S32.E14: Not Going Down Without A Fight / S32.E15: Reunion

[azshadowwalker]

6 hours ago, himela said:

I don't know if it was mentioned but I was shocked to watch Cydney's Ponderosa video; Scot, Jason and Julia were not TALKING to her at all. Well there's the proof that they were bitter, for those who still doubt it. These douches wanted to be left to play their game as they wanted it, vote people out, go to the final tribal council and persuade the jury to vote for them cause "it's a game" but they can't do the same. But I still believe that Aubry will come back to the game sooner than later and she'll do fine while these idiots will be remembered for what they are: pity little people.

How does being bitter towards Cydney have anything to do with Aubry losing? They cheered for Aubry to beat Cydney. So, I am not getting how their feelings towards another jury member has anything at all to do with the outcome of the game. 

As for Neal, he is still acting like an asshole to Michele on social media. Spur of the moment has nothing to do with it. He's just a petty, bitter asshole. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[ForeverAlone]

I can't really say I am all THAT surprised that Michele won. The only thing that did surprise me was Aubry made it into the finals. She was an easy vote out at F4 because she seemed like an obvious threat to win (and likely would have been in most seasons), but I guess Tai just couldn't cut those emotional ties at that point. And I assumed the final challenge would be for a final two, in which case Michele would have voted out Aubry, and thus complete her Spencer edit (in my mind at least). Even though I was rooting for Aubry to win, I kept the Michele winner's edit arguments I've read in the back of my head, so it is not too surprising the voting emerged the way it did. I find it interesting and funny that Kyle and Scot are getting most of the blame for Michele's win (or Aubry's loss, depending on your point of view), when three women (two of whom Aubry was close to in this game) also voted for Michele. I can't see how those two men were that persuasive, so those three women chose to vote for Michele on their own. But I personally am not all that bothered by it. Even though Aubry is in no way like Russell, I do agree with the comparisons in viewer reactions to Natalie and Michele's win. This decision seems to be the most controversial one since Samoa, and it's fascinating to see the viewer debate continue on social media and fan forums. I find Michele's win to be a reminder that there is no one right way to win and sometimes jurors will vote in ways that contradict what we see on the screen. I don't think Aubry made that many mistakes (though she definitely made some key ones), I just don't think she could have won with this jury while sitting next to Michele. Sometimes there is just no way to win against the persons sitting next to you at the finals, with a certain makeup of jury. I think Aubry would have likely won if she was sitting next to Cydney instead of Michele, because as we saw, a good chunk of that jury did not like Cydney or Tai. But what can you do? Survivor really does come down to luck sometimes, and both Michele and Aubry had good and bad luck that got them to the end and the win or loss.

[ProfCrash]

Quote

How does being bitter towards Cydney have anything to do with Aubry losing? They cheered for Aubry to beat Cydney. So, I am not getting how their feelings towards another jury member has anything at all to do with the outcome of the game. 

The three of them blamed Cydney's alliance shift for Scot and Kyle's boot. They disliked her more then Aubrey because if she had stayed with them, they would have not been blindsided. They refuse to acknowledge that it was a good move for Cydney to make. Just like they refused to give credit to Aubrey for organizing their ouster. They wrote off Aubrey's play as being scared and complained that she was focused on voting out the people she was "afraid" of. Never mind that the you are suppose to vote out the people you are worried about, because you don't want them to vote you out.

Essentially, their childish behavior towards Cydney and their comments about Aubrey demonstrate that they were unable to acknowledge game moves that helped other players even though it hurt their individual games. Michele was not responsible for their being on the bottom (Cydney's alliance shift) or their ouster (Aubrey and Cydney working together) so they voted for Michele.

Quote

I can't really say I am all THAT surprised that Michele won. The only thing that did surprise me was Aubry made it into the finals. She was an easy vote out at F4 because she seemed like an obvious threat to win (and likely would have been in most seasons), but I guess Tai just couldn't cut those emotional ties at that point

I think Tai knew he could not win at that point and was choosing to take the person who had been loyal to him and who he liked. I think emotion played a role but I don't think Tai thought he could win.

[ForeverAlone]

I dearly hope Tai didn't think he could beat Aubry in the end. We have on occasion seen a player contemplating going to the end with a player that could beat them (Coach and Ozzy in South Pacific and Skupin and Malcolm in Phillippines), but in the end they chose to vote them out to give them a greater chance of winning. Tai's exit interviews mention that he was still emotionally tied to Aubry, and he wanted to prove he could be loyal. But Tai is another person who could just not win with that jury, so it didn't matter if he was loyal at that point, or if he was flipping on his alliance. 

[ljenkins782]

3 hours ago, fishcakes said:

It surprises me, but Nick is someone I'd like to see play again. He seems like a different person in his Ponderosa videos, mature and self-aware. If anyone got a bad edit this season, I'd say it was Nick. I'd also like to see Debbie and Cydney get a return invitation and I would hope that the second time around we'd get to see Cydney's warmer side, which was obviously there all along because she seemed to have a lot of friends in the game, the asshole brigade of Scot/Jason/Julia notwithstanding, and see the Debbie we saw at Ponderosa who seems to have full access to her uncrazy side.

Yeah, I'm surprised that I would be okay with Nick coming back as well. His Ponderosa edit was head and shoulders above his show persona so either his robot brain clicked over to "likable" after he was voted out or he did indeed get his worst moments highlighted. The tribal council version of Debbie would be welcome too. 

Quote

And, ironically, it may have been largely Aubry's fault that Neal went instead of Joe. I think Michele was going for Joe until Aubry started talking to her about people who could potentially sway the jury. I believe she was trying to push Scot, as if he'd really try to sway the jury for Tai? But it gave Michele and idea and she went for Neal instead. It was definitely a smart move. 

From what I remember, Neal was Tai's idea. Michele was assuming Joe was the logical choice and it was Tai who brought up the idea of removing a person who could sway the jury and pointed to Neal as that person. If the conversations were shown in the order they happened, Tai had already planted that seed for Michele before Aubry came into it. 

