The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

[bound for glory]

I love poetic justice..

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan. 

 this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

[Aja]

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan. 

 this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

I'm not attacking their belief system (stupid though I believe it is.) I'm attacking them for doing WAY worse than nothing when their son molested their daughters. However, they certainly are allowed to follow whatever Christian cult they fancy, as long as it doesn't violate the human rights of others. Which it does. Starting with their own family, expanding to entire communities of people they are actively trying to pass laws to oppress. I applaud your service to our country. My dad served in the USAF for 35 years and I'm really proud of that--and I would never suggest legal action be taken against any group simply because of something they believe. It goes against everything my dad taught me. He also taught me about our responsibility as a society to our most vulnerable. Including children.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Aja

[AnJen]

I guess it's up to each state? Most places do ban prostitution but there are certain parts of Nevada where it's legal. The Bunny Ranch is in one of those places and is featured on those Cathouse specials on HBO.

 

Oh dear, I cannot unsee Jessa's resemblance to the Corpse Bride!

 

OMG, the Corpse Bride resemblance! Was this mentioned here and I missed it?? I adore that movie, and the first time I saw a picture of Jessa in her wedding gown I was like "Whoa, why is this so familiar?" and it was only a couple of minutes before I placed it! She looks exactly like Everly!

[Dawn16]

Can I just say it?  (And this isn't directed at anyone here.)  I'm so sick of hearing these people and their defenders spewing crap about "conspiracies" and "persecution".  They act like having their television show pulled is the equivalent to the Romans feeding Christians to the lions.  

I am especially sick of it because I am a Christian.  Some people are out to get them because of specific beliefs that they have publicly shared, but many of us just don't like when people minimize the crime of child molestation.  I have tried to make some of their supporters understand that, but they stick their fingers in their ears and hit delete. 

 

The Duggars and their supporters might also want to remember that there are countries in which people are being murdered or driven from their homes for being Christians.  Those people are actually being persecuted. 

[galax-arena]

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan.
this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

The Duggars' rights weren't violated here. You didn't fight for their right to never be criticized. And if their beliefs were what motivated someone to finally spill the beans about their hypocrisy, well, there's nothing wrong with that either. (Unless you believe that the police report was obtained illegally.)

[Aja]

I am especially sick of it because I am a Christian.  Some people are out to get them because of specific beliefs that they have publicly shared, but many of us just don't like when people minimize the crime of child molestation.  I have tried to make some of their supporters understand that, but they stick their fingers in their ears and hit delete. 

 

The Duggars and their supporters might also want to remember that there are countries in which people are being murdered or driven from their homes for being Christians.  Those people are actually being persecuted. 

Thank you for your post. I am not a Christian myself but I can only imagine how heartbreaking it must be to see all of the beautiful things you believe completely bastardized this way. You're right, there are lots of people who super ready to lump all religious people together and dismiss them, and it's just as wrong. It's another level to this that I'm not experiencing so I haven't really thought about it until I read your post. Sounds to me like you're quite secure in your faith, unlike some other people we come to this forum to discuss. :) Thank you for sharing your perspective!

[Julia]

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan. 

 this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

 

Well, strictly speaking you fought to protect their right to live the way they want short of their breaking the law. But then, you also fought for the right of the couple who kissed outside their home to report that they had broken the law.

 

That said, I agree with you that other peoples' belief systems should be respected. You know who doesn't? The Duggar family, and they're working to change the laws so the government will enforce their views. I think, honestly, they're the ones who need it explained what you fought for.

[truthtalk2014]

I disagree the woman has outed herself.

 

I remember reading the Instagram a while back and she didn't seem to feel outed.  She was very proud of her actions.  I would be as well.

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan. 

 this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

I totally agree.  I only wish the Duggars held the same belief system and were not so fast to robocall and hate on certain groups of people.  Live and let live. 

