Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Joe Jitsu913]

Anna's not going anywhere. She'll be the good, little Gothard wife until the end.

[RazzleberryPie]

The only way Anna and Josh will divorce is if Josh initiates it. She's too ingrained into their family - financially, emotionally, religiously - and honestly, I don't think she wants to divorce him.

[BitterApple]

Anna's not going anywhere. She'll be the good, little Gothard wife until the end.

I agree. Anna's brother gave her the perfect out and she didn't take it. I don't think she wants to be a 26 year-old single mom of four. In her world a sleazebag husband is better than no husband. I also think Boob is very clever in making sure Josh doesn't have a lot of cash or other assets on the books. I can't see Anna getting all that much in alimony and child support should they divorce.

[JennyMominFL]

Spousal support is short-term support. Kind of like get-back-on-your-feet support for the non-working (or in some cases the lower salaried) spouse. It comes down to state laws, length of marriage, contribution to the marriage/family, i.e. one spouse putting the other through school and then becoming the stay at home spouse, as well as good (and bad) lawyering. And of course any prenuptial agreement that may be in place.

Not always. My sisters rich husband gives her $2000 a month until  her death or remarriage. He's the one that offered it too

[LilyoftheValley]

Not always. My sisters rich husband gives her $2000 a month until  her death or remarriage. He's the one that offered it too

That is extremely rare and almost never happens.  Most people fight it and so it is almost always something short term until the other person can get back on their feet.  

 

But again, Anna won't leave Josh and even if she were to, he hasn't had a job in months and has no money.  I think most women these days can deal with a life without their husband if it came down to it.  They probably at least had a roommate situation or lived alone for a time before getting married.  I don't think Anna can even come close to imagining a life as a single woman - it's just so far removed from her understanding of reality.  

[JenCarroll]

Ok wait a minute here.

 

He told Anna the encounter never happened, and that Danica Dillon is lying and "people are making things up about me" because of christian persecution bullcrap.

 

Now, the reason for dismissing the lawsuit does not say that at all. It says that she was not injured by the contact, and that she consented to it.

 

OK, so which is true, Josh? How can she have consented to something she's making up? How can she be "not injured by" contact that didn't happen? It either happened or it didn't, Josh.

 

You didn't deny that it happened in the documentation submitted by your lawyers. You just lie to your wife, yet again. You shitbag.

It's a demurrer, or Motion to Dismiss. It doesn't admit or deny anything, it just says that if the facts stated by the plaintiff were 100% accurate, they wouldn't violate any law (or at least, not the specific law(s) that the plaintiff refers to). It's not inconsistent with his denial to Anna.

(I'm way behind the thread and I know we have other lawyers here, so apologies if someone already explained this.)

[Aja]

Agreed Anna's choices suck AND that she did nothing at all to deserve this mess. However, such is life. She is not the first, last, nor only woman to find herself with truly awful options through no fault of her own. It's SO time for that 'What did you do to bring this on yourself?' perspective to die - bad things sometimes happen to good people for no other reason than life is random, and we are all called to find and be our best self at those times.

I'm totally firing my therapist. You're hired!

[kokapetl]

You all make good points!

Writing a tell all would maybe give Anna enough money to buy her time to go back to school and get a job but that's about it. She would be starting completely over.

And starting completely over means leaving everything and nearly everyone she knows. That would be hard enough as a single woman, but incredibly hard as a single mom of four.

As cheap as the Duggars are I don't believe Josh would ask for spousal support. In their world that is just wrong. I also don't think they would fight for custody either, mostly because of what it would do for their image.

Anna may have choices, but from my perspective they all suck, and not because of anything she did wrong.

Sometimes there are no "good" options. Anna's "better" option comes with a considerable amount of risk, the "better the devil you know" option does not.

[lookeyloo]

I've said it re: Jana and now Anna - it takes a certain amount of "spunk" to pick yourself up from everything familiar and try and navigate an unfamiliar and scary culture by yourself.  They wouldn't know who to trust.  We say "come stay with us, we will help".  That is of no comfort and safety to them.  How would they know we are on the up and up.  Giving up any semblance of security with no idea of what the big bad world can do is terrifying to most of them, I'm just guessing.  

