S03.E08: Perpetual Night / S03.E09: The Blessed Dark

[teddysmom]

The thing that gets me is that if Showtime and John Logan both knew it was the series finale, why didn't they tell the fans? They could have done a press tour with the cast, talked about the show, made it into something special. Instead we're all feeling miserable and confused. Unless they didn't want any spoilers to leak about Vanessa. We'll always have Little Scorpion for the Ethan/Vanessa shipper in me.

And I'll treasure the pilot episode, when Ethan, after fighting a group of vampires with Sir Malcolm, Vanessa, and Sembene, turns to them and asks "Who the fuck are you people?" That's when they had me. I was all in.

[BuddhaBelly]

Now that I know they planned for this to be the final season, I'm even more dissatisfied.

[LadyChaos]

Is that what that article said because I took it to mean it was just the end of a book, and we all know most books like this is a series.

 

i mean it's the 'Vanessa is dead, and Penny Dreadful is done....seemingly' that makes me question if this really is the series finale or not.

Edited June 20, 2016 by LadyChaos

[Cthulhudrew]

9 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

And after all of our closely reasoned, impassioned dissection of the feminist and literary subtext of it all. I will have to come back tomorrow to think about what Ethan killing Vanessa means in all of this, though it does parallel Mina Harker's death in Dracula. Just, no, this wasn't the way for the most interesting heroine to go. 

Mina didn't die in Dracula, at least not in the novel. (Maybe she died in one of the movies? I have pretty much forgotten the Coppola film, save that I disliked it intensely and never watched it again.)

[Automne]

Ugh, this was awful. It's not even Vanessa dying that made it horrible, it's all the loose ends left dangling and to what exactly did the previous two seasons build. It just felt very unfinished, like they filmed the rough draft.

If Vanessa was going to die, why couldn't it be after an epic takedown of Dracula and her realizing that her death frees herself and saves the world? I was expecting Vanessa to take Dracula down from the inside, so to speak, after she submitted herself to him. But instead, Vanessa gets an anticlimactic death in her only second appearance in two hours of television and everybody allows Dracula to just waltz out of there?

I read the Variety article and it makes even less sense. If the show being three seasons was intentional from the outset, then why did they not properly plan it out that way? Give each season 13 episodes: first season is the setup of the characters (all the characters planned for the series), atmosphere, and the overall plotlines, season two starts climbing to the peak with the climax of Vanessa submitting to Dracula, and season three shows Vanessa as the Mother of All Evil and the other characters fighting for her redemption and to defeat Dracula and Lucifer. The Nightcomers could have been taken out of the series entirely; as much as Helen McCrory is a treat, the witches were total non-starters, especially since Hecate died without any sort of actual character development. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Automne

[dargosmydaddy]

14 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I'm at odd right now over what pissed me off more, This ending or the ending to Allegiant

I haven't watched yet... is it as bad as the Sleepy Hollow finale? Because that's currently my gold standard of what-the-fuckery in terms of finales.

[sjohnson]

You can't have Penny Dreadful be all about the suffering of the Ives, then end with anything but the ultimate vindication of the Ives by glorious martyrdom. The only other ending feasible was the Ives queening it over the dead husk of the world. Since the world didn't end in 1892, there are plausibility problems with that scenario, even for this show, which has to look up "plausibility" in the dictionary. 

If on reflection the series finale still doesn't have the proper impact, maybe the problem was that the all powerful, but all suffering, Ives, despite the admitted entertainment value of Eva Green shenanigans, wasn't really all that satisfying an...well I wanted to write "idea," but that implies thinking. 

[LadyChaos]

23 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I haven't watched yet... is it as bad as the Sleepy Hollow finale? Because that's currently my gold standard of what-the-fuckery in terms of finales.

I've never seen sleepy hallow, but Allegiant is my gold star in stupid endings

[ChipBach]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

The thing that gets me is that if Showtime and John Logan both knew it was the series finale, why didn't they tell the fans? They could have done a press tour with the cast, talked about the show, made it into something special. Instead we're all feeling miserable and confused. Unless they didn't want any spoilers to leak about Vanessa. We'll always have Little Scorpion for the Ethan/Vanessa shipper in me.

And I'll treasure the pilot episode, when Ethan, after fighting a group of vampires with Sir Malcolm, Vanessa, and Sembene, turns to them and asks "Who the fuck are you people?" That's when they had me. I was all in.

I think that was the exact impact they wanted for the fans, a big emotional punch.  I was more disappointed with Drac.  He seemed pretty lightweight compared to some of the evil doers she had faced in the past.  After her death, I would have loved to see the scene replayed with her and Ethan and their children then a fade out.  Heaven accomplished... 

[Cthulhudrew]

Among other things, I really feel as if the Brona/Dorian/Prostitute storyline didn't go much of anywhere. While the characters involved got some degree of resolution, it didn't feel as if those resolutions had much to do with that particular plot.

[WaltersHair]

I decided to sleep on it to see if that feeling of being skewered in my fan eye with a red hot poker would go away. Nope.

Other posters here have already eloquently pointed out my problems with the ending. Not to mention that I chose to watch PD over GOT to boot.

It just felt rushed, I don't care who says it was always meant to be three seasons. Spending more than half of season 3 meandering in the old West and then rushing back to London to kill bad guys just wasn't satisfying. Hell, Ethan could have shot Vanessa 2 seasons ago if that was the intention all along. Something should have happened that couldn't have happened earlier in the series if that makes sense.

I did like Dorian's ending. It was fitting, but letting Brona live over Vanessa? No.

Caliban's ending was fitting also, I thought. Jekyll was a sadly wasted opportunity. Catriona looked like someone who wandered in from a Tomb Raider movie set to see if she could help out.

However, I will say that I prefer this ending over a ham-fisted attempt to bring Vanessa back through some other means such as Frankenstein's Black&Decker tools hooked up to a DieHard Battery.

This is the first series in years that I've loved and hated in equal degrees. All the actors deserved kudos, the makeup and sets were stunning, and most of the writing was pretty good too.

