S03.E05: This World Is Our Hell

[Tara Ariano]

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Hecate and Ethan struggle to survive in the harsh desert wasteland.

[Primetimer]

A single, simple scene takes Penny Dreadful forward by leaps and bounds (and stabs!).

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[WaltersHair]

Really disliking where this season is headed. Ethan. How could you?

[GenieinTX]

Victor was never really playing with a full deck, but he's totally gone off the deep end into insanity now.  Dude is out there.  And Ethan is going full on evil?  Don't like that at all.   I have to assume Malcolm is there to bring him to his senses and he's going to kill the witch.  I can hope anyway.

[Pogojoco]

What kind of witch can't summon water? An annoying witch? I'm going with yes. 

What is a Penny Dreadful episode without Eva Green? This, I guess.

Wes Studi's voice is mesmerizing, though. 

[rozen]

I think Victor is just free to be his true and honest self around Henry. You don't figure out how to reanimate corpses by doing reasonable things. He's been doing messed up shit just like this for a long time. 

So Hecate is planning to pole vault up the servant ranks by serving up the Lupus Dei on a platter for Lucifer? If he had free control of Ethan's body he probably could seduce Vanessa in under a day and blow raspberries at Dracula. 

Tsk Tsk, Daddy Talbot is enough of an egotist to think he can use Malcom at will? He's been king of his little mountain for too long, doesn't realize when someone needs to be shot first thing. He set up a duel and if anything Malcom hates losing. He's going to burn the whole place down on principle. 

[islandgal140]

33 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

What kind of witch can't summon water? 

A struggle witch! She can summon snakes but she can't make it rain or something?

The Ethan leg of this show has been a fail to me and that is mostly due to the Hecate angle. I just can't suspend disbelief enough to buy that Ethan would fall for her special brand of bullshit. Seriously?!? Swapping and bonding over shitty parents tales under the stars? Giving up and just deciding to be evil for ... reasons?  Please!

I absolutely despise Hecate and I hate, hate, hate the fact that Ethan threw her some D.  If this show is headed for a wolf demon baby daddy storyline, I'm truly done. 

Ethan's dad is really an asshole. He brags about cleansing (really slaughtering) his land of the Apache men, women and children whom he views as no more than inhuman animals yet was I supposed to cry for him Argentina when the chickens came home to roost?

I really expected the bodies to still be there when Ethan's dad saying he left things just as when he left when he led Ethan to the slaughter room.

[MsChipper]

OK, this has to be the weakest episode by far. We need Vanessa there to slap some sense into Ethan! Did he forget what Hecate did to her and the rest of them already?

And sorry, but Eva/Vanessa does the devil mojo talk thing much better than Sarah/Hecate.

[FurryFury]

I didn't dislike this episode, but Ethan was way too passive all the time. And please, get the mains back together. I'm tired of them being scattered. Give me Vanessa/Malcolm, Vanessa/Ethan, Vanessa/Victor, show! I'm starting to get frustrated.

I did like Jared's narration about the Apache attack, that was well done and appropriately creepy. But I'm not sure how we're supposed to root for Ethan in any of that. Frankly, I'd expect Malcolm to shoot him, not Hecate (who's a bitch though, no argument from me).

Edited May 30, 2016 by FurryFury

[Margherita Erdman]

2 hours ago, islandgal140 said:

A struggle witch! She can summon snakes but she can't make it rain or something?

The Ethan leg of this show has been a fail to me and that is mostly due to the Hecate angle. I just can't suspend disbelief enough to buy that Ethan would fall for her special brand of bullshit. Seriously?!? Swapping and bonding over shitty parents tales under the stars? Giving up and just deciding to be evil for ... reasons?  Please!

I absolutely despise Hecate and I hate, hate, hate the fact that Ethan threw her some D.  If this show is headed for a wolf demon baby daddy storyline, I'm truly done. 

Ethan's dad is really an asshole. He brags about cleansing (really slaughtering) his land of the Apache men, women and children whom he views as no more than inhuman animals yet was I supposed to cry for him Argentina when the chickens came home to roost?

