O.J.: Made In America - Part 2

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Part 2 of 5. While racial tension boils over in early-'90s Los Angeles, O.J. Simpson remains a world apart in exclusive Brentwood, cultivating a perfect image atop a life of secrets. Directed by Ezra Edelman.

[bosawks]

Hey, Mark Fuhrman, shut the fuck up!

[GreatKazu]

The Harlings murder case. The mere mention of that murder case makes my blood boil because of the killer getting away with killing that young child. It is the same rage I feel over Simpson having gotten away with two murders.

[RCharter]

This reminds me so much of the book Native Son.

[Guest]

I forget the interviewee's name but his anecdote about OJ getting what he wanted and then, when asked how he did it, OJ waved his hand around his face and said, "This," floored me for the rest of the episode. I was torn between laughing about it because it was pretty funny (and accurate) and being disgusted.

And what's with the secrecy of the Marcus Allen affair after all these years? That same interviewee flat out refused to answer the question about Nicole and Marcus (while actually answering it with his silence) and Marcus was scarily sincere in denying it in his deposition.

The Harlings murder case I didn't even know about but the acquittal of the King-beating officers I did. I don't blame the community one bit for rioting. What else could they possibly do at that point? And it goes without saying that Daryl Gates was garbage of the lowest kind.

[smiley13]

Marcus Allen continues to skate through with his involvement in all of this.    I still think that Marcus Allen lied during his deposition and faced no repercussions for it.  

I wish they would have spent more time discussing the background of OJ and not the misdeeds of the LAPD.  These shows continue to skate around Nicole's history.  So there was no mention of her partying it up with druggie Faye Resnick?  

It seems like the most truthful accounts of Nicole actually came from Resnick,

[Janc]

6 minutes ago, smiley13 said:

 These shows continue to skate around Nicole's history.  So there was no mention of her partying it up with druggie Faye Resnick?  

How would that be relevant to this story?  

[Midnight Cheese]

8 minutes ago, Janc said:

How would that be relevant to this story?  

This. 

The series is amazing.  Seeing Fuhrman talk about a community burning itself down - it is to laugh.  To laugh bitterly, at least.  I did not know about Latasha Harlins's murder.   That footage was so shocking. 

[Hanahope]

10 hours ago, GreatKazu said:

The Harlings murder case. The mere mention of that murder case makes my blood boil because of the killer getting away with killing that young child.

Especially since the video is clear that Harlings had put down the juice and was walking away.  She was shot from behind, clearly no threat at all.  I had forgotten how relatively close in time it all was.  And rewatching that Rodney King video, I still don't understand how a jury could find the cops didn't use excessive force.  Seriously, I cannot believe for a second that they were in that much fear for their lives, when King was on the ground, and just trying to get his face up and not to eat dirt.  

 

Really makes you understand why African Americans rallied behind OJ during the trial, even if he was guilty and even if OJ didn't associate with them, they associated with him.  He was their hero, the one they could point to and say, hey if you have talent and work hard, you can be like OJ and have it all. You could see where they would feel that if OJ could be convicted, then none of them were safe ever.

 

And there is more proof for my theory that OJ is a sociopath.  The way he cheated at golf?  Really?

[RCharter]

59 minutes ago, Janc said:

How would that be relevant to this story?  

I'd actually like to know.  I mean, this is a five part series and so it can and should be an in-depth look at OJ and his life.  Was he involved in the drug scene?  Was he involved with Faye Resnick?  Did Nicole feel as though she had to escape to drug abuse because she could never escape OJ?  How long was she into drugs?  Was this something that OJ knew ahead of time and was it part of the reason he decided to seek her out?  There are so many aspects of the story...as its being told....that I find fascinating.  And certainly the public image of the Simpsons vs. the private world is one aspect of that....the juxtaposition of drug use and the private hell to the happy pictures and videos on the lawn of Rockingham.

There are aspects to this story that I never picked up on when it happened so long ago.  I knew there was domestic abuse, but I didn't realize just how much the Brown family relied on OJ, and the terrible feeling that Nicole must have had knowing that her family would side with OJ.  The fact that he creepily watched her have sex with her boyfriend.

