S06.E08: No One

[jjjmoss]

6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Sadly, I'm not even looking forward to next week because big battles don't engage me. The whys and stakes and clever tactics I can get behind, but just heroic shots of people killing other people I don't care about. And I am really not looking forward to Littlefinger's army turning the tide. I liked the Blackwater because there were a lot of character moments interspersed in the action, I didn't like the Battle at Castle Black. Sure, there were moments I enjoyed and some visuals, but overall I wasn't enthralled. That's just my preference, but it doesn't bode well for me enjoying it overly much next week.

Yes, Queen Sansa and Queen Cersei's many scenes in Blackwater are what make it probably still my favorite episode of the show.

Hopefully we get tons of Sansa this episode too. Even if I'm not sure who she could be mainly interacting with anywhere near the level of the Sansa/Cersei dynamic, as Jon would be mostly busy leading an army.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Doesn't the House of Black and White have that little pool with magical healing water? Maybe Arya drank from that after killing the waif and sneaking back in?

They sure seemed to be implying something sinister, or at least important, when Lady Crane got on that step ladder and pulled down some little bottle of something-or-other. I was expecting her to turn out to be the waif based on how suspicious she was acting. For that to turn out to be nothing is shockingly bad directing.

I just rewatched that scene, Lady Crane was totally caring for Arya, it was white liquid in a blueish bottle, I think it was milk of the poppy, the only evil in that room was the waif.

[lmsweb]

11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I liked how Tyrion is getting Grey Worm and Missandandai to lighten up. I know Dany is probably going to be pissed at Tyrion's fuck up, but I hope we'll get a scene with the four of them drinking together post-battle.

I am picturing this like the shwarma scene in the Avengers.

[sunflower]

Re: LF coming in with the Vale to save the Day!  

I can almost deal with it, as long as Sansa tells Jon before it happens!  From scenes, we know they're arguing a little about tactics and Ramsay.  Please.  

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

What makes you think it wasn't a bluff on the show?

Show Jaime continuing to support and love Cersei above all else, everybody else and above all reason. I don't see any reason to question his intent to do anything, no matter how vile for her. There is a huge gulf between books Jaime and show Jaime at this point.

[scout1207]

15 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

If Qyburn and Cersei want to use or even use wildfire (I agree it was the "rumor") whereas Jaime betrayed his original oath precisely in order to prevent such a thing he could finally, finally see her for what she is.

This ^^. I have a feeling that this is what will finally break up Cersei and Jaime. That he risked his honor and reputation to stop the Mad King, and Cersei proceeds to try to blow up KL (possibly losing Tommen as well). If this is what the writers are planning, I think this is a much better character arc than him being disgusted by the fact she slept with Lancel (in the show) and the Kettleblacks (in the books).

Edited June 13, 2016 by scout1207

[sunflower]

Quote

That he risked his honor and reputation to stop the Mad King, and Cersei proceeds to try to blow up KL (possibly losing Tommen as well).

This makes sense considering Jaime made a point of noting Tommen was their last living child before he left.  Even in the show, Jaime appears to love Cersei more than she loves him.  

I don't know if it will be possible for them to have a final scene together unless Jaime kills Cersei at the end of episode 10.  I could see him saying I threw Bran out of a tower window for this?! 

Edited June 13, 2016 by sunflower

[Tesla]

So maybe our next big reveal will be that Varys and Daenrys are the same person, seeing as how they are never allowed to be in the same room together. 

[screamin]

23 minutes ago, sunflower said:

I can almost deal with it, as long as Sansa tells Jon before it happens!  From scenes, we know they're arguing a little about tactics and Ramsay.  Please.  

From what they're saying in the previews, it seems to me Sansa did tell Jon about LF coming, and he's protesting that they're not going to need LF. At least, that's how it sounded to me.

[kittykat]

36 minutes ago, scout1207 said:

This ^^. I have a feeling that this is what will finally break up Cersei and Jaime. That he risked his honor and reputation to stop the Mad King, and Cersei proceeds to try to blow up KL (possibly losing Tommen as well). If this is what the writers are planning, I think this is a much better character arc than him being disgusted by the fact she slept with Lancel (in the show) and the Kettleblacks (in the books).

I agree.  I think the breach is coming but D&D are trying to fake us out with uneven motives and uneven writing that Jaime will wait for Cersei but we clearly saw in that parting shot with Brienne that his feelings are divided.  I always thought him brooding over her infidelities was childish on his part, but then again he is like Tyrion in that respect and Cersei is the only woman he's ever been with.  I think once the threat of the White Walkers reaches his attention (did Brienne mention it to him?  I don't believe so.) he'll feel divided on serving the good of the realm and getting back to Cersei.  And once he hears of crazy Cersei's fire, that will be the breaking point.

