S02.E06: Sicut Cervus

[morgankobi]

3 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

OK, I am confused and hopefully someone can help me (I apologize if this is a dumb question): The church massacre--how long ago was that supposed to have happened? Was it earlier on the same day that Strand & Co. arrived? Also, why would Celia not want to preserve Thomas in the wine cellar with the others?

 

The massacre seems to have just been earlier that day, yes.

I assume she does want save him, hence the wafer. She's likely to be pretty pissed when she finds out Strand put a bullet in his head. She was relieved once she heard Luis wasn't shot in the head.

I thought it was clear she was the housekeeper at least, possibly also the nanny to Thomas. She was serving them by the pool in the flashback where Thomas tells Strand to just stay there. The lady of the house-that kind of house-likely doesn't serve people like that.

So Daniel confronts Celia and figures out she poisoned the wafers, then just watches as she walks away with two on a plate? He doesn't feel the need to find where she's taking them?

Edited May 16, 2016 by morgankobi
spelling

[ghoulina]

I fell asleep several times, woke up, rewound, etc. So my thoughts might be jumbled. 

 

Overall best part of the episode - when The Mad(die) Hatters are traipsing through whatever Mexican town they're in (I don't care enough to pay attention), zombies loom from all sides, and there's this lovely pile of weapons at their feet, with just enough for everyone!

Worst part - When Chris didn't kill Maddie AND Alicia with one fell swoop. Come on, Chris. I was rooting for you! We were all rooting for you!!!

No, seriously, is he the Lizzie of this franchise or what? 

I knew Strand wasn't seriously going to kill himself to be with his "beloved". 

Maybe it was my sleepiness, but I don't get what's going on with Celia. Okay, I get that spiritually dead people have some sort of reverence to her. I don't think it's like Hershel, where he thought there'd be a cure. But more like there's something special and sacred about the dead. So she can't/won't "kill" walkers; it's sacrilegious or something? But why did she kill all those people, at the church, to begin with? What was the point? 

 

Still so confused by this show....

[Muffyn]

13 hours ago, Kenz said:

I'm not sure why I'm still watching this show. The scene where the parishioners, including children, were heaped up with blood seeping out of their eyes, flies buzzing around, and a dog munching on them elicited no real emotion of horror from the crew I've come to hate. They walked by like it was no big deal until they started being attacked. The acting on this show is so slow and dim witted. I know they don't have much to work with script-wise, but can't they show some kind of genuine expressions on their faces? Only Strand and Daniel are tolerable to me in the acting department.

The whole point of this show was to show the early stages of the ZA.  The writers seem to have forgotten these people aren't seasoned veterans of zombie killing who can brush it off.  Should there be a ZA, I want whatever drugs these folks are on. 

10 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Daniel was a major dick for taking the prayer coin from the man that was going to die, and throwing it overboard.  I don't know what the writers' are thinking.  Do they want us to like the protagonists or not?  Tossing the coin overboard wasn't a badass move, it was a dick move.

To me that is one of the biggest problems with this show.  The writers seem to assume we like and care about all of the characters but haven't given us any reason to do so.  The most likable so far are a junkie and a conman.  Overall our hapless crew comes off like sociopaths.   It is so early in the  ZA we should see them react to seeing dead or zombified children.  At least Nick balked at smashing a little girl in the head.  Daniel hesitated but it was shown like a (poor depiction of a) PTSD flashback rather than an internal struggle or acknowledgement of the horror of killing a child.  When it's all said and done our team of sociopaths is ready to settle in for watching some videos and lazing around the vineyard, no worse for wear.    

2 hours ago, morgankobi said:

So Daniel confronts Celia and figures out she poisoned the wafers, then just watches as she walks away with two on a plate? He doesn't feel the need to find where she's taking them?

Well, it's not like the dead are a threat. Oh wait . . . maybe having death wafers around is a little bit of a problem.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Muffyn

[RustbeltWriter]

20 hours ago, Lamima said:

Again you need to watch TWD to get the show writers intentions. Epic fail!

1- Maddison is supposed to be the Rick of the show...NOT!

2- Chris isn't psycho and didn't mean his threat as a threat...um, seems full on crazy and murderous to me.

3- Celia isn't really Thomas' mom. Not sure how we were supposed to get that.

Etc....

 

 

20 hours ago, Lamima said:

 

Whoa, wait, what's this about Celia not being Thomas' mother? I don't remember that.

