S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[Potanical Pardon]

It's not okay to be a terrible person, owning it or not. That's why Jamie and Cat are still horrible people. No free passes even though we get moments to humanize them.

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

It's for this very same reason I also don't blame Walder Frey nor hate him and his family; fuck bread customs. Cat and the Tullys, and by extension the Starks treated that family like shit since forever. Yeah they're a joke and everyone in Westeros knows it, but her beeyotch attitude brought it on herself. They never directly did anything to her nor her family.

I'm biased, but I really cannot stand how high and mighty the Starks are portrayed. They're only allowed to be victims or heroes. And I do love Lyanna and Jon Snow as characters. And Arya on and off. 

Perhaps people wouldn't have such a poor opinion of Walder Frey if he showed-up on time to the Battle of the Trident.

In any case, bad manners doesn't justify mass murder, or any murder.

[Drogo]

Frey was a Tully bannerman but he didn't take his responsibilities to Lord Tully seriously; he showed up to battles only after the Tullys' side had secured victory and earned himself the nickname The Late Walder Frey.  It's his own doing that Hoster Tully didn't want to join their Houses by marriage. 

[Bcharmer]

On June 27, 2016 at 7:20 AM, insubordination said:

The only thing that really annoys me is that I'm not sure how Cersei's murder scene is gonna satisfy me (and it'd better be coming!). There are so many contenders. Arya?  Olenna? Jamie? Tyrion?  (to name just a few).

Maybe it will be like Murder on the Orient Express. They'll all take a stab at her.

[bluvelvet]

So two questions

1. How did they get the baby to open his eyes at the right moment, did they just continuously film him until he did. I only ask because newborns sleep A LOT..

2. So the dragons are flying over the open sea, where are they gonna land to rest and eat? I assume it's gonna take some time to go to Westeros

Edited June 29, 2016 by bluvelvet
overt to over

[Popples]

34 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

2. So the dragons are flying overt the open sea, where are they gonna land to rest and eat? I assume it's gonna take some time to go to Westeros

I'm not sure if they're too big to land and rest on the ships, Viserion and Rhaegal might be small enough due to being locked up, but they can eat fish. The first episode of season three showed Drogon catching a fish, roasting it, then eating it. Drogon might need shark or dolphin sized fish (if they exist in this universe).

[Drogo]

There are birds that can cross the Atlantic Ocean without stopping- why not dragons? :) 

[slf]

9 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

It's for this very same reason I also don't blame Walder Frey nor hate him and his family; fuck bread customs. Cat and the Tullys, and by extension the Starks treated that family like shit since forever. Yeah they're a joke and everyone in Westeros knows it, but her beeyotch attitude brought it on herself. They never directly did anything to her nor her family.

I'm biased, but I really cannot stand how high and mighty the Starks are portrayed. They're only allowed to be victims or heroes. And I do love Lyanna and Jon Snow as characters. And Arya on and off. 

"Bread customs"? Guest rights isn't a bread custom. It's an oath that even your worst enemy can lay down his sword and enter your home without fear of injury or death- an oath that has led to peace negotiations and the end of wars. What man in his right mind would enter negotiations with Walder Frey now? If he'll invite you into his home, as his guest, and then murder you and your kin? At a wedding, a religious ceremony, at that? 

And yes, the Frey's have been considered a weak family worthy of no respect since Walder became their patriarch. Why not? How does showing dislike for a family of cowards and pedophiles who kill and bed their own siblings make the Starks and Tullys bad people? Walder Frey is a sworn vassal. He is sworn to House Tully. He has failed in his obligations time and again, for decades, such as sending his forces to the Trident too late, as Catelyn pointed out. That's no small thing, failing to send your forces when you're supposed to; I can only imagine with losses the Riverlands suffered because of Walder's disloyalty and cowardice. This is show canon. Walder Frey has had over half a dozen wives, all younger than him and all dead. He can claim more than one hundred children and grandchildren, and only a small percentage of them are legitimate. He made his young wife stand beside him and groped her in front of company while she was clearly uncomfortable. He ordered a pregnant woman to be stabbed in the belly, killing her and her child. He worked with Tywin Lannister: a man who abused his own child, who unleashed Gregor Clegane onto men, women, and children, who was responsible for countless atrocities. 

Walder Frey was a disgusting sack of shit. He idiotically got into bed with the Boltons and Lannisters without a thought as to what the Red Wedding would do to his own family; it seemingly never occurred to him that he was being used. He was entirely without morals and he nearly destroyed his house and singlehandedly raised two generations (at least) of Freys who are known for incest, mass murder, and kinslaying. 

So I'd have to disagree with you: I very much blame Walder Frey and most of his wretched offspring. I can only hope some of the cunning and good Freys manage to clean house after his death and restore some dignity and honor to the Twins.

