S04.E23: Schism

[statsgirl]

26 minutes ago, Actionmage said:

But Nyssa al  Ghul disbanded the League of Assassins. Still, Malcolm probably has a mansion somewhere sunny where he can "train" his new "daughter" into the  "shape" he thinks she needs to be in.

If it keeps Malcolm busy and away from Thea and the show, I say bring it on.

I felt so sorry for Thea, stuck in Laurel's apartment with the bazillion candles. So creepy, girl needs to get out and stop obsessing. Were the candlest for effect, or does LoA training require you to live with candles and candles forever?

It makes sense that when Diggle wants to run away, he re-enlists in the army.  That was always his safe place, the time when he and Lyla were getting on well and when they couldn't make their marriage work as civilians, he went back for another tour.  For him, the army is order and life outside is where he can't cope with the disorder.

Maybe the Poppy/Felicity parallels were that he killed Poppy but he doesn't kill Felicity?  Although I'm sure many were hoping he would.

It is kind of sad that the Poppy actress knew how much everyone hated the flashbacks.  (The Reiter actor seemed like a nice guy too.)  At least SA and the EPs know that too. From SA's remarks about Arrow getting back to what it does best and being a superhero show without superpowers, I'm guessing they knew h ow badly the magic stuff went over too.

36 minutes ago, quarks said:

3. Speaking of the nukes, this episode continued to gloss over a pretty important plot point - one nuke DID fall on a populated U.S. area, killing it. It's bad enough that this isn't getting brought on Flash, given that Flash does get regular news updates from Arrow, but really not good that Arrow only mentioned it during the "previouslies" and as something that gave Damien additional power - not something that Team Arrow is still dealing with/needs to deal with.

They mention it a couple of times in the episode itself too, but only in connection with giving DD power (e.g. Felicity sadly saying that her hope in Oliver isn't enough to counteract DD's magic any more and Oliver replying that not since he got the power from thousands of lives lost).  Hopefully they'll deal with it next season.

I do like the parallels of Felicity feeling responsible for those deaths and Lyla now responsible for the lives of the ARGUS agents she sent in to take DD.

[Xenith22]

[apinknightmare]

I do actually believe that somehow Laurel would've wanted Oliver to spare the life of the guy who tried to obliterate the world by deploying nukes. Multiple times. And actually succeeding with one. She was a weirdo that way. 

[EmeraldArcher]

1 minute ago, Xenith22 said:

Hahahahahahahaha!!  BRAVO!!

[kismet]

49 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I'm guessing, given that Oliver and Felicity are not together and they'll have limited scenes at home, their loft set is going to be at least shared with Supergirl. And Felicity's PT office will probably be given up to SG completely.

I actually think LL/TQ's apt looks a little like Kara's apt from SG, if I remember it correctly. So maybe Arrow will lose that. They are definitely losing the PT sets, I can't see them keeping that. Perhaps Curtis's lair, but the PT offices are gonzo.

[kismet]

45 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

So...what was the point of #Poppy? Was it just to give Oliver a reason to go to Russia and join the Bratva? In that case, all is forgiven. Enjoy the afterlife! #Thanks #so #much!

I think it was also to have a picture-off of a loved one. Without Poppy, we would have never known what happened to the Picture.

She could have got off the island in episode one and sent a postcard. And then when he shows up in Russia, she's already dead. Tragic shark accident or something :/

[Guest]

LMAO. That gif is perfect. But seriously, these Laurel mentions were too damn much. And they were all wondering what Laurel would have done. Hmm let's see. Dig up a dead person and take her to Nanda Parbat. Try shoot someone with a gun that didn't have any bullets. Cry that the world was ending BUT WHAT ABOUT ME?!

I'm done now. I'm done. I hope the show is done too. 

[SleepDeprived]

Listen, I know this is all fake science and everything is make believe. For goodness sakes, we had actual magic and mystical totems and year-old corpses coming back to life and Laurel, apparently, getting canonized into Sainthood but... Where will the missile Curtis and Felicity diverted go? Is it just going to keep flying in the air? Drop into the sea or somewhere else? Not detonate at all since they made it think it exploded itself already? I know Felicity had all the other 15,000+ missiles detonate into space by inverting the horizon or whatever (lol. That's really not how you Science, Show!) but what about that one lonely missile that was headed to Starling City?