Edited May 17, 2016 by RustbeltWriter

[Lamima]

50 minutes ago, morgankobi said:

So Daniel confronts Celia and figures out she poisoned the wafers, then just watches as she walks away with two on a plate? He doesn't feel the need to find where she's taking them?

I wondered about this too.

[tvsoothesthespirit]

Maybe the fact that Celia doesn't like him and Thomas was dying is the reason that Strand felt he needed to bring Nick et al. with him. I think he could have found better support but, whatever, at least it would sort of answer one hole in the story.

I'm trying not to think too much about why Chris is going nuts and just concentrate on the entertainment value. I like that he's acting crazy and I think the actor is doing a pretty decent job of it.

I think Madison could make a decent leader if they would just dial down the mama bear crap a little bit. She can have her family's safety as her highest priority and still act friendly, at least until she finds out what kind of stuff is really going on. She could really work the Carol angle -- keeping her eyes open and looking for what she needs while maintaining a sort of helpless low profile.

Travis was sort of a non-entity this time around -- maybe he'll get the bite and go bye bye. Maybe he'll get a little sweaty and out of breath and Chris will kill him. That would be awesome.

I heard the dog whine and hit the fast forward button. Chickens I can handle but doggies? No way.

[Save Yourself]

6 hours ago, Texasmom1970 said:

I told my daughter Madison needs some southern manners, we are from Texas. I couldn't believe how bitchy she was with Celia then added thank you for your hospitality. So insincere. I know she is protective of her children but dang lady let Nick enjoy his soup! And I agree in some ways Nick is fragile and also he is stronger than some of the other characters because of what he has encountered on the streets and with his past drug use. And after all that he still has manners, the others could learn a lot from him.

Yes! She needs to watch Gone With the Wind and take some pointers from Melanie Hamilton. I think Nick is the strongest of the lot because of what you said, he did whatever he needed to do to get by when he was in the throes of addiction so he now uses those skills in this new world. He knew he had to kill the little girl, psyched himself up to do it, then got on with the job of clearing the rest of the walkers. Afterwards he had a normal human reaction of grief but I think he'll still continue fighting as necessary. I think of his fragility as in he feels things quite deeply, I don't think of it as a weakness, I'm not sure quite how to put into words, it just strikes a chord with me. 

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, morgankobi said:

The massacre seems to have just been earlier that day, yes.

I assume she does want save him, hence the wafer. She's likely to be pretty pissed when she finds out Strand put a bullet in his head. She was relieved once she heard Luis was't shot in the head.

I thought it was clear she was the housekeeper at least, possibly also the nanny to Thomas. She was serving them by the pool in the flashback where Thomas tells Strand to just stay there. The lady of the house-that kind of house-likely doesn't serve people like that.

So Daniel confronts Celia and figures out she poisoned the wafers, then just watches as she walks away with two on a plate? He doesn't feel the need to find where she's taking them?

Thank you! Admittedly, I don't pay as close attention to this show as I do TWD. I figured it was that day because I didn't see anything saying, like, "one month earlier" or something. Not that I would have noticed it, as it probably would have blended into the background anyway...

[Bad Example]

5 hours ago, diebartdie said:

Unless Thomas Abilgail LEGALLY married Victor Strand OR Abigail had an iron clad will leaving everything to Strand, Strand is not entitled to anything. No "partner" or "boyfriend" or "girlfriend" or lover or whatever has the same standing as a legal spouse. That's why we fought so damn hard for the right to be legally wed and our marriages to be recognized in all 50 states. I dont know how it is in Mexico though but last time I heard anything about marriage equality world wide, in Mexico it was only legal in Mexico City.

I do agree Celia needs to go.

 

4 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

Besides, ownership in the ZA is a flexible thing,

And it's not like there's a court system.  Who's going to tell Strand he can't have it all?  Celia?  She just killed off all the local people who might have sided with her.  (At least I think that's what happened.  Ebola wafers, as someone said.  Most of the time I have no idea what they're getting at.  Maybe I'm not paying enough attention.  Or maybe they're just not making a show that's compelling enough to make me pay attention.)

[spiderpig]

 Most of the time I have no idea what they're getting at.  Maybe I'm not paying enough attention.  Or maybe they're just not making a show that's compelling enough to make me pay attention.)