Aubry took up the same argument using Scot, which still baffles me a little. Did she really think Scot was going to be pro-Tai or did she realize that he was pro-Michele and was trying to pull a fast one?
 

Quote

 

I know I personally found her voice so annoying I don't think I could take her seriously.  Is it vocal fry?  A Jersey accent?  Or just an unfortunate voice?

Quote

This may be another reason (in addition to being a talking head dud) that we didn't hear much from Michele until the last episode.  Mr. calico and I were trying to figure out what the accent was.  I know Jersey and it's not Jersey.  "Unfortunate" sounds about right. 

 

Couldn't agree more about that voice. Definitely not a Jersey accent issue (though those are often horrendous too, just in a different way), just an unfortunate voice combined with that irritating habit of going higher on the last word of a sentence making everything sound like a question. I found it tough to listen to her in interviews, but it wasn't quite as bad when she was talking to people one on one. 

[azshadowwalker]

I guess Michele's voice is Julia's fingernails. 

As for supposedly bitter juries, after watching the Jury Speaks videos, the only person who I think has any case for bitter jury complaints is Tai. One person after another saying they would not even consider him, no matter how FTC went. 

[Special K]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

Couldn't agree more about that voice. Definitely not a Jersey accent issue (though those are often horrendous too, just in a different way), just an unfortunate voice combined with that irritating habit of going higher on the last word of a sentence making everything sound like a question. I found it tough to listen to her in interviews, but it wasn't quite as bad when she was talking to people one on one. 

I find her voice difficult too and I've been trying to figure it out.  I now think it has a Philly northern exurb sound to it, like Trenton-ish.  I know some folks from that area who sound kind of like her -- flat and tinny.  Anyone else think so?

[Alapaki]

19 minutes ago, Special K said:

I find her voice difficult too and I've been trying to figure it out.  I now think it has a Philly northern exurb sound to it, like Trenton-ish.  I know some folks from that area who sound kind of like her -- flat and tinny.  Anyone else think so?

I'm born, raised and still live in Philadelphia and its suburbs.  And her voice is very common here.  I would've pegged her for more South Jersey, but Freehold is on the southern side of Central Jersey, so not too far.

[Apocalypso]

14 hours ago, backformore said:

This board has been wonky, so I might have missed the topic -   But, I couldn't take my eyes off Jason's weird choice of attire.   From the pastel floral jacket to the earlobe plugs (did they have WINGS?)  he was looking very strange.

My husband told me the earlobe plugs were little mooseheads with antlers.  He got all gussied up!

I love when fire is a tiebreaker.  This time was so intense!

I am so, so happy not to have to look at Scot's ugly scowl ever again.

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

Aubry took up the same argument using Scot, which still baffles me a little. Did she really think Scot was going to be pro-Tai or did she realize that he was pro-Michele and was trying to pull a fast one?

I think Aubry was just trying to deflect Michelle's obvious choice that was going to be more damaging.  I wonder, could Michelle decline using the reward altogether and choose to not vote out a jury member?  What if Aubry said,  "I think the boldest move would be to read the reward out loud, get the jury all anxious, and then say to Jeff, 'they all earned it and deserve it and I'm not going to take that away from anybody.  I think my case is strong enough that I don't have to sabotage a vote for somebody else.'   That would really make a statement and could really earn some respect.  I think your stock would go up because they'd appreciate that you saved everybody's participation."  (Oh, I know...desperate and not going to fool anybody.)

While I would rather Aubry had won, I did get the impression that her experience really changed her.  Nick told her she had to show confidence, and she did, and in fact I think it stuck.  She seemed poised and assured at the reunion.

[Alapaki]

5 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I had heard at the beginning of the season that Probst said that Michele was a lot like Pavarti. In respect to the outcome of the show, does anyone think that he actually spoiled the show unintentionally or intentionally (in that we needed to watch her because the edit would be so subtle)?

I was team Debbie and Tai and for me, he actually spoiled the winner with that specific comment, even though I was rooting for Tai regardless of what anyone else did on the show (I cant' really be objective in terms of Aubry or Michele's game play, in other words). 

I think the combination of Probst's comparing Michele to Parvati, combined with the close-to-invisible edit that Michele got, was strongly suggestive that there was more to see there than we were being shown.

[kassa]

To me, my disappointment boils down to the fact that I didn't even remember Michelle's name until there were only four people left.  I knew Aubry, Tai, Cydney and half the jury a couple of months ago.  

I could blame the editors, except I think if I go back she actually HAS gotten airtime... it just didn't register as meaningful in any way.   Can't say it's unfair, as "fair" is whatever the jury comes up with.  But disappointing, for sure.

[violet and green]

I honestly believe with that particular jury Michelle could have said "I dunno!" to every question and still won.

I think the Michelle we saw in the edit - droopy in energy, lagging around the camp not doing much of anything helpful, hanging with her head on the shoulder of her vile bestie, Julia, talking in a really dull annoying tinny nasal voice in bland sentences with little interest of note in her observations in her talking heads, having rather pretty eyes, and looking nice in her yellow bikini - was it. I don't think she was doing masterful things they hid from us in the edit. She was a dull girl, and is probably quite a nice girl. I'd say woman but girl seems more fitting.

Being a nice enough person is really not a good enough reason for me to hand someone a million bucks after a bunch of other people have played their guts out for weeks on end, some to the point of being medically evacuated and many with life long scars etc as a result. So freaking disappointing. I feel as if, if I say it enough, it will be undone. If only.... (Can't imagine the if onlys going through Cydney, Aubry, and Tai's heads.) 

[needschocolate]

20 hours ago, Lamima said:

I don't think it was misogyny as much as it was pure bitterness and self absorption. Looking at Debbie's jury speaks, she was bitter still that Aubry put her name down. Julia was BFF with Michele. She swayed the douche bros plus they were all still bitter with Cyd and I think Aubry was super tight with Cyd (she had that brain connection...with Debbie, Joe and Aubry but she seemed to work off of Aubry the most so I think they were a tighter duo than we knew). So the 3 likely looked at Aubry as the equal partner in crime. And Aubry did want Julia out and one of the fellas. I think she was thinking it was best to keep 1 fella, Jason, as a goat but that might not have worked with this jury as we can see how it turned out with Michele.