 

We've heard stories of abused women who stay with the abuser for a zillion good reasons to them.  We say we would never do that.  Well, there are plenty who do stay and can't imagine leaving, even with their lives at stake.  

 

I think Anna is in for the long haul unless Josh dumps her.

[LilyoftheValley]

I've said it re: Jana and now Anna - it takes a certain amount of "spunk" to pick yourself up from everything familiar and try and navigate an unfamiliar and scary culture by yourself.  They wouldn't know who to trust.  We say "come stay with us, we will help".  That is of no comfort and safety to them.  How would they know we are on the up and up.  Giving up any semblance of security with no idea of what the big bad world can do is terrifying to most of them, I'm just guessing.  

 

We've heard stories of abused women who stay with the abuser for a zillion good reasons to them.  We say we would never do that.  Well, there are plenty who do stay and can't imagine leaving, even with their lives at stake.  

 

I think Anna is in for the long haul unless Josh dumps her.

I don't think Josh will ever dump her.  He is extremely infantile when it comes to his relationship with his parents and he won't want to go through the punishment that would come with leaving his wife.  Josh will just resent her and his 10 + children more and more and get better at hiding his infidelities.  

[yogi2014L]

Anna's only entitled to Josh's money. If they did have a separate contract as speculated, she doesn't have access to any of the family pot. Josh is also now unemployed and now written out of any TLC contract. If she leaves, she will probably have to pay spousal support to Josh out of any money made from TLC herself. Then the Duggar's can also challenge the custody of the M-kids and tie her up in legal proceedings for years.

Monetarily, it's not so easy for Anna to escape. She wasn't in Washington D.C. long enough to develop a backbone when it comes to her in-laws. If she were in her 30's and this happened, she may have felt more comfortable leaving.

Wouldnt they both be in the same boat? Anna also entered the marriage with the expectation that she was not to work and would be supported by Josh. Wouldn't that get her alimony for a while? Technically they are both homeless and jobless and Ann has the 4 m's to care for, I don't think in any  reality she would owe Josh any support. If she got a half decent lawyer she would be ok. And held off on the book until the papers were signed.

[Missy Vixen]

Jim Boob would go scorched earth, get the most meat-eating attorney he could find on his cheap-ass budget, and go after everything Anna managed to earn, unfortunately. He has no respect for women and especially women who refuse to put up with his son's BS. TLC will look the other way while the "leaks" to the media come thick and fast and he would destroy Anna publicly and personally.

 

The herp-derp TV crap is exactly that. There's a reason why so many people (allegedly) can't stand Jim Boob, and it's not because he appears to be stupid.

[CofCinci]

I don't think Josh will ever dump her. He is extremely infantile when it comes to his relationship with his parents and he won't want to go through the punishment that would come with leaving his wife. Josh will just resent her and his 10 + children more and more and get better at hiding his infidelities.

Josh will leave Anna the moment he finds a woman who is into anal and oral and threesomes while being able to pretend to love the dirtbag (eye on the wallet at all times). Imagine him with the Farrah from Teen Mom type.

[MarysWetBar]

That took care of supper.

Thanks

[BitterApple]

Josh will leave Anna the moment he finds a woman who is into anal and oral and threesomes while being able to pretend to love the dirtbag (eye on the wallet at all times). Imagine him with the Farrah from Teen Mom type.

I'm going to go throw up now...

But I agree, lol.

Edited January 8, 2016 by BitterApple

[Missy Vixen]

I'm going to go throw up now...

But I agree, lol.

A woman that would be interested in those things (IMHO of course, everyone's different) would also like to be with someone who had some idea of what he was doing in the bedroom AND someone who might actually enjoy bringing his partner pleasure.

 

I don't think Joshley Madison has the slightest idea of how to accomplish either of those things. What's more, I'll bet he doesn't find them important at all.

[CofCinci]

Sorry for the visual. Josh has never received treatment for his issues. He'll do the Redemption Tour and visit low-rent convention centers with Anna to share their story of biblical triumph over sins of the flesh. She'll watch him like a hawk and the moment she lets her guard down, Josh is banging a groupie in the ice machine cubby of a Dayton, OH Holiday Inn Express while Anna's upstairs putting a little one to bed. Josh likes sex. Josh will continue to have sex -- with or without Anna.

