Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

[Blergh]

Just now, Domestic Assassin said:

My unpopular opinion is that I loved the St. Elsewhere ending. I wonder how large the Tommy Westphall Universe is at this point?

You sure mentioned it in the apt SubForum!

[juno]

20 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said:

My unpopular opinion is that I LOVED the St. Elsewhere ending. I wonder how large the Tommy Westphall Universe is at this point?

Do you know what still stays with me all these years was the episode when Mark Harmon was attacked with the razor blade. To this day it still freaks me out.

[Blergh]

9 minutes ago, juno said:

Do you know what still stays with me all these years was the episode when Mark Harmon was attacked with the razor blade. To this day it still freaks me out.

Well, in that case, you may be consoled by the show's ending premise that the attack and everything else on the show was ALL inside the autistic kid's head via the Snowglobe!

[juno]

28 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Well, in that case, you may be consoled by the show's ending premise that the attack and everything else on the show was ALL inside the autistic kid's head via the Snowglobe!

No, that ending was just really weird to me. Like a throw in, or Orson Wells tribute.

[Bethany]

43 minutes ago, juno said:

Do you know what still stays with me all these years was the episode when Mark Harmon was attacked with the razor blade. To this day it still freaks me out.

Oh same for me!  I loved St Elsewhere (mostly) but that scene freaked me out then and I try not to think about it even now!

[Blergh]

2 hours ago, juno said:

No, that ending was just really weird to me. Like a throw in, or Orson Wells tribute.

Well, I tried. ..

All kidding aside, I agree that it along with the Lost endings were groaners and bummers!

[ABay]

While I loathed season 6 and the final episode with the fire of a thousand burning nuns*, and I disliked almost all of the characters at one time or another, I had a great time on the roller coaster of Lost and would gladly buy another ticket. Late season 3 through season 4 were fantastic and there were parts of 5 I enjoyed a lot. If nothing else, it gave me Ben Linus. I also loved the way it played with narrative, not just the flashbacks and forwards and sideways but beginning consecutive episodes from the same point and following a different character's story from that point.

Having lived through Chris Carter's and Joss Whedon's bullshit as showrunners, I never believed anything Cuse & Lindeloff said about developments on the show and while I was curious about some of the "mysteries" their resolution wasn't the reason I watched. I didn't understand the wailing after the final about having "wasted" years watching it. Did those viewers not enjoy the episodes in themselves, were they just hanging around for the ending? It wasn't a mystery like Veronica Mars or Murder, She Wrote. Being bitter about the ending of season 1 Twin Peaks, that I get.

 

*TWoP lives

Edited January 30, 2023 by ABay

[Mabinogia]

9 minutes ago, ABay said:

while I was curious about some of the "mysteries" their resolution wasn't the reason I watched. I didn't understand the wailing after the final about having "wasted" years watching it. Did those viewers not enjoy the episodes in themselves, were they just hanging around for the ending?

I feel the same. While I wish I had liked the ending better, that the answer to the mystery was more satisfying, I don't regret watching every episode of Lost. I enjoyed many of the characters, and did love the structure of the show, with the flashbacks, flashforwards, etc. I don't feel like it was time wasted. 

I do wonder how it would do in the streaming age since, at least for me, a huge part of the fun of Lost was all the speculation, all the researching, the fan theories, etc between episodes. The excitement that built up while waiting for next week's episode. 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I do wonder how it would do in the streaming age since, at least for me, a huge part of the fun of Lost was all the speculation, all the researching, the fan theories, etc between episodes. The excitement that built up while waiting for next week's episode. 

That inherently assumes that there was a logical connection to make, and that the viewers were going to be rewarded for paying careful attention. This was never the case. I learned the hard way from the X Files. Week to week, it was an entertaining show if you let that pass. And if I'm being fair, when they decided on ending the show, it was more logically structured. 

I enjoyed the 'sideways' timeline, but if we're being honest, it didn't really have anything to do with the show. 

In this streaming age, for one, they wouldn't have 22 episode seasons, so a ton of nonsense on Lost could have been cut out. They would have to have a more coherent plan up front. 

