The White Princess - General Discussion

[iMonrey]

Quote

I am having a very hard time with this.  I was so taken with the White Queen, and the cast/characters, that this just seems "off".  Everyone' personality has changed with the recasting and not in a good way. 

I think I benefit from not having seen The White Queen since it originally aired, so I don't remember a whole lot about it beyond the basic story about Elizabeth Woodville and Edward IV. Can't remember too many of the original actors. That said, I'm having a tough time trying to follow some of the family connections, so thanks for explaining who the Duchess of Burgundy is CindyBee. I also cannot remember George of Clarence and Warwick's daughter having any children. 

Did men really have shiny leather pants in 1486?

Edited May 1, 2017 by iMonrey

[CindyBee]

Quote

I also cannot remember George of Clarence and Warwick's daughter having any children. 

 

George & Isobel had four children but only 3 were part of the story of the White Queen:

baby #1 dies cause Isobel goes into early labor due to some Elizabeth Woodville "witchcraft". 

Margaret is born and is shown in a few scenes with her parents

then Isobel has Teddy and dies due to more "witchcraft".    But historically, Teddy was their 3rd child;  its a second son that causes Isobel's death and he too dies suddenly, causing his father to loose his mind and eventually his life when he goes crazy.

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, NYCNJbear06 said:

I wonder if she was not counting Edward since he didn’t die in war or a battle for the crown like the others – Papa York, Edmund, George and Richard, maybe those were the 4 she was counting.  

Maybe she wasn't counting George since he didn't die in battle but was executed for treason.

[Moxie Cat]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Did men really have shiny leather pants in 1486?

I have learned from the Tudors and Reign that yes, they did. :)

Lizzie will get much further with Henry, and be able to win against his mother, if she just convinces him that she loves him (or at least isn't plotting to kill him, heh!) I hope that the last scene showed she realized that, even if she's secretly not 100% genuine about it. 

And it's sad to say, but Henry isn't wrong in locking Teddy away to a certain extent. One could argue he could be kept under nicer conditions. But given the overthrows of the recent decades and the existing support for the Yorks, Henry had to fear those who would plot to put Teddy on the throne. And Elizabeth DID coordinate the assassination attempt, right? Lizzie is lucky her mother is simply at an abbey!

Margaret Plantagenet had an interesting adult life. I would encourage those who don't know anything about her to look up some details. At this point in the story, she couldn't guess that

Spoiler

In her later years, she would be beheaded by (crazy later-years) Henry VIII, basically as revenge for one of her sons serving the Pope. Supposedly it was a horrible, messy execution. She was almost certainly innocent herself of any secret Catholicism and proclaimed her innocence right to the end.

[BooBear]

4 hours ago, MV713 said:

I am having a very hard time with this.  I was so taken with the White Queen, and the cast/characters, that this just seems "off".  Everyone' personality has changed with the recasting and not in a good way. 

Me too. Henry's mom is Catlin Stark and it is particularly annoying her outfits. It is just too much with a new actress. I also feel a little annoyed that it seems like the show sort of lied to us in the previews. Presenting war between Lizzie and Henry but that hasn't really happened. A lot of quotes weren't about Lizzy. So she comes off "weaker" than I was expecting but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Just I hate to be set up for something and then find out they went out of their way to mislead.

My question is what is Burgundy? It isn't France and it isn't England. In terms of the rant that the Duchess gave about  Henry had lost nothing.. I wish someone had pointed out that with the exception of Richard, Henry wasn't responsible for any of it.  I guess I don't like the way it seems to be going because it makes another woman leader ruled by her feelings and emotions. 

Henry I think answered my question last week about him seemingly coming to the throne for no purpose and with no plan...and I guess he did. And for kicks and giggles he also pointed out he knew nothing about being a King because Lizzy was goading him with his ignorance.  Henry has to rely on his mother and advisors. But Lizzy could free him from that. 

I don't think we saw anything of the Duchess of Burgundy in the White Queen. I think maybe the first episode she is standing with Richard and George when Edward introduces them to Elizabeth.

[nodorothyparker]

Burgundy was a duchy that had just been officially annexed by France upon the death of Margaret's husband, the last duke Charles the Bold, a few years before. France as we know it took hundreds of years to come together from a number of mostly autonomous duchies and won't really be a strong unified country for some time yet.  Because Margaret was a York daughter, Burgundy would be a hotbed of Yorkist sympathizers and a thorn in Henry's side for pretty much as long as Margaret lived. 

Henry was raised largely in exile in Brittany, another duchy that warred off and on with France before being annexed into it.  Between Margaret Beauford pushing his cause in England and the quasi Lancastrian court in exile with Henry and the later support of the French, the entire sum of the plan was to get Henry on the throne in the same way that if Teddy wasn't locked in the Tower and the Yorkists could get their hands on him, they would be chomping at the bit to place him on the throne regardless of what he might actually want or his fitness for it.  We're still in the age where getting him there would be considered God's will with the assumption that that will would extend to him knowing what to do once he got there.