And I'll stop now because my euphemisms are showing.

Edited June 20, 2016 by WaltersHair

[teddysmom]

I agree it seemed a little rushed, Malcolm & Co run into Victor and say "come on we have to find Ethan, and then boom they're all together in Chinatown. How did they find him? 

And they're all fighting while Ethan goes to look for Vanessa? I'd rather him be fighting and see Vanessa up on the balcony , she turns and walks down that hall and he follow her.  And for it to be more of a struggle. Him begging her not to ask him to do that, that he travelled halfway around the world to get back to her, and that he'd die before he let anything hurt her.  What was the whole point of her being seduced by Dracula? She knew it was wrong, she was strong enough to fight all those years.  She knew it would bring on the end of days.  I would have had her kill Dracula herself, and then the darkness lifts. The final scene is Ethan and Vanessa together as she dreamed. With the rest of the gang coming to dinner at their house. Corny but much happier.  

And most definitely we needed Mr Lyle at the funeral. He will be crushed. 

I will say I got teary eyed at the end. This season hasn't been my favorite, because no Ethan/Vanessa, but I still love the show. 

[Glade]

I just read the interview, which was quite as unsatisfying for me as the episode itself.  There could have been a season 4, but Logan made the decision himself to end it here.  That is...really sad.  This story could have played itself out over two seasons--imagine if Vanessa spent a whole season as a vampire or something?  That would at least have given enough time to all the characters to end this well. 

Personally, I loved those scenes between Victor and Vanessa in S2, where they developed their friendship.  And I hate that the two of them were in London the entire season but had NO scenes together at all.  Someone in the circle should have found out that Victor has revived three people from the dead.  And I sure as hell was waiting for Ethan to find out Brona was alive!  Which wasn't even discussed in the interview.  The actor who played Dr. Jeckyl said the sexual chemistry between him and Victor upon his arrival was unintentional and there was never any plan for it to be consummated, which is really sad! 

Victor made the same decision as he did back in S1 when he chose not to kill John Claire despite having the perfect oppurtunity.  Lily said she was made because of blackmail, but that wasn't really true--Victor had resisted the blackmail for a long time and done nothing, until he decided he wanted to make amends to Caliban and give him a possible companion.

Maybe if Logan had at least begged for 10 episodes there could have been more Evil Vanessa and more scenes with her and Ethan. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Glade

[teddysmom]

Quote

Maybe if Logan had at least begged for 10 episodes there could have been more Evil Vanessa and more scenes with her and Ethan.

THIS!!!  Evil Vanessa, with Ethan & Co trying to save her/stop her, maybe she even takes Malcolm or Victor prisoner and tortures them, and the finale is Ethan shooting her and she returns to her old self and dies.   Kind of like Buffy & Angel.  And guess who came back from the dead in that one??!!  Yeah, a vampire!!  

I'm going back to watch first two seasons and pretend this didn't happen. My friend hasn't watched yet I told her to stay off the internet til she did. 

[Cthulhudrew]

At least we now know why Mr. Lyle was so teary-eyed at his departure; he knew he wouldn't be included in the finale. :'(

Edited June 20, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[AuntieMame]

51 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

THIS!!!  Evil Vanessa, with Ethan & Co trying to save her/stop her, maybe she even takes Malcolm or Victor prisoner and tortures them, and the finale is Ethan shooting her and she returns to her old self and dies.   Kind of like Buffy & Angel.  And guess who came back from the dead in that one??!!  Yeah, a vampire!!  

I'm going back to watch first two seasons and pretend this didn't happen. My friend hasn't watched yet I told her to stay off the internet til she did. 

I too thought of Buffy and Angel while watching this and trying to sort through all of the mixed messages we've gotten in terms of feminism and heroines. It was the ultimate sacrifice for both Buffy and Ethan, but this was supposed to be a show of powerful Vanessa fighting to become a force for good against congenital odds that hampered her. Yes, she had companions in this fight and help but these final episodes turned Ethan into the main protagonist and hero, rather than showing us Vanessa's story from Vanessa's point of view. I think this shift in narrative focus is what jarred all of us so badly rather than just trying to figure out "what it all meant". We had a huge, unexpected shift from heroine to hero with no explanation and tons of plot points left dangling. 

[LadyChaos]

Guess I will be looking to fanfiction to fill the gaping holes this series has left....

[Broderbits]

I will certainly think twice before watching anything else from this showrunner. He wasted my time and squandered the talents of these actors with a disappointing final season. So much talking without resolution, so much useless dialog leading nowhere and explaining nothing!

[snowblossom2]

I'm still mad at the ending. What is the point of last season? This whole series, if Ethan killing Vanessa in a two minute scene is the answer?

[lmsweb]

I've had a chance to sleep on this (what little sleep I got, between watching this and GoT last night) and I'm not really angry at the ending.
I've seen lots of posts here and other places that complained that it was the Vanessa Ives show, and they were tired of watching her constantly go from being in danger, to rescued, to danger again. But wasn't that the whole point of her dying? There was never going to be a happy ending for her. There was never going to be a happily-ever-after scene of her and Ethan and their adorable kids. This is, for better or worse, the inevitability of how her life HAD to end.

And I don't mind that we'll wonder what happened to Ferdinand Lyle. Or that we won't know what the future held for Ethan or Malcolm or Victor. Or John Clare. Isn't that actually the highest praise that we can give a writer, whether it be a show, a book, a movie? That we become so engrossed and invested in the characters and their lives that we are left wondering, maybe creating in our  own minds what paths their futures may have taken?

Don't get me wrong, I could have watched an entire season more of Eva Green chewing up everything in sight, or John Clare reciting heartbreaking poetry. But I don't mind how they chose to end it. Except I never got to see a hot sex scene between Ethan and Vanessa. I'll have to just imagine that one in my head :)

[MissL]

You know. I cry at everything and I didn't cry when Vanessa died. Mostly because I was so pissed it was done so poorly. I don't mind that she died.. It makes sense from a storyline perspective...I mind that getting to her dying made no sense. 