And WTF is up with Marcus Allen.....that was something I knew absolutely nothing about.  And I have no idea what the big deal is, since OJ saw fit to cheat on Nicole with every skirt that passed him and tried to cheat with his wife's friend.  Why so secretive, whats the big deal?

50 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

This. 

The series is amazing.  Seeing Fuhrman talk about a community burning itself down - it is to laugh.  To laugh bitterly, at least.  I did not know about Latasha Harlins's murder.   That footage was so shocking. 

Yeah, there was a small part of me that was like "yeah, you know what, it was a mistake for the community to burn itself down, they should have gone to Simi Valley and burned that down....then maybe you would have really paid attention."

I thought I had seen it all with weird judges with this Brock Turner case....but that judge takes the absolute cake.  You can kill someone....on camera and get probation?

[RCharter]

18 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Especially since the video is clear that Harlings had put down the juice and was walking away.  She was shot from behind, clearly no threat at all.  I had forgotten how relatively close in time it all was.  And rewatching that Rodney King video, I still don't understand how a jury could find the cops didn't use excessive force.  Seriously, I cannot believe for a second that they were in that much fear for their lives, when King was on the ground, and just trying to get his face up and not to eat dirt.  

 

Really makes you understand why African Americans rallied behind OJ during the trial, even if he was guilty and even if OJ didn't associate with them, they associated with him.  He was their hero, the one they could point to and say, hey if you have talent and work hard, you can be like OJ and have it all. You could see where they would feel that if OJ could be convicted, then none of them were safe ever.

 

And there is more proof for my theory that OJ is a sociopath.  The way he cheated at golf?  Really?

And exactly how many cops were there?  Like 10?  He was going to get up and grab your gun after you have administered a solid beating and the man is just trying to crawl away from a beating?  And the LAPD can keep pretending like that doesn't happen, but we just saw that case of the guy who stole the horse and caught a beating.....some cops can do a lot of things when they don't know someone is watching.

What struck me is again, how OJ benefited from the pain and struggle of others.  He benefited at USC from others rallying for civil rights, while he kept his hands clean.  Other athletes banded together and struggled for civil rights and he reaped the rewards.  Rodney King and Latasha Harlan and others had to bear police brutallity, but it was OJ who reaped the rewards of people who were angry at the system.

[smiley13]

1 hour ago, Janc said:

How would that be relevant to this story?  

In ten hours, it would be interesting to know more about her and her life.  Her past has been seemingly ignored in all of the coverage.

At least they did touch on the fact that he supported her whole family.

[Guest]

These shows continue to skate around Nicole's history.

Her past has been seemingly ignored in all of the coverage.

Good - her past is totally irrelevant to not only this filmmaker's thesis, but to the crime itself. This documentary is called, "OJ: Made in America." It is attempting to put OJ, his crimes, his trial, and his acquittal into historical context. Nicole could have been a druggie, a hooker, a whatever one wants, none of that matters. She was a human being who became an innocent murder victim. That's the only thing of importance here.

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, Janc said:

How would that be relevant to this story?  

Not at all.

[DangerousMinds]

AFAIK, Nicole (and probably OJ's) drug/alcohol use was merely social, like many many many others'. Not particularly relevant to this series.

[Primetimer]

'Part 2' uses the passing of years and screentime minutes to retell old stories.

View the full article

[RCharter]

19 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

 

 

 

Good - her past is totally irrelevant to not only this filmmaker's thesis, but to the crime itself. This documentary is called, "OJ: Made in America." It is attempting to put OJ, his crimes, his trial, and his acquittal into historical context. Nicole could have been a druggie, a hooker, a whatever one wants, none of that matters. She was a human being who became an innocent murder victim. That's the only thing of importance here.

But, I think Nicole was a big part of OJ's life, so understanding her and who she was may help to understand who he was, and his crimes.  To me, the documentary is about a lot of things, including who OJ really is, and what made him who he is, what drove him.  There are things about Nicole that tell me something about OJ.  He picked an 18 year old girl, when he was a 30 year old man.....that tells me that OJ is the sort of cat that probably wanted to be able to control whomever he was with to some degree.  A grown man doesn't pick a girl fresh out of high school without a reason.  Her past may offer additional clues as to why he picked her and how he was going to control her.  Including the fact that he found a girl who had an entire family that was pretty much willing to rely on him for money.  That is part of her past too.   