[Snow Apple]

I haven't watched The White Queen yet. Why do you all call him Car Park Richard?

[Haleth]

24 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

I haven't watched The White Queen yet. Why do you all call him Car Park Richard?

Poor Richard's remains were discovered a few years ago under a parking lot. There is an interesting documentary about digging him up and verifying that the old bones are his.

[Snow Apple]

^ Thanks!

HA! I'm sure this will now pop into my head every time I hear about Richard III.

[Pogojoco]

1 hour ago, Snow Apple said:

^ Thanks!

HA! I'm sure this will now pop into my head every time I hear about Richard III.

The story of finding the bones and the DNA testing to confirm whose bones is fascinating. They found a descendant who was an antiques dealer in Canada. His mother had immigrated after WWII and was a "16th-generation great-niece of the king in the same direct maternal line" through Richard III's older sister Anne of York. They also identified him based on contemporary physical descriptions of him- the curved spine, for instance. They could also identify the damage done to his body and how he died. 

 

This episode of the show was a little boring. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't think we saw anything of the Duchess of Burgundy in the White Queen. 

I don't even remember them mentioning that Edward IV, George and Richard III had any sisters. There was a lot made of "the three brothers" but I don't recall any mention of their sisters.

[IntrovertRed]

When Edward brought Elizabeth to the court, he actually did introduce her to his sister right when before/after she met Richard/George.  Then later didn't Warwick escort her to her wedding in burgundy which pissed Warwick off even more?  Does make you wonder how things would be different if Edward hadn't married Elizabeth.

[CindyBee]

2 minutes ago, KLJ said:

When Edward brought Elizabeth to the court, he actually did introduce her to his sister right when before/after she met Richard/George.  Then later didn't Warwick escort her to her wedding in burgundy which pissed Warwick off even more?  Does make you wonder how things would be different if Edward hadn't married Elizabeth.

Its hard to say what would have happened but most historians do believe that Elizabeth was a very poor choice for Edward to make mainly cause of her very large and very ambitious family.   Hello, 19 year old John Woodville and his 65 year old bride.    Then once Warwick starts to loose his influence to all these Woodvilles, disaster was waiting and you get more chaos and death. 

There's a pretty good 4 part BBC series based on Dan Jones' book on the War of Roses that delves into the stories covered in the White Queen--you can find it on Youtube.   Its pro-Warwick/Margaret Buford so if you are a fan of Edward and Car Park Richard, watch with one eye!

[Skycatcher]

I was glad to see that they finally sprung for a few "new" clothes for the younger Elizabeth.  I was thoroughly sick of that  turquoise lace-up top with the gold skirt.  She's worn that almost exclusively  for the first two episodes, regardless of the fact that the ops covered a substantial amount of time. .  Then in this episode I saw the Duchess of Burgundy in what I thought was the same outfit!  Turquoise and gold!   But, whew, no lace-ups.  They must be putting all their costume money into the men's clothes.

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, CindyBee said:

Its hard to say what would have happened but most historians do believe that Elizabeth was a very poor choice for Edward to make mainly cause of her very large and very ambitious family.  

One of the things I didn't like about the White Queen was that it seemed obvious to me the damage Elizabeth caused to her husband and her country and she never seemed one ounce to own any of that. To me that says she really she was selfish and thought that she should be queen and darn what happened to anyone else or her country.  I suppose that was presented in the best way in that series but now she is coming off extremely badly.

Isn't it proof that Henry's mom didn't kill the York boy because Arthur is healthy? It points it back to Anne Neville who had her whole family take a bad turn after the death of Elizabeth's boy.

[IntrovertRed]

16 hours ago, BooBear said:

Isn't it proof that Henry's mom didn't kill the York boy because Arthur is healthy? It points it back to Anne Neville who had her whole family take a bad turn after the death of Elizabeth's boy.

Spoiler

But Arthur also died in his teens and unexpectedly, which I attribute to the curse, well, according to this show anyway.

I found Margaret's stepdaughter dying very sad, but are they really implying that Elizabeth had something to do with it during her tantrum when she knocked over the statue?  

Edited May 3, 2017 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tag added.

[Kata01]

With all her scheming and machinations, what exactly is Elizabeth Woodville's endgame here, besides knocking Henry (and his mother) off the throne? Make Teddy, who is unable to rule, King? Which Yorkist would rule through Teddy? I see nothing but in-fighting as each York jockeys for power. Then, on the off-chance her son Richard is alive, does she then push Teddy off the throne in favor of her son? More war and bloodshed. And what of Prince Arthur, her grandson? Lock him in the Tower?                     

Her scheming and plotting does not seem to go beyond vengeance against Margaret and Henry. At least with the Tudors in power, there is stability for the country, especially with the Tudor/York union of Henry/Lizzie. 

