Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[merylinkid]

WOW.

Just love it.

Those letters that the Duggars and Friends would be so convincing to a judge?   Harmed more than they helped.    BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA.    They thought they could invoke what a good "christian" Josh is and the prosecution would be all "oh damn right, we forgot that part, okay, he can go home."   Instead the prosecution dismantled the whole "special" and "God's Chosen" argument piece by piece by piece.   

[GeeGolly]

It is all kinds of wonderful isn't it? I hope Josh is in jail, shitting his whitey tighties. 

[Jeeves]

It's more of a housekeeping thing and IMO not controversial: the prosecution has also filed a motion for forfeiture of the HP desktop that FF used for the CSAM, which the government seized from his office when they executed the search warrant. I don't think the defense will object, but I suppose they can. The computer has AFAIK been in the hands of the government since the 2019 seizure.

Motion is here: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817/gov.uscourts.arwd.62817.153.0.pdf

Edited May 19, 2022 by Jeeves

[SusanM]

12 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

To the attorneys on here: does the defense get a chance to rebut the beautiful memo put forth by the Feds? Or is this the last bit we'll see before sentencing?

I was wondering this as well.  The sentencing date is May 25th I think so they don't have much time to respond if they intend to.  The supposedly hotshot defense team should be thoroughly embarassed by this.  I guess as long as they get paid they don't care but still, it can't be doing their reputation much good.  Not the losing the case, that happens, but the way the don't seem to have been able to coordinate a decent effort to try and mitigate his sentence.

Hmm, almost like they want the book thrown at their client.  Makes me think they are just as fed up with the Duggars as we are.

[GeeGolly]

I can just imagine Josh sitting in jail, grinning after every phone call and every visit with his lawyers. Grinning because after regaining his confidence post losing his case, he thinks his schmoozing is working again and will surely work on the judge - and then BAHM! The judge is like not this time dude, not this time.

[merylinkid]

14 minutes ago, SusanM said:

but the way the don't seem to have been able to coordinate a decent effort to try and mitigate his sentence.

You can only work with what you got.   If the Duggars are like "no way are we admitting that CSAM is wrong, we want to only talk about how GODLY Josh is" there's not a lot the attorneys can do.   I'm SURE the attorneys told them that they need to be humble and show that Josh will have a support sytem to KEEP HIM FROM REOFFENDING if he comes home.   But if the people writing the letters don't want to listen, they can't make them.   I think it was Hathor who said including those letters was CYA.   So no one can accuse them of withholding stuff that Josh is CONVINCED would have cleared him or at least mitigated his sentence.  Sometimes, lawyers are just conduits.   It's the clients case.   We can only advise.   If they want to do something stupid, as long as its not unethical, we gotta do it or just try to get out of the case.

[SusanM]

Speaking of the sentencing date - unless it changes it's the 25th?  I plan to be here.  I really appreciate sharing this with all of you.  People in my 'real life' are barely aware of who the Duggars are.

Edited May 19, 2022 by SusanM

[GeeGolly]

Just now, SusanM said:

Speaking of the sentencing date - unless it changes it's the 25th?  I plan to be here.  I really appreciate sharing this will all of you.  People in my 'real life' are barely aware of who the Duggars are.

Same.

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, SusanM said:

Speaking of the sentencing date - unless it changes it's the 25th?  I plan to be here.  I really appreciate sharing this with all of you.  People in my 'real life' are barely aware of who the Duggars are.

Same with me. I plan to be here too! When this whole thing broke, this was the first place I came. 

[CandyXmasTree]

When the first scandal happened I called my mom and told her because she was at work and didn't know anything. Now we call each other when some news breaks. My mom and I both took off work on the 25th for sentencing so better not change the date.

[lascuba]

I have a major work thing on the 25th from that's going to last all day and I am distraught that I won't be here learning about the sentencing as it happens. DISTRAUGHT!

 

[CandyXmasTree]

Just now, lascuba said:

I have a major work thing on the 25th from that's going to last all day and I am distraught that I won't be here learning about the sentencing as it happens. DISTRAUGHT!