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

The Knights of the Vale haven't been involved in any recent armed conflicts.  They were not part of Robb's War for the Northern King, nor any of the Ironborn, Stannis, Winterfell, Bolton, other northern or Riverrun battles.  So they are completely at full strength, whereas Bolton and the other northern lords have  lost at least some men from other battles over the last few years.

So they should get their asses handed to them by Ramsay's battle hardened veterans

See also

• Bronn kicking Ser Vardis Egen's ass
• Ned growing-up in the Vale and being too stupid to take some archers with him to help take out 3 (book) /2 (TV) Kingsguard, including the best swordsmen in the land
• The fact that the Hill tribes, who make the wildlings look like storm troopers, still exist

Quote

Cat: I pity them. 
Renly: Why?
Cat: Because it won't last. Because they are the Knights of summer and winter is coming.

Ramsay's men have been fighting a war, not playing at one.like their useless Lord Robin.

That said, I'm sure truth, justice and the American way will prevail.

P.S - Littlefinger is a metaphorical bastard, not an actual one.

P.P.S.- If the Blackfish took his army and went North, how would he get his army past the Twins?  I don't think Walder Frey would give three shakes or a rat's ankle over any deal between Jaime and the Blackfish.

[Raachel2008]

5 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I agree.  I think the breach is coming but D&D are trying to fake us out with uneven motives and uneven writing that Jaime will wait for Cersei but we clearly saw in that parting shot with Brienne that his feelings are divided.  I always thought him brooding over her infidelities was childish on his part, but then again he is like Tyrion in that respect and Cersei is the only woman he's ever been with.  I think once the threat of the White Walkers reaches his attention (did Brienne mention it to him?  I don't believe so.) he'll feel divided on serving the good of the realm and getting back to Cersei.  And once he hears of crazy Cersei's fire, that will be the breaking point.

Eh, but I don't think his feelings are divided in a romantic sense. There is some attraction there, sure, but I don't believe Jamie loves Brienne the way the loves or loved Cersei. As sick as it is, Cersei is the love of his life. I feel that with Brienne he sees something different than what he had his entire life, maybe the idea of that could have been if he had been born in a 'normal' family, if he had been able to make different choices, if he did make different choices. I dunno, I just don't see that big love story there. I see a lot of ifs, sexual atraction, friendship/comraderie and deep respect, but no truuuu wuuuv.

[Tippi]

I hated how this turned out for the characters, but I really enjoyed the acting of Essie Davis and Clive Russell.  Lady Crane was such a warm presence--I kind of wish it would have turned out that Arya escaped to Westeros with the acting troupe.  And I loved how the Blackfish made Jamie squirm by taunting him with "Kingslayer."

[mascan42]

Re: the Mountain vs that Faith Militant sucker . . . did anybody else's mind jump immediately to:

Spoiler

[Constantinople]

F*ck you Edmure, and the fish you swam in on.

I hereby renounce my allegiance to House Tully (PTV Poll: Choose Your House)

I'm heading North.

Eat fish sh*t and die you Frey-f*cker!

Edited June 13, 2016 by Constantinople
Because it can never me said to often that Edmure blows

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, scout1207 said:

This ^^. I have a feeling that this is what will finally break up Cersei and Jaime. That he risked his honor and reputation to stop the Mad King, and Cersei proceeds to try to blow up KL (possibly losing Tommen as well). If this is what the writers are planning, I think this is a much better character arc than him being disgusted by the fact she slept with Lancel (in the show) and the Kettleblacks (in the books).

It wouldn't make up for all the futzing around they've done with the character up till now, but it would definitely be a strong way to end Jaime's story for the season. I'm pretty much expecting them to keep to the contours of the book storyline, just changing the content of Cersei's letter, e.g.: Our son is dead. Uncle Kevan is dead. But all I need is you. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once.

Basically, a situation in which anyone who can come between Jaime and his sister is gone, but in that moment Jaime realizes he can't be with her: "No. Put this in the fire."

[paigow]

53 minutes ago, mascan42 said:

Re: the Mountain vs that Faith Militant sucker . . . did anybody else's mind jump immediately to:

  Reveal hidden contents

More like Predator 2...The last scene in the subway tunnel.

[Macbeth]

7 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Dany has a lot of nerve coming in looking upset. As if she didn't have her own hiccups ruling Meereen. Last time she left she was under attack so is she really surprised that the situation is still bad and hostile?