[Andromeda]

I keep thinking about this episode. So many things going on, such huge game-changers! Near-obliteration of houses Tyrell and Lannister, except for one matriarch each (and Jamie -- is he going to remain pledged to the Kingsguard?). Promotions for good guys such as Arya (to full-fledged Assassin) and Tyrion (to Hand). Others, meanwhile, were getting fired from important advisory roles (Melisandre, Pycelle -- in the biggest way). Obliteration of the Sparrow and his flock.

More Queens and and one new King (Jon). There are so many powerful women in the world now. I half wonder if the books won't end with only women being on the thrones -- Yara, Dany, Cersei, Ellaria, the Queen of Thorns. Will Sansa take over the Tully house and River Run? Of course, if only women end up ruling, that would mean Jon is not on a throne while Cersei remains on one, and we can't have that!

And the best thing of all  (for me) -- Dany on her way to Westeros!

Edited June 29, 2016 by Andromeda

[AlliMo]

I've seen a few people suggest that Jon could be legitimate if Lyanna and Rhaeger had married, but that wasn't possible as he was already married to Elia Martel. She and her children were murdered by the Mountain after Rhaeger's death at Robert Baratheon's hand.

The Dornish may be Dany's allies right now, but I'll lay bets that Tyrion is going to have an opinion about them murdering his niece.

Apropos of nothing, I can tell I've been watching too much of this show lately because as I was driving to work today, there was a shadow overhead and my immediate thought was, "Dragon!??!"

Edited June 29, 2016 by AlliMo

[Andromeda]

On 6/27/2016 at 9:49 PM, sportsgirl said:

I find this to be one of the real tragedies of the show. It, to me, is a true mark of Ned's honor and sacrifice that he let his own name be besmirched, not just publicly, but for own wife, whom he loved and respected, in order to protect his sister's son. He had to have known how Jon's presence in their household hurt -- and continued to hurt -- Catlyn, and it probably killed him to keep the secret from her, but he did. Because that was what he had promised to do. Ned's moves were never the smartest or the most strategic -- which drove me nuts about his character -- but they were always the most honorable. Other men would have come up with a different story or revealed the truth to their wives, but not Ned. From his perspective, making life easier for Cat or Jon would have made them less safe, and would have meant breaking his word to Lyanna.

This bugs me. I thought their marriage was more honest than that -- but I can see it happening. Ned should have fostered the boy out, but he probably worried for his safety should word get out. I'm surprised Robert didn't figure it out, knowing Ned as well as he did.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

This bugs me. I thought their marriage was more honest than that -- but I can see it happening. Ned should have fostered the boy out, but he probably worried for his safety should word get out. I'm surprised Robert didn't figure it out, knowing Ned as well as he did.

True, but Robert was more of a drinker than a thinker. I think the bigger reason that Robert never figured it out was that he knew Ned to be an honest man and therefore had no reason to believe that he would lie.

[Hecate7]

11 hours ago, revbfc said:

Littlefinger does mention being physically wounded.  He talks about a scar he has from his abdomen to his neck.  I forget from whom, but it was either one of the Tully or Stark boys.

It was from Brandon Stark, because Littlefinger challenged him to a duel over marrying Catelyn. He tells us (and Roz) about it Season One. Catelyn begged Brandon to spare Littlefinger, and he did. Not exactly childhood bullying--just the tough awful realities of feudal romance.

[bluvelvet]

6 hours ago, AlliMo said:

I've seen a few people suggest that Jon could be legitimate if Lyanna and Rhaeger had married, but that wasn't possible as he was already married to Elia Martel. She and her children were murdered by the Mountain after Rhaeger's death at Robert Baratheon's hand.

The Dornish may be Dany's allies right now, but I'll lay bets that Tyrion is going to have an opinion about them murdering his niece.

Apropos of nothing, I can tell I've been watching too much of this show lately because as I was driving to work today, there was a shadow overhead and my immediate thought was, "Dragon!??!"

Rhaegar could have had two wives. If Jon isn't legitimate then Rhaegar being his father isn't such a big deal because he wouldn't have a claim to the throne.  This secret is a powder keg is Jon has a legitimate claim to that hunk of metal. 

[Drogo]

If being illegitimate gives you no right to inherit the Iron Throne, Joffrey wouldn't have ordered the Gold Cloaks to eliminate all of Robert's bastard children.  Joffrey had other issues (ex: the rumors around his own illegitimacy and his horrible personal reputation) but clearly Gendry/Barra/others were "legitimate enough" for his enemies to rally behind if they desired to see Joffrey off the Throne and a better person on it. 

Such an argument in Jon's case would be especially interesting:  While Dany is a legitimate Targaryen born of wedlock, her father was "The Mad King" known for his cruelty, disregard for human life and general fuckedupness.  Jon on the other hand would be the (il?)legitimate son of beloved+handsome+noble+valiant Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, the finest man Ser Barristan ever knew, who the people loved and rallied behind... and half Stark to boot.  That's some powerful campaign trail material...