I might be misunderstanding you, but Cydney wasn't a Brain, she was on Brawn.

 

19 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I read an interview today with Cydney, who defended Michele as a winner.  She said she thought Aubry played a more strategic game, but Michele didn't write her name down and was loyal and that's why she got her vote.  So it goes with what I thought, Michele had more friends on the jury and they were bitter at the other two for outplaying them.  Sorry, but I'll always be a strategy before social type viewer.  If all you have to do is be nice to the jury and not vote them off or piss them off more than the next person, what's the point of strategy?  Those are my least favorite seasons.

I can understand not giving the million to someone who was your ally and voted you out, but if they voted for you at the same time you voted for them, then you are just bitter.

 

7 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

I am mystified by the thought that Michelle is an undeserving winner.  Admittedly, I'm one of those who feels that by definition, the winner "deserves" to win, but I can typically understand that this winner or that one is less admirable, for various reasons.  But usually, it's because the winner in question either did something objectionable or that they didn't do something that they should have.  Michelle showed a very level head for the entire 39 days.  She was never picking fights, and she was very pragmatic about working with anyone, approaching anyone, even if she knew they had been plotting against her.  She never flipped out on the other players, or said something that the viewers at home found offensive.  She was smart about staying on the right side of the numbers, whatever it took.  And she won immunity and reward at crucial times, which is usually one of the most celebrated attributes when discussing winners.

I guess one could say that Michelle did a better job of playing in a manner that would less bother a bitter jury.  Sure, she voted against many (most? all?) of the jury members, but they didn't hold it against her because they knew she wasn't in charge and was just going along to save herself.  A jury that rewards strategy would see her as riding coattails, even if whose coattails she rode changed.

This highlights one of the reasons why I have never missed an episode and look forward to each season - the game is never the same. There is no one strategy that always works.  Yeah, it seems wise to be in an alliance, but it really depends on who you are allied with - they could flip on you, or be medivac'ed, or hey could get voted out.  Or you could be on a tribe that sucks at challenges and end ont he wrong side of the numbers and getting pagonged.  And then, if you manage to make it to the end, it depends on the attitudes of the jury and what they chose to reward.  You need to adapt your strategy to the ones you are playing with.

[Mreid]

Let me just say that Natalie White still remains my least favorite winner but, Debbie made a comment to Cydney at her ponderosa that the younger ones were immature and could not accept the fact that they got outplayed. Its interesting to me how Debbie and Joe the oldest players on the jury were the only ones who voted for Aubry. I thought Aubry handled the jury very well in her answers to their questions she was never rude, never retaliated, but Scot and Jason had their minds made up that they were gonna vote for Michelle because she had no role in getting them voted out. And then Julia says to Michelle, you didnt go to tribal council until day 22, you were the weakest link on the Gondol tribe pre-merge, during the merge you stayed in the middle, she literally gave all the reasons why Michelle should not have won and yet she still voted for her  its just a shame though Michelle prob cant even enjoy her win i know she has seen a lot of negative comments about her on social media, but hey I guess if you have a million dollars in your bank account you could care less what others thing about you. I still think Aubry was robbed, the twist was very unfair to Neal, but aside from those things and the 3 medivacts this was a pretty good season, I just hated the way it ended. Maybe if Michelle got a better edit maybe if they showed us more of her game play more of what moves she did I wouldnt be so upset.

[Lamima]

1 hour ago, needschocolate said:

I might be misunderstanding you, but Cydney wasn't a Brain, she was on Brawn.

 

 

I know but, as she revealed in her Ponderosa, she is a brain too as she went to U Penn. 

[Mreid]

Well disregard half of my previous post because I just checked wikipedia and it says Nick and Joe voted for Aubry everyone else voted for Michelle so Debbie was bitter too LMBO

[Lamima]

9 minutes ago, Mreid said:

Let me just say that Natalie White still remains my least favorite winner but, Debbie made a comment to Cydney at her ponderosa that the younger ones were immature and could not accept the fact that they got outplayed. Its interesting to me how Debbie and Joe the oldest players on the jury were the only ones who voted for Aubry. I thought Aubry handled the jury very well in her answers to their questions she was never rude, never retaliated, but Scot and Jason had their minds made up that they were gonna vote for Michelle because she had no role in getting them voted out. And then Julia says to Michelle, you didnt go to tribal council until day 22, you were the weakest link on the Gondol tribe pre-merge, during the merge you stayed in the middle, she literally gave all the reasons why Michelle should not have won and yet she still voted for her  its just a shame though Michelle prob cant even enjoy her win i know she has seen a lot of negative comments about her on social media, but hey I guess if you have a million dollars in your bank account you could care less what others thing about you. I still think Aubry was robbed, the twist was very unfair to Neal, but aside from those things and the 3 medivacts this was a pretty good season, I just hated the way it ended. Maybe if Michelle got a better edit maybe if they showed us more of her game play more of what moves she did I wouldnt be so upset.

Debbie voted for Michele and Nick voted for Aubry.

[thehepburn]

4 hours ago, kassa said:

To me, my disappointment boils down to the fact that I didn't even remember Michelle's name until there were only four people left.  I knew Aubry, Tai, Cydney and half the jury a couple of months ago.  

I could blame the editors, except I think if I go back she actually HAS gotten airtime... it just didn't register as meaningful in any way.   Can't say it's unfair, as "fair" is whatever the jury comes up with.  But disappointing, for sure.

This is pretty much it. Just a FYI: Michele had one of the highest confessional total of any female winner but they didnt stick when most of them were empty or boring or both.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 0:39 PM, iMonrey said:

I can't believe how much prettier Michelle looked on the island without any makeup than at the reunion well fed and with the makeup gun set to "whore." 

