S04.E18: Eleven-Fifty-Nine

[pizza pizza]

nevermind

Edited April 7, 2016 by hm018

[bijoux]

One last thing before I fall alseep, DD knows who everyone is now. What's he gonna do with that info? I know he won't but he could easily out them and get them all arrested.

 

I don't even know if they would get arrested. I mean, the Green Arrow was hanging around a crime set with Lance while police officers were going about their stuff around them two episodes ago. Supposedly, they're also not killing anyone. Of ccourse, it should be an obvious concern, but I don't really get where the show is going with their public status at the moment.

 

See, this partly why I think her death might not be really most sincerely dead. They seemed...off , the lot of them. Heck, I wonder Nyssa had her whisked away for safe keeping.  I'm

 

Or maybe  Lance and Nyssa set up some kind of way to squirrel Laurel out of town. Maybe his collapse was out of relief that the plan went through. I'm telling ya, I can't shake the sense that something is rotten in Denmark'

I can frankly say that I wouldn't mind this in the slightest. I probably would if I thought there was a minor chance that Laurel would come back to the show, but I don't. So if it turned out that she's just shipped off to WITSEC somewhere, fine by me. I never actually needed Laurel dead, just gone from the show, until they did the flash forward and I certainly wasn't fine with losing anyone else on the team. I should also point out that I don't think this will be happening. Lance, you poor bastard.

[looptab]

@ Felicity as BC: uh...I don't think so.

Edited April 7, 2016 by looptab

[Mars477]

On days I think the show will go ballsy and act way out of the box, I actually think there is the potential for them to make FS a BC. They've already had her in black and kicking ass multiple times. A few training sessions under her belt and a magical chip in her spine.... it could happen. Plus EBR does have the physique and technique to do more action.

 

That being said I have no idea about the final O/L moment, it was a simultaneous bone to the comic people who believe that GA/BC are soulmates and a BIG middle finger to those that disagree with them because they literally used LL as their personal mouthpiece to bless the canon couple they created.

Well, Felicity has already usurped everything else to do with Green Arrow's female leads.  So why not?

[wonderwall]

Well, Felicity has already usurped everything else to do with Green Arrow's female leads. So why not?

Curious, all Felicity has taken was the love interest role... What else did she usurp?

That being said... Yeah no to her being BC. Nope

Edited April 7, 2016 by wonderwall

[looptab]

Well, Felicity has already usurped everything else to do with Green Arrow's female leads.  So why not?

See, you say usurped, I say filled in where others failed. I get being upset, but this is getting nowhere.

[EmilyBettFan]

[Edited by mod because people's reactions to Felicity is FAN. TALK.]

Edited April 7, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[wonderwall]

If she usurped everything else to do with Arrow's female leads then that means she also took over the role as Olivers sister... Ewwwwwwww

[EmilyBettFan]

See, you say usurped, I say filled in where others failed. I get being upset, but this is getting nowhere.

Exactly. If that person was so great in the role they wouldn't have needed 3 different love interests in season 1 to go away from that anti-chemistry duo. They had Sara, Shado, Huntress and McKenna. Make that 4 love interests.

 

[Edited by mod: Fan talk.]

Edited April 7, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Happy Harpy]

DIGGLE!

Diggle and Oliver had lots of scene and they were at odds and my heart broke for both of them. For Oliver when John pointed the gun at him. For John in the hospital. Oh, Oliver's hand on John's shoulder, being the brother he chose against his blood brother.

Diggle and Felicity hugged, yes they did, they hugged, and he actually understood why Felicity broke up with Oliver.

I love Thea, but this moment when just Oliver, Felicity and Diggle were together in the hospital got to me.

Diggle had a storyline that mattered! And there will be a fallout! He's going to have more screentime, people!

 

This is what I want, writers! Gimme, gimme, gimme!

 

Andy Diggle is Krycek and actually a great Rat Bastard kind of villain, since unfortunately and in spite of my love for N.McDonough, Dahrk is now so cartoonish it isn't even funny. But I loved how they dealt with blood family vs heart family, and the references to the past of the show with the blind spot.

 

Cherry on top: Thea, "He's not dad". Oh Hell Yeah!

 

D.Ramsey and S.Amell killed it especially in their scenes together, but P.Blackthorne was the MVP for me and I hope the show won't ever pull another Susanna Thompson and get rid of their finest actor. I concur with the opinion expressed above, he just gutted me.

And my first thought was "Quentin needs Donna, and he needs her now". I cross my fingers so that she'll show her "I raised my daughter alone and did a damn fine job at it" steady side and be the great support he needs. ITA with no more redux of Lance's vendetta. I don't think it will happen.

 

I was out of the loop re:the plot because I didn't watch in weeks but I didn't care since it didn't seem to make much sense anyway. The magic is still ridiculous to me, the mask looks like an old prop from Star Trek, the original series and I fastforwarded the flashbacks. Thank you to the brave boredom fighters of this board who gave me the only important tidbit  about the latter: RUSSIA!