[Kel Varnsen]

My unpopular opinion is that sometimes the Lost finale actually impresses me. Since it is kind of badass that Lindeloff and the writers seemed to realized that there was no way to explain the island at that point in a way that would have made any sense so they just said fuck it and told the story they wanted to tell.

[SVNBob]

12 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

The Lost pilot was extremely cinematic and very well done, certainly pulled me into the show immediately.

I'm the exact opposite.  With all the pre-series promos and hype, I was kind of excited and set my DVR to catch the pilot.  Then when I started to watch it, I couldn't get past the first 5 minutes of it.  I deleted the recording and never watched the series.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SVNBob

[Haleth]

As a complete series I loved Lost, think it was probably the most original series ever.  The mysteries were compelling, the characters were (mostly) interesting, and who didn't love looking for Easter eggs?  However... that last season was a mess.  Everyone running around the island (were they still in different time lines?) and finding mysterious structures and people that no one had seen before.  (Just how big was that island?)  Yeah, the purgatory/waiting room thing was a cop out, but I have to admit I bawled my eyes out at all the goodbyes.  And the final shot.

And we'll always have Nikki and Paolo.

[Kel Varnsen]

20 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

Loved the Lost pilot.  It was like a movie.  Liked the first season.  

Say what you will about JJ Abrams but the guy is awesome at directing show pilots. The Alias pilot is also awesome and could easily have been a movie with some story tweaks. Which looking back is surprising to me that almost all his movie directing work has been big franchise stuff with well established stories.

[ABay]

Was the pilot postponed from its original planned debut? I think it was but don't remember why. Something about a plane crash? It was 3 years after 9/11 so probably not that.

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Everyone running around the island (were they still in different time lines?) and finding mysterious structures and people that no one had seen before. 

To be fair, they did have Hurley say, 'Has this thing been here the whole time?' So even the show knew it was pulling a fast one. I have to respect that. 

With our benefit of hindsight, and I think I've mentioned this before, it might have been a more interesting show as an anthology at different times.

It kind of was at a point. 

Another hitch was that at a certain point in a show like this, TPTBs feel like they need to explain everything. You end up way over doing it and tie yourself in knots. 

Now that I'm overanalyzing (I'm having my first cup of coffee), the tv model at the time didn't do the show any favors. You have to have 22 episodes, so you're invariably getting filler because you have to give characters something to do. 

You also have to know the show you have. It may not be the show you set out to create. What was the show about? The Island. Think how much could have been excised. 

As much as I criticize, it certainly was an original show, and I respect the effort.

"Kate. We have to go back."
*Everyone* lost (ha!) their minds! That entire episode was basically upside down with one line. 

There is something to say about creating a show, movie, whatever, that is so strong in the public dialogue.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

12 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Another hitch was that at a certain point in a show like this, TPTBs feel like they need to explain everything. You end up way over doing it and tie yourself in knots. 

Ya sometimes explaining things too much is how you end up with midichlorians. I mean most movies/shows that use magic and wizards and shit don't really explain how magic works (at least the ones I've seen).

Plus being a TV writer (or actor) is not really a very steady job and I am sure after season 1 ABC was just offering them truckloads of money to keep the show going and I respect that this would be hard to turn down. I mean in the case of the actors Lost didn't really turn any of them into huge stars except maybe Evangeline Lilly.

[DoctorAtomic]

Not huge stars, but I do think most have steady work from the success of the show. 

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, ABay said:

While I loathed season 6 and the final episode with the fire of a thousand burning nuns*, and I disliked almost all of the characters at one time or another, I had a great time on the roller coaster of Lost and would gladly buy another ticket. Late season 3 through season 4 were fantastic and there were parts of 5 I enjoyed a lot. If nothing else, it gave me Ben Linus. I also loved the way it played with narrative, not just the flashbacks and forwards and sideways but beginning consecutive episodes from the same point and following a different character's story from that point.

 

Yeah, one good thing about Lost is that as much as I thought the ending was a total nothing, it wasn't the kind of ending that retroactively ruined the show for me. There are some endings that really kill me that way, but in this case, I just know the writers never really had any idea what was happening on the island doesn't matter much to me.