If OJ was incandescent with rage at Nicole over some perceived or actual affair it tells me that he is that guy that feels as though he should be able to cheat on a woman, but she dare not cheat on him.  Even when separated.

I just think that the person you pick to spend your life with may say something about you....good, bad or otherwise.  So understanding a person's spouse may provide clues to understanding them.  

If Nicole used drugs and partied.....so what.  If anything I think it makes her a more three dimensional person, and she is part of OJ's story.  If Nicole used drugs and partied, it just adds to the idea that OJ was so intent on protecting his image that he never tried to seriously get her help, but instead heaped abuse on her.  

And just on a curious note, what in the world did OJ do to get her to call people and tell them that it was a false report of abuse?  Why did she keep those pictures?  On the one hand she was protecting him, but on the other hand she kept evidence of his abuse.  I just wonder why.

 

ETA: I understand why people might think who Nicole was may have no bearing on the story though.  I just sort of think it does make sense to try to understand who she was.

Edited June 15, 2016 by RCharter

[le bordel chaud]

I too would like to know more about Nicole. Yes none of what she did makes her any less of a victim of a horrible crime. But I see her as somewhat complicit in these games she and OJ played. The whole thing with Marcus is just bad form. I wish they had been more clear on the timeline of when their alleged affair took place. Before and after he married Kathryn? This is the first time I've seen it put out there as fact that the affair happened, no? And it is definitely a motive for why he finally killed her.

[angelamh66]

I also found Fuhrman's presence to be jarring, especially with no lead-in.

And I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion but I will never understand the rioting, here or in any other similar instance. I do understand being so pissed off that you feel violent and like nothing would feel better than to act on that violence, but in this type of scenario doesn't it just give those that want to paint people of color in a certain violent and lawless light more ammo to do so? And I will never understand how beating a white truck driver nearly to death accomplishes anything for the cause. Two wrongs do not make a right and that guy was just going about his day trying to do his job and had nothing to do with any of the LAPD stuff.

[RCharter]

4 minutes ago, angelamh66 said:

I also found Fuhrman's presence to be jarring, especially with no lead-in.

And I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion but I will never understand the rioting, here or in any other similar instance. I do understand being so pissed off that you feel violent and like nothing would feel better than to act on that violence, but in this type of scenario doesn't it just give those that want to paint people of color in a certain violent and lawless light more ammo to do so? And I will never understand how beating a white truck driver nearly to death accomplishes anything for the cause. Two wrongs do not make a right and that guy was just going about his day trying to do his job and had nothing to do with any of the LAPD stuff.

I don't think it was logical.....it was emotional, but the emotions are understandable.  Years and years of abuse and being told that no matter what, the police are always right, the system is always right, and you are always wrong, and you should always just be put down and debased and you should just take it with a smile....and you better not say anything about it, because you're at fault for even complaining about abusive treatment.

If the heart was logical...it would be the brain.

As far as ammo....the people who wanted to berate black people didn't really need a reason to paint them as violent as lawless, they did it no matter what.

[Bannon]

  28 minutes ago, angelamh66 said:

I also found Fuhrman's presence to be jarring, especially with no lead-in.

And I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion but I will never understand the rioting, here or in any other similar instance. I do understand being so pissed off that you feel violent and like nothing would feel better than to act on that violence, but in this type of scenario doesn't it just give those that want to paint people of color in a certain violent and lawless light more ammo to do so? And I will never understand how beating a white truck driver nearly to death accomplishes anything for the cause. Two wrongs do not make a right and that guy was just going about his day trying to do his job and had nothing to do with any of the LAPD stuff.

I don't think it was logical.....it was emotional, but the emotions are understandable.  Years and years of abuse and being told that no matter what, the police are always right, the system is always right, and you are always wrong, and you should always just be put down and debased and you should just take it with a smile....and you better not say anything about it, because you're at fault for even complaining about abusive treatment.

If the heart was logical...it would be the brain.

As far as ammo....the people who wanted to berate black people didn't really need a reason to paint them as violent as lawless, they did it no matter what.