 

In S1 or S2, I'd have begun my post with some "Ding, dong, the witch is dead" and much rejoicing. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that Laurel is dead.

But it isn't because I hate the character anymore. Just, this episode was a last and complete illustration of I've been feeling all along. The writing was imo the best she had (except for her death scene) and K.Cassidy did one of her best work (except for her death scene) and yet it didn't click for me and it left me quite cold. It fell flat, flat, flat and it made everything flat. In the first lair scene especially, I saw three characters/actors with chemistry and Laurel/KC, let's not even talk of the O/L scenes that once more could have worked on the paper but were plagued with anti-chemistry. It never worked and never could have worked. Jmo.

I see the point about her death feeding Oliver and Quentin's manpain, and I understand it. But I fail to see how Laurel's death could have any lasting resonance on the show, except through the way it hurts Quentin and her friends. The only storylines that were ever hers were about herself (love triangle, addiction, her own rise that happened away from TA instead of along with it) or about her relationship with her sister (and still, it was mostly about her own identity). Unlike Diggle with HIVE and ARGUS, she imo was never linked to any of the major players, she didn't have an incidence on any major plot as a character, she didn't have her own crew like Sara did with Sin and later Nyssa; even as the BC she was just part of Not-Team Arrow brawn. The character was never relevant to me in the universe of the show, indeed she was Because Comics, so I don't see how her death could be relevant in the grand scheme of things.

This is why I'm glad she's gone. I feel that the show has suffered from the constant efforts to shoe-horn her in and especially in the last two years, sacrificed what works and what is organic in order to give  artificially more importance to her character. For me, she was a dead weight and they finally got rid of it, it's as simple as that.

 

The death scene was badly handled for me, too, but my first thought was Sara in the dumpster so Laurel got anyway a more respectful treatment. No comparison.

I did chuckle when Oliver was the only one not to say "I love you", because it made me think of the gif when a reporter talks about O/L to S.Amell in an interview at the beginning of S3, and his face falls. The picture was the epitome of unnecessary ridiculousness. The show told me that Oliver and Laurel are friends now, so if she had just said that she was happy he found Felicity, I would have seen it as a parallel to her hoping he had spent more than five years in hell in their first scene together; it would have been about friendship and forgiveness. But bringing the "love of her life" ruined it all and made it about ships.

I agree that it was a bone thrown at those who hoped all along for a BC/GA pairing, leaving them with a "what if/it could have been", but it was a very bad idea to do it in this particular instance. I don't think that it was an attempt at a blessing of the Oliver/Felicity relationship on a meta-level, since imo the showrunners are very aware that it wouldn't work. Same opinion about an in-universe  blessing, since the last O/L scene with a romantic element when was he rejected her after he took her home in S2, moreover Laurel was already showed as supportive of F/O as a couple so why would they need her blessing now (I agree, they don't).

 

Now, not that I want to be a member of the Unpleasable Fanbase, but her death in itself isn't the most important thing to me. The most important is that the writers use this opportunity to go back to basics and get Original Team Arrow back at the center of the show. Because for me, this episode was yet another illustration that Diggle/Oliver/Felicity is the best thing about it and what works the best for it.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[kismet]

And now I want E2's FS to be that earth's BC because the reaction from everywhere would be entertaining. Plus then EBR could kick ass.

[hogwash]

The Black Canary thing has already been a giant clusterfuck. Hopefully that ended with this episode. No need to get Felicity involved.

Besides, I can't take anymore several months of offscreen LOA training/boxing lessons = badass brawler.

[SleepDeprived]

I rewatched the episode (I'm lying, I wasn't paying much attention the 2nd time around, tbh) and the flashbacks are hilarious. #Poppy continues to be terrible, no surprise. But when she shot that guard, it looked like she aimed for his shoulder but the squib effect went off on the dude's chest. Lol.

 

Also, SA seemed to be struggling with carrying KC. I think its his stupid turtle suit being so constricting that he can't lift her properly. Please change the GA suit next year, Show!

 

And because it cannot be said enough, PB is such a good actor. His face at the precinct while he begged to be let out for a little while after he heard about the BC being hospitalized was so very nuanced, not to mention his collapse at the end. So very good.

[bijoux]

DIGGLE!

Diggle and Oliver had lots of scene and they were at odds and my heart broke for both of them. For Oliver when John pointed the gun at him. For John in the hospital. Oh, Oliver's hand on John's shoulder, being the brother he chose against his blood brother.

Diggle and Felicity hugged, yes they did, they hugged, and he actually understood why Felicity broke up with Oliver.

I love Thea, but this moment when just Oliver, Felicity and Diggle were together in the hospital got to me.