  She had that crazed look she has when she talks about burning things down.  Sure Daario told Dany that things had calmed down - but  did she really expect things to be under control? On  the other hand  she just found out her fleet is no more.  So there is that.

   I did like the drinking game.  Tyrion is trying to get Missandei and Grey Worm to relax and behave as if they are the freefolks that they are.  Dany might have freed them, but in they still behave as if they are slaves.

   And Missandei has shown political acumen.  When Dany was feeding the masters to her dragons (on Daario's advice) Dany asked her for her opinion.  Missandei told her that after listening to all of her advisors Dany would occasionally come up with a plan only she could come up with - translation - don't feed anyone else to the dragons.  Dany then decided to marry one of the Masters. 

Arya's magical healing after having major surgery - seriously show??  Whoever came up with that plot should be fired

The Hound was great - "Drop that arrow you bloody girl.  Tougher girls than you have tried to kill me."  Welcome back.

[Macbeth]

Nobody needs to read this twice

Edited June 14, 2016 by Macbeth

[nksarmi]

6 hours ago, J----av said:

Your hate for Ramsay is showing. Tywin isn't overcoming a, what is it 4 to 1, disadvantage with a field disadvantage also. Especially with a group of untrained Wildlings with shitty armor making up most of the army. If Jon holds his own before LF gets there its unrealistic. People complain about "Super Ramsay", but everyone seems to want "Super Jon"

What if Jon just sends some men in through the Winterfell crypts to take Winterfell from the inside and the "battle" is just a distraction? I mean, Jon grew up in Winterfell - he should be able to come up with something Stannis couldn't. That and maybe Mel and/or Bran will work some magic to help him out?

[Unknown poster]

29 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

What if Jon just sends some men in through the Winterfell crypts to take Winterfell from the inside and the "battle" is just a distraction? I mean, Jon grew up in Winterfell - he should be able to come up with something Stannis couldn't. That and maybe Mel and/or Bran will work some magic to help him out?

Can the crypts be accessed from outside the castle? I don't think that they can. In any case, unless he's sending a few hundred men it wouldn't matter. A handful could conceivably take the castle, if Ramsey pulls all the fighting men out into the field, but all it would do is weaken the already badly outnumbered good guys. I think it's pretty clear how the battle will play out. The underdogs will fight hard, fight valiantly, and hang in there longer than they likely would have any right to. And when it looks like they are finally going to be overwhelmed, the Vale arrives. It would be interesting to see it play out another way, but I wouldn't expect it.

[ulkis]

23 hours ago, benteen said:

That being said, I thought the Riverrun stuff was excellent.  Jaime and Edmure absolutely brought it, Jaime and Brienne (Jaime’s one redeeming weakness at this point) still have it and Brienne and Blackfish was really good too.  This was definitely the strongest part of the episode.

I'm so torn. I liked the scenes between Jaime and Brienne, but at the same time, if that is their last scene ever together I'm gonna be like, grrr, why even tease. No, okay, I'm glad they got this scene even if it might be their last one. I would have been annoyed if the series went on and Jaime never acknowledged his friendship with Brienne again.

I'm easy, I'm just glad Arya is okay and is heading back. It helps that I have FFed her story since about season 3.

[benteen]

Quote

These last minute rescues are getting repetitive.  Hopefully they'll avoid that in Meereen, with Dany and the Dragons laying waste to the Harpy fleet, or at least significantly damaging it so that they back off.  Then have Yara and Theon arrive for the mop-up, and to capture some ships that Dany will need for getting to Westeros.

The problem is, you can see Drogon inexplicably flying away in the background after he dropped off Dany.  WTF with that dragon?

So I think it's pretty safe to say that Yara and the Ironborn fleet will show up to defeat the Meereen.  An outside party wins the day just as we have seen twice before and will likely see twice again before the season is over.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

 Arya's magical healing after having major surgery - seriously show??  Whoever came up with that plot should be fired

So what?

No one batted an eye after Martyn Lannister was reincarnated as the already living Tommen "Baratheon" after being killed by Karstark's men.  Even Beric & Jon Snow came back as themselves. 

[Macbeth]

It made me grumpy Constantinople - I expect unrealistic plots in GOT to be backed up by the use of magic. 

[WatchrTina]

I'm with Macbeth.  I can willingly suspend disbelief to accept the Hound recovering from his wounds because the Septon made a point of saying how it was damn near a miracle.  I willingly embrace the existence of White Walkers, Greenseers, Dragons, warging and the dead coming back to life via the Lord of Light's red minions.  But Arya doing f*&king parkour within in days if not hours of being gut stabbed (followed by falling into a river that probably doubles as a sewer) it just too ridiculous for words.

