S02.E06: Best Laid Schemes...

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie and Claire use Claire's medical knowledge to come up with a scheme to stop a deal which could fill the war chest; Claire learns Jamie has gone back on his word.

This the No Book Talk episode thread. Book discussion of any kind including "It was different in the books" is not allowed. Posting or disliking by spoiled posters is not allowed. For more spoiled discussion, see the book talk thread.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Poor Fergus!

Jamie didn't succeed in killing Randall, but that injury may still prevent Frank from being born. The sad thing is that Randall enjoys violence so much that he will still get pleasure from hurting others, even if he can't rape them.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Jamie didn't succeed in killing Randall, but that injury may still prevent Frank from being born. The sad thing is that Randall enjoys violence so much that he will still get pleasure from hurting others, even if he can't rape them.

Otoh, I wonder how much 'pleasure'  Randall will be able to get even from flogging someone now, with that injury - without the sexual aspect of it.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Interesting that this was the second episode in a row with no nudity.  That must be a record for Outlander.

Speculation on what happened to Fergus?  It wasn't specifically shown.  So, could have been rape.  Could have been being beaten or otherwise physically harmed - I mean, I'm guessing from the coat hanging up and the subsequent duel that it was BJR in the room and he did catch Fergus stealing.  Was BJ in the act of cutting off Fergus' hand?

Quite a large assembly for a spur of the moment duel, I thought.  So much for the gendarmes not patrolling that area of woods, huh?  Guess both Jamie and BJR are off to the Bastille.

Where's Murtaugh?  Just laying low after the wine heist?

You, I feel sorry for the Comte.  He doesn't care about the Jacobite rebellion one way or another, and they are financially ruining him.  He's simply collateral damage.  You don't win being either a friend or an enemy of Claire's.

Jamie was awfully nice to be rubbing Claire's feet after she made him call off the duel.  Hell, he might actually be a Saint.

I'm glad he set her straight on the 'he owed her a life' business though.  That part of why he agreed made absolutely no sense to me though.  I would never have been able to make the promise Claire did.  

What was the point of the executioner detailing how a proper drawing and quartering is done to Claire - a Lady, a woman of noble birth (well, for all he knows)?  And a pregnant Lady at that.  Highly inappropriate dude.  Did they just want to gross us out or is this something we might see in the future on the show?  So many of the scenes in this season, not just this episode, Do Not Make Sense.  Maybe it's fan service.  But, imo, you shouldn't have to read the books, whether it's this show or the Harry Potter movies, for example, to understand what's going on.  Otherwise, you're just not telling the story very well.

[Marvin]

I hope Fergus wasn't killed or has had something too bad happen to him - i like that cheeky lad ! 

I think this was the best episode of this season so far. I was gutted it ended on a cliffhanger !

[Primetimer]

When things finally start looking up for Claire and Jamie, the universe smacks them back down.

View the full article

[LoveLeigh]

I am all confused. In episode 1, Claire returns to her present day and asks about the outcome of the Battle of Culloden. She is told the British won. Then later in that episode she tells Frank she is pregnant and he is angry and she is hardly showing any weight gain from the baby.

So in tonight's episode she is almost ready to give birth and if she returns to Frank at a later time after that when the Battle is about to begin, how can she be at the beginning of her pregnancy? 

 

I suppose somebody in the Book Talk thread could answer that, but my question belongs in this thread. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by DakotaLavender

[Wouldofshouldof]

I'm not spoiled - but I think it's clear it's another baby.

[LoveLeigh]

It's a second child? That was fast. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

Not so fast given that we don't know how long she was with Jamie before she returned to Frank.  We have yet to see that.

ETA: When they started scheming to stop Prince Charles, it was a year before the uprising.  When she popped back into the present, she asked who won the Battle of Culloden.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Wouldofshouldof
to clarify timeline

[Squirrely]

6 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

What was the point of the executioner detailing how a proper drawing and quartering is done to Claire - a Lady, a woman of noble birth (well, for all he knows)?  And a pregnant Lady at that.  Highly inappropriate dude.  Did they just want to gross us out or is this something we might see in the future on the show?  So many of the scenes in this season, not just this episode, Do Not Make Sense.  Maybe it's fan service.  But, imo, you shouldn't have to read the books, whether it's this show or the Harry Potter movies, for example, to understand what's going on.  Otherwise, you're just not telling the story very well.

He spoke of their "friend," Master Raymond. He was telling Claire that the king was cracking down on sorcerers, and what could happen. Claire then immediately went to Raymond and urged him to leave Paris. 

Murtaugh is abroad (can't remember what country Jamie said) selling the stolen booze. 

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

It's a second child? That was fast. 

I'm not trying to be a dick, but after the first episode of this season, the discussion focused around that Claire into 1948 was on a second child. I don't see this episode as unexpected in that regard. Because we know Challenge to Female Character on Television is Miscarriage. I mean, it's that or rape, and the show has covered the bases.

Welp! The future is writ in sand amiright?! 

[Daisy]

38 minutes ago, Squirrely said:

He spoke of their "friend," Master Raymond. He was telling Claire that the king was cracking down on sorcerers, and what could happen. Claire then immediately went to Raymond and urged him to leave Paris. 

Murtaugh is abroad (can't remember what country Jamie said) selling the stolen booze. 

Portugal!