                                              

[Athena]

7 hours ago, Andromeda said:

This bugs me. I thought their marriage was more honest than that -- but I can see it happening. Ned should have fostered the boy out, but he probably worried for his safety should word get out. I'm surprised Robert didn't figure it out, knowing Ned as well as he did.

Ned had to protect the baby and he rightfully thought he could only do that with Jon nearby or under his roof. Secondly, Ned nearly lost his entire immediate family in the Rebellion: his father, his older brother, and his sister. He did make it clear to Jon that he had Stark blood and wanted to love him as much as he could in honour of his sister. At the time, he and Catelyn barely knew each other so I can see why he did not tell her at first. As time progressed, she became increasingly resentful of baby Jon which probably didn't help Ned trust her either. It is a gamble to let someone in on such a big secret like that especially if you love them because it endangers them to keep the secret as well.

Robert was not too clever, but Ned was still rightfully paranoid about it. Since they were BFFs and since Robert had so many of his bastards, he didn't think Ned would lie to him.

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Such an argument in Jon's case would be especially interesting:  While Dany is a legitimate Targaryen born of wedlock, her father was "The Mad King" known for his cruelty, disregard for human life and general fuckedupness.  Jon on the other hand would be the (il?)legitimate son of beloved+handsome+noble+valiant Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, the finest man Ser Barristan ever knew, who the people loved and rallied behind... and half Stark to boot.  That's some powerful campaign trail material...

Too bad Ser Barristan was already dead.  I would love to see who he would have pledged his sword to, between Dany and Jon

[AliShibaz]

On 2016-06-26 at 10:24 PM, Popples said:

<snip>Holy shit at Pycelle's death! Was the whore he stiffed one of the people who stabbed him along with the kids?<snip>

I'm afraid that is something that you will have to wonder about forever. In all likelihood, the truth will never be revealed.

But ... I think you might be able to take some satisfaction in the knowledge that he was such a nasty and miserable character that everyone really deserved to take a knife and plunge it into his heart. I know that I sure would have liked the opportunity to have done that. How about you?

Edited June 29, 2016 by AliShibaz

[announcergirl]

On 6/26/2016 at 9:27 PM, bluvelvet said:

Forgot to say...after 6 #$$%^#$ years, WINTER has finally gotten here...!

This post really gave me pause. I, literally, stopped what I was doing and went to see when this show started on HBO and tried to figure out what I was doing at the time. I can't place this time. Wow. It doesn't seem like 6 years. You blew my mind today.

[announcergirl]

On 6/26/2016 at 9:47 PM, Mathius said:

She was smiling at Jon's crowning so she doesn't care about her birthright or anything like that, she was worried because she knows LF wants ultimate power and that Jon is now in his way.  I actually can see her marrying him as a means of keeping Jon safe from his machinations.

She is a red head.

[announcergirl]

On 6/26/2016 at 10:45 PM, peggy06 said:

Did I mention I hate Cersei? I hate Cersei. She didn't even seem all that cut up about Tommen. So much for caring about her kids above all else. I can't think of a fate bad enough for her. BTW, that goes for Qyburn, too.

Let's be real. Tommen was weak. He pretty much was sending her to die by doing what his wife and the High Septor told him to do, do away with trial by battle. She did make sure he wasn't in the explosion by sending The Mountain to block him, she could not have guessed he'd jump to his death. I'm glad that sorry little weasel is gone.

[Lady S.]

10 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I keep thinking about this episode. So many things going on, such huge game-changers! Near-obliteration of houses Tyrell and Lannister, except for one matriarch each (and Jamie -- is he going to remain pledged to the Kingsguard?).

Tommen and Kevan already fired him before sending him to the Riverlands. (Kevan didn't have any lines in the scene, but I mention him only because I doubt Tommen made a single decision for himself in his reign.)

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

Such an argument in Jon's case would be especially interesting:  While Dany is a legitimate Targaryen born of wedlock, her father was "The Mad King" known for his cruelty, disregard for human life and general fuckedupness.  Jon on the other hand would be the (il?)legitimate son of beloved+handsome+noble+valiant Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, the finest man Ser Barristan ever knew, who the people loved and rallied behind... and half Stark to boot.  That's some powerful campaign trail material...                                       

Dany also keeps saying the dragons will be her only children, or words to that effect. It's pretty impractical to be choosy about legitimacy when there are only two Targs left in the world and one of them has no way to produce more heirs. We also just saw a scene of Jon being acclaimed king despite his bastardy, which just happened to come right after the reveal of his parentage. What does it really matter what the practices regarding the Iron Throne were before after everything that's happened? The hard part would be just convincing people Jon is Rhaegar's son, bastard or not. Which is why I think any Jon vs. Dany scenarios are purely hypothetical. The best way to prove his paternity would be if Dany accepts him as her nephew. She now has two people in her entourage with Stark sympathies, Tyrion, who befriended Jon and helped Bran and was on awkward, but relatively good terms with Sansa, and Theon, who had a complicated relationship with the Starks but would never go against them again. And Jorah might go to the Citadel and meet Sam, or return to Bear Island and meet up with his fierce little Kingmaker cousin.

