S02.E09: Nailed

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think some people mentioned that Jimmy's prints would be all over the original (1261) documents, but didn't Chuck turn those over to Kim?

 

Yeah I said that, and yes the boxes were given to Kim.  Jimmy may have helped carry the boxes, but his fingerprints should not be on the confidential files of a client who is not his.  I think it's pretty probative, at least very relevant.  But then I thought Mike's fingerprints not being on Tuco's gun was pretty relevant, too, and that went nowhere. 

 

On a lighter note, I cracked up when Jimmy was trying to b.s. the teachers or administrators at the school, and said something about the kids like, "just give 'em a worksheet."  I feel like the humor quotient could go up a tick.  One of the best parts of BB was that Walt or Jesse or of course Saul would often interject a real zinger amongst all the gloom and doom.

[xyzzy]

UO: I'm not blaming Chuck for how Jimmy turned out.  I don't recall seeing Chuck around when Jimmy stole money from his father's till.

 

When my brother was 8 he stole a gluestick from a paper shop. Now he's in law enforcement. People change. There are many complete and utter screw-ups who fixed their lives and became human beings with a little support from friends and families. Say, Robert Downey, Jr. Jimmy seemed to be on that road--no trouble for years until his brother stabbed him in the back and he ended up living in a nail salon and arguing shit cases for pennies on top of the hours he spent each day meeting his mentally ill brother's exacting requirements for agoraphobic living. If Chuck had given Jimmy a chance (just as Kim says in this episode) he could have helped Jimmy become something more than a chimp with a gun. Chuck is getting exactly the brother he deserves.

[SignGuy77]

The whole Rupert Holmes ruse was some outstanding comedy. From Jimmy's film crew to his conning of the school staff/Admin. The best part for me was the new girl bobbing her head in the background as Jimmy "sang" then nearly torpedoed his script with her "Wasn't Rupert Holmes English?"

[RCharter]

There are some things that you have to let slide for the value of the story. If you force writers to research every little detail, it would take months to write one script. I put Jimmy's mail order school and Kim legal specialty in that category. Stuff you let slide for the sake of the plot. Its always a fine line. You have to let some things slide or the show gets boring but if you let too much slide it can make the show too unbelievable. 

 

Whether or not the tape with Jimmy bribing the clerk gets erased depends on the sneakiness of the clerk. I assume that there is  a fairly significant time between when Jimmy talks to the clerk and when Chuck show up. I also assume that the tape machine is a simple cheap system with real tape and no time markers. If the clerk is smart, he rewinds the tape to just before Jimmy came in and when there is no one in the store and he is out of frame. Time how long it takes until Jimmy leaves and no one is in the store and he is out of frame. Start the tape recording and walk out front and get in the frame. Walk back out and stop the recording. In the recording, you see an empty store for 5 minutes or so with a little tape artifact at the beginning and end of the edit on a tape that has been taped over and over again for months, maybe years.  

 

The only part of the tape that the manager is going to look at will be the accident. They won't notice the small edit. It's unlikely that there is ever going to be a court case and even if there is there is no proof that there was anything edited on the tape. The FBI with their high tech equipment isn't going to get involved in the case. 

 

Chuck didn't cause Jimmy's behavior but he sure provoked it. When Jimmy got his law degree, Chuck could have done two things. Say congratulations you're hired and put him in document review for a few years. Jimmy would have quit within a month. Or he could have said congratulations and gave or loaned him a few bucks to set up his new shop and washed his hands of him. Instead he tried to control Jimmy's life for him. I get the feeling that Chuck has had some degree of mental illness  (perhaps not an illness but he was not neurotypical) for many years. It allowed him the hyper focus to be a great lawyer but it blunted his interpersonal skills so much that he was only marginally functional in social situations. 

He could have just even said "wow, that is so amazing, let me take you to lunch so we can talk about what you're going to do" and then he could have tried to talk Jimmy out of big law life.  Big firm life is clearly not for Jimmy and Chuck would know that.  Or like you said, a few months in doc review and Jimmy would have sabotaged himself and Chuck would have looked like a hero.  Chuck sort of reminds me of that movie "A Beautiful Mind" (which I haven't seen for years, but I just remember a genius with mental problems)

 

As far as the rest of your post...completely agree.  I enjoy discussing the minutiae and the possibilities and where it could all go, because I think its interesting.  But you're right, a lot of things just have to slide, because they seem to be there to establish something else.  The fact that Jimmy went to a correspondence law school is mostly used to show that he was scraping the bottom of the barrel law schools, in contrast to Chuck who probably went to a fine and distinguished law school and probably did law review and graduated magna cum laude.  And totally agree that Lance's boss would really only be interested in seeing what happened when Chuck had his fall....although as Umbelina pointed out, there is a good chance he fiddles with that tape before anyone is called.

[attica]

"Holmes" is now the leading autofill on a google search for 'Rupert.' Heh.  Turns out, he did move to the US when he was six, but not to NM. (NYS instead). Well done, show.

 

Mike and the waitress.  I'm down with that.

 

How great was Banks in the post hijack scenes? He was walking tall, glowing and confident, enough to inspire a waitress to make a pass at him, and fully enjoying when she did. And then, when he learned about the Good Samaritan, he just deflates. So good.

 

Boy, for a character with so few lines, I thought that Paige was going to leap across that table and rip out Chuck's throat for his condescension. And i for one would not convict her! 

[RCharter]

Something else that strikes me about this episode is how much it must have messed with Chucks head to have Kim choose Jimmy over him.

 

Jimmy was able to charm Rebecca in just a few minutes.  Chuck has done the best he can to convince Kim that he is a good guy, that he is in the right, and that Jimmy is wrong....and I think he thought that she was on his side and that for once, he had managed to "outcharm" Jimmy.  This is why he was hoping to get Kim alone, because he felt like his charm, or whatever he is using....was working with her.  He thought she was on his side.

 

When she set Chuck straight, he must have known that she was never really on his side and at least, from what he could see....once again everything turned up sunshine and unicorns for slippin' Jimmy, even though he did everything wrong and Chuck did everything right.  Including thinking about the Magna Carta to remember the numbers.

[scenario]

The prints are not a big deal. Have Jimmy act as Kim's clerk for a few days when he's not busy until she gets a chance to hire someone. He just went through all of the papers to make sure everything was there and that the paperwork had the right addresses, etc. 

