S02.E06: Best Laid Schemes...

[Athena]

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Jamie and Claire use Claire's medical knowledge to come up with a scheme to stop a deal which could fill the war chest; Claire learns Jamie has gone back on his word.

This is the Book Talk thread where the spoiled gather. Spoilers for all the books are allowed in this thread. Unspoiled posters, your thread is here.

[Dust Bunny]

Well, that was devastating. 

Stepping away from that ending for a moment: I will say it really felt like this was Book!Jamie. All the interactions, from beautiful pillow talk, to the silent exchange with Murtagh, to dissembling with the Comte and BPC, and just hanging out with Fergus. I loved the shots of those two riding together. And like someone had posted before (if not here, then I read it somewhere else), I loved that Sam uses the ball of rags to strengthen his hand, as found in the book. That was his idea, apparently. I noticed in this episode it was in his right hand in the breakfast exchange with Fergus. Maybe a little Easter egg for the book readers. I love when his hair is tied back, too. It's long enough that it's starting to look a bit fetching, and makes it feel very 18th century.

They managed the Fergus part well. We didn't have to see anything, but in some ways it was even more chilling to end with that look on Fergus' face. The only thing I can't figure out is that those preview shots of Jamie punching BJR didn't happen. I have to assume that's from maybe the next episode as a flash-back - or - maybe it will be from Jamie's perspective, a la "Reckonings".

Sam and Cait are just magic together. That duel scene - the way they were looking at each other. Those two could easily make a silent movie love story - no dialogue needed. I might have to watch this episode with the sound muted, and just see what it's like.

Random question, but they specifically mentioned nettles. Are we going to get the nettles scene after Jamie gets released from the Bastille? I never really expected that to make it to the show.

I've kind of come to love the servants. Suzette and Magnus are especially great. This is one thing I appreciate about the series - people come and go (like in life), but they all are valued as individuals.

It's amazing what this cast and crew can make together. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by Dust Bunny

[metaphor]

Great episode! I wasn't sure what to expect after the episode-ending fight last week. The foot massage surprised me a bit, but it led to that speech by Jamie to Claire explaining why he really withdrew from the duel with Black Jack, which was excellent. Really moving. Wonderful job by Sam. 

The discussion on drawing and quartering was sufficiently creepy, and I enjoyed the scene between Master Raymond and Claire. 

I thought it was great that Jamie and Claire each came to realize that it was time to tell Murtagh everything. I liked that the brief montage ended with Jamie explaining things to Murtagh in Gaelic. And on a shallower note, Jamie looked quite dashing in the subsequent scene.

Good conversation between Claire and Murtagh, ending with him squeezing her hand -- it reminded me of their scene in the cave in 1x14, which I loved then.

And those last ten minutes. Despite having a general idea of what happens in the book, my heart was in my throat. The duel scene was so effectively acted and directed, I thought. Can't wait till the next episode, which I think Caitriona has tagged as her favorite of the season. 

[IntrovertGal]

Oh man, that was truly upsetting. Even knowing what was about to happen, I was still completely tense and anxious during the last ten minutes and hoping for a different outcome. Poor Claire! Poor Jamie! Poor Fergus! :(

I agree with DustBunny, the Fergus part was really well done. It was great to only see the red cloak as a hint and then the scene ended with Fergus' face. I hope the show leaves it at that, we really do not need any gruesome flashbacks. It was also nice to see some more Jamie and Fergus bonding scenes beforehand so that the ending would feel even more like a punch to the stomach.

I loved that Jamie left Claire a note just like in the book.

Randall asking Jamie how Claire forgave him, that was not in the books, was it? If it was, I don't remember it. I thought it was good that the writers included that line because it showed again how obsessed Randall is with Jamie. The shot of Jamie dealing Randall that castrating blow was very satisfying on so many levels.

Also, in the books Claire did not call out to Jamie after the duel right?

Next week's episode is gonna be so sad but I'm looking forward to the Master Raymond scene. I wonder if next week's episode will be the last episode in France, although they would have to cram a lot of stuff in it if it were.

[morgan]

I was only able to watch an abbreviated episode  this morning, ff thru the Comte stuff and will watch that tonight.  I have a question for those who have read the book recently though, when the executioner was talking about the crackdown of those who practice dark arts, in the book wasn't it that he was going off to England to execute a traitor?  I thought that scene was more about the fear of what could happen to Jamie?

The Fergus stuff was handled better than I had hoped for.  I didn't expect to see anything but expected a scream.  Which I suppose we could still get if they do show us the fight in room scene.  Sigh.  

The duel was so good!  My heart was in my throat too.  Very well done and I loved Jack asking how she forgave him.  I do think that was in the book somewhere if not at the duel.  Was it him asking Claire it in Scotland when he runs into her?  I am so ready for the BJR story line to be done already.  I guess it really isn't because we still have the Mary/Alex/Jack stuff to go. 

Murtagh was wonderful...the vulnerability when he hinted did she know what happened to him.

Love the servants.