Heh. It's the inconsequential things that keep me up at night.

[Guest]

I'm just relieved they had Lyla be understanding about Andy's death. With all the talk about fallout of Diggle's lie, I just assumed they might have been heading for a separation or something (hardly surprising with O/F's split over lies) so it was good that she was so understanding and knew he did what he had to do. I really felt for her when she watched him pack up his things though. Watching her husband go back to war zones and leaving her with a baby is tough. :(

[InsertWordHere]

I laughed when Felicity said something like, "we only have 45 minutes [to stop the bombs]" and then the scene immediately cut to a flashback, which at this point only takes unnecessary time away from the main action in a 45 minute episode. That was some amusing editing. 

[quarks]

50 minutes ago, kismet said:

I actually think LL/TQ's apt looks a little like Kara's apt from SG, if I remember it correctly. So maybe Arrow will lose that. They are definitely losing the PT sets, I can't see them keeping that. Perhaps Curtis's lair, but the PT offices are gonzo.

 Curtis's Lair is the QC/PT set with the furniture moved around.

Kara's apartment from SG is a much larger set than any of the apartment sets on Arrow and Flash except for the loft set - it was designed to allow group and expansive high speed fight scenes. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Symbolism? ;) 

[Xenith22]

30 minutes ago, SleepDeprived said:

Listen, I know this is all fake science and everything is make believe. For goodness sakes, we had actual magic and mystical totems and year-old corpses coming back to life and Laurel, apparently, getting canonized into Sainthood but... Where will the missile Curtis and Felicity diverted go? Is it just going to keep flying in the air? Drop into the sea or somewhere else? Not detonate at all since they made it think it exploded itself already? I know Felicity had all the other 15,000+ missiles detonate into space by inverting the horizon or whatever (lol. That's really not how you Science, Show!) but what about that one lonely missile that was headed to Starling City?

Heh. It's the inconsequential things that keep me up at night.

Yeah about those missiles detonating in space...I could be wrong but as far as I know that would also have not exactly have been without catastrophic effect.  First of all ICBMs are not normally given enough power to be able to completely escape Earth's atmosphere...so the vast majority of these things likely had to be exploding in the upper atmosphere.  Back in the 1960s when the US was conducting their tests detonating a couple nukes in space (trying to alter the Earth's magnetic field...because even the scientists were apparently really high back then), the resulting blast created an EMP wave that knocked out a couple satellites and a good bit of electronics in Hawaii.   Oh and these tests are also attributed to possibly creating the greatest hole in the ozone layer.  Now take these couple missile tests and multiply them by thousands and spread them all across the globe.  Best case scenario no more functional satellites, more than half the planet goes back to the dark ages technology wise, its coated in nuclear radiation, and oh everyone is probably dead in a couple years as the ozone layer has been severely decimated allowing the sun to completely cook us in that time?

They mention it a couple of times in the episode itself too, but only in connection with giving DD power (e.g. Felicity sadly saying that her hope in Oliver isn't enough to counteract DD's magic any more and Oliver replying that not since he got the power from thousands of lives lost).  Hopefully they'll deal with it next season.

They mentioned it more than that.  It was mentioned about Oliver feeling guilty about it, and Oliver mentioned the dead people before he killed DD as one of the reasons he was willing to kill him.

[blackwing]

While I am thrilled that Damien Dahrk is finally dead, I thought this season finale episode was so cheesetastically bad.  So all it took to kill Dahrk was for Oliver to stand on a car, give his "Braveheart" speech, and absorb the hope of 100 regular joes?????   Ok.  Why didn't he think to do this, say, 15 episodes ago?   Why didn't Mystical Voodoo Lady from several episodes ago tell him this?

I note from the map of the nuke that Star City is apparently Chicago.  The map showing the trajectory of the nuke leaving Colorado clearly indicated Lake Michigan   and Star City is right where Chicago is.  Then the second map (that turned into a tree in the flashback) had a different shaped lake, but still.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Symbolism? ;) 

LOL OMG. That's...some reaching. Hope it didn't hurt! Haha.

[kismet]

14 minutes ago, quarks said:

 Curtis's Lair is the QC/PT set with the furniture moved around.

Kara's apartment from SG is a much larger set than any of the apartment sets on Arrow and Flash except for the loft set - it was designed to allow group and expansive high speed fight scenes. 

