Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Churchhoney]

21 hours ago, lascuba said:

16 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

I guess they are getting what they settle for.  NO ONE can stop them from leaving if they tried (the over 18s).  But there is a personal cost to giving up ones autonomy.  I feel sorry for exactly zero in that family.  Well I feel for Jenni and Jordyn.  They always have a look on their face that they are on to their parents and their bullshit.

 

Their own brains, which have literally been wired by life with JB and M and Gothard, can stop them from leaving. And they can do it by not even allowing the thought to form. Because that's how the brains of many oppressed children develop --it's the brain's way of staying out of trouble as a kid, learning to navigate the world that it's actually born into.

For survival purposes, the brain eventually doesn't even allow ideas outside of the rules to become conscious. You can be made by into a virtual robot by that means.

And isolation in a large group of people going through the exact same regimen, plus a nearly unfathomable but constant system of consistently inconsistent punishments and rewards of various kinds (many of the rewards made possible because of the tv show) keep the molding and indoctrination continuing. Remember that the executive functions of your brain aren't actually mature until your early 20s, so it was possible to shape these brains, big time, for over two decades, and shape all aspects of them, including the executive functions, and we can see clearly that the Duggars did. 

Been there. Done that. Seen that. Had that done to me.

Some people have the capacity to walk away fairly early, some have the capacity to walk away in later decades when some other influences have managed to seep in, some appear never to have the capacity to walk away at all. Because what's keeping you there? The way your own brain operates. The fact that, after an experience like this, your own being simply follows, quite unconsciously, the pattern that has been set up and it does so as a learned behavior to keep you surviving. 

And if you've never had something like this done to you, you will never ever understand and, most likely, never even believe that it can be done. I've spent a lifetime trying to explain it, and I have yet to see anybody really believe it or be able to get their mind around it if something similar hasn't happened to them. 

So everybody can just go ahead and say that the Duggar kids are all perfectly capable of changing their ways and leaving. But as a person who's been in that situation, I'll attest forever that, no, many of them most likely are not. 

[Albanyguy]

15 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

And isolation in a large group of people going through the exact same regimen, plus a nearly unfathomable but constant system of consistently inconsistent punishments and rewards of various kinds (many of the rewards made possible because of the tv show) keep the molding and indoctrination continuing.

Add in the fact that, in such an environment, you can't trust anyone. Even the siblings who are ostensibly your closest friends will turn on you in a split second and rat you out for the smallest infraction. Even if you haven't done anything wrong at all, you may still be victimized by a sibling who will make up lies about you to curry favor or stave off their own punishment. You are alone and powerless because the people in charge see and hear everything.

[queenanne]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Their own brains, which have literally been wired by life with JB and M and Gothard, can stop them from leaving. And they can do it by not even allowing the thought to form. Because that's how the brains of many oppressed children develop --it's the brain's way of staying out of trouble as a kid, learning to navigate the world that it's actually born into.

For survival purposes, the brain eventually doesn't even allow ideas outside of the rules to become conscious. You can be made by into a virtual robot by that means.

And isolation in a large group of people going through the exact same regimen, plus a nearly unfathomable but constant system of consistently inconsistent punishments and rewards of various kinds (many of the rewards made possible because of the tv show) keep the molding and indoctrination continuing. Remember that the executive functions of your brain aren't actually mature until your early 20s, so it was possible to shape these brains, big time, for over two decades, and shape all aspects of them, including the executive functions, and we can see clearly that the Duggars did. 

Been there. Done that. Seen that. Had that done to me.

Some people have the capacity to walk away fairly early, some have the capacity to walk away in later decades when some other influences have managed to seep in, some appear never to have the capacity to walk away at all. Because what's keeping you there? The way your own brain operates. The fact that, after an experience like this, your own being simply follows, quite unconsciously, the pattern that has been set up and it does so as a learned behavior to keep you surviving. 

And if you've never had something like this done to you, you will never ever understand and, most likely, never even believe that it can be done. I've spent a lifetime trying to explain it, and I have yet to see anybody really believe it or be able to get their mind around it if something similar hasn't happened to them. 

So everybody can just go ahead and say that the Duggar kids are all perfectly capable of changing their ways and leaving. But as a person who's been in that situation, I'll attest forever that, no, many of them most likely are not. 