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

True, but Robert was more of a drinker than a thinker. I think the bigger reason that Robert never figured it out was that he knew Ned to be an honest man and therefore had no reason to believe that he would lie.

Based on their discussion of the subject in 1.02, I think Robert liked thinking Ned actually had let loose and forgotten his honor and duties at least for one night. I imagine a lot of their time together as teenagers involved Robert trying to be a wingman and get Ned laid with Ned being too shy/uptight/honorable to go all the way.

[GrailKing]

On 6/28/2016 at 5:32 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't think that Littlefinger would let Robin marry anyone who he didn't vet himself. Robin totally worships Littlefinger so on the off chance that Robin found someone willing to marry him while LF is still at Winterfell, I'm pretty sure LF would ride straight back to the Vale and talk him out of it. If there's anything LF excels at, it's manipulating people to do what he wants. I think he probably has another year or two of Robin totally listening to him. Once he gets a little older and the hormones hit, LF might have more difficulty steering Robin toward someone he (LF) approves of but honestly, I don't see Littlefinger letting Robin live much longer. An accident is just waiting to befall that kid once LF has absolutely no more use for him.

It's coming down to Sansa versus LF and to win she'll need luck, allies (Hound, Brianne etc.)and her cousin should be a priority, turn him from LF to her.

[GrailKing]

21 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I'm speaking about when they were kids. Walder makes reference to the Tully's treating his family like shit. Pre-Red Wedding Cat is all aghast and insulted that she and Robb have to feign civility to the likes of Walder. That's a beeyotch thing.

As for the shade Jaime threw at Walder. That totally backfired. All it showed Jaime was a mirror of himself. That he isn't above, superior, a better anything than Walder. Walder owned Jaime, not the other way around. It's the first step towards Jaime finally thinking on his own and reclaiming his humanity.

Not from where I sat, Jamie won that. Walder's face died as Jamie dropped the mike on him and walked away.

Shit on by Tully, Starks, and Lannisters, not to mention all the people around that lecherous fool.

[MrWhyt]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

True, but Robert was more of a drinker than a thinker. I think the bigger reason that Robert never figured it out was that he knew Ned to be an honest man and therefore had no reason to believe that he would lie.

I think it's along the lines of "the best lie contains some truth", well an honorable man can been seen to be more honorable when he admits to doing something dishonorable.

[ElleMo]

12 hours ago, Andromeda said:

This bugs me. I thought their marriage was more honest than that -- but I can see it happening. Ned should have fostered the boy out, but he probably worried for his safety should word get out. I'm surprised Robert didn't figure it out, knowing Ned as well as he did.

I'm not.  Robert was not very bright.  But Ned was clearly worried that he might, which is why he had Jon go off with the Knight's Guard. 

[dampfire]

On 6/27/2016 at 4:19 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Ouch, Daario got dumped pretty hard.  I understand Dany's reasons, although after last week, I was wondering if maybe she just enjoyed Yara's flirting more then she let on.  On the bright side, maybe this will free Michiel Huisman up to go back to Orphan Back for it's final season.  Sure, Sarah might not have dragons, but she does have the awesome power known as Tatiana Maslany's acting ability!

After MH's nearly two season physical absence from Orphan Black, the running joke in Clone Club has pretty much been some variation on:

Where's Cal?
In Meereen.

After Daario asks in this ep, "Who comes after you?  Who follows Daenerys Stormborn, the Mother of Dragons?" and Dany answers, "A great number of women, I imagine," I just couldn't keep myself from immediately registering it as a meta-reference.  Not that I'm seriously suggesting that it was.  But it made me chuckle anyway.  You're right, Daario.  "Fuck Meereen!"  A great (and growing) number of women do indeed await you, Da...ahh...Cal.  So get your self-pitying, absentee ass back to the Many-Same-Faced Acting God, Tatiana Maslany, and thank your luckies (not to mention the Old Gods and the New) that she might still be willing to do a scene or two with you!  (Besides...Kira misses you.)

[revbfc]

1 hour ago, ElleMo said:

I'm not.  Robert was not very bright.  But Ned was clearly worried that he might, which is why he had Jon go off with the Knight's Guard. 

I thought it was Jon's choice to join the Night's Watch.

[slf]

9 hours ago, Drogo said:

If being illegitimate gives you no right to inherit the Iron Throne, Joffrey wouldn't have ordered the Gold Cloaks to eliminate all of Robert's bastard children.  Joffrey had other issues (ex: the rumors around his own illegitimacy and his horrible personal reputation) but clearly Gendry/Barra/others were "legitimate enough" for his enemies to rally behind if they desired to see Joffrey off the Throne and a better person on it. 