 

Well you can go to the prayer closet because I will be stocking it will all great things to eat and drink.

[all fall down]

15 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

To the attorneys on here: does the defense get a chance to rebut the beautiful memo put forth by the Feds? Or is this the last bit we'll see before sentencing?

Looks like it. Here is the defense's reposnpse, entered yesterday

I have not read it yet, off to do that now. It's 12 pages.

Read it - basically argues that he deleted the files right away and may not have even opened some of them, and that the government over-described the images/videos to get an emotional reaction. Their counter-arguments seem a bit weak to me. I found the Government's arguments more effective. But of course I'm not a lawyer, that's just my lay-person opinion. I know the Government's job is to go for the maximum sentence, and the defense's job is the opposite, but I still thought the government did a better job in laying out their case. 

FYI - all the documents that are publicly available and free can be found on this link. I bookmarked it a while back. It's sorted by descending so the newest ones are at the top. Other items that are under seal or not freely available, the website will direct you to PACER to purchase. As a side note, anyone from the public can sign up for a PACER account, you do not have to be a lawyer or associated with one. The account is free, but documents cost per page. 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by all fall down

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, CandyXmasTree said:

When the first scandal happened I called my mom and told her because she was at work and didn't know anything. Now we call each other when some news breaks. My mom and I both took off work on the 25th for sentencing so better not change the date.

I was on vacation when this all blew up. I remember we were in the car on our way to eat when I saw there was an arrest. First thing I said --- CP. I spent dinner on my phone here. 

I'm at work on the 25th but I have a computer all day. 

[SusanM]

3 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

. First thing I said --- CP. I spent dinner on my phone here. 

I first read about the arrest here but I never even thought of CP,  I figured it was the usual Duggar financial shenanigans of some kind that had finally come home to roost.

[Lady Jane]

On 5/17/2022 at 7:36 AM, libgirl2 said:

He likes to degrade women. He gets off on it. That is why what he was viewing was the worst of the worst. He is a sick person who should never be around children human beings 

FTFY

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, SusanM said:

I first read about the arrest here but I never even thought of CP,  I figured it was the usual Duggar financial shenanigans of some kind that had finally come home to roost.

I have one of those "worst case scenario" minds and with his past, it was my first thought. 

[iwantcookies]

I bet Joshy is happy in jail. Snoozes all day, eats his carb laden food (hey it tastes just like at home), eats his care packages and snoozes some more. 

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, iwantcookies said:

I bet Joshy is happy in jail. Snoozes all day, eats his carb laden food (hey it tastes just like at home), eats his care packages and snoozes some more. 

I hope he isn't. I hope he is miserable, I hope every time he closes his eyes he is afraid he is going to be attacked. I hope the carb laden food makes him sick. 

[Albanyguy]

2 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I hope he isn't. I hope he is miserable, I hope every time he closes his eyes he is afraid he is going to be attacked. I hope the carb laden food makes him sick. 

I think he's probably fairly comfortable right now in jail, but will be in for a rude shock when he gets to the Federal pen, where the conditions will be much harsher.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

I think he's probably fairly comfortable right now in jail, but will be in for a rude shock when he gets to the Federal pen, where the conditions will be much harsher.

It might be easier now, but I still hope he is miserable. 

[cmr2014]

1 minute ago, iwantcookies said:

I bet Joshy is happy in jail. Snoozes all day, eats his carb laden food (hey it tastes just like at home), eats his care packages and snoozes some more. 

I think he's scared right now. There are a lot of unknowns for him, and he's led a very sheltered life.

I do agree, though, that prison won't be a big problem for him once he gets settled in. He'll probably be in a segrated unit and be relatively safe from physical harm. I don't know if he'll be required to work, but if he is, he'll probably "work" as hard as he has up until now at the car lot. The food will be very similar to what he's eaten his whole life, and I'm sure Anna will be sending him care packages on a regular basis.

Plus, he won't have to even pretend to be nice to Anna, and he won't have to worry about any more "blessings." He won't have his parents breathing down his neck. Won't have to talk about Jesus/God/the Bible all the time. I think he'll probably sign up for college classes, although I'd be hard pressed to believe that he'll actually put in the work and get a degree.