The only thing that I have seen so far that felt off is when Jamie was talking at first about Claire owing him lives too.  He acted like he was just thinking and came up with it.  I always saw Jamie as far more canny and two steps ahead of Claire here and had thought of it even as they were fighting.  Maybe in my rush trying to watch some of the ep before I have to get going today I missed something there.  Either way I can't wait to watch the whole ep tonight.  And again am interested in mr.morgan (non reader) and his take on the episode.  Although I am getting the impression that he is tapped out until Scotland.

One last thought.  I guess no Dougal in France? Had been looking forward to him.

[Clawdette]

And, a collective "Yes!" rose up throughout the land the moment the sword pierced the crotch. 

[WatchrTina]

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Random question, but they specifically mentioned nettles. Are we going to get the nettles scene after Jamie gets released from the Bastille? I never really expected that to make it to the show.

I really hope not.  It's my least favorite scene in the whole book.

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am interested in mr.morgan (non reader) and his take on the episode.

So am I!  I would really like to hear from more readers who watch with non-readers.  I find myself constantly wondering what this show must be like to someone who does not have as much insight into the characters' motivations as we do.  I hope those of you who watch with unspoiled viewers will share.

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I have a question for those who have read the book recently though, when the executioner was talking about the crackdown of those who practice dark arts, in the book wasn't it that he was going off to England to execute a traitor?  I thought that scene was more about the fear of what could happen to Jamie?

That's my memory as well and I was disconcerted by the change.  I was equally disconcerted by Murtagh using the word "witch" in the courtyard conversation (after carefully having the whole conversation in Gaelic).  It does feel like the viewer is being led to be concerned about Claire possibly being tried for witchcraft again.  Perhaps this is to ramp up the personal risk she takes when she appeals to King Louis and it is revealed that he knows she is "La Dame Blanche."

I really just popped in to say how relieved I am by the choice they made with regard to the attack on Fergus.  I was genuinely worried about the backlash if they showed ANYTHING and I'd prefer it if Romann did not have to act in a scene depicting the sexual assault of a child.  Peter Jackson took the same approach in "The Lovely Bones" -- leaving the attack off-screen and implied -- and some people criticized him for it but he said, in the end, he simply did not want to put his very young leading lady through the experience of simulated rape.

Off to watch a second time -- hopefully with the book-vs-show filter turned off this time.

Edited May 14, 2016 by WatchrTina

[morgan]

Yes!  I hated that Murtagh used the word, witch, too!  

[takingthestone]

I'll be honest, I will lose a lot of respect for Ron Moore et al if they actually show a child being raped on television.  The point of it can be made through allusion (what we saw here and maybe Jamie telling Claire why he had to duel Randall) and I can imagine no justification for actually showing it.  Not to mention it would be irresponsible and, I think, borderline abusive to make a child actor portray that.  I'm assuming they have enough sense not to do that though.

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

I like that the episode begins with tension still in the air – as indicated by Jamie’s furrowed brow and the fact that he doesn't know that Claire has left the house.  I inferred that they did not share a bed that night, nor did they speak in the morning.  But I liked the touch of Claire telling Magnus to send in a good breakfast – a quiet signal to Jamie that she is thinking of him.  It also serves the purpose of reminding us who Magnus is, since he plays a key role in this episode.

“Your mind changes like a woman in flux.”  Oh snap!  You know Murtagh is angry to say a thing like that.

Okay my first reaction to Jamie massaging Claire’s feet was: “Well damn, that was a pretty quick turn-around.”  After all, the last time we saw them together was when he said, “Do not. Touch me.” But then I realized that he had an agenda.  He was thinking about it in the very first scene of the episode and he’s had a full day to mull it over.  I think he makes this gesture and is actively trying to heal the breach between them because he wants her to make the promise about going back to Frank if everything goes to hell.  It shows Jamie to be a bit canny and I like that.  It also makes me really want a foot rub.

Jamie is looking particularly fetching in the scene where they test the fauxpox.  Kilt, bare knees, peek-a-boo bare chest, the look on his face as things progress – Mon Dieu that man is adorable. Fergus is similarly adorable in that scene.  The scene provides a much-needed moment of levity in the episode since things take a serious turn pretty quickly thereafter.

The intimacy between Jamie & Claire in the episode is wonderfully played.  First the foot rub, then that scene where he returns from Le Harve and falls into bed and into her embrace – sigh.  And then there is the talking-to-the-baby-bump scene.  Gosh, this show knows how to work my heart-strings.

I loved the scenes with Jamie & Fergus riding together.  It took me out of the show a bit because I kept imagining how much fun Sam & Romann had filming those scenes. (At least I hope in was Romann – you never do see his face – it might have been a small stuntwoman.)

Jamie and Le Comte St. Germain snarking at each other in alternating French and English will NEVER get old.  Those two – that is a pairing made of win.  And no one can shout quite as dramatically as a Frenchman.  Stanley Weber.  Mon Dieu!  Whatamanwhatamanwhatamanwhatamightyfineman.

The obliviousness of Louise’s guests was very well played.  It does a good job reinforcing Claire’s “outsider” status.

Somebody is totally going to make a .gif of Jamie and Le Comte jumping to their feet after Jamie “insults” St. Germain by referring to him as “monsieur.”  That is such a great alpha-males-in-conflict moment.

“Mark me.  I will take my own life if I am forced to live in god-forsaken Poland.”  Okay that made me laugh.  His mother was Polish, right?