Edited June 12, 2015 by truthtalk2014

[Churchhoney]

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan. 

 this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

 

Agree. They can live however they want. What they can't do is continue to have a tv show that gives them a national platform and undue power to influence others while they're simultaneously trying to deprive other people of rights in a way that conflicts with the principles of our civil democracy as it's existed from its beginning. If they believe that you go to hell because you act on homosexual behaviors, then any Duggar who feels homosexual attraction is perfectly at liberty to squelch it and marry someone of the opposite sex.

 

Because those desires are biological. So some Duggar might have them. And if a Duggar does have them, that Duggar has a perfect right to believe that they're sinful and to refuse to act on them. More power to that Duggar. He or she will be living according to Duggar religious beliefs. And there's nothing at all wrong with that.

 

What the Duggars can't do, in the America that I believe we created, is seek laws depriving other people of civil rights because their biologies are different from what Duggar religion teaches is permissible. We can't put in laws that allow religious codes to deprive people of civil rights. They would object strenuously if someone tried to enforce principles of Shintoism or Islam or animism through U.S. civil laws. Perhaps to the Duggars' surprise, however, the same goes for the principles of their religion.They have a perfect right to live by their religious code. But no right at all to try to enforce that religious code on others.

 

But they have done this. Repeatedly. So losing the national platform that gave them added power to push their unAmerican agenda of fighting against others' civil rights based on their religious beliefs is a just result, in my opinion.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Churchhoney

[bluebonnet]

but thats their beliefs. its on them to live anyway they want. thats the american way. i fought to protect that right in afghnistan. 

 this is america. some people will think different than you and me. there is no need to attack someone elses belief system because we don't like it...

These things go both ways.  They are free to spew hatred and people are free to criticize their hatred.  They are free to portrayed an inflated persecution complex, we are free to mock and eye roll.  

[JenCarroll]

The remedy for controversial or offensive speech is more speech, not suppression of it.

[Sew Sumi]

The remedy for controversial or offensive speech is more speech, not suppression of it.

Someone should tell that to the Duggars/Seewalds/Dillards who delete posts that don't jive with their worldview. Jessa banned me from her Instagram for an innocuous post that I don't even remember making during Kissgate. She and Ben are definitely the touchiest, but the Duggarfam account is not above banning people, either. I guess by doing this, they can continue to pretend that differing opinions exist. Okey doke then...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[neural-plasticity]

Someone should tell that to the Duggars/Seewalds/Dillards who delete posts that don't jive with their worldview. Jessa banned me from her Instagram for an innocuous post that I don't even remember making during Kissgate. She and Ben are definitely the touchiest, but the Duggarfam account is not above banning people, either. I guess by doing this, they can continue to pretend that differing opinions exist. Okey doke then...

Agreed. I think it's funny that they want to be the victims right now because of all the "liberals" and whoever else attacking them and their beliefs, but how many times have they attacked others for their beliefs? I'm all for others having different opinions than me, but it's when people start attacking others and only think their way is the right way that I have a problem.

[Sew Sumi]

InTouch's latest salvo. This time from the Springdale police chief who released the report. She says she's been slandered by Jim Bob and Mechelle. 

 

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/exclusive-arkansas-police-chief-the-duggars-slandered-me-60649

[CofCinci]

My, my, my. The Duggs are no longer going to appear at the Christian Home Educators of Colorado conference next weekend. The statement is here. Which makes me think that their FOX interview(s) didn't totally sell their "we're being persecuted by the liberal media for being Christians!" line to what I'd expect to be a strong bunch of supporters. Hmm. Or, they could be really frazzled and not up for public appearances yet.

The original plan (I looked it up last week) said the whole family would make a "special appearance" with "music" on Friday evening. JB and Michelle were also (individually) featured speakers, and IIRC there was a special $100/person "dinner with the Duggars." Not happening now.

They cancelled a $100/seat event? What will JD do for jet fuel?!!!! Oh, the humanity.

[anony mouse]

InTouch's latest salvo. This time from the Springdale police chief who released the report. She says she's been slandered by Jim Bob and Mechelle.