[NYCNJbear06]

I guess that is the beauty and curse (no pun intended) of the curse it can apply to all the players in the game – Anne Neville and Margaret Beaufort.  If Anne killed the princes in the tower then by her only son dying that would fulfill it.  If it was Margaret it would take longer to fulfill but eventually it would.  I think the fine details of the curse was that there would be no surviving male heirs until the line dies out

Spoiler

which did happen to the Tudors over several generations -  Henry VII’s sons – Arthur dying before he could produce an heir and Henry VIII although having a bastard son and lawful son they both died before producing an heir and through his daughters Mary and Elizabeth not producing heirs the Tudor line dies out and fulfilling the curse over time.

KLJ, Just take Margaret of Burgundy’s step daughter dying as Elizabeth “mystically” lashes out as creative license.  Historically, the stepdaughter actually died years before. So for dramatic effect they moved the date of her death.  I remember in the WQ Elizabeth’s mother Jaquetta saying (paraphrasing) Be careful with magic because you can’t control it.  It is a curious choice for them to position that Elizabeth is responsible for her step daughter-in-law’s death being there is no reason for her to see Burgundy as an enemy. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by SilverStormm
Spoiler tag added.

[Moxie Cat]

2 hours ago, Kata01 said:

With all her scheming and machinations, what exactly is Elizabeth Woodville's endgame here, besides knocking Henry (and his mother) off the throne? Make Teddy, who is unable to rule, King?

I think her ultimate endgame is to make her living son King. She has no confirmation that he's dead. As Edward's legitimate heir, he has much more right to the throne than Henry, in her eyes. I think she would use Teddy as a placeholder, but I doubt he's her goal.

Does she know that Margaret is (likely) responsible for her older son's death? Or does she think it was Richard? I can't remember what was said in the earlier series. If she thinks it was Margaret, that's another very valid reason for her to plot against Henry.

[CindyBee]

Its been awhile since I watched the episode that deals with the death of Edward V and his "brother" but I THINK Elizabeth Woodville believes the killer to be Margaret Beaufort/Lord Stanley thus her curse on the Tudors that Lizzie is now dealing with.  

And add me to the list that doesn't quite understand what Elizabeth's end game is for all the plotting she's doing against Henry.   Guess she just wants to "win" and doesn't care who gets hurt along the way, including baby Arthur.  

Edited May 3, 2017 by CindyBee

[KBrownie]

58 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

I think her ultimate endgame is to make her living son King. She has no confirmation that he's dead. As Edward's legitimate heir, he has much more right to the throne than Henry, in her eyes. I think she would use Teddy as a placeholder, but I doubt he's her goal.

Does she know that Margaret is (likely) responsible for her older son's death? Or does she think it was Richard? I can't remember what was said in the earlier series. If she thinks it was Margaret, that's another very valid reason for her to plot against Henry.

Yeah, Elizabeth's reasons for being pissed off are perfectly valid.  I don't really understand the questioning about why she's doing what she's doing.  She believes, correctly, that Margaret Beaufort, killed her innocent son and planned to kill the other.  All so that her son Henry could have the throne.  What makes her son's life and claim to the throne any more important than the dead princes'?  Everyone seems to just accept that as fact and be okay with it.  Even Lizzie at this point.  Which is somewhat understandable give her position.  I get that Henry is one of the main focal points of this particular show, but him going around all indignant and shocked that people want him dead and are trying to kill him is laughable considering he knows what went down for him to be able to ascend to the throne.  Or am I supposed to think that he has no idea about the princes in the tower?  

Now, Elizabeth may be going about it all wrong, but her pain at the death of her son and quest for revenge against the woman who ordered it is perfectly understandable.  Margaret Beaufort is a hypocrite.  She's okay with killing kids to put her son on the throne, but someone killing her son, who's now an active participant in everything, to put a York heir on the throne would be the most unjust thing ever.

Say what you will about Elizabeth, call her ambitious, whatever, she didn't have to kill any innocents (yes, the curse does, but that was after she was queen) to become queen.  Edward wanted to marry her.  She didn't force him.  They had children, who according to established customs, were next in line after their father died.  Until Margaret Beaufort in her delusions killed a couple of kids so she could get what she wanted.  I just wondered would she have killed Richard's son too had he lived.  Why doesn't she just kill all the York offspring and be done.  Maggie, Teddy, her new BFF Cecily, the three little girls?  Lizzie has no use for them now.  Elizabeth also didn't have to do much manipulation for Lizzie to be queen.  Henry and Margaret needed her to bring any legitimacy to his reign.  

[Emmeline]

19 hours ago, Skycatcher said:

I was glad to see that they finally sprung for a few "new" clothes for the younger Elizabeth.  I was thoroughly sick of that  turquoise lace-up top with the gold skirt.  She's worn that almost exclusively  for the first two episodes, regardless of the fact that the ops covered a substantial amount of time. .  Then in this episode I saw the Duchess of Burgundy in what I thought was the same outfit!  Turquoise and gold!   But, whew, no lace-ups.  They must be putting all their costume money into the men's clothes.