I've long been disturbed by how better looking I find these people starved and unbathed.  I would say close to 100% of the men look better before the finale.  I'm not even a fan of facial hair, but the combo of tan, facial hair, and thinner face is so appealing to me.  I would say at least half of the women are the same (better looking on the island).  Of course, a lot of the women are just made to look better in these situations.  I'm an extremely pale-skinned woman with red hair.  Makeup is my dearest friend.  Blondes with six inches of greasy black roots, women with bizarre eyebrow situations, and women with smaller eyes and sparser lashes, or acne (can't hide with facial hair) just don't translate as well on camera.  I was shocked at how Kim looks with hair and makeup - a completely different person. 

Now I'm not talking Australia Elisabeth, and clumps of hair falling out.  That's just horrifying.  As was Australia's Nick, and many more I can't think of at the moment.

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 1:11 PM, thehepburn said:

Of course Michelle didnt make any mistakes; she had to actually move in order to make some mistakes.

I honestly didn't know Michelle's name until a week or two ago.  I didn't remember Nick's either, but he's been gone for many weeks.  I'm not calling Michelle the worst winner ever, but she gets credit for so much passivity.  And it wasn't strategic passivity, IMO.  And to go by what many said, she was pretty lazy, which I never like to see rewarded. 

Cydney somehow credited Michelle with having a kind and generous heart and giving her a chance to make fire.  Yet Michelle admitted she didn't have any idea there would be a tie!  In fact, Cydney should remember that Michelle told Cydney she didn't need to practice.  Translation Cydney - she was not giving you a chance because she was completely out of touch with that vote.

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 2:18 PM, hyukx3 said:

She still smart enough to play dumb to Nick then vote him out, vote out her ally in Julia and bond with Cydney. Start giving Michelle some credit.

It's odd how many things Michelle gets credit for.  Over and over in this thread I've read how Michelle had to overcome losing her closest allies.  But as this post unintentionally points out, do you really get credit for over coming something you partook in?  Michelle helped vote out Nick and Julia.  This wasn't something done to Michelle and which she valiantly overcame.

So instead of flipping on an alliance member, or even back stabbing, Michelle is over coming the loss of her closest allies.  This is political spin unlike any other.  The tears really helped when she voted for Julia.  Aubry's writing Julia's name down, then scratching it out was a far bigger crime to dim bulb Julia.  I mean, who are these people?  Vote for who you want to, but don't try to make up super special reasons to justify your vote.  Julia didn't like that Aubry and Cydney took issue with the fact that Julia talked to the women, then shimmied five feet down the beach and totally ratted them out, giggling and whispering away.  Julia thought she was an undercover super-secret spy.  She was like a cat hiding behind the skinny coffee table leg - you can't see me!

[Dobian]

On 5/20/2016 at 6:49 AM, hyukx3 said:

Tai would have no protection if he stick with the boys. He have to give up his idol to do the super idol plan. Then the boys would vote Tai out becoz they dont think they can beat him in FT, as they discussed in the show.

He still had his extra vote advantage.  It would have been better if he never allied with them in the first place, it ruined any chance he had of getting votes in the end.  He went from lovable Tai to weasely douchebag.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Dobian

[peachmangosteen]

20 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

As for Neal, he is still acting like an asshole to Michele on social media. Spur of the moment has nothing to do with it. He's just a petty, bitter asshole. 

Really?! Geez. Neal is giving Scot/Jason a run for the biggest dick award.

15 hours ago, auntl said:

The way that I see it is that the most important part of the game is jury management. Aubrey failed at this and Michele didn't. I think that whoever wins played the best game. I also think that the jury is entitled to vote for whoever they want to vote for, for whatever reasons they choose. Michele got 5 votes. Aubrey only got 2. I think that it is very clear that Michele deserved her win. There are no rules in Survivor that set the criteria that a jury has to use to pick a winner. It is up to the players to understand their jury and act accordingly. Aubrey didn't and Michele did.

+1

9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

It's odd how many things Michelle gets credit for. 

I'm finding it odd how much Aubry is being given credit for tbh. I'm not going to argue that the edit didn't strongly implied Aubry was a better strategic player (which remember not everyone has to agree that the most important part of the game is the strategic side) than Michele, but I think the audience is really over-exaggerating what Aubry did in the game. She really didn't play a top tier strategic game at all. She played a good strategic game, good for her. Michele played a good social game and in this particular season that's what it took to win.

Edited May 21, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[Misty79]

I don't think people give Michelle enough credit here. I think her point that because she was on the Beauty tribe to start with she had to prove her intelligence and physical attributes through the game was correct, and she did that very well. What did she end up winning, 4 (or was it 5?) key challenges? Most of those involved some puzzle elements and she regularly came from behind to win at that stage. She chose the absolutely perfect jury member to strip a vote from. She never gave up. 

It seemed to me that she out-brained Aubry, both in those challenges and the way she handled her relationships. I think she came across as genuine, direct and proud of her game in the final tribal council. That Aubry was gunning for her in the last couple of challenges says a lot. She knew she was a legitimate threat. If that final challenge that she won had led to a final 2 (as was widely mooted) and she eliminated Aubry and took Tai and then easily won (probably to zero) would people here still be saying she was an unworthy winner?

Edited May 21, 2016 by Misty79
typo

[iMonrey]

Quote

Essentially, their childish behavior towards Cydney and their comments about Aubrey demonstrate that they were unable to acknowledge game moves that helped other players even though it hurt their individual games. Michele was not responsible for their being on the bottom (Cydney's alliance shift) or their ouster (Aubrey and Cydney working together) so they voted for Michele.

Exactly. Scot targeted Aubrey the minute she didn't jump at the chance to work with him when he offered it to her. And Jason whined that nobody was "playing" because nobody wanted to flip and work with him. In their minds, if people don't do what they want, they're dumb. Because whatever they do is the right thing so of course smart people would do what they want. Michelle did what they wanted, Aubrey did not.

[J.D.]

Jeff takes his profession so seriously that you know it can't sit too well with him when he's reading the final votes and he can see where it's heading....then, to have to announce a winner that he clearly knows is not deserving. Plus, considering that Jeff has front row seats to everything time and editing doesn't allow us to see, that must only make it worse.