Diggle had a storyline that mattered! And there will be a fallout! He's going to have more screentime, people!

 

Cherry on top: Thea, "He's not dad". Oh Hell Yeah!

 

Unlike Diggle with HIVE and ARGUS, she imo was never linked to any of the major players, she didn't have an incidence on any major plot as a character, she didn't have her own crew like Sara did with Sin and later Nyssa; even as the BC she was just part of Not-Team Arrow brawn. The character was never relevant to me in the universe of the show, indeed she was Because Comics, so I don't see how her death could be relevant in the grand scheme of scenes.

 

 

Dig and Oliver were heartbreaking, but in that good way where I care about them and their relationship, and can see where the characters are coming from.

 

Hell yes to Thea renouncing Malcolm.

 

You know, it's really sad that BC never even had a nemesis. Laurel was only targeted for her job in the first season, but never has there been a BC villain. Dig has/had Deadshot and HIVE, and now Andy, Thea got Anarky and now, hopefully, Malcolm. Felicity had the Clock King, the Calculator and Brie. BC is the only Team Arrow member without one. 

And now I want E2's FS to be that earth's BC because the reaction from everywhere would be entertaining. Plus then EBR could kick ass.

E2 is frankly the only scenario where I wouldn't mind Felicity in a mask.

[Mars477]

You'd think that after all of the bullshit the show went through last season they'd think twice before killing another Lance.

[johntfs]

I kind of want Paul Blackthorne to get his own magic death statue so he can be Harry Dresden again.  Whether Laurel is dead or gone or the whole thing is a fake-out to drink our tears, I want Katrina Law to come back as Nyssa to avenge Laurel and because she's pissed that she can't "collect the set" sibling wise.

 

As for my overall reaction to the episode, I was okay with it.  There were things that could've been done better, but it's not like this episode was a 9-11 times the Holocaust crime against humanity or something.  Arrow has always been a "B-level" show.  Any doubt about that should've been removed last week when they name-checked the episode title 47 times or so.

Edited April 7, 2016 by johntfs

[lion10]

Damn, y'all are making Mumu work today :D. I think killing off Laurel was a mistake, though I thought killing off Sara in such a shock value way in Season 3 was even worse so...

Removing BC from Arrow because someone needed to fill the grave and the writers weren't sure who it should be is really really dumb though. I mean Pretty Little Liars level bad writing, and that show is the gold standard of bad ideas. It's like killing off Lois Lane or Catwoman.

[looptab]

So, are we to assume Oliver had the Picture of Doom with him in Hong Kong? Did Amanda Waller kindly retrieved it while he was passed out in the Amazo and then handed it back to him?I need to know, haha.

[BkWurm1]

Last words until next week till I say my actual last words

 

I feel your pain.  I've been where you are and it's not fun. 

Did Laurel just get fridged?  I mean, she died because of Quentin and DD's threat to him, not because of who she was and what she did.

I think it's a fine line this time.  She was not just some bystander since she was there fully aware of the danger and accepted the risk she faced as a choice she had made, so that gives her agency, but no one else on TA died.  Only Laurel was targeted for death and that was done to hurt her father and also IMO the rest of the team since they were there to witness it.  Then to make things more complicated, she did not die directly from the stab wound, but from complications from the surgery.  Still, she wouldn't have had the surgery if she hadn't been stabbed, but she wouldn't have been stabbed if she hadn't put on the mask and gone into Iron Height to try and help save the day, thus her death can never be just about hurting her father or being done without any agency of her own.  Could have been a better more heroic death but could have been soooo much worse. 

bijoux, on 07 Apr 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

It also paints the Laurel of the last few episodes in harsher light than I like or need. This mind boggling confession is suddenly casting a shade over her being a supportive friend to Oliver, making it look like she was trying to get an in with him after Felicity left. And I don't know that anyone needed or wanted that.

 

 

Oliver being the love of Laurel's life makes last weeks face touch just as cringe worthy as it seemed to me then, only last week I thought it came from the actress only and now I think it was on purpose and sanctioned and Laurel being too touchy for "just a friend"  Sigh.   It's also really sad that it took Laurel dying for the ban to be lifted on Diggle and Felicity being shown as close.     

 

And now it hits me that Laurel's story about becoming the DA and the difficulty of being Black Canary was not even her own story,  no it was just leading the groundwork for Oliver to be faced with the same issue of Mayor vs Green Arrow.  HAAAAATE!

This stood out to me as significant.  The story conflict for Laurel in this episode is basically the story arc pitch we were given at Comicon last summer before the season ever started.  Which to me it the best evidence yet that Laurel was the show runners top pick for the grave from the start.  The conflict between being her career vs BC really only happened in this episode.  And it's the one they killed her in.  They knew.  They had to know.   

