Jessa, Ben and Their Brood: Making a (Diaper) Mountain out of a Mold House

[CofCinci]

You can only take more deductions than income for a small number of years. After that the IRS classifies your job as a hobby, and you can no longer deduct.

The Ben/Jessa LLC is young.  They have plenty of years of tax manipulation ahead of them.

[GEML]

The Duggars aren't in any danger of IRS issues. They will get 1099's for the books, many of their speaking engagements and things like that. It's documentation that keeps a writer, who may for many years have a very small stream of income with steady deductions then a very large year or two with a book contract or a residency or teaching contract, etc., from the hobby/profession category, not the bean counting years.

(Not in any danger of having something being declared a hobby, as I'm also a writer and have been for over twenty years. Now their other IRS issues....)

[galax-arena]

Does know nothing know it all Ben respect a woman's pleasure as well as his own or does he just expect constant availability whenever he feels like it?

I'm sure their sexytime adventures are the best two minutes of Jessa's day. 

[Defrauder]

I'm sure their sexytime adventures are the best two minutes of Jessa's day. 

Or the worst.

[kokapetl]

I'm sure their sexytime adventures are the best two minutes of Jessa's day.

"Hey babe, did your Lego click?"

[sometimesy]

My bet is that it's a waste of time and money to go to the conference.  I'd hold out for something cheaper to attend since none of our questions, I'm sure, would be selected.  

Couldn't you just say you were going to ask a 'safe' question and then do a switch?

[Micks Picks]

If you were afraid of certain questions, you could have those with questions write them on submission cards to be handed to the staff with mics who collect them and then read the questions to the speakers.  Justification is that then everybody in the audience hears the question, questions are usually more succinct because they are written, and the speaker doesn't get the questions they don't want to answer.  

[GEML]

Well, in another thread we were all talking about how rude Jim Bob is - how he really isn't interested in hearing answers, he just wants to set himself up to show off by talking about himself.

And as someone who has done a lot of Q&A's, I will say that I think it's really rude to try and trick a speaker or deliberately attempt to play "gotcha" with a speaker at this kind of venue. Yes, I get it that we realize that the Duggars dodge the hard questions. But they aren't going to suddenly see the light because someone "challenges" them at a venue like this. All it does, in my opinion, is make them feel justified that they are being "attacked" (which is silly) but honestly, Jessa isn't a thoughtful or deep thinking person. I'm not sure she could emotionally handle something unscripted. (Keeping in mind the roses search on her engagement episode.). So why be rude about it the way Jim Bob is rude to people who don't speak his language? They aren't the ones who look badly. He is.

Just my opinion.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Well, in another thread we were all talking about how rude Jim Bob is - how he really isn't interested in hearing answers, he just wants to set himself up to show off by talking about himself.

And as someone who has done a lot of Q&A's, I will say that I think it's really rude to try and trick a speaker or deliberately attempt to play "gotcha" with a speaker at this kind of venue. Yes, I get it that we realize that the Duggars dodge the hard questions. But they aren't going to suddenly see the light because someone "challenges" them at a venue like this. All it does, in my opinion, is make them feel justified that they are being "attacked" (which is silly) but honestly, Jessa isn't a thoughtful or deep thinking person. I'm not sure she could emotionally handle something unscripted.

Then Jessa shouldn't be a "public speaker". As long as the questions aren't disrespectful, I see no reason as to why people shouldn't be asking her questions. Isn't that what she gets paid to do? Is she a savvy media-trained personality or not? I've never heard of withholding questions because the speaker might not be able to emotionally handle it.

No, the questions may not change her perspective or cause her to think critically. However she should expect the possibly of someone asking a question that may not be pre-approved.

[Sew Sumi]

From the Charlotte Southern Women's Show site. Jessa has stipulated which kinds of questions she will take. To wit: 

 

 

 

essa Duggar Seewald from TLC's 19 Kids and Counting will be appearing on Saturday, August 29th on the Fashion and Entertainment Stage. Jessa recently wrote a book with 3 of her sisters – Growing Up Duggar: It’s All about Relationships. Jessa and Ben Seewald’s wedding aired on a recent episode of “19 Kids and Counting”.  The couple recently announced that they are pregnant with their first child.  Guests are welcome to ask Jessa questions on her wedding details, life as a newlywed, her pregnancy and how she is preparing to be a first time mom when she appears on stage. After Jessa appears on stage, she will greet guests, sign autographs and take photos.