I don't have any problem believing it (well, you probably could have guessed that).  I think anyone who hasn't had the feeling is fortunate and privileged.  I've seen reports of people online which reads like they've gotten the "abusive job" treatment, as have I many a time in the past, and a bad job, for example, can literally give you PTSD.  There are people who leave said jobs and need months to recover/not work/in fact do nothing, because the events, physical setup, w/e of the job that you objects to and sometimes basically all of them, beats you down like a giant's hand pressing atop the crown of your head for multiple days a week.  You can forget about a "side hustle".  Weekends don't refresh you.  Vacations barely function as a stress-relieving blip.  You can see the layout of your office in your mind's eye at the drop of a hat.  I could go on!  It won't be a lifetime's worth of indoctrination, but to say a human being absolutely can't be beaten down into an all-encompassing inescapable inertia... that's wishful thinking.

[EVS]

On 3/24/2017 at 9:15 AM, tabloidlover said:

I'm too lazy to do a full google search.  Any suggestions on where to find some of these stories?  I'm curious.

If you want to read one in-depth story, I highly recommend the book "I Fired God" by Jocelyn Zichterman

[Love2dance]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

And if you've never had something like this done to you, you will never ever understand and, most likely, never even believe that it can be done. I've spent a lifetime trying to explain it, and I have yet to see anybody really believe it or be able to get their mind around it if something similar hasn't happened to them. 

So everybody can just go ahead and say that the Duggar kids are all perfectly capable of changing their ways and leaving. But as a person who's been in that situation, I'll attest forever that, no, many of them most likely are not. 

I believe you, CHURCHHONEY, and am very grateful that I was spared those experiences. So glad you were able to escape, and appreciate your sharing with us.

[tabloidlover]

20 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

As for Anna I think it's a lot easier for her to stay. Indoctrination/faith, finances, fame and family are reasons I can see her staying. When family reaches out to other family and offer help, like Anna's brother did, it's often temporary. I doubt he was offering to permanently support Anna and the kids. A single mother of four with no work history would need some time to be self-sustaining. Anna is not unique in trying to repair or remain in an unhealthy marriage. Like many of you, I'd be gone in a heartbeat, but I can wrap my head around her decision to stay.

It saddens me that she truly believes this is her best (only) option. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

5 hours ago, ginger90 said:

Still no public congratulations from the Duggar crew. Sad, to me.

It's really sad, IMO.  I guess some babies are better than other babies, even if they are Duggars.

Little Meri didn't ask to be born and neither did M5 boy. It saddens me that these poor littles will suffer greatly for the sins of their father.

[Mollie]

13 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

 It saddens me that these poor littles will suffer greatly for the sins of their father.

Can you imagine someone going through their whole life known as 'the son of Josh Duggar?'

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 minutes ago, Mollie said:

Can you imagine someone going through their whole life known as 'the son of Josh Duggar?'

Right now the count will soon be three little boys who must bear that shame.

[louannems]

45 minutes ago, EVS said:

If you want to read one in-depth story, I highly recommend the book "I Fired God" by Jocelyn Zichterman

Another in-depth story is "Girl At The End Of The World.

[Sew Sumi]

I have to plug my old history professor's wife, Julia Scheeres, whose memoir Jesus Land will move you to tears. Not quiverful, but hard-core fundie.

[GeeGolly]

4 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

It's really sad, IMO.  I guess some babies are better than other babies, even if they are Duggars.

Little Meri didn't ask to be born and neither did M5 boy. It saddens me that these poor littles will suffer greatly for the sins of their father.

I agree that Josh's actions are most likely going to have a negative impact on all the Ms at one point or another. However I don't think the lack of public acknowledgment by the parents and siblings for M5 is because any of them will love this child less. I think it's a business decision and one Anna & Josh agree probably with.

[Sew Sumi]

The lack of public acknowldegement from family members who appear on the show reinforces my belief that M5's birth won't be filmed. I do wonder whether they will acknowledge her pregnancy at all and shoot any THs she does from the neck up. 

[GeeGolly]

33 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

The lack of public acknowldegement from family members who appear on the show reinforces my belief that M5's birth won't be filmed. I do wonder whether they will acknowledge her pregnancy at all and shoot any THs she does from the neck up. 

I wonder too. Maybe toward the end of the season they'll do a brief TH with Anna where she'll do the "working hard on forgiveness, babies are a blessing' spiel.

Edited March 25, 2017 by GeeGolly

[Mollie]

When Michelle and Jim Bob referred to the Josh/Anna baby announcement on Facebook, they got over 2,300 comments − all are about Josh's sexcapades.