[MargeGunderson]

55 minutes ago, all fall down said:

Looks like it. Here is the defense's reposnpse, entered yesterday

I have not read it yet, off to do that now. It's 12 pages.

Read it - basically argues that he deleted the files right away and may not have even opened some of them, and that the government over-described the images/videos to get an emotional reaction. Their counter-arguments seem a bit weak to me. I found the Government's arguments more effective. But of course I'm not a lawyer, that's just my lay-person opinion. I know the Government's job is to go for the maximum sentence, and the defense's job is the opposite, but I still thought the government did a better job in laying out their case. 

FYI - all the documents that are publicly available and free can be found on this link. I bookmarked it a while back. It's sorted by descending so the newest ones are at the top. Other items that are under seal or not freely available, the website will direct you to PACER to purchase. As a side note, anyone from the public can sign up for a PACER account, you do not have to be a lawyer or associated with one. The account is free, but documents cost per page. 

 

That sounds like a repeat of their initial statement to the court. The whole “he deleted the files right away” ignores all the trouble he went through to get the files in the first place. You can’t just go to Google and search for these images. He set up a partition on his computer and trawled the dark web for them. Even there the images are not easily found (bought) - the people who sell/trade these images take great pains to make sure that they aren’t selling to someone who is running a CSAM sting. For some of these images, you can’t get them unless you provide files in return, to demonstrate that the buyer is legit. There’s nothing to indicate that Josh did this, but just pointing out that the effort required to get the images is not something someone goes through on a whim. He may have deleted the files because someone walked in while he was watching them and he panicked. Or he did have second thoughts after opening the files, but they weren’t permanently erased from his computer. 

[sagittarius sue]

1 hour ago, all fall down said:

Looks like it. Here is the defense's reposnpse, entered yesterday

I have not read it yet, off to do that now. It's 12 pages.

Read it - basically argues that he deleted the files right away and may not have even opened some of them, and that the government over-described the images/videos to get an emotional reaction. Their counter-arguments seem a bit weak to me. I found the Government's arguments more effective. But of course I'm not a lawyer, that's just my lay-person opinion. I know the Government's job is to go for the maximum sentence, and the defense's job is the opposite, but I still thought the government did a better job in laying out their case. 

FYI - all the documents that are publicly available and free can be found on this link. I bookmarked it a while back. It's sorted by descending so the newest ones are at the top. Other items that are under seal or not freely available, the website will direct you to PACER to purchase. As a side note, anyone from the public can sign up for a PACER account, you do not have to be a lawyer or associated with one. The account is free, but documents cost per page. 

 

The largest section in the document is a comparison of sentences other persons convicted of CSA received, and why his lawyers don't feel FF should receive the maximum or enhanced sentencing.  Only the last paragraph mentions the friends" letters, and that's all it is, a mention.

[libgirl2]

18 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

That sounds like a repeat of their initial statement to the court. The whole “he deleted the files right away” ignores all the trouble he went through to get the files in the first place. You can’t just go to Google and search for these images. He set up a partition on his computer and trawled the dark web for them. Even there the images are not easily found (bought) - the people who sell/trade these images take great pains to make sure that they aren’t selling to someone who is running a CSAM sting. For some of these images, you can’t get them unless you provide files in return, to demonstrate that the buyer is legit. There’s nothing to indicate that Josh did this, but just pointing out that the effort required to get the images is not something someone goes through on a whim. He may have deleted the files because someone walked in while he was watching them and he panicked. Or he did have second thoughts after opening the files, but they weren’t permanently erased from his computer. 

This isn't like the time at work, a library reference desk, I was doing a search and had some interesting "surprises" that bombed my computer screen. I had to do a forced shut down. 

[MargeGunderson]

Just now, libgirl2 said:

This isn't like the time at work, a library reference desk, I was doing a search and had some interesting "surprises" that bombed my computer screen. I had to do a forced shut down. 