Oh, I thought it was a different basement set they used for Ray's lair & the make-shift lair last season. :( Well, guess I really don't pay close attention to Curtis or Ray scenes.

Kara's loft/apt is much bigger, but I doubt they can take it with them to Canada :( Which is a shame because I loved her Apt.

I wonder what will happen to the sets amongst the 4 shows, but we have all summer to ponder that.

Edited May 26, 2016 by kismet

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, SleepDeprived said:

 but what about that one lonely missile that was headed to Starling City?

It's up hanging with Oliver's arrow that he shot to the moon. I bet there's a whole area right above Starling City full of arrows, missiles, air/bloodborne viruses, etc.  

[kismet]

4 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

It's up hanging with Oliver's arrow that he shot to the moon. I bet there's a whole area right above Starling City full of arrows, missiles, air/bloodborne viruses, etc.  

Is it a big cavernous space? :)

[Xenith22]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I note from the map of the nuke that Star City is apparently Chicago.  The map showing the trajectory of the nuke leaving Colorado clearly indicated Lake Michigan   and Star City is right where Chicago is.  Then the second map (that turned into a tree in the flashback) had a different shaped lake, but still.

Don't trust the lazy prop guys this the 2nd time they botched this (the first was the Climb map).  Star City is definitely not anywhere near Chicago.  While at one time the inverse layout of Chicago was used for its design it has mostly been located on the West Coast for the past few decades in the comics (Originally at or near Seattle but moved to Northern CA after Seattle became a real place in the DC universe).   However TV Starling City actually seemed to have been decided to be Seattle.   There are a couple reasons for this.  The first is that Seattle is only approx 140 mile south of Vancouver so climate wise it's a fairly good simulation.   The second is that Green Arrow has operated out of Seattle on two occasions.  The first was back during Mike Grell's run post Longbow Hunters and the second was at the start of the Nu52 reboot the year before Arrow aired.   It's actually believe that the name change to Starling was even meant to be a nod towards Seattle (in honor of Grell's run since the show sought a similar tone the first season) since Seattle had been known for their overpopulation of that bird to the point where the USDA had to step in and poison a ton of them before they further decimated all the farmers crops in the area.

As far as other evidence there is plenty of it in the first season especially with the biggest being when Felicity flat out gives map coordinates corresponding to those of a Seattle neighborhood.  Afterwards any time we got a zipcode it was again Seattle based. There have also been a lot of mentions of the West Coast including a couple this very season about best security on the West Coast, and best coffee on the West Coast (which certainly seems like another potential strong Seattle reference too).    Oh and of course since Lian Yu was state to be in the Pacific and we know the Queens Gambit left from Starling City...it again obviously means that it must be West Coast.

The only thing to conflict with this besides the lazy map props is the issue of Central City.  We have never gotten an location on Central City either, so most assumed it was near its comics counterpart in Missouri, and again the prop guys even showed a couple letters that had Missouri listed as the address.  However we've really never gotten anything stated explicit from the show.  In fact you could maybe surmise from the Plastique/tsunami incidents that it may also likely be a coastal city which would likely place it somewhere in California (600 miles would be around San Francisco).   Which also fits with the idea of Barry's arrival in National City (also definitely CA) on EarthCBS, when the other times he has jumped between worlds/time its been to about the same location.  Although Portland also seems like a strong possibility despite being a lot closer than the stated 600 miles (which makes sense with how common travel between the cities has become) and the show actually uses a lot of Portland imagery with even STAR labs being superimposed over the Portland skyline)

---------

On a different note...I just went back and checked and yeah the Ghosts do apparently all have their guns during the big brawl.  So it now makes even less sense why they ran into a fist fight instead of just mowing the crowd down.   I mean Darkh even had Brick on his team...you would think that he might have known how he was defeated and taken some notes?  For that matter when were the Ghosts all replaced by the Putty Patrol?  Because the untrained citizens were absolutely just beating the tar out of them.

Also I have no idea how this lines up with the Flash timeline now...I mean my first thought would be that it happens after the Flash finale?  Because there is no way to rationalize the fact that thousands of nukes were about to destroy the world not being mention by any of the Flash cast?   It's not even like Barry would have been able to do anything about it since he can't exactly stop thousands of nukes and would not even have a clue who was behind it...but even despite Zoom threatening to destroy the multiverse and his father dying I think the entire planet being almost nuked seems like something they would still notice and comment on?  Of course then the whole potential Flashpoint makes things messy where it seems like Arrow finale had to be before the Flash's otherwise it would have been retconned?