Everyone has touched on the points but yes...I was waiting for that moment when Ethan saw "Lily" and Victor having to explain himself. I wanted to see the team come together and fight the baddie but in a way that made sense...and I call bullshit on them knowing this was the end because why send Mr. Lyle away. I'm disappointed that so much potential and a great story was squandered.

[raven]

Quote

That we become so engrossed and invested in the characters and their lives that we are left wondering, maybe creating in our  own minds what paths their futures may have taken?

Interesting points.  I would say the show was successful for me in this respect. 

I wouldn't want to watch a show with Cat as a replacement for Vanessa - we've seen that type of character already.  The key to PD was not just Vanessa herself but how she affected those around her; fine, she was inhabited by evil but she was also full of compassion, friendship, love, blah blah :)  The show was always more concerned with the dangers within than without (hence the bad guys always going out like chumps) and the fact that our heroes were variations of human monsters struggling for balance.  Now maybe that in itself isn't unique on TV but I would argue that the presentation was; maybe the performances set it apart or the chemistry between everyone, but the show continued to make me sympathize with John Clare and even Victor, even Lily when talking about her daughter or her awful life pre-resurrection and that was something different for me.   Everyone's "dark" qualities were blended with their humanity in a way that was compelling to watch.  Malcolm realizing his mistakes way, way to late to make amends but not curling up in a ball, resolving to keep on.  Even Ethan, though his story was bungled this season.

We should have had longer with Ethan/Vanessa, Malcolm/Vanessa....Mr. Lyle should have been there *sniff* and everyone should not have been separate for so long in S3.  The show for me has been excellent more often than not, heck more often than just OK, so a fully planned season finale should have been more thorough.  You don't have to wrap everything in a bow but the real moments needed weren't all there.

So some of the after-interviews feel kind of retconney but I don't think I'd want the Monster Squad as a reboot. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by raven

[RedHackle]

Wow. Dick move, PD. If there was advance word that the show was going to start an hour earlier, I missed it. And then the double whammy of that being The End...well. I'd much rather Vanessa had gone down swinging, instead of that weak submission to Dracula from the week before. But having said all that, there were some nice moments in the finale. But damn, overall, I'm disappointed.

[kieyra]

It's difficult not to wonder if there was some behind-the-scenes fuckery that caused this all to implode.

[Fuzzy Logic]

While there were some beautiful moments in this finale, overall it was fractured and underwhelming.  I get the strong impression that Logan had that end scene (Vanessa's sacrifice at Ethan's hand) in mind, but no real narrative map to lead the characters there.  Now looking back, the whole season feels like an exhausting run on a hamster wheel, a repetitive and unsatisfying journey.  It might've given more retroactive form to the season had Ethan realized that he had been subconsciously running away from his destined duty to kill Vanessa...but no, Ethan's sum-up of his never-ending trek out West was something like, "I stood on the brink of hell but God is still looking out for me."  Really, show?  Seven episodes for that?  And when exactly did Ethan have this epiphany?  Somewhere in the muddle of his storyline this season?  I couldn't say.  We're left with a bunch of puzzle pieces that don't form a whole.  That and the crass 'season to series finale' viewer manipulation that earned its emotion on the cheap.  What a waste.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fuzzy Logic

[LadyChaos]

I think I could have accepted it if they had gotten one good love scene in for ethaneasa but no they could not give us that so now I'm mad

[LittleIggy]

When Malcolm told Victor, "Vanessa is in danger," I wanted Victor to say, "No, kidding! When is she not." Vanessa's death didn't move me at all. Thousands of people died because she couldn't shoot boring Dracula when she had a chance, but let him charm her into getting bitten. I watched this season out of habit, not because I particularly enjoyed it. I'd like a spinoff with Catroina, Mr. Lyles, Dr. Seward and Takane (sp?).

[Scaeva]

This season had all the hallmarks of a decision to end it being made midway through shooting it. Too many loose ends left untied, and some of those that were tied up felt rushed, like Lily's radfem terror cell disintegrating as soon as Dorian declaried it dreadfully dull, or Jekyll becoming Hyde through inheritance of a noble title.

What was the point of Dorian if the series was always intended to wrap up after three seasons? He had some great moments this season, but remained mostly disconnected from the rest of the cast and the main goings on. What was the point of Jekyll? Or Catriona, who was barely introduced before taking part in the final battle?

[BruceAE]

1 hour ago, Scaeva said:

This season had all the hallmarks of a decision to end it being made midway through shooting it. Too many loose ends left untied, and some of those that were tied up felt rushed, like Lily's radfem terror cell disintegrating as soon as Dorian declaried it dreadfully dull, or Jekyll becoming Hyde through inheritance of a noble title.

What was the point of Dorian if the series was always intended to wrap up after three seasons? He had some great moments this season, but remained mostly disconnected from the rest of the cast and the main goings on. What was the point of Jekyll? Or Catriona, who was barely introduced before taking part in the final battle?

Agreed - it really felt like the show was setting up a lot of elements that really had no time to pay off.  Hyde and Catriona, specifically, felt like they were just waiting for a future storyline in order for their existence in the show to be justified.  As it is they were simply distracting - especially Catriona, who feels like she is from another TV show entirely and suffers also because she is effectively a replacement for Mr. Lyle.

If the season had been more focused it would have felt like less of a betrayal at the end.  As it was Vanessa felt like an extra in  her TV show, Malcolm spent most of his time sitting in Trains or Ships, and key characters never met (Brona/Ethan).

"The End" indeed.

[loki567]

I'm going to assume that Showtime threw a curveball at John Logan, told him at some point during the middle of filming season three that they wouldn't renew, and he had to hurry everything up to get some kind of closure. It seemed like after the Asylum episode the wheels fell off and whatever they were planning to do got swept under the rug. I mean for god's sake, the show dropped Lucifer as a storyline. 