 

 

 

The best option here would have been for the emotional scene to be between Laurel and Quentin and maybe have Oliver find out Laurel's big secret through a video or letter she left just in case something were to happen to her.  The way they set it up was horrible.

 

Or let Oliver have his conversation with Laurel and then send in Quentin and let him get the heartfelt moment and then be there watching her die.  We would have lost the look of knowing passed between Oliver and Lance but I think we would have gained so much more for the trade off.  Or they could have just reversed it.  Quentin is in the room but comes out and from his face the rest of the team finds out what just happened.  Can't really blame plot, just bad writing. 

[lemotomato]

Damn, y'all are making Mumu work today :D. I think killing off Laurel was a mistake, though I thought killing off Sara in such a shock value way in Season 3 was even worse so...

Removing BC from Arrow because someone needed to fill the grave and the writers weren't sure who it should be is really really dumb though. I mean Pretty Little Liars level bad writing, and that show is the gold standard of bad ideas. It's like killing off Lois Lane or Catwoman.

Sorry, but BC is not Lois Lane or Catwoman. Just on the level of popularity and media exposure, she's never been mentioned in movies. The only other live-action TV show she's been in was 4 episodes of Smallville. Even on *this* show someone wore the mask and had the title before Laurel inherited it.

The writers have spent 4 seasons trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and it looks like they were finally tired of it. Am I irritated that they had ONE JOB-- to handle the death of a female character delicately so it doesn't piss off half the audience-- and they massively botched it? Hell yes. Writing out Laurel wasn't a bad decision, but they way they did it certainly was terrible.

Edited April 7, 2016 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

lion10, on 07 Apr 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

There's speculation that Ruve is actually Talia, what do you guys think?

 

Kind of grossed me out that dad's old enemy waited a hundred years and then got with Ra's kid.  That said, I wouldn't rule it out.  No one talks about Talia.  Perhaps she was cut out of Ra's life for choosing love over blood.  Maybe that perceived betrayal was what sent Ra's to crazy town (since he seemed like a nice well adjusted killer in the 1960's)

catrox14, on 07 Apr 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

See, this partly why I think her death might not be really most sincerely dead. They seemed...off , the lot of them. Heck, I wonder Nyssa had her whisked away for safe keeping.  I'm

Or maybe  Lance and Nyssa set up some kind of way to squirrel Laurel out of town. Maybe his collapse was out of relief that the plan went through. I'm telling ya, I can't shake the sense that something is rotten in Denmark'

 

I think in this case the only thing off was the editing and the timing. 

 

SleepDeprived, on 07 Apr 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

And because it cannot be said enough, PB is such a good actor. His face at the precinct while he begged to be let out for a little while after he heard about the BC being hospitalized was so very nuanced, not to mention his collapse at the end. So very good.

 

Yeah, I especially loved what he did at the station.  You could just feel his anxiety skyrocket and yet at the same time he played it down.  That said I think I must have missed how he actually got out of the station.  Last I recall he was begging for them to call Pike.  I assume he just escaped? 

 

 

Damn, y'all are making Mumu work today :D. I think killing off Laurel was a mistake, though I thought killing off Sara in such a shock value way in Season 3 was even worse so...

Removing BC from Arrow because someone needed to fill the grave and the writers weren't sure who it should be is really really dumb though. I mean Pretty Little Liars level bad writing, and that show is the gold standard of bad ideas. It's like killing off Lois Lane or Catwoman.

I actually don't agree about killing Lois or Catwoman.  It all depends on the story being told.  Lois is not  vital IMO at all in the stories where Supes and Wonder Woman are a couple.  There is no particular reason why that version would have to keep LL alive in reserve for the future.  As for Catwoman, she's important to only some version of Batman.  Others she's just another rouge in his gallery.  Even the ones that make her a bit more special, she still isn't that important.  The Black Canary doesn't define who GA is and Catwoman certainly doesn't define Bruce Wayne or Batman.  Lois is the closest IMO to being essential since she the embodiment of his love for humanity but that doesn't have to be the story being told so in that case, she'd be just another back ground player.  There are no sacred cows anymore. 

[xyzzy]

So, does anyone else find it weird that Damian Dahrk is married to a woman named Ruvé and that Neal McDonough's actual wife's name is also Ruvé? I mean, if we were talking about a name like "Elizabeth" I wouldn't be so taken aback, but I was legit confused a few messages back when people were talking about Ruvé. I was all, "Wait, Neal's wife is on this show?!"

 

Anyway. I'm fine with Laurel being dead. There are too many masks on this show. I prefer ensembles where one or two guys/gals do the heavy action lifting and everyone else is logistics and emotional support. That it was rather hamfisted is also fine with me. At least they're consistent.

 

Add me to the chorus of people sending mad props to Blackthorne. Amell really ups his game in scenes with this actor.