I have to say holy macaroni, that was an episode. I have to say St. Germaine wasn't born yesterday, like he still suspects Jamie, even though Jamie "saved" him. he knows something is up, that's for darned sure.. I have to say. Whilst I always love the Jamie - Murtaugh is also gaining some massive love from this end. and I love his WWMD: just kill everyone. But he was so sweet when he was just writing down all the years, and trying to be like "so you lived through all of these?" and then simply stated, that he couldn't imagine such a burden. 

I am scared for Fergus. Something had to have gone down to make Jamie break his word, so I hope that kid didn't do something dim-witted. But curious that BJR is in a bordello. And curiouser that Jamie literally pricked the prick. so I think my theory still stands. BJR isn't the direct great*whatever father of Frank. but it's Alex but he must die from his illness and BJR takes over somehow. 

Please be okay little Bairn. 

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I'm not trying to be a dick, but after the first episode of this season, the discussion focused around that Claire into 1948 was on a second child.

I have not read the books and this thread is for those who have not read the books. So for those of us who have not read the books, how were we supposed to know that in 1948 in episode 1 of this season, Claire was pregnant with her second child? I will reread the discussion in that thread. 

That's the confusing part. She is full blown pregnant in the flashbacks and after she passed through the stones into her present day, she does not look pregnant, so it appeared she may have had the baby back in the past. Well, maybe when she says she is pregnant and it is at the time of the Battle of Culloden, it's a valid conclusion that it would have to be another baby. 

[Andorra]

She said in the first episode that she was married to Jamie for two and a half year. 

When they arrive in France it is still 1744.

The battle of Culloden was in April 1746.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Andorra

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

I am scared for Fergus. Something had to have gone down to make Jamie break his word, so I hope that kid didn't do something dim-witted. But curious that BJR is in a bordello.

The first dim witted thing that Fergus did was wander into one of the bedrooms and steal something. That was definitely all on Fergus. The fact that he did it in a room where BJR happened to be seeing one of the prostitutes was just bad luck. Whatever BJR did to punish Fergus is what tipped Jamie into duelling with BJR. You know he got all fired up because he saw BJR hurting a kid.

Edited May 15, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[nara]

14 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Interesting that this was the second episode in a row with no nudity.  That must be a record for Outlander.

Speculation on what happened to Fergus?  It wasn't specifically shown.  So, could have been rape.  Could have been being beaten or otherwise physically harmed - I mean, I'm guessing from the coat hanging up and the subsequent duel that it was BJR in the room and he did catch Fergus stealing.  Was BJ in the act of cutting off Fergus' hand?

Quite a large assembly for a spur of the moment duel, I thought.  So much for the gendarmes not patrolling that area of woods, huh?  Guess both Jamie and BJR are off to the Bastille.

Where's Murtaugh?  Just laying low after the wine heist?

You, I feel sorry for the Comte.  He doesn't care about the Jacobite rebellion one way or another, and they are financially ruining him.  He's simply collateral damage.  You don't win being either a friend or an enemy of Claire's.

Jamie was awfully nice to be rubbing Claire's feet after she made him call off the duel.  Hell, he might actually be a Saint.

I'm glad he set her straight on the 'he owed her a life' business though.  That part of why he agreed made absolutely no sense to me though.  I would never have been able to make the promise Claire did.  

What was the point of the executioner detailing how a proper drawing and quartering is done to Claire - a Lady, a woman of noble birth (well, for all he knows)?  And a pregnant Lady at that.  Highly inappropriate dude.  Did they just want to gross us out or is this something we might see in the future on the show?  So many of the scenes in this season, not just this episode, Do Not Make Sense.  Maybe it's fan service.  But, imo, you shouldn't have to read the books, whether it's this show or the Harry Potter movies, for example, to understand what's going on.  Otherwise, you're just not telling the story very well.

1. I can definitely live without the nudity,  because I like the affection between them more, like when Jamie rubs her feet or kisses her belly.

2. I wonder if BJR would rape Fergus.   Yes he's horrible and raped Jamie and would have raped Jenny and Claire,  but surely pedophilia is a different mental state of mind...

3. I wonder if someone tipped off the gendarmes, like St. Germain perhaps? 

4. The fact that your can feel sympathy for St Germain speaks well to your personality, but keep in mind that he was willing to risk smallpox coming into the harbor and infecting other innocent people and he poisoned a pregnant woman.  He might also be behind Mary's rape, though that is not proven.

5. I can understand why Jamie wants Frank alive so that Claire can go back to him, if necessary.  From what he's heard of Frank, they guy actually loved Claire and vice versa. He would want Claire to be safe and happy.  However, I am not sure why he thinks the child would be able to go with her... Based on Claire's size, the rising would likely happen after she gives birth, so she and the child would be 2 separate bodies.

6. The purpose of the drawing and quartering story was to scare Claire--which it did.  I was afraid she would get caught with Maitre Raymond a la Geillis Duncan.  I suspect he may be sentenced to that fate later in he season.

 

My observations:

• Loved this episode! End at the right moment, IMO, because I can't wait for next week!
• I'm glad that Jamie and Claire did not stay angry for long. The show is much better when they are making googly eyes at each other.
• I thought Murtagh's disgust for Jamie "chickening out " of the duel was characteristic and I'm glad they brought him in the loop. 
• Interesting that Claire has not learned anything about keeping herself safe, rather than running into danger. It make me bang my head against a wall, but it's also nice that she is consistently courageous.
• I like the relationship between Fergus and Jamie,  but I think they take too many risks with his safety-- sending him to poison St. Germain's men and sending him alone through Paris at night to deliver messages. 
• I felt a little sad for BPC. Yes, he's a doofus, but he was raised to believe in his family's rights and has put so much pressure on himself to bring them back to England and Scotland. To be thwarted time after time must be depressing. Plus, Louise picked her husband over him, and BPC must at least suspect the child she is carrying was his.
• Loved the scene with ladies discusing the fact that the most awful thing about the poverty of the people was that they had to witness it. Something tells me that those ladies will meet the guillotine in the future.