[RedBaron]

 

The prints are not a big deal. Have Jimmy act as Kim's clerk for a few days when he's not busy until she gets a chance to hire someone. He just went through all of the papers to make sure everything was there and that the paperwork had the right addresses, etc.

 

Or the box was dropped during the move and he had to pick up the papers and place them back in the box.  There are so many scenarios as to why his prints would be on the papers but that's assuming anybody would even want to try or be able to get any prints off a piece of paper that was handled by a number of people.

Edited April 13, 2016 by RedBaron

[Bannon]

There are some things that you have to let slide for the value of the story. If you force writers to research every little detail, it would take months to write one script. I put Jimmy's mail order school and Kim legal specialty in that category. Stuff you let slide for the sake of the plot. Its always a fine line. You have to let some things slide or the show gets boring but if you let too much slide it can make the show too unbelievable. 

 

Whether or not the tape with Jimmy bribing the clerk gets erased depends on the sneakiness of the clerk. I assume that there is  a fairly significant time between when Jimmy talks to the clerk and when Chuck show up. I also assume that the tape machine is a simple cheap system with real tape and no time markers. If the clerk is smart, he rewinds the tape to just before Jimmy came in and when there is no one in the store and he is out of frame. Time how long it takes until Jimmy leaves and no one is in the store and he is out of frame. Start the tape recording and walk out front and get in the frame. Walk back out and stop the recording. In the recording, you see an empty store for 5 minutes or so with a little tape artifact at the beginning and end of the edit on a tape that has been taped over and over again for months, maybe years.  

 

The only part of the tape that the manager is going to look at will be the accident. They won't notice the small edit. It's unlikely that there is ever going to be a court case and even if there is there is no proof that there was anything edited on the tape. The FBI with their high tech equipment isn't going to get involved in the case. 

 

Chuck didn't cause Jimmy's behavior but he sure provoked it. When Jimmy got his law degree, Chuck could have done two things. Say congratulations you're hired and put him in document review for a few years. Jimmy would have quit within a month. Or he could have said congratulations and gave or loaned him a few bucks to set up his new shop and washed his hands of him. Instead he tried to control Jimmy's life for him. I get the feeling that Chuck has had some degree of mental illness  (perhaps not an illness but he was not neurotypical) for many years. It allowed him the hyper focus to be a great lawyer but it blunted his interpersonal skills so much that he was only marginally functional in social situations. 

I'm pretty familiar with Albuquerque. As it happens, Chuck' s house, in real life is about 10 minutes from the Federal, State, and Metro court complexes, and the print shop is in the same area, I believe.  You'd expect lawyers to use a print shop near their offices, or near the courthouse(s), which may all be in the area. Now, perhaps the writers aren't using real geography (and that's fine), but there isn't anything the least bit implausible about Lance and Jimmy deciding to effect the erasure of the incriminating part of the tape after Chuck and Ernesto have come and left. If  Lance doesn't get it erased before the boss arrives, and Lance's boss doesn't stop to look at the bribe (if he's just fast forwarding to the fall), that's believable , but there's reason  Jimmy wants the tape erased. As long as it exists, Jimmy's freedom is in peril. Ernesto is going to tell Howard about Lance's changed statements, that occurred within a very short period of time, and Howard is going to wonder why that change occurred. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder about whether there is any security camera footage, and call the shop owner about it. Again, I'm not making a prediction, and if the writers want to leave the tape erased, that's perfectly believable. It's just as believable that it hasn't been, and it is going to be a McGuffin, even into next season. 

 

As to general issues of credibility, I think viewers sometimes don't remember that Gilligan and Co. have about 10 hours between mid February and mid April to tell their story. No, it isn't believable that Mesa Verde would consider going with a newly started one lawyer shop, no matter how impressed they are with Kim. You can write around that issue, and preserve the conflicts you are going for, but that requires something that the writers don't have, which is more time. Same with more minor plot developments, like Mike's lack of concealment when staking out Tio. Yes, you could take the time to more fully develop a credible means of concealed observation, but that would take time away from something else. What the writers are trying to do here is really difficult.

[scenario]

If you're a local you can always pick things apart. I live in RI and I've seen the Providence airport in several shows and movies. The Providence Airport doesn't exist. There is a Green airport and its in Warwick RI. Its mildly annoying but I let it slide. Whenever I call for airplane tickets, they frequently ask if I want to land in Providence. I really would rather not land in Providence since there aren't any airports in Providence. I'd much rather land in Warwick at the airport. Things like where the copy shops are really located in the city don't really matter. 

 

Even if Chuck et al.  wants to look at the tape, how are they going to see it without a lawsuit? If I'm the owner of the copy shop I'm not going to let the other sides lawyers see the tape until I absolutely have to.  All of the witnesses will say that Chuck just suddenly collapsed. He didn't slip or anything. There really isn't any basis for a lawsuit.  If a big time law firm asks to see my security tapes and I'm a small business, I'm going to be real reluctant to give it to them.   I might fire the clerk but I'd rather not get in the cross hairs of a bunch of big time lawyers. 

 

 

[J----av]

I

Chuck's a bad brother for letting the younger brother who idolizes him think it was Howard who was completely unwilling to let to work with Jimmy as an attorney, when in reality it was Chuck all along. Lying to your little brother, so he'll continue to wait on you hand and foot, as you refuse to seek treatment for your mental illness, makes you a bad brother.

 

 You are reaching hard here. Refuse to seek treatment for his mental illness? Chuck doesn't think he has a mental illness, he thinks he has a physical illness. Thats part of his illness!  LOL, you really think he lied to jimmy so he would wait on him hand and foot? He lied to Jimmy because he thinks it would be best for Jimmy 

[Bannon]

You are reaching hard here. Refuse to seek treatment for his mental illness? Chuck doesn't think he has a mental illness, he thinks he has a physical illness. Thats part of his illness!  LOL, you really think he lied to jimmy so he would wait on him hand and foot? He lied to Jimmy because he thinks it would be best for Jimmy

If you don't think one of the reasons Chuck lied to Jimmy about who opposed the notion, of Jimmy being an attorney at HHM, was because Chuck wanted Jimmy to continue to be Chuck's personal valet, we aren't watching the same show.

Yes, Chuck doesn't believe he has a mental illness, and thus refuses treatment. Quite a common phenomena among the mentally ill.