[bijoux]

So, are we to assume Oliver had the Picture of Doom with him in Hong Kong? Did Amanda Waller kindly retrieved it while he was passed out in the Amazo and then handed it back to him?I need to know, haha.

You reminded me of something I was wondering about during thee episode. Did Oliver give her the photo back on screen? I feel like I need the history of the photo now.

[bijoux]

Oliver being the love of Laurel's life makes last weeks face touch just as cringe worthy as it seemed to me then, only last week I thought it came from the actress only and now I think it was on purpose and sanctioned and Laurel being too touchy for "just a friend"  Sigh.  

 

There's also the feeling of Oliver being freaked out by it and encouraging her to drop the mask so that she wouldn't be around the lair so much. Which is a really unkind thought to think about a character who was just killed, but I can't deny it. That last conversation really screwed things up. 

[BkWurm1]

10 minutes ago

 

So, does anyone else find it weird that Damian Dahrk is married to a woman named Ruvé and that Neal McDonough's actual wife's name is also Ruvé?

 

I'm pretty sure the writers got the name from NMcD's wife.  They heard it, liked it, used it.  I'm pretty sure he mentioned it at some comic convention. 

 

 

You reminded me of something I was wondering about during thee episode. Did Oliver give her the photo back on screen? I feel like I need the history of the photo now.

 

I think I heard it happened in the comics, which now I'm wondering is what they will be flashing back to in the next episode.  Oliver saying goodbye to Laurel after Tommy's funeral.  Which is appropriated since MG says season one was the end of the O/L romance. 

 

 From the TV Insider interview:  http://www.tvinsider.com/article/84025/arrow-cast-producers-on-the-shows-emotional-death/?utm_source=

 

One of the things we knew people were going to think was, ‘In the season where Oliver and Felicity get engaged and Laurel dies, that’s clearly making a choice about who’s going to end up with who.’ And truth be told, we told the Laurel-Oliver romance story in Season 1. We told that story, and we never really thought about going back to it. So, the ‘shipping thing was not an element.”

 

[looptab]

You reminded me of something I was wondering about during thee episode. Did Oliver give her the photo back on screen? I feel like I need the history of the photo now.

I don't remember that. I don't even remember for sure Picture of Doom's last appearance - I think it was in the flashbacks when Shado asks who Sara is?

 

Honestly I was kinda fine with it when he just magically made it reappear in FB - it was a nice closure to a bit of story then dropped. But the moment he took it out of her pocket..and subsequent scene was a real fuck-up. There was no need for that, and I think with that single mention of Felicity, just moments before dying, they shot themselves in the foot.

Edited April 7, 2016 by looptab

[Cthulhudrew]

I'd be happier about them finally having the Russia flashbacks next season if they hadn't already shown that they don't know what to do with the flashbacks for the last two seasons. :(

[Password]

So...he had that picture in his pocket whilst he and Sara kissed on the ship.

 

Mmmmm.

[bijoux]

Well I mean, he had it on him when he got back to Starling in 2012. I assumed he had it the entire time. Or maybe he stashed in the cave where he hid Poppy and retrieved it once he got back on the island?

 

ETA: I'm pissed at Dig and appalled at Lyla for not only having Andy over in their home on an apparently permanent basis, but also giving him access to weapons. Shame on both of them.

Edited April 7, 2016 by bijoux

[bmoore4026]

.....yeah, she's not dead.  She just going to have a little vacation in the tropics before showing up in the finale.

 

The reason I don't think she's dead is because Oli didn't seem too fucking broken up about it.

[Midnight Lullaby]

MG said Oliver gave LL the pic back off screen in the one of the last episodes of S2, I don't remember which one, but before the final showdown with Slade. Some fans asked him about it and he told them..I got the feeling that at that point of the story the picture lost its meaning since just a few episodes before Oliver was hooking up with her sister and he was about to tell Felicity he was in love with her so they didn't bother to show on screen that he gave it back to her.

[bijoux]

Is this something he shared in the aftermath of this episode or a while ago?

[Midnight Lullaby]

A while ago on tumblr..

[cambridgeguy]

 

Without re-watching & reading the script, I can safely say that I have no idea what was supposed to kill LL because their interventions were all messed up. There was no way they were going to save her during that code, since everything was wrong from the order of their procedures to how they performed it. I know I should no expect accuracy from the writers. But honestly, if they have no clue what they are doing from a medical aspect - they should just have no dialogue just some sad music while the actors move around pretending to do stuff. And remember to do the basics like put the stickers on the actual skin. Or they should just have her be rushed into the trauma room like they did earlier and have her die in there unseen by the camera. I know they wanted their heart to hearts but it made for unnecessary bad medicine.

They also gave up and called it after about a minute.  Don't doctors usually try for a bit longer before calling TOD?  Or was having it at 11:59 pm too poetic an opportunity for them to pass up?