Someone posted a screenshot of Jeff as he's holding up the winning card that read "Michelle," and his expression in the picture said it all. Disappointment. Think of all time, man hours and human commitment the show's crew put into trying to create an awesome season -- just to have it all get thrown into the crapper by a bitter jury.  How frustrating that must be!

[Alapaki]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm finding it odd how much Aubry is being given credit for tbh. I'm not going to argue that the edit didn't strongly implied Aubry was a better strategic player (which remember not everyone has to agree that the most important part of the game is the strategic side) than Michele, but I think the audience is really over-exaggerating what Aubry did in the game. She really didn't play a top tier strategic game at all. She played a good strategic game, good for her. Michele played a good social game and in this particular season that's what it took to win.

I've defended Michele's victory.  But I wouldn't sell short Aubrey's game.

Especially after Neil was evac'd, she was up shit creek without a paddle, and with only Joe as an ally.  There was a dominant alliance that held the SII and which was targeting her.  An alliance dominated by super-aggressive poseur alpha males.  She completely flipped the script on that alliance and became the lead player in a counter alliance that made it to the end.

Given this jury, unfortunately, that was never going to be rewarded.  And even if she slobbered over Scot, Jason, Julia and Debbie I doubt she would've gotten their votes.

[Drogo]

You don't take someone with no enemies to FTC. 

Aubrey had to have known Michele would be a bigger obstacle than Tai and Cydney, who both had the same enemies Aubrey did and no friends Aubrey didn't. 

Michele controlled the game when it really mattered. 

She outlasted the jury, outplayed the F4 to get herself to FTC and the last advantage, and outwitted Aubrey by eliminating her most zealous supporter from the jury instead of buying into A's "Tai is Dangerous" shpiel... Makes her a deserving winner in my book.

[J.D.]

9 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Jeff has known Michele won for like a year, since the night they cast the votes in Cambodia.  The editors knew Michele won when they picked what scenes to show us.  If Jeff was disappointed, he wouldn't show it on the broadcast, if you ask me.  He knows some juries are bitter and that's part of the show, and viewers still keep coming back.  

Maybe the answer is this:  From now on everyone on the jury has to write an essay explaining WHY they voted for the person they chose.  Any essays relating to bitterness and not toward valid points relating to game play, get tossed out as unacceptable.  LOL and winky face .... :D.... ;P

[LanceM]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Exactly. Scot targeted Aubrey the minute she didn't jump at the chance to work with him when he offered it to her. And Jason whined that nobody was "playing" because nobody wanted to flip and work with him. In their minds, if people don't do what they want, they're dumb. Because whatever they do is the right thing so of course smart people would do what they want. Michelle did what they wanted, Aubrey did not.

When did Michele ever do what they wanted?  

[candall]

15 hours ago, Lamima said:

Debbie voted for Michele

What the fuck, Debbie?

[J.D.]

1 minute ago, candall said:

What the fuck, Debbie?

Again, this is where my 'essay' idea would have come in handy.  LOL.

[azshadowwalker]

Listen to Debbie's Jury Speaks video. She makes it pretty clear why she voted for Michele. She speaks about grace and loyalty, both of which she thought Aubry lacked. Like others, she is referring to Michele's cool head vs Aubry's paranoia and neurotic behavior. She does have some very kind things to say about Aubry, though.

 In fact, all of them give their reasons and what they will be looking for in the winner.  While they don't explicitly state who they will vote for, many say who they won't vote for and make it pretty clear who they will. Again, the only one who is the focus of bitterness in those videos is Tai, not Aubry.

Then, we have Joe, who true to form, would only vote for someone who he was allied with, and completely ignored Michele at FTC. That’s not a fucked up way to vote, though, I guess. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[thehepburn]

3 minutes ago, azshadowwalker said:

Listen to Debbie's Jury Speaks video. She makes it pretty clear why she voted for Michele. In fact, all of them give their reasons and what they will be looking for in the winner.  While they don't explicitly state who they will vote for, many say who they won't vote for and make it pretty clear who they will. Again, the only one who is the focus of bitterness in those videos is Tai, not Aubry. Then, we have Joe, who true to form, would only vote for someone who he was allied with, and completely ignored Michele at FTC. That’s not a fucked up way to vote, though, I guess. 

 

I guess we all have a different definition of bitterness. Most of them seem bitter to me.

[Lamima]

In the jury speaks Debbie, Scot, Julia and Jason were all focused on their demise in the game. Where Nick wanted to hear certain things from the F3 (he wanted to hear what they'd say at final TC), the bitter 4 were all like 'when I went to Aubry and she refused to work with me...blah blah blah' or 'I'm going with a loyal person and Aubry said she'd never write my name down but she did...blah blah blah'. They were bitter. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by Lamima

[azshadowwalker]

Yeah, well, too often "bitter" = didn't vote the way I wanted them to, regardless of what the jury actually says or their reasoning. It's right up there with calling someone "entitled" and talking about "vocal fry" to discredit a young woman. They're things that have no meaning to me because they are far too often Internet-speak for "don't like the way things turned out". When it's a Russell Hantz losing, a "bitter jury" is rarely talked about. 

And refusing to talk to or be open to others is a sure way to get a jury who doesn't vote for you. That's why there's a social component to the game. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[RedheadZombie]

I think Aubry's biggest mistake was letting Cydney talk her out of voting for Michelle.  And I wouldn't even say Cydney talked her out of it, it was an ultimatum, which is more like a threat.  Aubry knew Michelle should have gone, just as much as Tai did.  Cydney was more concerned about people not being the boss of her, and couldn't see past that.  Michelle was passive and didn't make Cydney defensive.  I don't see that as a Michelle strength (after all is "harmless" really a strength), it was a Cydney weakness.

I also think Aubry stayed on top of the vote for the most part.  For instance she calmly told Tai he didn't need his idol when even the audience was positive Tai was about to be blindsided.  I didn't see Michelle ever having much feel for how the voting would go, which IMO, means she was usually out of touch with tribal and voting.  Which means, IMO, she didn't have good instincts.  Which for me, and I'm only speaking for myself, means she was a mediocre player at best.