I have also thought that both The White Queen and The White Princess seem to have had a very limited costume budget.  Most of the females wore the same few dresses throughout the season.

[918lux]

Just now, Emmeline said:

I have also thought that both The White Queen and The White Princess seem to have had a very limited costume budget.  Most of the females wore the same few dresses throughout the season.

I think that is partly budget, partly accuracy.  In those times, women would have only had a few dresses, even royalty.  Even in Downton Abbey you see the upstairs characters wearing the same dresses over and over.

 

I am kind of liking this series- I loved the books, even if they are a sensationalized and hyper-sexual.  It's fairly well documented that Henry VII and Elizabeth were, at the very least, fond of each other, so I am glad it's moving more in that direction.  I don't think that the younger daughters were kept at the Abbey with the dowager queen, though.

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, NYCNJbear06 said:

 I think the fine details of the curse was that there would be no surviving male heirs until the line dies out

I was not aware of the "hidden facts" interestingly enough until last night after the white princess I happened on "Elizabeth I" the movie and Wolf Hall. So now (with the internet's help) I am all caught up.  Henry's mom did it. 

[Kata01]

I agree on an emotional level, Elizabeth's need for vengeance against Margaret is more than understandable. In reality, however, at this point in the story her daughter is Henry's queen, her grandson Henry's heir, Teddy indefinitely locked in the Tower due to her machinations...nothing happens in a vacuum so any revenge against Margaret/Henry at this stage affects Lizzie, Arthur, Teddy, Cecily, Maggie, and her other little girls locked away with her. As depicted on the show thus far, she doesn't seem to be considering anything or anyone beyond her drive for revenge. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E4 promo:

[JustCrazy]

On 4/24/2017 at 2:53 PM, MichelleAK said:

I guess in this one matter, she wants to use the correct terminology for the time. (The "Wars of the Roses" wasn't coined until the 19th century, IIRC.) However, considering all of the other ahistorical stuff, I'm not sure why she bothered.

I'm no fan of Phillipa Gregory.  She plays fast and loose with history and then insists it's fact without any supporting evidence.   Her book on the Boylen sisters was pure nonsense.  

This show is nice, but not great.  It's a nice filler till Game of Thrones, but do not take anything other than the broadest facts of history, at face value.  Phillipa seems to exist in a world of pure fantasy, which would be fine if she didn't insist her fiction is historically accurate.

[MichelleAK]

2 hours ago, JustCrazy said:

I'm no fan of Phillipa Gregory.  She plays fast and loose with history and then insists it's fact without any supporting evidence.   Her book on the Boylen sisters was pure nonsense.  

This show is nice, but not great.  It's a nice filler till Game of Thrones, but do not take anything other than the broadest facts of history, at face value.  Phillipa seems to exist in a world of pure fantasy, which would be fine if she didn't insist her fiction is historically accurate.

Exactly. I'm just enjoying it as a soap opera based on history, not as history itself (rather like The Tudors and Rome and The Borgias). For actual history of that time period, I can go to my copies of Dan Jones's or Sarah Gristwood's books.

[IndianPaintbrush]

On 5/4/2017 at 6:25 AM, Kata01 said:

I agree on an emotional level, Elizabeth's need for vengeance against Margaret is more than understandable. In reality, however, at this point in the story her daughter is Henry's queen, her grandson Henry's heir, Teddy indefinitely locked in the Tower due to her machinations...nothing happens in a vacuum so any revenge against Margaret/Henry at this stage affects Lizzie, Arthur, Teddy, Cecily, Maggie, and her other little girls locked away with her. As depicted on the show thus far, she doesn't seem to be considering anything or anyone beyond her drive for revenge. 

Agreed.  Elizabeth Woodville doesn't know her second son is even alive at this point, and her grandson is now heir to the throne.  I understand she wants revenge against the Tudors, but making Lizzie marry and bear Henry's child probably wasn't the smartest way to do that.  Of course Lizzie is going to feel torn between her mother and her son.

That's what makes me believe Elizabeth Woodville never intended to challenge Henry's claim to the throne in real life. Lizzie had a strong claim to the throne in her own right, and probably could have mounted an opposition to Henry if she hadn't married him. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by IndianPaintbrush

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

Agreed.  Elizabeth Woodville doesn't know her second son is even alive at this point, and her grandson is now heir to the throne.  I understand she wants revenge against the Tudors, but making Lizzie marry and bear Henry's child probably wasn't the smartest way to do that.  Of course Lizzie is going to feel torn between her mother and her son.

I mean that is my issue. She is putting her daughter and grandson at risk.  And they aren't just "people" they are the wife and male heir of the King. That is a lot of power right there. Especially if used smartly. Instead Elizabeth seems to be taking a long shot that is only hurting Lizzy - pushing her away - and hurting all the rest of her kids and her. Being stuck in an Abby. For what? The chance to get her son (if she has one)  made King where promptly the Tutors and Lancastrian forces will start gunning for him until he is killed?  And we start the whole thing over again?