 

 I do think that Darhk was more interested in making Quentin suffer compared to Oliver.  Thea was right there if he really wanted to stick it to Oliver.

Of course now that he knows who everyone (including Lyla and Sara) should be moving into the most secure location possible ASAP. 

[Princess Lucky]

Sorry, but BC is not Lois Lane or Catwoman. Just on the level of popularity and media exposure, she's never been mentioned in movies. The only other live-action TV show she's been in was 4 episodes of Smallville. Even on *this* show someone wore the mask and had the title before Laurel inherited it.

 

Of course BC is not Lois Lane or Catwoman. Because GA sure as hell isn't Superman or (and don't tell the Arrow writers) Batman.

 

I don't understand why Laurel's death scene had to involve her love for Oliver or Olicity. Why was it about romance at all? She had formed closer relatioships with the others (especially Thea) plus there was also her actual father who should have gotten a moment with his daughter.

 

Or, why couldn't Laurel have talked to Oliver as a heroine? Hero to hero? Why couldn't she have said something like "we've had our history, but now I understand why you're risking your life every day, because it's worth it" or some shit like that? About her death ultimately being a risk she was willing to take?

 

She could have still urged him to go be with Felicity, but because she wanted him to be happy, not because "he's the love of her life". What was the point of that line? And the picture thing was just idiotic. The writers trying to come up with something romantic for a pairing that hasn't been romantic in years.

 

I have never liked Laurel/Oliver (because I don't think they had chemistry and because Oliver always treated her like shit) and I think it was unnecessary to bring that up on her deathbed, to act like she still loved him. The writers had done a passable job at making Laurel into her own person for the last couple of seasons, and I was hoping that her death would reflect that. As a Laurel fan, that disappointed me. I wanted her death scene to at least be about her, even if her death wasn't (because she didn't die fighting her own fight, she died because of who her dad was, which is problematic in itself but anyway).

 

Such a bad way to handle this death by the writers. They did everything wrong.

[bijoux]

I don't understand why Laurel's death scene had to involve her love for Oliver or Olicity. Why was it about romance at all? 

 

I have not yet seen a reasonable explanation for it. Sadly, it seems the producers either weren't asked or didn't answer at the Q&A panel after the screening.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Show, come on. I'm trying to care and then the moron is carrying around a picture of herself. I just can't.

Ha, I know, right? When she asked Oliver to bring it over to her, I thought it would be a picture of Sara, but nope, just a picture of herself. That's the kind of thing I expect from Rogelio De La Vega (Jane the Virgin), Siobhan Martin (Ringer), and Jelena Howard (Hi the Floor), not Laurel Lance.

[jay741982]

I think we are forgetting something Oliver is most likely hiding something from his teammates again this time regarding Laurel UGH. It better not be any Damn big secret

[Password]

It's not a secret it's a promise.

[Morrigan2575]

Major Female characters on this show apparently work by the Harvey Dent principle. They either die heroes or live long enough to become a soul sucking parasite feasting off of the bloated mass of the show.

Long time no see. You actually coming back to Arrow now or just going to stick with Sara on LoT?

[looptab]

To "HIS HOME", which is right up there with the mother of his child.

[dtissagirl]

Did Laurel just get fridged?  I mean, she died because of Quentin and DD's threat to him, not because of who she was and what she did.

 

Yeah, she was. DD even told her that he was sending a message to Lance, which reduced Laurel to an object a male villain is removing from the life of another man to cause that dude manpain.

 

They unfortunately kinda set up DD to be the ultimate perpetrator of the Women in Refrigerators trope. His entire M.O. is hurting the people in the hero's lives to cause him pain. Arrow is a show where the people in the heroes' lives are mostly women.

Edited April 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Advance35]

Well I knew the Laurel Lance character was on borrowed time when the Sara Lance character was brought on board and was a runaway hit.  Sara was a better more likeable Canary then LL could ever be.   They then tried to garner sympathy for the character by giving her a substance abuse problem (I remember the writers and SA praising her performances like she would actually come across with more depth then the weakest actress on "Baywatch")  as well as giving her the moral high ground by having Oliver and Sara resume their relationship but the character just always came across both unlikeable and boring.   

 

I think the character should have been killed off long ago and it doesn't even bother me that her last scene was with Oliver and not her father, she could have died at the feet of Damian Darrk.  Such is life in the super hero medium.

 

She just never seemed to mesh with any aspect of the show, she felt shoehorned no matter where she was inserted.  I felt like they really tried.   She didn't fit in at the lair but they kept that train on the tracks, her DA stories and scenes never rang true or contained any kind of conviction.  Her romances were always awkard and bad on a legendary level.   I give the showrunners credit for trying to float a titanic with various life preservers but eventually you've got to say uncle.