[J----av]

Wasn't there supposed to be an episode this season that was going to make us feel for Chuck and better sympathize with where he is coming from? Was this it? Because the only "feels" I had for Chuck were delight as he realized that his craziness is finally starting to catch up with him and people aren't going to continue to accept his eccentricities because he's such a legal genius. Even though he knows how Jimmy operates, Jimmy is "normal" and charming and Chuck is a whack-a-doo and people (I don't include Kim in this) tend to believe the "normal" people over the whack-a-doos. . . 

 

Kim was pretty awesome in this episode -- "I don't want to talk about it now . . . or ever" . . .(but even though I defended you to Chuck we both know you did it and you'd better make damn sure that you didn't leave any loose strings for Chuck to find because you know he will and then you and I are done). 

 

If Chuck is in a coma, as far as I'm concerned, he can stay there. Jimmy's guilt will be tough to watch, but I'm glad we got another step in his progression toward full Goodman -- he is finally starting to get a backbone with Chuck. Yes, he feels guilty about the set-up, but at least he is, in his way, finally standing up to Chuck, and that is not a bad thing. Its a transition and a mind-shift for him, so the guilt is natural. As he gets more comfortable with having a backbone toward Chuck, the guilt will (hopefully) lessen.

 

This season has gone by way too quickly  -- I don't want to wait 10 months for next season! 

 

 

 Finally? Jimmy stood up to Chuck the second he found out Chuck didn't want him as a lawyer

[J----av]

If you don't think one of the reasons Chuck lied to Jimmy about who opposed the notion, of Jimmy being an attorney at HHM, was because Chuck wanted Jimmy to continue to be Chuck's personal valet, we aren't watching the same show.

Yes, Chuck doesn't believe he has a mental illness, and thus refuses treatment. Quite a common phenomena among the mentally ill.

 

 Seriously? Maybe you are just missing things because you have Chuck=Evil stuck in your head. Its not about Chuck wanting Jimmy as a personal valet. Its about Chuck not wanting to strain his relationship with his brother. Chuck probably would have been fine having HMM send someone to help him instead of having Jimmy

 

 And Chuck refusing treatment for his mental illness does not make him a bad brother. It makes him a guy with a mental illness who doesn't think the doctors can help him because they tell him its all mental (which he doesn't believe) 

Edited April 13, 2016 by J----av

[ShellSeeker]

Hi everyone,

 

I've created a thread for pre-finale discussion, and for live-blogging during the finale. As a reminder, it is OK to discuss Breaking Bad in these episode threads. Since these 2 shows are so closely intertwined, it's almost impossible for BB not to come up. For those who don't want BB discussion, there is the BB-free thread. And there is also a thread to discuss the 2 shows in general.

 

And even though this is a show about lawyers, let's try not to get into too much legal minutiae. We can set up a thread for discussing the finer points of law, if people want to talk about that.

[Bannon]

If you're a local you can always pick things apart. I live in RI and I've seen the Providence airport in several shows and movies. The Providence Airport doesn't exist. There is a Green airport and its in Warwick RI. Its mildly annoying but I let it slide. Whenever I call for airplane tickets, they frequently ask if I want to land in Providence. I really would rather not land in Providence since there aren't any airports in Providence. I'd much rather land in Warwick at the airport. Things like where the copy shops are really located in the city don't really matter. 

 

Even if Chuck et al.  wants to look at the tape, how are they going to see it without a lawsuit? If I'm the owner of the copy shop I'm not going to let the other sides lawyers see the tape until I absolutely have to.  All of the witnesses will say that Chuck just suddenly collapsed. He didn't slip or anything. There really isn't any basis for a lawsuit.  If a big time law firm asks to see my security tapes and I'm a small business, I'm going to be real reluctant to give it to them.   I might fire the clerk but I'd rather not get in the cross hairs of a bunch of big time lawyers.

I wasn't picking anything apart. I specifically stated that I'm fine with leaving the tape erased. I just explained how real geography made it plausible that it wasn't.

What is on that tape is not just a civil matter, involving a fall, however tenuous,but a very real criminal one, involving a bribe. That's why Jimmy wants it erased. There is one big time law firm here, and that is HHM. A promise by HHM to hold the shop owner harmless for Chuck's fall might go a long ways in making the shop owner inclined to cooperate. Also, HHM's standing in the local legal community would make it easy for HHM to enlist the help of Albuquerque's police department, for a fraud investigation. Lance might be the type to stand up to the police asking questions for about 5 minutes, and from there you get a warrant for the video tape really fast.

Again, there's a reason Jimmy paid Lance a bribe, and paying the bribe itself has the plausible potential to cause huge problems. In Gilliganland, nothing, or few things, of importance, get done that doesn't involve further complications.

[Dobian]

That is one nutty copy store.

 

Rupert Holmes, lol.  Of all the names Jimmy could come up with, he picks that one.

 

I think I felt it it when Chuck cracked his melon.  Ouch.

 

I loved it when Kim started punching Jimmy in the car.  After defending Jimmy and telling Chuck he was just transferring blame for his own mistake, she clearly knew from the moment Chuck started speaking that what he said was true.  A lesser show would have had Kim blindly believing that Chuck's accusation was baseless and that Jimmy was innocent.  But Kim is smart and this show writes smart characters.

[Bannon]

Seriously? Maybe you are just missing things because you have Chuck=Evil stuck in your head. Its not about Chuck wanting Jimmy as a personal valet. Its about Chuck not wanting to strain his relationship with his brother. Chuck probably would have been fine having HMM send someone to help him instead of having Jimmy

 

 And Chuck refusing treatment for his mental illness does not make him a bad brother. It makes him a guy with a mental illness who doesn't think the doctors can help him because they tell him its all mental (which he doesn't believe)

[/quote

Like I said, we aren't watching the same show. That's ok.

[J----av]

Seriously? Maybe you are just missing things because you have Chuck=Evil stuck in your head. Its not about Chuck wanting Jimmy as a personal valet. Its about Chuck not wanting to strain his relationship with his brother. Chuck probably would have been fine having HMM send someone to help him instead of having Jimmy

 

 And Chuck refusing treatment for his mental illness does not make him a bad brother. It makes him a guy with a mental illness who doesn't think the doctors can help him because they tell him its all mental (which he doesn't believe)

[/quote

Like I said, we aren't watching the same show. That's ok.