 

[Missy Vixen]

On 3/24/2017 at 11:04 AM, Lady Edith said:

I've been thinking about the lawsuit and all that.  Here's what I'm thinking:

I'm thinking that Anna doesn't receive a check directly from TLC for her appearances.  Same with Jessa, Jill and the others.  I think that, after the first lawsuit, Jim Bob established a system that could look like this:  All TLC money goes into a family trust from which Jim Bob (or a fundilicious accountant) pays the bills for each of the houses, as well as provide a food and clothing allowance for each of the kids not living at the TTH.  

 

The other benefit of an arrangement like this: Those who might be interested in bolting do not have the cash to do so and would have to take KJB to court to get it. I get the general impression that KJB is not such a nice guy when one gets on his bad side, and I'm guessing the kidults have seen enough examples of this previously that they won't test the limits. One has to imagine there's also signed paperwork between KJB's lawyer(s) and each of the kidults and their spouses that any attempt to challenge this arrangement in court will also bring unpleasant consequences.

Imagine the fun if something like that came out in a deposition or open court. 

5 minutes ago, Mollie said:

When Michelle and Jim Bob referred to the Josh/Anna baby announcement on Facebook, they got over 2,300 comments − all are about Josh's sexcapades.

 

 

"Sweet" must have been the word of the day in today's Wisdom Booklets lesson!

[Mollie]

5 minutes ago, Missy Vixen said:

"Sweet" must have been the word of the day in today's Wisdom Booklets lesson!

LOL  -  It's obvious that today's lesson was not about punctuation or grammar.  Michelle's post is a big, fat run-on sentence.

[sATL]

19 hours ago, YupItsMe said:

Yep, she definitely can't hide it anymore.

who are the other ladies in the Ark Encounter pix ? Anna has non-family friends now ?

Edited March 25, 2017 by sATL

[Mollie]

7 minutes ago, sATL said:

who are the other ladies in the Ark Encounter pix ? Anna has non-family friends now ?

I think the whole Bates family was there, too.  They live nearby.

[sATL]

FYI... regarding earnings.. found an article from 2012 - prior to Josh-gate (link)

"One guide to how much the Thompsons may earn comes from TLC’s other series built around unorthodox families. At the height of their fame (and before the parental split), the Gosselins of Jon & Kate + 8 were earning $22,500 per episode. (So said Jon Gosselin in a 2009 interview.) The Duggar family, of 19 Kids and Counting, earn between $25,000 and $40,000 per episode. (Note that the Gosselin family was half as big and lived in suburban Pennsylvania, while the ever-expanding Duggar brood lives in rural Arkansas.) "

The highest paid performers in reality TV are, of course, the Kardashians.

10 minutes ago, Mollie said:

I think the whole Bates family was there, too.  They live nearby.

I'm referring to the picture posted on a few pages back that showed Anna and her new belly. I don't  think those are the Bates girls

[Mollie]

2 minutes ago, sATL said:

I'm referring to the picture posted on a few pages back that showed Anna and her new belly. I don't  think those are the Bates girls

Probably just other tourists who wanted their pictures taken with the Duggars . . .

The other girls aren't dressed like they are part of the Duggar circle of like-minded, homeschooling friends.

[Lady Edith]

From the FB post comments:  "You've been visited by the Lord once more"  

I just can't...

Edited March 26, 2017 by Lady Edith
Wanted to clarify where I saw the comment

[Sew Sumi]

This is just gross.

 

[BitterApple]

Now there's a man who looks thrilled with his lot in life!

I cannot believe Anna is so stupid as to think a baby is going to fix their shitty marriage. It wouldn't surprise me if Josh walks out the door one day and never comes back. He's completely over it. 

[bigskygirl]

There is not an instrument out there that could possibly measure my horror and indifference in reference to the above picture.

[RazzleberryPie]

Having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that Josh is only 29.

[Mollie]

47 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

This is just gross.

 

So, Anna and Josh are both pregnant?

[GeeGolly]

Meredith appears to be having the same reaction as everyone.

[Andalusian]

I can't even snark on him at this point, it just seems... god, so sad that this is what his life has become.  I mean he's a dbag but I always like to believe humans have infinite potential and this...

This is the personification of depressing.

[Mollie]

9 minutes ago, Andalusian said:

I can't even snark on him at this point, it just seems... god, so sad that this is what his life has become.  I mean he's a dbag but I always like to believe humans have infinite potential and this...

This is the personification of depressing.

I think he cared more about his appearance when he was on dating sites.  