Edited June 14, 2016 by WatchrTina

[TaurusRose]

9 hours ago, J----av said:

And i am going to be extremely pissed if Jon somehow wins without help, despite being severely outnumbered and going against a guy who has shown to be much smarter then he is 

If you're talking about Ramsey, it's debatable as to whether he is smarter than Jon.  Crueler, more sadistic, for sure; but that has nothing to do with intelligence.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

So I think it's pretty safe to say that Yara and the Ironborn fleet will show up to defeat the Meereen. 

Her Ironborn ships do not appear to have catapults.  Cannons / gunpowder do not exist in this reality. What are they going to do? Jack Sparrow boarding parties? And if they get that close to the Slaver fleet, Drogon will incinerate them with "friendly fire".

[ulkis]

On 6/12/2016 at 10:21 PM, benteen said:

Jaime’s portrayal has been consistent on the show but that doesn’t mean it’s been good.  I’ve never understood D&D’s dislike of the Jaime character while they have a love affair with the Cersei character.  It’s caused them to utterly botch one of the best character arcs in the books.  But it isn’t a surprise since they’ve botched the Stannis character and the North Remembers.  They would have botched the Theon character arc as well if it wasn’t for Alfie Allen’s performance.

This is just me going on instinct and I could be full of shit, but I feel it's less that they hate Jaime and more that they didn't really feel it was fair he evolved and she didn't in the books. I feel if Cercei had evolved along with Jaime, then the show writers would have been more inclined to reflect more of book Jaime.

But I could be just pulling it out of thin air, like I said.

[Pogojoco]

Though there were a lot of great individual scenes, Edmure/Jamie- (except the Cersei love stuff- shut up, you're boring), The Hound stuff, a lot of the chase through Braavos.

But overall, this didn't go anywhere. A lot of wheel spinning.  I did like the idea of the Hound/Brotherhood heading North. I think everyone and their dragons should shut up and head North. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Pogojoco

[Paws]

I am still slowly making peace with the fact that Lady Stoneheart won't be arriving. But why oh why did they spend soooo much time talking about Catelyn if we won't be seeing her soon? 

[Pogojoco]

And I would argue that Ramsey isn't actually that smart. He's just winning because the showrunners like him as a villainous placeholder while the White Walkers get cooking. I've not seen any strategy, other than killing his father so he can do what he wants and messing with Theon. 

He treated Sansa terribly so she ran away. That's dumb. This whole show down with Jon Snow is because Small Jon Umber dropped Rickon in his lap. Ramsey didn't look for allies, they just showed up. And honestly, the Karstark seems like an idiot and Small Jon didn't bend a knee.  Trusting Small Jon Umber is probably dumb- I'm still wondering if it's going to come back and bite him- it's just too significant not pledging allegiance. That character made too much of an impression. 

If Ramsey didn't write a letter to Jon, would Jon be trying to take Winterfell back? Jon had pretty much given up Winterfell to him until the letter came and Sansa pushed him. Writing the letter- pretty dumb. 

Honestly, I really like Iwan Rheon in the part but if this character doesn't bite it spectacularly by the end of the season, I'm going to be annoyed. 

[atua]

8 minutes ago, Paws said:

I am still slowly making peace with the fact that Lady Stoneheart won't be arriving. But why oh why did they spend soooo much time talking about Catelyn if we won't be seeing her soon? 

I think that scene was really foreshadowing the Jamie/Cersei split. He kept going on and on about how the love Cat/Cersei had for their children were their main/only redeeming feature. So what's Jamie going to think when Cersei's so far gone that she not only burns Kings Landing with wildfire (the prevention of which was one of the things Jamie's most proud of), but kills her last child?

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Unknown poster said:

Can the crypts be accessed from outside the castle? I don't think that they can. In any case, unless he's sending a few hundred men it wouldn't matter. A handful could conceivably take the castle, if Ramsey pulls all the fighting men out into the field, but all it would do is weaken the already badly outnumbered good guys. I think it's pretty clear how the battle will play out. The underdogs will fight hard, fight valiantly, and hang in there longer than they likely would have any right to. And when it looks like they are finally going to be overwhelmed, the Vale arrives. It would be interesting to see it play out another way, but I wouldn't expect it.

In book I think so; but not sure. I think they lead to the Godswoods. 

Bran before his push told us as he explored of hidden walls in Winterfell's castle and how you can reach the higher floors from a tree (I think).

[paigow]

4 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

If Ramsey didn't write a letter to Jon, would Jon be trying to take Winterfell back? Jon had pretty much given up Winterfell to him until the letter came and Sansa pushed him. Writing the letter- pretty dumb. 