 

 Oh we are watching the same show alright. You just seem to watch it differently. I try to not make my opinions emotionally because of my like or dislike of certain characters

[hincandenza]

I'm pretty familiar with Albuquerque. As it happens, Chuck' s house, in real life is about 10 minutes from the Federal, State, and Metro court complexes, and the print shop is in the same area, I believe.  You'd expect lawyers to use a print shop near their offices, or near the courthouse(s), which may all be in the area. Now, perhaps the writers aren't using real geography (and that's fine), but there isn't anything the least bit implausible about Lance and Jimmy deciding to effect the erasure of the incriminating part of the tape after Chuck and Ernesto have come and left. If  Lance doesn't get it erased before the boss arrives, and Lance's boss doesn't stop to look at the bribe (if he's just fast forwarding to the fall), that's believable , but there's reason  Jimmy wants the tape erased. As long as it exists, Jimmy's freedom is in peril. Ernesto is going to tell Howard about Lance's changed statements, that occurred within a very short period of time, and Howard is going to wonder why that change occurred. It's perfectly reasonable to wonder about whether there is any security camera footage, and call the shop owner about it. Again, I'm not making a prediction, and if the writers want to leave the tape erased, that's perfectly believable. It's just as believable that it hasn't been, and it is going to be a McGuffin, even into next season. 

 

As to general issues of credibility, I think viewers sometimes don't remember that Gilligan and Co. have about 10 hours between mid February and mid April to tell their story. No, it isn't believable that Mesa Verde would consider going with a newly started one lawyer shop, no matter how impressed they are with Kim. You can write around that issue, and preserve the conflicts you are going for, but that requires something that the writers don't have, which is more time. Same with more minor plot developments, like Mike's lack of concealment when staking out Tio. Yes, you could take the time to more fully develop a credible means of concealed observation, but that would take time away from something else. What the writers are trying to do here is really difficult.

 

To your first paragraph, I both agree and disagree, which also ties into your second paragraph.  While it's plausible that Lance never erased the tape, it's also plausible- as someone said above, sorry for not sourcing- that there was probably a decent enough time gap that Lance could have slipped back and simply rewound it off-screen before Ernesto and Chuck came in.  My TV instincts just say that, while BB/BCS have surprised us before with a small characters having an outsized impact, I doubt Lance or the copy store will be a key plot point or sword of Damocles over Jimmy's head going forward.  

 

You're right that it could go either way, we simply don't have enough information in what we saw on-screen- which is why I really liked your second paragraph.  As you say, we have to remember that Gilligan has only 10 hours- minus commercial breaks and credits- to tell an entire story arc.  The difference between a good and great writer/creative staff is what things they choose to show, in what visual package, and in what order, to tell not only a story but also convey deeper things under the surface.  It's like the complaint about people never saying "goodbye" on the phone in TV or movies; I like to retcon that, and similar TV oddities, as selective editing: we only see the parts of the conversation the creators felt important, so why waste even 3 or 4 extra seconds on the "Um, okay, talk to ya later... k... bye now" when they could be far better spent on a meaningfully awkward pause in a pivotal conversation?

 

Mediocre shows are chatty, or overly filled with unrealistic exposition speak, or create laughably impossible situations just to force a melodramatic scene later.  Great shows- like BB/BCS- make wonderful use of silence in conversations to tell a human story, or of choosing seemingly odd moments to focus on that yields unexpectedly rich emotional or narrative results.  Gilligan has obviously shown he is a master of that, and what we see are the things he and his creative staff think hit all the important beats of their narrative, while also playing puppet master to the moods/reactions we have over the course of 60 minutes, or 10 episodes, or 2 seasons (so far).  Because of that, there is a two-way trust between creator and audience: we trust they have a vision that will make the journey worth it for us, that they least talked over the backstory and character motivations, and that they do basic technical or professional research for anything vital to the story.  The creators trust in return that we will if necessary meet up on forums like this to fill in backstory details or retcons as necessary to resolve our own lingering questions, but will ultimately recognize the important story points and move on even if there is never a canonical answer.  Like you say, if Gilligan & Co. want Lance to resurface, they can, but we also shouldn't be surprised if we never see him again and should just hand-wave the whole tape situation away as unimportant.

[morgankobi]

We know Jimmy doesn't get disbarred, so there are only so many possibilities to anything involving fingerprints or tapes. Unless we switch to BCS: Crime Scene Investigation next week, I suspect none of this will matter. The business with the tape was likely just to show how thorough Jimmy was being and to maybe show how easily he drug Lance down, even if it was just a small step, since Lance used that opportunity to ask for more money. It only takes a few minutes talking to Jimmy to make someone turn :)

[Irlandesa]

And Chuck's mental illness has not really, at all affected the quality of his work or representation of the client, certainly not enough to be in violation of the model rules.

I agree.  I'm a little uncomfortable again about how people feel like Chuck needs to disclose his "mental illness" to the clients as if having a mental illness immediately makes someone incompetent.  There are millions of people who have a mental illness who operate on a professiona level just fine.  Chuck? Until this show tells me otherwise, is an exceptionally competent lawyer as long as he has control over his environment.   He lives alone and has a supervisor from work with him much of the time.  The only weakness in his system is that he has a brother willing to commit fraud who has access to his house.

 

The reason I put mental illness in quotes is because we also have a situation where Chuck has not been diagnosed as having a mental illness.  If we get picky about what Lance did or didn't see Jimmy doing at the copy shop, I think we need to be picky in that it would be irresponsible and possibly slanderous for Howard or Jimmy or Kim to tell a client that Chuck has a mental illness. They're not psychiatrists. 

 

 

If I were Lance, that tape would be trashed.  If his boss sees him taking a bribe, or anyone does, he could be stuck.  Why should Lance care more about his boss' liability claim with Chuck's injury than his own butt?

Lance didn't seem that tough to me. He was careful to ask if it would get him in trouble. I think faced with an authority figure such as a cop, he'd crack.

 

Something else that strikes me about this episode is how much it must have messed with Chucks head to have Kim choose Jimmy over him.

Yep.  But I think Kim ultimately chose herself. 

[RCharter]

I wasn't picking anything apart. I specifically stated that I'm fine with leaving the tape erased. I just explained how real geography made it plausible that it wasn't.

What is on that tape is not just a civil matter, involving a fall, however tenuous,but a very real criminal one, involving a bribe. That's why Jimmy wants it erased. There is one big time law firm here, and that is HHM. A promise by HHM to hold the shop owner harmless for Chuck's fall might go a long ways in making the shop owner inclined to cooperate. Also, HHM's standing in the local legal community would make it easy for HHM to enlist the help of Albuquerque's police department, for a fraud investigation. Lance might be the type to stand up to the police asking questions for about 5 minutes, and from there you get a warrant for the video tape really fast.