[ganesh]

I haven't read the books either. After the first episode many of the posters reasoned out that Claire had to be in her second pregnancy when she returned to 1948. I don't think this is a huge leap of logic and it seems to be a fair inference based on just actually watching the show. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, nara said:

I wonder if BJR would rape Fergus.   Yes he's horrible and raped Jamie and would have raped Jenny and Claire,  but surely pedophilia is a different mental state of mind...

Well, he seems to be an equal opportunity rapist.  I really don't know what mental state of mind in which to put BJR, so on the one hand it seems plausible.

3 hours ago, nara said:

I wonder if someone tipped off the gendarmes, like St. Germain perhaps? 

But would have had to been someone who knew it was happening.  Someone at the brothel perhaps?  Not sure if St. Germain was there when Jamie obviously caught BJR doing something he shouldn't.

3 hours ago, nara said:

keep in mind that he was willing to risk smallpox coming into the harbor and infecting other innocent people and he poisoned a pregnant woman.  He might also be behind Mary's rape, though that is not proven.

Is the small pox thing any worse than other noble's treatment of the lower classes during that time?  Think of the ladies in Louise's parlor and how they were completely uncaring about the poor, as you mentioned.  

We also don't know that he was behind Claire's poisoning.  It could have been anyone - could have been the Duke.  Master Raymond said (iirc) that he sold the cascara to a servant he did not recognize.  

3 hours ago, nara said:

However, I am not sure why he thinks the child would be able to go with her... Based on Claire's size, the rising would likely happen after she gives birth, so she and the child would be 2 separate bodies.

This might be a moot point after this episode, since it looked like she miscarried.  But at the time he said it, expecting the child to survive, good point.  Since, didn't he touch the stones last season and nothing happened to him?

3 hours ago, nara said:

The purpose of the drawing and quartering story was to scare Claire--which it did.  I was afraid she would get caught with Maitre Raymond a la Geillis Duncan.  

Actually, I thought for sure he was setting Claire up to get caught when he suggested Raymond might be better company.

3 hours ago, nara said:

I like the relationship between Fergus and Jamie,  but I think they take too many risks with his safety-- sending him to poison St. Germain's men and sending him alone through Paris at night to deliver messages. 

Right?  The only thing I could think of that might assuage my (and Jamie's) fear was that Fergus was used to it.  He was a pickpocket when Jamie met him and also used to running through the streets at night.  So to Fergus, it was not such a big deal.  

3 hours ago, nara said:

Loved the scene with ladies discusing the fact that the most awful thing about the poverty of the people was that they had to witness it. Something tells me that those ladies will meet the guillotine in the future.

This is 1744-45?  The French Revolution started 1789 I think?  I have no idea when the bulk of executions of  the nobility happened either.  So 40-45 years in the future yet.  Not sure those ladies would still be alive.  But yeah, I was thinking along the same lines - it's attitudes like that which led to the Revolution, ladies.  

[tennisgurl]

Man, the expression on Claire's face during the ladies gossip session just screamed "See this? THIS is whats going to lead to people rolling out the guillotines".

Poor Fergus. I am pretty convinced that Black Jack, worst person ever, did either rape or attempt to rape him. Jack tried to rape Claire after talking to her in the woods for two seconds, and yeah he is a kid, but I do not think Jack cares. He is such a hideous sadist, age or gender mean nothing to him. Plus, I feel like that is what would make Jaime quickest to pull out his sword, even after his promise to Claire. Death by sword is too good for Jack. 

Have I mentioned lately how much I love Murtaugh? I loved his reaction to the truth, and I love how all of his plans are basically "Yeah all this subterfuge is interesting and all, but what if we just STABBED EVERYONE?". 

Loved this episode. 

[HumblePi]

The more I watch of this series, the less I like Jamie. He frequents a bar with prostitutes for what reason again? I forgot. And, he breaks his promise to Claire not to kill Randall, what's up with that? Are we to assume now that Black Jack Randall was skewered in his testicles that he won't be fathering any children in the future? I figured that Claire couldn't be having that baby because when she returns to England she's pregnant but not showing yet. If she was miscarrying at the end of that scene I think she would be far enough along to deliver a live baby.

[ganesh]

I'm glad he finally knows the deal with Claire now too.

[Daisy]

1 minute ago, HumblePi said:

The more I watch of this series, the less I like Jamie. He frequents a bar with prostitutes for what reason again? I forgot. And, he breaks his promise to Claire not to kill Randall, what's up with that? Are we to assume now that Black Jack Randall was skewered in his testicles that he won't be fathering any children in the future? I figured that Claire couldn't be having that baby because when she returns to England she's pregnant but not showing yet. If she was miscarrying at the end of that scene I think she would be far enough along to deliver a live baby.

 

because thats where Prince Charles is. So a lot of the Jacobite stuff is happening there. 

[ganesh]

I also assume that we will find out the reason for the duel next week, since it was the final scene of this episode. Charlie is *always* in the brothel, and Jamie and Claire discussed it at length in the hilarious "69" scene in the prior episode. It seemed quite clear (heh) that where he went, Jamie had to follow so he could get in with Charlie and earn his trust. In fact, there was a scene where he snapped at the madame because he was sick of the prostitutes draping themselves all over him. 

