S03.E17: Delaware

[sinkwriter]

 

How is it that Abbie and Crane went to the catacombs to rebuild Pandora's box so they could save the world only to spend the whole time strolling down memory lane of Abbie's previous time there and of course Betsy's death? Sigh.

 

Seriously. I kept thinking, there's no time for this! Quit fucking around and get to it! Your friends on the other side are depending on you to do your part so the Hidden One doesn't rise to power! MOVE IT!

 

And by the end, the only thing coming out of my mouth was: I DON'T CARE ABOUT BETSY ROSS!!!

 

 

 

I do think the chemistry between Beharie and Mison is very intense, so I'm fine with it being part of the show, but just stop the angst and the emo and the insecurity about loyalty and the loss of focus, and just get on with it, is how I feel.

If the intimacy they share is compatible with the missions, that's awesome. It could enhance the intensity, instead of detracting from it.

 

I think if the writers truly care about these two characters, they should skip the stupid Moonlighting Curse paranoia and watch Farscape. That show did a terrific job of allowing the two lead characters to get to know one another, get closer, and organically end up together... and STILL keep on track with their battles with the monsters and creatures and crazy worlds they encountered. The two characters (John Crichton and Aeryn Sun, beautifully played by Ben Browder and Claudia Black) were able to be themselves yet still show growth and change that made sense within the stories told. Aeryn was a badass warrior who did not like or trust John AT ALL, but she grew to have respect for him, and then she started to get to know him better and actually like him, and then she loved him, but never lost her badassery. She softened enough to show emotions and admit her feelings, but was still strong and tough. She never lost that aspect of herself, even as the writers of that show managed to display her emotional growth as a character. The writers of Sleepy Hollow (and any show that's trying to hold off hooking up their leads) could learn a thing or twenty from Farscape.

[sinkwriter]

I will say that I loved the boat ride to the Catacombs and the moment when Crane and Mills take each other's hand before crossing through the barrier. Lovely.

[Clanstarling]

The scenes with Ichabbie on the boat were spellbinding.  Something weird has been going on with Ichabod's hair the last few episodes, but when they were rowing the boat, facing each other, talking about losses and faith and certainty, he had such a rugged handsomeness with a smoldering affection, it was hard not to sigh.

I kept thinking "have they done something special to his eyes?" They seemed far more beautiful and mesmerizing than I remember. Thank you, those of you who posted the photos of Ichabod and Abbie, those were truly stunning shots.  

 

Is it wrong that when Jenny was crying over his body, all I noticed was that she was strategically positioned to hide the nudity of his bathing suit area?

I'm not one to swoon over Tom Mison, but whatever was going on in that boat scene was amazing. Maybe it was that the smoky background made his eyes seem even bluer than usual or something. Heh, or maybe he just looks better when he's really pale?

Yes on Mison's eyes, so very blue. But the pale I really noticed was Joe. That boy has an alabaster body, especially when contrasted with Jenny's dark hair and jacket.

 

Maybe the further inside the temple you go, the slower time moves? Or, time moved the same for Betsy as it did for Abbie...until Betsy decided to pull a Rip Van Winkle. A more extreme version of "I'll just lay down for a few minutes...How the hell have I been asleep for five hours?!" if you will.

Maybe when she (hopefully) goes back to the past, she'll be Washington Irving's inspiration for the Rip Van Winkle story. 

[Sparkling Beth]

 

Maybe when she (hopefully) goes back to the past, she'll be Washington Irving's inspiration for the Rip Van Winkle story.

Clever! 

[Yolapukka]

 

I think if the writers truly care about these two characters, they should skip the stupid Moonlighting Curse paranoia

 

How dumb could these people be anyway if they can't remember that the problem was Bruce Willis and Cybill Shepherd came to loathe each other offscreen and it undermined the interactions that did not rely on testy banter? And that wasn't the only backstage issue that affected what aired on that show. Moonlighting stayed on the air years after it lost it's spark and went stale. Even if they'd never put them in bed together, the problems would have been similar. I do suspect some viewers abandoned the show once their couple was together because they knew it wasn't going to last, since they'd had three flipping seasons of relentless teasing and knew that Moonlighting was going to draw from that tired, dry well again as soon as possible, but they probably would have lost patience with the teasing anyway if they had not got payoff. I think it would have started to bleed viewers no matter what.

 

On Sleepy Hollow, at least, the show does not depend on any will-they/ won't-they tension between Ichabod and Abbie. They don't lose their hook by finally pairing them off. It's still a fun, crazy show without Ichabbie shipping, but their interactions are the best thing about it (for me) whereas the worst is the incessant mania to thrust low chemistry third parties between them. I don't hate Zoe, she was a cute character, but I doubt I'll remember her in another year. I don't hate Daniel, but I don't believe in anything about how he presents himself, the actor is hella hot and charismatic but I eyeroll at the character's romantic overtures. Betsy is miscast and a pointless contrivance that eats scenes that would be more interesting without her. Luke was kind of cranky and Andy was doomed but poignant. Only the Wigstand was worthy of hate and that's not just because she was an obstacle to Ichabbie but due to the way the entire narrative arc, the cast dynamics, the fictional universe and world building were bent and damaged in the attempt to focus on her when she didn't have it in her to carry a show as a significant character or an actress.  Similar to what others have stated in this thread, since we are going to have romance mixed in with adventure, I want to see fun, romantic moments between actors with strong natural chemistry and a discernible bond, not boring timewasters.  Abbie and Ichabod have an adult, warts-and-all relationship, they have conversations and amuse each other rather than bicker like spiteful children and it is interesting to watch their bond grow in an organic beleivable way. It is not interesting to see obstacles thrown in their way, just for the sake of throwing up obstacles.