Also at the end of the White Queen (where she suspected Henry's mom was responsible for her son's death) she seemed much more concerned with ending the warring and making her son safe not getting him involved.  She offered up Lizzy against her wishes - to end the war.   At the end of the white queen both she and Henry's mom seemed to figure out that this war had to end and, I thought, that was the thinking of engaging Henry and Lizzy when clearly doing so helped Henry to defeat Richard.

[iMonrey]

Quote

That's what makes me believe Elizabeth Woodville never intended to challenge Henry's claim to the throne in real life.

Historically, Elizabeth Woodville worked alongside Margaret Beaufort to put Henry Tudor on the throne. It was the two of them who plotted to have their children marry to strengthen Henry's claim to the throne. The idea that she would now be Margaret Beaufort and Henry's adversary is a lot of fictional claptrap based around the idea that one of Woodville's sons "escaped." Just more of Philippa Gregory's revisionist history fantasy.

According to Wikipedia: "Scholars differ about why Dowager Queen Elizabeth spent the last five years of her life living at Bermondsey Abbey." So much of the story is speculation.

[BooBear]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Historically, Elizabeth Woodville worked alongside Margaret Beaufort to put Henry Tudor on the throne. It was the two of them who plotted to have their children marry to strengthen Henry's claim to the throne. The idea that she would now be Margaret Beaufort and Henry's adversary is a lot of fictional claptrap based around the idea that one of Woodville's sons "escaped."

Good to see that real people have more sense than this plot.  From a pure writing perspective I would have thought it would have been more interesting for both Lizzy and her mom to have extreme conflict from their "son" showing up and claiming the throne (if it is even her son) against her daughter.  So yes.. lame claptrap. 

[Enero]

This show seems to go round and round in circles. Elizabeth plots, that plot fails. She starts the plot again. Lizzie begs Henry to trust her, but he whines about she and no one else being on his side, before sort of coming around to her in the end. Margaret continues her controlling hypocrisy, and Maggie whines about Teddy being in the tower almost the entire time. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Did anything of value happen in this episode, besides the York women being married off? And even that was of little significance. Maybe it'll mean more in later episodes but we only have three left. This episode started and ended pretty much in the same place.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

Did anything of value happen in this episode, besides the York women being married off? And even that was of little significance. Maybe it'll mean more in later episodes but we only have three left. This episode started and ended pretty much in the same place.

Boy I was sort of surprised. I thought this did make major progress. All the "make war" stuff finally came to a head. I do believe the Henry is growing to trust Lizzy more and more but obviously it is a hard thing to really embrace because of the fact that Lizzy is surrounded by his enemies. I feel like he could be getting over his paranoia because he finally got war, won anyway, and with every challenge that fails Dowager Elizabeth loses power. So let her keep writing letters... people will get sick of her soon.  I also feel like this was the first episode without a time lapse so it sort of continued last episode.  From my count, the Yorks are losing, badly. Henry has a son, Henry is married to a York, and now, he won his first challenge easily.    

I was happy for Cecily. I thought it was sad last week how desperate she was for attention. But it does look like she got a pretty good situation.  

[Haleth]

I'm reading the Alison Weir book about Elizabeth and found it interesting that

Spoiler

she was long engaged to the dauphin of France and Cecily was engaged as a child to a prince of Scotland and could have ended up a queen herself.  Politics being what it is, neither engagement lasted.  

I don't know if I can write something like this without spoiler tags?  It's something that has no effect on the show.

[nodorothyparker]

There was progress in this episode.  The sides have been endlessly plotting and talking about war since the first episode, and Henry really needed that win at the battle of Stoke for a lot of people to see him as more than a usurper who happened to get lucky in initially winning the crown.  Henry's reign was dogged by allegedly found York boys, and as we saw at the end of the episode Lambert Simnel was only the first and most obvious pretender.   Considering that this telling of events has Elizabeth reaching Wile E. Coyote levels of plotting and plotting and plotting from her abbey cubbyhole, it's quite an act of faith for Henry to turn away from Margaret Beaufort's immediate go to of wanting to execute everyone who crosses her boy and come around to believing Lizzie is sincere and that the Yorkists have shut her firmly out of the loop.  It's funny that the three York women who are most removed, with Elizabeth busily scribbling away and Margaret and Cecily digging up another boy in Burgundy to throw at the Tudors, are hellbent on continuing never ending war while the York women who have to actually live among this new court, Lizzie, Cecily, and Maggie, are mostly just over it and want to move on.