Such an argument in Jon's case would be especially interesting:  While Dany is a legitimate Targaryen born of wedlock, her father was "The Mad King" known for his cruelty, disregard for human life and general fuckedupness.  Jon on the other hand would be the (il?)legitimate son of beloved+handsome+noble+valiant Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, the finest man Ser Barristan ever knew, who the people loved and rallied behind... and half Stark to boot.  That's some powerful campaign trail material...

Joffrey killed them partially out of anger and spite and partially out of fear of them being taken seriously and legitimized (since the only other living Baratheons were considered enemies of the crown then one of Robert's bastards would have to be legitimized to keep his line going). Just as Ramsay was legitimized by Tommen. (Which is why bastards are feared in the first place.)

Jon is also descended from the Mad King as well. His father did not receive the support of the common people and in fact it's been said for more than twenty years that he abducted Lyanna Stark. As to that, Lyanna was 'chosen' over Elia Martell, the trueborn princess of Dorne, so I don't think Jon can count on support from the Dornish. He won't get support from the Reach, either, since they were Targ loyalists, which is a big deal; they claim the largest army and navy and control food supply to a significant percentage of the Seven Kingdoms (not to mention the Reach has the largest population of any Kingdom so if they're against you that's a decent chunk of Westerosis who don't want you to be King). He's not getting support from the Iron Islands or the Westerlands. And the Crownlands won't support him either. I'm guessing the Stormlands (which can't have many soldiers left at this point anyway) likely fold the second they see Dany's forces and dragons. Jon'll have the North, maybe the Riverlands, and the Vale. The North and the Riverlands have both been brutalized by warfare and likely don't have the food stores they're going to need for the coming winter. Can they afford to back Jon against Dany? Especially when there's really no way to confirm that Jon is a Targaryen- and isn't a bastard? Even in their society a trueborn daughter trumps an illegitimate son. (Had Myrcella lived, and so had all of Robert's bastards, she would have inherited the crown after Tommen's death.)

Last but not least, Jon is claiming King of the North. As in, the North is its own independent kingdom. To take the Iron Throne he'd have to bring the North back into the Seven Kingdoms, which the Northmen do not want. They were quick to declare succession and to make clear they resented having to bend the knee to Southroners with different Gods when they declared Robb King back in season one. So Jon's going to force the North back in just so he can claim the Iron Throne, but to do that he'd have to publicly acknowledge he's only a Stark on the female line (which is a weak claim). Bearing in mind that the Northmen fought to free Lyanna Stark from Rhaegar Targaryen and fought to avenge Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths at the hands of the Mad King.

Dany is indisputably a Targaryen, and a legitimate one at that. She has a history of "freeing" slaves and other oppressed peoples. She's been able to unite warring cultures behind her. She's fulfilled at least one prophecy and is likely fulfilling another. She has three dragons, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Dornish, the Ironborn, and the Reach with her. At some point the WW are going to cross the wall and when that happens I doubt anyone's going to care about Rhaegar Targaryen's likely illegitimate son. Then it'll be about survival and three fire-breathing dragons will likely prove useful against Ice Zombies. People will be clamoring for Dany to be their Queen.

Edited June 29, 2016 by slf

[HumblePi]

21 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

So two questions

1. How did they get the baby to open his eyes at the right moment, did they just continuously film him until he did. I only ask because newborns sleep A LOT..

2. So the dragons are flying over the open sea, where are they gonna land to rest and eat? I assume it's gonna take some time to go to Westeros

I guess they had the camera on that baby's face as he was waking up from a nap. He was a little cutie too, not like the rubber prop babies I've seen in other scenes. But this was just a closeup shot of a real baby, he wasn't in an entire scene.

I don't think dragons need a lot of rest or food. Their wings are huge so it doesn't seem like they're expending too much energy.

[knaankos]

6 hours ago, announcergirl said:

Let's be real. Tommen was weak. He pretty much was sending her to die by doing what his wife and the High Septor told him to do, do away with trial by battle. She did make sure he wasn't in the explosion by sending The Mountain to block him, she could not have guessed he'd jump to his death. I'm glad that sorry little weasel is gone.

Definitely. Say what you will about Joffrey but there's no way the High Sparrow would have been able run King's Landing if Joffrey had been on the throne. He would have demanded that they all be beheaded before they even thought about trying a maneuver. 

[slf]

14 minutes ago, knaankos said:

Definitely. Say what you will about Joffrey but there's no way the High Sparrow would have been able run King's Landing if Joffrey had been on the throne. He would have demanded that they all be beheaded before they even thought about trying a maneuver. 

Joffrey probably would have banished his mother to Casterly Rock beforehand which would have taken care of quite a few problems. But the HS gained such popularity for a reason. The common people felt trampled, exploited, abused; Joffrey would not have been a balm for that. Fixing that situation would have fallen to the Tyrells, and that would have depended on Joffrey not eventually turning on them too. Not sure how that would have worked out.