And I don't see where Michelle had to prove she was athletic or intelligent.  The Beauty tribe dominated all of the physical tasks, and were far more athletic and dominating than the brawn tribe.  If anyone had to prove intelligence it was the brawn team.

I think my dissatisfaction with the ending was similar to when a team that's never dominated or threatened a first place win goes on the win The Amazing Race.  It feels almost like a cheat.  I don't want Survivor to telegraph a winner from day one, but it should be edited to where I understand the outcome.  This season I was completely flabbergasted at the results.  And if the brilliant gameplay was there, there's no reason the show wouldn't air that footage.  As happens near the end in Big Brother, the jury actually becomes more interesting, and I wish we would get more of that interaction.  The first two hours dragged on endlessly.  How many people would have preferred to see Joe and Cydney's Ponderosa experience, and a more in depth final tribal?  I sure would. 

I'm taking the rest of my Cydney comments to her thread.

[thehepburn]

5 minutes ago, azshadowwalker said:

Yeah, well, too often "bitter" = didn't vote the way I wanted them to, regardless of what the jury actually says or their reasoning. It's right up there with calling someone "entitled" and talking about "vocal fry" to discredit a young woman. They're things that have no meaning to me because they are far too often Internet-speak for "don't like the way things turned out". When it's a Russell Hantz losing, a "bitter jury" is rarely talked about. 

Or sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

I already expressed in this thread that I had no prob with Debbie's vote bc she said she wasnt voting Aubry MINUTES after her boot. But that doesnt mean she wasnt bitter.

[azshadowwalker]

4 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I think Aubry's biggest mistake was letting Cydney talk her out of voting for Michelle.  And I wouldn't even say Cydney talked her out of it, it was an ultimatum, which is more like a threat.  Aubry knew Michelle should have gone, just as much as Tai did.  Cydney was more concerned about people not being the boss of her, and couldn't see past that.  Michelle was passive and didn't make Cydney defensive.  I don't see that as a Michelle strength (after all is "harmless" really a strength), it was a Cydney weakness.

So, it was a mistake not to get rid of Michele because she was a threat, but Michele was "harmless" and "passive".

[SlackerInc]

On 5/20/2016 at 10:45 AM, Al Herkimer said:

I am mystified by the thought that Michelle is an undeserving winner.  Admittedly, I'm one of those who feels that by definition, the winner "deserves" to win, but I can typically understand that this winner or that one is less admirable, for various reasons.  But usually, it's because the winner in question either did something objectionable or that they didn't do something that they should have.  Michelle showed a very level head for the entire 39 days.  She was never picking fights, and she was very pragmatic about working with anyone, approaching anyone, even if she knew they had been plotting against her.  She never flipped out on the other players, or said something that the viewers at home found offensive.  She was smart about staying on the right side of the numbers, whatever it took.  And she won immunity and reward at crucial times, which is usually one of the most celebrated attributes when discussing winners.

Aubrey played a very good game, too.  There are always very good players who finish in the top four and who could have won if one or two things had gone differently for them.  I can understand people being disappointed by that happening to Aubrey.

But that doesn't take anything away from Michelle's win.

Indeed.  Winning does not necessarily take big moves; in fact, I think the very best players of this game avoid doing so except maybe at the very end.  The best way to play this game, IMO, is to metaphorically play similar to the way one of those final challenges worked: standing on a swaying platform and carefully placing balls and platforms from a distance.  Careful, small, slow movements, while using subtle and almost imperceptible shifts to maintain balance.  Does that make good TV?  I dunno: I enjoyed it but clearly MMV.

On 5/20/2016 at 0:23 PM, azshadowwalker said:

How does being bitter towards Cydney have anything to do with Aubry losing? They cheered for Aubry to beat Cydney. So, I am not getting how their feelings towards another jury member has anything at all to do with the outcome of the game. 

As for Neal, he is still acting like an asshole to Michele on social media. Spur of the moment has nothing to do with it. He's just a petty, bitter asshole. 

Yeah, that sucks.  I defended him early in the game but he proved me wrong.

22 hours ago, Apocalypso said:

I think Aubry was just trying to deflect Michelle's obvious choice that was going to be more damaging.  I wonder, could Michelle decline using the reward altogether and choose to not vote out a jury member?  What if Aubry said,  "I think the boldest move would be to read the reward out loud, get the jury all anxious, and then say to Jeff, 'they all earned it and deserve it and I'm not going to take that away from anybody.  I think my case is strong enough that I don't have to sabotage a vote for somebody else.'   That would really make a statement and could really earn some respect.  I think your stock would go up because they'd appreciate that you saved everybody's participation."  (Oh, I know...desperate and not going to fool anybody.)

It wouldn't fool anyone, but I actually like the idea you are floating for something the actual winner of the challenge might use, depending on the makeup of the jury.  If there were no clear haters, no clear votes for your toughest rival, but a lot of people whose sympathies seem unclear and possibly mutable, this could potentially flatter/sway enough people to get you some votes.  You certainly, at minimum, don't want to vote a juror out who has friends on the jury unless the whole group of friends is clearly against you.

20 hours ago, auntl said:

The way that I see it is that the most important part of the game is jury management. Aubrey failed at this and Michele didn't. I think that whoever wins played the best game. I also think that the jury is entitled to vote for whoever they want to vote for, for whatever reasons they choose. Michele got 5 votes. Aubrey only got 2. I think that it is very clear that Michele deserved her win. There are no rules in Survivor that set the criteria that a jury has to use to pick a winner. It is up to the players to understand their jury and act accordingly. Aubrey didn't and Michele did.

Yes.  I have always defended the notion that jurors should feel free to vote for the person they simply like the best.  I believe Michele played a really good game (I said weeks ago that I thought she was "one of the best players ever", and I've seen every episode of every season except China), but even if she didn't, just being likable is a perfectly good reason to win.  The other players need to identify that and keep you out of the mix by FTC.

There is an imaginable version of this game that has no jury.  It works the same except that you keep having challenges right to the end, perhaps finishing with a firemaking challenge.  That would be a perfectly enjoyable game, and I'd watch it.  But that's not the game we have.

