S06.E06: Blood Of My Blood

[MadMouse]

It's easy to dismiss Viserys mental problems on the inbreeding but people forget he was old enough to remember his family before the Rebellion and what happened to them. He was eight when it ended so he has memories of his brother, father, mother, niece and nephew all who were killed. And we know the stories of what happened to them have spread far and wide. The guy had every right to be angry and want blood. If you root for Arya, Jon or any of the Starks to reclaim their home and to get some revenge then you should be on Viserys side too.

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

Assuming that R+L=J (and I prefer to!), he may not be a bastard.  Targaryens had been known to practice polygamy from time to time, so it's possible that Rhaegar (very, very) quietly married Lyanna.  If that's the case, then, as the heir of the oldest of the Targaryen offspring, he would also be the heir to the Iron Throne, possibly the most uncomfortable throne in the history of the universe.

It's possible that Rhaegar married Lyanna, but the question is who could prove that? Rhaegar's dead, Lyanna's dead, all of Aerys' Kingsguard is dead. I suppose Howland Reed could say something about what Ned/Lyanna told him, but that's still not the same as actually witnessing the marriage, as a Northern bannerman it could easily be seen as a ploy by him to get a Stark (or worse Stark Bastard) on the Iron Throne. I also suppose Bran could have a vision, but again, who's going to take that seriously? Even if anyone actually believed Bran has visions he has a pretty significant Jon Snow bias.

The reason for a public wedding is to leave no doubt that they said the words, and consummated the marriage afterward. If nobody can prove it did happen, it didn't happen, and he's still a bastard.

I suppose they could just invent a character "The Septon Who Married Them" or something, but that seems a little too neat and clean doesn't it?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[bunnyblue]

4 hours ago, Bizabra said:

You can tell there is a new costumer designer at work. I thought that these costumes were very off-the-rack home sewn Simplicity "historical" patterns. Ugh.

Yeah, I wasn't feeling the Tarly women's dresses. They reminded me of American Civil War era southern dresses except without the hoop under the skirt. I know the Tarlys are not a rich as the Tyrells, but I thought their dresses would at least be similar in style to Margaery's dresses when she first arrived in KL. Yet these were nothing like Marg's. 

[Umbelina]

I was kind of surprised to read that so many didn't like this episode.  It was confusing to me, and then I realized why that is.

I want it over, an ending, much more than I care about what happens as they get there.  This episode, more than any other has moved several stories far ahead of the books, so I loved it! 

Unlike many, I always felt that Sam would be incredibly valuable to whatever end games take place, I loved his story, especially once he left Castle Black.  I'm shocked and thrilled that he took the sword, I thought his value would play out more with what he learns from Old Town histories, characters, and books.

Arya has moved on!  Again, that's just huge, and I like the reason, because I enjoyed the actors and their play.  Her brother Bran has as well, I was tired of watching him rot into becoming a tree.

Jamie is finally off to the Riverlands so at least we may get back to book Jamie instead of this emasculated, manipulated, devoted puppy of the "star~!!" Cersei.  Although, truthfully, I never cared that much about the Riverlands either, but since everyone seems to be about to converge there?  yay.  Reunion! 

I love the time travel now, blink and Theon is on the Iron Islands, blink and Littlefinger is in Mole Town, blink and Sansa's at the Wall, I hope it continues, I'm frankly, tired of wasting time.  Speaking of that?  Dani's on the move and hopefully soon we will never hear of Meereen again. 

I don't hate the High Septon all that much.  /unpopular I know  We have dozens of religions now, he's no worse or better than the others, and certainly not worse than the aristocracy of Westeros.

I don't now, and I never have, and I certainly never shall care about the Vikings/Pirates/Iron Islands.  I wish they'd have a DOOM of their own and disappear beneath the sea. 

So, it comes down to, for me, moving things along, and this episode did that.  Along with my secret fondness for Sam, I'm hoping for the reappearance resolution of one other favorite character from the books, The Hound, and I hope he slays his asshole former brother.  That's speculation not spoilers, or rather it's a strong wish, frankly it seems much more likely he'll die in fire, since he pushed his brother into fire as a child, but still, I do miss the Hound.

As for Dani, good or evil?  Probably, in the long run, evil, hell, maybe she always has been, but I don't think so because even though the books were tedious about her learning curve, I felt that was realistic, and many of her motivations were not self-serving, they did show a real concern for others.  So perhaps she's like most people, a mix of both.

[Raachel2008]

3 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

It's easy to dismiss Viserys mental problems on the inbreeding but people forget he was old enough to remember his family before the Rebellion and what happened to them. He was eight when it ended so he has memories of his brother, father, mother, niece and nephew all who were killed. And we know the stories of what happened to them have spread far and wide. The guy had every right to be angry and want blood. If you root for Arya, Jon or any of the Starks to reclaim their home and to get some revenge then you should be on Viserys side too.

Being angry and wanting blood are very different from being a dick. We have many characters who endure a lot of shit in their lives, yet they are not evil/bad. Viserys was and I think it was pretty clear.

[GrailKing]

35 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Yeah, I wasn't feeling the Tarly women's dresses. They reminded me of American Civil War era southern dresses except without the hoop under the skirt. I know the Tarlys are not a rich as the Tyrells, but I thought their dresses would at least be similar in style to Margaery's dresses when she first arrived in KL. Yet these were nothing like Marg's. 