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/exclusive-arkansas-police-chief-the-duggars-slandered-me-60649

Why is she talking to that rag? That's so unprofessional.

[bluebonnet]

Why is she talking to that rag? That's so unprofessional.

She's not.  Her emails are available under FOIA and the mag put in a request.  

[Sew Sumi]

And given the date of the email and this report, it doesn't appear that it takes long at all to turn around documents under FOIA. So that leads me to conclude with certainty that the Duggars did NOT know what was coming when they filmed Digging In With The Duggars that first Monday of May. 

[TomServo]

Why is she talking to that rag? That's so unprofessional.

 

As far as I can tell, she didn't.  One statement was an email to another government official; the other was from a public statement.

[bluebonnet]

And given the date of the email and this report, it doesn't appear that it takes long at all to turn around documents under FOIA. So that leads me to conclude with certainty that the Duggars did NOT know what was coming when they filmed Digging In With The Duggars that first Monday of May. 

I could have sworn I saw a timeline that was released by the mayor or some other city official about when the FOIA request came in and how long it took to turn around.  It took a bit longer than normal and they had also kept the family apprised.  But I can't seem to find a link to that timeline.  I do recall that it was definitely after that interview.  Though the article I think I'm recalling doesn't mention whether or not InTouch had been in town in early May.  Don't quote me on this, though, as I might just be making up this article in my head.  

[anony mouse]

She's not. Her emails are available under FOIA and the mag put in a request.

Ah, I see. I don't give tabloids my clicks so it was difficult to tell it wasn't said directly with that headline.

As for the FOIA request, I've found that what you're requesting can impact the time it takes to turn it around. Something that requires heavy redaction is going to take longer than general emails. So it's possible they did know.

[Sew Sumi]

Ah, I see. I don't give tabloids my clicks so it was difficult to tell it wasn't said directly with that headline.

As for the FOIA request, I've found that what you're requesting can impact the time it takes to turn it around. Something that requires heavy redaction is going to take longer than general emails. So it's possible they did know.

Point taken. The report was released on the 19th (InTouch published the letter they received; I'm sure it's on the threda somewhere). That means that they would have known as early as 5/4, which was the tape date of Digging In. Would that really take two weeks to turn around? It's really just a matter of redacting the names of the victim, which are very easily ascertained. That couldn't take more than a week, at most. In my world, of course. :D

[Bella]

A FOIA request has to be more specific than "give me everything you have on the Duggars." So there was likely some pre-request investigation by InTouch. Could the Duggars and TLC gotten wind of that, even in the form of rumors?

[JoanArc]

I've read behind-the-scens stuff that says it took about three weeks to bring the story together. It's obvious the family knew on Digging In Day.

 

On another note, now that the source is public, doesn't the police chief have and incredibly good case for slander? Seems like she'd win in court.

[Sew Sumi]

I'm on the west coast and was on vacation the week the story broke, so I don't have a sense of when InTouch put out the first article on the 19th. That article hinted at everything, and I remember posting here that night that there could be quite a libel suit if it was typical tabloid trash. However, we know InTouch got a letter sometime that day. My internet is wonky right now, but it would be interesting to know what time of day that article was posted. Did they have the letter in hand, or did they post on faith that the records would be delivered? 

 

I am wondering at bravado vs. fact. 

 

I would think that FOIA requests are confidential, and the Duggars couldn't be informed until a request is actually fulfilled. I can't see the Duggars knowing before InTouch was informed that they would receive them on 5/19. I think *that* would be against regulations, but hey, between JB and JD, they know most of the force, sans the chief, obviously. 

[bluebonnet]

Here's where I saw the part that the family was kept informed.  

 

"Out of courtesy with respect to the release of information in potentially sensitive situations, the Police Chief directed the family be notified of the FOIA request. The Police Chief further directed that the family be kept regularly informed as to the status of the request; the City’s analysis of the request and any action the City would take with respect to the request, including notification to the family that the City had an obligation under the FOIA law to release the redacted report."