 

I have know problem believing the character was still in love with Oliver, even though he had moved on from her long ago (while they were still together in fact).   The heart want's what it wants.  The character was portrayed as being generous in spirit enough to be happy for Oliver when he had found happiness of his own and she claims to have been happy for Felicity as well. Shrug.

 

SA did an amazing job during his hospital scenes.   The man is talented.  Sometimes the montonous flashbacks make me forget that.

 

And I'm going to go against the grain and say it, I liked Felicity's coat in the hospital.  Shrugs

Edited April 7, 2016 by Advance35

[benteen]

I was never a big Laurel fan but I was sorry to see her character go as she had been better lately and I’m tired of the characters deaths/fridgings on this show.  So I did find the scene sad.

 

I do agree though that it did a disservice to the character.  I wouldn’t have had any problem with Laurel and Oliver both telling each other they love one another even while making it clear they had moved on.  They’ll always share a past together like so many people do.  But having Laurel still viewing Oliver as her great love despite how shitty he has treated her in the past (and after finding out recently that he cheated on her again and got a girl knocked up in the process) and spending her last breaths propping up Olicity just makes the character looks pathetic.  I would have preferred Tommy being brought up and her realizing that he was the one she loved the most.  The character shouldn’t have died propping a relationship on the show…that was like something out of Smallville.

 

Agreed her final scene should have come with her father, which was LL’s strongest relationship on the show.  PB nailed that final scene at the end.

 

Geez, Diggle, be a little more cautious about your father.

 

I’m tired of the pointless flashbacks but at least we should only have to suffer through one more season of them.  Russia will obviously be the flashback focus next season.

 

Here’s hoping Oliver, Thea and Diggle get rid of the various shit stains that are plaguing their lives by the end of the season.

DD had a chance to kill Oliver and kills Laurel instead.  Villains being stupid again.

Edited April 7, 2016 by benteen

[theacostov]

It's been four years and we've watched the writers botch Laurel's storylines as a lawyer, as a love interest, as an addict, as a sister, becoming BC. The only time ive liked her is this season when she was allowed to be somewhat useful in like 3 episodes. Everything they've tried with her has come out poorly so I don't know why I thought her death was going to be done much better. It was just badly done, there was a lack of suspense, urgency, the editing was terrible and the dialogue was awful. After next week I hope I never have to see them write for Laurel again.

Laurel's confession of love to Oliver was so cringe worthy. I was so embarrassed for her. I mean it makes complete sense from all we've seen from Laurel over the last few years. It goes back to for me one of the main reasons I could never identify or understand her character. The guy cheated on you with your only sister and she died because of it, how do you look at him let alone think of him as the love of your life. It also just makes you realise why she's been hanging around him all this time. Jeez I wish they allowed her to have some respect and dignity before she died. But yikes.

[looptab]

I had a hard  time figuring out whether Andy knew that Oliver is the Green Arrow, since Oliver kept imitating Batman/growling in his scenes with him, then Dig called him Oliver in front of Andy, then it was back to the growling...and then apparently he had ratted him out to DD, so he definitely must have known.

[Sakura12]

I didn't want Laurel to have a heroic death because I'm still pissed about Sara, but I at least wanted her to have agency in her death unlike every other woman killed on Arrow. Laurel stupidly charging at Darhk would've worked for me. He still could've given his this is the promise I made your father speech as he stabbed her. 

 

I know people don't want Sara on this show again, however Oliver can kill Darhk but I want Sara and Thea to take off Meryln's head together. He was responsible for the Gambit sinking, he brainwashed Thea to kill Sara, he was the one that resurrected Savage and he gave Darhk the idol that gave him the power to kill Laurel. Taking out Merlyn would be saving the world from any other future peril he puts the world through. 

[tv echo]

Arrow Episode XVIII: A New Hope

 

Next season - Bratva!  A new hope for relevant flashbacks.

 

Taiana: If I don't make it off this island, you will go to Russia and find my parents and tell them what happened to me and Vlad. If you don't make it, I will find this Laurel and tell her how you saved us all. Deal?
Oliver: Deal.

 

And Poppy Deathwatch in 3...2...1.

 

Arrow Episode XVIII: The Darhk Strikes Back

 

If Damien Darhk knew that Laurel was the BC, then his wife Ruve must've known it as well when she offered Laurel the D.A. job.  Keep your friends close but your enemies closer?  Now that would've made an interesting Laurel storyline in S5 - D.A. Lance and Mayor Adams playing cat-and-mouse games with each other.

 

Laurel is fatally stabbed by Darhk - not while heroically fighting or saving someone - but while frozen and acting as the passive receptacle of one man's revenge against another man's betrayal.  Moreover, she's stabbed with Oliver's arrow.  That's cruelly poetic.

 

Andy's sudden but inevitable betrayal was such a surprise... said no one.

 

Arrow Episode XVIII: Return of the Photo

 

Laurel's photo returns in full force!