This is what people don't understand about police offciers, quite often. They are emotional creatures, too. Labeling King a mere "drunk miscreant" really doesn't describe the situation. A 100 m.p.h. high speed chase, through residential neighborhoods, is simply a terrifying thing. Absolutely terrifying, for anyone..Absolutely terrified, intoxicated with adrenaline, human beings, are not rational, not even close.

Should these cops have been convicted? Yes, they chose the job, and with that choice comes unrenounceable responsibility. Is it at all surprising that people who have just been through an extended, 100 m.p.h. chase, through residential neighborhoods, would beat the living feces out the person who was the source of that terrifying experience? Not at all, really.

[RCharter]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

This is what people don't understand about police offciers, quite often. They are emotional creatures, too. Labeling King a mere "drunk miscreant" really doesn't describe the situation. A 100 m.p.h. high speed chase, through residential neighborhoods, is simply a terrifying thing. Absolutely terrifying, for anyone..Absolutely terrified, intoxicated with adrenaline, human beings, are not rational, not even close.

Should these cops have been convicted? Yes, they chose the job, and with that choice comes unrenounceable responsibility. Is it at all surprising that people who have just been through an extended, 100 m.p.h. chase, through residential neighborhoods, would beat the living feces out the person who was the source of that terrifying experience? Not at all, really.

The difference is that we legally give cops a gun, a badge, and the power to use legal force.  We also give them training.  If you're the type of person that can't handle emotional and difficult situations...cop is not the right job for you and you should not aspire to be a police officer.  If you're going to be so terrified by one man when you have 10 other cops around and after you have beaten him and he is crawling...you are not cut out to be a cop.

There should not even be the idea that you extend the same expectation to a cop that you would to anyone in the general public.  We should hold cops above the general public because we do give them so much power.  And if they can't handle that power, they need to go and do something else with their life.  

To forgive, or even extend some understanding to the notion that a cops first inclination is to beat someone senseless for breaking the law is a very, very scary proposition for me.  Because we trust police officers with lawbreakers every....single....day.  That is their job.  If they cannot do that job without beating the tar out of offenders than they have no business doing that job and maybe they need to sit behind a desk....or go work at an auto parts store.  

If the way cops deal with a lawbreaker is to give into some natural inclination to beat them senseless....thats not good, or acceptable to me...at all.  If the natural inclination is to beat that person senseless for an extended period of time, when the person is clearly subdued and on the ground....when you have the time and ability to think sensibly....when you have waited a few seconds and administered even more hits with a baton and even more of a beating.  No....just no...no, no, no, no.  There is nothing about that that I understand or find acceptable or reasonable.  

Edited June 15, 2016 by RCharter

[reggiejax]

Regarding the idea of the relevance of Nicole Simpson's drug use, my answer would be, it depends.

Is it relevant to the documentary? Seeing as how this is a film that is employing a very wide scope, about the murders, those involved, and society at large, I would say delving into who Nicole Simpson was is relevant. She was the victim, after all. And like it or not, her drug use was part of who she was. If they can bring up Marcus Allen, I don't see why her drug use would be out of bounds. Part of this story is OJ embracing the "Brentwood lifestyle", and if part of that is Nicole Simpson's drug use, or OJ's for that matter, then it is relevant.  

Is it relevant to the murder? Only if Nicole's drug use was the catalyst for her murder. But except for Johnnie Cochran's pathetic attempts to make it so (what with his hair brained talk of "Columbian neckties" and "the world of Faye Resnick", all of which fell flat), it was not. So the answer is a resounding NO.

Edited June 15, 2016 by reggiejax

[Janc]

47 minutes ago, reggiejax said:

Part of this story is OJ embracing the "Brentwood lifestyle", and if part of that is Nicole Simpson's drug use, or OJ's for that matter, then it is relevant.

Just listening to this podcast (Vulture) with an interview with the director.  Starting at around 26:10, he discusses that he considered including mention of OJ's rumored long-time cocaine use. 

[Kbilly]

Not that it was any less disturbing than the Rodney King footage but the Reginald Denny beating was so shocking because the light of day, his visible blood. Watching the riots it is hard to believe that happened here--with those two men shooting guns using a car as cover like a movie--wow. This country feels just as volatile today.