[CofCinci]

Why is she talking to that rag? That's so unprofessional.

I know many consider tabloid magazines to be rags, but they've actually broken many important stories about political figures that maintstream media knew about and wouldn't touch. The National Enquirer was in the running for a Pulitizer a few years ago because of the John Edwards affair/baby story, which shed light on major campaign finance violations that Edwards was later indicted on. It's easy to dismiss these rags when you see a cover about Elvis as a Wal-Mart greeter (maybe he got promoted to Derick's old job) but they've published stories that other media outlets didn't want to ruin political and corporate relationships over. The longer TLC remains in a state of inaction about this family, the more I believe they knew the whole time and just didn't care because millions were being made. The story was most likely suppressed and ignored by major media outlets. InTouch were the only ones bold enough to go forth with the story.

Putting my tin foil hat on for a second: there is a reason why military grade anthrax was mailed to tabloids after 9/11/01.

Edited June 13, 2015 by CofCinci

[JenCarroll]

 On another note, now that the source is public, doesn't the police chief have and incredibly good case for slander? Seems like she'd win in court.

It doesn't seem like she has any damages -- that is, there was no real harm to her professionally or to her reputation -- so probably not.

I think she's taking the high road.

[ginger90]

Here's where I saw the part that the family was kept informed.  

 

"Out of courtesy with respect to the release of information in potentially sensitive situations, the Police Chief directed the family be notified of the FOIA request. The Police Chief further directed that the family be kept regularly informed as to the status of the request; the City’s analysis of the request and any action the City would take with respect to the request, including notification to the family that the City had an obligation under the FOIA law to release the redacted report."

Is this something that would be done for anyone who would be in a report released under the FOIA???

[Cherrio]

Cinci,

 The National Enquirer also found and published the "ugly ass shoes" O.J. Simpson claimed he never owned.  The Bruno Mali shoes with the distinctive soles.

         It was one of the pieces of key evidence in the civil trial.    He was photographed wearing the shoes.

 

As far as the Duggars go, I think paranoia and persecution probably go hand in hand with their religion, maybe even taught as a big part of it.

     I would imagine that its basic Cult 101 to make your followers think like that.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Cherrio

[Twopper]

 

 

On another note, now that the source is public, doesn't the police chief have and incredibly good case for slander? Seems like she'd win in court.

 

It doesn't seem like she has any damages -- that is, there was no real harm to her professionally or to her reputation -- so probably not.

I think she's taking the high road.

Since she is a public official the New York Times rule applies so she would not only have to prove every element of the tort of defamation but also that it was done with malicious intent or reckless disregard for the truth.  She is unlikely to prevail if she sues.

 

[jb0495]

It was obvious the lesbian couple were the instigators from the very beginning. They were very pleased with themselves.

I said it before but I still can't believe how practically giddy they were about getting this information out. As collateral damage, it's basically "ruined" the girls lives. As much as I don't like the Duggar beliefs, I still believe this shouldn't have come out. No one deserves this. Sad for all the children within the upheaval.

I highly doubt they would be able to prove it wasn't with mal intent.

[Twopper]

 

 

It was obvious the lesbian couple were the instigators from the very beginning. They were very pleased with themselves.

I said it before but I still can't believe how practically giddy they were about getting this information out. As collateral damage, it's basically "ruined" the girls lives. As much as I don't like the Duggar beliefs, I still believe this shouldn't have come out. No one deserves this. Sad for all the children within the upheaval.

I highly doubt they would be able to prove it wasn't with mal intent.

The malicious intent is an element of the tort of defamation (libel/ slander) in cases against public officials or celebrities; I don't think the lesbian couple is either of those. Truth is a defense against a defamation suit. 

 

[JenCarroll]

Nobody's suing the informant couple. They didn't do anything illegal, they just told the truth, so their intent is irrelevant. (If they'd made up a lie that got published, it would be different. Legally, you can't be defamed by the truth.)