I know a lot of interpretations of their story have at least a great fondness or flirtation between Jasper and Margaret Beaufort, but WTH was that proposing to annul her fourth marriage so they could be together?  Jasper was Edmund Tudor's brother, which automatically made him off limits without papal intercession as we'll eventually see in the Arthur-Henry VIII-Katherine of Aragon mess.  Margaret and Jasper would have certainly known that, and in any case they likely would have wanted to avoid any appearance of impropriety when they were so fresh in establishing a new dynasty that they sold as God's will.  I guess we're supposed to see it as another example of how both characters basically lived their lives for duty in protecting and advancing Henry but it comes across as a nonsensical time waster.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

There was progress in this episode.  The sides have been endlessly plotting and talking about war since the first episode, and Henry really needed that win at the battle of Stoke for a lot of people to see him as more than a usurper who happened to get lucky in initially winning the crown.  Henry's reign was dogged by allegedly found York boys, and as we saw at the end of the episode Lambert Simnel was only the first and most obvious pretender.   Considering that this telling of events has Elizabeth reaching Wile E. Coyote levels of plotting and plotting and plotting from her abbey cubbyhole, it's quite an act of faith for Henry to turn away from Margaret Beaufort's immediate go to of wanting to execute everyone who crosses her boy and come around to believing Lizzie is sincere and that the Yorkists have shut her firmly out of the loop.  It's funny that the three York women who are most removed, with Elizabeth busily scribbling away and Margaret and Cecily digging up another boy in Burgundy to throw at the Tudors, are hellbent on continuing never ending war while the York women who have to actually live among this new court, Lizzie, Cecily, and Maggie, are mostly just over it and want to move on.

I know a lot of interpretations of their story have at least a great fondness or flirtation between Jasper and Margaret Beaufort, but WTH was that proposing to annul her fourth marriage so they could be together?  Jasper was Edmund Tudor's brother, which automatically made him off limits without papal intercession as we'll eventually see in the Arthur-Henry VIII-Katherine of Aragon mess.  Margaret and Jasper would have certainly known that, and in any case they likely would have wanted to avoid any appearance of impropriety when they were so fresh in establishing a new dynasty that they sold as God's will.  I guess we're supposed to see it as another example of how both characters basically lived their lives for duty in protecting and advancing Henry but it comes across as a nonsensical time waster.

Bolding mine- I agree with your post (so many good points) but this one takes the cake, and my interpretation of "why" is that Lizzie, Cecily (the younger) and Maggie, may be heartbroken by the things that have happened, but they are still young women with most of their lives ahead of them. They would rather leave behind the "glory" of their name and live happy lives (or as happy as can be expected) within the status quo, as Maggie told her new husband- she didn't want her name. The older York women probably feel they have NOTHING but the legacy and they will move heaven and earth to set things "right". 

The writers did a good job regarding Elizabeth Woodville's "seeing" that Arthur would not be king, he won't be, his younger brother Henry will BUT Elizabeth in her wishfulness concludes that it means HER son will retake then throne, rather than a more statistically likely outcome of 1. Arthur having a younger brother to inherit (which happened) or 2. Arthur dying before Henry VII yet leaving his son to succeed him (the throne passing from grandfather to grandson- which wasn't rare). Elizabeth W is so hell bent on putting a York king on the throne she is endangering the safety of all her girls. 

[Pogojoco]

The "grownups" in this are so annoying. It makes no sense that after all that war they want more war. 

[Autumn]

The thing that makes Elizabeth's plotting in this series so ridiculous is that it is so blatant that it puts her own life in jeopardy.  I think any actions the real Elizabeth took would have been more subtle.  She would have wanted to insure the safety of her living children.

It wasn't just Margaret B. who wanted Teddy eliminated.  All the noblemen who fought for Henry would have their lives and property forfeited if Henry were removed from the throne.  As sad as it is, if Teddy wasn't in the tower he would probably have been killed by one of Henry's supporters.

I am glad that Maggie ended up with a decent husband.  She is the most sympathetic of all of the women.  But no one stayed safe for long around the Tudors.  Both Lizzie and Cecily knew as the two eldest daughters of a King that they would be married as part of a political alliance.  Lizzie was able to produce a male heir right away so she is safe unless she gets caught in a plot.  Cecily ended up with a handsome rich guy which is all she seemed to care about.  Maggie should have been married to someone of a higher rank but someone of a higher rank might have been persuaded to help put Teddy on the throne with the prospect of becoming his Regent. 

[WatchrTina]

On 5/1/2017 at 10:22 PM, Pogojoco said:

Richard III's older sister Anne of York

Has this York sibling been mentioned in either the White Queen or the White Princess? She was the oldest of the siblings (according to Wikipedia) but I think she's been wholly ignored by this series.

I also know how poor Margaret Plantagenet's life will ultimately end but I have high hopes that for the duration this show, at least, her suffering is at an end (or as minimized as it can be with her poor feeble-minded brother imprisoned in the Tower.)  Her husband seems kind and they share a desire to be out of the spotlight so perhaps she will have many reasonably happy decades before it all goes to shit.

I do rather like the plot twist of Prince Richard turning up just after Duchess Margaret gets home to Burgundy from her failed attempt to rally the York loyalists behind a fake Teddy Plantagenet / Earl of Warwick.  In the show, Richard is the real deal, but who will believe her now?  I believe in history there were pretenders to the throne that popped up from time to time, claiming to be one or the other of the York princes from the tower, so I guess the show is taking the position that one of those pretenders was the real deal but by the time he turned up Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy was the princess who cried "Wolf."  I anticipate that she will have a hard time getting anyone to back his claim.

