna as well.

Having said that, I doubt if wild horses could keep Michelle away. She loves being the center of attention and not having the TLC cameras around anymore is making her feel bereft. While I'm sure that she's genuinely heartbroken over what's happened to Josh and terrified of what will become of him, there's probably a small part of her that will relish the attention she'll get playing her MOTY act in public again.

These are the reasons why Michelle and Anna DO need to hear exactly what kind of porn he downloaded.

[Westiepeach]

I am sure Michelle, in her Xanax-induced haze, as well as Anna, in her starry-eyed oblivia, has NO IDEA the extent of the amount of trouble their golden boy is in. Anna will be a single mother for a LONG, LONG time. Michelle won’t know any different.

[Ljohnson1987]

2 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

I am sure Michelle, in her Xanax-induced haze, as well as Anna, in her starry-eyed oblivia, has NO IDEA the extent of the amount of trouble their golden boy is in. Anna will be a single mother for a LONG, LONG time. Michelle won’t know any different.

Both would have to admit he did something wrong first. 

[madpsych78]

They've all indicated that Josh has done wrong things before. Case in point: The Ashley Madison incident. The issue will be whether they can admit that Josh did this all of his own volition, or will they blame it on Satan building a fortress in Josh's heart.

[JoanArc]

Quote

How many times has JimBob paraded the kids around for attention?  It's all he knows.  At some point, they will do something.

Oh, no doubt. It cost his dumb ass a sweet state senator gig. He STILL didn't learn.

He'll use his former political clout, too. Not that it will help.

Hathor, how long do you think the trial will take? Days? One Day? Weeks?

[sue450]

so  a long time ago josh said he did NOT want  a lot of kids  and you could tell after the 2nd birth every time anna told him  of a new pregnancy he  did not care  did not show interest...and he makes anna do all the child care.... that would work against oh he is a christian man and has all these kids  that he loves and needs to take care of wouldn't it

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, JoanArc said:

Oh, no doubt. It cost his dumb ass a sweet state senator gig. He STILL didn't learn.

He'll use his former political clout, too. Not that it will help.

Hathor, how long do you think the trial will take? Days? One Day? Weeks?

Most of these trials I've testified in have been a few days.  I think the longest was 3 days.  It depends on how well the prosecutors and defense understand electronic evidence.  I was on the stand for two days in state court, with the two sides directing and redirecting like a tennis match.  The suspect was found guilty and they took the case to the court of appeals, who determined my use of the thumbnail cache was valid and that both prosecution and defense kept me on the stand for too many hours because they didn't really understand the nature of electronic evidence.  The feds are usually MUCH better prepared for court than state prosecutors. 

I think the federal prosecutors have enough resources to get at the gist of the case, which is pay no attention to the distraction about missing reports from agencies not pursuing this case and ignore attempts to discredit the FBI.  The owner of this computer was seen sharing and downloading CP and when we searched his computer, those exact files were located.  End of story. 

I have no doubt that the defense will drag this case out for a full week, calling the other members of the ICAC task force to testify that they saw the sharing of CP by Josh's IP address and took no further steps because they had other things to do.  I'm sure we'll have testimony that Josh was doing his Christian duty by helping a lost soul felon and this man paid Josh back by accessing his secret computer partition and using Josh's password to get on and download CP.  They will do everything they can to convince the jury that everyone in Tonitown was in that tiny shack and everyone knows how to access the other partition in a dual boot computer.  

Edited September 6, 2021 by hathorlive

[GeeGolly]

I think Michelle knows full well what Josh is charged with. She is the family CEO and JB is the CFO. I have no doubt Michelle is in on every single discussion regarding Josh. 

[Cinnabon]

55 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think Michelle knows full well what Josh is charged with. She is the family CEO and JB is the CFO. I have no doubt Michelle is in on every single discussion regarding Josh. 

Do you think she knows that at least one of the kids in the CP was only 18 months old?

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

I'm sure we'll have testimony that Josh was doing his Christian duty by helping a lost soul felon and this man paid Josh back by accessing his secret computer partition and using Josh's password to get on and download CP. 