 

FWIW, didn't their "relationship" book come out two years ago, and written a year before THAT, long before even Jessa was IN a relationship? I am still wondering what qualifies her to be a relationship expert.  

 

https://southernshows.com/wch/happening/feature/373

 

eta: How is being a first time mom while being onstage any different than being a first time mom off the stage? LOL /grammar nazi

Edited July 28, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[Aja]

From the Charlotte Southern Women's Show site. Jessa has stipulated which kinds of questions she will take. To wit: 

 

 

 

 

FWIW, didn't their "relationship" book come out two years ago, and written a year before THAT, long before even Jessa was IN a relationship? I am still wondering what qualifies her to be a relationship expert.  

 

https://southernshows.com/wch/happening/feature/373

 

eta: How is being a first time mom while being onstage any different than being a first time mom off the stage? LOL /grammar nazi

Oh my GOD (but teehee to "to wit"). That just proves Jessa knows good and damn well that she has no idea who she is.

[RazzleberryPie]

"Hey babe, did your Lego click?"

Oh now I can't wait now to ask my husband tonight if he wants to click LEGOs. 

[Churchhoney]

FWIW, didn't their "relationship" book come out two years ago, and written a year before THAT, long before even Jessa was IN a relationship? I am still wondering what qualifies her to be a relationship expert.  

 

 

Apparently being a Duggar is what does it. Which amazes me since besides being "one of America's biggest families!!!" they certainly also qualify as one of America's Least Educated and Most Lazy-Minded and Willfully Ignorant Families!!! ... And somehow this seems to qualify all of them as instant experts in whatever they choose to pontificate about. Talk about anti-intellectualism in American life.

[Sew Sumi]

What's even funnier is that if you scroll down that page I linked above, there's a woman giving a seminar on...wait for it...DATING WITH A PURPOSE!!!! 

 

But sadly for the Duggars, it involves REAL DATES! 

 

I imagine that the ATI crowd will run after this woman, claiming that they have naming rights for that term. Hilarity will ensue. 

[Happyfatchick]

So I wonder what happens, taxwise, if the very venal, cash-crafty and greedy Boob of my imagination does what I suspect he might: demand that the kids reimburse him for their private-plane travel when they go to events for which they, not he, get paychecks.

 

Would it make the most financial sense for both if they paid him for the flights and then took those travel expense as a deduction?

. But DO they (and not he) get the paychecks? Because doesn't he have the Duggs set up as a corporation or LLC or something? So they might actually have it in their contract with the venue that payment will be made to the Duggar "whatever". Then he deposits, and gives them whatever he feels is justified. He WOULD get the full payment then, and there's his benefit. THEY would get whatever he "gave" them, but that would leave them open to deducting travel expenses on their own taxes.

And someone said the Benessa LLC is young, and I "think" it was sarcasm... so someone tell me (use your church voice): they don't really have an LLC, right?

[Churchhoney]

. But DO they (and not he) get the paychecks? Because doesn't he have the Duggs set up as a corporation or LLC or something? So they might actually have it in their contract with the venue that payment will be made to the Duggar "whatever". Then he deposits, and gives them whatever he feels is justified. He WOULD get the full payment then, and there's his benefit. THEY would get whatever he "gave" them, but that would leave them open to deducting travel expenses on their own taxes.

 

Yeah, that's another Duggar money mystery. There are plenty. I'd love to know how it all works. But I suppose we'll only find out when the really big tell-all comes out, written, I expect, by Josie in her old age. Which means that I'll be dead and won't get to read it. Dang!

[becca3891]

Just keep in mind that Dr. Wheat's sex book (the one Josh got for his wedding) has some pictures of female genetalia that does NOT include the clitoris. Mechelle might have been pleased early on, but I'd be shocked if either Jill or Jessa has fully enjoyed sex. 

 

Ben's too busy being the fire and brimstone preacher to think about sex. DUH! 

Darn, I HATE to be defending Dr. Wheat, just because he's a conservative Christian the Duggars admire. I want to snark and criticize but (ick) as a young teenager I found one of his books in my parents' room, and being ignorant and curious, I eagerly devoured it. I couldn't tell you about the illustrations, but I do remember that Wheat's book was what taught me about the clitoris, and it did mention that it needed to be stimulated. So, there's that at least.