This is my problem with the show. I didn't start watching to become a hater, but I just can't find anything to like.

At least they're off the boat  (zzzzzzzzzzzz)

[candall]

30 minutes ago, tvsoothesthespirit said:

I heard the dog whine and hit the fast forward button.

I don't voluntarily look when I hear distressed animal sounds on my tv, either, so I just kept my head down and kept on typing.

Until I got here, I assumed someone was collecting a whole kennel full of dogs.  Protecting them from zombies seemed like a long shot, but maybe to train them to track down the undead or to use them to protect the premises.

NOT. HAPPY.

[kj4ever]

You know what cracks me up....Maybe I'm generalizing a little too much, but if there were an apocalypse do we really think that a bunch of people from LA are going to adapt faster and have more survival skills then people in rural Georgia?  Seriously?  This show has them doing things it took a year for our originals to do and I'm not buying it one bit.

[spiderpig]

^This.  Aren't these the idiots who were still puttng trash barrels on the curb while zombies were roving the streets of LA?

[Muffyn]

Hey now, just because the dead are attacking doesn't mean you should just throw away your recycling credit.  I got a rebate of almost $2 last year. /snark

[spiderpig]

2 minutes ago, Muffyn said:

Hey now, just because the dead are attacking doesn't mean you should just throw away your recycling credit.  I got a rebate of almost $2 last year. /snark

Thanks, Muffyn...and I'll remember to brush my teeth twice daily in between attacks!

[BananaRama]

Considering that Madison is a High School Guidance Counselor, shouldn't she be better at "reading" people?  She should also be better at getting people to trust her and like her. 

[spiderpig]

2 minutes ago, BananaRama said:

Considering that Madison is a High School Guidance Counselor, shouldn't she be better at "reading" people?  She should also be better at getting people to trust her and like her. 

Mr. pig and I discuss Mad a lot.  He likes her because she was good in Deadwood.  I say "I'm sure she was, but her character is annoying as hell in this show".  Of course, I'm not sure Meryl Streep could do anything with Madison as written.

[sony-b]

I think they're doing a hamhanded job with Chris (well, with everybody) but I think what they're going for is that he's having a PTSD response to the situation and he's a terrible communicator because he's 15, but he's not psycho. 

His dad kills his mom.  He kills the zombies at the fence.  He does the mercy killing in the plane.  He regrets not shooting the pirates before they boarded and feels intensely guilty about that, and then the pirate dude bullies Chris into killing him too, and Chris thinks for about 30 seconds that he's done the right thing and then it gets worse for him. 

I can totally buy him freezing when Madison's being attacked, he's been grinding his gears for a while.  And I can totally buy him being frustrated while trying to communicate with Alicia but she doesn't want to hear it.  And then she's biased when she goes to Madison about the threat.   So Madison is super biased when she goes to Travis. 

He went to the bedroom wanting to talk it out with Alicia, she didn't wake up and he gets distracted by the shiny knife that Madison isn't supposed to have. 

He's not crazy, it's all circumstantial and will blow up and be resolved in a family moment of understanding, probably mediated by Nick and Ofelia. 

[morgankobi]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I fell asleep several times, woke up, rewound, etc. So my thoughts might be jumbled. 

 

Overall best part of the episode - when The Mad(die) Hatters are traipsing through whatever Mexican town they're in (I don't care enough to pay attention), zombies loom from all sides, and there's this lovely pile of weapons at their feet, with just enough for everyone!

 

This one was legit. It was the pile of weapons the church-goers were grabbing from to go up the hill to attack Celia's place. Then their eyes started bleeding.

2 hours ago, Muffyn said:

The whole point of this show was to show the early stages of the ZA.  The writers seem to have forgotten these people aren't seasoned veterans of zombie killing who can brush it off.  Should there be a ZA, I want whatever drugs these folks are on. 

To me that is one of the biggest problems with this show.  The writers seem to assume we like and care about all of the characters but haven't given us any reason to do so.  The most likable so far are a junkie and a conman.  Overall our hapless crew comes off like sociopaths.   It is so early in the  ZA we should see them react to seeing dead or zombified children.  At least Nick balked at smashing a little girl in the head.  Daniel hesitated but it was shown like a (poor depiction of a) PTSD flashback rather than an internal struggle or acknowledgement of the horror of killing a child.  When it's all said and done our team of sociopaths is ready to settle in for watching some videos and lazing around the vineyard, no worse for wear.    