And the police chief isn't going to sue the Duggars because she doesn't have a case. It's not that the Duggars have to prove it wasn't malicious (intent to do harm), but that the chief would have to prove that it was. And, as I said, no damages.

I don't think anyone's suing anyone; it's just a lot of talk.

[Oldernowiser]

The lesbian couple didn't molest the Duggar girls...Josh did. As for giddy...they may have been quoted out of context and/or they are speaking for a rather large part of the town in being sick to death of living in Duggarworld, knowing what the reality is.

We had an "Extreme Makeover" episode filmed in our area a few years back. The people chosen were painted as these saintly individuals who had no money or health insurance and had two sick children, when in fact it was pretty widely known that relative to lot of people around here, they were in pretty good shape. Both parents had jobs with benefits and she had inherited a chunk of cash from her grandfather a few years prior. As the local culture here is very much about MYOB, no one would have volunteered that. But if someone had asked? Floodgates.

I can see the same thing happening here.

[Gemma Violet]

As much as I don't like the Duggar beliefs, I still believe this shouldn't have come out. 

 

I disagree.  As sad as it is for the girls to be outed, Josh's crimes deserved to be known.  Why should he get a free pass all his life and a cushy job in Washington standing on his high horse screaming about how gay people are a danger to the world when he had this dark secret?  Thank goodness for that photo taken in front of the Duggar's home if that's what started this.  I applaud those two women.

[bluebonnet]

It was obvious the lesbian couple were the instigators from the very beginning. They were very pleased with themselves.

I said it before but I still can't believe how practically giddy they were about getting this information out. As collateral damage, it's basically "ruined" the girls lives. As much as I don't like the Duggar beliefs, I still believe this shouldn't have come out. No one deserves this. Sad for all the children within the upheaval.

I highly doubt they would be able to prove it wasn't with mal intent.

I think it's unfortunate that it became known that five girls were abused when they may not have wanted anyone to know.  If they weren't a public family, then it would have remained relatively private.  The drawback of being a public person is that things about you become relevant to the public.  

 

As far as calculating damage, that's a slippery slope to go down because the number of people's lives that the Duggars had a hand in damaging or destroying is much greater than two girls who have to look for other employment.  While I never would have wanted the public fall of this family to be due to child molestation, I do find myself giddy that they may no longer have the public platform they once had to display their own brand of abuse and hate.  Without even getting into the politics the family was involved in, it's insane that they enjoyed nearly ten years on tv without trouble considering we watched the parents proudly discuss how their older children raise their younger children, abusive practices like blanket training, their issues with modesty stemming from a belief that women are in charge of male sexuality, and much much much more.  Instead of this family being displayed as a warning of what not to do, everything about them was celebrated.  They got exciting magazine covers, morning show interviews, worldwide travel.  Even their TH's in the show were designed in a way to convey that what they were talking about was good and righteous.  

 

How many families and young girls were damaged or destroyed by these messages?  How many were further damaged by the Duggars stance on sexual molestation? Then we have the Duggars frequently and equating certain members of society are child predators, or being voice boxes against family planning and women's rights.  How many are further damaged by this?  

 

I'm downright proud that this couple was able to speak to the right reporter at the right time so that this family can finally be removed from the stage they've been given.  I am in no way giddy that five young girls were victims of abuse and I respect the privacy of those girls who have chosen not to speak about what happened to them.  But I am happy and excited that the media is now portraying this family in an honest way rather than in a celebratory way.  Maybe the Duggars won't be damaging and destroying as many people as they once did.  

[Julia]

I don't feel any particular joy that the Duggar girls have lost what little privacy their parents allowed them. I am, actually, pretty comfortable with the whole country knowing that the extreme religious community which actively discourages exposing women and children to mandated reporters the Duggars have been making a decade of hour-length commercials for has a hidden epidemic of abuse which makes incestuous molestation seem mild by comparison.

Because I'm pretty sure this is the first time Jim Bob and Michelle have mentioned that.