 

Abbie and Ichabod grabbing each other's hands is worth a thousand soulful gazes from extraneous pretty people. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by yuggapukka

[HalcyonDays]

I kept thinking "have they done something special to his eyes?" They seemed far more beautiful and mesmerizing than I remember. Thank you, those of you who posted the photos of Ichabod and Abbie, those were truly stunning shots.

 

I think it was just the lighting and the angle and the windswept hair thing going on. Because his eyes are so light, they sometimes look almost clear, or extremely pale blue. In reality, one of his eyes is actually half green (a slight case of heterochromia).

 

Two years ago, the show released these awesome black and white shots of the cast. One had Mison standing next to a seated Headless (it was an awesome shot). In the B&W, you can't even see Misons' eyes or the pupils at all - they looked pure white. I had never realized that in old B&W photos, that's why certain people's eyes looked ghostly, or that they had no pupils - because they were people with blue or green eyes and the photography at the time made then look like they had no eyes.

 

Two things I just realized. First, that in a "normal" show, they'd have to do a murder investigation for Joe. He's a young guy who recently inherited a ton of money. He's now found dead by a gunshot wound. The gun was provided by Ezra Mills. Now hopefully it disappears and is unregistered and ballistics/forensics can't trace the bullet back to the gun that Ezra owns. Second, the investigation would probably be done by Abbie and Danny because of the above reasons - suspiscious death of a millionaire.

 

Second, many people were upset over the BR "love letter" from the last episode. Except that letter from Betsy wasn't from the real Betsy Ross. It was from the imposter. So while everyone thinks Crane/BR is supposed to be in some type of romantic relationship, that's not the truth. He's always been pretty standoffish with her, and she for most of the season they were just friends. I think they ARE just friends. That letter is meaningless in that is it NOT how the real BR feels. Not that I care, but I just realized this.

[bethy]

I thought the letter was one she left before she went with Washington. Of course I haven't actually gotten myself to watch this week's episode, so I'm not even sure who this imposter BR is everyone is talking about. :)

[HalcyonDays]

I thought the letter was one she left before she went with Washington. Of course I haven't actually gotten myself to watch this week's episode, so I'm not even sure who this imposter BR is everyone is talking about. :)

 

From what I understand (and correct me if I am wrong), BR was trapped in the catacombs, but another BR came back to the present with Washington. So an imposter came back out and took her place. The letter was written to Crane after the imposter came back, to basically throw him off the trail that this BR WAS an imposter.

 

From Joe Webb's twitter.

 

@JoeWebb13 Joe, did a fake Betsy come back from catacombs in 1700's? Or did C just not see or hear from her? But C said 1 letter. Confused.

 

Joe Webb ‏@JoeWebb13 Apr 2

Joe Webb Retweeted Tennie D. Weaver

Yes. Right now, it's definitely confusing. But it will make much more sense after next week's episode. #SleepyHollow

[rubyred]

How dumb could these people be anyway if they can't remember that the problem was Bruce Willis and Cybill Shepherd came to loathe each other offscreen and it undermined the interactions that did not rely on testy banter. And that wasn't the only backstage problem that affected what aired on that show. Moonlighting stayed on the air years after it lost it's spark and went stale. Even if they'd never put them in bed together the problems would have been similar. I do suspect some viewers abandoned the show once their couple was together because they knew it wasn't going to last, since they'd had three flipping seasons of relentless teasing and knew that Moonlighting was going to draw from that tired dry well again as soon as possible but they probably would have lost patience with the teasing anyway if they had not got payoff. I think it would have started to bleed viewers no matter what.

 

On Sleepy Hollow at least the show does not depend on any will-they/ won't-they tension between Ichabod and Abbie. They don't lose their hook by finally pairing them off. It's still a fun, crazy show without Ichabbie shipping, but their interactions are the best thing about it (for me) whereas the worst is the incessant mania to thrust low chemistry third parties between them. I don't hate Zoe, she was a cute character but I doubt I'll remember her in another year. I don't hate Daniel, but I don't believe in anything about how he presents himself, the actor is hella hot and charismatic but I eyeroll at the character's romantic overtures. Betsy is miscast and a pointless contrivance that eats scenes that would be more interesting without her. Luke was kind of cranky and Andy was doomed but poignant. Only the Wigstand was worthy of hate and that's not just because she was an obstacle to Ichabbie but due to the way the entire narrative arc, the cast dynamics, the fictional universe and world building were bent and damaged in the attempt to focus on her when she didn't have it in her to carry a show as a significant character or an actress.  Similar to what others have stated in this thread, since we are going to have romance mixed in with adventure, I want to see fun, romantic moments between actors with strong natural chemistry and a discernible bond, not boring timewasters.  Abbie and Ichabod have an adult, warts-and-all relationship, they have conversations and amuse each other rather than bicker like spiteful children and it is interesting to watch their bond grow in an organic beleivable way. It is not interesting to see obstacles thrown in their way, just for the sake of throwing up obstacles.

 

Abbie and Ichabod grabbing each others hands is worth a thousand soulful gazes from extraneous pretty people. 

Co-sign on all of this. And I might add, at this point the show doesn't need to amp up an "Ichabbie Romance." The foundation of their relationship has already been established (Witness BondTM), they already live together, and they trust each other implicitly. A few scenes of them hanging out is enough for the fanship to fill in the gaps, witness the tumblr gifs of them just looking at each other, never mind touching. The show doesn't have to turn into a kooky fish-out-of-water romance between a Colonial Brit and a contemporary PoC with a side order of Saving the World. These writers suck at romance anyway so all they need to do is let a few scenes breathe and Mison and Beharie's chem will fill in the gaps.