I loved Magnus and the footmen and the look they give Claire after she returns from the hospital  -- so full of foreboding!

That slide across the cobblestones in the carriage – freaking sweet!  That stunt was like something out of Top Gear.  I hope that gets discussed in the podcast.

 

THE BAD

I hate Murtagh’s use of the word “witch.”  Jamie should not have stood for it.  I think it was a mistake by the writers to use it.

Okay this is nit-picky but the actress who plays Suzette seems to not know what to do with her hands so she grabs her skirts and lifts them whenever she makes an entrance.  This made sense when Mrs. Fitz did it as she made her way across a muddy and uneven courtyard to greet the returning travelers in ep 102.  It makes NO sense for Suzette to do it while walking around a fine home.

Similarity, Suzette telling Murtagh (in front of Jamie & Claire) “Let me get you undressed right away” with a coquettish smile just feels completely inappropriate.  I feel sorry for that actress.  I feel like she’s been written and directly badly. 

Okay it was sweet and a nice shout-out to the book fans to have Fergus say he would go with Jamie to Madam Elise’s “To guard your right” because that is what BookIan did for Jamie when they fought together.  But BookJamie fights left-handed – that’s why Ian stands on this right.  TVJamie is right-handed, so that line made no sense.

 

THE UGLY

Did Murtagh just murder an innocent wagon driver during the wine theft?  If so, that’s pretty callous writing.  Especially since Le Comte was sitting right next to the driver.  Shoot HIM next time Murtagh – he at least deserves it for trying to poison Claire!

Hey Prince Charles.  Stop. Touching. Jamie.

That damned red coat and all that it implied – including all that happened in that room after that door slammed shut.  I’m glad it wasn’t shown but nothing is uglier than that.

The line, “All I could do is wait to see which of my men would die – Jamie or Frank.”  The camera focusing on JACK whens she says “Frank” made me cringe.

That ending.

 

OTHER

I have very mixed feelings the decision to change the purpose of M. Foret’s description of drawing and quartering.  IIRC in the book someone (the Duke?) has M. Foret pay a visit to Claire to warn her of the fate that can befall a traitor.  The visit is clearly a warning to Jamie and Claire that they should distance themselves from Prince Charles.  In the show he warns her that it is a fate that can befall practitioners of the dark arts.  First of all, I don’t think that is historically accurate.  I thought drawing and quartering (after first being half-hanged) was a very specific penalty for traitors only– a way to frighten men who might otherwise think that dying by hanging for a just cause would be worth the risk.  Furthermore, upon first viewing, I couldn’t figure out what M. Foret hoped to accomplish by telling Claire that story.  It wasn’t until the 3rd viewing that I realized he specifically tells Claire that “Perhaps our friend M. Raymond would be better company” so he was pretty clear in signaling to Claire that she needs to go to Mr. Raymond right away and repeat what he has said.  I missed all that in the first viewing and I’m sure I’m not the only one. I’m guessing the writers wanted to amp of the sense of menace to Claire in this episode so that when she later begs a favor of the King, the discovery that he knows her to be “La Dame Blanche” will alarm unspoiled viewers.

On the other hand – I do love what the writers have done to amp up the tension by  establishing the possibility of Claire being accused as a witch (again) while simultaneously diminishing Claire’s support system.  In this episode Murtagh leaves town, Claire quarrels (somewhat) with Louise, M. Raymond indicates that he will leave town, M. Foret offers Claire a warning but is clearly not someone she can turn to for further aid if she is accused of witchcraft, and by the end of the episode, Jamie is in the hands of the authorities and we (the viewers) are fairly sure that something very bad has befallen Fergus.  Just like in ep 205 they start the episode off with things being fairly calm and even stage a quick reconciliation between Claire & Jamie before turning up the tension click by click by click until the ending of this episode is even worse for our darling couple than the last episode (and THAT is saying something.)

Edited May 15, 2016 by WatchrTina

[oppec0]

Non book reader here. Since the season started with Claire going back to Frank, we know his lineage is safe. Is Claire off on her dates for when Mary conceives? Will BJR still be able father children? Or, was he involved in Mary's rape?

[Starla]

My stomach was in knots when Fergus walked into that room at the brothel. Even now, with all that happened with Jamie and Claire, all I can think of is "Who is taking care of Fergus?" I can't remember from the books where he stayed during the days and weeks after this event, while Claire and Jamie were dealing with their own issues. At the house with the servants, or at the brothel? I am so worried about his well being. 

Like others have mentioned, Murtagh's use of the word "witch" was jarring. Maybe I misheard it, but the way he said it made me think Jamie told him Claire was a witch, especially when he didn't call Murtagh out on using the word. I doubt it will lead to anything but it seems misleading.

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Non book reader here. Since the season started with Claire going back to Frank, we know his lineage is safe. Is Claire off on her dates for when Mary conceives? Will BJR still be able father children? Or, was he involved in Mary's rape?

Alex Randall is the father, but he is dying of tuberculosis so he asks Jack to marry Mary so she will not be left alone and penniless with a child on the way.