[Aja]

I agree. AFAIK anything said by the police chief and the mayor has been true, and InTouch hasn't lied about the facts either. The city touched all the legal bases when responding to FOIA requests. Nothing to see here, move along.

 

I was writing some thoughts about what the locals think of the Duggars, when Oldernowiser's post above popped up. Well said!

 

I get such a Jerkmaster vibe from JB that I figure he's not generally beloved by the locals. In my experience, people in a small community have fewer "secrets" than they may think they do. But most people are too busy with their own lives and have too much of a "live and let live" or MYOB attitude, to stir up a shitstorm about their neighbors' business. Until said neighbor does something extra-jerky, or offensive beyond the norm - and then, as noted, somebody from the media shows up and asks.

 

Somewhere around here there was an excellent post about JB's hubris, and I think that's what got things to the tipping point for the Duggs. IIRC, the InTouch reporter on this story, said that over the years they'd had some tips about the Duggars, but finally got enough - and enough specifics - that they decided to pursue the story. Let's see:

 

• Groom your son for politics by hauling him around the statehouse when he's a kid.
• Take big bucks to be reality TV stars on a series full of your talking heads about all your righteous family specialness.
• Haul your whole fam damily around making personal appearances and speaking about how to be a godly family, and throw in some family stumping for political candidates who are all about personal righteousness and religion. 
• Sit there as your son takes a highly visible outreach job with a DC lobby group where he'll be out making speeches bashing same-sex marriage.
• Have your wife rev up her Minnie Mouse vocals to record a local robocall raising the specter of CHILD MOLESTATION in public restrooms. 
• To ONCE AGAIN remind the world that you are a manly studly man, and your spouse is hot hot hot for you, and you're both still righteously humping for Jesus all the time? Start a social media thing of people kissing at your property, and be SURE you delete pics of same sex kissers. (BTW, did they check the credentials of hetero couples kissing, or did they let unmarried - gasp! - couples KISS and post their liplocks too?)

 

And do all of this when you have the skeleton of child molestation - of FIVE little girls - rattling rather loudly in a closet in the TTH. And plenty of locals know.

 

What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

Can I ask your dad if you can court me?

[GEML]

If Josh is/had continued to molest anyone, I think there is a duty to let people know. But I really think it's shoddy to destroy anyone's life over something they did in their teens. I fully realize that there are people such as the Duggars who would happily feel that other people should be punished for crimes at that age and under a "law and order" political platform might have fought for that. But this is a huge principle for me - the age 18 should mean something. And just because the Duggars have beliefs and hypocritical actions doesn't mean I'm changing my own principles. I think the report should not have been released, and find people taking glee from it kind of sad.

[msblossom]

Nobody's suing the informant couple. They didn't do anything illegal, they just told the truth, so their intent is irrelevant. (If they'd made up a lie that got published, it would be different. Legally, you can't be defamed by the truth.)

And the police chief isn't going to sue the Duggars because she doesn't have a case. It's not that the Duggars have to prove it wasn't malicious (intent to do harm), but that the chief would have to prove that it was. And, as I said, no damages.

I don't think anyone's suing anyone; it's just a lot of talk.

  

I disagree.  As sad as it is for the girls to be outed, Josh's crimes deserved to be known.  Why should he get a free pass all his life and a cushy job in Washington standing on his high horse screaming about how gay people are a danger to the world when he had this dark secret?  Thank goodness for that photo taken in front of the Duggar's home if that's what started this.  I applaud those two women.

I'm confused. I don't want to sound stupid, but are you saying the informants of Josh's molestation activities are the Lesbian couple that took a photo of themselves in front of the Duggar's property a few months back? I obviously haven't followed this very closely, because I didn't know the media had identified the informants.

[Bella]

 I'm confused. I don't want to sound stupid, but are you saying the informants of Josh's molestation activities are the Lesbian couple that took a photo of themselves in front of the Duggar's property a few months back? I obviously haven't followed this very closely, because I didn't know the media had identified the informants.