I really think Logan would have approached things differently if he knew it was the final season. No way the characters would have spent most of the season apart otherwise. 

[Wanderdown]

What I did like.

Seward, after it being suggested to her she stay outside as a civilian.  "I'm from New York; I know my way around a gun fight." (Paraphrased)

Seward, at the end.  Everyone else is "I'm staying," when Dracula tells them to leave.  Her?  "Fuck him."

[Ravenya003]

The strangest thing about this episode is that the more important the character, the shittier their send-off was.

Jekyll and Catriona (both relatively pointless in the grand scheme of things) did the best for themselves: Jekyll with the neat twist that revealed he was Mr Hyde all along (an English aristocrat; there's nothing more monstrous on this show) and Catriona with some zingy one-liners and cool fight moves.

The next rung up the ladder were supporting characters Renfield and Dr Seward: the former was possibly the best portrayal of Renfield I've ever seen, and the latter got to prove herself both with finding the location of Dracula and holding her own in battle (plus she got the best line of the episode: "fuck him.") Kaetenay fits here too: a surprising reveal about him being another werewolf, and miraculously surviving battle despite being the only non-white guy.

Next the four supporting regulars: Lily, Frankenstein, Caliban and Dorian had some good material - Lily with her monologue about her daughter, Victor when he finally decided to stop being a douche, and Dorian being surprisingly gentle with both Justine and Lily. And of course Caliban, with his decision not to resurrect his son, his lonely vigil over Vanessa's grave, and the honour of reciting the final poem/getting the final shot. Still, there was a definite sense that the four of them were stuck in subplots that weren't all that important, with fates that remain completely unexplained. 

Then we get to Malcolm (who had top billing) and Dracula (this season's big bad). Malcolm got to lead the fight and had a few nice moments with Kaetenay/Ethan, but for the most part didn't really do much, including killing the monster that killed both his daughters. He didn't even get to see/talk to Vanessa one last time! As for Dracula, he throws our heroes around for a bit, and then just disappears. Buh? No transformation into his true self? No one-on-one fight with the Wolf-Man? No dramatic stake through the heart?

Which then leaves us with our stars: Ethan and Vanessa. Wow did John Logan drop the ball on these two. Not only is Ethan's werewolfry completely irrelevant to the story, but so is he. Anyone could have walked into that room and taken the final shot. This was the great destiny of Lupus Dei? HUH?

And Vanessa. She gets five minutes of screen-time, and uses them to give up. Just ... give up. Yeah, I've read the Variety article about how she finally made her peace with God, but I'm not buying what Logan is selling. Apparently it was her decision to stop the apocalypse but considering she was the one who chose to START it in the first place, I'm not sure how much of a heroic sacrifice it really is. 

This entire show has revolved around how Vanessa's life is worth living, how it's worth protecting and nurturing, both by herself and others. Then she just threw it away with assisted suicide. Why not just have Ethan shoot her dead in the first season? It would have ended the same way, except that seven thousand innocent people who perished in Dracula's poisoned mist would have been spared. Think they're up in heaven too, waiting for Vanessa with a few choice words? 

Despite everything, I'm not as disappointed as others are. This show has never stuck the landing when it comes to its finales, and I was fully prepared for an anti-climax. It was all about the journey, not the destination. That and the Gothic trappings. I'll just imagine an ending for myself in which Vanessa embraces the duel parts of herself, plays out her long con to bring the Wolf of God to Dracula's door and command them to fight, then departs for the Cut Wife's house on the moor with Ethan in tow to become the new wise-woman of the village. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Ravenya003

[BuddhaBelly]

12 hours ago, MissL said:

You know. I cry at everything and I didn't cry when Vanessa died. Mostly because I was so pissed it was done so poorly. I don't mind that she died.. It makes sense from a storyline perspective...I mind that getting to her dying made no sense. 

I don't mind that she died either and I can get behind the idea that the only peace Vanessa was ever going to have would be in heaven but we were cheated out of the lead up to that. I would have killed to see the struggle of everyone trying to save her from the darkness within, Vanessa struggling against it (and yes, I know we've her fight against it before), etc. None of this seems like a sensible lead up from S1+2.

[teddysmom]

Quote

 

I've had a chance to sleep on this (what little sleep I got, between watching this and GoT last night) and I'm not really angry at the ending.
I've seen lots of posts here and other places that complained that it was the Vanessa Ives show, and they were tired of watching her constantly go from being in danger, to rescued, to danger again. But wasn't that the whole point of her dying? There was never going to be a happy ending for her. There was never going to be a happily-ever-after scene of her and Ethan and their adorable kids. This is, for better or worse, the inevitability of how her life HAD to end.

And I don't mind that we'll wonder what happened to Ferdinand Lyle. Or that we won't know what the future held for Ethan or Malcolm or Victor. Or John Clare. Isn't that actually the highest praise that we can give a writer, whether it be a show, a book, a movie? That we become so engrossed and invested in the characters and their lives that we are left wondering, maybe creating in our  own minds what paths their futures may have taken?

Don't get me wrong, I could have watched an entire season more of Eva Green chewing up everything in sight, or John Clare reciting heartbreaking poetry. But I don't mind how they chose to end it. Except I never got to see a hot sex scene between Ethan and Vanessa. I'll have to just imagine that one in my head :)

 

Totally agree.  I think the fact that we're all upset about it ending shows how vested we were in these characters, and that is a very high compliment to John Logan and the cast.  I rewatched "Little Scorpion" this morning and the chemistry between Josh & Eva is just insane.  

Yes the least they could have done was give us a sex scene with Ethan & Vanessa.

 

Quote

Which then leaves us with our stars: Ethan and Vanessa. Wow did John Logan drop the ball on these two. Not only is Ethan's werewolfry completely irrelevant to the story, but so is he. Anyone could have walked into that room and taken the final shot. This was the great destiny of Lupus Dei? HUH?