[BitterApple]

27 minutes ago, Andalusian said:

I can't even snark on him at this point, it just seems... god, so sad that this is what his life has become.  I mean he's a dbag but I always like to believe humans have infinite potential and this...

This is the personification of depressing.

I agree. Like if you had to visualize "crushed dreams" and "no hope" this is the picture that comes to mind. I know Josh has nobody but himself to blame, but seeing someone so resigned at such a young age is sad. It's one thing to be a complete idiot like Joy, or a narcissist who relishes being the big fish in a small pond like Jessa, but Josh is smart enough to know how badly his life sucks. He must feel like a caged animal at this point.

[MamaMax]

On 3/17/2017 at 9:19 PM, JoanArc said:

 

Im very saddened by this. I'd assumed they were quietly using contraception. A baby does not fix things. At all. I kind of surprised Anna still has her sanity left. It'd take all my will not to hit Josh over the head with a frying pan the first time his smug ass told me to do his laundry and make him a sandwich. I assumed it was announced now because Anna is showing and won't be able to hide it at the upcoming weddings. Maybe she and Josh can make out for the guests. ( doesn't this announcement make Joy's future look a lot happier?)

 

No, he was the 14 year old guy who forced his fingers into the vagina of his very awake 5 year old sister. Never forget or minimize with that fuckin' PR generated 'touching' line.

 Mordecai is a nice name, considering Josh should be a eunuch.

Wait, what?

On 3/17/2017 at 10:28 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Smuggar's financial woes are exacerbated by the fact that he isn't getting a piece of the Counting On pie. Seriously, what could he be doing for Boob that will feed a wife and five kids (not to mention himself)? It's evident that they live in a Boob-owned abode, and if it's the guest house on the property, they may not even pay utilities. They just need food, gas, and clothing. 

I would bet that he is, though. I think all the Duggar money is doled out by JB, and I'm sure Smuggar is getting some. 

On 3/24/2017 at 5:01 PM, GeeGolly said:

I think we saw some pics of Jessa and Ben at TLC headquarters right before Counting On became a show. I think up until the new show all money went straight to JB with the exception of Josh & Anna who were listed as 'special guests' or something like that, at the end of the credits on the later shows of 19 & Counting. I'm guessing the married couples are getting their own paychecks. I'm curious if the adult SAH kids do.

As for Anna I think it's a lot easier for her to stay. Indoctrination/faith, finances, fame and family are reasons I can see her staying. When family reaches out to other family and offer help, like Anna's brother did, it's often temporary. I doubt he was offering to permanently support Anna and the kids. A single mother of four with no work history would need some time to be self-sustaining. Anna is not unique in trying to repair or remain in an unhealthy marriage. Like many of you, I'd be gone in a heartbeat, but I can wrap my head around her decision to stay.

And this is why the cults all want them married and knocked up YOUNG, before they have any idea of what they are getting themselves into. By the time that they wake up and realize that their lives suck, it's way too late and they have half a dozen mouths to feed.

The middle-aged men at the helm know what they're doing. 

[bigskygirl]

I admit I cannot stand him at all, but I can't help but feel bad for him. My life is not perfect, but compared to his, it is better in a lot of ways.

[Annb67]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

This is just gross.

 

Geez my first thought for him was "Fuck My life"

[Scarlett45]

15 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

I admit I cannot stand him at all, but I can't help but feel bad for him. My life is not perfect, but compared to his, it is better in a lot of ways.

I don't feel bad for Josh. He has made horrible choices over and over again that did nothing but hurt Anna, his kids, the family enterprise (their image) and he's still being "kept" by JB. He never has to worry about "keeping the lights on" or the soon to be 5 M-kids fed. Yes he's no longer the prodigal son but his life isn't all that bad. If he wasn't a coward he would acknowledge that married life (the type he pretends to want) wasn't for him, and either divorce Anna, or separate allowing her to be supported by JB (if that's what she wanted). I do believe he has affection for her (I don't think he hates her or has ever blamed her for his habits). But people can only pretend for so long. I say give it 5-7yrs and he will jump ship for good leaving more ruins in his wake. 

[lascuba]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don't feel bad for Josh. He has made horrible choices over and over again that did nothing but hurt Anna, his kids, the family enterprise (their image) and he's still being "kept" by JB. He never has to worry about "keeping the lights on" or the soon to be 5 M-kids fed. Yes he's no longer the prodigal son but his life isn't all that bad. If he wasn't a coward he would acknowledge that married life (the type he pretends to want) wasn't for him, and either divorce Anna, or separate allowing her to be supported by JB (if that's what she wanted). I do believe he has affection for her (I don't think he hates her or has ever blamed her for his habits). But people can only pretend for so long. I say give it 5-7yrs and he will jump ship for good leaving more ruins in his wake. 