It absolutely broke my heart to see Nicole's repeated evidence of beatings, of OJ's friends saying they knew he "beat the hell out her" and that totally disgusting interview with Roy Firestone where they make light of and excuse his arrest for beating Nicole, OJ smiling and laughing and Firestone telling him "You bounce back from something like this". !!!!! Made me think--are we still doing this today? In light of the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard situation?

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"I see her as somewhat complicit in these games she and OJ played."

He beat her. Repeatedly. Badly. That isn't "games." Neither is her deciding to go back to him, which likely was motivated by similar wheedling/threatening to what got Nicole to call the CEO of Hertz and tell him it was all just a big misunderstanding. I'm not seeing a huge range of choices for her here when he's stalking her and isolating her from her family.

Yes, some people do get a charge out of the fight/makeup cycle, but this is...not that. He literally terrorized her. Going along so you aren't beaten up again isn't "complicity."

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's return to discussing the topic of the show; events in Los Angeles do inform the show, but this is not the place to argue about them. Also, please refer to the site policy here.
 

[poeticlicensed]

I read many years ago, probably around the time of the trial that OJ was basically supporting Nicole's family. That before OJ, they didn't have much and when Nicole would talk about leaving him, she felt pressured to stay because not only was supporting her, he was supporting her extended family. I wonder how much she told her family about his abuse before she left him. Clearly it was going on for years, given her journaling. If she told her family and they encouraged her stay with him, then shame on them. I don't know its' true or not, but if your child visits and has visible bruises, you gotta know somethings not right. 

As far as Fuhrman, he can have many seats, IMO. Really, douche, choke hold would have stopped the whole Rodney King thing (beating and riots) from happening? Screw you asshole. Maybe if you weren't such a rascist asshole Simpson might have been convicted (although I doubt it). I did find it interesting that all the LAPD guys they interviewed all defended the department, even in light of the video. I hadn't seen the Rodney King video in years. How disturbing. They were just beating and beating and beating, even when he was on the ground.

 I am white I too  used to wonder why blacks would burn down their communities. Looking at the situation with my 2016 eyes, after Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Walter Scott, Freddy Gray, etc, yeah, I get it now. When you have nothing to lose, if you think no one listens or  cares, then why not? Everyone looks at events through their own lens, and if your lens is that the police have always been respectful to you, then you cannot fathom that not everyone has had that experience. Events have shown that the black community has a much different relationship with the police. I hope people get past the sensational part of the OJ story and really watch the parts about race relations in LA. It is profound. 

As far as OJ,. talk about forgetting your roots. Combined with a massive ego and lots of yes men, and drugs and money and whatever else, you get as someone upthread said "a squandered life". Look at all the sports figures and celebrities who have given back. OJ, he just turned his back.

[Hanahope]

12 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

hat before OJ, they didn't have much and when Nicole would talk about leaving him, she felt pressured to stay because not only was supporting her, he was supporting her extended family.

This is why I think that had Fred Goldman not continued with the civil case and forced a trial, the Browns would have settled very quietly and the whole thing would have gone away.

[absolutelyido]

What I would like to know about was any prior violent behavior OJ had before Nicole. Was he violent with his first wife? Did he display fits of outrage with anyone else in his life? It would seem unlikely that he was only violent against Nicole, but that is all they have talked about.

[RCharter]

3 minutes ago, absolutelyido said:

What I would like to know about was any prior violent behavior OJ had before Nicole. Was he violent with his first wife? Did he display fits of outrage with anyone else in his life? It would seem unlikely that he was only violent against Nicole, but that is all they have talked about.

I agree that this would be something interesting to know.  Just because I feel that there may be a weird and twisted thought process where he almost didn't see her as a person, but really as a thing.  I mean, he met her when he was almost 2x her age....when she was young and probably didn't have much of a voice.

Versus his marriage to his first wife where they were pretty close in age, and they seem to have known each other for quite a while.  

I also had just assumed he broke up with his first wife because he had been blinded by the lifestyle and the glamour and thought he was better than her.  I didn't realize that the loss of their child may have been the catalyst for their divorce.