I thought the same thing this morning.  I think even if he hadn't been turned into Lupus Dei, he would have done it.  He loved her and put her out of her misery.  And as Vanessa said in the last scene of "Closer Than Sisters",  "I love you in a different way. I love you enough to kill you". 

Edited June 21, 2016 by teddysmom

[LadyChaos]

I think that we are more upset that we don't feel like they told a complete story.  I could have accepted Vanessa having to die, I even agree it makes sense.  However, Ethan being a werewolf was rendered irrelevant, in fact if he had not been then he never would have left her in the first place and then she wouldn't have been emotionally weak to have been pray for Dracula, again. I do think that we should have gotten time of them being happy, they could have at least given us a sex scene in the cut wife's cottage. 

A truer ending, in my opinion, would have been having Vanessa kill Dracula, and then begging Ethan to kill her, because Dracula may be gone, but the devil still could use her. 

[MsChipper]

I also thought of Buffy & Angel at that final scene. In fact, I was hoping I'd see her hand shoot out of that grave and Clare would be there to pull her out. :(

And I did cry at the end when Ethan realized that the only way to save her, was end her life, but I was pissed that the entire final season was basically wasted with the whole cast getting separated for too long. If this were to be the final season, then we could have easily had the last 4 episodes of them coming together and fighting to save evil!Vanessa, which would lead to the finale of having the gang fight Vanessa, and both Dracula and Lucifer. And THEN end the series by destroying both villains (with Ethan's wolfy powers combined with her voodoo talk (or holy talk instead?)) and then having Vanessa finally die in Ethan's arms but both accepting their love of each other.  

I mean, if this was an end to a series, I would've worked around that idea instead of wasting it by having too much Lily (sorry, but I didn't care for her pseudo feminist monologues and sudden sorrow about having a daughter that was not mentioned all through the show until the last few episodes), overly long chasing scenes of Ethan in the dessert with that bald clown, unnecessary comic book Cat (I would've like to see Mr Lyle shoot a few vampires instead), and Vanessa going on one too many dates with Dracula.

But yanno, that's just me.

Edited June 21, 2016 by MsChipper

[Broderbits]

I think the loss we are feeling towards these characters is due more to the artistry of the actors and the cinematographer than the skill of the writers. I almost gave up  on the show in the 1st season because it was starting to bore me, but EG & RK pulled me back in.

MsChipper, I too expected Vanessa's hand to pop up out of the grave, a la Carrie! Also, Lily was a snooze to me from her first scene; altogether too much time wasted on her in the series.

[sjohnson]

In my opinion, there was no good way to sell Vanessa Ives turning evil, nor was there any way to sell her miraculously changing her mind and opting for assisted suicide. Dragging it out with histrionics, even Eva Green histrionics, wouldn't make it any more believable. I think dragging it out would have made its falsity even more apparent. The quick and dirty scenes we got were like doing amputations without anesthesia as quickly as possible. 

As per popular request, the show was reduced to nothing but Eva Green shenanigans, therefore all there was to do was either she ends the world or she goes down pretty much as shown. They'd turned her into the most powerful character in the world, therefore it all had to be her choice. But she was the queen of suffering heroine, not queen of conquering heroine. So all she could do to top her "arc" was martyrdom. Sometimes, though, I think it's not always best to listen to the fans.

[GenieinTX]

14 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I think I could have accepted it if they had gotten one good love scene in for ethaneasa but no they could not give us that so now I'm mad

It wasn't even a good kiss.  If it had been a massive passionate kiss like the one in the thunderstorm, it would have been better.  He just barely kissed her and shot her.  If he had talked a bit about how he had failed her by leaving it would have been something. 

Overall, I'm not mad at the ending, but it could have been so much better.

[ElleMo]

Frankenstein's monster had the biggest impact on me this episode. The ending left me vary sad for Mr. Clare.  I think his character grew the most throughout the series.  I went from hating him to understanding him then even liking and empathizing with him.  He made the difficult but noble and unselfish decision to not resurrect his son.  Now he has lost his son. lost his wife and lost his only friend, Vanessa, and doesn't even get to grieve at a funeral like everyone else.  He has to stand in the shadows.

 

The episode was fine. I would have been ok  as a series finale had the series not made me think it was prepping us for the next season.  Why introduce Dr. Jekyll  and do absolutely nothing of consequence with his character? I was all prepared for a 4th season with a mummy.  Remember Mr. Lyle went to Egypt.  They could have sent him anywhere in the world. What's the point of sending him to Egypt if he doesn't come back with a mummy?

Edited June 21, 2016 by ElleMo

[BuddhaBelly]

Why even mention Imhotep? Why all the unnecessary teasing? And poor Henry...so much potential.

[loki567]

24 minutes ago, BuddhaBelly said:

Why even mention Imhotep? Why all the unnecessary teasing? And poor Henry...so much potential.

I'm going to guess that Logan still had a little bit of hope that the ratings would improve and they still had a shot at season four. Which is why for the most part all the storylines were extremely open-ended. Even Vanessa's death could be easily handwaved away in the event of a renewal. 

I'll say it again, I think Logan was caught in a catch-22. If Showtime told him this was the last nine episodes, he would have approached the season completely differently and most of the characters would started closer together. Instead I think Showtime told him no renewal midpoint during filming when Ethan and Malcolm were still in America and Logan was stuck. He had to have some sort of confrontation between Ethan and his father to pay off all the time spent on it. But that also meant he couldn't reasonably get them back in London until the finale. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Penny Dreadful Ends Its Third Season In The Most Surprising Way Possible

...Huh.

[snowblossom2]

5 hours ago, ElleMo said:

Frankenstein's monster had the biggest impact on me this episode. The ending left me vary sad for Mr. Clare.  I think his character grew the most throughout the series.  I went from hating him to understanding him then even liking and empathizing with him.  He made the difficult but noble and unselfish decision to not resurrect his son.  Now he has lost his son. lost his wife and lost his only friend, Vanessa, and doesn't even get to grieve at a funeral like everyone else.  He has to stand in the shadows.