Who hasn’t had some “surprises” while searching, especially in the days before ad blockers? 

Given how sheltered Anna, Michelle, etc. are, and how they think the internet is pretty much a giant porn shop, I can believe that they think that Josh either accidentally found the images and never meant to download them or that the images were somehow “pushed” to him, kind of like your “surprises,” @libgirl2. That’s not how any of this works, but I doubt anyone could convince Anna or Michelle of that. 

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Who hasn’t had some “surprises” while searching, especially in the days before ad blockers? 

Given how sheltered Anna, Michelle, etc. are, and how they think the internet is pretty much a giant porn shop, I can believe that they think that Josh either accidentally found the images and never meant to download them or that the images were somehow “pushed” to him, kind of like your “surprises,” @libgirl2. That’s not how any of this works, but I doubt anyone could convince Anna or Michelle of that. 

I can see them not realizing that but Anna is on SM, I think she might know more than Michelle. 

[GeeGolly]

I think I shared many moons ago about the time my youngish daughter and I thought we'd be savvy and search a store's content prior to going there. This might have been shortly after we switched from dial-up - maybe late 90s. We wanted to get my husband a specific golf club carrier. So with my daughter by my side I type in our local sporting goods store and hit enter. Well we were certainly surprised at what comes up when one types in Dick's.

All this to say, no illegal penises showed up on our computer.

Josh seems to have convinced only those who want to believe his innocent. And the judge was spot on in saying those are the same folks who would be supporting him when he gets out.

I'm still hoping for 19 years.

[Cinnabon]

For sure, back in the day, “surprises” used to pop up constantly online. I worked in Silicon Valley in 1999, and there were times we had to actually unplug our computers because so many new windows popped up with porn that that was the only way out, lol. But it was all adult porn. CP never, ever showed up. Today, Josh could go straight to Pornhub and find adult porn, all legal. But he didn’t do that.

[Rabbittron]

22 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

 Today, Josh could go straight to Pornhub and find adult porn, all legal. But he didn’t do that.

Remember that adult porn is not his cup of tea. 

[Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

Remember that adult porn is not his cup of tea. 

Exactly.

Anna was soooo concerned about Josh possibly accessing and watching adult porn that she installed Covenant Eyes on all of his computers, but tell her he downloaded CP and she absolutely can’t believe it? Did she ever ask him WHY he created a separate partition on his work computer?

Edited May 19, 2022 by Cinnabon

[GeeGolly]

Josh had adult porn found on a few of his devices, including his phone. I think deviant sex is his thing.

[Zella]

Per the agent who testified during his bond hearing, he did seek out violent adult porn. That was part of what he was downloading but was not anything he was charged for. I think he's probably quite sadistic and is more attracted to people being hurt than anything. I cross-posted with you, @GeeGolly!

Edited May 19, 2022 by Zella

[Heathen]

On 5/16/2022 at 3:23 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I agree. I think he probably thought she was pleasant and agreeable, which is what he wanted from a servant, sex toy and gestational carrier, but I don't think he particularly liked HER a lot. He just wanted to be married and the status that brought him in his community.

I disagree. I think Smuggar DID love Anna, at the beginning, and I think he was happy about the births of Mackynzie and Michael, the first two kids. But I think once Smuggar realized he was going to have another kid in the house every two years or so, he soured on it in a hurry. At the same time, I think he didn't feel he had a choice in the matter. 

[Madtown]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I think I shared many moons ago about the time my youngish daughter and I thought we'd be savvy and search a store's content prior to going there. This might have been shortly after we switched from dial-up - maybe late 90s. We wanted to get my husband a specific golf club carrier. So with my daughter by my side I type in our local sporting goods store and hit enter. Well we were certainly surprised at what comes up when one types in Dick's.

All this to say, no illegal penises showed up on our computer.

Josh seems to have convinced only those who want to believe his innocent. And the judge was spot on in saying those are the same folks who would be supporting him when he gets out.

I'm still hoping for 19 years.

OMG! I did the exact same thing for the same site! My husband and one of our friends brings it up frequently in conversations because neither could believe I would think that that was the only part of their webiste. It didn't even dawn on me, what was going to happen when I hit enter!