If anything would make me see Josh in a...well, not positive, but less negative verging on neutral light--it would be him admitting all the things he doesn't want/like about his life, specifically regarding what his belief system tells him he's supposed to want. Like instead of, "I'll be happy with whatever god decides whether it's 20 kids or 2," I'd like hear, "I never wanted so many kids. We went through a lot of hard years growing up and it got worse with every new baby." If he were to actually divorce Anna (all the while financially supporting her and the kids, of course), I would 100% be on his side. 

[Mollie]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don't feel bad for Josh. He has made horrible choices over and over again that did nothing but hurt Anna, his kids, the family enterprise (their image) and he's still being "kept" by JB. He never has to worry about "keeping the lights on" or the soon to be 5 M-kids fed. Yes he's no longer the prodigal son but his life isn't all that bad. If he wasn't a coward he would acknowledge that married life (the type he pretends to want) wasn't for him, and either divorce Anna, or separate allowing her to be supported by JB (if that's what she wanted). I do believe he has affection for her (I don't think he hates her or has ever blamed her for his habits). But people can only pretend for so long. I say give it 5-7yrs and he will jump ship for good leaving more ruins in his wake. 

It's cheaper to keep her.  Josh doesn't want to be saddled with child support.  I don't think he wants to be estranged from the big Duggar family again, either.  What I think he really wants is to find a more clever way of satisfying his sex addiction and live the double life he became accustomed to living throughout his marriage to Anna.

[GeeGolly]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don't feel bad for Josh. He has made horrible choices over and over again that did nothing but hurt Anna, his kids, the family enterprise (their image) and he's still being "kept" by JB. He never has to worry about "keeping the lights on" or the soon to be 5 M-kids fed. Yes he's no longer the prodigal son but his life isn't all that bad. If he wasn't a coward he would acknowledge that married life (the type he pretends to want) wasn't for him, and either divorce Anna, or separate allowing her to be supported by JB (if that's what she wanted). I do believe he has affection for her (I don't think he hates her or has ever blamed her for his habits). But people can only pretend for so long. I say give it 5-7yrs and he will jump ship for good leaving more ruins in his wake. 

Where would he go? He's unemployable on all fronts; no real experience and has been outed as a pervert, to say the least. His Duggar name is quasi-famous and a quick Google search will bring up everything. Josh's only choice is to keep it in his pants and remain in the Duggar fold. It certainly must suck to be him, but he could have it far worse. He should consider himself lucky.

Edited March 26, 2017 by GeeGolly

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Where would he go? He's unemployable on all fronts; no real experience and has been outed as a pervert, to say the least. His Duggar name is quasi-famous and a quick Google search will bring up everything. Josh's only choice is to keep it in his pants and remain in the Duggar fold. It certainly must suck to be him, but he could have it far worse. He should consider himself lucky.

Right he is lucky. He fucked is royally and is still being supported by Daddy, will keep up his double life (if he hasn't already started back up again), which is what I mean when I said I didn't feel sorry for him. He's had no REAL consequences to his actions, starting from when he molested his sisters!

[Caracoa1]

The only way out for Josh would be to leave the nest and get together with some publisher and write a "Tell All" book on his fked up family and their way of life.... Literally.  He'd make millions.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I agree. Like if you had to visualize "crushed dreams" and "no hope" this is the picture that comes to mind. I know Josh has nobody but himself to blame, but seeing someone so resigned at such a young age is sad. It's one thing to be a complete idiot like Joy, or a narcissist who relishes being the big fish in a small pond like Jessa, but Josh is smart enough to know how badly his life sucks. He must feel like a caged animal at this point.

And when a Duggar gives up in the face of adversity, they really don't have many of the things to fall back on that others of us do have -- educations (hell, realistically they have few skills that go past elementary school, I'm guessing, and very little knowledge of anything) and significant workplace experience or, in fact, experience of any kind living and coping out in the big world with people of many sorts. Those lacks have to make recovering from adversity and reinventing a new life for yourself seem even harder -- like climbing Everest, really. And most likely even more so for Smuggar, since he did spend some time among more normal people and probably has some sense of the distance between where he is and where many other people are.