The original designer is coming back for season 7/8, I had a link to the Guggenheim museum they do design in conjunction with AGOT series, but it looks like the link and thread on fashion is moved or taken down. 

[FormerMod-a1]

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

The original designer is coming back for season 7/8, I had a link to the Guggenheim museum they do design in conjunction with AGOT series, but it looks like the link and thread on fashion is moved or taken down. 

You mean this one?  It's just on Page 3 of the forum - not moved or taken down.

[gwhh]

I guess Mrs. junior kill happy assassin will wither get killed by Aryan or become her ally! 

I do hope Sam get to give dear old dad his sword back.  Right through his black as coal soulless heart! 

Could anyone be a bigger tool than Sam dad??

Nothing better for a storyline than a brother and sister getting hot for each other!  I think they are at one point the most sane and at another point the most insane two characters on this show. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by gwhh

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Lemuria said:

There was a post that suggested that GRRM was not interested in his story anymore, and provided a history of the writing of the books that was very interesting (the poster is clearly much more knowledgeable about GRRM and the books than I am).  In addition to everything in that post, I think there's another factor.  It seems to me that GRRM, like Robert Jordan, fell more in love with his world than with his story.  No detail was too small to wax rhapsodic about, no spot on the map too unimportant to the main story line--you know, the Great Enemy waking up?  Winter coming?--or too uninteresting to name and give a history to and to populate with characters the readers would be expected to follow.  It ended up with a lot marking time from a story perspective.

Tolkien turns out to be a better story teller, IMO, simply because he never forgot that the story was everything.  There were 14 years of bones built into the LOTR and the world of Middle Earth but he never gave you more than a glimpse of them, enough to whet the appetite but not to get in the way of the narrative, which kept driving forward.  If you wanted more, there was the Appendix at the end of "The Return of the King," and all the secondary books that have come out, and the Atlas and so on.  But if what you were interested in was the story and the characters that drove that story, then the primary three books gave you what you wanted.  JMO.  MV, of course.

Totally agree with this.  There were times when I felt mind numbing disinterest when reading pages and pages of stuff I didn't care about. Finally, I gave up 180 pages into 'A Feast for Crows.'  I just couldn't any longer.  Up to that point I thought Tolkien was the leader in unnecessary descriptions and side trips, but GRRM has beaten him hands down.  

[VCRTracking]

I definitely think Margaery is playing the long con on the High Sparrow.

My reaction on seeing Sam's family's huge house was "Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!"

As Alan Sepinwall noted it's "Chekhov's sword" over the mantleplace.

Nice to see the return of the Stark kids' uncles. Benjen being significantly more badass than Edmure.

Comforting to hear the Freys are being laughed at but I still want Lady Stoneheart to appear and kick their asses.

Nikolaj riding up the steps on the horse was cool.

Arya giggling at fake Joffrey's death was great.

I hope we get an epic beatdown by Arya on the Waif to make these past few weeks of this storyline worth it.

I didn't before but I ship Meera and Bran now.

So Dany needs 1000 ships and Theon and Yara's uncle is building that many to woo her? Never thought the Mereen and Ironborn plotlines would connect.

[Constantinople]

Given the distance between Horn Hill and Castle Black it seemed a little odd that Randyll Tarly was the first Southerner to give three shakes of a rat's ankle about fighting the wildlings for generations.

[Harald Hardrada]

8 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

But do the Iron Islands have a 1000 ships anymore? I thought they had to rebuild since Yara and Theon's flight diminished their fleet. At this point I'd say the most efficient means to get all of Daenery's troops to Westeros is by Dragon-DHL. This might also solve the pesky problem of the Dothraki barfing their guts out once they're on a ship.

True. Yara & Theon took half of the ships while Victarion the anti-Euron commanded the other half of the fleet so it's probably going to take some time for Euron to rebuild his own ships but I doubt it. Some of the Ironborn are going to start a rebellion against that psycho king anyway. The Iron Islands are in turmoil now just like the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps she can try to visit those whalers in Ibben? they wouldn't be so friendly either.

[Umbelina]

Oh, and that's the other thing about the damn pirates.  I don't care if they live on treeless islands or how long it would take them (decades no doubt) to build a fleet of 1000 ships.  If 1000 ships are to be?  I'd rather they just show up than watch GRRM forge every nail, and spend chapters felling trees, while wiping out villages to steal saws or enslave the much trod upon peasants to carry the logs to ships.  I don't need to read about each rudder being smoothed, or sail being sewn, let alone mixing the special paint or the urchins braiding the ropes.

No thanks.

Ships appear!  Fine with me, get this show on the road.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, and that's the other thing about the damn pirates.  I don't care if they live on treeless islands or how long it would take them (decades no doubt) to build a fleet of 1000 ships.  If 1000 ships are to be?  I'd rather they just show up than watch GRRM forge every nail, and spend chapters felling trees, while wiping out villages to steal saws or enslave the much trod upon peasants to carry the logs to ships.  I don't need to read about each rudder being smoothed, or sail being sewn, let alone mixing the special paint or the urchins braiding the ropes.

No thanks.

Ships appear!  Fine with me, get this show on the road.