Ramsey wanted to capture Castle Black and kill Jon...Roose warned him that would be unwise because the other houses would see that as murder and unstable behaviour. So by making Jon attack Winterfell, Ramsey has the self-defence card. Pretty smart.

[Ambrosefolly]

Here is my thing about the North Remembers storyline being scrapped and allowing an unstable asshat not only be in charge, but now largely unchecked: The Northerns weren't just mad that the Boltons and Freys broke the Guest Right and killed the King they pledge too; they were pissed that Boltons and Freys killed or imprisoned members of their families, along with Robb and Cat, at the Red Wedding. So like the son, of the Lord, Lady and brother that Ramsey killed, they wanted blood for their blood. That is why I hate "lets make Jon and Sansa underdogs and the North not giving a shit", because the Boltons and Freys hurt a lot of other families.

I too hate Blackfish being killed off and Edmure being a bigger dolt than in the books. Either way, he would have lost the castle, but him joining Sansa and Jon, he might have a chance to return and reclaim the castle, especially if Sansa was in charge of the North. And while GRRM and D&D are pretty obsessed with presenting grrl!power on steroids, would it kill them to have the men who aren't old men, evil or a combo of both, have a strategic thought in their heads? Can't  Edmure rationally talk Blackfish into temporarily letting go of Riverrrun with the promise of sticking it to the Freys later on. We have a 10 year old talking like she is channeling Olenna Tyrell, but hey, Edmure can't come up with a plan to win Riverrun in the future? And hey Blackfish, Brienne might be better at protecting Sansa, but you can't hurt being their either. 

[magdalene]

7 hours ago, kittykat said:

I agree.  I think the breach is coming but D&D are trying to fake us out with uneven motives and uneven writing that Jaime will wait for Cersei but we clearly saw in that parting shot with Brienne that his feelings are divided.  I always thought him brooding over her infidelities was childish on his part, but then again he is like Tyrion in that respect and Cersei is the only woman he's ever been with.  I think once the threat of the White Walkers reaches his attention (did Brienne mention it to him?  I don't believe so.) he'll feel divided on serving the good of the realm and getting back to Cersei.  And once he hears of crazy Cersei's fire, that will be the breaking point.

Or it could well be that Jaime's estrangement in the books from Cersei won't stick and that he will end up back with her, just in time to die with her.  I know GRRM has told the show runners the end game for all the major characters - they may know that all of Jaime's character development and "redemption" in the books is just a temporary detour to his ultimate fate. That being true would explain the botching of the character - they are just "stream lining" and cutting out the temporary detour. 

I hope I am wrong about this but I have had a sinking feeling for a while now that this is the real reason show Jaime is so different from the book version.

[ElizaD]

8 hours ago, scout1207 said:

This ^^. I have a feeling that this is what will finally break up Cersei and Jaime. That he risked his honor and reputation to stop the Mad King, and Cersei proceeds to try to blow up KL (possibly losing Tommen as well). If this is what the writers are planning, I think this is a much better character arc than him being disgusted by the fact she slept with Lancel (in the show) and the Kettleblacks (in the books).

Even though the ending will be the same (I believe Jaime will kill Cersei), from a character POV there's a big difference between Jaime turning away from Cersei because he's trying to become a better man and Jaime turning away only because she has become a full-blown mass murderer who burned thousands if not tens of thousands of people; the first is about Jaime's growth as a person independent of Cersei's moral state, the second takes Cersei so over the top that having a problem with it is not a sign of developing honor and conscience, it's the bare minimum expected of anyone who's not a psychopath. Book Jaime has stumbled, and I'm nowhere near as impressed by his change as many others are, but it can't all be reduced to bitterness over Lancel and the Kettleblacks. He refused sex with Cersei even before he freed Tyrion and heard about her affairs, because for the first time he was starting to feel that he needed to honor his oaths and was not happy with the man he felt himself to be; on the show, however, he ended up pushing the White Book away for reconciliation sex, making Cersei still his #1. So I disagree about the show having a better character arc because it's not actually an arc for Jaime: it's stagnation until he does a 180 turn in response to Cersei's act of supervillainy, an external rather than an internal motivation that's about an act committed by another character and not Jaime himself.

[Gertrude]

I was going to reply about the Jaime/Cersei deal but Eliza pretty much said it for me. Even if the ending is the same (Jaime killing Cersei) the journey is far different. This is a long time theory for me btw, so I'm excited to see how this plays out.