I really expected the bodies to still be there when Ethan's dad saying he left things just as when he left when he led Ethan to the slaughter room.

Absolutely, I thought if they were going the cultural appropriation route (I can find no Chiricahua origin myth that in any way resembles the story told in the cave) they might as well have a jolly rain dance while they were at it.

Also, did anyone think that the snakes were a whole lot of show but not in the end very effective? All that "evil right under the sand" Hecate was talking and they couldn't even kill everyone?

Please, with all the mercy killing out in the desert, someone definitely needs to put Hecate out of our misery before she conceives or whelps an evil puppy.

I too was bracing myself for a far more macabre scene when Brian Cox threw back the doors — was expecting bodies mummified in place.

What I did find creepy in this episode? The bedroom where Hecate found herself chez Talbot. That empty dollhouse and the row of dolls at the foot of the bed... Yikes!

Did not miss Lily and her household — Dorian has pretty much literally been reduced to nothing more than a vehicle for her to dance and move about in society.

[Ravenya003]

When the least shittiest father in an episode is Malcolm Murray, you know you're surrounded by assholes.

That said, I think I liked this episode a lot more than others did - but then, I'm quite enjoying Hecate (much more so than last season). It intrigued me that she could hate her mother so much for what she did to her as a child, and yet still be a willing servant of Lucifer.

So glad they got Brian Cox for this role - he nailed his big scene.

[sjohnson]

If it wasn't for Brian Cox, the Chiricahua Apaches would have lived long and happy lives? Although they hadn't coined the word "genocide" then, of course that's why Ethan hates him so much. And of course Ethan actually becomes a member of a tribe by spending a couple years killing with them? And of course after Ethan decided to give himself up to be hung in England, he lives on for the joy of murdering his father? And of course he just happened to become a werewolf for reasons...unworthy of remark. It is completely true that Brian Cox sells the revelation scene and that it's a startling subtlety for this show not to pour fake blood everywhere. 

The only thing that really makes sense is the hookup. Only bad women put out in Penny Dreadful, so Ethan's options were kind of limited, barring entry into a monastic order.

We have seen how grossly incompetent Victor is. Obviously he's not going to succeed at anything. He's too wussy to intimidate or even lead a strong villain like Jekyll. 

[FurryFury]

I think I was watching too much Game of Thrones, because when Ethan's father started to tell the story about the attack I was bracing myself for detailed account of rape of both mother and daughter, but nope, just murder and torture (not that it wasn't horrific). I was actually surprised.

[snowblossom2]

1 hour ago, FurryFury said:

I think I was watching too much Game of Thrones, because when Ethan's father started to tell the story about the attack I was bracing myself for detailed account of rape of both mother and daughter, but nope, just murder and torture (not that it wasn't horrific). I was actually surprised.

I thought the daughter was raped but he didn't go into detail

[Margherita Erdman]

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

[snip] And of course [Ethan] just happened to become a werewolf for reasons...unworthy of remark.

[snip] We have seen how grossly incompetent Victor is. Obviously he's not going to succeed at anything. He's too wussy to intimidate or even lead a strong villain like Jekyll. 

Thank you sjohnson, in the wake of Brian Cox's performance I forgot entirely that I expected the werewolf to be explained this episode. I thought it had been heavily implied that it was part of his Apache punishment, to live as part beast, not in control of himself, but I was looking for confirmation, and now that question is still just hanging out there... Doesn't seem to be a genetic family trait either, unless that is what's coming in the promised bloodbath/clusterfuck/dinner party next episode!

Victor is utterly incompetent at relationships, I agree, but he does seem to have hit on something with his electrified lobotomy serum. My guess, watching Jekyll, is that whether or not they ever get Lily down there to try it on her, something will happen (perhaps Jekyll's father will die and he will be due to inherit?) that will cause Jekyll to beg Victor to do the procedure on him.