Edited May 26, 2016 by Xenith22

[Happy Harpy]

Knowing that the end of the world wouldn't come killed the stakes for me and made me unable to care even about those characters I love fretting about the end of the world. So plot-wise, nothing worked for me.

So the whole season led us to the Power of Love and Hope triumphing of the Big Bad, his dark magic and his evil plans, literally and for realz...no. Not even on a supernatural show, but here no, no, no, NO.

 The flashbacks were per usual, but the dialogues were mostly bad, I found them full of affected self-importance. Maybe I wouldn't have felt this way if I had been emotionally involved, but alas. Everything felt disjointed, I wasn't following a story but jumping from one scene to the other.

I didn't feel that it worked as a satisfying ending, one that gives sense to a whole story, actually. I took it as a "phew, finally we're going to be done" ending where the priority was to set up next season and not properly end this one. I thought it was more like a tabula rasa move after a season-arc crammed with elements that just didn't work imo.

Of course some things were great, too. As always, it was mostly great, great character moments. Oliver/Felicity, OTA, Lyla (she needs to stay!) Diggle/Lyla. And Donna/Quentin are still together and alive. Curtis was well-used, too. Felicity was the MVP for me (all is in the backbone) but Oliver wasn't too far behind. This is the Oliver I know and love. I felt for Diggle, his guilt makes complete sense with what I know of the character. P.Blackthorne nailed the little he had to do. The last scene was my favorite ("not a chance" awwww) and I also loved the Donna/Lance and Diggle/Lyla part of the montage.

So the episode didn't work for me in itself, but it managed to make me hopeful for S5 in the sense that there's no manufactured conflict inside the team.

I was rolling my eyes in annoyance at the Saint Laurel stuff until I suddenly found it hilarious. Better character dead than alive, That's so Laurel!

Edited May 26, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[kismet]

I always imagined CC as a San Francisco/Berkeley area. It's sunnier & has an earthy/crunchy/academia feel to it.

I'm pretty sure, SC is supposed to be Seattle. Everything about it screams Seattle. I know it's not Boston, but they love using stock footage from it. Maybe its the variety of building heights & Boston's proximity to Water. It seems like they want SC to be Urban but still Coastal. Boston with its Ports fits that bill from aerial perspective.

[Password]

Perhaps this is indicative of how I felt of the episode and the season climax as a whole, but I'm kind of sick of dudes ditching their families to deal with their internal issues. Particularly on this show. I understand why he'd do it, but Sara and Lyla are being let down and I'm quite deflated by it. 

Overall, I don't share viewer optimism about the episode. It wasn't even just meh for me. Season 1 ended similarly, in fact in a worse state, but I was SUPER excited for season 2 then. Now I'm just hopeless. I think I'm over Arrow and it's endless gloom. 

The only thing I'm excited about is the fact that Oliver finally has a job. #SoBlessed

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Symbolism? ;) 

They're bringing in The Ring from Chuck?

[Password]

I had hoped that Felicity and Oliver were at Moira's grave but nope the writers WON'T LET ME FORGET ABOUT LAUREL.

[looptab]

Well, I was actually mildly excited for this episode, and that of course worked against me. As said, it was pretty choppy. The scene I was looking forward to the most - Oliver giving the speech on the car - wasn't quite as I expected. I mean, I still appreciate the gesture, the moment and what it means in and on itself - him giving hope to the city - but the dialogue left a lot to be desired.

So, how did it work during the street fight? Did Darhk tell the Ghosts to wait hidden behind the corner and come out when he said the keyphrase? Noteworthy that they didn't shoot the crowd but just run against them. Plus when the citizens started chanting "Go away" I had to laugh.

The flashbacks were again so bad they were hilarious. Curtis' speech didn't do much for me. The WWLD and Saint Laurel mentions were so random and untrue and WAY. TOO. MANY. When was she ever this person they kept taking about?

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I do actually believe that somehow Laurel would've wanted Oliver to spare the life of the guy who tried to obliterate the world by deploying nukes. Multiple times. And actually succeeding with one. She was a weirdo that way. 