The show isn't above criticism, but it has played fair with the viewers from the start. One could argue about the overuse of rape or the all drinking while pregnant (which I wonder if affected the pregnancy), and I'm sure everyone is sick and tired my gripe. But I can't say any characters acted OOC serve the plot. Much of what has unfolded many of us have reasoned out and inferred from what we've seen. Like this second pregnancy issue. I'm not a tv rewatcher because there's so much original content out there, but just watching and carefully paying attention, I haven't really tripped up on any plot holes. 

[psychoticstate]

Did Claire racing away from Chez Frasier somehow notify the King's men about the duel?  They did arrive after her. 

I haven't read the books so this part confuses me.  At the end of the first season, Claire whispered to BJR his date of death (which we did not get to hear.)   So did that date correspond with the trampling at the jail?  If so, Claire should have been beyond shocked to hear that BJR was still alive.  And wouldn't she have told Jamie that BJR was supposed to have died that day in the jail?   If that date did not correspond, why would Claire think BJR died?  And wouldn't she have been worried about Frank's future then?  She never mentioned it, although she's continuously thinking about Frank's future now.   One way or the other, Claire has changed the future for the Randall family.

Obviously with the stab wound to the 'nads, BJR is not having any children with Mary.  So either Alex is the descendant (and Claire should be desperately trying to keep him alive) or Mary ends up pregnant from the rape.

[qtpye]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Man, the expression on Claire's face during the ladies gossip session just screamed "See this? THIS is whats going to lead to people rolling out the guillotines".

I know the French aristocracy was awful, but is anyone else getting tired of the way the French women are being portrayed?  It's like sex, sex, giggle, sex sex, giggle, sex, sex, and sex...laugh.  There is not even any sympathy for the whores in the brothel, who probably are working there against their will.

I mean some of these women were cultured and had parlors for the greatest minds of the time.  There is nothing wrong with enjoying sex, but besides the nun, all the French women seem to be obsessed with it (including the servant girl).

Also there is absolutely no sophistication to the matter.  All the ladies are acting like grade schoolers that just figured out what "pee pees" can be used for.

Edited May 16, 2016 by qtpye

[HumblePi]

I sort of smiled when Claire had the precisely correct combination herbals and medicinal oils in order to replicate the symptoms of smallpox. She told Murtagh that she was 20 years old in 1939. The education to become a nurse in England was 3 years of training which would make her 17 years old when she studied to become a nurse. She must have been a brilliant student because she not only managed to become a highly skilled nurse and diagnostician, she was able to become extremely educated and proficient as a chemist, botanist and pharmacologist. 

Claire sipping on a glass of sherry didn't really bother me because back when I had my children the effect of wine on a growing fetus wasn't yet understood. I remember drinking wine on Friday nights during poker games with my pregnant sisters and brothers in law and I don't think my two boys brains were damaged from that wine although while they were growing up I did wonder sometime, but that was just normal teenager stupidity.

[ganesh]

I always thought Claire was lying to BJR about the date of his death just to mess with him. 

[abbey]

I always thought that Claire might have picked up some of her knowledge on plants and their curative (or harmful) properties during her travels with Uncle Lamb.  They would have spent a fair amount of time in rather isolated locations where proper medical care was not readily available.  So some of the care would have required local healers to use the available plants.   Presumably she learned from the local healers. 

[Hybiscus]

1 hour ago, abbey said:

I always thought that Claire might have picked up some of her knowledge on plants and their curative (or harmful) properties during her travels with Uncle Lamb.  They would have spent a fair amount of time in rather isolated locations where proper medical care was not readily available.  So some of the care would have required local healers to use the available plants.   Presumably she learned from the local healers. 

Claire states in the first episode of the series that after WWII, she took up an interest in plants & herbs and their healing properties.  It had become a hobby for her, just as Frank's had become his ancestry, which is why she knew so much about BJR.

[terrymct]

I was surprised that Claire didn't explain the implications of his killing Black Jack more fully. If Black Jack doesn't have a child with Mary, then Frank won't be born and Claire won't meet and marry him. That means that she won't go on a vacation in Scotland where he conveniently researches his family tree. She won't end up looking for plants up by the standing stones. She won't fall through the stones and she won't meet HIM. That would have been a more convincing argument than just asking Jamie to help save her first husband's life because Jamie owes her. All that said, I have a suspicion that BJR may not end up being Frank's ancestor despite their identical looks. There could be some shenanigans related to BJR now being stabs in the crotch. Somehow, Mary could end up married to him yet impregnated by his brother Alex. Sounds far fetched, but it's parallel to Dougal and Collum.

[TV Anonymous]

Wow, that Prince Charlie is a piece of work, is he not? It is such a shame that he is immortalized as a style of Scottish formal and elegant dress.

Was hanged, drawn and quartered not reserved for high treason? The punishment for 'practicing dark arts' (witchcraft) was burning at stake, I thought.

It is quite remarkable that even when Comte St-Germain was angry, he kept on addressing Jamie (Lord Broch Tuaragh as far as he concerned) as 'vous', instead of 'tu'.

I think I am have enough watching Claire bringing 1945 values and norms to 1745. Can she not try to be tactful for a while? Are they not serving a bigger purpose?

The series' fondness of sword fighting amuses me since in Turn, less than 40 years in the future, men fight mostly with firearms.

[taanja]

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 9:12 PM, DakotaLavender said:

I am all confused. In episode 1, Claire returns to her present day and asks about the outcome of the Battle of Culloden. She is told the British won. Then later in that episode she tells Frank she is pregnant and he is angry and she is hardly showing any weight gain from the baby.