[andromeda331]

As much as I hate the last season and the finale. I loved how fun it was to watch especially season three and four. It was so fun speculating about what was going on and what was going to happen. My mom and I would talk about each episode all week long. I talked with co-workers and friends and Television without Pity. It really was so much. I miss having a show to do that. And there really were great cliffhangers. "We have to go back" being the best one. I also really loved when Ben was captured by the LOST crew after everything he did to them they beat him up. So often when the villain gets captured or "joins" the group they either decide not to hurt him/her or act like it never happened. I think Ben's one of the few villain characters that actually got what he deserved. He lost his power, was kicked off the island, and his daughter was murdered. He also got beat up by the people he harmed. The only thing I do wish that Locke had really been Locke when he came back from the dead after Ben murdered him instead of the smoke monster. Those scenes between Ben and Locke were awesome.

[DrSpaceman73]

Lost started off great the first 2 - 3 seasons. 

Then they just started throwing out every wacky clue and idea they could, kind of saw what they liked , stuck with those snd ignored everything else.  It was all over the place. Some of it was great.  

[Egg McMuffin]

Lost suffered from being on network TV and having to crank out 22 episodes per season. If they had done three or four 10-episode seasons, it would have been much stronger

[ABay]

One of the reasons season 4 is so good is that it is short. It came after the writers' strike. There was no time for filler, it just clipped along.

[proserpina65]

On 1/29/2023 at 7:03 PM, Mabinogia said:

I feel the same. While I wish I had liked the ending better, that the answer to the mystery was more satisfying, I don't regret watching every episode of Lost.

While overall I agree, there are definitely at least two episodes of Lost I very much regret watching: the pointless one about Jack's tattoo and the season 6 episode Across the Sea.

 

[DrSpaceman73]

12 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

Lost suffered from being on network TV and having to crank out 22 episodes per season. If they had done three or four 10-episode seasons, it would have been much stronger

I think there is a lot of truth to that.  You put this on HBO and make it 10 episodes a season it would be much better

[DoctorAtomic]

You're certainly not getting the tattoo episode. 

[DrSpaceman73]

41 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

You're certainly not getting the tattoo episode. 

But then how would we know jack is a tortured hero who feels the need to swoop in and save everyone?   

I mean besides based on every other episode of the show 

[Mabinogia]

I completely blocked the tattoo episode from my memory. So thanks for bringing that nightmare back. lol Lost would 100% have benefited from shorter seasons. It's the kind of story that works better with a clear beginning, middle and end, and not a ton of confusing filler. 

[Kel Varnsen]

10 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I think there is a lot of truth to that.  You put this on HBO and make it 10 episodes a season it would be much better

It's funny to think of what Lost would have been like as a modern show. Shorter season would have helped it I think. Although 10 episodes makes it hard to get to know all the characters with a cast that big, especially with the one character flashback per episode. But what a lot of short run shows do now where it is 10 episodes the like a 2+ year wait would have completely killed the show. Because I can't imagine waiting years to find out what was in the hatch. It would have totally killed any momentum and been really hard for a lot of viewers to remember all the twists and turns. 

Not to mention the full season drop binging model would also been terrible for the show. Because people talking and analysing and coming up with theories after each episode (either in their life or on the internet) is a big part of what made the show a hit. It's a lot harder to do that when all the episodes drop at once and people watch at different speeds.

[Gharlane]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:31 PM, Mabinogia said:

I completely blocked the tattoo episode from my memory. So thanks for bringing that nightmare back. lol Lost would 100% have benefited from shorter seasons. It's the kind of story that works better with a clear beginning, middle and end, and not a ton of confusing filler. 

Despite the show runner's claims, Lost was never planned out in advance, unlike Babylon 5, which was a textbook example of how to plan a show from start to finish ahead of time. 

[DoctorAtomic]

They copped to making it all up after the show ended. 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Gharlane said:

Babylon 5, which was a textbook example of how to plan a show from start to finish ahead of time. 

Which is also not without risk. I mean say you are the show runner of a 5 season show and you are getting ready for the final season. Can you imagine going into the writers room and saying you are going to stick with the storyline you came up with 4 years ago. Doing that is basically saying that no one has come up with a better idea in 4 years, and what is the likelihood of that happening?