Yea pretty much. Let's end  slavery across the sea, get dany all the wooden horses she needs, kill off the faceless men and shrink this world down to westeros.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Oscirus

[Maximum Taco]

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Given the distance between Horn Hill and Castle Black it seemed a little odd that Randyll Tarly was the first Southerner to give three shakes of a rat's ankle about fighting the wildlings for generations.

I was thinking the same thing.

It's like "Dude, have you even ever seen a wildling? Why do you care so much?"

But to be fair they did say they hosted the Umbers at one point, and the Umbers definitely would hate wildlings. Maybe it's a case of "Oh that really cool guy Greatjon Umber hates wildlings, they must be jerks."

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

The guy had every right to be angry and want blood. If you root for Arya, Jon or any of the Starks to reclaim their home and to get some revenge then you should be on Viserys side too.

Just no. He told Dany he'd let Drogo, his whole khalassar and their horses fuck her if it would get him the throne, so no. That is not a guy you root for.

[kittykat]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I was kind of surprised to read that so many didn't like this episode.  It was confusing to me, and then I realized why that is.

I want it over, an ending, much more than I care about what happens as they get there.  This episode, more than any other has moved several stories far ahead of the books, so I loved it! 

Unlike many, I always felt that Sam would be incredibly valuable to whatever end games take place, I loved his story, especially once he left Castle Black.  I'm shocked and thrilled that he took the sword, I thought his value would play out more with what he learns from Old Town histories, characters, and books.

Arya has moved on!  Again, that's just huge, and I like the reason, because I enjoyed the actors and their play.  Her brother Bran has as well, I was tired of watching him rot into becoming a tree.

Jamie is finally off to the Riverlands so at least we may get back to book Jamie instead of this emasculated, manipulated, devoted puppy of the "star~!!" Cersei.  Although, truthfully, I never cared that much about the Riverlands either, but since everyone seems to be about to converge there?  yay.  Reunion! 

I love the time travel now, blink and Theon is on the Iron Islands, blink and Littlefinger is in Mole Town, blink and Sansa's at the Wall, I hope it continues, I'm frankly, tired of wasting time.  Speaking of that?  Dani's on the move and hopefully soon we will never hear of Meereen again. 

I don't hate the High Septon all that much.  /unpopular I know  We have dozens of religions now, he's no worse or better than the others, and certainly not worse than the aristocracy of Westeros.

I don't now, and I never have, and I certainly never shall care about the Vikings/Pirates/Iron Islands.  I wish they'd have a DOOM of their own and disappear beneath the sea. 

So, it comes down to, for me, moving things along, and this episode did that.  Along with my secret fondness for Sam, I'm hoping for the reappearance resolution of one other favorite character from the books, The Hound, and I hope he slays his asshole former brother.  That's speculation not spoilers, or rather it's a strong wish, frankly it seems much more likely he'll die in fire, since he pushed his brother into fire as a child, but still, I do miss the Hound.

As for Dani, good or evil?  Probably, in the long run, evil, hell, maybe she always has been, but I don't think so because even though the books were tedious about her learning curve, I felt that was realistic, and many of her motivations were not self-serving, they did show a real concern for others.  So perhaps she's like most people, a mix of both.

I normally don't quote full posts like this but this is EXACTLY how I feel on most points.  In fact Mr. kittykat and I went into some discussion about how we don't care about the Iron Islands.  Yara and Theon we don't mind but if they were never to show the damn pirates again that would be great.

I haven't been too nitpicky about the time travel as well.  The travelogues in the books are tedious.  I'd rather move plots along than have Littlefinger be stuck on the King's road for seven episodes.  I can see Arya being back in Westeros by seasons end or even E8.  After all the Narrow Sea is...narrow.  especially if they sail into Salt pans.

I'm enjoying this season more than most I think and I'm a book reader.  I'm enjoying watching the Starks get their shit together and the Lannisters fall apart.  I think having two Ramseyless eps have helped.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, watch GRRM fuck with us all big time and change the ending so that a pirate/viking actually ends up on the Iron Throne ruling Westeros.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

You mean this one?  It's just on Page 3 of the forum - not moved or taken down.

Actually this one:https://www.getty.edu/museum/programs/lectures/got_conversation.html

It's in the video thread.

I was looking in wrong thread, but missed both, must be my 66 yrs. old eyes.

Thanks.

Edited May 30, 2016 by GrailKing

[Bill1978]

The Good:

1. Return of Uncle Benjen!!: Woo! I hate when threads are left unanswered. I don't care if they have merged him with Coldhands, from a TV series point of view it's good to have closure on one mystery. I am curious though about how he was saved. I am wondering if that knowledge can be used to defeat the White Walkers somehow.
2. The Wright chase: Seriously, whenever the wirghts appear of the White Walkers, I am on the edge of my seat as I don't know how it is going to end. On a repeat watchm the tension isn't there but man they still freak me out.
3. Sam & Gilly: I dunno, maybe cause they are good guys but I enjoyed this side trip. I loved Sam's female relatives. His dad is a tool, and his brother...I don't know. I think he likes Sam and secretly hates how his Dad treats Sam, but maybe I read the acting wrong.
4. Arya: I never thought I would put her into my Good list, but I was actually captivated by her plot this week. And I hope she sticks Needle into the Waif good and hard. I actually think The Waif is why I have disliked Arya's trip to the Faceless Men. PLus I don't understand how the Faceless Men changing skins thing really works to be honest. But that's just my simple mind
5. Bran's Vision: So much to see, so little time. And I loved the appearance of the Mad King I hope he appears in future visions

The Bad

1. Dany: Mainly cause I am just sick of her motivation speeches that have gone nowhere for 6 seasons. So you have a dragon, that don't impress me much. Do something or shut up. I also found it a bizarre choice to end the episode on her speech. It felt more like something that would lead to an ad break, not the end of the episode. When she finished her speech and the credits began I sat there and went 'That's it?' The ending felt similar to the ending of Nashville last week. It just concluded.
2. The Freys: Only cause it felt like a massive recap and exposition dump for stuff that is going to happen.