[LilyoftheValley]

Oh I think Josh would dump her in a heartbeat if he could.  He got a taste of what life could be like for a single guy and no doubt he yearns for that life like nothing else.  

 

But I do not think that Josh could realistically give up the support of his family, and he would lose it if he dumped Anna.  Josh has no education or real job skills.  All his "success" in life flows directly from his family to him.  Besides the hooker sex, Josh has no independent life outside his father.  The guy is completely dependent on his family for everything.  Had he a good job independent of Boob, then sure, he would dump Anna.

 

I mean can this guy even crash on a friend's couch?  Like does he even have one male friend outside the family or the church?  I don't think so.  

Edited January 8, 2016 by LilyoftheValley

[louannems]

Oh I think Josh would dump her in a heartbeat if he could.  He got a taste of what life could be like for a single guy and no doubt he yearns for that life like nothing else.  

 

But I do not think that Josh could realistically give up the support of his family, and he would lose it if he dumped Anna.  Josh has no education or real job skills.  All his "success" in life flows directly from his family to him.  Besides the hooker sex, Josh has no independent life outside his father.  The guy is completely dependent on his family for everything.  Had he a good job independent of Boob, then sure, he would dump Anna.

 

I mean can this guy even crash on a friend's couch?  Like does he even have one male friend outside the family or the church?  I don't think so.

How about the couch of his personal trainer!

[cmr2014]

I don't think that Josh "likes sex" in the conventional way that most people do. I think that, for him, it is all so twisted and confused by anger and hatred, guilt, pleasure, etc. that it really is more of a compulsion than anything else. His interest in hookers and porn stars is more about "bad girls" than it is about any particular sexual act.

 

I think that JB and J'chelle are in a real bind here. Their teachings -- and probably what they really believe -- are that Anna is largely at fault here and, of course, Josh is the #1 son. On the other hand, public opinion is obviously behind Anna, and if they are anything less than supportive and loving toward her, there is zero chance of any new TV show.

 

I think that RU was a huge miscalculation by JB. Josh has six months of "freedom" from his parents and his family to actually contemplate a different sort of life for himself. For most of us, RU would be a nightmare, but I would bet that Josh can do all of that praying, repenting, and testifying on autopilot. He has shown his contempt for his parents pretty openly since he was a teenager and, while I think he loves Anna and his kids, he has shown that he really is overwhelmed and uninterested in more children. I would bet that the blind item about Josh having a girlfriend at RU is true -- most of these blind items have turned out to be true -- and it just seems too like Josh to be false. 

 

I don't know how it will all end, though. I think that Josh desperately wants out, but he is fat and lazy (literally and figuratively), and crawling back would be the easiest choice in the short-term.

[BitterApple]

cmr2014, I agree. Josh can recite all the Gothard platitudes in his sleep. It's like muscle memory at this point. However, as you said, Josh isn't the type who will hustle and scrape together a life of his own outside Daddy's umbrella of protection. He'll return to the TTH and go through the motions. He might keep his nose clean for a while, but he'll eventually fall into old habits. Hopefully Anna is smart enough not to be seven kids deep when it happens.

[LilyoftheValley]

cmr2014, I agree. Josh can recite all the Gothard platitudes in his sleep. It's like muscle memory at this point. However, as you said, Josh isn't the type who will hustle and scrape together a life of his own outside Daddy's umbrella of protection. He'll return to the TTH and go through the motions. He might keep his nose clean for a while, but he'll eventually fall into old habits. Hopefully Anna is smart enough not to be seven kids deep when it happens.

She isn't.  She'll double down and pop out at least ten more kids.  Then when Josh is 40 and hitting mid-life crisis levels of needing his "freedom", she will be way more fucked.  The show and media interest in the Duggars will be long gone by then too.  

 

I too think that Josh can only really "behave" himself if he is right under Boob's nose.  I bet Josh was into porn and strippers in Arkansas, but it was when he was on his own in DC that he upgraded to hookers. 