I wonder if we're seeing something similar with Jill, too. When the Duggar Perfect Life Preparation meets a reality outside the TTH, there's some major disconnect and disillusion. Has to be.

Any Duggar who manages to stay entirely within Duggardom's boundaries and have no ambition to go beyond them will probably avoid having the look Smuggar has now. But anybody who tries something else and gets a setback would be very hampered in getting over it, I expect. .... One more reason for them not to venture so much as a hair outside the box. I wonder whether Boob uses Josh's example to make that point to the others. Not that any of them seem inclined to try out anything except the bus-station couches.

Notable that JB had a bit of a hissy fit when Josh left and when Jill left. He knows they're not cut out for it. He never wanted them to be. But at the same time, he spent a lot of energy throughout their lives selling them on the idea that they were the creme de la creme and worldbeaters. Both Josh and Jill have found out that it's the world that's doing the beating, looks like.

It's true that they can kind of just sit on their asses while JB and maybe some leghumpers, in Jill's case, pay some of the bills. But I expect that they're always going to feel more or less like crap doing that. .... And I still question how effectively JB can support these hordes of people they're collecting as time goes on. And the tv contract does eventually run out. .........Wonder if he'll really enjoy busting his ass to bring in support cash for the multigenerational legions being spawned there as he moves into his 60s and 70s and 80s. Because I don't see how he's going to get much help from the variously beaten down, lazy and incompetent hordes he's spawned.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Churchhoney

[RazzleberryPie]

Josh and Anna aren't totally stuck. THey're both intelligent and physically healthy (not counting his obesity now). They have a ton of Duggars who could provide housing and child care while both of them really tried to develop their car business or *gasp* actually went to school - college, trade school, doesn't matter, though I can't see Josh actually doing anything that requires physical labor.

Lots of people have been in more dire circumstances financially and with less family support, and made it out ok. I totally get that it's hard to leave a cult when you don't realize you're in a cult, have been brainwashed your entire life, fear eternal damnation AND enjoy the perks cult life has brought you (TV celebs, income, group status, etc.). 

But at some point, they've had enough exposure to the outside world to know that this isn't working, and they need some financial stability at least. Anna needs to stop hiding behind babies and pregnancies, and get herself an education and job for when Josh either drops dead of a heart attack or ups and leaves. Josh needs to literally get up off his fat ass, and start doing whatever he needs to do to put this family back on track financially and emotionally, Mr. Headship, if he's going to stay the course. 

I think Anna's last pregnancy was my personal straw that broke the camel's back with these two. They were really stupid to purpose to bring another child into this season of their life. 

[Churchhoney]

7 minutes ago, RazzleberryPie said:

 

I think Anna's last pregnancy was my personal straw that broke the camel's back with these two. They were really stupid to purpose to bring another child into this season of their life. 

That's the thing, though, isn't it? Everything we see makes it perfectly clear that they are this stupid, and this boxed in and this unwilling/incapable/too despairing/all-of-the-above/whatever to really tackle their problems. ....

Plus, within the Duggar compound, even though support for their tackling new ventures is theoretically available, I don't see it becoming actually available. In that bubble, nobody's going to help out and support Anna trying to go to school or hold a job and not homeschool so she can do those. Those things are just "not done"' around there because everybody is just as stupid and short-sighted and blinded and steeped in 17 kinds of denial as she is, I think.

Seems to me the only thing that's doable is for Josh to go out and find himself an entry-level job of some kind and work his ass off to move on up over time, continuing to live off the compound as he slowly gets his act together. But given his nature and the whole milieu they're in and the dauntingly long time that would take, I can't imagine him really doing it, can you? 

And, of course, doing it effectively would require him to stop producing babies, too, and I think he's too much of a coward to go get himself snipped -- I think he's afraid of Anna's response, JB and M's response, and probably even of God's response. Plus, making your way in a workplace where you weren't hired because of your celebrity is hard and requires some sense of independence and some energy. He's never given the slightest evidence of having either! And since there's an alternative -- He can just cling to Boob's tit and feel deeply depressed -- I think it's pretty inevitable that that's what he'll do. 

They're both very ill prepared to cope with their situation. And for the ill prepared it takes more guts and energy and sense to overcome obstacles than it does for other people. I don't think there's any evidence that either Anna or Josh has had even the average amount of those qualities, let alone an above average amount.