The Yawn

1. Once again King's Landing: I just can't muster up enthusiasm watching these people nitpick over something that in the big picture means nothing. It's like watching people argue over who gets to eat the last mango moments before an asteroid hits the Earth.I hope the White Walkers come and destroy them all - High Sparrow first. Cause the White Walkers don't care if you've atoned. You are just dead.

 

So overall, while no one died and nothing major really happened. I quite liked the episode. True it felt like a standard romp through a Middle Ages drama - no nudity, excessive violence, crazy death - so understand why some felt it wasn't Game of Throne-ish. But after 5 heavy episodes, it was nice to stop and take a breath.

[Umbelina]

I wonder who the waif really is.  Do faceless men turn back into their true selves when killed?

[Hecate7]

On 5/30/2016 at 1:06 AM, Eyes High said:

I think the dialogue is just fine. It's workmanlike, to be sure, but serviceable enough for moving large chunks of plot along, which appears to be the writers' top priority these days in any event; the dialogue is the lubricant that greases the wheels of the enormous engines of plot to be ground forward. The writers don't have the luxury of treating the dialogue as beautiful ornamentation that serves as an end to itself; it is a tool and a mechanism. When you approach dialogue in that fashion, you're not going to get painfully gorgeous writing; you'll get serviceable dialogue that moves things along, as the GOT dialogue does. Works for me. Furthermore, I find that a lot of the book dialogue is atrocious, apart from the deliciously bitchy repartee and the occasional fine speech; it's "campy good fun" and often just as workmanlike as the GOT dialogue at its core. Shakespeare it ain't, and neither is GOT, and I don't have a problem with that. I don't expect Shakespeare from pulpy fantasy (although I demand bitchy, Dynasty-worthy dialogue), and I don't expect Shakespeare from a television adaptation of monstrously bloated fantasy, sagging under the weight of its subplots, that needs to be shaped into something semi-coherent for TV. I accept both ASOIAF and GOT for what they are and don't expect or imagine them to be anything other than that.

No, he's right, some of the writing is awful. Sorry if you are one of the writers or something, but it's dramatically declined even just since last season. Tyrion doesn't even sound like Tyrion anymore. Is there a strike? Did someone die, or get fired or something? Because IT SHOWS. Really. It does. There's no comparison between this season and season one, and there's a dramatic difference between this one and the last season. "We're in a hurry," "this is TV," etc...is no excuse for the show suddenly sounding like Galavant.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Hecate7

[Macbeth]

I think a man is tired of dealing with 2 teenage girls.

I think whenever Dany does one of these epic speeches/or goes on a power trip - its like she goes on a bender - proclaiming things/endorsing things while she is clearly under the influence - then wakes up and has to be told what happened while she was drunk.

It explains why her story keeps going in a circle.  She finally convinces Drogo to take the Dothraki to Westerosi - she is completely enthralled when he makes his big speech.  Next morning, Dothraki are raping and pillaging a town on her behalf - and she is like - "Surely, this isn't what I wanted."  And within a short period of time - Drogo is dead.

However maybe now she will just stay on her bender.  She is now riding Drogon - she is probably too high in the sky to notice the raping and pillaging.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Macbeth
spelling

[dizzyd]

I have a few questions:

Why do we not see Ned's older brother in the wargbacks? Was he not important to the story besides being Catelyn's bethrothed?

Did Arya not use a Face when she was pimped to Illyn Payne?  Killing him seems to me the only productive thing she got out of this trip to Braavos unless she has mastered the disguise.

I still don't get why the COTF made the WW.  Do WW only kill men while men kill trees?  If that's what they want, then why are they helping Bran?

[glowbug]

This episode was a bit slow for me. I think it's mainly because I don't care about King's Landing at all. Along with Mereen (with the exception of the red priestess last week) it's my least favorite plot line. I just don't care about any of the characters. TPTB have ruined Jamie, one of the best characters of the book, and it's just painful to watch him. It's very clear that the writers weren't kidding when they said Jamie and Cersei were true love and they have done away with his redemption arc to make it so. I do wonder if Bran seeing Jamie kill the Mad King after he says "burn them all" is foreshadowing him killing Cersei if she burns down King's Landing as has been speculated for years. If they just wanted to foreshadow Cersei burning King's Landing with wildfire they didn't need to include Jamie killing the Mad King. In any case, Jamie has been completely ruined and I'll never forgive TPTB for their treatment of him. 

Sam and Gilly's plot was all right. I liked meeting Sam's family but there are so many more interesting stories going on that it seemed like a waste of time. His mother and sister were wonderful, his father was as bad as expected and Dickon was neither good nor bad. I think Sam stealing the sword was a set up for something important that will happen later on. 