I mean, even when they talk about them meeting, he only talked about what Nicole looked like.  And, I think its interesting to think that she may have only represented the "perfect" or "ideal" woman to him.  Blonde hair, slim, young, a California/Barbie look.  His first wife was gorgeous, IMO, but she may not have been as much of an object as Nicole was, because his first wife wasn't that "California Barbie" look that can be sometimes put on a pedestal.   And this is why knowing about Nicole as a person interests me.  Was she always "headstrong and determined?"  Or did that part of her personality form as she grew up and OJ struggled to keep her.

I think that if you see someone as an object and not as a person its easier to treat them....like an object.  

[jaync]

Quote

How would that be relevant to this story?  

I suppose there could be some relevancy if there's to be an exploration of the belief that the murders were somehow justified, or that O.J. was innocent of them altogether. Other than that, I have no idea, and am really hoping Faye Resnick plays no part in this series.

O.J.'s creepin'...good lawd. Giving a boyfriend a bj while the kids are asleep upstairs might not be the best judgement call ever, but neither is leaving two butchered bodies laying around for them to find.

Quote

If the way cops deal with a lawbreaker is to give into some natural inclination to beat them senseless....thats not good, or acceptable to me...at all.

It shouldn't be acceptable to anybody. The job of the police is to enforce the law, not execute punishment.

One reveal that stood out for me was that O.J. blamed Marguerite for the death of their child (though not surprising, given his character). I also didn't know about him being a co-owner of HoneyBaked Ham.

Quote

What I would like to know about was any prior violent behavior OJ had before Nicole. Was he violent with his first wife?

Marguerite separated from O.J. several times, and filed for divorce, in the years before he even met Nicole, so I don't think it's a stretch that he may have cheated on and beat her, too. And, that she kept returning to him for the same reasons Nicole did.

Quote

I hope people get past the sensational part of the OJ story and really watch the parts about race relations in LA. It is profound. 

Yes, and just/almost as notable is the classicism aspect. If O.J. had been Orenthal from South Central, there's no way he would've been allowed - after the ninth time the cops had been called - to leave and get dressed while a lone cop waited outside. As well, he wouldn't have been given that cupcake community "service".

O.J. really was good in the Naked Gun movies. It's a shame he didn't put in the same effort as a husband, father, and community member.

[Court]

I found the parts about the domestic abuse very difficult to watch. I didn't realize that pretty much everyone knew he beat the crap out of her over and over again. 

Wasn't he still married when he started dating Nicole? 

[jaync]

Yes, Marguerite didn't go through with the divorce after filing, so they were still married.

[Court]

I had to look away when they showed the Rodney King beating. Horrific does not even begin to describe that.

I was very young when that happened and remembered hearing about it but it wasn't something I could fully understand at the time.

I did not know about the Harlan case either. Also, horrific.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Hey, Mark Fuhrman, shut the fuck up!

This just cannot be said enough.

[AimingforYoko]

Other than Mark Fuhrman (as many have said, STFU. Man, he's learned exactly zero) the one who pissed me off was Roy Firestone in that puff piece interview with OJ. The sad part is I'm sure he thought he was being tough, "They're making you sound like a wife-beater!" Well, there's a reason for that, Roy.

[Ohwell]

I remember in an interview Marguerite Simpson said that OJ had never abused her.  The line I remember most is her saying that if he had tried she would have hit him upside the head with a frying pan.  I think the interview was with Barbara Walters, sometime during the trial.  

[RCharter]

35 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

Other than Mark Fuhrman (as many have said, STFU. Man, he's learned exactly zero) the one who pissed me off was Roy Firestone in that puff piece interview with OJ. The sad part is I'm sure he thought he was being tough, "They're making you sound like a wife-beater!" Well, there's a reason for that, Roy.

That guy had to know that was a pussy interview....you can't sit around grinning while you ask a man about having to organize a golf tournament after beating his wife up.

[RCharter]

3 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I remember in an interview Marguerite Simpson said that OJ had never abused her.  The line I remember most is her saying that if he had tried she would have hit him upside the head with a frying pan.  I think the interview was with Barbara Walters, sometime during the trial.  

OMG I remember that too!  Just the quote, I couldn't remember if it was an actual sit down interview.  

I'm on the fence, on the one hand, if he did beat her, she was probably too ashamed to admit it.....but on the other hand I feel like there were significant differences between how OJ perceived Marguerite and Nicole.  It would be interesting to hear from that friend of Marguerite (Randy? Rhonda?) to see what she thought....she seemed to be pretty perceptive.