 

BUT -- IMO the romance aspect would actually make the show more fun, IN THE BACKGROUND. I want them to get back to battling evil. I want more moments like Headless with a semiautomatic, and Andy's head turning right 'round, and Ben Franklin getting beheaded. I want to see Orion back.

 

I think they have to get rid of Betsy because I can't see this show morphing into "Betsy Ross is a fish out of water!" Can you imaging NR trying to pull off the scenes Mison did in the pilot, like the shower, or discovering doughnut holes? Ugggh.

[Yolapukka]

 

I thought the letter was one she left before she went with Washington. Of course I haven't actually gotten myself to watch this week's episode, so I'm not even sure who this imposter BR is everyone is talking about. :)

 

I'm not sure she was an impostor, right now that's still an unconfirmed possibility based on the reveal that Betsy remained in the catacombs. The other possibility is she eventually returned to her own time rather than emerging into the present day and remaining there. 

 

I want to see Orion back.

 

Yes!!!!!!!

Edited April 3, 2016 by yuggapukka

[Mrs OldManBalls]

Yes on Mison's eyes, so very blue. But the pale I really noticed was Joe. That boy has an alabaster body, especially when contrasted with Jenny's dark hair and jacket.

 

As sad as I was he died, I did have to laugh at that whiteness. i don't think i've ever seen someone that pale. And the overhead shot and Jenny's strategic placement so Joe's (and ZA's) modesty was preserved. 

[cynic]

Huh. I was assuming that Betsy would be returning to her own time upon leaving the catacombs and that maybe she wrote the letter to past Crane because she knew that Crane was destined to marry Katrina, have his encounter with Headless, and wake up in the 21st century (and meet his true love Abbie :)).

If Betsy's life was taken over by an imposter, that makes me think Nikki Reed is coming to the present. If that's true, I will not be joining y'all for season four (if there is a season four ).

[DeLurker]

Yes on Mison's eyes, so very blue. But the pale I really noticed was Joe. That boy has an alabaster body, especially when contrasted with Jenny's dark hair and jacket.

Oh Joe was whiter than white!  I was wishing they would have at least given him a rub down with some self tanner to mute the glare. 

 

I thought the letter was one she left before she went with Washington. Of course I haven't actually gotten myself to watch this week's episode, so I'm not even sure who this imposter BR is everyone is talking about. :)

The actual imposter is Nikki Reed (is that the right name?).  She's impersonating an actor.  At this level of ineptitude, it is a felony.

[CalamityBoPeep]

From what I understand (and correct me if I am wrong), BR was trapped in the catacombs, but another BR came back to the present with Washington. So an imposter came back out and took her place. The letter was written to Crane after the imposter came back, to basically throw him off the trail that this BR WAS an imposter.

 

From Joe Webb's twitter.

 

It is confusing, so I could be wrong here (and I haven't gone back to rewatch), but I thought RealBR handed him the poorly voiced-over loving good-bye letter before she went off to the catacombs thinking she might not make it back. Later I thought that Ichabod was referencing one other differently-toned letter he received after the mission, basically saying they'd never see each other again, even as friends even though she had made it back. So... two letters. From two separate BRs.

 

My interpretation of the catacombs thing was that she went down there with George Washington, then for some reason set her cutlass down at the doorway to that room (I thought I saw her bend over to put something down), got trapped, and he picked up the cutlass when he left. I assumed then, that George Washington was the one actually using the cutlass to exit the catacombs. And since they had a stuck Betsy and no way to get her back, (no idea why that would be, since, presumably he also took the flag with him... maybe the Founders all got sick of the way she read her lines too, so they decided to get a replacement while they could)... they, for some other random reason, did a sort of US Marshals witness protection thing in reverse... ie: had someone in the "real world" pretend to be Betsy for the rest of her natural life, leaving real Betsy to sleep it off. Maybe they assumed she'd died or something.

 

But, yeah, they haven't really been very clear on what they're thinking, so I could have it completely wrong.

 

ETA:

 

Oh Joe was whiter than white!  I was wishing they would have at least given him a rub down with some self tanner to mute the glare.

 

 

I just figured they were going for an arterial-bleed-out look... he'd lost a lot a blood in a hurry if that take down ammo shredded an artery. Without blood, everyone starts looking pretty pale, whether their skin tone is naturally ruddy or not.

 

Edited again to add:

 

Or maybe, as others have speculated, when BR leaves the catacombs she goes straight back to her own time, and there was never a fake BR. I bet the Founders were just thrilled.

Edited April 3, 2016 by CalamityBoPeep

[catrox14]

I will say that I loved the boat ride to the Catacombs and the moment when Crane and Mills take each other's hand before crossing through the barrier. Lovely.

 

You know, I could make a case that they got married to each other in this episode.

 

They shared food, like literally drinking from the same cup and eating from the same donut. Abbie brushes the crumbs off his face. Ichabod declares his commitment to their "Partnership". They stare at each other like idiots in love in the boat. They hold hands and walk through the portal that looked...not unlike a wedding arch ...I'm just sayin;...

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[HalcyonDays]

The actual imposter is Nikki Reed (is that the right name?).  She's impersonating an actor.  At this level of ineptitude, it is a felony.

 

Hee. For the win!