They're just going to hang there and keep popping out kids, I think. .... And maybe someday Josh'll run off to skid row or throw himself in front of a train or something. But I truly don't see him doing anything else. Or Anna doing anything at all except being a super-prolific baby-popper. I'd love to be proven wrong. Even though Josh has struck me his whole life as being a jerk, I'd love to see him act like something else. 

[crazycatlady58]

44 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

And when a Duggar gives up in the face of adversity, they really don't have many of the things to fall back on that others of us do have -- educations (hell, realistically they have few skills that go past elementary school, I'm guessing, and very little knowledge of anything) and significant workplace experience or, in fact, experience of any kind living and coping out in the big world with people of many sorts. Those lacks have to make recovering from adversity and reinventing a new life for yourself seem even harder -- like climbing Everest, really. And most likely even more so for Smuggar, since he did spend some time among more normal people and probably has some sense of the distance between where he is and where many other people are.

I wonder if we're seeing something similar with Jill, too. When the Duggar Perfect Life Preparation meets a reality outside the TTH, there's some major disconnect and disillusion. Has to be.

Any Duggar who manages to stay entirely within Duggardom's boundaries and have no ambition to go beyond them will probably avoid having the look Smuggar has now. But anybody who tries something else and gets a setback would be very hampered in getting over it, I expect. .... One more reason for them not to venture so much as a hair outside the box. I wonder whether Boob uses Josh's example to make that point to the others. Not that any of them seem inclined to try out anything except the bus-station couches.

Notable that JB had a bit of a hissy fit when Josh left and when Jill left. He knows they're not cut out for it. He never wanted them to be. But at the same time, he spent a lot of energy throughout their lives selling them on the idea that they were the creme de la creme and worldbeaters. Both Josh and Jill have found out that it's the world that's doing the beating, looks like.

It's true that they can kind of just sit on their asses while JB and maybe some leghumpers, in Jill's case, pay some of the bills. But I expect that they're always going to feel more or less like crap doing that. .... And I still question how effectively JB can support these hordes of people they're collecting as time goes on. And the tv contract does eventually run out. .........Wonder if he'll really enjoy busting his ass to bring in support cash for the multigenerational legions being spawned there as he moves into his 60s and 70s and 80s. Because I don't see how he's going to get much help from the variously beaten down, lazy and incompetent hordes he's spawned.

The Bible verse that he should  have paid attention  to is " You reap what you  sow".

[bigskygirl]

I think one of the major reasons why JB did not want Josh to go to D.C. was the fact he was worried about the news Josh molested his sisters may hit the fan because Josh was going out in the public pushing agendas certain groups were not happy about. In the case of Jill, I think he was seriously hoping to get Jill and Jessa their own show, and he probably was worried Jill not being home or nearby Duggar Land would not continue bringing the attention the Duggars crave 24/7. I think he could care less one or more of his children failing big time as long as it did not bring the whole family down. Of course Josh put the nail in the coffins, but Jill and Jessa still got a show out of it.

[Lady Edith]

1 hour ago, Annb67 said:

Geez my first thought for him was "Fuck My life"

I thought that, too.  He has gained a LOT of weight and he just does NOT look happy.  

Meredith is most likely yelling/crying for Anna, who is probably fetching the food.  How well does she really know Josh?  He was gone in Jesus Jail during her parental bonding stage, so she probably has little to no attachment to him.  Hence her crying and reaching.  Come to think of it, I've never really seen him interacting with the kids much, it's always Anna shown taking them places and doing enriching things with them.  Maybe it's TLC editing, but that's how it strikes me.  And he is probably stressed out because he lacks the parental skills necessary to handle the four kids he has, let alone one more on the way.  The D boys were raised to believe that the women folk take care of the children, so I can't fault him 100% for not having the right skills.  But for the love of Pete, learn them!  

I give him three years and baby #6 before he cracks.  From what we've seen on tv and on FB and Instagram, as well as his recent past (and "bad choices" as a teen), this life is not for him.  And that's OK.  But he needs to admit it to himself if this is true.  Otherwise he is going to ruin more than just his own life.  

[JoanArc]

That picture...yikes. Diabetes inside 5 years. I think he'll eventually fake his death to escape.

 

Quote

Wait, what?

Yes....that happened and was in the police report. Michelle and Jim Bob ignored that (and weren't asked about it) in the tv interviews. They love the "inappropriate touching over the clothes" line because it minimizes what a sicko young Josh was shaping up to be, and trivializes what one victim went through. But it saved the show...so who cares?