[Ohwell]

Quote

I'm on the fence, on the one hand, if he did beat her, she was probably too ashamed to admit it.....but on the other hand I feel like there were significant differences between how OJ perceived Marguerite and Nicole.  It would be interesting to hear from that friend of Marguerite (Randy? Rhonda?) to see what she thought....she seemed to be pretty perceptive.

Oh I actually do believe that Marguerite would have hit him upside the head.  Remember, she knew him "when" so I just don't think she was in awe of him or afraid of him.  I think it was a different story with Nicole.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Ohwell

[RCharter]

9 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Oh I actually do believe that Marguerite would have hit him upside the head.  Remember, she knew him "when" so I just don't think she was in awe of him or afraid of him.  I think it was a different story with Nicole.

I don't think either version would surprise me.  I absolutely see your point, and I think he may have seen her more as his equal than he did Nicole.  But on the other hand, who knows how long OJ was getting away with OJ like behavior.  I get the impression he was always a legend in his own mind even before anyone knew him....and he may have known how to pick girls that would put up with that sort of thing.

I also had no idea about Honeybaked Ham......I don't eat a lot of pork, but I make an exception for a honeybaked ham....and I had no idea.  I wonder why no one said anything during the trial....I would have thought that at least Denise Brown would have put it out there, so people would avoid that place. 

[attica]

I had the same reaction Sarah cites in her recap about the police interviews that opened the hour. These guys have learned nothing, they understand nothing, and they're so fucking arrogant as to presume their positions are not just valid, but attractive! Amazing footage, and well packaged to let the audience see that so little has changed in 20 years. Yeah, 'chokehold.' That's a proper technique for a police force that imagines itself professional. Not.

I do find myself watching the friends-of-pre-divorce-OJ/Nicole interviews with a bit of a jaundiced eye. I have a hard time believing all the "Oh, I knew all along he was rotten" soundbites. Because that's really not how people are. Wherever there are Darth Vaders, there are Stormtroopers, supporting the evil one and oppressing the opposition. I wonder if that might be part of the point. I mean, when the news broke that Nicole was dead, I remember having a conversation with my office mate at the time. Because I read a lot of true crime (like, a lot), I already knew that, like, 85% of homicides of women were committed by intimate partners, and I said as much: "You know, it's probably OJ." (On the east coast, I didn't know anything about the prior abuse.) She quite strongly demurred. "Not him! He's famous and handsome and charming! NO! She must've been up to drugs or something!" Months later, unsurprisingly, it was common to hear, 'Oh, I knew he was guilty all along!" I rolled my eyes then, I'm rolling them now.

Oh, one other thing: Zoey Tur, the helicopter pilot interviewed, is the parent of NBC journalist (currently assigned to the Trump campaign) Katy Tur. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by attica

[OhIKnow]

13 hours ago, RCharter said:

If OJ was incandescent with rage at Nicole over some perceived or actual affair it tells me that he is that guy that feels as though he should be able to cheat on a woman, but she dare not cheat on him.  Even when separated.

I just think that the person you pick to spend your life with may say something about you....good, bad or otherwise.  So understanding a person's spouse may provide clues to understanding them.  

If Nicole used drugs and partied.....so what.  If anything I think it makes her a more three dimensional person, and she is part of OJ's story.  If Nicole used drugs and partied, it just adds to the idea that OJ was so intent on protecting his image that he never tried to seriously get her help, but instead heaped abuse on her.  

And just on a curious note, what in the world did OJ do to get her to call people and tell them that it was a false report of abuse?  Why did she keep those pictures?  On the one hand she was protecting him, but on the other hand she kept evidence of his abuse.  I just wonder why.

I've read a lot of books about the case and their life together. Nicole used to tell her friends that OJ was going to kill her and get away with it. That he would "OJ" his way out of it. Perhaps she thought that documenting all of the abuse with photos and her journal would help tell the story of the "real" OJ after she was gone - and put a little tarnish on the picture of himself that he painted for the world. 

The fact that Kolkom wouldn't say anything about Nicole and Marcus spoke volumes without him saying a word. 