Well, it's not like the dead are a threat. Oh wait . . . maybe having death wafers around is a little bit of a problem.

Band name.

Claimed!

Edited May 16, 2016 by morgankobi
plurals!

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, Bad Example said:

Ebola wafers, as someone said.  

I'm thinking rat poison. Readily available and it's an anti-coagulant that might cause bleeding like we saw.

The worst thing about the scene with Chris and the knife is that it makes it look like Madison was right about him. And that really annoys me. The only time I actually liked Travis was his "I was the one driving around trying to find our junkie son. Let's help our other son." speech. Then the writers immediately undercut all of that.

[oakville]

7 hours ago, kj4ever said:

So I just read this article with the producer about this episode:

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/15/fear-the-walking-dead-sicut-cervus-strand-showrunner-dave-erickson

It doesn't even seem like the same show, the way he talks about it.  Then he says something about Thomas being Celia's adoptive son.  Did I miss that?  Oh and Chris?  His insights on Chris and the episode are nothing like what I was thinking.

I find it frustrating that you have to watch Talking Dead or find interviews with the show runners to figure out what is happening on the show. I thought Celia was Abigail's house keeper, not his adopted mother!.

[oakville]

7 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

Ah yes, but Madison didn't immediately help Travis on the dock either (hypocrite). She hung back and watched as Travis fought. Then she contributed with a few kicks. I am starting to hate the Madison character. No amount of retconing will make her the leader, ever. Now she is completely babying Nick again, telling others not to let him have a gun, or to talk to certain people. He is not an 8 year old Carl here. 

I get that they are including some of the differences in cultural views regarding the "dead" which could be a very interesting angle, if if weren't so similar to the farm and they didn't build it up enough to a grand reveal. It would have been better for Daniel to look at the coin and show some concern of recognition and then pocket it but not give it to Cecilia, until he figured it out. Since he is from South America he might be more aware of the differences in the religious and cultural views of the Mexican camp, but it would be better to let the discoveries happen more organically. It is like the producers are on overdrive to try and make the show a success and catch-up to the original recipe, but that means everything is rushed and just cheap. The make-up on the walkers is so cheap and jarring. It is like a 3rd rate horror film. It doesn't evoke the fear of a well done (make-up wise) walker at the exact right moment. The actors do not show the right amount of fear or anything. Where is the emotion? In addition, for a group on the run, they have had it pretty damn good. The boat was pretty great and The Mexican camp is frigging awesome. Power, water, lights, TV, food. Not hardly a peep about being so grateful to be there and safe. They just roll in and it is like they are on vaca from California. I do have to agree, Nick's hair looks better down and not slicked back. (dirty or clean). 

This  group is much luckier than CDB. I still can't figure out how they got through the Mexican Border after killing 2 border patrol officers that boarded the boat.

[Chairman Meow]

I have never understood, before this show, the concept of hate watching.  I get it now.  I'd like to formally apologize to all the people who I dismissed with "If you don't like it, don't watch it!"

[Yolapukka]

Quote

I would think though that as a normal person, if you see anyone right in front of you fighting for their life, your first instinct would be to help them out of compassion for another human being.

I think most people like to believe they'd do what was right in a dire situation with no hesitation but real life is a continual reminder that it just isn't so, even for those that define themselves as decent and honourable people, never mind the regrets that an ill-considered action with unforeseen consequences can bring.

 

Anyway the only reason it even seems like Chris' hesitation could have been born of malice was the fact it was Madison, someone he has an uneasy relationship with and someone who is also the ostensible lead and therefore a character whose instincts are presumed to be correct. 

[CrashTextDummie]

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

I get the very real impression that the writers haven't thought through this, except on maybe a grand level. For instance, they're on a boat. Then, but only later on, do the writers think of what to do with that.

I pity the poor actors. I mean, maybe they all suck anyway, but I think the largest problem is that the actors don't know what they're characters are all about. Seriously, and not go get all Al Pacino,mouth they don't know what their motivation is. I beg the actor who plays Chris is probably asking the same questions we are. "Wait, that's my step-mom. Do I want her to die? Well, why?"

I think the actors spend a lot of time scratching their heads between scenes.

how many actors, expecially guest actors, have I heard on TTD say: "I had no idea what they wanted me for. I thought it was a cop and robbers story!?! Then, all of a sudden, I get there and . . ."