2 hours ago, FurryFury said:

I think I was watching too much Game of Thrones, because when Ethan's father started to tell the story about the attack I was bracing myself for detailed account of rape of both mother and daughter, but nope, just murder and torture (not that it wasn't horrific). I was actually surprised.

50 minutes ago, snowblossom2 said:

I thought the daughter was raped but he didn't go into detail

No explicit act of rape described or implied, though all that stabbing and cutting, the penetrating bloody violence, is certainly figurative rape. A lot of imagery of Christ going on there too (particularly the brother — pierced with a lance on the altar, because lances were such common weapons in the 19th c. Southwest) and martyrdom of saints... Interesting that the Talbots seem to be Catholic, or at least very high Episcopalian.

[Not for nothing, and not on topic, but I do think that it attests to the power of GRRM's storytelling (and a form of sexual violence related PTSD that I associate with Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire) that I had the same apprehension about the mother and sister, and even the brother, and I also connected it to that story cycle, even though I haven't watched the show since the first season, have only read the books. Didn't need to see the rest enacted on the screen, or didn't think I could bear it.]

Edited May 30, 2016 by Margherita Erdman
Because not really =/= not at all

[FurryFury]

2 hours ago, snowblossom2 said:

I thought the daughter was raped but he didn't go into detail

I'm not sure it was even implied. They did make her blind and deaf though (*shudders*), but there was nothing sexual mentioned, at all.

[WaltersHair]

BTW, whenever I read Hecate I see it as HepCat from the Flintstones (I think) which is the opposite of this woman.

[Neurochick]

Just binge watched the 5 season 3 episodes.

I kind of liked this episode though Ethan's storyline has bored me this season.  What I've noticed this season is that it is a lot more violent than season one.  Maybe they have a larger budget or something.  Some of the violent scenes make she shake my head, too much Tarantino/Matrix type shit for me.  And don't get me started on the bloody three way orgy, that nearly made me laugh it was SO fucking excessive.  

I liked this episode because of the scene between Ethan's dad and Malcolm.  Ethan's dad telling Malcolm that looking at him was like looking in a mirror.  Sir Malcolm didn't like the sound of that, but he was silent when Ethan's dad asked him, "When you were in Africa, how many of those men did you kill?"  Ouch.  

When Ethan's dad was telling the story of how the family was murdered was chilling.  To me, the special effects and beautiful sets mean nothing if the acting sucks.  I think if we, the audience, had actually seen what happened to Ethan's mother, brother and sister, it would have paled in comparison with his father telling the story.

Hecate (and I always read that as Hell-Cat) is someone that I can't stand because I get the feeling she was cast because someone thought she looked a bit like Eva Green, but I find her annoying as hell and I can't wait for her to disappear.  

[TrueMyth]

I really enjoyed this episode, as much as I dislike the choices that Ethan is making.  I also thought that part of the plan of calling the snakes on the marshals was to steal their supplies.  None of them seemed to be suffering from dehydration yet and there were a lot of them, so they would have had enough canteens to easily get Ethan and Hecate through the desert.  I'm also not sure why Malcolm didn't catch up to them the next day.  They were VERY close together that night, and they still had two horses.

I was fine with Ethan taking some kind of revenge on his father before I had the whole story.  Now I'm just in shock, and I really don't want him to open himself to Lucifer, but I feel like either way will make for some interesting stories!

[snowblossom2]

3 hours ago, FurryFury said:

I'm not sure it was even implied. They did make her blind and deaf though (*shudders*), but there was nothing sexual mentioned, at all.

 

4 hours ago, Margherita Erdman said:

Thank you sjohnson, in the wake of Brian Cox's performance I forgot entirely that I expected the werewolf to be explained this episode. I thought it had been heavily implied that it was part of his Apache punishment, to live as part beast, not in control of himself, but I was looking for confirmation, and now that question is still just hanging out there... Doesn't seem to be a genetic family trait either, unless that is what's coming in the promised bloodbath/clusterfuck/dinner party next episode!