Edited May 15, 2016 by kariyaki
spoiler tags not necessary in Book Talk thread

[oppec0]

16 hours ago, Starla said:

Alex Randall is the father, but he is dying of tuberculosis so he asks Jack to marry Mary so she will not be left alone and penniless with a child on the way.

Interesting that Frank looks so much BJR. Also, Claire should be thrilled that Frank isn't a direct descendant of such a horrible man.

[AheadofStraight]

I really loved the ending sequence. I did miss Claire finding Jamie's hair and getting to see Jamie with short hair. Still,so well done and J&C shouting to each other was tearin' my guts out, ye ken?

My ovaries exploded when Jamie was talking to the baby. I'd also kill for a Jamie Fraser foot rub.

@WatchrTina - I have several unspoiled friends and they are loving the show and seem to be following along just fine...

 

ETA: I also hated Claire saying, "Lie to me once in awhile." Secrets, no lies!!

Edited May 15, 2016 by AheadofStraight

[nodorothyparker]

So much of this episode felt like you were watching them set up a bunch of anvils to start dropping them one by one.  My nonbook reader husband who's only halfheartedly watching this after last year's rapefest nearly chased him off guessed on his own that things don't end well with the baby and that Black Jack was going to do something horrible to Fergus.

I don't like the change of focus for Monsieur Forez's monologue about drawing and quartering either.  I get why they did it to ramp up the concern about black magic and whether Claire might get ensnared in another witch hunt heading into the star chamber scene, but it doesn't really work for me.  One, it's an historically accurate punishment for treason not witchcraft and two, in the book that was the moment that there was no more getting around just how high the stakes were for what Claire and Jamie were trying to do.   Directing his words at Jamie as he does in the book, Forez was warning him what a dangerous game he was playing and that he wasn't completely flying under everybody's radar.

I'm also annoyed that the show seems to be following Gabaldon's lead of not showing us the big conversations.  What is the point of even telling Murtagh about Claire's Big Secret if you're going to do it from a distance through a window and then have him have almost no reaction to it?  I realized in watching it that I've long very badly wanted even just one person to react to the time travel reveal by asking "Are you barking mad?  You really believe this?"  I had high hopes for that someone to be Murtagh, but no, he's going to just blithely accept it and the only reaction we get at all is that odd scene of him writing out every 20th century year Claire was alive.

The Comte and Jamie sniping at each other bilingually is all kinds of hot, although I was really really hoping the Comte would at least temporarily lose his terrible wig in the scuffle.  Jamie and Fergus were adorable in the breakfast scene together in a way that really allowed me to see the adoptive father-son relationship they'll have in the books.  Prince Charles' foppish whining that "I will take my own life if I am forced to live in god-forsaken Poland" made my half-Polish husband snort.  As in every episode, it's simply confounding that people who actually spent any time around this man would follow him to their eventual deaths.

I'm eternally grateful that for once the show managed to find some restraint and not force us to watch Black Jack hurt Fergus.  

Edited May 15, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[riverheightsnancy]

Non-book reader here: So Fergus was definitely raped by Jack? Did Jack also torture him like Jamie? 

[nodorothyparker]

In the books, yes, Jack did rape and brand him.  Jamie walked in on it and broke it up, which led to the duel.

[Archery]

The "I'm from the future/my wife's from the future" conversation would be too long to show credibly. Having it occur in time lapse montage compresses the million questions, awkward silences, and stumbling for words that a conversation like that would sound like. I also had no problem with Murtagh using the word witch.  It may have been the only Gaelic word that applied, so he used it in English.  

[Tara Ariano]

Here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

On Outlander, Scheming Can Only Get The Frasers So Far

When things finally start looking up for Claire and Jamie, the universe smacks them back down.

[Squirrely]

16 hours ago, Starla said:

My stomach was in knots when Fergus walked into that room at the brothel. Even now, with all that happened with Jamie and Claire, all I can think of is "Who is taking care of Fergus?" I can't remember from the books where he stayed during the days and weeks after this event, while Claire and Jamie were dealing with their own issues. At the house with the servants, or at the brothel? I am so worried about his well being. 

Alex Randall is the father, but he is dying of tuberculosis so he asks Jack to marry Mary so she will not be left alone and penniless with a child on the way.

In the book he accompanies Claire to Louise's country home. I haven't read book 2 in eons but I remember Claire's observation that Fergus was very depressed over not having Jamie around. 

 

I was also disappointed that Forez' description of drawing and quartering was directed toward Master Raymond and not Jamie. Otherwise, this was another golden episode for me. I love this season so much! 

Edited May 15, 2016 by kariyaki
spoiler tags not necessary in Book Talk thread

[oppec0]

Why wouldn't Jamie have killed Jack right on the spot? You see the man you hate raping a young boy; you'd think all reason would go out the window.

[kattahj]

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Non-book reader here: So Fergus was definitely raped by Jack? Did Jack also torture him like Jamie? 

The scene plays out a little differently in the book, because Jack basically buys a session with Fergus from Madame Elise, and Fergus gives up the struggle pretty quickly because he's been in that situation before and figures it can be over with before Jamie's finished with his business. So it's a pretty brutal rape, but because Jack has to answer to Madame Elise, not as brutal as his rape of Jamie.
The whole thing is immensely messed up, and I don't know if the show will go with that background for Fergus or not, or whether I'd want them to. It's a part of his character as written, but it's also a part I wouldn't mind sparing him...