[GEML]

Yes, most all of the Christian sex books include it (and did so even 25 years ago, when I was getting them as wedding and shower gifts). And it's usually covered in premarital counseling as well.

[Skittl1321]

My premaritial counseling had a part where the men had to compete to draw the female reproductive system, but I don't remember anything about the clitoris.  There was nothing about sexual enjoyment at all. (Though it was mentioned that sex should be used for maritial bonding.)

 

Maybe they just assumed we were all having sex already, so it wasn't necessary to instruct. At 22, we were the youngest people there.

 

I can't imagine Jessa was told much about enjoying sex. Is anyone really?  Don't people usually just figure out on their own that it can be fun?

Edited July 29, 2015 by Skittl1321

[GEML]

With the courtship model, "figuring it out yourself" does have the risk of an over aggressive guy never remembering a woman's needs. Selfishness happens in all marriages, secular and religious, but given the prohibitions on divorce and the swiftness in pregnancy and number of children, there is a lot at stake quickly if you marry a selfish partner. (And sex is only one area of selfishness, of course.)

So yes, it should be covered, even graphically, in premarital counseling.

[Churchhoney]

Then Jessa shouldn't be a "public speaker". As long as the questions aren't disrespectful

 

Well, for me the issue is that Jessa seems to have a mental/intellectual/emotional age of about 15 or so, and I strongly feel that these kids' isolation a) has kept them actual children to an alarming extent and b) is not their fault even at this point (five to 10 years from now it will be, in my opinion, but not now).

 

So that makes me feel that it's unfair to ask her questions that I know she wouldn't have answers to (which is pretty much all questions, actually). To me, it's a question of whether it's not better to give a pass to somebody who doesn't have the mental or emotional competence to grapple with what you're saying and whether asking her hard questions would do any good for her or for the misguided people who look to her for leadership. And I don't think that disconcerting her in public -- which would be all that would happen, I imagine -- would spur thinking on her part or have any effect on fans other than to rile them up against Duggar "enemies." Asking Jessa any of the many things that we're all itching to put the Duggs on the spot about seems both unkind and useless, in this instance.

 

I think "gotcha" questions are absolutely called for in many many interview situations. But I believe that they should be confined to interviewees who are old enough to be held fully responsible for their actions. I would be completely on board with asking all available hard questions of Boob, Mom-ME Michelle and Josh, for example.

 

And if I met Jessa in a private setting, then I'd consider any and all questions fair. Just don't see the point of publicly distressing a very immature and ignorant girl (no matter how much of a know-it-all she presents herself as on tv and instagram.) And I agree that she has no business being a public speaker! I don't think hard questions are going to stop her, though. They'd just give her an utterly undeserved martyr complex, I think.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Defrauder]

I wonder if they are obsessed with fertility charts because they feel they HAVE to have sex during these times to make a baby, otherwise they aren't 'leaving it up to God' in their screwed up logic.

[BitterApple]

I can see it going both ways. Jessa and Ben have tons of confidence behind the computer screen when they make arguably offensive comments towards groups/lifestyles they don't agree with, so why can't they put their money where their mouth is and defend their doctrine in a live setting?

I think the Duggars have had their scripts written for them for so long, they're incapable of thinking or speaking off the cuff. They're also not used to anyone pointing out the flaws and hypocrisy in their arguments because they don't socialize outside their small bubble of leghumpers. Jessa is all too happy being a big fish in a small pond, she'd get eaten alive in the real world.

Edited July 29, 2015 by BitterApple

[GEML]

And I don't think Jessa wants to be in the "real world." (The engagement episode was very revealing.). For all she was the leader at home, it was follower Jinger who could actively engage. And we know it's Jinger who does the street evangelism. (There have been some videos.). I think Jill is robotic, and Jessa isn't very bright (I'm sorry...) but I think Jinger might actually try to answer a real question. Right now she wouldn't do very well because she hasn't been given very good tools, but I think she has the willingness to try.

[Defrauder]

The thought of Jessa signing autographs is just so fucked up.  Famous for being famous.  It's just so stupid.  'Jessa gets married', 'Jessa gets pregnant'. 'Jessa tries to cook'.  Everybody in the world has lives too.  I mean really.  Other people get marred, have children, cook and generally do a lot damn more than she has ever done.  WTF is she signing autographs for?  