 

And since they had a stuck Betsy and no way to get her back, (no idea why that would be, since, presumably he also took the flag with him... maybe the Founders all got sick of the way she read her lines too, so they decided to get a replacement while they could)... they, for some other random reason, did a sort of US Marshals witness protection thing in reverse... ie: had someone in the "real world" pretend to be Betsy for the rest of her natural life, leaving real Betsy to sleep it off.

 

You'd think if they realized it was an imposter, they'd go back for the real thing, though your theory that the founders got sick of her voice holds true weight!

 

I would logically go with: Washington knows BR was left behind, starts making plans to go back and get her, then Fake!BR appears, tells Washington that she managed to escape too, and Washington is satisfied and they all go their merry ways founding a nation. It never enters his mind that it's an imposter.

 

Who knows. The fact that we are going to waste time next week on this "story"...*sigh*

[Dobian]

Now that Betsy is in the present, I wonder if there will be an Ichabod redux where she sees cars, televisions, smart phones, and Chinese take-out for the first time.

[mndpacer04]

Now that Betsy is in the present, I wonder if there will be an Ichabod redux where she sees cars, televisions, smart phones, and Chinese take-out for the first time.

Dear God I hope not!

[catrox14]

Now that Betsy is in the present, I wonder if there will be an Ichabod redux where she sees cars, televisions, smart phones, and Chinese take-out for the first time.

 

I REFUSE to believe the show will do that to the viewers OR Tom Mison and NB. If they did go there, it sure would unite unite ALL of fandom in hatred for the writers. LOL I don't think anyone would appreciate that BS.

 

Plus they did kind of already do that with StruggleWitch so hopefully they learned their lesson....

Edited April 3, 2016 by catrox14

[DeLurker]

Me too, but the ability to compare TMs initial reaction to the present with NR would be gold!

 

I want it as outtakes but not part of the ep.

 

Crane's * slide to the right still amuses me greatly.

 

* literal

Edited April 3, 2016 by DeLurker

[catrox14]

Me too, but the ability to compare TMs initial reaction to the present with NR would be gold!

 

I want it as outtakes but not part of the ep.

 

Crane's * slide to the right still amuses me greatly.

 

* literal

 

Oh you mean just to compare how awful the acting would be? Because as much as I don't like Nikki Reed...that seems...mean LOL

[Rosiejuliemom]

Me too, but the ability to compare TMs initial reaction to the present with NR would be gold!

 

I want it as outtakes but not part of the ep.

 

Crane's * slide to the right still amuses me greatly.

 

* literal

 

I will forever maintain that "Slide to Unlock" is one of the greatest sight gags I've ever seen on television.

 

It would just be cruel to subject Nikki Reed to that comparison.

 

If they could bring Ben Franklin to the present, however, I'd be totally down for that. 

[DeLurker]

Mean?  Maybe so, but NR chose a career where reviews and public commentary are part of the job. 

 

I think my comment about Joe's paleness and glare was meaner.

[WearyTraveler]

Joe was definitely very pale, but the boy had a body on him! Wow! In that shot from above he actually looked like one of the Greek marble statues in The Met.  I didn't think his romance with Jenny was a powder keg, but I liked the guy and the fact that he was a connection to Corbin.  Too bad he had to go.

 

I too have wondered what THO's plan is after he destroys humanity.  Is he going to create another race altogether or will he be content by having any of the other non-human species worshipping him?

 

I'm not a shipper, never have been, don't think I'll ever be, and even I can see how bad the non Ichabbie pairings are.  Also, NR is such a bad, bad actress that I find myself almost hating every scene she's in (or laughing at how bad they are).  Honestly, I wish shipping didn't exist, or that, at the very least, showrunners didn't care about it so much.  When they make the shipping relationships a high priority in the writing, the rest of the stories and plots suffer.  Logically, when people are in a race to stop the end of the world, they would not be thinking about having a weekend smooch at the lake house, or how sad they are about their loss of a friend; they'd be scared, they might even say an "I love you" in case they don't see the other person again, but they'd be running and desperate to get their stuff done, so that the world continues to exist.

 

In this instance, the story suffered because TPTB thought the audience needed to see some romantic scenes (be them about the couple they liked, or obstacles to the OTP). Blergh! As someone posted above, just get Ichabod and Abbie together and get on with it.  Also, I don't believe in the Moonlighting curse.  At least not completely.  I think it's true that part of the excitement of the audience is on the anticipation of seeing a couple together.  But once that happens, it's up to the writers to keep them interesting.  Part of the problem is that writers, apparently, don't know how to write a couple together.  It's not impossible to do, you know?  There are many shows that have couples that are together and they seem to work just fine.  This whole thing is just stupid.

 

In addition, I think writers nowadays need to get on with the times.  What used to work for audiences in the past doesn't work now.  We have seen these things so many times before that it's not thrilling anymore.  Just write a good story and tell it.  Stop trying to write for maximum audience returns by trying to keep so many plot balls in the air.  Commit to a path and follow through.  Most audiences would think it refreshing and tune in, IMO.

[MissAlmond]

Maybe when she (hopefully) goes back to the past, she'll be Washington Irving's inspiration for the Rip Van Winkle story.

 

 

What a great idea!  SH could next do "twist history" where Washington Irving moved a few notches up the ladder as "The Greatest Writer Who Ever Lived"  due to the agony he experienced listening to Betsy's tale. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by MissAlmond

[catrox14]

 

I will forever maintain that "Slide to Unlock" is one of the greatest sight gags I've ever seen on television.

 

It's right up there. I laughed so hard at that. It was brilliant.

[TheRabbi]

I don't care if the finale is amazing or not, if this show scores a renewal, I will not be back next season. Last year I said I would be done due to the lackluster season, but the amazing finale last year caused me to give it another chance. As they say, 'Fool me twice.....you can't get fooled again.'