 

One member of the couple was interviewed by the Daily Mail and identified by name. The picture was in the article. We have the link somewhere in this massive thread, probably only a page or two back.

Here's the link, btw. The Daily Mail pays nicely, from what I understand.

[JobieLyne]

They (Duggars) seem to think they can poke, pick, judge, and be hateful to other people, and no one will retaliate. That they are invincible. They seem to think they are God's chosen ones. They believe God doesn't make mistakes, but yet somehow he messed up everyone else, and only made this one family of special snowflakes.

[msblossom]

One member of the couple was interviewed by the Daily Mail and identified by name. The picture was in the article. We have the link somewhere in this massive thread, probably only a page or two back.Here's the link, btw. The Daily Mail pays nicely, from what I understand.

Thanks, Bella. I'll take a little break from this forum, because you know real life stuff calls and I come back and realize I miss out on deets like this. Thanks again.

Edited for clarification

Edited June 13, 2015 by msblossom

[galax-arena]

Nobody deserves to have their moral hypocrisy kept under wraps. I also don't have a problem with outing viciously anti-LGBT legislators, even though I'm otherwise against the practice.

 

And as far as Josh being under 18 goes, well, that goes back to the Duggars then, doesn't it? Because if they had followed proper procedure and reported this when they should have, then all of those records would have been sealed and no one would have been the wiser. 

They took the first shot at the gay and transgender communities.

Exactly. You cannot constantly dehumanize and bully and persecute a group of people and then affect outrage when they finally bite back. Gay and transgender people are dying - either at their own hands or others' - thanks to people like the Duggars. So someone snapped. It was about time. I wish the secret had been about something else, that innocent girls hadn't been affected, but the root of all that blame once again goes back to the Duggars, not their LGBT victims who finally became fed up. 

[fliptopbox]

Reading the Daily Mail article and finally saw the picture that started it all. Is it just me or does the Duggar property look incredibly bleak? It's just a giant home with a long driveway and a plot of flat, blah land. No trees. No flowers. No decorations. Not a single colorful or cheerful thing. It definitely looks more like a compound than a warm family home. I would almost think it was deserted if there weren't cars visible in the distance. Very bizarre.

Edited June 13, 2015 by fliptopbox

[frenchtoast]

If Josh is/had continued to molest anyone, I think there is a duty to let people know. But I really think it's shoddy to destroy anyone's life over something they did in their teens. I fully realize that there are people such as the Duggars who would happily feel that other people should be punished for crimes at that age and under a "law and order" political platform might have fought for that. But this is a huge principle for me - the age 18 should mean something. And just because the Duggars have beliefs and hypocritical actions doesn't mean I'm changing my own principles. I think the report should not have been released, and find people taking glee from it kind of sad.

While I agree that young people are still developing and should not necessarily be continually punished, it's a bit much to make Josh out the only victim here. If anything, his parents threw him and his sisters under the bus. I sincerely hope he has changed, but he also portrayed himself as a mouthpiece for virtue and family life knowing what he had done. Unfortunately, his parents have portrayed him as the victim. I understand not wanting to chuck one child to the side--I could never abandon my son in a similar instance--but he for dang sure would be getting treatment.

 

And I wouldn't brush it off as no big deal. If anything at that age, parents should be trying to instill the idea of responsibility and taking ownership of one's actions and words. The law and courts are even starting to try juveniles as adults which may not sit well, but there is the idea that they know right from wrong at that point. Just because it happened when he was a juvenile doesn't mean he can't discuss it now as an adult and what he learned from that. I think that's why I'm not sorry the report was released, even if it doesn't seem fair. He could have taken this and made it better and actually shown how he has overcome his demons. We haven't heard Josh speak yet. I would hope he would admit he was wrong and that his parent erred by covering it up and not handling well. And now, as a parent, he would not behave in the same way. Take the moment and actually do some good by showing how it happens to across all types of families and not dealing with it makes it worse. Instead we get I'm a victim and it sticks in the craw. 