Edited July 29, 2015 by Defrauder

[Marigold]

I was raised Fundamentalist (lite bc I went to college etc). I was taught that sex is supposed to be pleasurable to both people. Women should be available to their husband assuming they feel well etc.  And husbands should always be kind and thoughtful. Sex shouldn't happen if someone didn't want it to. I NEVER heard men should have it when they want it and the wife has no say in the matter.  I did hear that sometimes women don't need sex as much as a man and to be mindful of that. I constantly heard that men should treat their wives well and love them like Christ loves His church.  

Honestly, I never thought that was bad advice.  :)

I never really learned too much about orgasms and stuff like that.  I guess I was supposed to figure that out? It's been so long, I might have forgotten. Never heard if any particular sex act was forbidden either. Again, I guess I was left to figure it out. 

Married 23 years with five kids...we figured it out OK. 

[Churchhoney]

'Jessa tries to cook'. 

 

This is my favorite. 

[AnJen]

I hope this question isn't inappropriate, but regarding the sexual knowledge that the Duggars, or any Gothardites, might or might not have upon getting married, I do have to ask:

 

How likely is it really that kids growing up in these families don't masturbate? I mean...it's a normal human urge, and pretty much everyone does it. My own religion preaches against masturbation (any sexual contact outside of marriage, really), and so as an adult I choose to abstain from that, but as a kid and a teen that obviously happened, regardless of what I'd been taught about it...and from everything I know about human sexuality, that's pretty much the norm.

 

I find it almost impossible to believe that this isn't the case for the vast majority of kids/teens, regardless of religious beliefs. Perhaps this would be a better question for the religion thread, but it seems to fit best here in terms of the conversation?

Edited July 29, 2015 by AnJen

[Defrauder]

The problem with masturbation in that house, besides the obvious rules against such a thing, is that all of the kids sleep dorm style.  So you have all of the girls from Josie on up sleeping in the same room, and all of the boys from Jackson on up sleeping in the same room.  I think that's what the prayer closet is used for in my personal opinion, although maybe they could use a bathroom if it's available.  Either way, because they are soooo modest, they all sleep together - so not going to be easy.  

[Skittl1321]

 

How likely is it really that kids growing up in these families don't masturbate? I mean...it's a normal human urge, and pretty much everyone does it.

It wouldn't surprise me if many of them don't.   First- the privacy thing.

Second- it might not occur to them to do it. Especially the girls.

 

I grew up in a not that religious family and I didn't even know masturbating was a thing until I got to college.  I wasn't a sexually repressed teenager, I did fairly normal teenage things (though not with many people); just not that. Maybe I would have if I knew it was a 'thing'....  I remember guys in high school had bets on who could go the longest without (like they all threw $20 in and winner got the money; I always assumed it was liar got the money)- I didn't know girls did that though. They certainly didn't talk about it the way guys did!

 

Of course, the Duggars might have even more awareness since they are constantly told how evil things are. To know something is evil, you need to know what it is.

[mizkat]

The thought of Jessa signing autographs is just so fucked up.  Famous for being famous.

 

There are lots of people in our culture who are famous for being famous. ITA it's a disturbing trend. Would be nice to see that fame put to an altruistic use, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[Marigold]

I say this seriously, what does Jessa talk about?

Whether you are a fan or a hater, that's irrelevant. 

WHAT does she talk about? 

I truly cannot think of one thing that she could say that is interesting or new or educational or funny.

 

She learned to cook? She is pregnant? Likes Chic-Fil-A? Has long hair? 

How does she fill a 30 minute talk? 

 

Does anyone know?

 

Not a fan of Jim Bob or Michelle but at least they have some life experience to chat about even if it's nuts.  

Jessa? I'm totally blank (and so is she!)

Edited July 29, 2015 by Marigold

[Ljohnson1987]

I wonder if Jessa stares zombie like at Bin while she's signing autographs.

[Ljohnson1987]

Also, why is she traveling when she's 38 weeks pregnant? This reminds me of when Anna went to Niagara Falls when she was super pregnant with Michael. Come on, Jessa. I bet Jana goes with her, to act as the midwife.

[Churchhoney]

I say this seriously, what does Jessa talk about?