 

The episode was fine. I would have been ok  as a series finale had the series not made me think it was prepping us for the next season.  Why introduce Dr. Jekyll  and do absolutely nothing of consequence with his character? I was all prepared for a 4th season with a mummy.  Remember Mr. Lyle went to Egypt.  They could have sent him anywhere in the world. What's the point of sending him to Egypt if he doesn't come back with a mummy?

Though I don't really understand why John Clare had to grieve away from the funeral. Why couldn't he join them? There were three other pallbearers besides Malcolm (I didn't specifically look but it didn't seem like Ethan, Victor or Dorian were the others, though I could be wrong)

[lmsweb]

27 minutes ago, snowblossom2 said:

Though I don't really understand why John Clare had to grieve away from the funeral. Why couldn't he join them? There were three other pallbearers besides Malcolm (I didn't specifically look but it didn't seem like Ethan, Victor or Dorian were the others, though I could be wrong)

I believe it was Malcolm, Ethan, Katenay and Victor. If John Clare had joined them Victor would have gone nuts. And as well, his relationship with Vanessa was always separate and apart from her relationship with everyone else. I liked that he was the last one left at her grave. It seemed somehow fitting, to me.

[raven]

I don't think John Clare has met Malcolm or Ethan.   I think he would have felt like he was intruding.  It would have been nice to get a scene with him and Victor.  John Clare's essentially alone now, assuming he doesn't got back to his wife since he didn't try to resurrect his son. 

34 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

I liked that he was the last one left at her grave. It seemed somehow fitting, to me.

She was his only friend.  It was a really poignant scene.

I have to agree with a lot of everyone's points...the finale felt incomplete, what was the point of a lot of things that you've all articulated already.

John Logan can talk about 3 seasons all he wants, but if Showtime wanted a S4, there would be a S4. 

And Mr. Lyle should have been there.  Was Simon Russell Beale not available or something?  That makes me cranky.

Yeah, there were plot holes and WTF moments but PD was a unique show for me and I'll miss it. 

[Glade]

It is so poignant and fitting that John Claire was the last person at her grave, alone.  Victor never knew that John Claire had met Vanessa, and as the last time they saw each other JC promised to come back and kill Victor someday, it wasn't the right moment to reunite.  In fact John Claire had the opportunity to tell Vanessa that he had been resurrected by Victor but instead, selflessly told her a story about an accident so as not to be vindictive about it.  Perhaps if S3's story had been stretched across two seasons, there wouldn't be so many secrets and words left unsaid. 

Honestly, I imagine John's next step will be to find some way to kill himself.   He had absolutely nothing left.  If his wife had died instead then at least he would have had a bittersweet ending of being a single father with his beautiful son. 

[snowblossom2]

1 hour ago, lmsweb said:

I believe it was Malcolm, Ethan, Katenay and Victor. If John Clare had joined them Victor would have gone nuts. And as well, his relationship with Vanessa was always separate and apart from her relationship with everyone else. I liked that he was the last one left at her grave. It seemed somehow fitting, to me.

 

1 hour ago, raven said:

I don't think John Clare has met Malcolm or Ethan.   I think he would have felt like he was intruding.  It would have been nice to get a scene with him and Victor.  John Clare's essentially alone now, assuming he doesn't got back to his wife since he didn't try to resurrect his son. 

She was his only friend.  It was a really poignant scene.

I have to agree with a lot of everyone's points...the finale felt incomplete, what was the point of a lot of things that you've all articulated already.

John Logan can talk about 3 seasons all he wants, but if Showtime wanted a S4, there would be a S4. 

And Mr. Lyle should have been there.  Was Simon Russell Beale not available or something?  That makes me cranky.

Yeah, there were plot holes and WTF moments but PD was a unique show for me and I'll miss it. 

 

33 minutes ago, Glade said:

It is so poignant and fitting that John Claire was the last person at her grave, alone.  Victor never knew that John Claire had met Vanessa, and as the last time they saw each other JC promised to come back and kill Victor someday, it wasn't the right moment to reunite.  In fact John Claire had the opportunity to tell Vanessa that he had been resurrected by Victor but instead, selflessly told her a story about an accident so as not to be vindictive about it.  Perhaps if S3's story had been stretched across two seasons, there wouldn't be so many secrets and words left unsaid. 

Honestly, I imagine John's next step will be to find some way to kill himself.   He had absolutely nothing left.  If his wife had died instead then at least he would have had a bittersweet ending of being a single father with his beautiful son. 

Thanks everyone, that makes sense!

[darkestboy]

This was something of an odd set of episodes. I liked a lot of what happened here but there was so much left hanging/unresolved too.

It did seem like Vanessa gave up too easily and the fact that she was barely in the episodes seemed a weird writing choice. Her death though did pack the right punch with Ethan in the mix as well.

The confrontation with Dracula had it's moments (Seward's reaction mostly) but again, he just disappeared after Vanessa was killed.

I did like the scenes with Malcolm/Catriona/Seward/Renfield and Malcolm/Ethan in the episodes though and London certainly looked spooky as well.

Lily's story had a better punch as she got the better of both Victor and Dorian. Wasn't sad to see Justine killed either but Henry rarely got to show his true Hyde side though.

Caliban's story had moments too but ultimately while the show was brilliant, it needs a bit more closure than Vanessa's death though, 7/10

[paramitch]

Okay, so: right up front. This wasn't what I wanted, and I'm absolutely gutted this week to discover that this is the end of my favorite show on TV. (I can't even.) And yes, it felt rushed. But there was still so much beauty and nuance, and I am so grateful for what we at least were given. I was not surprised by the resolution, but simply by the haste to get there.

Basically, Josh Logan can put a good face on it as everything he planned but that doesn't explain the NINE EPISODE season. Obviously Showtime shut him down, probably early/mid-season, and he had limited episodes in which to wrap up and finalize his stories.