[asp]

This review addresses most of my qualms about this episode

https://drunklander.tumblr.com/post/144376086150/drunjder-yells-about-outlander

[Honeycrisp]

Spoiler

 

Isn't it a little presumptuous for Jamie & Claire to think Frank is sitting around in the future waiting for Claire return and rebuffing all others? Couldn't he at least maybe be having some consolation sex with someone that is verging on something else? Something that might make him less inclined to take back a wife telling a crazy story.You know that expression men don't mourn they replace?

 Wouldn't the most halfway probable way of explaining how Claire knows the future is because she's gifted with the sight and can see the future? Then and now people on average would probably be more inclined to believe that over a person from the future going back physically into the past.

 

I don't think there will be anything shown about what happened to Fergus in the brothel. There are regulations concerning the sort of scenes minors can be put in and rules about how minors can be depicted onscreen. I doubt the prostitute part of his past will be brought up.

[Andorra]

I think we will learn why Jamie broke his promise, so the rape will at least be mentioned. IAlso there has been a preview where we can see Jamie rushing into the room and starting to knock down BJR who's fly is open, so there also will be a flashback. Hopefully it will be clear, but no really shown. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Andorra

[Archery]

It isn't necessary for M. Forez to be telling the truth about the punishment for practicing the dark arts.  He's the executioner, is she really going to argue with him?  His point is, go tell your friend M. Raymond he is in danger.  D&Q makes a better visual to get her to do it.

I love the 18c version of squealing tires.

[Zella]

6 hours ago, Honeycrisp said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Isn't it a little presumptuous for Jamie & Claire to think Frank is sitting around in the future waiting for Claire return and rebuffing all others? Couldn't he at least maybe be having some consolation sex with someone that is verging on something else? Something that might make him less inclined to take back a wife telling a crazy story.You know that expression men don't mourn they replace?

I've thought this too (and consider it extremely presumptuous)--and so far you're the only person I've come across who has mentioned this potential problem in relation to their plan. 

[IntrovertGal]

Okay so I just re-read the Bois de Boulogne chapter in DiA because I was curious. The Randall asking Jamie about how Claire forgave him line really was not in the book, so it was added by the show writers. In fact, there is no dialogue between Jamie and BJR in the book at all. I'm glad that the show added that line because it brought Jamie right back to his most shameful memory (in his eyes) of what happened at Wentworth. And maybe it was the sheer fury brought up by Randall's comment that allowed Jamie to get the upper hand in the duel (in the show at least).

Also, in the book Jamie does call Claire's name but Claire doesn't. She tries to speak his name but cannot because she is too far gone with pain and shock.

[Squirrely]

45 minutes ago, Zella said:

I've thought this too (and consider it extremely presumptuous)--and so far you're the only person I've come across who has mentioned this potential problem in relation to their plan. 

I think that it doesn't so much matter what Frank is doing. Even if he had remarried and moved on, he would have been a decent enough man to help Claire and see her settled safely should she return. I know he gets a bum rap from a lot of book readers, but I give him a lot of credit. At the bottom of it all, he is an honorable man.

[WatchrTina]

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The whole thing is immensely messed up, and I don't know if the show will go with that background for Fergus or not

The show has already gone "off-book" with regard to Fergus' background.  When Jamie chases him through the streets in a prior episode and they have their first conversation Fergus misunderstands when Jamie says he is "interested" in him.  Fergus declares "I am not a whore!"  I assume that was done to heighten the viewers' outrage over whatever Jack does or attempts to do to Fergus.  I'm hoping the show will be satisfied with Jack branding Fergus as a bit of sick "foreplay" and then Jamie puts a stop to it, but we'll just have to wait and see. There will definitely be a flashback (we saw a bit of it in the previews for the next episode) so one way or another, we'll know.

I assumed Jack threw in that "How could she forgive you" line in an attempt to enrage Jamie and throw him off his game.  The man is a master of psychological torture so I took that as him simply deploying one of his favorite tools.  

I also agree with others who have said there were WAY too many bystanders at that duel.  Wasn't the whole point of doing it there that it was secluded and one would have privacy?  But I suppose the noise would attract people and their presence could also explain the arrival of the gendarmes -- someone ran off to raise the alarm when it was clear that this fight was to the death.

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Isn't it a little presumptuous for Jamie & Claire to think Frank is sitting around in the future waiting for Claire return and rebuffing all others?

I'm sure Jamie has simply considered what HE would do.  If his wife -- if Claire -- vanished for three years and then came back, would he look after her?  Yes he would.  He'd do it even if he had remarried. He'd do it even if Claire brought with her another man's child. That's who Jamie is and that's the strength of his love for Claire.  We see him, in future books, continue to look after Laoghaire and her children even though it's a financial burden and even though he never loved Laoghaire.  He does it to fulfill his marriage vows and because he cares about her children and -- on some level -- he even cares about her.  So Jamie just assumes that Frank will act in the same honorable way toward Claire.  Even if Frank has moved on and is married to and in love with someone else, Jamie assumes he'd offer his assistance and protection to Claire because of the love they once shared.  As for Claire agreeing -- she's not thinking about Frank at all in that moment.  She's just telling Jamie what he wants to hear, all the while thinking there is NO WAY she is ever going to leave him.  I don't believe her promise for minute.  I don't think she's being false -- I just think that the outcome Jamie is suggesting is simply too horrible for her to even consider as a real possibility.