Again, there's a reason Jimmy paid Lance a bribe, and paying the bribe itself has the plausible potential to cause huge problems. In Gilliganland, nothing, or few things, of importance, get done that doesn't involve further complications.

I'm not going to go too deep but

 

1) At this point everyone at HHM, besides Chuck simply believes he made a mistake -- and why would HHM would want to open the can of worms for Mesa Verde to sue them?  Its not like Mesa Verde is going to run back to HHM after the way Chuck behaved.

 

2) HHM wouldn't hold Lance harmless for Chucks fall, because I don't see how they would have any rights in Chucks personal injury.  

 

3) No matter what the tape shows, it certainly doesn't show Lance doing anything that would render him/employer liable for Chuck's injury.  If anything, Chuck was borderline harassing him after he said he didn't see Jimmy and Lance asked him to leave and then he just had an attack.

 

4) The criminal matter?  I don't see one here, you can perhaps claim accessory after the fact, but you would have to show that Lance knew that Jimmy did something criminal.  As far as he knew, from what Jimmy said, this was just a matter between brothers.  There would have to be some level of knowledge, but even objectively, how can anyone prove that Lance knew that Jimmy was doing anything that Chuck said he did?   Screaming, manic acting Chuck....versus Jimmy, who is acting logical and reasonable.  I can see how Lance would believe Jimmy.

 

 

5)  There doesn't seem to be probable cause for a warrant.  Probable cause can't just be based on suspicion, hopes and hunches.  Chuck himself wasn't even saying that a bribe took place -- so I don't understand what the warrant would be based on.  Probable cause to believe that a bribe took place to cover up something that no one can prove actually happened?  

 

I'm not saying it absolutely couldn't happen, but it seems like a lot of hurdle to clear.

 

I do think -- as someone above said, that this will certainly have an impact on Kim and Jimmy's relationship.  There really isn't any pretending for her anymore, there isn't any hiding on the fringes, or just taking checks she isn't going to cash.  And I think she resents Jimmy for putting her in this position, and that the resentment may grow and fester with time.  

Edited April 13, 2016 by RCharter

[millennium]

These episodes are all very watchable and I enjoy spending time in the Breaking Bad extended universe, but jeez, I just wish something would happen.   It's all so low-key.  

[Lingo]

I just rewatched the episode. Watching Chuck lose control in that meeting with the Arizona State Regulator -- especially when the regulator told him to "maybe double-check next time" -- It felt like Chuck was two steps away from turning into the Clock King.  [/batman reference]

Also, the moment that *Kim* really sold it to me that she believed Chuck made a mistake is when he yelled at her "I don't make mistakes!" and she cocks her head back in shock and retorts, "I believe you did." She really sold it in that moment. And then she told Chuck off with real conviction and sadness in her eyes. Great acting my KIM there (and of course by Rhea).

[Bannon]

I'm not going to go too deep but

 

1) At this point everyone at HHM, besides Chuck simply believes he made a mistake -- and why would HHM would want to open the can of worms for Mesa Verde to sue them?  Its not like Mesa Verde is going to run back to HHM after the way Chuck behaved.

 

2) HHM wouldn't hold Lance harmless for Chucks fall, because I don't see how they would have any rights in Chucks personal injury.  

 

3) No matter what the tape shows, it certainly doesn't show Lance doing anything that would render him/employer liable for Chuck's injury.  If anything, Chuck was borderline harassing him after he said he didn't see Jimmy and Lance asked him to leave and then he just had an attack.

 

4) The criminal matter?  I don't see one here, you can perhaps claim accessory after the fact, but you would have to show that Lance knew that Jimmy did something criminal.  As far as he knew, from what Jimmy said, this was just a matter between brothers.  There would have to be some level of knowledge, but even objectively, how can anyone prove that Lance knew that Jimmy was doing anything that Chuck said he did?   Screaming, manic acting Chuck....versus Jimmy, who is acting logical and reasonable.  I can see how Lance would believe Jimmy.

 

 

5)  There doesn't seem to be probable cause for a warrant.  Probable cause can't just be based on suspicion, hopes and hunches.  Chuck himself wasn't even saying that a bribe took place -- so I don't understand what the warrant would be based on.  Probable cause to believe that a bribe took place to cover up something that no one can prove actually happened?  

 

I'm not saying it absolutely couldn't happen, but it seems like a lot of hurdle to clear.

 

I do think -- as someone above said, that this will certainly have an impact on Kim and Jimmy's relationship.  There really isn't any pretending for her anymore, there isn't any hiding on the fringes, or just taking checks she isn't going to cash.  And I think she resents Jimmy for putting her in this position, and that the resentment may grow and fester with time.

Look, we've been politely asked by the moderator to dial it back on the legal details, so I'll simply say I disagree again, with one specific notation. My comment regarding a warrant was in the context of Lance getting intimidated by a query from the police, and admitting that he accepted a bribe. The payment and acceptance of a bribe, in order to effect the destruction of property that neither party owns, is a crime, and would produce probable cause for a warrant to obtain that property.

I'm not going to go too deep but

 

1) At this point everyone at HHM, besides Chuck simply believes he made a mistake -- and why would HHM would want to open the can of worms for Mesa Verde to sue them?  Its not like Mesa Verde is going to run back to HHM after the way Chuck behaved.

 

2) HHM wouldn't hold Lance harmless for Chucks fall, because I don't see how they would have any rights in Chucks personal injury.  

 

3) No matter what the tape shows, it certainly doesn't show Lance doing anything that would render him/employer liable for Chuck's injury.  If anything, Chuck was borderline harassing him after he said he didn't see Jimmy and Lance asked him to leave and then he just had an attack.

 

4) The criminal matter?  I don't see one here, you can perhaps claim accessory after the fact, but you would have to show that Lance knew that Jimmy did something criminal.  As far as he knew, from what Jimmy said, this was just a matter between brothers.  There would have to be some level of knowledge, but even objectively, how can anyone prove that Lance knew that Jimmy was doing anything that Chuck said he did?   Screaming, manic acting Chuck....versus Jimmy, who is acting logical and reasonable.  I can see how Lance would believe Jimmy.