Whether you are a fan or a hater, that's irrelevant. 

WHAT does she talk about? 

I truly cannot think of one thing that she could say that is interesting or new or educational or funny.

 

She learned to cook? She is pregnant? Likes Chic-Fil-A? Has long hair? 

How does she fill a 30 minute talk? 

 

Does anyone know?

 

Not a fan of Jim Bob or Michelle but at least they have some life experience to chat about even if it's nuts.  

Jessa? I'm totally blank (and so is she!)

 

I'm blank, too. I expect a lot of time is taken up by audience giggles every time she casts a side glance at Ben or something. (That gives him a reason for being there, too!)

[BitterApple]

Also, why is she traveling when she's 38 weeks pregnant?

Gotta get that money, honey! Bin isn't doing jack with his Associate's and we know Blessa needs to be kept in Uggs and MacBooks. Apparently there's a market for undereducated, vapid reality stars to give inane lectures on subjects most of us have mastered by 25 or 30. Can't knock her hustle, though.

[Flowers]

They're adults. They're fair game. Sorry.

[JoanArc]

They're adults. They're fair game. Sorry.

And almost parents themselves. Scary.

[DangerousMinds]

The problem with masturbation in that house, besides the obvious rules against such a thing, is that all of the kids sleep dorm style.  So you have all of the girls from Josie on up sleeping in the same room, and all of the boys from Jackson on up sleeping in the same room.  I think that's what the prayer closet is used for in my personal opinion, although maybe they could use a bathroom if it's available.  Either way, because they are soooo modest, they all sleep together - so not going to be easy.

Human biology will ensure that the boys have nocturnal emissions. No getting around those. It's just sad that they are taught to feel guilty and ashamed.

[Bitter Betty]

From the Charlotte Southern Women's Show site. Jessa has stipulated which kinds of questions she will take. To wit: 

 

 

 

 

FWIW, didn't their "relationship" book come out two years ago, and written a year before THAT, long before even Jessa was IN a relationship? I am still wondering what qualifies her to be a relationship expert.  

 

https://southernshows.com/wch/happening/feature/373

 

eta: How is being a first time mom while being onstage any different than being a first time mom off the stage? LOL /grammar nazi

If "life as a newlywed" is open for discussion, I think asking how the revelations that she was molested by her brother affected her marriage and what Ben's reaction was would be totally in bounds, at least.

[Darknight]

The problem with masturbation in that house, besides the obvious rules against such a thing, is that all of the kids sleep dorm style. So you have all of the girls from Josie on up sleeping in the same room, and all of the boys from Jackson on up sleeping in the same room. I think that's what the prayer closet is used for in my personal opinion, although maybe they could use a bathroom if it's available. Either way, because they are soooo modest, they all sleep together - so not going to be easy.

The bathroom is a good place. They have to wash right?

There are lots of people in our culture who are famous for being famous. ITA it's a disturbing trend. Would be nice to see that fame put to an altruistic use, but I'm not holding my breath.

Well the Kardashians do have to "work" for their money. What do the Duggars do but preach about Jesus.

[Churchhoney]

The bathroom is a good place. They have to wash right?

 

Definitely it's good in some cases, male ones especially, I would guess. But I'm not sure how well it works for young girls who've had the horror of impurity pounded into their heads to learn about how their bodies respond to touch and experience pleasure, though. They're living under surveillance and a Stasi-type system, as well. Which is inhibiting. I once resorted to an upper room in a public library, which felt safer to me than any place in my own home.

 

So I expect that Duggar kids -- girls especially since their beliefs leave them no room to be sexual since they're actually assigned to keep boys from being sexual -- may feel their parents' presence pretty strongly in the TTH bathrooms. I expect this was quite true of the older kids, though now that JB and M have checked out more, it's likely less true of the younger ones. They have to contend with the sheer numbers of people on site, though.

 

Plus, when we're talking about learning your body -- well, you need more than a quick guilty feel up of yourself to get any real kind of preparation for helping a partner help you, so to speak.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

The problem with masturbation in that house, besides the obvious rules against such a thing, is that all of the kids sleep dorm style. So you have all of the girls from Josie on up sleeping in the same room, and all of the boys from Jackson on up sleeping in the same room. I think that's what the prayer closet is used for in my personal opinion, although maybe they could use a bathroom if it's available. Either way, because they are soooo modest, they all sleep together - so not going to be easy.