Dany's speech at the end seemed really out of place. Why make such a speech without provocation? The Dothraki were already following her and there was no hint of them questioning that decision. It would have made sense if she did something to upset them and they started questioning her authority but they didn't seem to need that speech at that moment. The speech really did cast her in a villainous light. I still hope she ultimately ends up on the side of good but it does seem like she's heading in the wrong direction. I don't think she's being set up as a villain in the same way that Book Cersei is or Ramsay or Littlefinger are because it's clear she has good intentions for the most part, but she's not going about it the right way. 

Arya's storyline was one I actually liked. I'm interested in her rejecting the Faceless Men and realizing that she will never be no one. I was happy to see her finally retrieve Needle. I want her back in Westeros ASAP, although I do wonder if she's going to have a target on her back for the rest of her life. The Faceless Men don't seem like a good enemy to have. 

Bran's storyline has tied with the Wall for the most interesting story this season and this episode didn't disappoint. His visions are always great and in these last two episodes he's seen the most action. I was glad to see Benjen back and I'm glad that he's Coldhands in the show. I don't think he will be in the books based on the CotF saying he was very old and GRRM's note to his editors but I think it was the right decision. The only thing that sucks is that I'll still have to wait on GRRM to reveal the mystery of Benjen in the books. I was hoping the show would spoil it so I could have my answer sooner. 

Overall one of the weaker episodes this season but it did have its redeeming qualities. 

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, and that's the other thing about the damn pirates.  I don't care if they live on treeless islands or how long it would take them (decades no doubt) to build a fleet of 1000 ships.  If 1000 ships are to be?  I'd rather they just show up than watch GRRM forge every nail, and spend chapters felling trees, while wiping out villages to steal saws or enslave the much trod upon peasants to carry the logs to ships.  I don't need to read about each rudder being smoothed, or sail being sewn, let alone mixing the special paint or the urchins braiding the ropes.

No thanks.

Ships appear!  Fine with me, get this show on the road.

Ha!  I'd love to see Euron pull into Port Meereen only to be told, "Mother of Dragons?  She left last week. Got a loan from the Bank of Braavos and hired 1,000 ships in Volantis. Maybe if you hurry you can catch up.  Good luck to you!"

[lmsweb]

5 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Ha!  I'd love to see Euron pull into Port Meereen only to be told, "Mother of Dragons?  She left last week. Got a loan from the Bank of Braavos and hired 1,000 ships in Volantis. Maybe if you hurry you can catch up.  Good luck to you!"

I need to clean my monitor off now. I laughed so hard I snorted my diet coke all over it.

[Sunnydayman]

5 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Assuming that R+L=J (and I prefer to!), he may not be a bastard.  Targaryens had been known to practice polygamy from time to time, so it's possible that Rhaegar (very, very) quietly married Lyanna.  If that's the case, then, as the heir of the oldest of the Targaryen offspring, he would also be the heir to the Iron Throne, possibly the most uncomfortable throne in the history of the universe.

 

The question is, when is it revenge and when is it justice?  Especially when you live in a world where the official "justice system" does not give a damn--or will do anything--about it?  

The problem with Jon being legitimate Targaryen lies in the proof.  You would need Targaryen loyalists to confirm it.  If Arthur Dayne shows up Jon is good.  

I hope you are right though.

[paigow]

If Qyburn can revive the Mountain, some maester should be able to figure out some kind of blood test for Jon. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by paigow

[WearyTraveler]

58 minutes ago, dizzyd said:

I have a few questions:

1) Why do we not see Ned's older brother in the wargbacks? Was he not important to the story besides being Catelyn's bethrothed?

2) Did Arya not use a Face when she was pimped to Illyn Payne?  Killing him seems to me the only productive thing she got out of this trip to Braavos unless she has mastered the disguise.

3) I still don't get why the COTF made the WW.  Do WW only kill men while men kill trees?  If that's what they want, then why are they helping Bran?

Numbers are mine, for clarity.

1) I think that we might hear about Lord Rickard and Brandon again, but I don't think we'll see them, and that probably has more to do with the size of the current cast and the budget than their importance to the story.  At the end of the day, seeing Aerys is more important than seeing Bradon, and we can get the story from people discussing it.

2) Arya used a face when killing Meryn Trant (from the King's Guard, he was one of the ones that did Joffrey's bidding).  I think we'll see that she's able to change her face now.

3) The CotF inhabited Westeros before Men came with their metal weapons and started conquering.  They pushed the Children out and took their lands.  They also substituted their gods (weirwood trees) with their Seven. Leaf explained that they were losing the war against men and that's why they created the WW.  It's Westeros' version of a super soldier.  I think the implication is that at some point, the Children lost control of their creation and/or their creation rebelled and started acting on their own. I don't think WWs creating other WWs was part of the plan.  And so, the CotF made peace with the First Men and built the Wall to keep the WWs out.

Edited May 31, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Alayne Stone]

Kind of an underwhelming episode for me.

I have 0 interest in King's Landing at this point. It doesn't even enrage me anymore, which would at least provide some sort of sick entertainment for me.