I find myself just rolling my eyes or multitasking through nearly every scene. Betsy flashbacks, Joe/Jenny scenes, extended expository dialogue, Pandora and THO's boring banter. I've even stopped particularly caring about Abbie this year. I still enjoy Ichabods antics, but not enough to stick around. But here's hoping we end on an engaging note next week.

My prediction: (I haven't watched any previews or read anything) is that Danny will die or sacrifice himself and the end will finally pay off or hint at an Ichabbie romance. For the record, I'm fine with them just being BFF's

Edited April 3, 2016 by TheRabbi

[HalcyonDays]

I will forever maintain that "Slide to Unlock" is one of the greatest sight gags I've ever seen on television.

 

And totally improvised by Mison, which makes me love him (and that scene) even more. Though him ranting at the kids about Paul Revere, before Abbie drags off "Cousin Steve" is a close second.

 

What a great idea!  SH could next do "twist history" where Washington Irving moved a few notches up the ladder as "The Greatest Writer Who Ever Lived"  due to the agony he experienced listening to Betsy's tale.

 

Have Crane 'discover a lost manuscript" written by Washington Irving, when in fact it's really written by Crane today. He could get some old paper, in his own hand writing in ink and quill, it would look ancient, then the show can tell us he gave the "author" that name, because as we know, he loves Washington, and also as a nod to Frank Irving. Then he can auction it off and make some serious coin. Twist the twist.

 

I too have wondered what THO's plan is after he destroys humanity.  Is he going to create another race altogether or will he be content by having any of the other non-human species worshipping him?

 

I'm not clear on it either. So everyone dies, the planet recovers and is only populated by...gods? So who is going to bring him his goblet with wine or cater to his every whim? Lesser gods?

 

Also, the show never showed us where the other gods are? Abbie never ran into them the entire 10 months in the catacombs - unless they live in another plane of existance.

 

I LOVED the scene of Ichabbie crossing the river, but I did like the flashback with Washington and the others in the boat too. Reminded me a lot of TURN.

[jhlipton]

I've got a bit to say and a LOT to react to but I have stuff going on, so.... laterz.

[thuganomics85]

So.... that all happened.

 

This is so weird because last season, I found the majority of the season weak but I remember the penultimate episode being the one where I thought they were getting it back together and it lead to a awesome finale.  This time, I felt the majority of this season was better, but this penultimate episode is the opposite: it is making me think the show could go off the rails again.  I so hope I'm proven wrong next week, but I've been burned way too may times before.

 

But I'll get the most obvious thing out of the way: Ichabod and Abbie managed to get to the catacombs, and who do they find?  Betsy Fucking Ross.  Still alive, still "sexy", and still being played stiffly by Nicki Reed.  That's just great.  Only way they can save this is if this ends with her going back to 1777, taking out her imposter, and just staying there.  Because if this show even thinks about bringing her back to the present, then they have truly not learned from their past mistakes, and Clifton Campbell is no better a showrunner then Mark Goffman was.

 

And, then of course, Joe dies, because the only reason we had this stupid romance between him and Jenny was so she would be forced to kill him, and cry about it. Lovely.  Especially since it started because she foolishly tried to sneak attack the hourglass, even though The Hidden One was right beside it.  But if he is gone for good, this is just probably going to lead to Angsty Jenny, which I'm already getting bored with just thinking about it.

 

Daniels now joins Team Witness and is already bossing everyone around.  Dude, you may be the head of the FBI, but at this point, Sophie outranks you on Team Witness.  Hell, Pandora outranks you!  Shut it.  And maybe it should be Abbie you should tell about you spying on her.  Don't dump you guilt on poor Sophie!

 

Pandora continues to be the best with her eye-rolling whenever Daniels bitched about something and potentially sacrificing herself to give them more time.  So hope she is the one who takes down The Hidden One.

 

This episode was beautifully shot and made great use of the locations and scenery.

 

Papa Mills in the know was a nice reveal.  And him serving with August Corbin and Nevins.  I would so watch a spin-off of those three, as along as they don't recast younger actors and just have Clancy Brown, James McDaniel, and Bill Irwin play them in young age make-up.  Because those three could pull it off!  Then again, any one of them would probably be a better Betsy then Nikki Reed...

[Happytobehere]

Different strokes for different folks

 

I for one, think it would be a total hoot, never mind the eye candy explosions. There is so much to mine from!  I could see them arguing about how to deal with the exact same monsters they have each had. What is the best way to consecrate bullets. Dean and Ichabod could compare notes on time travel and what it's like to live in a different time period from whence you came. It's actually pretty well ripe for a shitload of stories. Hell throw in some Mulder and Scully for the Trifecta! 

 

But luckily, those who would not welcome nor appreciate a SuperSleepy crossover, can rest easy in the knowledge that it will literally never happen because the shows are owned by two competing networks and studios.

 

But that won't stop me dreaming about it or hoping it happens or noticing when SH is basically working from the template started by the XFiles and which carried into SPN. (RIP Kim Manners)

YMMV

 

/off to write those SuperSleepy fics

Sadly, with SN record on treating women and black characters, Abbie and Jennie would die a horrible death by the end of the episode.

[catrox14]

 

Sadly, with SN record on treating women and black characters, Abbie and Jennie would die a horrible death by the end of the episode.

 

In a crossover? No.  If they became recurring characters on SPN there is that chance, but if an actual crossover happened...no....that wouldn't happen.