 

19 hours ago, violet and green said:

I honestly believe with that particular jury Michelle could have said "I dunno!" to every question and still won.

I think the Michelle we saw in the edit - droopy in energy, lagging around the camp not doing much of anything helpful, hanging with her head on the shoulder of her vile bestie, Julia, talking in a really dull annoying tinny nasal voice in bland sentences with little interest of note in her observations in her talking heads, having rather pretty eyes, and looking nice in her yellow bikini - was it. I don't think she was doing masterful things they hid from us in the edit. She was a dull girl, and is probably quite a nice girl. I'd say woman but girl seems more fitting.

Being a nice enough person is really not a good enough reason for me to hand someone a million bucks after a bunch of other people have played their guts out for weeks on end, some to the point of being medically evacuated and many with life long scars etc as a result. So freaking disappointing. I feel as if, if I say it enough, it will be undone. If only.... (Can't imagine the if onlys going through Cydney, Aubry, and Tai's heads.) 

I will say, just as I did in Michele's thread, that way back in March I said I thought Michele was playing awesome, and that I was mystified no one on the episode threads or in her own thread were giving her any props.  Then LanceM and peachmangosteen immediately chimed in to say they liked her game a lot too.  And earlier in May some more people joined in the praise.  So to us it was not that "she was doing masterful things they hid from us in the edit" but that she was doing masterful things they did not hide from us in the edit!  I was frustrated and puzzled back then that so few people seemed to see it; now I can only say "I tried to tell ya" and "pay closer attention next time, rather than blaming the editors or the players".  :P 

33 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I think Aubry's biggest mistake was letting Cydney talk her out of voting for Michelle.  And I wouldn't even say Cydney talked her out of it, it was an ultimatum, which is more like a threat.  Aubry knew Michelle should have gone, just as much as Tai did.  Cydney was more concerned about people not being the boss of her, and couldn't see past that.  Michelle was passive and didn't make Cydney defensive.  I don't see that as a Michelle strength (after all is "harmless" really a strength), it was a Cydney weakness.

Really?  Recognizing that one of your allies has a personality that does not take well to being made to feel like she's being bossed is not a strength?  This is exactly the kind of subtle diplomacy and psychological jiu-jitsu I've found impressive about Michele for months now.

Aubry played a really good game.  It was a game that would have won in the majority of seasons (as long as she didn't run into bad luck).  But IMO (and again, I was saying this weeks ago), Michele is one of the best players ever, so bad luck for Aubry to be in the same season and not be able to get rid of her (which she did try to do, as azshadowwalker pointed out just above).

ETA: I agree that it's weird how the women so often look better on the island than at the reunion.  I've seen that line about "makeup gun set to 'whore'" before, but it still makes me laugh.  I always wonder: are they required to submit to that type of makeup?

Edited May 21, 2016 by SlackerInc
Punctuation

[RedheadZombie]

15 minutes ago, azshadowwalker said:

So, it was a mistake not to get rid of Michele because she was a threat, but Michele was "harmless" and "passive".

Yep.  In retrospect, seeing how the jury voted, it was a mistake.  Michelle was a threat because the jury wasn't angry with her.  Has nothing to do with strategy.  On the season that Tony won, Woo was the most likable in the final (except by Spencer, of course).  Luckily for Tony he had a jury with a different mind set.

I'm not going to engage in a back and forth.  You've made your opinions of Michelle being a brilliant winner clear.  I'm stating my own opinion on the situation.  I'm simply saying that for me, I'm not watching the show to see a popularity contest.  The one thing I like about Big Brother is the juries seem to be less bitter - other than when Jordan won.

[RedheadZombie]

47 minutes ago, azshadowwalker said:

Yeah, well, too often "bitter" = didn't vote the way I wanted them to, regardless of what the jury actually says or their reasoning. It's right up there with calling someone "entitled" and talking about "vocal fry" to discredit a young woman. They're things that have no meaning to me because they are far too often Internet-speak for "don't like the way things turned out". When it's a Russell Hantz losing, a "bitter jury" is rarely talked about. 

And refusing to talk to or be open to others is a sure way to get a jury who doesn't vote for you. That's why there's a social component to the game. 

Well, I actually thought Russell Hantz had an extremely bitter jury.  Going only by what I saw at that time, I was shocked that Russell didn't win.  But I think there's a difference between being disliked because you were a better player, and being disliked for being an asshole who destroyed other's belongings.  So Russell is in a class of his own.  And yes, I do often hear the woman who won that season simply road his coattails.  People never saw how she was able to handle Russell, and her impact on the game.

I'm not going to interpret what posters are saying as code for something else.  That's not what we're supposed to be doing.  I'm not here to question posters motives.  But I am irritated that some of this is turning into the "pretty girl burden", which is right up there with the white man's burden.  To claim being attractive holds you back in life is laughable.  You can find hundreds of studies that conclude attractive people are thought of as more likable, are more likely to be hired, and are given the benefit of the doubt in any situation.  Plus, there were three young women in that final four, so I don't see questioning Michelle's win as attempting to discredit a young woman.  I can twist that and say all supporters of Michelle are attempting to discredit Aubry.  That there's an ugly agenda out there to discredit smart young women.

And while there are a few comments here and there about Michelle's voice, visit Debbie's thread and see the absolutely horrific things said about her appearance.  How many pictures there are of the Wicked Witch.  And there weren't many people objecting to a middle aged woman being reduced to her looks, or how wrong it was to pick on her appearance, or discussion of the middle-aged woman's burden.  There were so many other things that could have been legitimately used to criticize her, but her looks and her body were the primary focus.

Edited May 21, 2016 by RedheadZombie
grammar

[Shimmergloom]

36 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

But I am irritated that some of this is turning into the "pretty girl burden", which is right up there with the white man's burden.  To claim being attractive holds you back in life is laughable. 