[announcergirl]

37 minutes ago, slf said:

Joffrey probably would have banished his mother to Casterly Rock beforehand which would have taken care of quite a few problems. But the HS gained such popularity for a reason. The common people felt trampled, exploited, abused; Joffrey would not have been a balm for that. Fixing that situation would have fallen to the Tyrells, and that would have depended on Joffrey not eventually turning on them too. Not sure how that would have worked out.

Popularity among the common people, yes. But power, no. The whole storyline of the HS taking power over the monarchy was the hardest one for me to accept. No way Joffrey would have had his power usurped by some dirty, common  zealot. I mean, you're the king, with an army. Common people be damned! That Tommen was weak. Yes, a child still, but so were the others. Look at Lady Mormont. Stark comparison.

1 hour ago, HumblePi said:

I guess they had the camera on that baby's face as he was waking up from a nap. He was a little cutie too, not like the rubber prop babies I've seen in other scenes. But this was just a closeup shot of a real baby, he wasn't in an entire scene.

I don't think dragons need a lot of rest or food. Their wings are huge so it doesn't seem like they're expending too much energy.

By the way, that darned baby looks old. Is that Walder Frey?!

[MissLulu]

That Tommen was weak.

 

I think that is a bit unfair, he should not have been King, it was not even his true birth right. He was a sensitive boy, thrown into a position where he was easily manipulated. He always wanted to do the right thing and his only real fault was having an actual heart. Seeing thousands of people die, including some he cared for deeply, he probably blamed himself and it was just too much.

Edited June 30, 2016 by MissLulu

[Drogo]

Interesting to look back at Tywin's 'Being A King 4 Dummies' speech to Tommen at Joffrey's funeral. 

Tywin asks what the most important quality of a King is, and Tommen's immediate reaction is Holiness, to which Tywin replies: "Baelor the Blessed was holy and pious. He built this sept. He also named a six year old boy High Septon because he thought the boy could work miracles. He ended up fasting himself into an early grave because food was of this world and this world was sinful."

Maybe Tommen should have listened to G-Pa.

[GrailKing]

I just rewatched the KITN section and Sansa has a smile until Lord Glover spoke then it looks like she has pursed lips, that could just be the way Glover treated them and Sansa in particular, she smiles again as Jon looks to her and she has that smile on until her eyes meets LF's smirking face then her expression is more like oh shit. I'm sure she knows she made an enemy.

I still think it's Sansa Vs LF, and she may want to keep Jon out of it just to keep LF from Jon.

I don't think it's a surprise that LF want to separate the siblings, he do it even if Sansa said yes; Jon,Rickon and Bran would all be obstacles he have to remove, just like Ramsey would have.

Edited June 30, 2016 by GrailKing

[revbfc]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I just rewatched the KITN section and Sansa has a smile until Lord Glover spoke then it looks like she has pursed lips, that could just be the way Glover treated them and Sansa in particular, she smiles again as Jon looks to her and she has that smile on until her eyes meets LF's smirking face then her expression is more like oh shit. I'm sure she knows she made an enemy.

I still think it's Sansa Vs LF, and she may want to keep Jon out of it just to keep LF from Jon.

I don't think it's a surprise that LF want to separate the siblings, he do it even if Sansa said yes; Jon,Rickon and Bran would all be obstacles he have to remove, just like Ramsey would have.

Everybody is in danger from LF's plots, but not for long.  LF's game is too spread out, and he has less control of the pieces than he did in King's Landing.  He'll definitely get a few more good jabs in, but he's running out of cover and he has no friends.  

[DollEyes]

Quote

Well, after getting her ass kicked by the High Sparrow all season, she sure won when it counted. Savor your victory, Cersei, as you scatter the ashes of your last child. And you've got the Queen Of Dragons and Thorns coming for your ass.

  As if Dany's fleet alone wouldn't be tough enough for Cersei to deal with, put the Starks, their allies, Lady Olenna and Ellaria in the mix and it looks like Cersei will have the shortest reign in Seven Kingdoms' history. 

  Speaking of Cersei, if the look on Jaime's face at her coronation is any indication, I'd say that their days together are numbered. The love that Jaime told Edmure that he felt for Cersei in "No One" sure seemed to be fading at the end of this episode, if not gone altogether. In that scene, Jaime was probably wondering about two things: if Tommen's dead, did Cersei kill him and if she's willing to let Tommen die to get what she wanted, would she at least consider doing the same thing to him, if necessary? 

Edited June 30, 2016 by DollEyes

[Luckylyn]

4 hours ago, revbfc said:

Everybody is in danger from LF's plots, but not for long.  LF's game is too spread out, and he has less control of the pieces than he did in King's Landing.  He'll definitely get a few more good jabs in, but he's running out of cover and he has no friends.  