[blugirlami21]

I never thought that we could have a cbs and cw show do a crossover so anything's possible these days. I wish a fourth season was a sure thing. Makes me wish it was on a network that had faith and a lower rating standard in and for its shows like the cw does.

Ive been rewatching the episode and it's actually a really well crafted episode. It's been a long time since we have had so many ichabbie scenes of them together, talking to each other. Talking about their trials and their losses.

I loved that they talked about how their separation from each other basically drove them mad. How "talking" to each other was the only way they could cope. I don't know about you guys but that's way past a just platonic relationship.

Oddly enough I would be very interested in Abbie attempting a relationship with Danny while having what she has with Ichabod. They're never going to stop being witnesses.

Edited April 3, 2016 by blugirlami21

[catrox14]

 

I never thought that we could have a cbs and cw show do a crossover so anything's possible these days.

 

I think the SuperFlash crossover happened only because CBS & WB co-own the CW. SH is a Fox property owned by Fox and SPN is CW property owned WB, I don't even how what kind of agreements would happen to make that work. Seems nearly impossible. Now if the CW picked up SH then all bets are off.

 

For now, I'll just live in my little fantasy world. LOL

[MissAlmond]

 

I never thought that we could have a cbs and cw show do a crossover so anything's possible these days

 

The "C" in The CW stands for CBS (the W is Warner Brothers) so no real crossover surprises here. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by MissAlmond

[Rosiejuliemom]

I'll just keep praying for my SleepyLucifer crossover.

[Snookums]

Also, did they say who was going by Betsy Ross after she got stuck in the catacombs?  Or maybe they can figure out how to fling her back into the past, so it is her, but changed after that experience?

 

 

This actually makes sense. Betsy could be sent back in time to where she belongs but can't see Ichabod again because at that point she'd know stuff he couldn't know yet, so she just wrote him a Dear John letter and went back to living her life. She'd tell Washington about it, naturally, but he clearly was a man who was good at keeping secrets. 

 

But because this would make sense, it probably will not be what happens. At all. 

 

 

GAHHHHH THIS SHOW. Honestly, during the whole doughnut/cappuccino thing my husband and I were yelling "YOU! ARE! MARRIED!" at the screen and just drowning in eyerolls because there is no way, none, that the writers aren't underlining the ship in red Sharpie pen and sticking glitter and stars all over it, and they just keep dragging this whole Danny/Abbie carcass through the show and stinking up the joint. I guess they were too busy writing a huge storm scene, realizing they didn't have the budget to show it or Jenny getting away from THO, and instead of rewriting anything just went eh, put some fast cuts in there, it'll be fine. 

 

Pandora still seems to have something up her billowing sleeve and I suspect it is all about Pandora. I really hope that if she gets her box reassembled she promptly uses it to trap THO, say "yeah, about that love bullshit? YOU were the one who totally fell for the flower business, dummy. BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL I AM BECOMING THE WORLD'S BIGGEST BADASS!" and just leaving him doing derp faces. 

[Snookums]

Is it wrong that when Jenny was crying over his body, all I noticed was that she was strategically positioned to hide the nudity of his bathing suit area?

 

 

Join me at the Wrong Table, because I was chortling over that the whole scene. That poor bastard having to lie buck naked on leaves on what looked like a very chilly day? I mean I'm sure he had shorts on but UGH. The actor's life--it's up, it's down, but you never know when you're gonna turn into a Windego and end up in your birthday suit with oak leaves in personal areas.

 

I figure a show is on its last gasp when they embed a car commercial in the story.

 

 

That was even more blatant than the last Bond movie, my God. My husband immediately caroled "Like a ROCK!"

[possibilities]

Before she reanimated THO, Pandora was vivacious-- remember her flirting with Abbie?-- so we know her current ennui is a symptom of her situation. Once THO is sent to wherever, and she has her power back, hopefully she can at least have one scene where she does some spectacular shit kicking truth telling ass kickery.

 

Those tweets from ZA are funny. Joe was OK, but Zach is much more interesting. Usually it's the character that's interesting and the actor who is bland (if anyone is going to disappoint) but in this case the character seems to be the blander of the two.

 

I don't think THO had a plan for what happens after he destroys all of humanity. Guys like him just want the thrill of victory. They don't think about the aftermath. The weird part, though, is that the rest of the pantheon isn't really concerned about his antics. As I recall, Greek mythology is full of Gods competing for various ends, and intervening to foil each others' plans. They for sure were interested with the goings on on earth, and often hobnobbed with humans for various reasons. Pandora going solo on this venture seems very out of character for the tradition. I guess they are lifting Pandora and her story out of the rest of its context, and THO is a total fabrication. But it's always struck me as odd that if he was from where he was from, no one else was concerned with his BS.

 

When writers don't know what to do with a couple after they get together, I always think it means they've never had a successful, serious relationship. But you'd think at least they'd have seen one, in real life or in fiction, and could use that as a guide.

[Three]

So much to chortle at in this thread. And so much I agree with.

I think Pandora is generally looking unwell and frumpy. I thought it was THO draining her powers. I bet Shannyn Sossamon is ready to let that look go.

 

Re: TM in Lost in Austen, I thought he was adorkable, but my husband didn't recognize him at ALL without the beard. The voice also threw him, which tells you just how much TM brings it in that department. I've also heard him in a BBC 4Extra drama or two. Because--yes--I'm an 80-year-old trapped in a 40-something body, and a huge radio nerd.

 

I noticed Tom Mison (as in, “ooh, he’s got something”) in quite a few things but didn’t connect that it was the same person – and obviously never cared enough to find out. He was great in Parade’s End (which is fantastic) as the lover of Rebecca Hall. Basically a good looking dimwit.
 