Well said. The lack of creative vision is astonishing. It's no wonder the only characters who aren't pretty much universally loathed here and elsewhere are played by actors who get by on natural charisma. Everyone's personality is paper-thin and one-note and the cast seems to be completely lost.

I don't even like Strand. One episode of flashbacks did not sell me on his romance with Abigail and the actors lacked chemistry. So I wasn't even invested in their little Romeo & Juliet scenario.

With this episode and its Mexican Hershel's Farm (complete with barn zombies), the show managed to be simultaneously incoherent and derivative. It's quite a feat at this point to be honest.

Edited May 16, 2016 by CrashTextDummie
grammar

[brini]

Lots of info at link below about the practice of Santa Muerte,  in Mexico.

Some of the symbolism from this episode seem to be present here - owl statue, coins (owl on the coin that was tossed overboard), and much more.   Daniel would be aware of Sante Muerte culture b/c of his Central American roots,  which explains his standing in front of the owl memorial and answering "No" when Celia asked if he was praying and also him throwing the owl coin overboard quickly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Muerte

Santa Muerte

"Nuestra Señora de la Santa Muerte or, colloquially, Santa Muerte (Spanish for Holy Death or Sacred Death), is a female folk saint venerated primarily in Mexico and the Southwestern United States. A personification of death, she is associated with healing, protection, and safe delivery to the afterlife by her devotees."

[spiderpig]

Thanks to everyone for their input on this thread.  It's taken me FIVE attempts to get thru this ep, pausing to check back here to verify what was going on.

I'm retired and have the time - but day-um.  Should a zombie series require this much work?

[Lii]

They really need to stop trying to make this into Fine Art and just make a show that isn't an incoherent pile of crap.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Lii

[Haleth]

The producers really miscast Maddie.  Whenever someone talks about how tough she is (as Strand said to Thomas) I burst out laughing. Kim D does not have the gravitas to be the strong leader of this crew. Plus she has zero chemistry with the actor playing Travis.  Her swagger is ridiculous.  I appreciate the writers wanting to flip the script and give us a female lead, but they should have put her footage in front of a focus group.  Kim as Maddie isn't cutting it.

Quote

Some of the symbolism from this episode seem to be present here - owl statue, coins (owl on the coin that was tossed overboard), and much more.   Daniel would be aware of Sante Muerte culture b/c of his Central American roots,  which explains his standing in front of the owl memorial and answering "No" when Celia asked if he was praying and also him throwing the owl coin overboard quickly.

Gee, it might have been nice had Daniel mentioned some of this rather than forcing the audience to google it.

[Lii]

Kim as Maddie constantly has the same look on her face that I do when my cat shits on the floor. 

[heisenberg]

12 hours ago, loki567 said:

They need to can the current writers and start over (just like TWD has done a couple times). You can tell these writers have no clue what they're doing with the story. They're stumbling from one scenario to another like a... well, a zombie. I think that's a major reason that most of the actors feel off, they're doing their best with an extremely jumble and disjointed storyline. They need to get a showrunner in there who has a strong vision for what they want to do with a zombie apocalypse show. 

To complete what I wrote in a message before and share what you are saying. 

1- I would definitely kill everybody except maybe Strand and Nick.

2- I put them back on the boat and take a fresh new start with different writers and actors.

3- They could even end up in a place/village/city where the zombies are not in yet.  They could study the walkers, try to figure out what appended, get in touch by the web or radio with groups from all over the world who are resisting and experimenting.

 

Well... Everything that this show was supposed to be about in the first place.

 

But no, it will keep beeing about the story of a narcissic disfuncional family who don't care about anything but their ass and ego problems and whining about it.

Just lame and boring!

Edited May 17, 2016 by heisenberg

[Iguessnot]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 10:13 PM, econ07 said:

Chris said "I don't want to hurt anyone" to Alicia.  I think he was saying: I really don't want to hurt anyone because of my mistakes.  Alicia took it as "I don't want to HAVE to hurt anyone Alicia ... hint, hint."  Thus, the Three's Company misunderstanding at the end when he was retrieving the knife.  Never thought the producer's would steel tricks from Jack Tripper and the gang.

Seriously. Nothing about that situation warranted him crossing to the other side to put his hands on that knife. Was he only trying to rouse Alicia? If so,he should have tapped her shoulder. Saying "Alicia" does not mean the non Alicias in the room do not wake up. It just doesn't work that way.