Victor is utterly incompetent at relationships, I agree, but he does seem to have hit on something with his electrified lobotomy serum. My guess, watching Jekyll, is that whether or not they ever get Lily down there to try it on her, something will happen (perhaps Jekyll's father will die and he will be due to inherit?) that will cause Jekyll to beg Victor to do the procedure on him.

No explicit act of rape described or implied, though all that stabbing and cutting, the penetrating bloody violence, is certainly figurative rape. A lot of imagery of Christ going on there too (particularly the brother — pierced with a lance on the altar, because lances were such common weapons in the 19th c. Southwest) and martyrdom of saints... Interesting that the Talbots seem to be Catholic, or at least very high Episcopalian.

[Not for nothing, and not on topic, but I do think that it attests to the power of GRRM's storytelling (and a form of sexual violence related PTSD that I associate with Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire) that I had the same apprehension about the mother and sister, and even the brother, and I also connected it to that story cycle, even though I haven't watched the show since the first season, have only read the books. Didn't need to see the rest enacted on the screen, or didn't think I could bear it.]

Thanks for the clarification, though I thought Ethan's father said they did horrible things to her (in addition to cutting her tongue and making her blind). I also watch GoT and read the books, so perhaps that's why my mind went there, especially since it's on right before PD

[FurryFury]

I think mutilation does count as a horrible thing. By the way, I wonder if we'll see the sister again - it kinda felt like foreshadowing of some sort.

[Domenicholas]

1 hour ago, FurryFury said:

I think mutilation does count as a horrible thing. By the way, I wonder if we'll see the sister again - it kinda felt like foreshadowing of some sort.

I agree.  Unless I'm wrong, Ethan's father didn't explicitly say that his daughter died in the attack- only that she was mutilated. Being blind and mute would be a cruel fate for anyone, but it is still life.

I'm not too worried about Ethan embracing his sins and throwing his lot with Hecate; this is his "burning the crucifix" moment.  I am pretty sure that he will literally be on the side of angels before the end of the season.

I like Hecate more this season than last, but I'm not jumping at her relationship with Ethan.  I couldn't put my finger on why this bothers me, but Alexander Sweet's relationship with Vanessa does not.  Then, it hit me: Hecate is obviously manipulating Ethan, and if he wasn't so guilt-ridden and lost then he wouldn't have fallen for something so obvious.  Sweet is trying to build actual trust and intimacy with Vanessa, which is much more effective and "rootable" because that is how any relationship works.

I can't wait until everyone is reunited again.

[Ravenya003]

4 hours ago, Domenicholas said:

Then, it hit me: Hecate is obviously manipulating Ethan, and if he wasn't so guilt-ridden and lost then he wouldn't have fallen for something so obvious.  Sweet is trying to build actual trust and intimacy with Vanessa, which is much more effective and "rootable" because that is how any relationship works.

Personally I think what Sweet/Dracula is doing is FAR FAR worse than what Hecate is up to. She at least is honest about who she is, what she wants and how she's going to get it. Dracula is playing a very cruel game with Vanessa by making her believe he's something he's not. 

[ganesh]

I liked having an episode in the American West. I really didn't like the horse being shot though. I'm hoping Ethan is playing Hecate. He's in his house now, so to speak, and I don't think she quite knows the whole deal here. So he could be stringing her along and using her as he needs. 

Great casting for the father though. You can't really ask for better than Brian Cox. So much heavy with he and Sir Malcolm facing off. 

Hey, take note, tv people. You can make a "dark, gritty" show that totes the weight but is still actually fun to watch. *Entire Walking Dead franchise*. I like watching Penny Dreadful because I know I don't actually have to put in work to just enjoy the show. 

[LittleIggy]

Brian Cox is always freaking awesome. Good choice!

Yeah, I was thinking "why can't that stupid witch conjure up a spring of water? Bloody useless!"

[Raachel2008]

9 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I liked this episode because of the scene between Ethan's dad and Malcolm.  Ethan's dad telling Malcolm that looking at him was like looking in a mirror.  Sir Malcolm didn't like the sound of that, but he was silent when Ethan's dad asked him, "When you were in Africa, how many of those men did you kill?"  Ouch.  