NB and TM are such beautiful people. There are plenty of beautiful people, but they bring so much soul to their characters. I love it.
 

My husband remarked that Crane should be about 1000 pounds by now, as he has 18th century metabolism and his body is not used to high fructose corn syrup, genetically modified foods, refined sugar, and all the other crap we have in our food.

 

Yes, I am concerned about his eating as well. He will be tall and huge. I'm just hoping they don't do too much food product placement if they get another series. Eg. Eat like this and you can be as attractive as me.

 

It's an interesting point. For me, my viewing started off on that non-shipping track, for sure, but when they got off the rails and brought the Wigstand out of purgatory, and started spending time so much time derailing the partnership between Ichabod and Abbie for the Epic!Romance! between Ichabod and Strugglewitch... that's when I jumped out of the "oh so much fun!" mentality and became an Ichabbie shipper. For me, it was like "look guys, if you want so badly to have a romance, at least have one with the people we actually like!" 

 

I don't mind some romance in my rollicking good tales. I very much mind having sucky romance in them. So at this point, I want them to get on with putting the two people I really enjoy together, so we can get on with the batshit crazy stuff. Let their angst be their concern for each other's welfare... "Will my partner survive this horrendously difficult and dangerous mission?"  Not "oh, here's another road-block person... does my partner really love me?"

 

So I come down on the sooner-rather-than-later side of the scale, so the ship can be established and we can get some better saving-the-world storylines. The ship will always be beautiful, even if it isn't on the front burner, just because of the people in it. I don't need it teased and retreating. TPTB started this whole thing with the Wigstand. I'd like them to work through it now, so that we don't have to have random people showing up to make it all fair. It's fair now. Let's go. I say let's lock these two in, and let them get on with saving the world together. Backing off to a platonic friendship at this point would just be asking for all hell to break loose.

 

So much yes to this. This was my shipping journey also. Just get them together, where they’re meant to be, so we can get on with the twistory and the monsters and the adventures. I’m not sure the writers are trolling, although maybe last year before they realized what a mess they'd made of things. I think they kind of got lost feeling they had to drag out the romance. No! Let them get it on and get on with the show!

 

Actually I need to correct that. I shipped them from the first episode. That look they gave each other. But! I became a passionate shipper when they started the Katrina rubbish and then started throwing in all the other stupid no-chemistry couple options.

 

I’ve been feeling mean. Not about Nikki Reed because she is just so out of place in this show, but about the show itself. I still love it. (Although that could change next week.) I do want it to survive.

 

What else do I love?
The history. Sophie. She’s up front, not manipulative, just gets on with things. (I have a theory about Sophie…)
And she doesn’t like bullshit, Danny. Got that? Sad about Joe. If he turned up again I’d be happy. Although get rid of the Jenny love stuff. Would love to see Irving again. If they expand Ezra with a decent backstory I’ll go along with it. I know Caroline’s dead, but I’d happily see her again. More Franklin. More Grace. More twistory. Less Betsy. Actually, no Betsy.
 

I’m going to trust that the story is going in the right direction. I just hope there is enough time for it all.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Three

[Julia]

The product placement could be a positive sign. I've always been pretty sure one of the reasons Bones stayed on the air as the actors got more expensive and the quality plummeted was that the showrunners were willing to shoehorn ads into scenes with exposition so viewers didn't have the option of fast-forwarding. There was one episode which was literally eighty percent the B-cast standing on line to see Avatar, which was opening that weekend.

[MissAlmond]

 

Pandora still seems to have something up her billowing sleeve and I suspect it is all about Pandora. I really hope that if she gets her box reassembled she promptly uses it to trap THO, say "yeah, about that love bullshit? YOU were the one who totally fell for the flower business, dummy. BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL I AM BECOMING THE WORLD'S BIGGEST BADASS!" and just leaving him doing derp faces.

 

I posted it before and I'll post it again:  I  think when THO was regaining his full powers, Pandora soaked power too but remained silent.  Look at her face when THO is all glowing and she's on the ground looking up at him.  It's all part of her plan and it will work because THO is too vain to realize you don't mess with a woman and her box.  #TeamPandora

 

So much yes to this. This was my shipping journey also. Just get them together, where they’re meant to be, so we can get on with the twistory and the monsters and the adventures.

 

 

I've thought this before too.  They know the chemistry is there so just get on with it.   Establish the "natural bond" and make monsters stronger to fight against it.  The money spend on the Zoe's, the Daniel's, the overstayed their welcome Betsy's, could be earmarked for CGI/costume/makeup. Coming up with crazier monsters would make the writers much happier too, since the majority of them are from the whole comic book/sci-fic/fantasy realm and probably why they signed on to SH in the first place.    

Edited April 4, 2016 by MissAlmond

[benteen]

Agreed with an earlier poster.  Pandora was a fun and creepy villain before she dug up her ex.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Joining the chorus of WTFUCKERY was that?

 

I knew the opening scenes were a big giant tease that would go nowhwere, and yet, I snuggled down to enjoy it anyway. Guess I'm a masochist.

 

And I was literally screaming and raging when Danny "joined" the team and took it to mean, he was now the LEADER of the team, which, no, arsehole, you're not.  Just take several million gazillion seats.  This is NOT an FBI op, you piece of shit.  I was hoping the rest of the team would have said a big Fat NO! when he asked if he could join. He's just a giant waste of space. Just like that person who is supposedly Betsy Ross.  