 

To a certain extent I believe that being a cheater is just a part of some people's nature and that there is not much treatment for them.  I do not mean all people who cheat, I just mean people like Josh who clearly had no intention of being faithful from their wedding day on and who are unrepentant about it.  They're also compulsive about seeking sex outside their marriage.  It's not like they ran into their ex at a convention and that was the ex they still had feelings about - I am talking about an overriding need to seek out sex with perfect strangers (hookers) and engaging in a style of sex they cannot get at home.  To me, it is similar to asking a gay man to marry a woman and not seek out sex from other men.  The only "cure" is to set them free from the marriage and let them be openly gay.  I am certainly not excusing Josh and I think he is a total asshole, but I just do not think that there is any amount of therapy or praying that will change him.  How many sexual partners we want and need is something that goes much deeper than our character or religious beliefs.  

 

The travesty is that while Josh did not have the ability to understand and express this very well before his marriage, he clearly knew that the Gothard lifestyle was absolutely not for him.  He knew he would not be content with one woman having baby after baby.  I wish that from now on that the Duggars would listen to their children a little better instead of bullying them into a marriage they neither want nor need.  

Edited January 8, 2016 by LilyoftheValley

[Absolom]

Jim Bob and Michelle will never understand that their one size fits all lifestyle does not fit all after all.  They will never grasp that some of their children were never cut out for the one lifestyle acceptable to Gothard and that it's wrong and reprehensible to try to force the children into that mold.

[pinkelephant3]

Did you see the new TMZ article about joshie saying he's never even seen the stripper who's suing him?

[LilyoftheValley]

Did you see the new TMZ article about joshie saying he's never even seen the stripper who's suing him?

He says he has an alibi.  I bet his "alibi" is Anna saying he was with her all during that time.

 

BTW, if he really had not done this then he would have denied it immediately.  The fact that he is only denying it months later after hiring a lawyer tells me that she is (mostly) telling the truth.  At the very least he paid her for sex.  The other reason I think she is telling the truth is this: she has gotten a lot of flak for saying he was violent with her and then admitting that she had sex with him again after that.  If she was lying about having sex with him, then why make herself look stupid and say she did it again after he abused her?  

[Aja]

Joshley say a ALOT of things, including blathering on and on about his conservative Christian beliefs, so zero points for credibility in the Joshley column.

 

I wonder when Jesus laid it on his encouraged, humble, repentant, servant's heart to purpose to lie like a fucking rug.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Aja

[Aja]

Oh, I thought his alibi was SATAN BUILT A FORTRESS IN HIS HEART AND MADE HIM DO IT.

He had to think of something else when his lawyer told him that wouldn't hold up in court.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Aja

[Churchhoney]

He had to think of something else when his lawyer told him that wouldn't hold up in court.

 

Damn this country for its war on Christianity and its vile abandonment of its fundie Christian roots!

[kokapetl]

The paying for sex I can believe, the violence and mental injury is harder to accept. The judge, as far as I can tell, has ordered her claim can proceed, but her claim for battery and injury is based on an "adult movie actress & entertainer's" expectations. Josh's response.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kokapetl

[truthtalk2014]

The paying for sex I can believe, the violence and mental injury is harder to accept. The judge, as far as I can tell, has ordered her claim can proceed, but her claim for battery and injury is based on an "adult movie actress & entertainer's" expectations. Josh's response.

I completely agree.  As much as I despise Josh and all his BS, I think this girl has GOLDDUGGAR written all over her forehead.  Any attorney with half a Harley brain will be able to discredit her.   This is my humble opinion and again I can't stand Josh or his parents.   

 

Maybe it is just me, but I feel that most females would be able to take on Josh and win.  He still reminds me of a Krispy Kreme donut that you could easily knock the air out of. 

[Sew Sumi]

He had to think of something else when his lawyer told him that wouldn't hold up in court.

Even LAWYR isn't that stupid. Neither is the judge who denied Smuggar's Motion to Dismiss.

[Aja]

I completely agree.  As much as I despise Josh and all his BS, I think this girl has GOLDDUGGAR written all over her forehead. 

She could be both a goldduggar and telling the truth at the same time. Putting myself in her position (EW EW EW EW),  I could see being cool with keeping quiet about it until Jesus intervened and made it into a huge opportunity for me. 