Edited May 15, 2016 by WatchrTina

[morgan]

IntrovertGal, I think that bit with BJR asking Jamie  how Claire forgave him happened later in DIA.  If I remember correctly it takes place with Claire though, not Jamie, back in Scotland.  I should pull my book out but I'm trying to stay away till seasons end.  

[chocolatetruffle]

This episode worked best for me when J & C, Murtaugh and LeCompte were onscreen together.  That face off between Jamie and LeCompte was epic!  Now, I love everything about wee Fergus, but it seemed like his scenes in this episode were there as big anvils: something BAD is going to happen to Fergus.  His relationship to J & C (especially to Jamie) should have been established organically right from the first episode he's in.  I don't even think he was in last week's episode (except asleep).  By this time, the relationships between Jamie, Claire, Murtaugh and Fergus should be well-established as a family.  We should have seen a strong father/son bond between Fergus & Jamie before now. 

Other things that seemed off: Louise's party scene (why was this needed?); Fergus and Jamie riding to Le Havre went on too long, especially since there was no dialogue; and as mentioned above, Monsier Forez (I totally thought he was threatening Claire).  Also, I kept wondering where was Fergus after the attack?  No one at home seemed to be aware that he was involved.  I suppose he could have been dropped off at L'Hopital if we was injured, but it just seemed strange to leave it the way they did.  We don't know if he was hurt, raped or killed.

Having said that, I did mostly enjoy this episode, especially that last scene, which was brilliant.  (And I'm fanwanking that M. LeCompte was having Jamie followed and it was he who alerted the Gendarmes.)

[WatchrTina]

Quote

I'm fanwanking that M. LeCompte was having Jamie followed and it was he who alerted the Gendarmes

Oooh, I LIKE that.  After all, he was the one who alerted the Gendarmes when the fight broke out after the dinner party -- it would be just like him (though, ironically, the arrival of the Gendarmes could have resulted in saving Jamie's life, had the fight been going against him at that point.)

[chocolatetruffle]

Oh yeah, and one more thing that kind of bothered me was when Jamie made Claire promise to go back to Frank if things went bad w/ Culloden.  I kept thinking, that's all well & good, but what about the baby?  What if it can't go through?  Is Claire supposed to leave it? J&C don't know that Claire is going to miscarry, so it seemed like it should have at least been mentioned.

Edited May 15, 2016 by chocolatetruffle

[Zella]

30 minutes ago, Squirrely said:

I think that it doesn't so much matter what Frank is doing. Even if he had remarried and moved on, he would have been a decent enough man to help Claire and see her settled safely should she return. I know he gets a bum rap from a lot of book readers, but I give him a lot of credit. At the bottom of it all, he is an honorable man.

I like Frank too, both book and show Frank. I think it bothers me because it just seems so entitled--"Hey, you know who will help us out? Frank! Never mind his thoughts on raising another man's child or what he's doing with his life! Just as long as Claire gets what she wants, everybody else's lives and feelings be damned" 

 

I exaggerate a bit, but one thing that bothers me about Claire and Jamie is they often strike me as having extreme tunnel vision when it comes to decisions. I have a hard time sympathizing when their plans blow up in their faces for that reason.

[morgan]

I think the one thing that the party that Louise had showed was how out of place and ineffectual Jamie and Claire, and what they are attempting to do, is.  It is ramping that up, and the break with France seems imminent.  

[chocolatetruffle]

3 minutes ago, morgan said:

I think the one thing that the party that Louise had showed was how out of place and ineffectual Jamie and Claire, and what they are attempting to do, is.  It is ramping that up, and the break with France seems imminent.  

That's a very valid interpretation. It just seemed heavy-handed and out of place to me.  But that's my feeling overall about this episode: a lot of really great scenes, but no through-line to connect them all together.  This epi just set up a lot of what is to come. 

[WatchrTina]

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that's my feeling overall about this episode: a lot of really great scenes, but no through-line to connect them all together.

That comment was echoed during the story analysis by The Scot and the Sassenach.  He said he often cannot remember when one episode ends and another begins in season 2 but he has a very clear memory of the start and stop points for the season 1 episodes.  I agree that this season is much less episodic than season 1, where each episode had a clear story arc.  I think season 2 is one that will lend itself more to binge-watching -- at least during the French section.  They've done the best they can to turn to book into TV episodes but I'm re-reading the book right now and it is very much a series of short vignettes spread over a relatively long period of time.  It works fine in the book (at least I like it) but it must have been really difficult to adapt and I think that's why we're seeing reactions like the one above.

[vesperholly]

I feel like we were missing one huge connecting scene - what prompted Jamie to break his word to Claire and duel Randall. Sure Claire herself doesn't know why, but why leave the audience in the dark? As an unsullied, I completely missed the red coat hint and was unable to extrapolate what was going to happened to Fergus. Spare us more rape scenes, but they could have shown Jamie bursting in on the aftermath, with Randall branding Fergus, and then cut to the woods.