Dany's speech on Drogon might have been more impressive if a.) it didn't feel so overshadowed by the finale of episode 4 and b.) if I didn't know this was the reason all the direwolves were being killed off. Frankly ... I think seeing Dany riding Drogon would have been more impactful if they had waited to do it when her army returns to Meereen. The Dothraki had already pledged themselves to her. This just felt repetitive.

I knew either Benjen or Coldhands would show up to save Meera and Bran, but I was not expecting a hybrid of the two. As always, the scene I was most interested in didn't feel long enough. Bran's flashes were wonderfully shot and edited and I hope we get more glimpses of them. I have a feeling they'll be using Bran to show us some of the stuff from the House of the Undying that was left out.

Arya's stuff felt flat to me as well but at least they kept her character's name this time. I guess that's something.

Not an awful episode but not a great one either.

[paigow]

52 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Ha!  I'd love to see Euron pull into Port Meereen only to be told, "Mother of Dragons?  She left last week. Got a loan from the Bank of Braavos and hired 1,000 ships in Volantis. Maybe if you hurry you can catch up.  Good luck to you!"

Hopefully preceded by a "P.I. refreshing amnesiac bartender's memory with gold" scene...

Bartender: What can I get for you?

Euron: I'm looking for a girl...

Bartender: You and me both pal...you want ale? Or a fine Dornish chianti?

Euron: Calls herself Mother of Dragons

Bartender: Lots of mothers come here...they all sort of blend together...I'm no good with faces...

[Umbelina]

I mosied over to the unsullied thoughts on this one and was not surprised that they seemed to love it, although their views on Jamie, while accurate for the show, are so sad to read, and sadly, they think Needle is made of Valyrian steel. 

[Amers]

In the books, are all these undead people Starks also? I know Cat comes back as lady stone heart, and now on the show there's Jon, and Benjen. Could this indicate something? There's no other dead and brought back people on the show other than the one dude from a few seasons ago. 

I guess this has me questioning the Jon r+l thing. Because isn't the prophesy about Azar, whomever many think be is, slated upon the rebirth? If all these other people are coming back to life in various ways, doesn't that really throw a wrench in things? 

 

I need to read the books. I feel like I watch an episode and then I have to read the internet to understand what the heck is going on because I swear to god, I screamed "wtf is Black Jack Randall doing on Game of Thrones?!" Hand to god, didn't remember him at all. 

[lmsweb]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I mosied over to the unsullied thoughts on this one and was not surprised that they seemed to love it, although their views on Jamie, while accurate for the show, are so sad to read, and sadly, they think Needle is made of Valyrian steel. 

I have to sit on my hands reading those threads.

[Alayne Stone]

In the books Benjen and Coldhands are two different people, so no ... he doesn't count.

There's also Berric Dondarion and of course some people who believe Euron and Melissandre might be undead (I tend to agree with the latter). So no ... not all Starks.

And yes, I highly recommend reading the books.

Funny story: When I saw Toby again, I knew it was Edmure, but I was still having very negative Black Jack Randall flashbacks too. ;)

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Amers said:

In the books, are all these undead people Starks also? I know Cat comes back as lady stone heart, and now on the show there's Jon, and Benjen. Could this indicate something? There's no other dead and brought back people on the show other than the one dude from a few seasons ago. 

I guess this has me questioning the Jon r+l thing. Because isn't the prophesy about Azar, whomever many think be is, slated upon the rebirth? If all these other people are coming back to life in various ways, doesn't that really throw a wrench in things? 

 

I need to read the books. I feel like I watch an episode and then I have to read the internet to understand what the heck is going on because I swear to god, I screamed "wtf is Black Jack Randall doing on Game of Thrones?!" Hand to god, didn't remember him at all. 

Or you can compromise, and just read various plot and character descriptions on Westeros.  You can also sample chapters on GRRM's not a blog to see if you are interested in actually reading his stuff.   I needed Westeros and other fan sites just to remember who the hell he'd decided to finally make important 3 books and 590872962 pages later.

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I think a man is tried of dealing with 2 teenage girls.

I think whenever Dany does one of these epic speeches/or goes on a power trip - its like she goes on a bender - proclaiming things/endorsing things while she is clearly under the influence - then wakes up and has to be told what happened while she was drunk.

It explains why her story keeps going in a circle.  She finally convinces Drogo to take the Dothraki to Westerosi - she is completely enthralled when he makes his big speech.  Next morning, Dothraki are raping and pillaging a town on her behalf - and she is like - "Surely, this isn't what I wanted."  And within a short period of time - Drogo is dead.

However maybe now she will just stay on her bender.  She is now riding Drogon - she is probably too high in the sky to notice the raping and pillaging.

Ha! That explains everything in Arya's plot SO well!

Oh and yea, it occurred to me that there is NO way Dany will be able to control the Dothraki when she gets to Westerous. She won't be able to stop them from raping and pillaging any more than she can stop her dragons from eating children. The Dothraki - much like the dragons - are wild things that when loosed will do as they please. If Dany wants to be worshiped, she should stay in Meereen and Slaver's Bay. Westerous is going to think she is a monster.

And by the way, I think my changing view of Dany is also being influenced by how people worship her and how she basks in it. Contrast that to Jon utterly rejecting it. I am more and more convinced that she will die and he will rule in the end. In the books, I wonder if Aegon and Jon will come to a truce and have to work together to calm Dany the f-k down so they can fight the Others - and then Aegon/Arienne will rule a Southern Kingdom while Jon/mystery wife rule a Northern Kingdom. I just have the distinct feeling that the politics of Westerous are going to change significantly after this and that no one will sit the damn bloody Iron Throne when it's all said and done.