 

Oliver: Listen. Reiter's men outnumber us. We have guns, but so do they, so when we get up there, we cannot hesitate to kill, do you understand? Taiana?
Taiana: Just months ago, I was a dive instructor. Couldn't dream of taking a life. I wouldn't. This place truly is Hell. It makes monsters of us all.
Oliver: Who's in the photo?
Taiana: Me and my brother. I forget sometimes that we were once this happy and this innocent.
Oliver: When I first got here, I used to look at a photo from my past. It helped for a time, reminded me of the person that I used to be, but I'm telling you now that that person wouldn't survive here, and you won't either if you stay focused on the past. Do you understand?

 

Taiana: How do you know how to do this, to bury a man alive? You were right how this island changed you. Do you still look at your picture? She's beautiful. Who is she?
Oliver: Her name is Laurel Lance, and she was my home before this. I don't know what she'll think of the man I've become.

 

Oliver: You kept this? (Holding up old photo of Laurel that he had on the island)
Laurel: Yeah. Just a little reminder of when things were simpler for us - the way we used to be. I'm really glad that you found Felicity, and I hope you find your way back to her. And, Ollie, I know that I am not the love of your life... but you will always be the love of mine.
Oliver: Why are you telling me this? Why now?
Laurel: Because tonight it was just a reminder that... anything can happen, which why I need you to promise me something.

 

Laurel's photo has symbolic meaning for both Oliver and Laurel.  For flashback Oliver, it represented his past, pre-island self and his past, pre-island "home".  For Laurel, it represented a past time when she and Ollie were a couple and he loved her, and when things were simpler.  (My head canon says that she's referring also to a time when she only worried about law school, Sara had not died, and her parents were still together. My head canon also says that Laurel senses that she's going to die.) It's sad and heartbreaking because he moved on, but she apparently did not.  Holding on to the photo reminded her that there was a time when she was the one for him.*

 

(* I guess jbuffyangel was wrong about Sara being the love of Laurel's life.  Also, poor Tommy.)

 

I think Oliver held onto the photo while he was away as a way of holding onto his humanity (a battle which he eventually lost). When he returned to Starling City, he returned the photo to Laurel because he didn't need it any more (it was too late, and he was an emotionless robot). 

 

Deleted Scenes

 

From the promo - Laurel tells Oliver that he knows better than to come between two siblings.  The director probably decided to omit any mention of their toxic, sister-swapping past in the aired episode.

 

From the synopsis - Felicity and Curtis have a heart-to-heart talk.

ArrowWritersRoom ‏@ARROWwriters
We sadly had to cut the Curtis-Felicity heart-to-heart...but trust us it was an awesome scene. #MaybeItllBeOnTheDVD @EchoK @EmilyBett
8:19 PM - 6 Apr 2016

https://twitter.com/ARROWwriters/status/717914777993891844

Edited April 7, 2016 by tv echo

[nksarmi]

After reading three pages of posts since I went to bed (I wonder how many pages it would have been if the mods hadn't hidden some!) - some random thoughts:

 

1. I do NOT under any circumstances want Felicity to take up the BC handle.  She is her own amazing woman and there is no need for her to go there.

 

2. Felicity didn't take anything from Laurel.  The writers - for reasons known only to them - setup Laurel and Oliver as a toxic relationship that I personally would have never bought into or enjoyed no matter who was playing the parts or how much chemistry they had.  The only thing that could have saved Laurel and Oliver for me was changing the pilot so that it wasn't her sister on that boat. I could see her someday forgiving him for a random girl after seeing the changed man he had become - but her sister? No just no - never.

 

3. I HATE that they had Laurel say that Oliver was the love of her life.  They could have made it a little, tiny bit better if she had said "you were the love of my life -- I never let myself find another one. I'm glad you have Felicity" or something like that. But they needed to recognize that no matter how much Laurel once loved Oliver he was grossly bad to her. Why does this show want to have Laurel forget that?

 

4. I agree with everyone who says this show's version of Laurel as Black Canary sucked and was a disservice to the comic book character.  The BC who is one of the best martial artist in the DC comic realm, one of the founders of Birds of Prey, at one point, a leader of the Justice League, and trainer of the Teen Titans most certainly deserved better than this. But again, the writers screwed that up from the start.  The closest they have given us is Sara and if want the true BC - it's her.

 

5. No comic book characters are iconic enough not to kill.  They killed Catwoman/Selina on Earth 2 to give birth to the Helena Wayne Huntress.  I believe New 52 killed Louis Lane to create the super couple of Superman and Wonder Woman.  Them killing BC shouldn't be an issue - it's how they wrote her until now and her final words that are my problem.

[looptab]

 

Just a little reminder of when things were simpler for us - the way we used to be.

Just a little reminder of those happy times when I came to say goodbye to you when you were about to leave on a sex cruise with my sister.