 

And you could see that Sir Malcom was thinking "Aside my own son that I lef to die? Well, let me count, buddy". Terrific scene between these two. 

Brian Cox is a superb actor. What wonderful acting when he told what happened to his family. I trully enjoyed just listening and not seeing what happened, so much more effective and powerful. Kudos to the show for that.

I too think Ethan's sister is alive - or was alive for some time after the attack. Maybe his father killed her as an act of mercy?

By the way Kaetenay can fuck himself, eye for an eye and all that, okay, go live by that shit and get your bloody revenge, but don't pretend to be daddy dearest to the guy whose mother and siblings you slaughtered. Points to Papa Talbot for not pretending to be anything but hate and rage and wanting payback for what happened to his family one way or another.

Either Ethan is playing Hecate or Hecate is totally falling for Ethan, because Ethan just giving up and embracing evil is too simplistic for this show.

Did they really have to kill the horse? Don't kill the animals! Kill the bad people!

How did Hecate and Sir Malcom managed to keep their clothes so clean the whole time?

And on a shallow, shallow, shallow note - because I'm shallow, shallow, shallow -Josh Hartnett playing Ethan is so fucking hot it hurts.

P.S. Sorry, I have zero patience for Victor and his Victorian junkie drama. 

[Margherita Erdman]

12 hours ago, Neurochick said:

[snip] I kind of liked this episode though Ethan's storyline has bored me this season.  What I've noticed this season is that it is a lot more violent than season one.  Maybe they have a larger budget or something.  Some of the violent scenes make she shake my head, too much Tarantino/Matrix type shit for me.  And don't get me started on the bloody three way orgy, that nearly made me laugh it was SO fucking excessive.  

I liked this episode because of the scene between Ethan's dad and Malcolm.  Ethan's dad telling Malcolm that looking at him was like looking in a mirror.  Sir Malcolm didn't like the sound of that, but he was silent when Ethan's dad asked him, "When you were in Africa, how many of those men did you kill?"  Ouch.

That's an interesting observation that this season is more violent — it hasn't felt that way to me — either the frogs slowly boiling in a pot effect, or maybe just that the psychological violence has always been so intense and well-done that it's difficult for me to distinguish from the physical violence in retrospect. I do think there are many different kinds of violence happening along a tonal spectrum, with the Dorian-Lily-Frankenstein axis solidly in the category of Grand Guignol grotesque and sometimes, as you note (the bloody three-way), just risible, but Ethan and Sir Malcolm are living in a world of grit and realism, where the stakes seem much higher.

One thing that is really working for me this season, and this episode in particular, is that I think we are really beginning to get our Victoriana mashup payoff, beyond just the delight in geeking out over genre classics and literary Easter eggs: so much of the best of 19th century fiction forced readers to confront the difference between how society wished to see itself and how it really was (distilled especially clearly by Wilde in Portrait of Dorian Gray) . Now we're beginning to really match up the metaphorical with the literal with the impact of colonialism, manifest destiny, patriarchy, monarchism, etc., etc. Even the littlest details — Victor's and Henry's poor research subject in Bedlam, the Scottish nationalist, has essentially been locked away for refusing to participate in the Empire's worship of the Queen. It is fitting that Tennyson's death kicked off the season — as we watch the shadows and ghosts of the Victorian era that haunt us even today.

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

I really didn't like the horse being shot though.

 

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Did they really have to kill the horse? Don't kill the animals! Kill the bad people!

Those horses were dying slow agonizing deaths of dehydration with every step. The gunshot was a mercy that I hope also was extended to the other horses discarded across that desert, and I was glad to not have to watch them drop one by one. I actually was wishing a little bit that they would get down and drag their own asses across the wasteland (which they did eventually if course), or use demonic juju, conjure up a well-watered camel, something.

Of course this show is all about desperation and despair, so it all works on that level, completely.