I don't we're talking life here, just survivor.  I do think there's some merit to the idea that being labeled a beauty in terms of survivor(normally I have little sympathy for the plight of the beautiful) makes it more difficult to prove yourself than a brawn or a brain.  I think since we know that Cydney was really smart as well and that Michelle still beat them both handily in 2 puzzle challenges and that Aubry almost blew a puzzle cause of a mistake when she had a huge lead, that we can say that Michelle did more than just win cause she was pretty.  I mean in the last challenge, Cydney and Aubry had just come off of back to back food reward challenges and Michelle won the final two challenges and won the puzzle after being way behind in the physical part of it(which makes sense as they had 2 food rewards to build up energy).  But even after all that, she's being accuse of just winning cause she was pretty. 

Which actually is a huge insult to Aubry, cause it's not like she was not attractive.

[simplyme]

I guess my question would be with the exception of putting Michele on the jury (and thus risking an F3 of Jason, Tai, and herself), did Aubry ever truly have a chance with this jury?  Tai didn't.

It's conceivable to me that had Michele been voted out, Joe gets medevaced, and Jason wins IC, we end up with Jason, Aubry, and Tai as F3 and it's even possible Jason wins.  (I figure he has Scot, Julia, and probably Michele at least.)  Do we really think Jason played a good social game?

[JenMcSnark]

I'm just now watching because I was spoiled and really feel Michelle is not deserving.  Especially in this episode, I just love Cydney and Aubrey.  In fact, I would watch a show with them.  And Cydney's mom is just beautiful as well. 

[simplyme]

44 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

But even after all that, she's being accuse of just winning cause she was pretty. 

Some people also think the moon landing was faked.  I think Michele showed she was quite intelligent and fairly athletic.  She also played an excellent social game, BUT I don't know how much of that was luck and other players.  I think that's my biggest hang up with anyone raving about her as a social game mastermind.  Yes, she played it almost perfectly, but she also didn't have to make tough decisions that put her in people's sights.  Other people didn't really have that option.  I don't mean to take away from her win (though I realize I probably am), but rather look at what impacted others.  Luck and circumstances and coping are all part of Survivor.

Edited May 21, 2016 by simplyme
Brain fart

[thehepburn]

Listened to Bounty's retrospective on ATF podcast. All the ppl speaking are obnoxious and unbearable but just a FYI - said that Michele "got more credit than she deserved" from the jury looking back now. 

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Michelle did what they wanted, Aubrey did not.

Michele in no way shape or form did what Scot/Jason wanted. But it does appear she might have made them think she did/would, which is simply good gameplay.

6 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I've defended Michele's victory.  But I wouldn't sell short Aubrey's game.

I'm not selling it short at all. I think she played the best strategic game this season. But I believe the greatness of it is being a bit exaggerated in general online. She was not a strategic mastermind. She didn't have complete control of the game. She made some mistakes, a few of which were devastating to her chances of winning,

6 hours ago, Drogo said:

Michele controlled the game when it really mattered. 

Yep. And I can definitely understand how it can be frustrating when someone comes from behind in the final minutes to overtake the person who was dominating. 

In general I just don't think Aubry played that much better of a game overall than Michele did. They just played such different games that it's really almost impossible to even say who played better objectively. It all depends on what aspects of the game you value. I personally value both the strategic and social aspects pretty evenly so that's probably why they seem pretty even to me.

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, simplyme said:

It's conceivable to me that had Michele been voted out, Joe gets medevaced, and Jason wins IC, we end up with Jason, Aubry, and Tai as F3 and it's even possible Jason wins.  (I figure he has Scot, Julia, and probably Michele at least.)  Do we really think Jason played a good social game?

I don't think it's a lock that Michelle votes for Jason, I think she didn't like Jason/Scot and didn't ally with them when she had multiple chances to.  I think if the finals are Aubry, Tai, Jason, then Aubry it's likely that Tai wins that reward(since he was close behind Michelle in reality) and he probably removes Neil or Scot.  Probably Scot, cause Scot would have been harder on him.  So then Aubry has Joe and Nick just like now and Neil who is not removed.  Jason has Julia only.   Leaving Cydney who likely leans Aubrey and Michelle and Debbie.  I don't think Debbie likes Jason enough to vote for him either.  So both Michelle and Debbie could have voted for Tai or Aubry.  I think this scenario is in favor of Aubry who should have at least 4 votes locked up and because Jason did not play a social game to form any bonds with Debbie or Michelle and it wouldn't matter if Debbie/Michelle voted for Tai or Aubry. 

[LanceM]

37 minutes ago, thehepburn said:

Listened to Bounty's retrospective on ATF podcast. All the ppl speaking are obnoxious and unbearable but just a FYI - said that Michele "got more credit than she deserved" from the jury looking back now. 

This happens a lot when the players get back and actually see what we have been seeing (confessionals, other people's conversations), etc.  Unfortunately for Aubry that is not how her game came across at the time they were all playing.

(I would also add that Jason and Aubry are friends post game so I'd factor that into his comments as well)

[violet and green]

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

And while there are a few comments here and there about Michelle's voice, visit Debbie's thread and see the absolutely horrific things said about her appearance.  How many pictures there are of the Wicked Witch.  And there weren't many people objecting to a middle aged woman being reduced to her looks, or how wrong it was to pick on her appearance, or discussion of the middle-aged woman's burden.  There were so many other things that could have been legitimately used to criticize her, but her looks and her body were the primary focus.

There was a page of passionate discourse on the topic cut from that thread... which included some of my best work!

I am slowly coming to some peace with Michelle's win - but I have thought to myself, imagine if the woman called Michelle in the final had played the game we saw Michelle played, but was a middle-aged woman. And being older the pretty crying becomes an ugly cryer. How many votes does she get then?

[Shimmergloom]

28 minutes ago, violet and green said:

I am slowly coming to some peace with Michelle's win - but I have thought to myself, imagine if the woman called Michelle in the final had played the game we saw Michelle played, but was a middle-aged woman. And being older the pretty crying becomes an ugly cryer. How many votes does she get then?

I think that's called Season 2 in Australia, when Colby dominated the challenges, but Tina dominated the social game and beat him, despite being 40 and not her 20's.  What most people consider the start of middle age varies from as low as 36 to as high as 45, so I think you can put her in that category.  Especially back in 2001, where I think being early 40's was considered older than early 40's are now.