It was apparently well-known in her circle of friends that she was seeing him and the word was that Marcus was actually at her house at some point in the 24 hours before the murders (when she had told OJ she wouldn't see him anymore).  It wouldn't surprise me at ALL if OJ knew they'd seen each other - and that and Nicole snubbing him at his daughter's dance recital that day (among other things I'm sure) built a serious amount of rage in OJ. I mean, this is a guy that a YEAR later (on the '93 911 call) was still ranting about Nicole and Keith. He doesn't let things go.

[RCharter]

2 minutes ago, OhIKnow said:

I've read a lot of books about the case and their life together. Nicole used to tell her friends that OJ was going to kill her and get away with it. That he would "OJ" his way out of it. Perhaps she thought that documenting all of the abuse with photos and her journal would help tell the story of the "real" OJ after she was gone - and put a little tarnish on the picture of himself that he painted for the world. 

The fact that Kolkom wouldn't say anything about Nicole and Marcus spoke volumes without him saying a word. 

It was apparently well-known in her circle of friends that she was seeing him and the word was that Marcus was actually at her house at some point in the 24 hours before the murders (when she had told OJ she wouldn't see him anymore).  It wouldn't surprise me at ALL if OJ knew they'd seen each other - and that and Nicole snubbing him at his daughter's dance recital that day (among other things I'm sure) built a serious amount of rage in OJ. I mean, this is a guy that a YEAR later (on the '93 911 call) was still ranting about Nicole and Keith. He doesn't let things go.

How very scary for her to have to think that way for over a decade.  You're well read on the subject....how much was Marcus the OJ, Jr?  Was he also mean spirited?  

[OhIKnow]

1 minute ago, RCharter said:

How very scary for her to have to think that way for over a decade.  You're well read on the subject....how much was Marcus the OJ, Jr?  Was he also mean spirited?  

Marcus, I am not sure about. He was (like so many athletes out there) a womanizer, but I don't recall him ever being accused of being mean. 

The hypocrisy on the part of OJ is interesting.  OJ takes Marguerite, who was with his good friend Al Cowlings, and there were no consequences. Flash forward to 1994. His good friend Marcus Allen dates his estranged wife Nicole and OJ becomes unhinged about it. He threatens Nicole. And threatens to tell Marcus' fiancee Kathryn. 

[smiley13]

I recall reading that Marcus Allen hightailed it out of town when news of Nicole's death became public.  That shows me that he was more concerned about keeping himself out of it all than he was about his lover Nicole.  So I don't think Marcus is a prince by any means......

[Ottis]

I noticed almost immediately when this episode went away from OJ, and as I saw the various incidents and outcomes in LA through the eyes of black people there, a whole new layer of understanding snapped into place around NWA's "F the Police' and Public Enemy and Ice Cube songs I have listened to for years. I remember the nationwide rage over "F the police" especially, and it angers me now that people who had no clue what was going on in LA/Compton and what the song was the reaction to thought they could moralize over the lyrics. I opposed those who protested the song then on general artistic principles. Now I think they should be ashamed of themselves.

[RCharter]

17 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I noticed almost immediately when this episode went away from OJ, and as I saw the various incidents and outcomes in LA through the eyes of black people there, a whole new layer of understanding snapped into place around NWA's "F the Police' and Public Enemy and Ice Cube songs I have listened to for years. I remember the nationwide rage over "F the police" especially, and it angers me now that people who had no clue what was going on in LA/Compton and what the song was the reaction to thought they could moralize over the lyrics. I opposed those who protested the song then on general artistic principles. Now I think they should be ashamed of themselves.

People see what they want to see.  Its funny, whenever a video comes out of a police beating you'll always hear certain people who are sure that they see the suspect doing something to provoke the beating, and that they somehow deserved it.  And that when statistics come out about how many more black people are subjected to Terry frisks than other races, they will maintain that its not racist at all. *

* - these statistics are estimates at best, because officers are not required to document Terry stop and frisks.

[poeticlicensed]

It's amazing to think that someone actually brought a video camera to shoot the King beating. Back then video cameras were monsters, I had one and it was so big I had to carry it on my shoulder. What has changed in the conversation today is the fact that everyone has a video camera in their phone. So when police would try to spin the story of the black man with a weapon coming at them, many times the video that comes forth belies their story.