Littlefinger already miscalculated majorly by leaving Sansa with the Boltons instead of taking her to her brother or someplace safe.   I think his plan was to eventually rescue Sansa from the Boltons and play hero to get the Northern houses on his side and marry Sansa to rule. I suspect he was counting on Ramsey being abusive to Sana and using that to get the Northern houses to team up with him in charge to destroy the Boltons.  I think I remember a scene where Littlefinger was trying to spread the false rumor that Sansa had been kidnapped from him but that wasn't working since people didn't trust his version of events.  He underestimated how much Sansa would resent him for handing her over to Ramsey and how much resentment of Robb Stark's choices had weakened Northern support for the Starks.  They didn't get angry over his kidnapping story in the way he was hoping for.  Plus, Sansa with the help of Theon and Brienne got away from the Boltons and got to Jon which clearly was something Littlefinger did not see coming.  Jon was never on his radar and Littlefinger has an obstacle he had never before given any consideration.  Littlefinger believed that Jon being a bastard would limit how far Jon could raise and now Jon has been declared King of the North enthusiastically by people Littlefinger was counting on not accepting Jon.  Now the Stark family is in a strong position and Littlefinger's schemes have worked against him and aided Jon unexpectedly.   From Littlefinger's perspective, Jon has gained what Littlefinger has been working towards, and I think Littlefinger can do some serious damage to Jon if he isn't dealt with.  LIttlefinger won't fight Jon to his face but instead subtlety work behind Jon's back to bring destruction.   I do think his next scheme will be to try to cause discord between Sansa and Jon and through Sansa get support away from Jon and towards Littlefinger.  Littlefinger is potentially very dangerous and Sansa understands that.   Meanwhile Bran is a spoiler Littlefinger still doesn't have a clue about.   Plus, Sansa knows about his involvement in Joffery's murder and could find a way to use that information to direct Cersei;s rage at Littlefinger.  It would be in his best interest to work with Jon and Sansa and maintain his hold on the Vale but his desire for power is strong enough that I think he'll take the risk of trying for another power play.  Although not all of his schemes have worked, he has managed to do a lot of damage to others without harming himself and instead gaining more power.

Now I'm concerned about Brienne because she offers Sansa protection and Littlefinger most likely would prefer to be the person Sansa goes to for safety.  I don't like that we saw where everyone else was except Brienne and Pod in this episode.  I wonder if Littlefinger has done something to delay or even prevent Brienne from getting back to Winterfell.  Is she in the Vale as a prisoner or was her exclusion in the finale just an oversight?  If Littlefinger goes after Brienne that could have consequences that Littlefinger doesn't see coming because Brienne can defend herself and if harm comes to her Jaime will go after Littlefinger.

[Lady S.]

15 hours ago, MissLulu said:

That Tommen was weak.

 

I think that is a bit unfair, he should not have been King, it was not even his true birth right. He was a sensitive boy, thrown into a position where he was easily manipulated. He always wanted to do the right thing and his only real fault was having an actual heart. Seeing thousands of people die, including some he cared for deeply, he probably blamed himself and it was just too much.

Yeah, I don't think he can really be compared with Lady She-Bear. It's not clear at all when Jorah lost the lordship of Bear Island and fled into exile, but I had the impression it was a while before the pilot, meaning Lyanna could have prepared by her parents for most if, not all, of her life as the heiress presumptive. Tommen's pre-throne childhood probably revolved around cuddling with his cat and being bullied by Joffrey. No one instructed him about ruling until Joffrey was dead, and Tywin didn't have very long to impart his wisdom before being murdered himself. 

[GrailKing]

She looks like a Romulan Queen, ready to take a Bird of Prey to hunt Captain Kirk esp. with the crown removed.

[annsterg]

20 hours ago, slf said:

Joffrey killed them partially out of anger and spite and partially out of fear of them being taken seriously and legitimized (since the only other living Baratheons were considered enemies of the crown then one of Robert's bastards would have to be legitimized to keep his line going). Just as Ramsay was legitimized by Tommen. (Which is why bastards are feared in the first place.)

Jon is also descended from the Mad King as well. His father did not receive the support of the common people and in fact it's been said for more than twenty years that he abducted Lyanna Stark. As to that, Lyanna was 'chosen' over Elia Martell, the trueborn princess of Dorne, so I don't think Jon can count on support from the Dornish. He won't get support from the Reach, either, since they were Targ loyalists, which is a big deal; they claim the largest army and navy and control food supply to a significant percentage of the Seven Kingdoms (not to mention the Reach has the largest population of any Kingdom so if they're against you that's a decent chunk of Westerosis who don't want you to be King). He's not getting support from the Iron Islands or the Westerlands. And the Crownlands won't support him either. I'm guessing the Stormlands (which can't have many soldiers left at this point anyway) likely fold the second they see Dany's forces and dragons. Jon'll have the North, maybe the Riverlands, and the Vale. The North and the Riverlands have both been brutalized by warfare and likely don't have the food stores they're going to need for the coming winter. Can they afford to back Jon against Dany? Especially when there's really no way to confirm that Jon is a Targaryen- and isn't a bastard? Even in their society a trueborn daughter trumps an illegitimate son. (Had Myrcella lived, and so had all of Robert's bastards, she would have inherited the crown after Tommen's death.)