[topanga]

Co-sign on all of this. And I might add, at this point the show doesn't need to amp up an "Ichabbie Romance." The foundation of their relationship has already been established (Witness BondTM), they already live together, and they trust each other implicitly. A few scenes of them hanging out is enough for the fanship to fill in the gaps, witness the tumblr gifs of them just looking at each other, never mind touching. The show doesn't have to turn into a kooky fish-out-of-water romance between a Colonial Brit and a contemporary PoC with a side order of Saving the World. These writers suck at romance anyway so all they need to do is let a few scenes breathe and Mison and Beharie's chem will fill in the gaps.

 

BUT -- IMO the romance aspect would actually make the show more fun, IN THE BACKGROUND. I want them to get back to battling evil. I want more moments like Headless with a semiautomatic, and Andy's head turning right 'round, and Ben Franklin getting beheaded. I want to see Orion back.

 

I think they have to get rid of Betsy because I can't see this show morphing into "Betsy Ross is a fish out of water!" Can you imaging NR trying to pull off the scenes Mison did in the pilot, like the shower, or discovering doughnut holes? Ugggh.

Great post. 

 

1)  Totally agree. I know some people feel the Ichabbie moments were over the top, I think that has to do with TM and NB's amazing acting and on-screen chemistry. The scene with the coffee and donuts and even the boat scene could have been very cheesy and clunky in the hands of other actors. But our Crane and Abbie made those scenes extremely intimate but vague enough to be able to say, "Yes, they're still in the friend zone...but only technically." 

 

Contrast this to Abbie's scene with Danny. She didn't laugh or smile as she did with Crane, she didn't tilt her head to the side, didn't wipe anything off his face--three times, mind you! It's like Abbie feels some obligation to conjure up romantic feelings for Danny, when her feelings for Crane are right there on the surface. 

 

BTW, I loved Danny's look when Pandora told the Scooby Gang that the Witnesses had to go to the Catacombs together in order to restore her box (tee-hee). The moment was quick, and I had to rewind it to be sure, but Danny gave a quick side eye and neck-roll that reminded me of the time he whined and asked Abbie why Crane had to go everywhere with her. Jealous much? In this case, I think he has reason to be. 

 

2) Yes, Pandora is wily, and she's smarter and more devious than her husband, despite his omnipotence. (Omniscience?). I'll be so glad when she gets her power back to she can fix that wig. It's looking quite frizzy and poofy these days. 

 

3) I was disappointed with BR being alive, but I don't feel the anger that many posters do. I think (I hope) that TPTB are smart enough not to repeat Season 2's mistakes. My guess is that we're being presented with another love triangle which will make the endgame that much more satisfying. (Hurry up and get to some Ichabbie loving, please)! 

 

 

RIP, Joe. I'll miss you. He just had to die when he was finally acting like a badass again. *sigh*

Edited April 4, 2016 by topanga

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

For One Brief Moment, The Gang Really Is All Here On Sleepy Hollow
Then time literally runs out. Who killed it and who got killed in the penultimate episode (of the series?).

[Snookums]

And she doesn’t like bullshit, Danny. Got that?

 

This whole scene with Danny telling not Abbie, but Abbie's friend, about the spying deal, coupled with his auto-takeover of a mission he learned about thirty minutes ago, highlights what Halcyondays posted about last week (http://talea456.tumblr.com/post/141805685420/thoughts-on-sleepy-hollows-dawns-early-light), and underlines the ongoing "subtle not quite abuser like THO is but GIRL, RUN" thing.

 

On the surface, that was a fairly typical scene for a show like this: One character moving the story ahead by telling another character about what he's involved in regarding a third character. We've all seen it a thousand times, right? But that dynamic isn't just familiar to me from TV--it's familiar because it's a terribly common, very very shitty move pulled by many people--of both sexes--as a power play by putting a wedge between their "loved" one and that person's  confidante.

 

Sophie will probably feel that she can't promptly tell Abbie about this huge betrayal of trust because A) Danny's her "friend" and he's "confiding" in her, B) that it's not "her place" to "rat him out", that Danny needs to tell Abbie himself, and C) the dreaded knowledge that Abbie most likely will not believe her, will get angry at her, that hearing this will actually make Abbie defend Danny. It's an oldie for a reason--it works.

 

Guys like Danny? They use not only the people they're in a direct relationship with but everybody else around them as well. Sophie now has a wall in her friendship with Abbie that she will probably (at least initially) feel unable to breach, and that weakens Abbie's ties with her and in theory will strengthen them with Danny. Combine that scene with Danny's I Take Charge! Because That's What I Do! attitude towards the mission? Bad, bad news.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Snookums

[Julia]

Sophie will probably feel that she can't promptly tell Abbie about this huge betrayal of trust because A) Danny's her "friend" and he's "confiding" in her, B) that it's not "her place" to "rat him out", that Danny needs to tell Abbie himself, and C) the dreaded knowledge that Abbie most likely will not believe her, will get angry at her, that hearing this will actually make Abbie defend Danny. It's an oldie for a reason--it works.

 

Oh, it's even a little worse than that, because Danny is her boss, and his not sharing information with Abbie - which he's been doing all season, up to and including the existence of Sophie - is not something she's allowed to question coming from her boss.

[Three]

Yes, when put as above, there are so many red flags re Danny. It's subtle, but it's not okay. If she was my friend I would be concerned. Now I'm worrying about Sophie's safety.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh and if I can add my .02 regarding that look "Betsy" gave Abbie? It came off to me as, Who the FUCK is she and what the FUCK is she doing here with YOU? And looked very petty. Meaning, again, the actress SUCKED at whatever she was directed to do.  As if Ichabod was her own personal property or...something.