I also really disliked the dramatized soapy treatment of Jamie telling Murtagh about Claire, with the silent talking and music, the cuts back and forth to Claire pacing in the window. I think a cold cut right to Murtagh going, "Wha tha HELL?" would've been more in keeping with his character and the show.

[GHScorpiosRule]

First: Jamie on a horsieeee!!!!!!!!!

I loved the moments between Jamie, Claire and Wee Fergus while Claire was "infecting" Jamie with the smallpox. His playing with the rags, Claire telling him to pay attention. I just ADORE the actor who is playing Wee Fergus. If I ever do a re-read, his face will be implanted in my brain!

Jamie looked so, so, DELISH, during the scene after the "highway jacking" from his bruised face, but most especially, his mussed up hair, tied loosely in a club.

I, too, wish Claire had seen the locks of Jamie's hair before she saw his note.

I was so, so tense during that duel. And when Jamie's broadword pierced Black Jack's raping cock, I cheered. Not ashamed to admit it or to see the bluid gushing out...but dammit, my heart was in my throat watching Claire collapse and the look in her eyes as she screamed Jamie's name, and then whispered it, and watching Jamie scream her name...and when it went all inaudible, I swear, that took me straight to Last of the Mohicans, seeing DanielFucking!Day-Lewis screaming "Cora!!!!" with the sound muted. I think I started breathing once the credits rolled. And YES! Interviews from Sam and Cait and Tobias after the episode.

So gonna watch it again.

Oh, and so, so, glad that Fergus's rape was left out. I had no problem with how the show handled it. And I'm hoping with the flashback, we won't see anything. Just maybe the door being slammed open and seeing anger/shock/fury on Jamie's face before he throws Black Jack down and starts his beat down of him.

But yes, I could have done without the ladies' gossip fest. That time could have been spent on more Jamie. More Fergus. And add me to the list of those who think WHY would anyone follow this peacocked dandy Charles Stewart. 

I did love how Jamie said to Fergus in the beginning..."Lad..." in that warning tone, and Wee Fergus was like, "wot?"

Edited May 15, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[Jodithgrace]

27 minutes ago, vesperholly said:

 

I feel like we were missing one huge connecting scene - what prompted Jamie to break his word to Claire and duel Randall. Sure Claire herself doesn't know why, but why leave the audience in the dark?

 

That scene is left out of the book, as well. The readers have no idea why Jamie suddenly broke his word to Claire. We find out at the same time she does. Which is fitting since the book is told from her POV. 

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I like Frank too, both book and show Frank. I think it bothers me because it just seems so entitled--"Hey, you know who will help us out? Frank! Never mind his thoughts on raising another man's child or what he's doing with his life! Just as long as Claire gets what she wants, everybody else's lives and feelings be damned" 

 

I exaggerate a bit, but one thing that bothers me about Claire and Jamie is they often strike me as having extreme tunnel vision when it comes to decisions. I have a hard time sympathizing when their plans blow up in their faces for that reason.

The nonbook reader husband guy has made the exact same point in discussing this.  He knows now where some of these stories are going if not the specifics because hey, he asked.  

From his perspective, they're basically asking Frank to accept that the whole time travel thing happened to explain Claire's absence in the first place and then in one fell swoop oh yeah, now that I'm back you won't mind dropping whatever else you might have been up to these past three years to raise the child of the guy I've been sleeping with and chose over you this whole time, right?  We knew you'd be fine with it.  But hey I thought about you from time to time.  Sure, we know that Jamie is approaching it from the standpoint of this is just what an honorable man does, but Jamie's not the time traveler here.  He doesn't really know anything at all about what is considered an honorable man in Frank's time or even anything about Frank as a person beyond what bits Claire has shared.  So it's a huge leap from a very limited perspective.

Interestingly, when this exact subject is raised in DOA when discussing Bree and Roger and the future Jem, Jamie does realize that it wasn't such a cut and dried issue and that maybe he isn't quite as sure he would have accepted it without question or resentment.

Edited May 15, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Thalia]

My main memory of Book!Murtagh is him following Claire around at the hospital, and then the scene at the end where he witnesses the signing of the deed.  I definitely don't remember J/C telling him the truth of her origins.  Am I right that this was a deviation from the book?   

I can't believe I am beginning to crush on Murtugh of all people.  I thought he and Jamie both looked so tall, straight and handsome in that scene where they were circling each other in the courtyard.  No wonder Suzette is always so cheerful.  

[WatchrTina]

Quote

Interestingly, when this exact subject is raised in DOA when discussing Bree and Roger and the future Jem

Yikes. Your post is making me wonder what would be worse -- being asked to accept and raise a child fathered on your wife by a rapist or one fathered by a lover she went with willingly.  Frank does the latter.  Roger, for a long time, thinks he may be doing the former.  And Jamie asks Roger for advice in case he finds himself in the same boat following Claire's rape.  Damn . . . this book series . . . it puts its characters through the mill.