Edited May 31, 2016 by nksarmi

[Knuckles]

i must admit I like reading the unsullied threads...they have a fresh take and no special expectations for the characters. Me, over the years I have read and reread most of the books and I have strong feelings about many of the characters. Some of my favorites are wholly missing...Val, I'm thinking of you...others are even better on screen than in the books...David Bradley's Walder Frey for example. I mostly don't mind when I am lost in Westeros that Martin himself starts detailed plot lines that end up going...where? D&D streamlining the endless Ironborn chapters is a plus...destroying Dorne, not so much.

The Hound and Arya travelogue was a wonderful addition, and as was the Jaime/Brienne saga...and Tormund...on screen, an antagonist, turned ally turned heartthrob...from a fairly minor figure in the books. I'm like a kid who has fallen in love with the story and on screen or in the books, my question is always, so, what happens next?

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

If Qyburn can revive the Mountain, some maester should be able to figure out some kind of blood test for Jon. 

Or maybe he can ride Drogo and then walk through fire and become Jon of House Targaryen, the First of His Name, The Unburnt, the Undead, the Unbastard Who Knows a Thing or Two.

[Rocket]

Even John's army is going to do some raping and pillaging. In our world by Peter the Great's time things were somewhat reformed any town that surrendered when the offensive siege trenches reached the walls was spared. But Peter had to let his troops rape, pillage and burn when one town stupidly did not surrender. But this is before that in history and pillaging is something almost all the forces expected to be able to do the Dothraki are just better at it and more inclined to pillage without a God leading them.

As a superstitious people basically dealing with someone that they think is a God I'm sure Danny will be able to cut way back on her troops pillaging. As long as Danny lets them pillage those who actually fight her only and then only the noble locations I'm sure they will be content but only because they worship her. With work the Dothroki can be converted to new thoughts especially if well cared for then Danny will truly have her Ottoman Empire on the way up army made up in our world of a huge light horse force descending from part of the Mongel horde with her core of elite slave infantry Jannisaries in our world. 

John so far has been a horrible leader for medieval times to have any chance at the throne. What we admire now is not admired then. John was so bad he barely got elected against a hated mostly opponent and then had no clue on reading his troops or how leaders get assassinated if some hate so he got killed. Even now you don't get elected President without a huge Ego and a surety that your right for the job. Now Danny not much better on reading folks who are not Dothroki but she now has some kick ass advisors that she will listen too except on scaling down her ambitions. Now Sansa acting like Danny might get him somewhere. 

What Danny wants is to take the throne that is rightfully hers and that is the conviction that any great leader in a medieval time has to have to have a good chance to win. What we reject nowadays in her attitude is what the people expect from a great leader then. And anyone who wants to rule has to be ruthless to their enemies, where a good person like Danny can do is restrict the oppression and looting of people the army passes by that are not enemies and leaving the peasants alone unless they are part of a force defending a town that does not surrender. Danny can be on the good side of what "the greats" did then but she can't be modern or treat people the way John is temped to do. 

Now yes Danny can go mad and be the villain there is a fine dividing line for great leaders between greatness and oppression, and I understand the dislike of some of her detractors who can't turn on the judge them by their times filter needed to truly enjoy more realistic medieval fiction or fantasy. I love Danny as the great, blessed by the gods, leader in a fantasy medieval tail. But I don't want dictators like her in the modern world (in large part because you can't replace them with another good one normally). 

I thought the Dragon should scare the horses but remembered these are nomadic horsemen, the best type that ever existed, riding mounts trained for war so all the horses did was fidget.

Dragon was very smart to add a huge roar right at the right time to close mom's speech. 

[Harald Hardrada]

Still waiting for Victarion to show up.

[Nanrad]

11 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Because Viserys was suffering the effects of being inbred, like his daddy beforehand. When Dany finally gave herself permission, she dispatched her brother to become the queen.

They both were inbred. Dany didn't dispatch her brother just because. When she threatened and/or killed him, he'd already been constantly threatening her as well as implied abuse. As another poster reminded us, he told her he'd get the Dothraki men to rape her too. And she didn't need to dispatch him to become queen. 

8 hours ago, MadMouse said:

It's easy to dismiss Viserys mental problems on the inbreeding but people forget he was old enough to remember his family before the Rebellion and what happened to them. He was eight when it ended so he has memories of his brother, father, mother, niece and nephew all who were killed. And we know the stories of what happened to them have spread far and wide. The guy had every right to be angry and want blood. If you root for Arya, Jon or any of the Starks to reclaim their home and to get some revenge then you should be on Viserys side too.

None of the Starks are abusing other people or their sibling as they try to reclaim their home. Although some may have similar stories, that doesn't mean we should root for them, especially when context is taken into consideration. Arya's family was slaughtered, but even with Sansa, she wants her sister safe and happy and vice versa. Viserys abused and threatened his sister. Not matter how much he wants blood, there are very few people who want to root for that.

[Ambrosefolly]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

They both were inbred. Dany didn't dispatch her brother just because. When she threatened and/or killed him, he'd already been constantly threatening her as well as implied abuse. As another poster reminded us, he told her he'd get the Dothraki men to rape her too. And she didn't need to dispatch him to become queen. 