I have a feeling the "kill all the bad people" part comes after dinner next week. "Bad" as usual being completely subjective.

[teddysmom]

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What kind of witch can't summon water? An annoying witch? I'm going with yes. 

Thank you!!!!  I was yelling at the tv "Hermione Grainger would have summoned water and apparated them to the ranch.  She had a fucking tent in her little purse in DH1 for God's sake!!" 

That being said, what Hecate's mother did to her is just god awful.  I'm very surprised at Ethan's change of heart, unless he's playing a long con. 

[ganesh]

I think he is playing a long con just because as it was said, it's too easy for this show. Or, he's pulling a 'enemy of my enemy is my friend.' He's basically in enemy territory and didn't know Malcolm was there yet. 

[sjohnson]

Badness on Penny Dreadful seems to be quite objective, I think. The more purely you love Vanessa Ives, the gooder you are. The more you just want her or even dislike her, the badder. 

[iMonrey]

I for one enjoyed the break from Vanessa and Dracula after last week's bottle episode. In fact this episode goes a long way toward proving the show would be just fine without Vanessa. I know I'm in the minority on that in these parts, but I just find the other stories so much more interesting.

That said, I'm still confused about why we haven't found out how Ethan became a werewolf and I sure hope they get around to it before the season ends. I'm also not real clear on why he hates his father so much; yes Talbot Sr.'s men slaughtered Apaches but surely so did the US government, and then the Apaches turned around and slaughtered Ethan's mother, brother and sister. Now, I get that Ethan maybe didn't realize that until just now (although it's curious he didn't ask after them as soon as he arrived) - but just the fact that his father ordered the slaughter of Apaches - an activity in which Ethan himself was engaged until he deserted the army - is a strange motivation for revenge.

I'm also still confused about the relationship between Ethan and Kaetenay. The latter keeps calling the former his "son" yet, apparently, Ethan abandoned him and now wants him dead. Is that because he did know Kaetenay's tribe slaughtered his family? We still need a lot of information here in spite of such a talky episode.

At least Victor has gotten himself cleaned up; he hasn't looked this good since Season 1, so he must be off the drugs for now.

[Margherita Erdman]

LOL sjohnson. But that's sort of what I meant. Our heroes include: Sir Malcolm,  an exemplar of the white imperialist/Great White Explorer archetype (although he has come to be more shaded than that); Ethan the indiscriminately murderous werewolf who participated in the massacre of American native peoples as well as random Londoners; the late lamented Sembene, a slaver to his fellow Africans; Victor who is utterly without moral compass and a patronizing chauvinist of the highest order... Who am I forgetting? John Clare/Caliban the creature, who has seemingly been on a redemption arc? Kaetenay, who brutally butchered the youngest and most helpless of the Talbots? Hecate who maybe/maybe not will be pulled to the light even as she believes she is converting Ethan to the dark?

Edited May 31, 2016 by Margherita Erdman
Added Kaetenay

[WaltersHair]

Quote

John Clare/Caliban the creature, who has seemingly been on a redemption arc?

I recently did a re-watch of season one and I'm horrified by the redemption arc. If this series is about atonement, then he needs to atone for literally ripping Proteus apart with his bare hands and taking the head off Dr. Van Helsing. If he shows at least some remorse, I'll buy the redemption arc.

I think they may be switching to Lily as Frankenstein's true monster.

[darkestboy]

Not my favourite and unlike last week, I did miss not having more characters but there were good moments in it.

Ethan and Hecate's whole thing has gotten somewhat more interesting. She's not good for him but this episode has done a lot to flesh her out more though character wise.

Ethan's reunions with Malcolm and his own father were interesting, especially the last scene.

Malcolm's scenes with Kaetenay continue to be interesting as well.

Liked that the Jekyll/Victor scenes broke up bits of the main narrative as well, 7/10

[Dobian]

That poor horse.  Horses don't fare well on a lot of shows these days (I'm looking at you, Walking Dead). I thought it was an interesting episode, and I liked the interplay between Ethan's father and Malcolm.  And the father's description of what happened to his wife and daughter was chilling.