[Nysha]

40 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I disagree. I think Smuggar DID love Anna, at the beginning, and I think he was happy about the births of Mackynzie and Michael, the first two kids. But I think once Smuggar realized he was going to have another kid in the house every two years or so, he soured on it in a hurry. At the same time, I think he didn't feel he had a choice in the matter. 

He may have loved her, but he showed his disdain and disrespect for her very early on in their relationship. 

[cmr2014]

41 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I disagree. I think Smuggar DID love Anna, at the beginning, and I think he was happy about the births of Mackynzie and Michael, the first two kids. But I think once Smuggar realized he was going to have another kid in the house every two years or so, he soured on it in a hurry. At the same time, I think he didn't feel he had a choice in the matter. 

My take on it has always been, that he didn't really have much use for her in the beginning. He couldn't live at the TTH, and they wouldn't accept him living alone, so he had to get married, and Anna (and more particularly her father) agreed. I don't think he thought she was good enough for him AT ALL -- not hot enough, not smart enough, and not from a good enough family.

I do think that they had a happy period while they were in DC. I think that for a short while there, they were a couple and actually beginning to communicate and act as a couple separate from their parents. Once they were back in Arkansas, though, I think that all fell apart.

I agree that Josh never wanted a bunch of kids, and I think he had some hope in DC that the baby train might slow, but once they were back in Arkansas, that fell apart, too.

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, cmr2014 said:

My take on it has always been, that he didn't really have much use for her in the beginning. He couldn't live at the TTH, and they wouldn't accept him living alone, so he had to get married, and Anna (and more particularly her father) agreed. I don't think he thought she was good enough for him AT ALL -- not hot enough, not smart enough, and not from a good enough family.

I do think that they had a happy period while they were in DC. I think that for a short while there, they were a couple and actually beginning to communicate and act as a couple separate from their parents. Once they were back in Arkansas, though, I think that all fell apart.

I agree that Josh never wanted a bunch of kids, and I think he had some hope in DC that the baby train might slow, but once they were back in Arkansas, that fell apart, too.

He should have stayed away from his wife or secretly gotten a vasectomy.  

[emmawoodhouse]

2 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

My take on it has always been, that he didn't really have much use for her in the beginning. He couldn't live at the TTH, and they wouldn't accept him living alone, so he had to get married, and Anna (and more particularly her father) agreed. I don't think he thought she was good enough for him AT ALL -- not hot enough, not smart enough, and not from a good enough family.

I do think that they had a happy period while they were in DC. I think that for a short while there, they were a couple and actually beginning to communicate and act as a couple separate from their parents. Once they were back in Arkansas, though, I think that all fell apart.

I agree that Josh never wanted a bunch of kids, and I think he had some hope in DC that the baby train might slow, but once they were back in Arkansas, that fell apart, too.

He cheated on her in DC. He set up Ashley Madison and the other hook up account while living there. I think he thought he was hot shit then and could get any woman he wanted to sleep with him.

[GeeGolly]

Folks with personality disorders love differently, if they love at all. I think Josh loved and still loves Anna - but his love is not the same love that most folks think of or feel.

[Scarlett45]

58 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I disagree. I think Smuggar DID love Anna, at the beginning, and I think he was happy about the births of Mackynzie and Michael, the first two kids. But I think once Smuggar realized he was going to have another kid in the house every two years or so, he soured on it in a hurry. At the same time, I think he didn't feel he had a choice in the matter. 

I think if Josh loved Anna he would not have done those rude and disrespectful things to her ON CAMERA for all of us to see: references to swallowing with a “wink wink”, making her carry the luggage on the honeymoon etc. (the honeymoon!)

I do think he was happy to be a father, in the status that gave him, one or two kids was fine. I agree with you that as the babies kept coming and he kept getting more dissatisfied with his life (not just because of that but it was a part of it). 

As far as not feeling he had a choice- Josh seems to do what he wants (as evil and twisted as it is), but he also wanted to be supported by his Dad. So I don’t know what he really thought about the kids after Michael. 