Yes, but Viserys suffered the bad effects of that inbreding while Dany got the rewards of being  blood purity with not being insane and not being able to burn.  If that kinslying thing is real, I wonder if the gods "punished" Dany and Drogo by killing Drogo and having Rhageo being still born.

Why did that merchant that set up Drogo and Dany didn't send Viserys to Arianna to marry? House Martell probably could have gotten the guy under control.

In general, I kind of hate how kin killing has been removed as one of the forbidden curses, just like violating the Guest Right. 

Quote

None of the Starks are abusing other people or their sibling as they try to reclaim their home. Although some may have similar stories, that doesn't mean we should root for them, especially when context is taken into consideration. Arya's family was slaughtered, but even with Sansa, she wants her sister safe and happy and vice versa. Viserys abused and threatened his sister. Not matter how much he wants blood, there are very few people who want to root for that.

None of the Starks were heavily inbred, and by the time they were orphaned, together. I wonder if Viserys resented Dany because their mother died giving birth to her, leaving them both as orphans, plus the really real threat of the Baratheons (probably suffering their own effects of being slightly inbred themselves) trying to kill them, despite having nothing to do with Lyanna and their brother's actions. GRRM really made Viserys unlikable as possible so everyone would be rooting for Drogo to kill him, even though Dany pretty much admitted Viserys and Mirri Maz Duur right about the Dorthaki when she didn't blink when she burned alive those Khals.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Oscirus]

Quote

Why do we not see Ned's older brother in the wargbacks? Was he not important to the story besides being Catelyn's bethrothed?

While it would've been cool to see his death since it was fairly brutal, I can see why they wouldn't want to show it ( budget concerns). As for his importance, while people like to blame Robert, Brandon was the hothead who guaranteed that war would happen after Rhaegar spearwifed Lyanna by threatening the crown prince at King's landing. Not to say that the mad king wasn't a psycho but still.

Quote

If that kinslying thing is real, I wonder if the gods "punished" Dany and Drogo by killing Drogo and having Rhageo being still born.

Considering that they killed him because Viserys was threatening Dany's unborn son, I'd say it's safe to assume that kin slaying was justified in that instance.

I have to say that this High Sparrow has quite the strategic mind. He continue checkmating these people at every turn.  He still hasn't taken into account that Cersei's a psycho, but for now he's proving to be quite formidable.

[MissLucas]

13 hours ago, mac123x said:

The thing that bugged me about the 1000 ships lines (both from Euron and Daario) is that having 1000 ships does no good if you don't have the crews for them.  Sailing is a skill, not something you can just get a bunch of untrained people to do.  Sure, manning the oars on a galley doesn't take a lot of training, but operating sails does.  

 

I know it's a silly nit-pick, but those kinds of errors are immersion breaking.  

I don't find that a silly nitpick at all considering that the Dothraki will be busy barfing, so someone else has to man the oars. The "1000 ships" are somewhat reminiscent of Homer's famous Catalogue of Ships - the Greeks had 1186 ships (and they just wanted to take one city and not Seven Kingdoms - but of course they had no dragons). Some folks extrapolated from the number of ships and data provided for some ships how many troops the Greeks sent to Troy - numbers vary between 94'000 and 142'000 men.

[Conan Troutman]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder who the waif really is.  Do faceless men turn back into their true selves when killed?

I'd say let's find out, shall we?

[Misplaced]

10 hours ago, glowbug said:

Arya's storyline was one I actually liked. I'm interested in her rejecting the Faceless Men and realizing that she will never be no one. I was happy to see her finally retrieve Needle. I want her back in Westeros ASAP, although I do wonder if she's going to have a target on her back for the rest of her life. The Faceless Men don't seem like a good enemy to have. 

Jaquen did say "one way or another, there will be a new face in the hall" (or similar, it's not an exact quote).  So I am wondering (speculation spoiler)

Spoiler

If Arya kills the Waif, whether the Waif's face in the hall will satisfy Jaquen's condition and Arya can leave free and clear.  

[stagmania]

There's been a lot of talk about how the show has ruined Jamie, and how much they've changed him from his book characterization. I read the books so long ago (and must admit my attention wandered frequently through 4 and 5), so I only have a vague recollection of his Riverlands story. Reading the plot summary to refresh my memory, it seems that the biggest change is that the show has decided to keep he and Cersei close with no schism between them, either because he somehow still doesn't know about her betrayals or he doesn't care, and in doing so they've essentially erased his redemption arc. Is that the bulk of the issue? I do wonder why they would choose to remove layers of complexity from his character, as well as a good source of drama in he and his sister being at odds. It just makes the story less compelling.

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I think a man is tried of dealing with 2 teenage girls.

Worse-- bickering teenage girls who want to be daddy's Jaqen's favorite.

 

14 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

It's possible that Rhaegar married Lyanna, but the question is who could prove that?

There is the speculation that some evidence is to be found in the Stark tombs.  Maybe a signed marriage certificate or something.  I dunno, I don't think it will matter either way.

5 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Still waiting for Victarion to show up.

NOOOOO!  Leave Rollo alone!  

Spoiler

He's busy founding a dynasty in Paris!

 (And is too clean beautiful to be Victarion.)