I think the boys might have an understanding. In the flea market finale episode, an older howler slept on the floor next to Joe's bed, probably because the floor won't shake like a bunk bed. Edited July 30, 2015 by Kokapetl

[JoanArc]

There was that maybe false story someone posted on gawker about Jim Bob catching a boy masturbating (locked in the bathroom) on a filming day. I could go either way with it being true.

[Marigold]

If anyone has a link to a video of Jessa doing one of these speaking engagments, PLEASE post it!

[becca3891]

Also, why is she traveling when she's 38 weeks pregnant? This reminds me of when Anna went to Niagara Falls when she was super pregnant with Michael. Come on, Jessa. I bet Jana goes with her, to act as the midwife.

Jessa isn't due until November 1, so she's not even 30 weeks.

 

There was that maybe false story someone posted on gawker about Jim Bob catching a boy masturbating (locked in the bathroom) on a filming day. I could go either way with it being true.

Well, for years I thought the "sin in the camp" story rang true, and it was. I can well believe this one is true too. They directly talk about the wrongs of masturbation in one of their books, and it is a big deal in their world. My money is on the shower being a popular location, unless they have to have accountability buddies there too. The boys, anyway -- in their world, I don't think they think it's a temptation at all for girls. Remember their favorite talking point, that romance novels are to women what porn is to men. I will agree, though, with the person a few posts up, that it's probably a stronger biological need for boys/men, and most likely discover it sooner and would have a harder time controlling it. Not at all saying women don't have sex drives, of course.

[mizkat]

Jessa isn't due until November 1, so she's not even 30 weeks.

 

Really? I thought she was due a lot earlier. Wow, this is the longest pregnancy in the history of pregnancies. 

[GEML]

Ok, this is probably too graphic, but a lot of Fundy girls learned about madturbation because of an untreated (and hence itchy) yeast infection. Given how unwashed the Duggar girls looked....

I'm going to say yes, they knew. And they learned to be, in Jessa's words, very sly.

[GeeGolly]

Even if Jessa and the other kids had time to explore their bodies, I would still think it would be kept to a minimum. How pleasurable can it be when one thinks they are sinning and then know they have to run to mom & dad and confess?

[Churchhoney]

Even if Jessa and the other kids had time to explore their bodies, I would still think it would be kept to a minimum. How pleasurable can it be when one thinks they are sinning and then know they have to run to mom & dad and confess?

 

Exactly. And there's clearly a mood of surveillance around that place. JB and M proudly note, for example, that boys and young men whom they suspect of looking at the "wrong" stuff on their phones immediately get stuck with phones that won't show you anything but phone numbers. And desires that are satisfied by masturbation aren't being "righteously fulfilled," I expect. So major sneakiness is required.

 

In addition, we started this off talking about useful sexual knowledge that the girls might have when they marry. And I can't help but think about the fact that female Duggars, especially, are confined to their parents' house. As someone above mentioned, the boys fairly frequently seem to sleep on the floor, which obviously is a help with shaking beds and so on. But the young women we're talking about are sleeping in the same room -- and even in the same bed -- as their much-younger siblings, right up until marriage -- well into their 20s in some cases.

 

A common story I hear from women who aren't in their situation is that they became more exploratory with masturbation -- and in some cases only just discovered it, some claim-- when they got to college or moved into their first apartment or rented room on their own -- usually at around age 18 or so. Jana's 26. Jill was, what, 23 when she married? Etc. They may know enough to briefly squeeze their thighs together to get a good feeling, but I'd be astonished if they're learning enough to advise Ben and Derick about how to please them, for example. Especially for women, as far as I know, masturbation to orgasm requires a certain level of comfort and relaxation into the process, and I can't imagine that any Duggar girl feels very relaxed about a sexual matter in that house. 

 

So I'd say -- Yeah, they all probably have a rudimentary knowledge of how things work. But they're going to start their adult sex lives at square one, even if they don't start them till they're 30, I expect. No dating. And vanishingly little experience with knowing -- or, heaven forbid, feeling comfortable with their own bodies -- either.

 

To be clear, I don't think this is necessarily tragic and it's hardly unprecedented. But it's just one more way that they're all children in ways that other people their ages are less so, I think.