But as for Jamie in DIA and his demanding that promise from Claire -- that she will go back to Frank if everything goes to hell -- I think it's an indication of his fear that nothing they are doing is going to be effective.  Look what happened when he introduced Duverney, the Finance Minister, to Prince Charles.  It made the invasion MORE likely -- the opposite of what he was trying to do.  I think Jamie's demand of that promise from Claire simply reinforces for the viewer the dismay we saw from him following the scene with Duverney and the Prince.  He's beginning to realize that all their efforts may be for naught and Claire's version of the future may be inescapable.

Quote

I definitely don't remember J/C telling him the truth of her origins.  Am I right that this was a deviation from the book?  

I don't remember it either but others have pointed out that at the end of Outlander Jamie instructs Claire to go with Murtagh (leaving Jamie to die at the Abby) telling her that Murtagh will take her to the stones so that she can go back to her old life.  (I haven't looked it up but I think I recall that too.)  This strongly implies that Jamie has explained who / what Claire is to Murtagh in an unseen conversation.  If you have read "The Exile" (Diana's graphic novelization of the first half of Outlander) and if you consider than canon, Murtagh actually knew that Claire was something "other" long before Jamie did.

Edited May 15, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Nidratime]

Quote

From his perspective, they're basically asking Frank to accept that the whole time travel thing happened to explain Claire's absence in the first place and then in one fell swoop oh yeah, now that I'm back you won't mind dropping whatever else you might have been up to these past three years to raise the child of the guy I've been sleeping with and chose over you this whole time, right?  We knew you'd be fine with it.

Claire may have promised Jamie that she would go back in order to seek Frank's "protection" -- possibly to stop Jamie from worrying -- but as we know Claire goes back and lays it out for Frank giving him an out. I don't think she ever begs him or pressures him to accept her and the baby. I got the feeling she was quite willing, no matter how difficult it would be, to live her life as a single mother. Frank is the one who insists they stay together.

[nodorothyparker]

True.  Claire does offer him an out when it all actually comes to fruition.  But at the moment, the conversation is "oh of course Frank will take you back.  And the baby too."  There's no real consideration that Frank may have moved on or that he might be less than thrilled to spend the rest of his life raising the proof that his wife chose another man over him.  They're not really thinking of Frank as a person with his own free will in any of it.

I'm inclined to agree with everyone that this is all such a hypothetical for Claire at this point that she's just saying what she knows Jamie needs to hear, that he's at least thought about a Plan B for her should everything go to hell.  She's not even remotely considering a return trip through the stones as an option yet, let alone seriously contemplating how she would navigate it all with Frank. 

[Archery]

I don't think that Jamie is all, Of course Frank will take you back, even if that is what he himself would do (which he would).  For him, Frank and 1948 is all theoretical -- he believes Claire but he doesn't own the concrete idea of what 1948 means. (We see this also with Murtagh, who has to write out the years on paper to wrap his mind around the concept.)  So he's saying, if anything happens to me, take the baby back to Frank (meaning "the future" and the life that you know there).  And the concept of "Frank"/the future is enough to get him to promise not to kill BJR.  So, no, I don't think he is being presumptuous; he is he can't even imagine "the future" beyond the concept of Frank, which is all that he knows actually exists there.   

[Zella]

I can certainly see why they may see the idea of Frank in the future as more of an abstract concept and also that Claire is just agreeing for Jamie's sake, but I think it stands out to me for two reasons--one being that it just never even comes up as a "Hey, what if this idea isn't feasible?". I kind of tend to go overboard with planning things--it's just the way I am--so it's hard for me to fathom a decision-making process that doesn't even try to consider alternative points of view and also backup plans if something doesn't work out. I can't imagine dealing with something like time travel and not trying to consider variables!

And the other reason it stands out to me is I see it as a pattern of them being dismissive of other people in the grand scheme of their plots and plans. I don't think Jamie and Claire are bad people, but I am really bothered by their approach to making decisions, and the issue with Frank in the future is just a very overt example of what they do that supremely irritates me. And both of those reasons are why I usually don't feel bad for them when things blow up in their faces. I'm pretty sure that's not the audience reaction the showrunners are hoping for--and I say this as someone who usually is a fan of television characters who do a lot worse things than Claire and Jamie--but it's been a recurring issue for me from the first season, and I feel like it's even more of a problem for this second season. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Zella
adding final two sentences

[peacefrog]

My first thoughts were that I really liked this episode. In fact I like most of them and I'm enjoying the season so far considering the source. I think Jamie is really getting fleshed out, his characterization is what I liked most in these 6 episodes. There was a lot to get through and while it felt rushed and certain points did not get a good amount to just be, i.e. "Don't touch me!"fight to foot rub., it entertained me.

However, I'm just underwhelmed. There is nothing that stands out as horrible, but nothing so great either. On one hand I wish they would stray from the books. Like a lot, change storylines, add a character, anything! The changes they have made are minor, the end result is the same. Then on the other hand I'm disappointed that Dougal was a no show. 

The nixed dream sequence could have been fun. I see that most think it's silly but I think it would have been cool. There is maybe only one more time we can have Sam, Cait and Tobias in one scene and anytime we have the 3 together it just feels like Outlander. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

On Outlander, Scheming Can Only Get The Frasers So Far

When things finally start looking up for Claire and Jamie, the universe smacks them back down.