[DearEvette]

18 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Which is also not without risk. I mean say you are the show runner of a 5 season show and you are getting ready for the final season. Can you imagine going into the writers room and saying you are going to stick with the storyline you came up with 4 years ago. Doing that is basically saying that no one has come up with a better idea in 4 years, and what is the likelihood of that happening?

But if you are walking into your writers room at the final season, then theoretically your prior four seasons have been following the five year narrative plan and the writers are not surprised by what has to happen in the last season because they've all been writing toward it all along.

The biggest risk, imo, in following a pre-planned narrative are the unpredictable things -- some real world event that would impact your planned story -- like the death of an actor whose character arc is integral to your story or some massive government or military or social upheaval that is a predicate to your story and no longer exists.

[bluegirl147]

58 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

The biggest risk, imo, in following a pre-planned narrative are the unpredictable things -- some real world event that would impact your planned story -- like the death of an actor whose character arc is integral to your story or some massive government or military or social upheaval that is a predicate to your story and no longer exists.

Happened on the West Wing.  The actor John Spencer was playing Leo who was running for Vice President and Spencer died.  His character on the show died but I can't remember what the plotline would have been if Spencer hadn't died.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

But if you are walking into your writers room at the final season, then theoretically your prior four seasons have been following the five year narrative plan and the writers are not surprised by what has to happen in the last season because they've all been writing toward it all along.

The biggest risk, imo, in following a pre-planned narrative are the unpredictable things -- some real world event that would impact your planned story -- like the death of an actor whose character arc is integral to your story or some massive government or military or social upheaval that is a predicate to your story and no longer exists.

Yea that does make sense, it just bugs me that planning out your entire show from the beginning and then executing that plan is somehow seen as better as making things up as you go. Because even not thinking of those big things you mentioned that require changes there are also much smaller things. Like secondary actors working really well and becoming really popular, or actors who are supposed to become a couple down the road having no chemistry with each other. I mean sure making things up as you go can mean you end up with the Lost finale, but sticking with your endgame plan all the way through means you might end up with the How I Met Your Mother finale. And I liked the Lost finale way more than HIMYM.

[Ohiopirate02]

21 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Yea that does make sense, it just bugs me that planning out your entire show from the beginning and then executing that plan is somehow seen as better as making things up as you go. Because even not thinking of those big things you mentioned that require changes there are also much smaller things. Like secondary actors working really well and becoming really popular, or actors who are supposed to become a couple down the road having no chemistry with each other. I mean sure making things up as you go can mean you end up with the Lost finale, but sticking with your endgame plan all the way through means you might end up with the How I Met Your Mother finale. And I liked the Lost finale way more than HIMYM.

My biggest problem with the HIMYM ending wasn't the ending but the lead up to it.  The show wasted 20+ episodes building to a wedding that is undone in the finale.  The Robin-Barney wedding should have been the mid-season finale and not the penultimate episode.  Have Ted and Tracy meet at the train station in that episode, and spend the rest of the final season telling their love story instead of cramming it into one episode.  Tracy will still die in the finale as Ted finishes telling the kids the story and they can still tell Ted to go get Aunt Robin.  We could also see more into why Robin and Barney were unable to make it work.  Also spend some time unpacking Robin's evolution from child-free to being comfortable dating a man with children.  They could have kept the ending without shortchanging the Ted/Tracy and Robin/Barney stories.  

[ABay]

You can plan for 5 series and be cancelled before the 4th, like Dark Matter. Fucking SyFy.

[DearEvette]

33 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Because even not thinking of those big things you mentioned that require changes there are also much smaller things. Like secondary actors working really well and becoming really popular, or actors who are supposed to become a couple down the road having no chemistry with each other. I mean sure making things up as you go can mean you end up with the Lost finale, but sticking with your endgame plan all the way through means you might end up with the How I Met Your Mother finale. And I liked the Lost finale way more than HIMYM.

Agreed. 