I can't even imagine the riches if we'd at least gotten a full season of 10 episodes. The beauty of -- perhaps -- an Ethan defeating a Dracula already dying of sadness (I do think he loved Vanessa, weirdly). Of a grieving Mr. Lyle. Or -- most of all for me -- of Lily encountering Ethan for a brief farewell and moment of grace. Of Victor embarking on a quest to stop the potentially monstrous Hyde. Of Malcolm forging a new family of sorts with Ethan, Victor, Catriona and Seward. Of a kind of grace and rapprochement between Victor and my darling John Clare. (How I wish he would have approached them at the funeral, and been accepted...) 

But I also have to admit -- I love the way this show subverted the obvious. The way threads never connected. The way we never saw Ethan meet Lily/Brona. The way we never saw our Victorian superfriends realize just how greyscale Victor had become. These divisions in awareness felt real and complex to me. I liked not knowing all the answers. And even this season -- not knowing what Cat's story was (obviously there's something marvelous and modern there), not knowing everything about Kaetenay and Ethan, etc. I loved it all. 

I knew my lovely weird dark gothic romantic show had to end eventually. I just wish we'd been given more. We deserved more. The characters deserved more. One more hour. One more hour, at least!

On 6/19/2016 at 8:09 PM, raven said:

I liked Dr. Seward's mind game with Renfield.  I liked how they casually picked up Victor at Bedlam "hey we're going to save Vanessa, wanna come" "Sure".

I loved every single moment of Dr. Seward this season. I may have gotten actual chills when she visited him in Bedlam. And the final sequence between the two was everything I love about Logan's writing -- that sense of real sympathy even for the monstrous, for the hidden loneliness of poor Renfield and his desire (so universal on Penny Dreadful) to be loved. And Seward's genuine response of sympathy.

I can't be mad at this season when it gives us gifts like that. When it gives us new characters like Seward, and Cat, and Kaetenay, and even Dracula. I loved every morsel.

On 6/19/2016 at 8:22 PM, raven said:

It's so gothically, tragically Victorian.  She trusted him to do it because he loves her and he did it because he loves her.  She wanted out of the pain and awfulness and he gave that to her.

I'd rather they ended up back on the moors, growing food and wearing fabulous sweaters together myself.

You basically said everything in my subconscious here. Sniffle. In my mind, heaven is Ethan and Vanessa, wearing adorable homespun sweaters and dancing around mutual lust. Darn it.

On 6/19/2016 at 8:34 PM, Jcap said:

Worst ending by a Hollywood mile I've ever seen in a series ever

No showdown between Dracula and Ethan

Vanessa wasn't involved at all in the good against evil struggle...

See, I kind of liked that. This show always zigs when you expect it to zag. So I liked that Dracula was defeated obliquely like that (and kudos to Camargo, who was lovely); I liked that it came down to Vanessa and the war within herself. I have never seen a character as tortured as poor Vanessa, so while I hated the outcome, I believed and understood it. This poor woman had been through so much. even her simple act of self-acceptance had resulted in THE END OF THE WORLD. It broke my heart. So I bought Ethan saving/ending her suffering. I just wish he had also managed to toss off Dracula's adorable head while he was at it (thus fulfilling the prophecy). But Ethan's faith/soulfulness has always been predicted on the show (especially the stunning exorcism), so it never did feel like a cheat to me.

On 6/19/2016 at 9:13 PM, sjohnson said:

Amunet/Vanessa isn't coming back. She saw God, so she's out of the game, home free in heaven. Being the incarnation of an ancient Egyptian sex demon, she was 1)the most powerful character in the series, never needing to be saved but 2) the one we needed to be saved from. This was as happy an ending as she could hope for. This is an unusual type of resolution, the deus ex machina, where God steps in and resolves the story.

This was beautifully put. Vanessa loves God more than anyone else in this story. She has suffered unbearably in that love. I couldn't really see any other outcome for Vanessa for a long time now, so this worked for me (however upset and sad I was). Vanessa has been defined by her faith, by her yearning to see and touch God, to go beyond her curse. So I was grateful that Logan gave us the moment to verify that yes, she had been rewarded for her devotion and struggle. But it broke my heart.

On 6/19/2016 at 10:10 PM, numbnut said:

I'm still confused as hell with the whole Dracula End of Days thing. So Vanessa lets Dracula bite her because she wants to wait for Ethan to kill her? Ugh. Whatever.

Vanessa was simply exhausted. She has spent years and years fighting powerful unearthly demonic forces (not one but two) that not only targeted her, but those she loved. Mourning Ethan, she fell understandably and deeply in love with Sweet/Dracula, gave herself a few moments of abandonment, then poof, all hellfire fell down. I totally got her relinquishing control and loved that when she did so to Dracula, she still retained enough of herself to say, not, "I accept you," but, "I accept myself."

Vanessa simply wore out. She had given all she had. She had suffered years of loneliness, guilt, brutality, mental and emotional torture, physical torture, even metaphysical torture; I don't blame her for a minute. But I loved her strength, humor and compassion, and I will miss her so much.

On 6/19/2016 at 10:57 PM, Glade said:

What???  This can't be the series finale!  This show...brings all of the feels, everyone tonight, Dorian, Victor, John Claire, Ethan...everyone brought it.  The dialogue/writing was absolutely gorgeous, I cried...  I love these characters, this show...it can't be all over now. 

(snip) I'm glad that character and his insistance on being Ethan's father finally paid off and made sense.  Patti Lupone was electrifying with Renfield tonight; I'm so glad they explored his humanity as well, and he didn't die meaninglessly like Fenton in season 1. It makes sense that she was at the battle in the end, just like the book's Dr. Seward, one of Lucy's suitors... 

Beautiful post, as always. I do think we'd have gotten more payoffs on characters like Cat (whom I actually really liked, and was interested to hear more of), but I'm so glad we got the information we did into Ethan and Kaetenay -- I loved every minute. In fact, when Kaetenay wolfed out in the penultimate episode, I started laughing in sheer delight (just as I did in the finale of S1 with Ethan). Kaetenay was caught in a trap too -- turns out, he could wreak his revenge on Ethan for his part in the massacre, but he also could not help but love Ethan too (who couldn't??). So he damned Ethan but he could not leave him. I found it very appropriate and very Josh Logan. And I adored Kaetenay as a character (even if I was haunted by the revelations of what he had done in revenge).