So in tonight's episode she is almost ready to give birth and if she returns to Frank at a later time after that when the Battle is about to begin, how can she be at the beginning of her pregnancy? 

 

I suppose somebody in the Book Talk thread could answer that, but my question belongs in this thread. 

I thought I had it figured out -- when Claire goes back to her own time she goes back to the beginning of her pregnancy. Kind of timey whimey Doctor Who-like time travel. She travels forward to the future but at the same time backward physically. Hell!!! it made sense in my head. But after this episode? That was a lot of blood dripping down her legs. Like deathly a lot.

I think the baby dies? or...as I speculated earlier... for whatever reason Jamie and Claire leave it somewhere for safe keeping -- Like with Aunt Jenny-- and shit happens and they never get back to get the baby. and then Culloden happens and Claire goes back to the future. maybe pregnant with a second child? So siblings raised across time and space?

anyway. I like all the intrigue and the costumes and such more than the romance. I am curious as to how this will all play out.

Oh and I think BJR raped and killed that little boy and that's why Jamie broke his promise.

[ganesh]

I thought we were largely in agreement that Claire is on her second child when she returns to Frank. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Was hanged, drawn and quartered not reserved for high treason? The punishment for 'practicing dark arts' (witchcraft) was burning at stake, I thought.

I think I saw this elsewhere and it rang a bell.  I do believe you are correct about it being a punishment for treason, not witchcraft.  Although burning was the most predominate method of execution for witches, there were some who were merely hanged or beheaded, particularly on the European continent.  

Quote

It is quite remarkable that even when Comte St-Germain was angry, he kept on addressing Jamie (Lord Broch Tuaragh as far as he concerned) as 'vous', instead of 'tu'.

You probably already know this, but for those who don't: 'vous' is the formal word for 'you' in French.  'Tu' is the informal, or familial form, and usually only used between friends (moreso, I think in those days and with the social strata) upon invitation.  Since the Comte and Jamie are not family, or even friends, it is entirely appropriate for him to always use the 'vous' form, and he would know that.  As would Jamie since Jamie also spent a good deal of time in France when he was younger.  

Quote

I think I am have enough watching Claire bringing 1945 values and norms to 1745. Can she not try to be tactful for a while? Are they not serving a bigger purpose?

I am drawing a blank here.  What did she do this time?  It could be that I just don't remember, cause Claire tends to get on my nerves a lot anyway, tbh.

[foxfreakinmulder]

Poor Furgus. I hope BJR didn't kill him or worse rape him. I like the little guy. I do think the worse happened and that's why it wasn't shown. It was almost laughable that Black Jack got stabbed in his junk. Come on, why can't this guy be killed. First the cows failed now Jamie's aim was 2 inches too low. If he had stabbed him in the gut instead he probably would've bleed out or not, he seems to have some really thick plot armor.

I liked this episode a lot. It had a lot going on, I didn't miss the sex, nudity or rapings at all. I was worried that something bad was going to happen during the robbery, and glad it worked out the way it was planned.

Poor Claire, I do think she will lose the baby with all the bleeding and pain she was experiencing. Her baby bump changes from scene to scene. Sometimes she looks like she's 5 to 6 months along and other times 8 to 9 months. I don't know how far a long she's supposed to be.

I still agree with Murtaugh to kill everyone. I thought him being so accepting of the news about Claire and then writing down all the dates was a nice moment. But my favorite scene was his hatred of the clothes he had to wear for the robbery.

[Cdh20]

Jamie talking to the baby bump was the best thing ever, so inevitably it is followed by the worst! 

[foxfreakinmulder]

2 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Jamie talking to the baby bump was the best thing ever, so inevitably it is followed by the worst! 

That was so sweet and then so sad!

I forgot to add how good Jamie looked by the light of the fire when he was rubbing Claire's feet. Swoon!

[Cdh20]

Jamie was smoking hot the whole episode! 

[chaifan]

Can someone explain what happened to the fake smallpox scheme?  Did St. Germain just simply hide the "afflicted" away, so the scheme was foiled?  Because wasn't the original plan that the wine would be on the "afflicted" ship, which would have to be destroyed?  And then they had to switch over to an ambush robbery in the woods?  Sorry, just confused here.

I'm not sure of the intent of the drawn/quartered conversation.  It was a definite warning to Claire, but I can't figure out if the doctor was warning her and Raymond in a good way (be careful and go warn your friend, too) or in a bad way (I'm on to you, witch, and it's just a matter of time before you're in the noose).  

I agree something bad happened, or almost happened, to Fergus at the hand of BJR, which is what drove Jamie over the edge to the duel.  Although my first thought on him stealing at the brothel (before the showed the red coat) was that he'd get caught by St. Germain and rat out Jamie & Claire to free himself. 

[Camera One]

Claire and Jaime immediately being fine after their major fight last episode was plain weird.  

I liked all the preparations for the smallpox plan, but talk about horrible planning.  Shouldn't they have tipped off an inspector to go to the warehouse to find the men with "smallpox"?  I too thought they would be giving them the herbs on the ship.  

Murtaugh is great, but he wasn't well disguised at all.  St. Germain was clearly trying to remember who he was.

I felt a little g***** not to hear how Jaime told Murtaugh about Claire, and the questions he would have.  The show needs to work on payoff.

Did Claire seriously think she would be able to stop the duel?  Think of the baby, especially after experiencing bleeding the night before.