 

 

5)  There doesn't seem to be probable cause for a warrant.  Probable cause can't just be based on suspicion, hopes and hunches.  Chuck himself wasn't even saying that a bribe took place -- so I don't understand what the warrant would be based on.  Probable cause to believe that a bribe took place to cover up something that no one can prove actually happened?  

 

I'm not saying it absolutely couldn't happen, but it seems like a lot of hurdle to clear.

 

I do think -- as someone above said, that this will certainly have an impact on Kim and Jimmy's relationship.  There really isn't any pretending for her anymore, there isn't any hiding on the fringes, or just taking checks she isn't going to cash.  And I think she resents Jimmy for putting her in this position, and that the resentment may grow and fester with time.

Look, we've been politely asked by the moderator to dial it back on the legal details, so I'll simply say I disagree again, with one specific notation. My comment regarding a warrant was in the context of Lance getting intimidated by a query from the police, and admitting that he accepted a bribe. The payment and acceptance of a bribe, in order to effect the destruction of property that neither party owns, is a crime, and would produce probable cause for a warrant to obtain that property.

[RCharter]

Look, we've been politely asked by the moderator to dial it back on the legal details, so I'll simply say I disagree again, with one specific notation. My comment regarding a warrant was in the context of Lance getting intimidated by a query from the police, and admitting that he accepted a bribe. The payment and acceptance of a bribe, in order to effect the destruction of property that neither party owns, is a crime, and would produce probable cause for a warrant to obtain that property.

If the copy center isn't complaining about the destruction of their property, I don't see how anything would move forward.    Its not a crime per se to destroy a tape, it is a crime to deprive someone else of their property, or to knowingly destroy evidence of a crime.  So, if the copy center doesn't complain about being deprived of their property (the tape), and Lance only reasonably believed that the bribe he was taking was in regards to a purely personal matter and not a criminal one I can't see the crime.

 

I hope there isn't too much legal detail in this post....I don't think there is

Edited April 13, 2016 by RCharter

[ShadowFacts]

I probably shouldn't have any sympathy for Jimmy given all of the crap he has pulled, and how many lives he has damaged, but I do.  I just don't see what Kim sees in him.  He has damaged her career, and even though he has tried to fix it by doctoring documents, and doing other stupid things, he just makes matters worse for her.  If he wants to fuck up his own life, then that is on him, but if he truly gives a damn about Kim, he would distance himself from her.  

 

Now, because of his antics, he has set the wheels in motion for his brother being potentially seriously hurt, if not worse, when his brother (Chuck) faints and hits his head in the copy center..

 

I don't exactly have sympathy for Jimmy in this episode's situations, but I see your points about him being a real drag on Kim.  It must have stung him to hear Kim say to Chuck that she felt sorry for them both.  She knows he's a menace to her independent law practice, but she isn't keeping enough distance just yet.  Example -- she knows what he did to the Mesa Verde files, by not just her gut, but by the fact he took off out of bed to tie up the loose ends she suggested.  Mesa Verde's application was sunk because of him, and they think it's because of HHM/Chuck's negligence.  If Mesa Verde knew a fraction of what Jimmy has pulled in his past (and it's possible they may have seen his billboard caper), they'd flip their shit knowing he was sharing office space with Kim, and had access to their files.  Once his latest commercials hit the air, people who come to their place of business will have a hard time disassociating Kim from Jim.  She can not only not trust him to not "help" her, she has to contend with having her "brand" be too much like Jimmy's.

 

Back to Mike for a sec - Nacho bothered me in their scene when he seemed mocking of the good Samaritan.  Nacho now has seen Tio kill someone by shooting them in the face, and recounted how Tuco did the same to another dealer.  Nacho has helped bury an innocent person, and Tio is suspecting inside participation in the hijack.  Nacho better be watching his back--he tried to have Tuco killed, is skulking around meeting Mike--is he sure he isn't being followed?  Anyway, I don't like Nacho's odds for long-term survival.  Like Mike said, not as smart as he thinks.

[nachomama]

If Lance hadn't already erased the tape he certainly has cause now. He could have turned on Jimmy at any point but now that Chuck has been injured he has to get rid of evidence of the bribe, it's one thing to say Jimmy was never there, no harm, no foul. 

 

Realistically, it isn't as easy to get prints as CSI would have you believe. My car was stolen and there were no usable prints. I wouldn't worry too much about prints on legal documents, I would hope a better plot line would sink Jimmy. 

[ShadowFacts]

If Lance hadn't already erased the tape he certainly has cause now. He could have turned on Jimmy at any point but now that Chuck has been injured he has to get rid of evidence of the bribe, it's one thing to say Jimmy was never there, no harm, no foul. 

 

Realistically, it isn't as easy to get prints as CSI would have you believe. My car was stolen and there were no usable prints. I wouldn't worry too much about prints on legal documents, I would hope a better plot line would sink Jimmy. 

 

Yes, I think Jimmy will be sunk with Kim one way or another, probably not via this scenario because she's already in the know.  But fingerprints do spring to mind not because of CSI but because we just saw Mike take pains to wash the hose and then use gloves in making his very successful spike strip.  My guess is Jimmy gets away clean on this caper, tapes, files and all, but is not the victor in any lasting sense -- Chuck has taken a hard fall, and that's going to weigh on Jimmy in a big way.  Just like the end result of Mike's spike strip is weighing on him. 

[Bannon]

If the copy center isn't complaining about the destruction of their property, I don't see how anything would move forward.    Its not a crime per se to destroy a tape, it is a crime to deprive someone else of their property, or to knowingly destroy evidence of a crime.  So, if the copy center doesn't complain about being deprived of their property (the tape), and Lance only reasonably believed that the bribe he was taking was in regards to a purely personal matter and not a criminal one I can't see the crime.

 

I hope there isn't too much legal detail in this post....I don't think there is

Again, I disagree, but I'm not going to pursue it further with you

[peeayebee]

I just don't see what Kim sees in him.  He has damaged her career, and even though he has tried to fix it by doctoring documents, and doing other stupid things, he just makes matters worse for her.  If he wants to fuck up his own life, then that is on him, but if he truly gives a damn about Kim, he would distance himself from her.  

I think we've seen that Kim is very professional in her career, but off the job she can let loose. Jimmy is a fun guy. Of course Kim seems to be coming to the end of the rope.