 

I think it's really disheartening to make Josh a victim out of this just because of the age when it happened. It seems to brush aside the people that were targeted and seems to make an excuse that it's ok because he was younger. 

[bluebonnet]

Nobody deserves to have their moral hypocrisy kept under wraps. I also don't have a problem with outing viciously anti-LGBT legislators, even though I'm otherwise against the practice.

 

And as far as Josh being under 18 goes, well, that goes back to the Duggars then, doesn't it? Because if they had followed proper procedure and reported this when they should have, then all of those records would have been sealed and no one would have been the wiser. 

 

 

Exactly. You cannot constantly dehumanize and bully and persecute a group of people and then affect outrage when they finally bite back. Gay and transgender people are dying - either at their own hands or others' - thanks to people like the Duggars. So someone snapped. It was about time. I wish the secret had been about something else, that innocent girls hadn't been affected, but the root of all that blame once again goes back to the Duggars, not their LGBT victims who finally became fed up. 

The bolded is the biggie for me and it really can't be said enough.  The Duggars aren't just expressing an opinion about LGBT rights.  It's not just a simple disagreement about the definition of marriage.  They have been militantly vicious in their stance on LGBT people going so far to declare LGBT people are child predators - child predators are universally despised - while also doing things like working to effectively ban transgender people from using public facilities (banned from peeing!) or risk being harassed or attacked (attacked for peeing!!!) if they do decide to use them.  

 

The real scary and really dangerous thing is that I don't think the Duggars actually understand that LGBTQIA people are dying. Since they isolate, they may be completely unaware that LGBT people are taking their own lives, or are being attacked while going about their daily lives, or are raped and/or tortured in prison, or being outright murdered for existing.  I don't know that the Duggars would change their stance if they were aware of all of this, but certainly some education on their end might go a long way.  

 

ETA: Just to belatedly add on, I think this "LGBT=child predator" with a special focus on gay men and transwomen (who they insist on calling men) also fails to acknowledge that all people can become victims and all sorts of people can be abusers.  The robocall insinuated that only girls can be victims of child predators and they can only be victims of a certain type of person, which is categorically untrue.  Boys deserve just as much protection as girls.  The 'safeguards/punishments' that the Duggars implemented after Josh molested five girls failed to take into account protections for the boys.  They just really need some serious educating. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by bluebonnet

[fliptopbox]

The bolded is the biggie for me and it really can't be said enough.  The Duggars aren't just expressing an opinion about LGBT rights.  It's not just a simple disagreement about the definition of marriage.  They have been militantly vicious in their stance on LGBT people going so far to declare LGBT people are child predators - child predators are universally despised - while also doing things like working to effectively ban transgender people from using public facilities (banned from peeing!) or risk being harassed or attacked (attacked for peeing!!!) if they do decide to use them.  

 

The real scary and really dangerous thing is that I don't think the Duggars actually understand that LGBTQIA people are dying. Since they isolate, they may be completely unaware that LGBT people are taking their own lives, or are being attacked while going about their daily lives, or are raped and/or tortured in prison, or being outright murdered for existing.  I don't know that the Duggars would change their stance if they were aware of all of this, but certainly some education on their end might go a long way.  

Because the Duggars are so intolerant of any opposing views I honestly don't think it would bother them to be aware of that. In fact they might actually agree with LGBTQIA people being attacked, though it might not be something they would publicly admit. They (and most fundie folks of similar beliefs) want the world to fit their small views and believe everyone should think just as they do because dammit they are RIGHT and they are CHRISTIANS!!! Everybody else is headed straight to hell.

[galax-arena]

I don't think the Duggars actually understand that LGBTQIA people are dying.

I think they might be, but like a lot of other anti-gay zealots, they assume it's due to the perversion of homosexuality/transgenderism itself and not how society treats them. I've heard this argument plenty of times: If LGBT people are miserable, it's because deep down they realize how sinful it is.