Dang it, as I'm trying to put into words the difference it makes to me, I find it hard. I guess it comes down to Jaime's reaction when/if this goes down. If the only thing that makes Jaime take her down is the sudden shock of a train barreling down the tracks, that dulls the emotional impact. Instead, imagine he's been seeing signs of an impending train wreck and knows it's inevitable at some point but hopes he can avert it. When he realizes he can't, he takes responsibility on himself and does what's necessary. Which is essentially what Eliza already said - it's him reacting to Cersei instead of acting on his own account.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Gertrude

[WindyNights]

Not happy that they removed Edmure's only cool moment in the books from the show 

[feverfew]

8 hours ago, ElizaD said:

 Book Jaime has stumbled, and I'm nowhere near as impressed by his change as many others are, but it can't all be reduced to bitterness over Lancel and the Kettleblacks. He refused sex with Cersei even before he freed Tyrion and heard about her affairs, because for the first time he was starting to feel that he needed to honor his oaths and was not happy with the man he felt himself to be; on the show, however, he ended up pushing the White Book away for reconciliation sex, making Cersei still his #1. So I disagree about the show having a better character arc because it's not actually an arc for Jaime: it's stagnation until he does a 180 turn in response to Cersei's act of supervillainy, an external rather than an internal motivation that's about an act committed by another character and not Jaime himself.

With the cravat that I haven't read Dance more than once, my problem with book!Jaime is that I feel you have to really read between the lines to get to that interpretation of Jaime's rejection of Cersei. What stayed with me was the sexual jealousy and his worry over his lack of knightly achievements, not a longing to be a better man in and of itself. And Martin's tendency to make characters repeat the same lines definitely didn't help -  "...and Moonboy for all I know" is really all I took away from Jaime's Riverland arc. Of course, it might just mean that I skimmed too much.

I would absolutely love a redemption arc for Jaime - Cersei got one, sort of, after all - but I honestly don't see much difference in the two arcs as proposed: both are external (Cersei's crazy vs. her infidelities) except for the fact that the latter manifest itself more as unintended sexual discrimination from Martin than anything else. For that alone I'm thankful.D&D skipped it.

Edited June 14, 2016 by feverfew
fat fingers

[Oscirus]

Quote

. I always say that out of all the characters that have been killed, losing Tywin hurt the show the most. And as much as no one wants to admit it, losing Joffrey was probably the second biggest loss.

Joffrey hasn't even been memorable since season 2 when he still had Sansa to torture. After they he pretty much threw temper tantrums  until his death episode. I guess there was the wedding episode too. But that was it.  In terms of GOT big losses, he doesn't even crack the top ten. And Tywin was about to lose Tyrion and  the QOT before his death. In other words, he would've had nobody to bounce off of likely making his character as boring as others in similar predictaments.

Quote

What makes you think it wasn't a bluff on the show?

Because Jamie recently got done scolding the Freys on using bluffs.

 

So this was Arya's plan:

Step 1: Change your mind in the middle of an assignment. Knowing that this means your almost certain death.

Step 2: Warn your intended target that she's a target.  Just in case this assassin guild didn't have enough reasons to want you dead.

Step 3: Knowing that assassins are after you, walk around town and make sure to do it as conspicuously as possible.

Step 4: Take a moment to admire the sights. Whats the worst that can happen?

Step 5: Ignore that old lady whose face has a striking resemblance to the mask you just wore.

Step 6: Get stabbed up, run away and rely on the kindness of the lady you tried to kill.

Step 7: Knowing that you're in trouble, allow yourself time for a nice long drugged nap.

Step 8 Despite being drugged and woozy lead your assassin on a chase back to your hideout

step 9: Profit!

[Haleth]

4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I was going to reply about the Jaime/Cersei deal but Eliza pretty much said it for me. Even if the ending is the same (Jaime killing Cersei) the journey is far different. This is a long time theory for me btw, so I'm excited to see how this plays out.

Dang it, as I'm trying to put into words the difference it makes to me, I find it hard. I guess it comes down to Jaime's reaction when/if this goes down. If the only thing that makes Jaime take her down is the sudden shock of a train barreling down the tracks, that dulls the emotional impact. Instead, imagine he's been seeing signs of an impending train wreck and knows it's inevitable at some point but hopes he can avert it. When he realizes he can't, he takes responsibility on himself and does what's necessary. Which is essentially what Eliza already said - it's him reacting to Cersei instead of acting on his own account.

Just as he did with the Mad King.  Deja vu all over again.

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Even though the ending will be the same (I believe Jaime will kill Cersei), from a character POV there's a big difference between Jaime turning away from Cersei because he's trying to become a better man and Jaime turning away only because she has become a full-blown mass murderer who burned thousands if not tens of thousands of people; the first is about Jaime's growth as a person independent of Cersei's moral state, the second takes Cersei so over the top that having a problem with it is not a sign of developing honor and conscience, it's the bare minimum expected of anyone who's not a psychopath.