[gingerella]

Well gosh golly geeZUZ, there was a lot happening in this episode wasn't there? And I'm not gonna lie, I am a Viewer of Honor and I always pay my viewing debts so I will just come out with it - I am growing weary AF at Jamie and Claire getting into trouble nearly every goddamned episode. I'm starting to have GoTs flashbacks, and not in a good way! The only thing that's helping steady me is to remember S01 and how much I loved it and that if this Show has survived 5 seasons and soon to be 6 & 7, then it has to be good for the long haul so I'm hanging in, but my last nerves are getting a going over for sure! Now, where to begin...I won't go in order because things happen...

First the funny bits:

I loved Murtagh's fussing over his fancy french couture clothing for the wine heist, he reminded me of the new servant boy in Out of Africa, when Karen forces him to wear white gloves to serve at dinner and he stands there looking at his hands hanging limp off his wrists. Murtagh's reaction to being gussied up french style was so similar and it made me laugh out loud. He is surely a man who will live and die in his kilt, ye ken? I did think it rather beyond reality how familiar the maid is about sex with Murtagh in front of the Lord and Lady though, that doesn't ring very true and felt more like a comedic moment than a period piece, but then again I'm not even sure at this point if this IS a period piece saga or not.

Furgus is adorbs and has totally grown on me. I think he sees a family in Claire and Jamie and isn't stupid, he's been living on the streets his whole young life and he's seen a lot of the horror of poverty and is trying so hard to be like a faithful servant/almost-son to them and he has won me over in doing so. I love how he always says he will watch over and protect his Mistress or the Lord, and he's so earnest in doing so! The scene where he's eyeing the breakfast buffet and Jamie asks if he's hungry and he says, "All the time m'lord!", it's such a warm scene.

The bits that get added to the 'don't make much sense' column:

Claire going to work at the church hospital when she looks like she's about to give birth. Why wouldn't the Mother Superior send her home until after she's given birth? That makes no sense, she is clearly too pregnant to be roaming round Paris like that.

AFTER Claire warns Raymond, she is seen concocting potions to approximate smallpox, but two things here make no sense:

1. How does she have enough potions now that she has no access to Raymond's shop if he flees Paris, and

2. Why would they go to a warehouse and not to the actual SHIP to create this havoc? Did they not think that infecting like, 6 men isn't exactly going to cause the ruckus they require? And why not send a waif to alert the harbor master immediately so he could see these men BEFORE St. G hid them away? This plan makes ZERO effing sense to me, but then again so much of this season isn't making sense so it sort of does make sense in its nonsense!

Claire is told that Jamie is at Madame Elise's yes, yet she goes to the woods outside the city, and presumably that is also Madame Elise's? Yet we always see scenes at ME's as being in the city itself so this makes zero sense. I get that there might be a more discreet outpost of this well known brothel outside the city but it hasn't been made clear to us at all and that sort of detail seems important to a Viewer. Also related to this, Claire sees a little note that presumably Jamie leaves for her that says something like "I'm sorry, I could not keep my promise" or something like that BUT, when he departs for ME's he is going to help BPC by paying his debt for him, that's what he has been summoned there for. So how could he know his going there would result in a duel with BJR?!? This is REALLY a stretch and shitty story telling unless I am missing something big here.

Oh and this WTF pearl of a moment: Jamie says Murtagh is off to Portugal to sell the wine they stole from St. G, but wasn't it Madeira they were buying? And isn't Madeira made IN Portugal? So why would Murtagh go to Portugal to sell wine that was, yanno, MADE in fucking Portugal?!? Jesus H Roosevelt Christ!

The bigger stuff:

Okay, so first, after last episodes closing, where after Claire demands that Jamie wait one year to kill BJR so Frank's future can be assured, and he deservedly tells Claire, "Do NOT touch me!", next we see he is rubbing Claire's feet dutifully by the fire? How did that happen?!? Are we to believe that such a profound argument between these two is magically quelled over night? I think not! Mind you, or should I say 'Mark me, James', I think Jamie's capacity for forgiveness is infinite where Claire is concerned, and we know he's already said he has forgiven her for anything she might ever do, so maybe that's how he moves on seemingly so quickly each time she does something egregious?

When Claire goes to Raymond to tell him to flee the city at once, all I could think of was, 'Nooooo Claire, this is Geillis Duncan redux all over again! Run Claire, Runnnnnn!" I expected the gendarme to bust in at any moment! And of all times, why would they not show Raymond's ever present assistant? Surely she is also in trouble for guilt by association? That said, after Raymond says to Claire that he hopes they will.meet again...in this life...or another...I am sure he is also a Time Traveler like Geillis, but I'm not clear why they both ended up being apothecaries and potions peddlers. I mean, if I fell through the Stones I don't think I'd become an apothecary so I'm wondering if they are the same person, or different people...it's confusing!

The exchange between Jamie and Murtagh about the duel and Murtagh's disgust at what he sees as Jamie not defending his honor was great story telling because it is totally in line with who our mighty Murtagh is, and I loved every bit of that! When Jamie finally tells Murtagh about Claire's story, I wish we could have heard it because it had to be good stuff, but I did appreciate that what little snippets we did hear were all in Gaelic, which makes perfect sense in telling such a fantastical tale. And when we saw Murtagh writing out the dates of Claire's life and then handing them to her, that was such a quite and beautiful scene between those two. I loved how he was willing and open to believing it all, and wanted to know how Culloden turns out, and that he felt empathy for Claire having to carry the burden of knowing how the future is. That was the sort of moment that over rides the silly nonsensical story telling for me this season, and I drank in every bit of it.