 

Quote

When the Duggar Perfect Life Preparation meets a reality outside the TTH, there's some major disconnect and disillusion. Has to be.

Agreed. I think this is why Jessa sprayed so close, and Joy is basically making a lateral move. Joe will likely stay close by. Jinger? She may be free or may be getting re-brainwashed. Tune in to find out.

[cereality]

I know Josh is an adult and he made the choices he did; and Anna made the choice to not divorce him. But in my mind, blame falls squarely on JB and Michelle for raising their kids the way they did. WTF is wrong with them?? I realize that in conservative faiths (including mainstream ones - not just fundy-ism), it is 100% about making sure your kids follow your faith and live life the way they were raised bc if they don't then you have failed as parents and they will be on the road to hell. Reality is though in the modern era most people - even of conservative faiths - realize all you can do is show the kids the faith, indoctrinate them via church etc., give them lots of "guidance" as they're growing up -- and then when it comes down to it, give them freedom to live their own lives. If you are strong enough about your faith, going down this path should NOT worry you bc you will have the faith that you've raised your kids to be such believers bc they will live the way you want, not bc of you but bc they actually believe. Or maybe they won't live 100% like you, but they'll still follow the main tenants - i.e. fundie lite - which may not be optimal but is still better than going off the tracks altogether.

In JB and Michelle's world, they beat their kids over the head with faith; don't allow them to interact with society even casually lest they be corrupted or develop some friendships with people that aren't fundie and start getting some ideas that [gasp] they want an education or jobs or the ability to leave the home without a buddy to make sure they don't start having sex in the middle of the supermarket.

Josh never wanted this life. He saw the hard times financially, saw kid after kid coming into an already stretched thin family, and then clearly had teen boy issues that he could not address in normal teen boy ways. I imagine in that family getting an erection means hours of lecturing and prayer closet and asking for forgiveness - if not physical punishment. Unlike a normal 13 or 15 yr old, there is to be NO noticing of a cute girl at the supermarket or at school. So they repress all of that for 18 yrs. Then he's horny, so they "encourage" him to take a fundy wife who also wants a kid yearly - which he doesn't want bc he's not into it yet it would make him a terrible husband and sinner to talk family planning. Honestly he'd be better off if he were raised the way the Bates are raising their kids now. PLENTY of religion (which we don't see on TV), but they are all encouraged to go to a local college for at least 1-2 semesters; then they can go longer if they want or get jobs or both. School and work allow them to get out of their fundy homes and make friends, meet peers and go through the normal process of noticing guys/girls they like. Then they meet a conservative Christian - who has similar values big picture, have a wholesome courtship and wedding night, and then go on to live fundie lite if they so chose w/o mom and dad in their face. Some of them [gasp] even have TVs, some choose to move away with their spouses and not see the family 5 times/week.

[bigskygirl]

The whole thing reminds me of sad and tragic molestation incidents in a small town south of the area where I live. A school teacher was molested boys for years before the whistle was blown on what was going on. His brother was a big shot politician (or more a big shot politician in his own mind.) For years, the male teacher was molesting young boys because no one wanted to deal with it because it could ruin the other brother's career. Other teachers, school administration, school board members, and others in the community knew what was going on, but either they did not want to deal with it, in denial, or were afraid of what would happen if the whole thing hit the fan. One of the young boys who was molested got arrested for molesting a young boy, and he finally came out and told what happened to him. He went on the Oprah Show along with his mother to talk about what happened to him. The story finally came out, and it was not pretty. Fingers were pointed, threats were made, people got fired and rake over the coal, and a lot of angry people were asking questions. The teacher was sent to the Montana State Prison, but I believe he is out now after serving half of his sentence. I have no idea if he is even still alive. His brother and rest of the family came out to support him. Lives were ruin because people were afraid what would happen to his brother's career, the family name, their own careers, and of course money because there were lawsuits. Once again, innocent children lives were ruin because of someone egos. Just like JB. He did not want his family secrets to come out because he knew it would turn ugly. He wanted his five minutes of excess fame, and he was willing to sacrifice his own children to get it. Josh's victims paid the price, his life is not all that great, and now his five innocent children are paying the price for his, Anna, JB and Michelle's mistakes. Was being a bunch of obnoxious, hypocritical, self righteous, judgmental, special snowflakes, blame it on the devil famewhoring family worth all of this?

[Caracoa1]

Boob and Jchelle married Josh off young hoping a regular active sex life would cure Josh.  Josh married Anna so he could get laid..Not because he cared for her.