[Tikichick]

Chuck only winds up creating more evidence of his mental instability if he continues to try to vindicate his infallibility.  It also hands the keys to Howard to push Chuck out of any control at the firm, possibly without the necessity of buying him out.  HHM isn't going to sanction Chuck's witch hunt, there is NO benefit to them to keep the issue simmering, NONE.  Vindication of Chuck isn't a positive feather in HHM's cap.  HHM needs to distance itself from the Mesa Verde debacle.

 

The fact Howard isn't the top guy when it comes to banking regulatory matters doesn't mean Howard is less than capable as an attorney, even though it's a notion Chuck has no doubt fed and fostered over many years.  Even at the top of his game I highly doubt Chuck is the attorney I'd want defending me if I faced the possibility of death row on a murder charge.  Chuck is a research-oriented attorney in love with the details.  There's no way given his recent limitations Chuck has been able to keep abreast of all of the regulatory details that make his heart go pitter pat.  The research wonks aren't generally the best courtroom orating litigators because without painstaking research they aren't able to think quickly on their feet.  HHM appears to be more of a corporate-focused firm -- Mesa Verde, Sandpiper, a massive doc review team -- all of that points to real estate and corporate type law.  Their image has taken a licking with Mesa Verde and Chuck's implosion.  They won't survive the PR nightmare Chuck's need to bring down Jimmy before the bar would require.

 

Jimmy would be capable in many instances of helping me avoid the death penalty, but he could turn off a jury if he decides to roll the dice and heads off on a tangent.  Right now if I were trying to avoid the needle Kim is the one whose number I'd be dialing.  She thinks on her feet and gives nothing away on the outside.   She knows the law -- and understands those who break bad.   

[Tikichick]

At this point Mesa Verde and Kim are the ones in control of deciding if any fingerprinting of documents take place.  Chuck and HHM have no authority to either have it done and could only attempt to push it be done as part of a criminal probe, which ain't happening. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

Chuck only winds up creating more evidence of his mental instability if he continues to try to vindicate his infallibility.  It also hands the keys to Howard to push Chuck out of any control at the firm, possibly without the necessity of buying him out.  HHM isn't going to sanction Chuck's witch hunt, there is NO benefit to them to keep the issue simmering, NONE.  Vindication of Chuck isn't a positive feather in HHM's cap.  HHM needs to distance itself from the Mesa Verde debacle.

 

I don't see how the firm could push Chuck out without paying him his share.  Jimmy certainly wouldn't take that lying down, and I have put my speculation about that in the new thread for speculating about the finale pre-air. 

[Tikichick]

Chuck won't want to give up his stake in the company.  He's now created a situation where he's a liability to the firm.  Howard is in a position to use both of these to force Chuck into simply being a profit-sharing partner, absent any abilities to represent clients or wield power in firm operations anymore.

 

I don't see how the firm could push Chuck out without paying him his share.  Jimmy certainly wouldn't take that lying down, and I have put my speculation about that in the new thread for speculating about the finale pre-air. 

[ShadowFacts]

I don't have any idea how partnership buyouts are handled, I imagine that's all governed by contract.  I think previews that are shown at the end of the episode are technically OK to discuss, but some people dislike it, so I'll spoiler tag

Howard is holding a document and is on the phone saying something like "Are you behind this Jimmy?", so I'd guess it isn't something favorable to Howard and the firm.

[jtallman]

Chuck's psychosis is fascinating. He can apparently power through it occasionally (though not in the copy shop, I guess because he was still worn out from going to the bank hearing and the stress of dealing with the aftermath of *that*). I hope he's not dead.

[Boilergal]

Wonder how long Kim has wanted to go off on Chuck, but couldn't because she would lose her job.  I'm sure Kim had some good pent up rage and it made it that much easier to take the opportunity to make Chuck feel like the screw up with the transposed numbers.

 

I'm going to say that if I worked the midnight shift at the copy shop it would take me about 2 hours before I would quit giving a crap about what people are doing.   I would be doing the nightly chores and only interact when needed - even then I wouldn't be prying into their business.  I'd probably get a lot of reading done.

 

I'm going to guess that the Mike and Saul storylines will intersect at Gus Fring.  Have been wanting to re-watch Breaking Bad - now is a good time to fire it up. 

[BeatrixK]

1.)  THAT SOUND!  On par with last years The American's season premier and they had to fit the dead body in a suitcase.  *shudder*

 

2.)  I totally get where Kim can still see someone in Jimmy...despite him being...well...Jimmy.  He's a 'bad boy', he's charming as hell...and he sticks up for her in a way that probably feels much needed, given cowtowing to Howard and Chuck she had to do and they still relegated her.

 

3.)  Love how they maintain the blue theme for Kim the way they did for Skylar.

 

4.) Get some, Mike!

 

5.)  So not ready for the season to be over.

[Dobian]

Chuck's psychosis is fascinating. He can apparently power through it occasionally (though not in the copy shop, I guess because he was still worn out from going to the bank hearing and the stress of dealing with the aftermath of *that*). I hope he's not dead.

I hope he's not dead either, I want more Chuck.  I like Michael McKean.  I don't think he is, though.

[henripootel]

Wonder how long Kim has wanted to go off on Chuck, but couldn't because she would lose her job.

I was surprised at how measured Kim was.  She saw the truth of what Chuck was saying but absorbed that news while deflecting into this being Chuck vs. Jimmy.  And Kim didn't make it personal until Chuck made it personal, then levelly spoke some truth herself.  

 

All in all, a very powerful scene, well written and acted all around, particularly Michael McKean.   I mean I appreciate Bob Odenkirk and Rhea Seehorn's work here but I really, really want to punch Chuck in the face.  He sees so much of the truth about Jimmy but ignores the fact that he could help his brother rather than just try ensure that he pays for his past transgressions.  I can even appreciate Chuck's side of things without losing sight of his essential assholishness.  Bravo, Mr. McKean, kinda hope Chuck's not dead.  That said, don't think I won't punch a dead guy at his own funeral.  

Edited April 13, 2016 by henripootel

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Chuck has never been interested in "giving up," he wants to personally cause and have a front seat for Jimmy's destruction, all the while complaining that he never thought his own brother would stab him in the back, as if that isn't what Chuck's done for YEARS.

Chuck is an egotist who wants to do whatever he wants with impunity. It's probably why he chose to study law. How dare Jimmy retaliate!

 

 

I'm going to say that if I worked the midnight shift at the copy shop it would take me about 2 hours before I would quit giving a crap about what people are doing.