Yeah, me too. "Let me go breaking hospital-bound people's arms and shoot people when I feel like it, but hey - taking a prisoner it's taking it too far!"

Diggle's stuff was awesome and sad and it had weight. Thea's conflict came out of nowhere, they never bothered showing that she was pondering on this before. I like how Oliver and Felicity were left. By the way, that moment when Felicity realized that her hope in Oliver wasn't enough was heartbreaking to me.

Quote

An in-show middle finger to all the "Kill Felicity" and "Felicity is the most hated" comments, maybe?

@lemotomato, since this was hidden before I had the chance to read the thread, what are you referring to here?

5 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Symbolism? ;) 

Hahahahahah never give up.

All in all, I kinda expected more, but it didn't leave me with a bad taste in my mouth like 323. Like, I'm sure I'll watch this again :) 

P.S. The final fight was soooo bad. so boring. Plus I wanted an Oliver/Felicity "It's the end of the world" moment. :/

Edited May 26, 2016 by looptab

[thuganomics85]

Better then the Flash finale at least, but it did feel poorly edited at times, and it basically felt like it was going through the motions to wrap this season up, and I didn't find anything all that surprising, interesting, or fresh.  Still, I wasn't bored or too frustrated at any time, so that's a good thing.  I'll take it!

Figured all the killing talk was going to lead to Oliver going back to that "dark place" and killing Damien Dahrk.  After everything he did, I just couldn't see his character getting a "Let's throw him in prison and call it a day!" ending, once the battle was done.  It was probably time, but I will miss Neal McDonough on this show.  Even if Damien wasn't written all that well at times, Neal was just a delight to watch anytime he was on screen.  I will miss Damien, his smirks, and his color commentary, anytime he was using his magic to toss Ollie and crew around, like they were rag dolls.

Glad there wasn't too much fallout between Diggle and Lyla over what really happened to Andy, because that would have been too much to take. Not surprised though that Diggle is still feeling a lot of emotions over it, and needs to take a break from Team Arrow.  But reenlisting?  Did not see that coming.  I wonder if that will open more doors, or if it will just all be resolved early next season.

Of course, freaking Malcolm suddenly shows back up and works alongside the heroes again, and is continuing to banter with Thea, even after everything he did to her.... again.  This isn't healthy, show.  I love John Barrowman, but enough is enough.

I kind of wonder if Quentin and Donna will end up being hitched by the time they come back.

Felicity is the only member who is going to stay with Oliver, so maybe this will help them slowly get back on track?

Oliver is now interim mayor.  Oh, that should be fun.  I can't wait to see who he hires as his staff!

May these flashbacks never the light of day again.  I just randomly started laughing when Poppy shot Oliver in the leg, because Oliver really didn't seem to be in that much pain, and was more "Really, Poppy?!  This is such bullshit!" about it.  He was so over the entire thing.  Not sure if that was Oliver the character, or Stephen Amell himself just so, so done with this part of the show.

I get the need to have Laurel be included on some level, but I kept wondering which Laurel they were talking about throughout all of this.  I don't remember this Laurel, who seemed to be a wise sage, who was an inspiration to all.  Even on her best days, she could be just as impulsive and reckless as the rest of them.  Whatever.

Overall, better then the horrid third season, but there was still a lot of misses to go along with the hits.  I hope they figure it out soon.  Even if they can't reach Season Two greatness again, I'd settle for last half of Season One competence.

[Password]

49 minutes ago, looptab said:

By the way, that moment when Felicity realized that her hope in Oliver wasn't enough was heartbreaking to me.

Yes. This part killed me in my heart.

[looptab]

Another thought, if we ever needed ulterior evidence that S4 was basically their second try at S3 - the whole speech about killing DD after sparing the life of the man who killed his mother. Hey, Oliver, you also killed Ra's al Ghul last year! Why didn't you have the moral epiphany before/during/after that?

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think it was a good episode..not great but I enjoyed it more than the S3 finale. The problem is all the crap they pulled before it. Those writers need to stop setting up more stuff that they can deal with.

I got emotional when Poppy died which doesn't make sense because I'm still not sure what her name was, but she was strong and selfless in her last moments and I found that admirable. Total opposite of LL's death that was ridiculous and made her look worse than she has looked in years.