[Anela]

That poor dog!! I hate it when they do that, I was surprised when one animal was actually spared on Walking Dead. I know it's fiction, but those dog squeals are haunting me. 

[BasilSeal]

12 hours ago, ghoulina said:

But why did she kill all those people, at the church, to begin with? What was the point? 

the point is that she doesn't believe that death is the end for them, she's ok with her own son being shot because she knows he'll come back as a walker and will 'find his way home'. It's a different set up to Hershel who thought he could cure the walkers through the medium of praying and hand holding, Celia thinks the dead walk among us anyway and the walkers are just a physical manifestation of this. There's some misdirection here as we are led to believe that Thomas is in charge but in fact Celia is, Mexican Jack black gives us a clue as he says his mother would be safe anywhere, but Thomas needs to try to dissuade the villagers from attacking the compound, rather than saying 'FFS, don't keep a load of walkers in my house and stop killing people', so clearly she is calling th shots and has considerable fire power, as even though there are a decent number of armer villagers, Thomas considers them to be on a suicide mission. (which they are).

 

I  don't have an issue with this being 'like the Greene farm' because i think it likely that many people would feel reluctant to violently dispatch zombified loved ones, who appear to be human, sort of, and who might still be cured. i mean you'd be a bit pissed off if you bludgeoned your entire family and that guy from The Last Ship turned up and crop dusted everyone with a magic zombie reverser. Unless of course your entire family were this lot.

10 hours ago, morgankobi said:

The Mad(die) Hatters

Very good, i keep thinking of the as the grizwolds, partly because some of them are called clark and partly because this show is essentially National Lampoons Zombie Vacation.

[BasilSeal]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

That poor dog!! I hate it when they do that, I was surprised when one animal was actually spared on Walking Dead. I know it's fiction, but those dog squeals are haunting me.

As opposed to all the dead children, you mean?

Actually i'm not having a go because i don't like to see animals killed on TV and film myself, but why is that? they kill a whole bus load of kids but it's the dog we find disturbing? It's like that bit in Independence day where the aliens kill millions of innocent people, but don't kill Will Smith's dog, because that would be like, a step too far.

Perhaps it's because we know the violence against humans isn't real, but violence against animals, because it's more prevalent in the real world, somehow seems less cartoonish?

[Josette]

Quote

I thought Celia was Abigail's house keeper, not his adopted mother!.

I don't think she is his legal adoptive mom.  She just considers him like a son because she helped raise him.  She is still an employee of the Abigails, but was probably a mother figure for Thomas.

[RustbeltWriter]

What was so important that Strand had to leave the relative safety of Abigail's place to return to LA? It's like he just went up there in order to get captured, pick up Maddie's gang and return to Mexico. Did I miss why he had to go to LA?

[BasilSeal]

49 minutes ago, RustbeltWriter said:

What was so important that Strand had to leave the relative safety of Abigail's place to return to LA? It's like he just went up there in order to get captured, pick up Maddie's gang and return to Mexico. Did I miss why he had to go to LA?

He was trying to close some sort of land deal, it's how Abigail has made his money, buying cheap property on the back of disasters, at that point they think this is some disaster that will be recovered from, not TEOTWAWKI

 

49 minutes ago, Josette said:

I don't think she is his legal adoptive mom.  She just considers him like a son because she helped raise him.  She is still an employee of the Abigails, but was probably a mother figure for Thomas.

I'm sure Mexican Jack Black said his mum worked for the Abigails, she sings the lullaby to the dying Thomas that she says she sung to him as a child, so presumably she was some sort of nanny to him, though why Thomas has a Scottish accent when he grew up in Mexico is unclear. she appears to be running the estate, and as such has the presumably large workforce under her control and loyal to her, this could explain why she is calling the shots when Abigail is technically her employer.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BasilSeal

[rab01]

Yeah, the show is making it pretty clear that most people in the household answer to Celia and that Abigail was the son of the manor but not fully controlling it. The people probably wouldn't have attacked or directly challenged him but I highly doubt that his gay lover who mercy killed him will hold the same sway. (What Strand did was the right thing and what I'd want a loved one to do for me but I'm sure it fatally weakened his position in the household.)

I like that we finally got a full argument between Travis and Maddie where they called each other on their shit. Now they can move on to more interesting things than awkward silences.