The bleeding at the hospital, Mother says it's normal but she looks worried as she walks away from Claire but it seems not good, and I mean, wouldn't Claire know that this is a bad sign? Also, I get the wanting to go find Jamie immediately but she is clearly in distress, pregnancy wise, in the carriage, the whole thing is ridiculous to me.

Now, the duel...If I am to forget about the note Jamie left, which assumes he left knowing he was going to duel BJR despite the Story telling us that he was needed at ME's to help with a situation with BPC refusing to pay his bill, then I'm going to need a little more to go on here, Show! I am left assuming that Fergus wanders into BJRs room, steals a perfume bottle and turns around to find BJR standing there though we don't see him. Next thing we know, Jamie and BJR are dueling a the clearing in the woods with plenty of men standing round watching. All I can think of is the most horrible conclusion, that BJR tried to rape Fergus, and Jamie hears the yelling and comes to his rescue and thus a duel ensues because Jamie is enraged to think that little Fergus might have experienced one iota of torture that Jamie has endured. And so I am asked to suspect belief once again and watch Jamie go to swords without his hand brace which he leaves at home - again a sign that he did NOT expect to duel or he surely would have brought the brace to steady that bad hand, and yet we have that idiotic note to contend with my fellow viewers, grrrrr! - and we see Jamie getting the upper hand nonetheless, bad hand and all. Yes the crowning moment is seeing Jamie stab his sword into BJRs man bits, and I can only think to say, "Way to be a dick Jamie, hahahah..." But seriously, as much as I hope that BJR dies, I am fairly certain he will not because this is another GoTs trope where the evilest of evil villians continues to live despite many attempts on their live, AND because we've had it hammered into our brains that he must live another year and marry Mary before he dies for good. So dear fellow Story travelers, I am left to think that THIS is how Mary and BJR get together. He is maimed for life now, thankfully, and cannot have sex - I hope his dick gets cut off due to gangreen or something as lovely and deserving - and either Alex and Mary marry, and Alex claims the rape baby as his or they have their own kid, which would actually explain the likeness to Frank better, Alex dies of whatever illness he has, and asks BJR to marry Mary to give her a place in life, but they never have sex because he cannot, and the child is assumed to be theirs but it is not. Perhaps it is born AFTER Alex dies and after Mary and BJR marry? That's all I got on that one folks!

As for Claire's pregnancy, I'm sure with the amount of blood we see in the forest, that baby is a goner, while will explain her arriving in 1948 pregnant again but not yet showing, but how will Jamie react and will Claire blame him for her running after him and then losing the baby, even though she knows she was spotting the day before from over doing it at the hospital? I am sure Claire will lash out at Jamie, and I hope he won't be imprisoned too long that he misses out on this bit of story line. I just want BJR dead already, but I'm going to have to wait a year until that happens, so I'm hoping that this one year happens in this season...I hate seeing this character that much.

ETA: The scene with Claire at Louise's was hard to watch, those ladies were pretty awful!

Edited April 10, 2021 by gingerella

[SassAndSnacks]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

I am growing weary AF at Jamie and Claire getting into trouble nearly every goddamned episode.

Yes, it is exhausting.  Paris is exhausting.  

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

The bits that get added to the 'don't make much sense' column:

ALL. OF. THIS.

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

Claire is told that Jamie is at Madame Elise's yes, yet she goes to the woods outside the city, and presumably that is also Madame Elise's? Yet we always see scenes at ME's as being in the city itself so this makes zero sense.

I believe, either Suzette or Magnus tells Claire that Jamie has gone to the Bois de Boulogne, after explaining what happened when Jamie went to ME to clear up BPC's debts.  There's a lot of confusing dialogue in this scene, and I watch while running which isn't the most reliable way to go about these things.  

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

Oh and this WTF pearl of a moment: Jamie says Murtagh is off to Portugal to sell the wine they stole from St. G, but wasn't it Madeira they were buying? And isn't Madeira made IN Portugal? So why would Murtagh go to Portugal to sell wine that was, yanno, MADE in fucking Portugal?!? Jesus H Roosevelt Christ!

And this made me spit coffee on myself.  For real.  Would have made more sense if he had gone back to Scotland, England, anywhere else.  

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

Are we to believe that such a profound argument between these two is magically quelled over night?

 

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Jamie finally tells Murtagh about Claire's story, I wish we could have heard it because it had to be good stuff, but I did appreciate that what little snippets we did hear were all in Gaelic, which makes perfect sense in telling such a fantastical tale.

A major irritation of mine about this entire story is that SO much important dialogue happens "off screen."  We saw it with The Wedding, when we didn't get to hear Jamie tell Claire about his family.  We don't get to hear/see the apparent reconciliation of J&C after the "Don't Touch Me!" and you KNOW that would have been good, because they have such intense, incredible dialogue, and sadly, we don't get to hear Jamie tell Murtaugh about Claire.  I don't even care if it had been in Gaelic, I want to hear what he said and what he told him to explain it (and then have someone translate it for obvs.)

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

wouldn't Claire know that this is a bad sign?

  Speaking from personal experience, you know it is a bad sign and yet you don't want to or can't allow yourself to believe it.  