[Muffyn]

The only thing I find interesting in this mess is Josh's first defense was that what she was calling battery wasn't battery.  The initial call to dismiss the case was based on her claim holding no validity in that the law was not broken and she was not hurt in a way that is illegal (sorry, not writing very clearly today).  His motion for dismissal certainly implies he has met her before and that the events described in her case occurred; that is, they had the sex.  He states he did not assault her during these events.  Then his response is he never met her, never went anywhere she was, did not pay her for anything, la-la-la-la I can't hear you!  I know it's legal wrangling.  It just seems odd that if he can prove he was not in Pennsylvania when these events occurred, he wouldn't have pulled that out very early, stopping the case from getting this far.  

 

What I really hate is this makes me think about someone having sex with Smuggar.  

[JoanArc]

 

It just seems odd that if he can prove he was not in Pennsylvania when these events occurred, he wouldn't have pulled that out very early, stopping the case from getting this far.

They'd have released the proof to the media when the scandal first hit.

[kaleidoscope]

Here is a link to the article:

 

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-sex-battery-porn-star-lawsuit-reality-star-photos-videos-proving-innocence/

 

Josh now seems to be feeling quite bold and shames Danica Dillon for indulging in 'illegal activities.'

[NewDigs]

Yes! By all means, Let's Take This Country Back! Also, Let's Preserve Religious (Christian only) Liberty!

Would that mean we could finally put Christ back in Christmas?

I'm leaning towards the GoldDuggar thinking but am loving the schadenfreude.

[GeeGolly]

Yes! By all means, Let's Take This Country Back! Also, Let's Preserve Religious (Christian only) Liberty!

Give me Fundyism or give me death.

[LilyoftheValley]

The only thing I find interesting in this mess is Josh's first defense was that what she was calling battery wasn't battery.  The initial call to dismiss the case was based on her claim holding no validity in that the law was not broken and she was not hurt in a way that is illegal (sorry, not writing very clearly today).  His motion for dismissal certainly implies he has met her before and that the events described in her case occurred; that is, they had the sex.  He states he did not assault her during these events.  Then his response is he never met her, never went anywhere she was, did not pay her for anything, la-la-la-la I can't hear you!  I know it's legal wrangling.  It just seems odd that if he can prove he was not in Pennsylvania when these events occurred, he wouldn't have pulled that out very early, stopping the case from getting this far.  

 

What I really hate is this makes me think about someone having sex with Smuggar.  

I am pretty sure that first response was a 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss.  Under this motion, the defendant alleges that plaintiff has failed to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.  It has been a long since I learned about this and I do not do any litigation, but the way I remember it is that such a motion assumes that everything in the claim is true, and says "okay even if this is all true (for the sake of argument), it still does not state an actual claim".  

 

However, what surprises me is that Josh has not simply publicly denied it if he never even met this woman.  

 

Personally I believe Josh paid this woman for sex and that he was perhaps a tad too aggressive in bed but I do not think he beat her or anything.  

[Micks Picks]

Josh said in his apology that he was unfaithful to his wife.  So if not Danica, then with whom?

[Arwen Evenstar]

Give me Fundyism or give me death.

In a way, Fundyism is a death...the death of anything and everything remotely resembling FUN and the sour faced condemnation of said fun.

Fundies=Fun Dies

Maybe that's why the Duggars love pickes so much.

[mbutterfly]

The paying for sex I can believe, the violence and mental injury is harder to accept. The judge, as far as I can tell, has ordered her claim can proceed, but her claim for battery and injury is based on an "adult movie actress & entertainer's" expectations. Josh's response.

I admit to being naive about the adult movie industry, but I really believe these women were not prostitutes but simply acting in x-rated films which is legal. Can it be legally deduced that she would have expectations of unwanted rough sex? I'm thinking her acting career isn't really relevant to the case. 

[Almost 3000]

Josh said in his apology that he was unfaithful to his wife.  So if not Danica, then with whom?