For me, Jaime wanting to become a better man and being disgusted by Cersei's acts aren't mutually exclusive; if only because being disgusted by Cersei's acts already makes him a better man. Jaime was (and still is, in the eyes of some) a psychopath who threw Bran by the window, abiding by Cersei's will of murdering a child without batting an eyelash. He saw only through her eyes then, I don't think it's still the case and he already came a long way when it comes to developping a conscience. Their relationship is well portrayed imo as toxic for him. Often (if not always) when he does the right thing, it's against her will and after thinking by himself (sending Brienne to save Sansa, freeing Tyrion); moreover in his interactions with Brienne and with the Blackfish, you see that he wants to and tries to be honorable.

Since there are no POVs on the show, his love for Cersei (and yes it annoys me that he still loves her, although I still think that he protests too much lately) might be employed as the concrete expression of what keeps him prisoner of the man he used to be. The problem with Jaime imo is that he thinks he can't succeed because of all his failures/his good actions backfiring (he freed Tyrion = Tyrion killed his dad). The use of wildfire would be imo first and foremost a moral shock for him, not because it's over the top but because it resonates with his biggest personal trauma. Such a shock could allow him to overcome his fear of failure and free himself, choosing definitely the path of honor. There would be full circle here for Jaime as a character (honor lost and found because of wildfire). In parallel, it would open his eyes on Cersei and even more on the fact that they are now morally incompatible, and giving up on her would illustrate that he won't go back to his old patterns/demons.

Of course, as others said, it could also be that no redemption is in sight. But I think that a Lannister will fight the WW alongside the Starks, and I don't think that Tyrion will be on the battlefield so I still have hope for Jaime.

3 hours ago, feverfew said:

With the cravat that I haven't read Dance more than once, my problem with book!Jaime is that I feel you have to really read between the lines to get to that interpretation of Jaime's rejection of Cersei. What stayed with me was the sexual jealousy and his worry over his lack of knightly achievements, not a longing to be a better man in at of itself. And Martin's tendency to make characters repeat the same lines definitely didn't help -  "...and Moonboy for all I know" is really all I took away from Jaime's Riverland arc.

For me, indeed, clearly turning his back on Cersei because of the pain she caused to other people (including their son) with no ego or jealousy involved at any level would be a very good point in favor of Jaime's redemption.

[Misplaced]

I have to admit, this week's Arya Miracle was the first time I have been actively, wholly enraged at this show. I wanted to believe, I still want to believe, that Arya's asinine wandering around sightseeing in Braavos and tossing around pots of money (?? WHERE did it come from?) was a deliberate ploy to draw out the Waif and to "let" the Waif stab her, because (I wanted to believe) she had the Braavosi version of plastic bags of pig's blood strapped all over herself together with thick padding, and then to lure the Waif back to the Cellar of Doom and go all Needle-y on her.  See?  That's not a difficult plot development, and it's not even difficult (which I also want to believe) that Arya got hurt worse than she thought she would and had to crawl around to Lady Crane etc etc etc.  Because hurt-worse-than-she-thought-she-would-be Arya might still be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound and stair-ski through the fallen fruit.  BUT.  Show, show, show, if that is what you were trying to do, you failed miserably, and Arya, gut-stabbed Arya, bleeding all over the damn city Arya, was - what?  Magicked back from the near-dead by some unknown Faceless Man magic inherent in the Faceless Man water she drank when she got her sight back? (See? I even came up with a SECOND coherent explanation without even trying!)  Arrrggghhh.  I cannot understand why the writing here was so ludicrously awful.  Just bad.  BAD.  And so pointless!  Arya's not stupid, Show, but you had to make her stupid to let this equally stupid long drawn-out plot unspin itself.  Ugh.   

Thank heavens she's on her way back to Westeros though.  Finally!

I'm also starting to wonder if Game of Thrones hysterical exhaustion isn't setting in.  There have been so many fan theories for so many years about what's going to happen and where and how and to whom -- every time one of those theories is proven or dis-proven, I feel like I've just run Arya's Braavosi marathon.  How long have we waited for Jon to reanimate?  (Five years, I know.)   How long have we waited for the Hound? How long have we waited for Bran to turn into a tree?  Or for Benjen?  You get me.  

In the same vein, I think it's astoundingly silly to break this show into two more years of 7 episodes followed by 6 episodes. The showrunners haven't been able to avoid spoilers on a pretty big scale up to now -- how on earth do they think they're going to keep the final endgame a secret if 13 episodes are stretched over two years?   Not really on topic I know, but the 13-episode question was raised upthread.  (Also, the extended-last-season just irritates me now, just like splitting the last book of any trilogy into two films.) 