I rolled my eyes at Curtis giving Oliver the hopeful speech like I knew I was going to, but I really liked his moment with Felicity on the rooftop, I guess because that one felt like it was earned.

I loved every moment Dig had and especially the scene with Felicity (theirs is my favorite friendship hands down) and the final scene with Lyla and Sara. So sad but so beautiful.

I liked Oliver and Felicity at the end in the lair. That scene was pretty hopeful so I'm going to need SA to stop giving interviews when he is feeling moody because he ruined my enthusiasm for nothing. Not that they gave them a lot but not "nothing AT ALL" either.

I see they keep telling us how wonderful LL was like they did when she was alive. Too bad they didn't show that person on screen. Seriously LL tried to kill both Komodo and MM so if for example Thea died she would have gone after DD to kill him. Let's not make her the person who was above killing only because she wasn't skilled enough to kill anyone. There was no lack of trying.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awwww, loved the beginning where Felicity stood in front of her mother protectively and then Curtis stood in front of Felicity protectively.

Finally, Damian is dead! Now if only someone would take out Malcolm.

I outright GUFFAWED when Oliver was squatting in front of Laurel's grave talking about how she was always better than him and that's what he loved the most about her.

I don't see Oliver killing Damian as Oliver succumbing to the darkness. The dude had magical powers so this wasn't just some mugger who they could arrest and then have his day in court. And this was a crazy person who almost blew up the entire world. Oliver finally had the chance to stop the madness so he killed him. If he hadn't, Damian would have come up with another plan to destroy the world. I am all for letting the justice system do its thing, but in a case like this with a crazy person who can do serious magic and already escaped from jail, a regular trial and jail cell wouldn't stop Damian. Now if only Oliver would realize the same thing about Malcolm! He keeps coming back and attacking them, betraying them, etc.

When Oliver showed up at the temple and Damian's daughter asked, "What's he doing here?" I was hoping she would remind him that Oliver saved her and tell Damian not to hurt him, but nope! Daddy just cheerfully tells his daughter that Oliver came TO DIE. Great parenting there!

Edited May 26, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Password]

Something I'm a little confused about: did Felicity go with Oliver to the graveyard and just gave him a minute or? Did she follow him there?

I'm still stewing because it was Laurel and not Moira.

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Password said:

Something I'm a little confused about: did Felicity go with Oliver to the graveyard and just gave him a minute or? Did she follow him there?

Pretty sure she went with him and was giving him a minute. He didn't seem surprised at all that she was there.

[cambridgeguy]

Does Mayor Queen get a permanent security detail?  Won't they be kind of suspicious when their boss constantly vanishes at night?

It's good to see the Arrowlair has the same level of security as Star Labs.  If you're not going to lock the doors at least have a little bell on it so you have some warning before the guys with the guns start pouring in.

[mrspidey]

Writer #1: So what can we steal from Batman this time around?

Writer #2: Oh, I know! The final battle from The Dark Knight Rises!

[AyChihuahua]

19 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Writer #1: So what can we steal from Batman this time around?

Writer #2: Oh, I know! The final battle from The Dark Knight Rises!

Which, to be clear, they already stole once, back in S3. 

[mrspidey]

What Season 3?

[theacostov]

I didn't hate it but I didn't love it. It was kinda meh. 

The Dhark conflict has been dragged out too long this season that it was just like, let's just end this instead of doing the same dance over and over again. I think what this season was missing was a great twist regarding Dhark and Hive. We were told that he was going to let the world die to rebuild in the first episode and then by the end of the season all that changed is we found out how. I miss the unfolding mystery that we had with the Undertaking in season 1 and even the slow reveal of Slade in 2. There was not really a compelling storyline for the whole season. This led to a really anticlimatic fight and hence finale. 

Not sure how I feel about Diggle leaving. Wasn't the whole reason he joined Oliver because he wanted to do good but didn't know what he was fighting for with the military after he shot that young soldier? Also not a fan that he's leaving Lyla and Sara. Their end scene really got me though.

I'm really disappointed with Thea's storyline this season. The bloodlust was so promising and it amounted to a whole lot of nothing. Hopefully she'll come back next season with a plot actually about her. I did like that she used the daughter. 

I was happy with the Olicity ending. Felicity was given every reason to leave; no job, no family,  almost no friends, trauma from nuking a town but she chose to stay and fight with Oliver. Thats quite a hopeful ending. 