Is looking at porn considered being unfaithful in their group? I've actually wondered if that's what he meant in the first place. That whole confession was odd and even odder it was taken down and changed a couple of times. I imagined JB and Michelle yelling at each other and Smuggar and hitting the delete key with another one hitting enter with more yelling and deleting. If it wasn't all so sad it'd be comedy.

[Tunia]

Josh said in his apology that he was unfaithful to his wife.  So if not Danica, then with whom?

I've always thought that Josh would come out with a statement that "unfaithful" by Duggar definition would include the act of just thinking "impure thoughts" and then try to claim this was his sin and that he never had physical contact outside his marriage.  In fact, I'm surprised he hasn't tried that already.

 

Oops...I must have been typing when Almost 3000 was posting.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Tunia

[Churchhoney]

I'm waiting for him to say that he merely climbed into her bunk and touched her over her clothes. And that she slept right through it. And then cry.

[queenanne]

Is looking at porn considered being unfaithful in their group? I've actually wondered if that's what he meant in the first place. That whole confession was odd and even odder it was taken down and changed a couple of times. I imagined JB and Michelle yelling at each other and Smuggar and hitting the delete key with another one hitting enter with more yelling and deleting. If it wasn't all so sad it'd be comedy.

 

 

I've always thought that Josh would come out with a statement that "unfaithful" by Duggar definition would include the act of just thinking "impure thoughts" and then try to claim this was his sin and that he never had physical contact outside his marriage.  In fact, I'm surprised he hasn't tried that already.

 

Oops...I must have been typing when Almost 3000 was posting.

 

Yes, you two have got it down.  "Any man who so much as looks at a woman with lust, has already committed adultery in his heart."  Matthew 5:28.

[LilyoftheValley]

This might sound crazy, but I thought that Josh may be lying about being unfaithful in the sense that he never got any pussy from Ashley Madison or any of the other dating sites he was on.  I think that Josh would rather publicly say he was unfaithful than admit that he struck out time and time again, year after year on those sites.  

 

It seems stupid but I really believe that if Josh's life was falling apart anyway he might as well have all the men out there think he is a stud.  

[Tabbygirl521]

Here is a link to the article:

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/josh-duggar-sex-battery-porn-star-lawsuit-reality-star-photos-videos-proving-innocence/

Josh now seems to be feeling quite bold and shames Danica Dillon for indulging in 'illegal activities.'

I didn't do it, but if I did, it doesn't count because whore. Nice, Josh.

[Churchhoney]

I didn't do it, but if I did, it doesn't count because whore. Nice, Josh.

 

Ah, a Duggar to the core. And a worthy follower to the Duggar master, Gothard, too.

 

Josh is putting a somewhat different sexy-time spin on it. But his evade-all-responsibility and blame-everybody-else-all-the-time approach marks him as having fallen quite close to the tree, in my opinion.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Churchhoney

[LilyoftheValley]

Ah, a Duggar to the core. And a worthy follower to the Duggar master, Gothard, too.

 

Josh is putting a somewhat different sexy-time spin on it. But his evade-all-responsibility and blame-everybody-else-all-the-time approach marks him as having fallen quite close to the tree, in my opinion.

The Duggars are too stupid to realize it, but they would be better off settling with this woman for like $100k and then publicly saying that Josh is paying the price for his wrong-doing.  Such a move would start to repair their brand and their relationship with the public.  

[LilyoftheValley]

This whole he wasn't in PA thing is a mystery. I would think that it would be easy to prove his whereabouts on the nights in question. A smart phone is like a tracking device.

If he wasn't in PA, why didn't he announce it as soon as Danica Dillon made her accusation? If he was in PA, what good would it do him to lie? He will just be found out later. It really is a mystery.

Yeah that is the thing.  A person accused of something they did not do will immediately and reliably deny it.  

 

I personally think that Josh was up to some very shady shit when they lived in DC.  I think he was going to strip clubs, drinking, maybe even sleeping with hookers.  What I wonder now is if it was only recently that Josh looked at all his records and realized that he was not in PA that night.  However, he could not reliably deny it any of this at first because he had been up to enough naughty escapades that he really was not sure that this didn't happen when the woman said.  

 

Or maybe it just took the Duggars this long to falsify all the records and alibi statements.  

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by LilyoftheValley