Last but not least, Jon is claiming King of the North. As in, the North is its own independent kingdom. To take the Iron Throne he'd have to bring the North back into the Seven Kingdoms, which the Northmen do not want. They were quick to declare succession and to make clear they resented having to bend the knee to Southroners with different Gods when they declared Robb King back in season one. So Jon's going to force the North back in just so he can claim the Iron Throne, but to do that he'd have to publicly acknowledge he's only a Stark on the female line (which is a weak claim). Bearing in mind that the Northmen fought to free Lyanna Stark from Rhaegar Targaryen and fought to avenge Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths at the hands of the Mad King.

Dany is indisputably a Targaryen, and a legitimate one at that. She has a history of "freeing" slaves and other oppressed peoples. She's been able to unite warring cultures behind her. She's fulfilled at least one prophecy and is likely fulfilling another. She has three dragons, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Dornish, the Ironborn, and the Reach with her. At some point the WW are going to cross the wall and when that happens I doubt anyone's going to care about Rhaegar Targaryen's likely illegitimate son. Then it'll be about survival and three fire-breathing dragons will likely prove useful against Ice Zombies. People will be clamoring for Dany to be their Queen.

But...I think the crux of the matter is: Jon does not want the Iron Throne. He has never been shown as pursuing power; it's been somewhat thrust upon him because of events. The ONLY reason he would want it would be the power (money, men, materiel) that came with it to fight the White Walkers

[AliShibaz]

On 2016-06-27 at 2:53 AM, riley702 said:

I have to admit I was cackling right along with you. "Confess!" Dumps wine on her face.

 

It's pretty hard to find a character who is more despicable than Cersei. But the HS and all his little sparrows (including this lady - sorry I can't remember her name) are easily more hateful than Cersei.

I find the HS to be very intriguing. On the surface, he seems like such a fine fellow. The British have an expression for this kind of person. I think it's something like, "hale fellow well met" or something like that. Everytime I see him, that is the expression that pops into my mind. If you didn't know he was the HS and you didn't know how he treated people, I think most people would think he was a real splendid fellow. That is just so strange. Because once you get to know what he does, I think most people agree that he is an incredible monster

I find this intriguing because some of the biggest villains in history seem to be very fine people on the outside. But on the inside, they are complete monsters. It takes an amazing level of skill to be a monster but make people think you are a fine person.

[announcergirl]

23 hours ago, ElleMo said:

I'm not.  Robert was not very bright.  But Ned was clearly worried that he might, which is why he had Jon go off with the Knight's Guard. 

I know the wall is supposed to be an honorable position, but it seemed more like punishment. How can you love someone and send them to the wall- for life?

[Harald Hardrada]

Jon is a Targaryen now? looks like he just entered my least favourite list.

[MrWhyt]

9 minutes ago, announcergirl said:

I know the wall is supposed to be an honorable position, but it seemed more like punishment. How can you love someone and send them to the wall- for life?

a member of the Night's Watch renounces all titles, lands, and offspring as part of his oath. Once he has taken this oath Jon wouldn't be able to make a claim for the throne, thus making him safer from retribution is his Targaryean heritage is discovered..

[ElleMo]

51 minutes ago, announcergirl said:

I know the wall is supposed to be an honorable position, but it seemed more like punishment. How can you love someone and send them to the wall- for life?

Sam and his father definitely viewed it as a punishment.  But I think Ned was more concerned with keeping Jon safe, which he was when he renounced all this claims for a titles.   Probably also why Ned promised to tell Jon the truth later.  He wanted to wait  until he was a member of the Night's Watch.

 

Then Jon died, came back and decided he was no longer part of the Night's Watch.  So now he is in danger again, once his heritage is known.  But I am sure that he, Dany, the dragons, the direwolves and many others will work together to conquer the night walkers.  

[Drogo]

52 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

a member of the Night's Watch renounces all titles, lands, and offspring as part of his oath. Once he has taken this oath Jon wouldn't be able to make a claim for the throne, thus making him safer from retribution is his Targaryean heritage is discovered..

That's also why Ned says he'll tell Jon about his mother the next time they see each other (when Jon would be a sworn brother of the NW and had renounced any birthright.)  

[announcergirl]

4 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

a member of the Night's Watch renounces all titles, lands, and offspring as part of his oath. Once he has taken this oath Jon wouldn't be able to make a claim for the throne, thus making him safer from retribution is his Targaryean heritage is discovered..

Exactly. No kids, no women/sex, in the cold and snow. What a bleak existence. 

[PatsyandEddie]

A position on The Wall used to be an honourable one but as time wore on and memories of battles fought against magical beings went dim,it became a penal colony for southern criminals. The Starks were known to send "extraneous" sons to man The Wall as an honourable duty. 

IMO, Ned would have kept Jon at Winterfell if he hadn't been called to King's Landing. He preferred to keep Jon under his personal protection. Plus Cat was adamant.