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 7:25 AM, Haleth said:

I KNEW IT last week when everyone was looking for trickery when Arya was stabbed, I KNEW the writers were playing it straight and we'd have to hand wave that she not only survived her wound but would be able to leap and run.  No switched identities, just poor writing.  (And RIP, Lady Crane.)  Arya's arc in Braavos wasn't pointless,  (No pun intended.)  She got the training she needed to go back to Westeros and go all Stoneheart on her enemies.

It bothers me because I think it was a cheap fake out of a cliff hanger.  Will Arya die???  Of course not.  There's no way she could survive that injury, and no explanation for how she did.  A much milder injury would have sufficed, and had as much impact, IMO.  It sort of reminds me of Sansa and Theon's leap from the top of Winterfell.  I hand wave it because I want these characters to survive, but it's a bit irritating when the trick is repeated.

22 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Well considering that his story with Sansa isn't finished yet or for that matter Arya it could be the way the writers reintro him to their story lines.

He protected both girls, he knows of LF betrayl, Brienne may also be there and they all could be there for

  Hide contents

Brans dream of a giant full of black blood.

Could you please remind me how the Hound knows about LF's betrayal?

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

It bothers me because I think it was a cheap fake out of a cliff hanger.  Will Arya die???  Of course not.  There's no way she could survive that injury, and no explanation for how she did.  A much milder injury would have sufficed, and had as much impact, IMO.  It sort of reminds me of Sansa and Theon's leap from the top of Winterfell.  I hand wave it because I want these characters to survive, but it's a bit irritating when the trick is repeated.

Could you please remind me how the Hound knows about LF's betrayal?

HE WAS THERE when LF held the dagger to Neds throat.

He was also part of Cersei's circle.

[Misplaced]

17 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

The Blackfish could have jumped in the boat with Pod and Brienne. He knew it was over and that he was about to die trying to keep Riverrun. He chose to die instead of going to help his niece. He admitted that he knew that Sansa's letter was genuine. His experience absolutely would have made him valuable to Jon and Sansa's side IMO.

I thought about that very thing -- people in this series are infuriating in their myopia -- but then I thought, if the Blackfish had been in the boat with Brienne and Pod, I doubt Jaime would have let them go.  Yes?  It would have been a better scene / made more sense if the Blackfish had said forcefully "I will buy you time by sacrificing myself" rather than "well, gee, I haven't been in a sword fight in a while and that'll be a good way to go out, kthanxbye." 

[WebosFritos]

So Arya really was just wandering the streets out in the open after having decided to leave an organization of assassins. I really shouldn't have my hopes up for clever writing but the actors, who manage to make the dialogue sound better than it is, always make me hope for more. After this sad and disappointing episode, I'm not looking forward to next week's battle.

1 hour ago, Misplaced said:

I thought about that very thing -- people in this series are infuriating in their myopia -- but then I thought, if the Blackfish had been in the boat with Brienne and Pod, I doubt Jaime would have let them go.  Yes?  It would have been a better scene / made more sense if the Blackfish had said forcefully "I will buy you time by sacrificing myself" rather than "well, gee, I haven't been in a sword fight in a while and that'll be a good way to go out, kthanxbye." 

Now that would have made for a great conflict for Jaime. Would he have let them go, after Brienne had made him promise that he would let the Blackfish and the Tully army ride North, or would he have stopped them? The writers missed a good opportunity there and instead decided that the Blackfish would rather go on a suicide mission after his own men and nephew betrayed him.

I can't believe they had the Blackfish say that he had "run away at the Red Wedding". That was a terrible line.

[Knuckles]

2 hours ago, Misplaced said:

Arya's asinine wandering around sightseeing in Braavos and tossing around pots of money

This. It was terrible writing. No explanation of where the money came from, no explanation of her sudden, swaggering confidence. All of this put at odds her declaration later to Jaquen that she is not no one, "I am Arya Stark". There was no dramatic payoff since she had already made this decision.

And, just as Lady Crane became interesting, she was summarily killed off...whatever potion she was reaching for left unexplained.

Arya's wounds would have left her unable to walk, let alone swim, walk, enter a building and hide herself. She would have long-since bled out. Whatever magical arts Lady Crane may have possessed to render Arya fighting fit were left hanging..or Arya has super Stark genetics.

If we are to believe in magical healing, then finish the thought...if Arya is immune to human frailties as a Stark, then finish the thought.The Bravos arc was disappointing, but this was a serious hash of an ending.