[kieyra]

Hmm, Penny Deadwood is not doing it for me.

I suppose last week's bottle episode may have helped pay for the big location shots and whatever this week, but I'd much prefer the cast was not so scattered. I understand why shows do this, and I suppose Ethan's mythos needed to be examined, but the Hecate actress/character does nothing for me and Ethan is meh in emo cowboy mode without something to give him texture (like Vanessa, or Sembene, or the blond gay guy whose name I have sadly forgotten). And the western genre in general is not my cup of tea--unless it literally IS Deadwood, but nothing else will ever be Deadwood. 

Did a lot of skimming. Missed the horse deaths, fortunately. I am tired of animal deaths on television. I suppose we all have our GoT PTSD triggers now. (Or TWD, pick your poison. We've become quite the masochistic nation of viewers.)

Edited June 2, 2016 by kieyra

[raven]

Well I love me some Ethan but he really needs to stop blaming other people for what he's done.  OK, dad enlisted him against his will (bad dad; and what about the brother?  was he forced to enlist too?) but Ethan falls back on "just following orders" when talking about slaughter.  OK, he kills his commanding officer and begs Kaetenay to kill him...then instead he falls in with Kaetenay for...more slaughter?  So now he blames both of his "fathers".  He hasn't even stopped letting people manipulate him (see:  Hecate).  Very frustrating.

I actually don't think Ethan is playing a con, I think he was angry, thirsty, hungry and weak and got tired of trying to suppress his better nature.  I'm always of the opinion that it's easier to give in to what you know is wrong then to continue to persevere against it and unfortunately Ethan seems to have this past history of giving in.  Could be that being back in his natural habitat, a place with nothing but bad memories is bringing out the worst in him.  He needs to confront who he is and deal with it.  It's kind of amusing to hear him lecture his dad about killing everyone on the train, when Ethan has killed quite a few people too, both in and out of wolf state.

I wonder if Ethan's family are all wolfmen/women?  They live awfully far out and there's a sense of something odd there.  That could be why Kaetenay found Ethan so useful, as well as the intel piece.

You know you're in trouble when Sir Malcolm is the most honorable of your group.  I really enjoyed his scenes with Brian Cox and Ethan's "what the fuck are you doing here" when he saw him made me laugh.

Edited June 2, 2016 by raven

[raven]

On 5/31/2016 at 1:51 PM, Margherita Erdman said:

Victor who is utterly without moral compass and a patronizing chauvinist of the highest order.

He is quite the cluelessly privileged little monster isn't he?  Totally dismissive of Jekyll, never mind the abuse of the Scottish guy - which I know Jekyll is also responsible for.  Still Victor, making plans to "rehabilitate" Lily, completely absorbed in his own world, seems worse than Jekyll for now.   It's a credit to Harry Treadaway that I feel any sympathy for Victor; you know it's all going to end badly, hopefully innocent people don't die.  I like their piece of the story and it made a nice breakout from the West.  

Not even a glimpse of Mr. Lyle?  Please show? 

Oops thought I was adding this to my previous post..obviously not.

Edited June 2, 2016 by raven

[tennisgurl]

This just goes to show that Ethan and Vanessa should never be separated. Nothing good ever happens to them. 

I hope Ethan stops with this new "so now I will be EVIL" thing quickly. I just want him to deal with everything that he has done, and kick Satans sorry ass from Wyoming to London. 

Not often Sir Malcolm gets to take the moral high ground, but Ethans dad sure gave as good as he got. Great scene. 

[FurryFury]

Quote

I actually don't think Ethan is playing a con, I think he was angry, thirsty, hungry and weak and got tired of trying to suppress his better nature.  I'm always of the opinion that it's easier to give in to what you know is wrong then to continue to persevere against it and unfortunately Ethan seems to have this past history of giving in.  Could be that being back in his natural habitat, a place with nothing but bad memories is bringing out the worst in him.  He needs to confront who he is and deal with it.  It's kind of amusing to hear him lecture his dad about killing everyone on the train, when Ethan has killed quite a few people too, both in and out of wolf state.