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

If I am to forget about the note Jamie left, which assumes he left knowing he was going to duel BJR despite the Story telling us that he was needed at ME's to help with a situation with BPC refusing to pay his bill

In my head, the timeline is - 

1. Message from ME to go pay BPC's debt.  

2. Jamie leaves with Fergus.

3. Apparent confrontation with fuckface Randall.

4. Jamie returns home, gets sword, takes off brace, writes note.

5. Jamie goes to the duel.  

6. Claire comes home, finds note, leaves the house.  

 

Oof, this one was a lot to digest.  I feel like I need puppies and chocolate.  

[Beeyago]

I have nothing to add because I barely remember these Paris episodes. I’m not a fan and have done no rewatches of them. I think I’m trying to erase them from my brain. Lol

[gingerella]

6 hours ago, Beeyago said:

I have nothing to add because I barely remember these Paris episodes. I’m not a fan and have done no rewatches of them. I think I’m trying to erase them from my brain. Lol

 

11 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Yes, it is exhausting.  Paris is exhausting.  

Ha! Well thank you for confirming that it's not just moi! Paris, *ptooey* , give me bonnie Scotland please!

@SassAndSnacks, thanks for the reality check on the "Makes No Damn Sense" category! Again, at least it's not just this Viewer who is befuddled on a near every Paris episode basis. So much stuff makes no sense.

11 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

In my head, the timeline is - 

1. Message from ME to go pay BPC's debt.  

2. Jamie leaves with Fergus.

3. Apparent confrontation with fuckface Randall.

4. Jamie returns home, gets sword, takes off brace, writes note.

5. Jamie goes to the duel.  

6. Claire comes home, finds note, leaves the house.  

See, now THIS makes a helluva lot more sense than what we were shown! You should write for the Show...It wouldn't even take much to have shown pieces of this to get the overall gist of events, but I suppose/hope we will get a little flashback in the next episode. Perhaps whatever happens to Fergus would have taken too much time to show and do due diligence to if it was child rape, so instead they didn't show any of it, and we'll get a recap from Jamie - BTW, is it Jaime or Jamie?!? - next episode. He seems to be able to slip out of the Bastille a lot more easily than Scottish prisons...just sayin'...

11 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

A major irritation of mine about this entire story is that SO much important dialogue happens "off screen."  We saw it with The Wedding, when we didn't get to hear Jamie tell Claire about his family.  We don't get to hear/see the apparent reconciliation of J&C after the "Don't Touch Me!" and you KNOW that would have been good, because they have such intense, incredible dialogue, and sadly, we don't get to hear Jamie tell Murtaugh about Claire.  I don't even care if it had been in Gaelic, I want to hear what he said and what he told him to explain it (and then have someone translate it for obvs.)

So much YES to all of this! I wonder, is all this missing exposition actually in the books but it was omitted from the Show, or is it also missing in the books (NOTE: I do not want to know what, just IF it exists!)? You are right, so much of "The Great Missing Dialogue of Outlander, S02" is because it would take hours to include it or it's too difficult to cull it down to a soundbite scene, but still, a good screen writer does just that - they take a book and make it into digestible episodes so why is so much exposition missing?! Arghhhh!

Oh! And I have a third theory about the whole Mary/BJR thingy...Maaaybe, since BJR seems to have some honest affection for his brother, perhaps he offers to marry Mary, but let Alex live with them, and thus Mary and Alex live as husband and wife under the roof of BJR, who is her legal husband in name only? They have a child together, and it's attributed to BJR but is really Alex's, and thus the Viewing community can REJOICE in knowing that BJR never sires any offspring and his demented fuckface self dies and puts an end to his sick mind. Hey, I'm trying here...

Edited April 9, 2021 by gingerella

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, Beeyago said:

I’m not a fan and have done no rewatches of them.

This is my first time rewatching these, and yeah...definitely remember now why I don't rewatch these.  

33 minutes ago, gingerella said:

See, now THIS makes a helluva lot more sense than what we were shown!

If I recall (in)correctly, Jamie doesn't leave with his sword when he and Fergus go to Madame's House of Jollies, so unless Murtaugh...aka the most sensible person in the whole city...comes back to get it, Jamie can't fight with it at the duel.  

36 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I wonder, is all this missing exposition actually in the books but it was omitted from the Show, or is it also missing in the books (NOTE: I do not want to know what, just IF it exists!)?

In some instances, yes, in some others, no.  

37 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Hey, I'm trying here...

Trying to make a good person out of BJR will get you nowhere!  Just ask Claire - it got her punched in the guts!  

[Cdh20]

Jumping in to say I liked this episode...Jamie rubbing Claire’s feet & talking to the baby bump ( OMG I am in love). Also liked them deciding to tell Murtagh about Claire, & then her convo with him, & Fergus throughout the episode is a gem also. Horrified but not surprised by the ending ( as soon as it happened I understood epi 201 better). 

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

This is my first time rewatching these, and yeah...definitely remember now why I don't rewatch these.  

 

You’ve been reading & rereading & not rewatching? Wth? 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Cdh20

[SassAndSnacks]

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

You’ve been reading & rereading & not rewatching? Wth? 

I rewatch, too, just not this group of episodes.  

[Cdh20]

Claire’s capes alone are worth a French rewatch! 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Cdh20

[gingerella]

12 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

Claire’s capes alone are worth a French rewatch! 

Well this I cannot argue against, you are right...

5 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

If I recall (in)correctly, Jamie doesn't leave with his sword when he and Fergus go to Madame's House of Jollies, so unless Murtaugh...aka the most sensible person in the whole city...comes back to get it, Jamie can't fight with it at the duel.  

But it couldn't be Murtagh because by this time wasn't he off to Portugal to sell Madeira back to the mother land?!?

Edited April 9, 2021 by gingerella