Unfortunately, bad acting continues to be a problem. The most that Chris can do is sullen stone face.  Since that's his default facial expression, much like Madison's "I smell a fart" face,  we don't get a whole lot of insight into what's supposed to be going on with him and I don't care.

Everyone involved in this show has made a brave choice to present a bunch of somewhat realistic characters in the ZA.  Unfortunately for me, I hate most of them so I don't feel the necessary sympathy dread when they are in danger. I bet people that find them likable are enjoying the show a lot more than I am.

Edited May 17, 2016 by rab01

[Bunnyhop]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 1:53 AM, yuggapukka said:

I get the feeling that Travis has bent over backwards to treat the Clarks as his family but I don't think the same can't be said of Madison. I think some of Travis' efforts to be family with Madison has been at his son's expense.

I agree.  Madison flip flops between sympathetic mother figure to accuser pretty easily when it comes to Chris.  She certainly doesn't see Chris as her and Travis' shared responsibility the way she expects Travis to see her kids.  I don't think that the only interpretation of Chris' remark to Alicia about not wanting to hurt anyone is that it is a threat.  Chris has been one of my least favorite characters, but this sudden "homicidal threat" suspicion is kind of out of the blue.  I know he has been sort of "eager?" to kill outsiders he sees as a threat, but I don't recall any of that behavior directed at his group.  Yes, I know it appeared that he was allowing Madison to die, but I'm not sure that he didn't freeze.  Whatever the truth may turn out to be, I'm getting a real "misunderstood" vibe about Chris the Killer and it will probably have dire consequences for the wrong person/people.

[ghoulina]

17 hours ago, oakville said:

I find it frustrating that you have to watch Talking Dead or find interviews with the show runners to figure out what is happening on the show. I thought Celia was Abigail's house keeper, not his adopted mother!.

Luis told Nick that his mother worked for the Abigails. He never mentioned, nor did anyone else that I can recall, that Celia was his adoptive mother. Where are they pulling this shit out of???

 

16 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

With this episode and its Mexican Hershel's Farm (complete with barn zombies), the show managed to be simultaneously incoherent and derivative. It's quite a feat at this point to be honest.

Hershel's barn walkers totally called their union reps after watching this episode. "They're getting big, fat dogs down there in Mexico and all we're getting is one scrawny chicken???"

 

13 hours ago, Lii said:

 

Kim as Maddie constantly has the same look on her face that I do when my cat shits on the floor. 

 

Yes! I walked in on my husband watching it last night on DVR and she was just standing there as if someone had farted. That's her go-to look. She's pondering all the horrible smells of the world. 

 

7 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

the point is that she doesn't believe that death is the end for them, she's ok with her own son being shot because she knows he'll come back as a walker and will 'find his way home'

I get that. So I understand her keeping people who happen to die. But I still don't understand her wanting to ACTIVELY create dead people. Are dead people better than living ones? Is it some sort of sacrifice to her gods?

[rab01]

2 hours ago, Bunnyhop said:

I agree.  Madison flip flops between sympathetic mother figure to accuser pretty easily when it comes to Chris.  She certainly doesn't see Chris as her and Travis' shared responsibility the way she expects Travis to see her kids.  I don't think that the only interpretation of Chris' remark to Alicia about not wanting to hurt anyone is that it is a threat.  Chris has been one of my least favorite characters, but this sudden "homicidal threat" suspicion is kind of out of the blue.  I know he has been sort of "eager?" to kill outsiders he sees as a threat, but I don't recall any of that behavior directed at his group.  Yes, I know it appeared that he was allowing Madison to die, but I'm not sure that he didn't freeze.  Whatever the truth may turn out to be, I'm getting a real "misunderstood" vibe about Chris the Killer and it will probably have dire consequences for the wrong person/people.

I've never actually seen her as mother figure to Chris. When she comforted him after killing the hostage, it seemed to me like damage control. She couldn't really do anything better with the situation so she hugged him.