Overall, I know SA said this felt like a season finale whereas last year felt like a series finale. I would disagree and say that this felt more like a series finale.  Everybody picked a path here, all the relationships are in a steady place, unlike with Diggle last year. They could pick up in 5 months time, they could pick up in 2 years time. If I wanted to, I could stop watching right now and it would be a mostly satisfying ending. 

The promo for season 5 is going to be so important because other than Russia they didn't really set up much.  

[AyChihuahua]

7 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

What Season 3?

They did the same thing when the citizens of the Glades fought Brick and his goons.

[benteen]

Speaking of reused sets, the roof that Felicity and Curtis was on was the same roof from the Legends of Tomorrow finale, wasn't it?

Agreed that the Dhark conflict dragged on way too long.

[dtissagirl]

So will they elect Oliver for real Mayor in August in offscreenville? This show makes so many weird choices, man.

[greekmom]

What happened to the spawn of Damien Dahrk? Is she still in the lair? Will she grow up by herself, become creepy young adult and try to kill Oliver?

Who will clean the lair?  Hopefully not just Felicity as I don’t see Oliver as the cleaning type.  That place is a disaster. Will they blindfold some nice cleaning ladies to bring them in and do the job?

Bring in Nyssa as part of team Oliver and kill Malcom. Thank goodness Poppy is dead. Please show no more island scenes next year.

[KirkB]

When the attack on the lair started I was distracted by the fact that when Oliver was trying to get to his weapons he apparently lost his beard. I mean, normally the camera guys are better than that but the stunt double really stuck out.

Overall I thought the finale was fine. Not great. Not terrible. I'm a little disappointed in Dark. I mean, I liked NM so much when the season first started but after a while even I started to get tired of the whole magic shtick. 

I understand Malcolm working with Team Arrow. With the Dark Family Dome destroyed there was nowhere safe to hide from the nuclear rain so he figured he'd be better off trying to stop the end of the world instead. What I don't understand is Team Arrow, especially Thea, working with him. But I guess it's one of those desperate times calling for desperate measure type of situations.. Love or hate him Malcolm is a phenomenal fighter and if (and this is a big if) you can bring yourself to trust him he would make for a good bodyguard. Better to keep the viper in front of you where you can see him I suppose. Though I would have loved to see Thea put an arrow or six in his back at the end, if only for the look of pride Malcolm would have as he died.

[Guest]

I do think it was kinda weird how the world was ending and yet Oliver and Felicity didn't think to hug or kiss goodbye just in case. They missed out on 'we're not together but we love each other so much and the world is ending' kisses. WTF show! LOL.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

What happened to the spawn of Damien Dahrk? Is she still in the lair? Will she grow up by herself, become creepy young adult and try to kill Oliver?

Who will clean the lair?  Hopefully not just Felicity as I don’t see Oliver as the cleaning type.  That place is a disaster. Will they blindfold some nice cleaning ladies to bring them in and do the job?

Bring in Nyssa as part of team Oliver and kill Malcom. Thank goodness Poppy is dead. Please show no more island scenes next year.

Oh, you know Dahrk's daughter will totally become a villain.  Maybe that creepy doll of hers can be her supervillain gimmick.

[Delphi]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

Oh, you know Dahrk's daughter will totally become a villain.  Maybe that creepy doll of hers can be her supervillain gimmick.

Oh,  just like the Crime Doctor's daughter in Birds of Prey running off with Shiva.   She'll show back up in season 11.  Can't wait. 

[lion10]

Well, that last shot of the episode was certainly Guggenheim's middle finger to all the people complaining about Felicity this season.  Is it ever a good idea to piss off a good chunk of your viewership?

Overall this was a pretty disappointing season for so many reasons.  The biggest was Damien Darhk himself.  I never, not once, got a sense for WHY he wanted to destroy the entire world.  What happened to him or Ruve or their daughter that broke him so much that he decided that unleashing a global nuclear holocaust that would leave billions dead was a good idea?  Not once do we delve into his or Ruve's backstory to see what drives them unlike Slade and Meryln and Ra'as.  I just don't get it, why write such a weak villain?  Am I the only one who feels like Damien was wasted on Arrow this entire season?  Twenty three episodes and this is the shit I get as a season finale.