[emmawoodhouse]

19 minutes ago, Nysha said:

He may have loved her, but he showed his disdain and disrespect for her very early on in their relationship. 

Remember her lugging around suitcases into the wedding night suite while Fuck Face followed behind her, carrying nothing?

[Scarlett45]

14 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

He couldn't live at the TTH, and they wouldn't accept him living alone, so he had to get married, and Anna (and more particularly her father) agreed. I don't think he thought she was good enough for him AT ALL -- not hot enough, not smart enough, and not from a good enough family.

Josh was living at the TTH. Did you mean he didn’t want to keep living there?

 

I think JB wanted him married ASAP because he didn’t think Josh could control his behavior, the marriage and the status it brought was the “carrot”. 

[Trillium]

Josh got married for the same reason young fundies marry, to have a God approved three way with Jesus. Except Josh never seemed like the type that actually believed any of it, but he fucking loved being the Prince of ATI, so he did and said all the right things. Anna was just an available female that clearly has no self respect and dank the Flavor Aid hard. I think he does whatever he wants and never gives any fucks about his family. Whatever minor affection he has for them is only to maintain his self image. Even after all this, playing the wholesome White Christian is his only move. If he says screw all of it, he’s going to be an unemployed felon off Daddy’s good graces. If he ever wants a donut burger again, he needs to play the game. 

[Heathen]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think if Josh loved Anna he would not have done those rude and disrespectful things to her ON CAMERA for all of us to see: references to swallowing with a “wink wink”, making her carry the luggage on the honeymoon etc. (the honeymoon!)

I do think he was happy to be a father, in the status that gave him, one or two kids was fine. I agree with you that as the babies kept coming and he kept getting more dissatisfied with his life (not just because of that but it was a part of it). 

As far as not feeling he had a choice- Josh seems to do what he wants (as evil and twisted as it is), but he also wanted to be supported by his Dad. So I don’t know what he really thought about the kids after Michael. 

ON CAMERA. 

Sometimes I think "reality TV" is the plague of this century. It's not real, people! We talk about the fake proposals and the fake other stuff, so why do we accept as real heavily scripted and edited bullshit? 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Heathen said:

ON CAMERA. 

Sometimes I think "reality TV" is the plague of this century. It's not real, people! We talk about the fake proposals and the fake other stuff, so why do we accept as real heavily scripted and edited bullshit? 

Im my mind makes it worst if it’s fake though. 
 

None of us are perfect and can get a bit snippy or not nice to our loved ones in the heat of the moment- but no way would I PLOT OUT and enact treating my partner the way Josh treated Anna. (More than once).

It wasn’t a “slip of the tongue/super tired/heated argument” situation that happens in real life. Or even a “clueless” situation. If it was scripted and plotted- It was “let me deliberately show people this is how I act with my wife”. 

Where I am coming from that makes Josh more of an ass. 

8 minutes ago, Trillium said:

Josh got married for the same reason young fundies marry, to have a God approved three way with Jesus. Except Josh never seemed like the type that actually believed any of it, but he fucking loved being the Prince of ATI, so he did and said all the right things. Anna was just an available female that clearly has no self respect and dank the Flavor Aid hard. I think he does whatever he wants and never gives any fucks about his family. Whatever minor affection he has for them is only to maintain his self image. Even after all this, playing the wholesome White Christian is his only move. If he says screw all of it, he’s going to be an unemployed felon off Daddy’s good graces. If he ever wants a donut burger again, he needs to play the game. 

I can agree with this. 

[Absolom]

The shows have writers, set up lighting and marks, and do retakes.  How real can it be? 

[GeeGolly]

I think there are definitely real moments in reality TV. I think there are scripted moments and I think there are prompted moments.

[emmawoodhouse]

I don't think Anna hauling luggage was scripted. 

[cmr2014]

50 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Josh was living at the TTH. Did you mean he didn’t want to keep living there?

If I recall correctly, once the police became involved with the molestation incident (after it was reported by the Oprah staff), Josh was barred from living at the TTH.