Yeah, I agree. I'll never believe it was a con.

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I wonder if Ethan's family are all wolfmen/women?  They live awfully far out and there's a sense of something odd there.  That could be why Kaetenay found Ethan so useful, as well as the intel piece.

Unlikely. They probably wouldn't let themselves be slaughtered in that case.

[ganesh]

It's not a con until it is. 

[Sunnydayman]

On May 29, 2016 at 10:48 PM, islandgal140 said:

A struggle witch! She can summon snakes but she can't make it rain or something?

The Ethan leg of this show has been a fail to me and that is mostly due to the Hecate angle. I just can't suspend disbelief enough to buy that Ethan would fall for her special brand of bullshit. Seriously?!? Swapping and bonding over shitty parents tales under the stars? Giving up and just deciding to be evil for ... reasons?  Please!

I absolutely despise Hecate and I hate, hate, hate the fact that Ethan threw her some D.  If this show is headed for a wolf demon baby daddy storyline, I'm truly done. 

Ethan's dad is really an asshole. He brags about cleansing (really slaughtering) his land of the Apache men, women and children whom he views as no more than inhuman animals yet was I supposed to cry for him Argentina when the chickens came home to roost?

I really expected the bodies to still be there when Ethan's dad saying he left things just as when he left when he led Ethan to the slaughter room.

What do you think Malcolm did in Africa... kill and rape.  He is no better than Ethan's father.  Brian Cox was born to play a bad guy.  I chuckle whenever I hear "Wolf of God".  God would never pick an indiscrinate killer as his champion but the other guy might.  Werewolves are the stupidest of the supernatural movie favorites.  Ethan killed Sembene but didn't kill Hecate... special place in hell for him.  

Eva and Rory make the show for me.  This season isn't as compelling as the last. 

[sjohnson]

A

11 hours ago, Sunnydayman said:

What do you think Malcolm did in Africa... kill and rape.

Missionaries and explorers mainly served as agents of empire by doing reconaissance and subversion. The real killing and raping were mostly a consequence of slaving (mostly by Africans attacking other tribes or nations,) or of direct imperial conquest. Or in the east, where Murray presumably was searching for the headwaters of the Nile, the long standing Arab slave traders were the primary agents of mayhem before conquest. (Or in the south, the Zulu mfecane some decades before this period was very destructive.) 

The accusations against both Malcolm and the senior Talbot are more symbolic than anything. It is highly unlikely that Talbot killed more people than Kit Carson, for instance, when Talbot was still a youngish man.

[millennium]

An entirely unconvincing episode.

At no point, not for an instant, did I buy the Ethan/Hecate coupling.   Forget for a moment that there exists no chemistry between them (due in large part to the Hecate actress's limited range) but how in the world are we supposed to believe that the deeply principled, tortured (but essentially good) soul that is Ethan Chandler would just one day say "what the fuck" and choose to go evil?    Just because the plot says so?

And why, WHY, doesn't he hold Hecate responsible for Sembene's death?   She locked them in that room, and even if Ethan doesn't realize she performed the act personally he knows that Hecate, as a resident of the Witch's Castle, is guilty by association.

And  as many have already noted, the witch failing to make it rain was an epic fail.

How could the writers screw this up so badly?  They are so far afield of everything that made the first two seasons so amazing that I fear there is no fixing this before the series ends (I'm watching on Netflix, so these episodes are all brand new to me).   Don't they realize that this show draws its lifeblood from gloomy Victorian England?    The story is shriveling right before my eyes in the merciless desert sun.

Nice to see Brian Cox, although I hoped the story of his daughter's demise would have included that she was skinned alive before his eyes (an old Indian torture inflicted upon captives).   I think that would have been more terrible to imagine than what he described to Ethan.   And yes, I too was expecting to find a tableaux of of mummified family members behind the door,  as a nod to the inn scene at the wax museum in the previous season.