Killing Laurel was a mistake, and especially in the way they did it smacks of "fridging" which is disrespectful of the Black Canary.  Outside of this forum, it seems like Laurel's actually a pretty popular character.

Curtis was pretty cool.

I like Felicity, but I really didn't like how much the show focused on her own drama at her company and her parents.  I tried to get into it, but I just was bored by it.  Because on one hand, you've got Arrow (the title character) fighting a madman who's got telekinesis and powered by death and on the other you've got Felicity adjusting to giving a speech in a wheelchair.  Also her and Donna's hypocrysis about lying grated hard.  Donna lies about the reason Felicity's dad was no longer in her life, and Felciity just sweeps that under the rug.  "Oh, a major source of the trauma in my life was actually caused by my mom's lies and actions that she unfairly loaded onto my dad?  Whatever."  But Oliver hides the fact that he's got a kid because the mother is an unreasonable bitch, and Felicity flips out and in the highlight of the season, literally walks out on him.  It's not even like Felicity has a moment when she realizes that maybe she shouldn't have been so harsh with Oliver given how difficult a situation he was in.

It's like if Daredevil devoted a third of each episode to Karen's own personal family drama that was just barely related to whatever Matt and Foggy were doing.  In another show that revolved around Karen, it would be interesting, but as it is, that's not why I'm watching the show.

Here's hoping that Season 5 is much better and the writing room gets an overhaul.

[tv echo]

Before this episode, I was convinced that Oliver's journey this season was to go fully into the light.  To my surprise, he didn't.  But upon reflection, I think I like the way the show has instead gone with Oliver's journey being toward acceptance that he has both dark and light inside him - and that maybe he needs both in order to be both the killer and the hero that the city needs.  You can't be completely in the light and still kill.  Killing - no matter how justified - is still a bit of darkness.  I also like how they showed that there was some darkness in everyone, even the lightest of characters.  Felicity, Diggle and Thea all have some darkness.  On the other hand, the 'bad' characters also had some light - Noah and Cooper both partially redeemed themselves.  Bottom line, instead of going with one-dimensional characterizations where people are either dark or light, evil or good, the show chose to go with more complex characterizations (except for the ret-conned Saint Laurel).  I believe that's the more balanced, finalized version of Oliver that SA was referring to earlier this year.

Some of my other takeaways from this episode (and this season):

• Introducing magic is bad for Arrow.
• Using nukes as the big threat is bad for Arrow.
• Having a shared universe with Flash/LoT is bad for Arrow.
• Fleshing out the supporting characters around Oliver is good for Arrow.
• Grounded, realistic fights are good for Arrow.
• Smaller, four-member team is good for Arrow.
• Oliver & Felicity together is good for Arrow.

P.S. There seemed to be a ton more commercials during this episode than usual.
 

Edited May 26, 2016 by tv echo

[TVHappy9463]

Sure we could nitpick, but overall, I liked it. I really liked the end. Everyone is exploring a different path, but they will come back together.  Oliver as mayor(interim), gives the show an easy out when the story line doesn't work.  Diggle going back to the Army, brings the potential for more story for him next season.  Still don't care about Thea's journey.  And Malcolm, well he is Malcolm, aside from scenery chewing I am not sure what purpose he serves anymore.

Happy that Donna and Lance rode off into the sunset.

OK, MG, GB, and Arrow writers, lets see what you got for next season.  I'm ready. 

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, lion10 said:

Well, that last shot of the episode was certainly Guggenheim's middle finger to all the people complaining about Felicity this season.  Is it ever a good idea to piss off a good chunk of your viewership?

You're assuming that a good chunk of the viewership actually has a problem with her, which we'd never have any way of knowing since the vast majority of the audience are casual viewers and not internet commenters. 

[Delphi]

Ugh yeah.   I don't think there were more commercials,  but the episode was chopped to hell and really impeded any edge of my seat moments. 

 

The speech on the car was...cheesy to say the least, but I did like the throwback to season 3 where Barry told Ollie that he could inspire people as Oliver Queen. 

I have to say, that now that all my shows are done for the summer,  not a single one of them left me wowed.  I'm whelmed.  But that's about it.  I'm interested in seeing where Gotham and Legends go,  but not terribly so.   I can kinda see where Arrow is going to go.   Flash is just a trainwreck at this point.   So I'm not really sure I have any hope for next fall.