Edited May 8, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Glade]

I can't stand to watch another minute of Margaret Bueafort scowling her way across the screen; I agree that there's nothing tragic about her, she's a toxic religous fundamentalist who spends her time seeing to death of women and children and trying to have young girls married off to the creepiest old men she can find.  Her and the eternally cock-blocked Jasper just look ridiculous every time their affair comes up.  

It doesn't make a lot of sense that Elizabeth Woodville would now want the son of George the Duke of Clarence her sworn enemy (also grandson to Lord Warrick, who was also her greatest enemy while he was alive) to be put on the throne in place of her own daughter and grandson.  If she wanted that, she should never have agreed for Lizzie to marry Henry in the first place. In fact I don't see that her or her own daughters would benefit much at all from that turn of events; she should have told her sister in law (who was mentioned, but never seen in the white queen series) to wait for Richard to turn up before launching a war/rebellion.  At the end of The White Queen she seemed happy to retire from political life at her family's estate, so I don't see why she isn't there now (with guards, under house arrest if need be.)

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

The writers did a good job regarding Elizabeth Woodville's "seeing" that Arthur would not be king, he won't be, his younger brother Henry will BUT Elizabeth in her wishfulness concludes that it means HER son will retake then throne, rather than a more statistically likely outcome of 1. Arthur having a younger brother to inherit (which happened) or 2. Arthur dying before Henry VII yet leaving his son to succeed him (the throne passing from grandfather to grandson- which wasn't rare). Elizabeth W is so hell bent on putting a York king on the throne she is endangering the safety of all her girls. 

I did think that helps explain a little why Elizabeth is so dismissive of Arthur and Lizzy, when they would seem to be a powerhouse that Elizabeth shouldn't be ignoring.  I also feel that she wants Teddy because clearly, Teddy would be a figurehead that the Yorkists could control.  Though she would prefer her son. 

Quote

I can't stand to watch another minute of Margaret Bueafort scowling her way across the screen;

Yes I just fast forward during those parts. Margaret in the white queen was likable even though she was a religious nut. She had vulnerabilities... she didn't walk around looking like Darth Vader. She helped Elizabeth in many ways as a lady in waiting and I would say there was even a bit of a friendship there.  This Margaret is much more of a "bad guy" and not bright. Almost every idea she has is short sighted and vengeful. She is only pushing her son away.

[Haleth]

I think I'll just have to go with "this is fiction, take with a grain of salt" and not worry that it makes no sense or that it really didn't happen that way.

Michelle Fairley has the Maggie B scowl down pat.

[CindyBee]

8 hours ago, Autumn said:

 

I am glad that Maggie ended up with a decent husband.  She is the most sympathetic of all of the women.  But no one stayed safe for long around the Tudors.  Both Lizzie and Cecily knew as the two eldest daughters of a King that they would be married as part of a political alliance.  Lizzie was able to produce a male heir right away so she is safe unless she gets caught in a plot.  Cecily ended up with a handsome rich guy which is all she seemed to care about.  Maggie should have been married to someone of a higher rank but someone of a higher rank might have been persuaded to help put Teddy on the throne with the prospect of becoming his Regent. 

I don't think it was mentioned in the episode that Maggie's husband, even though lower rank is part of Henry's family--his half-cousin so even though he might have been just Sir Richard, it was indeed a good match for her as he could be counted on not to use Maggie.   Lady Margaret might be a evil hypocritical witch but she did well by both Maggie and Cecily in finding them decent husbands from within the family.   

Thought the scene of Maggie's wedding intersperse with the Battle of Stoke was really well done.   

[nodorothyparker]

I loved that Cecily managed to have a bridezilla moment in what very easily could have turned into a full scale riot or slaughter.  "But it's my wedding!"

[absnow54]

I get that Cecily is supposed to be shallow and self absorbed, but she caught on to her mother's play long before Lizzie did. Elizabeth's disregard for her daughters' safety has gotten to the point that when Henry spared her life I was like "ugh, why?" There's such a disconnect between her and The White Queen portrayal. In the White Queen she was sympathetic most of the time, and her shitty actions had clear motivation, here she's just smug and selfish all the time.

6 hours ago, Glade said:

It doesn't make a lot of sense that Elizabeth Woodville would now want the son of George the Duke of Clarence her sworn enemy (also grandson to Lord Warrick, who was also her greatest enemy while he was alive) to be put on the throne in place of her own daughter and grandson.  If she wanted that, she should never have agreed for Lizzie to marry Henry in the first place. In fact I don't see that her or her own daughters would benefit much at all from that turn of events; she should have told her sister in law (who was mentioned, but never seen in the white queen series) to wait for Richard to turn up before launching a war/rebellion.