I doubt that most people in that position would figure that someone wanting to do a time-consuming illegal task will do it where just anyone can walk in on them at any time.

[Hanahope]

My comment regarding a warrant was in the context of Lance getting intimidated by a query from the police, and admitting that he accepted a bribe.

 

I don't see how or why the police would ever get involved.  Chuck can go to the police, complain a fraud occurred, claim the clerk lied about seeing Jimmy, but will the police really do anything?  Will the police really care that one law firm lost a client over a reasonably believed transposition error that everyone else at HHM believes occurred by Chuck? Especially with Chuck acting pretty weird whenever he's around electricity, which he would be in a police department.

 

I love that when Kim told Chuck she believed he made a mistake, there was so many layers. It sounds like she meant Chuck made a transposition of numbers mistake.  But, it also means Chuck made a mistake in how he treated Kim.  Chuck made a mistake in how he treated Jimmy.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Hanahope

[Ottis]

I was surprised at how measured Kim was.  She saw the truth of what Chuck was saying but absorbed that news while deflecting into this being Chuck vs. Jimmy.  And Kim didn't make it personal until Chuck made it personal, then levelly spoke some truth herself.

 

 

I think Kim's choice echoes that proposed to viewers by the series, i.e. would you rather be the person who is highly educated and technically correct all the time but an ass with issues, or the flim-flam guy who is fun, not perfect and has a heart? 

 

I wonder if this assholery plays into why Chuck is no longer married. Not the mental issues, that seems to be an effect that came after a cause. I wonder if his wife left him and then he went wonka. Though he seems to have always resented Jimmy to some degree, even while being right about who Jimmy is.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Ottis

[Ohwell]

Vince Gilligan likes head-banging, because Chuck banging his head reminded me of the guy in BB (can't remember his name but Skyler worked for him) who tripped on the carpet and banged his head on the kitchen counter.  He didn't die but I think he was pretty messed up and suffered brain damage. 

 

Regarding Chuck and Rebecca, I remember the scene where they're in the kitchen and she's making something and he's standing over her shoulder, seeming to see if she's doing things just right, to his satisfaction.  I wondered then if she was tensing up and thinking about  maiming him with a kitchen utensil.  It's just something about how he was watching her prepare the food that made me want to stab him.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Ohwell

[Bannon]

I don't see how or why the police would ever get involved.  Chuck can go to the police, complain a fraud occurred, claim the clerk lied about seeing Jimmy, but will the police really do anything?  Will the police really care that one law firm lost a client over a reasonably believed transposition error that everyone else at HHM believes occurred by Chuck? Especially with Chuck acting pretty weird whenever he's around electricity, which he would be in a police department.

 

I love that when Kim told Chuck she believed he made a mistake, there was so many layers. It sounds like she meant Chuck made a transposition of numbers mistake.  But, it also means Chuck made a mistake in how he treated Kim.  Chuck made a mistake in how he treated Jimmy.

If everyone was so permenantly convinced that Chuck's supposed transposition error caused the Mesa Verde disaster, and Chuck was so powerless to convince anyone otherwise, there would have been no need for Jimmy to go down to the print shop, at Kim's opaque suggestion.

 

Look, I'm fine with that issue not going anywhere, but it seems puzzling to suggest that the writers of the show intended us to think that Jimmy was never in any peril by Chuck's visit to the print shop, because everybody was convinced that Chuck made a transpositional error, and Chuck was powerless to change that perception.

[Broderbits]

If there were to be some kind of lawsuit with regards to the Mesa Verde thing, I have to believe the question of Chuck's competency would arise. He can't bully his way out of every situation. And I can't blame Jimmy for Chuck's accident in the copy shop. Ernesto's supposed to be caring for him, he really should have called for medical assistance when Chuck started showing the strain. It was Chuck's enormous ego and inability to just let things go that got him hurt.

 

And if Kim didn't want to be with Jimmy, she wouldn't. Free will, and all that.

[Deanie87]

I was surprised at how measured Kim was.  She saw the truth of what Chuck was saying but absorbed that news while deflecting into this being Chuck vs. Jimmy.  And Kim didn't make it personal until Chuck made it personal, then levelly spoke some truth herself.  

 

All in all, a very powerful scene, well written and acted all around, particularly Michael McKean.   I mean I appreciate Bob Odenkirk and Rhea Seehorn's work here but I really, really want to punch Chuck in the face.  He sees so much of the truth about Jimmy but ignores the fact that he could help his brother rather than just try ensure that he pays for his past transgressions.  I can even appreciate Chuck's side of things without losing sight of his essential assholishness.  Bravo, Mr. McKean, kinda hope Chuck's not dead.  That said, don't think I won't punch a dead guy at his own funeral.  

 Chuck is 100% an asshole, but at the same time, how much must it suck to always be the one to do the right thing and always take the long way around for half of the acclaim and appreciation, when your younger brother seems to put in 1/2 of the work and, even worse, 1/4 of the care and responsibility and yet always seems reach the finish line, if not first, then at least to the adoration of the crowd.

 

I feel for Chuck, and I feel for Jimmy and I feel for Kim.  I understand all of their motivations and their choices, and whether I agree with them or not, that is really all I want in a drama.  To understand where each character is coming from, even if I hate them or loathe what they stand for.  I think that this show does character driven drama even better than Breaking Bad, and that is saying something.  Chuck is as important to this story as Jimmy, and even more important than Mike, IMO, so I hope that they don't give up on all of that too soon.

[ShadowFacts]

Ernesto is another one who has taken too much abuse from Chuck and needs a new job.  Chuck barked at him when he tried to get him to "take a break"; there wasn't much else he could do.  Maybe Kim can hire him on.  I also thought it was a nice touch that when Ernie called Kim to come get the files, she didn't only change out of her painting clothes, she changed into full business attire, and curled her ponytail. Just to pick up files, from her former employer.  She's so serious about her career, yet she's got this little liability in Jimmy and his bright ideas. 

 

Speaking of . . . of course there has to be the danger of Jimmy getting caught with his hands in the files, or where is the dramatic tension?  He can't skate all the time, he's not that talented and lucky, and the same goes for Mike.  Sometimes it seems the assumption from BB viewers is that Mike is so smart and badass that he can never make a mistake.  He's made a couple whoppers with the Salamancas.  I suppose there is a learning curve as to the brutality of the drug underworld that maybe didn't exist in the same way in Philadelphia.