I agree with you that Chris hasn't become a psycho overnight. Credit where it's due -- FtWD has been pretty consistent about character beats (maybe not plot or world building but the characters are more true to themselves than recent episodes of TWD). Because of that, I trace Chris' hesitation in this episode to his "letting" the pirates onto the boat and then killing the hostage and the orgy of second-guessing it's engendered. His response to Alicia could be evidence not of malicious intent but that he can't stand having his judgment doubted even more. (His picking up the steak knife is some Three's Company type misunderstanding fodder but not necessarily a sign of any evil intent by the character.) As for the "original sin" of letting the pirates on board, he was seriously screwed over by his parents in that scenario. Can you believe that they put a teenager on guard duty with a gun and didn't discuss with him what he's supposed to do if strangers try to come on board? Really, is he expected to shoot a pregnant lady on his own judgment? I bet you a million dollars that Travis did NOT have a talk with him beforehand about using lethal force if a dinghy ignores his warnings and pulls up alongside. It's deeply unfair to put a teenager (or anyone) on guard duty and not talk to him first about what he should do if trouble happens.

Ghoulina - I think "adoptive mother" was used in that interview to reflect that she raised him as the nanny/housekeeper, not that she formally adopted him. Also, she protects her own (including zombies) with lethal force but she's not Lizzie trying to create extra zombies.

[diebartdie]

Quote

but she's not Lizzie trying to create extra zombies.

That is only true if she does not realize that dying = becoming a zombie because she deliberately poisoned the parishioners therefore deliberately creating zombies just like Lizzie.

[BasilSeal]

36 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I get that. So I understand her keeping people who happen to die. But I still don't understand her wanting to ACTIVELY create dead people. Are dead people better than living ones? Is it some sort of sacrifice to her gods?

Yes but the walkers in the cellar are her dead people, the villagers are just randoms who are trying to destroy the remnants of people she has an obligation to. Celia says to torture guy: 'how can i not take them in, they're being hunted out there'. These were her worker or their relatives, people she has an obligation to, (also by keeping them in this way their living relatives are also obligated to her, thus re-enforcing her power base). Obligation is one of the key themes in fTWD. Abigail tells Strand he is obligated to him when he catches up with him after Strand has stolen his wallet, the Grizwolds are obligated to Strand for Saving them, and he's obligated to them for going back for him after they were boarded by the crap pirates, Plane girl feels obligated to the dying boy, and so on. there's also the issue of one's general obligation to help others in distress, or not help them, as the case may be. I suppose it's about the conflict between self preservation and doing the right thing.

[rab01]

18 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

That is only true if she does not realize that dying = becoming a zombie because she deliberately poisoned the parishioners therefore deliberately creating zombies just like Lizzie.

She knows it's going to happen but her purpose is to protect her own undead, not just to create more undead playmates, like Lizzie wanted. 

[diebartdie]

Lizzie wasn't just creating playmates, I dont think Lizzie saw herself as creating playmates at all. Lizzie saw it the exact same way as Celia sees it, walkers are not "dead", they are just what comes next. Celia may have killed the parishioners due to a desire to protect her particular herd ultimately though to both Celia and Lizzie, there isnt a difference and in fact, the undead ones (ALL the undead) are the ones in need of protection.

Edited May 17, 2016 by diebartdie

[BetyBee]

Why does anyone feed Walkers anyway?  It's not like it prevents them from eating humans.  They're never satisfied.

[Haleth]

And it's not like they will starve to death if not fed. 

I've wondered how zombies digest if all their systems are shut down.  Guess that's something we're supposed to hand wave. 

[BasilSeal]

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

Why does anyone feed Walkers anyway?  It's not like it prevents them from eating humans.  They're never satisfied.

I think at this point, walker husbandry is still in its infancy.

But really, who would know what they needed? or whether they needed live feed to survive, as they're family and friends, perhaps Celia thinks as they seem to be craving live flesh, it would be impolite not to give it to them?

[Anela]

11 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

As opposed to all the dead children, you mean?

Actually i'm not having a go because i don't like to see animals killed on TV and film myself, but why is that? they kill a whole bus load of kids but it's the dog we find disturbing? It's like that bit in Independence day where the aliens kill millions of innocent people, but don't kill Will Smith's dog, because that would be like, a step too far.

Perhaps it's because we know the violence against humans isn't real, but violence against animals, because it's more prevalent in the real world, somehow seems less cartoonish?

I didn't see them kill children - except for the one that I was spoiled on, by the actress herself (on periscope), since I watched the following day. 

There have been too many stories of animal cruelty, and I'm very protective of any dogs around (just as I would be with children). To see a kid drop a defenseless dog into a chute, for zombies - ugh. There was a scene in the book "Cell" where the zombified people started to rip apart dogs, and I almost didn't read the rest of the book.