That really is their only route, isn't it?  (Aside from the various legal gymnastics.)  That someone else did it?  Which is why the phone call from Josh geolocated to the car lot at the exact same time the CP was downloaded is so important. 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

That really is their only route, isn't it?  (Aside from the various legal gymnastics.)  That someone else did it?  Which is why the phone call from Josh geolocated to the car lot at the exact same time the CP was downloaded is so important. 

It's not just calls either. He's also literally taking pictures at the car lot that day and talking about a wreck that occurred outside and texting Anna excuses about how he'll be late because he has some more work to do in the office. His own words place him there. 

[hathorlive]

4 minutes ago, Zella said:

It's not just calls either. He's also literally taking pictures at the car lot that day and talking about a wreck that occurred outside and texting Anna excuses about how he'll be late because he has some more work to do in the office. His own words place him there. 

And more than likely, that's why he was charged with only two counts, when there are numerous images on his computer, because they have him dead to rights on those downloads.

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Do you think she knows that at least one of the kids in the CP was only 18 months old?

Do you think she would care if she knew the age?  Josh said "sorry, Jesus" and it all goes away.  Mechelle didn't care when he molested her own daughters, why would a stranger bother her, when Josh asked for forgiveness for whatever sin he's done?  I find it strange that they worship Jesus, who was all about empathy, and yet the Duggar's have an appalling lack of it.

Edited September 6, 2021 by hathorlive

[beckie]

4 hours ago, sue450 said:

so  a long time ago josh said he did NOT want  a lot of kids  and you could tell after the 2nd birth every time anna told him  of a new pregnancy he  did not care  did not show interest...and he makes anna do all the child care.... that would work against oh he is a christian man and has all these kids  that he loves and needs to take care of wouldn't it

Josh isn't dumb. If he really didn't want those other kids, there are ways he could have prevented it on the sly. He knew having the other kids was his duty and since he didn't have to take care of them, probably didn't really care. 

[GeeGolly]

8 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Do you think she knows that at least one of the kids in the CP was only 18 months old?

Yes, I think she does knows. She may not believe Josh intended to download it, or that he actually viewed it, but yes, I believe she knows the details of the charges.

[Churchhoney]

15 hours ago, hathorlive said:

 

I I'm sure we'll have testimony that Josh was doing his Christian duty by helping a lost soul felon and this man paid Josh back by accessing his secret computer partition and using Josh's password to get on and download CP.  They will do everything they can to convince the jury that everyone in Tonitown was in that tiny shack and everyone knows how to access the other partition in a dual boot computer.  

Since the guy had the password that Josh apparently has used for years for literally everything, I wonder why he didn't just clean out Joshley's bank account, too. (not that Boob puts any significant amount into it at any one time of course....) 😁

[JoanArc]

Quote

I have no doubt that the defense will drag this case out for a full week,

Thanks, I was thinking somewhere from 2 days to a week.

[farmgal4]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:08 PM, GeeGolly said:

Anna and Magnolia will be there, and Anna will be sure to bring her Breast Friend cape. Obviously JB & M will be there. I doubt anyone else will show up, unless they want to bring Jed!, because, well, you know, he being a bigwig and all (😁).

Nobody under 21 should be allowed to be exposed to that shit, even if its in a court room.

I wish that CourtTV would televise it.  I’d like to watch the twisted POS squirm.

[Rootbeer]

2 minutes ago, farmgal4 said:

I wish that CourtTV would televise it.  I’d like to watch the twisted POS squirm.

I'm pretty sure federal court doesn't allow trials to be televised.  The best we can hope for are some sketches on the evening news I think.

[BigBingerBro]

2 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I'm pretty sure federal court doesn't allow trials to be televised.  The best we can hope for are some sketches on the evening news I think.

Oh great - more of this!!

[Rootbeer]

3 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Oh great - more of this!!

Josh only wishes he looked that good.

 

[zenme]

54 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Josh only wishes he looked that good.

 

That rendering looks like John David.

[Westiepeach]

6 minutes ago, zenme said:

That rendering looks like John David.

Oh God it does!

[Quilt Fairy]

Won't people be able to watch it via Zoom? 

[Rabbittron]

I wonder if they would bring out what Smuggar did wasn't really bad and if it was really bad then why was he allowed to be around his kids?

[Rabbittron]

I wonder what the attorneys first words will be after Smuggar gets convicted we want to appeal this verdict.