This. The Lancaster/Tudors were rarely Elizabeth's enemies, it was Warrick and the Plantagenet brothers who were constantly meddling to usurp her so that they could control the throne. I would buy Elizabeth rallying an army to fight for her son's claim, but not Teddy's, who's existence was (and still could be if her kids are delegitimized again) a threat to her son's rule. Elizabeth should want Teddy dead as much as Maggie B to clear the way for her maybe-not-dead-son Richard. Trying to sneak in a fake Teddy (especially when Elizabeth knows that he's being held in the tower) does nothing for the York cause, unless she was trying to test the waters to see what kind of support they could garner before bringing her son into play.

I think in Elizabeth's mind, Lizzie will be spared when Richard takes the throne, and is young enough to be married off again in a politically beneficial way, and obviously Arthur is expendable in her eyes (because there's no way they'd let him live if Richard took back the crown.) This is why I don't get why Lizzie is still trying to protect her.

[nodorothyparker]

I would imagine even in the extreme situation that the show is painting it would be hard to truly believe your own mother sees the child you carried and birthed as utterly expendable or be just fine with watching her lose her head over it.  You could see Lizzie in this episode really grasping the truth of it between receiving Elizabeth's letter and visiting her only to have her stonewall her at every turn.  She was steeling herself in the throne room scene to quietly accept what she thought the likely verdict would be for Elizabeth's role in the failed uprising.  It's been quite a while since I read the book with Gregory's take on this particular relationship, but it seems like Elizabeth is doing a fine job of driving her daughter away all on her own for an heir who may or may not still be alive out there somewhere as far as she knows and that Lizzie is realizing that too.

Cecily has had Margaret Beauford whispering in her ear almost since they came to the Tudor court.  She also has a bit of a Marcia Marcia Marcia quality about her where her mother and Lizzie are concerned, so she was in a position to see the situation from a different angle.

[MarySNJ]

On 5/3/2017 at 0:21 PM, CindyBee said:

Its been awhile since I watched the episode that deals with the death of Edward V and his "brother" but I THINK Elizabeth Woodville believes the killer to be Margaret Beaufort/Lord Stanley thus her curse on the Tudors that Lizzie is now dealing with.  

<b>And add me to the list that doesn't quite understand what Elizabeth's end game is for all the plotting she's doing against Henry. </b>  Guess she just wants to "win" and doesn't care who gets hurt along the way, including baby Arthur.  

I just rewatched some of The White Queen series. I think Elizabeth's end game is simply - revenge. People who are bent on revenge are seldom rational. 

I like the alternate perspectives in the new series, taken from Elizabeth of York's perspective rather than her mother's. In TWQ Elizabeth Woodville was the "hero" of her own story protecting her husband and children against threats, whereas in TWP it seems Lizzie can see the manipulative side and the futility of her mother's desire for vengeance, not to mention the threat to her own son it poses. 

[rove4]

1 hour ago, MarySNJ said:

I like the alternate perspectives in the new series, taken from Elizabeth of York's perspective rather than her mother's. In TWQ Elizabeth Woodville was the "hero" of her own story protecting her husband and children against threats, whereas in TWP it seems Lizzie can see the manipulative side and the futility of her mother's desire for vengeance, not to mention the threat to her own son it poses. 

I tried to watch TWQ back when it originally aired but I didn't make it all the way through the series, mostly because even in that show I didn't buy into the notion that Elizabeth W. was the hero in even her own story. She always came off as too self-serving and manipulative for me to ever truly root for her.  Granted court life was full of political betrayals lurking around every corner but, I don't know, I just didn't like her much.  And while I love Essie Davis, I dislike Elizabeth W. even more in this show.  Frankly I just want both meddling mother-in-laws, Lady Margaret and Elizabeth W.,  to get the heck out and leave the youngsters to get on with their lives.

Princess Cecily does come across as shallow but she won me over in the episode where she said if she had choose a (family) side she'd at least choose the one she's actually afraid of. I chuckled at that.

I, too, was happy to see that Maggie got a decent husband out of this mess. at least for the purposes of this show. I'm not familiar enough with her real life to know if this is more PB fiction.

Lastly, I'm also happy to see that Henry and Lizzie are starting to come together and are separating from their controlling mothers. I really wanted to see the scene where Henry tells his mother to vacate the Queen's rooms though. 

[CindyBee]

10 minutes ago, rove4 said:

 

Princess Cecily does come across as shallow but she won me over in the episode where she said if she had choose a (family) side she'd at least choose the one she's actually afraid of. I chuckled at that.

 

Cecily really didn't have much of an option--either go into an abbey or work with her godmother and find a husband to protect her within the Tudor Court.  She was lucky that her husband was loyal to his nephew and was willing to overlook her being a York.    I know some have found the character to be annoying but I think that's not based on history--by all accounts Cecily was a good, loving sister.  We saw a bit of that at the end when she says her goodbyes to Lizzie before heading off to her own home, away from court.