On 6/20/2016 at 0:51 AM, AuntieMame said:

Billie Piper is like watching a train wreck and I've seen her in a !ot of things. I can't say I enjoy it, but I'm damned if I can look away. I think we've really failed with immortal characters who began as humans.

I'm the opposite. Billie Piper's performance as Brona/Lily was easily the revelation of the series for me, and her final monologue to Victor about her daughter rivaled last season's monologue about the predations of men (all EIGHT MINUTES OF IT). I loved Lily, and am so glad Billie Piper got to show her chops with such an amazing character. I was so glad, too, that she was able to be compassionate in the end -- to both Victor and to Dorian. Frankly, she's a better woman than I -- I was completely willing for her to end both of them.

On 6/20/2016 at 8:14 AM, MissVanessaIves said:

I could rewrite the ending of this entire episode but I will just say this. I would have liked to see Ethan go into the room Vanessa was in and have at least 10 to 15 minutes of dialogue before they finally consummate their feelings surrounded by light and candles. As the wolf of God, his light and power would help her transcend and that would be the end of the darkness upon Earth (sending Dracula & creatures of the night back to the Earth)  and he could rule at her side, kind of like a yin and yang. I'm sure there are lots of holes in this theory, but it's all I got........ I'm still so devastated from what I actually saw.

I would have loved all of that too. I just suspect Logan wasn't given the time in which to accomplish it.

On 6/20/2016 at 0:02 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

Among other things, I really feel as if the Brona/Dorian/Prostitute storyline didn't go much of anywhere. While the characters involved got some degree of resolution, it didn't feel as if those resolutions had much to do with that particular plot.

Not every storyline has to end in a cheer or a huge victory. Brona/Lily is one of the most incredible characters and arcs I will take away from this show and its characters, and I am so glad I met them. Brona/Lily is about everything that was wrong with the Victorian Era (or indeed about being a woman at the bottom of the food chain), and Billie Piper was freaking amazing at embodying those qualities. I thought she was resplendent and I will never forget her performances here. They had nothing to do with defeating Dracula. But everything to do with what Vanessa was fighting for.

On 6/20/2016 at 0:10 PM, WaltersHair said:

Other posters here have already eloquently pointed out my problems with the ending. Not to mention that I chose to watch PD over GOT to boot.

I have watched Game of Thrones since the first moment, but I always felt reserved. The show had no heart. The show was a ridiculously beautiful experiment in sadism, withholding specific moments to make us (viewers) as miserable as possible at supreme moments. So now (after last season, not saying more than that), I'm done with GoT. PD had more heart and nuance and love and sympathy in its little finger than GoT had in its entire body. I will remember Vanessa's compassion to John Clare, or Lily's decision to spare Victor, long after anything on GoT.

On 6/20/2016 at 4:41 PM, lmsweb said:

I've seen lots of posts here and other places that complained that it was the Vanessa Ives show, and they were tired of watching her constantly go from being in danger, to rescued, to danger again. But wasn't that the whole point of her dying? There was never going to be a happy ending for her.

So beautifully put. Exactly. Thanks for this and for your whole post. 

On 6/21/2016 at 0:47 AM, loki567 said:

I'm going to assume that Showtime threw a curveball at John Logan, told him at some point during the middle of filming season three that they wouldn't renew, and he had to hurry everything up to get some kind of closure. It seemed like after the Asylum episode the wheels fell off and whatever they were planning to do got swept under the rug. 

I absolutely (sadly) agree with this. I do think Logan did the best he could in wrapping up a rush job, and while it showed, I still loved it. <sniffle>

On 6/21/2016 at 3:35 AM, Ravenya003 said:

Despite everything, I'm not as disappointed as others are. This show has never stuck the landing when it comes to its finales, and I was fully prepared for an anti-climax. It was all about the journey, not the destination. That and the Gothic trappings. I'll just imagine an ending for myself in which Vanessa embraces the duel parts of herself, plays out her long con to bring the Wolf of God to Dracula's door and command them to fight, then departs for the Cut Wife's house on the moor with Ethan in tow to become the new wise-woman of the village. 

Beautiful post, even if I would argue with so much of it in terms of worth -- they were all worthy. But even while doing so, I would secretly imagine the same heaven for Vanessa and Ethan too. <sobs>

19 hours ago, ElleMo said:

Frankenstein's monster had the biggest impact on me this episode. The ending left me vary sad for Mr. Clare.  I think his character grew the most throughout the series.  I went from hating him to understanding him then even liking and empathizing with him.

I definitely feel like the return of Mr. Lyle and a divine Mummy (and an equally divine Mr. Hyde) would have been the main plot points of Season 4.  But oh, I loved our darling Mr. Clare, and believe me, I was so angry with him in S1 that feels like a miracle. I mean, I never thought I'd forgive him for our sweet Mr. Proteus (RIP). But I love him the most aside from V and Ethan.

13 hours ago, raven said:

Yeah, there were plot holes and WTF moments but PD was a unique show for me and I'll miss it. 

I agree that it all came down to Showtime and they let Logan down, so he decided to put the best face possible on it.

But oh, I'll miss our sweet gothic show, and the sublime actors and conversations that were a part of it. I'll miss it so much.

And thank you to the cast for the best work they've done on a career-long basis. I was so impressed and wowed, not just by the goddess Eva Green, but by the wonderful beautiful Josh Hartnett, Billie Piper, Timothy Dalton, and our other supporting cast. The best acting on TV has occurred on this show, even if it was lamentably ignored.

I'll miss my darling Penny Dreadful, but thank you to you all, for this time of conversation in the Demimonde.

Edited June 22, 2016 by paramitch
the hell of typos