I like the idea of a good plan, because it is cool to see a seed planted early on and get long term pay off in the end: (Breaking Bad spoiler)

Spoiler

Like the ricin poison in Breaking Bad

I think it can work if the showrunner(s) plan in broad plot strokes knowing generally how the story needs to end, and maintaining some good plot continuity/consistency along the way.  But allowing for room to breathe to take advantage of good character chemistry or being able to pivot when some character chemistry isn't working.  Recalibrate maybe, give one plot element to a character that had been intended for another as long as it doesn't wreck the overall plot structure.

It can be great to watch a well planned story execute over several years when done right, but it is frustrating when it is obvious they're suffering from tunnel vision and rather than being well executed, the story suffers instead.

[Zella]

49 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

 

  Hide contents

 

I think it can work if the showrunner(s) plan in broad plot strokes knowing generally how the story needs to end, and maintaining some good plot continuity/consistency along the way.  But allowing for room to breathe to take advantage of good character chemistry or being able to pivot when some character chemistry isn't working.  Recalibrate maybe, give one plot element to a character that had been intended for another as long as it doesn't wreck the overall plot structure.

IMO this is what works the best. Shows that have an idea of what they're working toward, so there's an actual progression in the story, character development, and foreshadowing, but they also have the flexibility to adapt to setbacks (an actor in a pivotal role leaving) or happy accidents (an unexpectedly good one- off character).

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

My biggest problem with the HIMYM ending wasn't the ending but the lead up to it.  The show wasted 20+ episodes building to a wedding that is undone in the finale.  The Robin-Barney wedding should have been the mid-season finale and not the penultimate episode.  Have Ted and Tracy meet at the train station in that episode, and spend the rest of the final season telling their love story instead of cramming it into one episode.  Tracy will still die in the finale as Ted finishes telling the kids the story and they can still tell Ted to go get Aunt Robin.  We could also see more into why Robin and Barney were unable to make it work.  Also spend some time unpacking Robin's evolution from child-free to being comfortable dating a man with children.  They could have kept the ending without shortchanging the Ted/Tracy and Robin/Barney stories.  

I feel like the problems with that were already done even without the whole timing of the last season. They didn't expect to spend 9 years doing on again off again with Robin and Ted, and so didn't really have a reason for Robin to want to date a guy with kids besides Ted's dreams coming true, or have a reason for why they would finally work besides Robin finally being who she needed to be. And since they'd already filmed the kids cheering for shortchanging Ted/Tracy, I think they just didn't get how it would come across.

[DoctorAtomic]

JMS built 'trap doors' into his plan for Babylon 5 that addressed some contingencies. He also literally wrote 90%+ of the episodes, so there wasn't much of a writers room. 

For the Sopranos, Chase said iirc that they storyboarded season to season. That would seem to have a little more flexibility. This isn't quite the kind of show that needed heavy serialization because it was more a character study. I think the Wire did something similar.

 

[DrSpaceman73]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

My biggest problem with the HIMYM ending wasn't the ending but the lead up to it.  The show wasted 20+ episodes building to a wedding that is undone in the finale.  The Robin-Barney wedding should have been the mid-season finale and not the penultimate episode.  Have Ted and Tracy meet at the train station in that episode, and spend the rest of the final season telling their love story instead of cramming it into one episode.  Tracy will still die in the finale as Ted finishes telling the kids the story and they can still tell Ted to go get Aunt Robin.  We could also see more into why Robin and Barney were unable to make it work.  Also spend some time unpacking Robin's evolution from child-free to being comfortable dating a man with children.  They could have kept the ending without shortchanging the Ted/Tracy and Robin/Barney stories.  

I agree the whole last season was a mess in every way. 

The desire to hold the meeting of Ted and Tracey to the very end caused them to waste a whole lot of story. 

It would have worked better had they met at the end of the prior season then you get one whole season of Tracey and their relationship in some fashion.  Or a half season too is good. Just not 10 minutes or so shoehorned into a finale. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by DrSpaceman73

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Yea that does make sense, it just bugs me that planning out your entire show from the beginning and then executing that plan is somehow seen as better as making things up as you go.

For me it depends on the type of show. Something like Lost needed, if not to have the whole thing worked out, at least to have the ending figured out so that everything that comes before it makes sense since that show was basically a big puzzle. If all the pieces weren't there, the puzzle doesn't quite work. 

But I think a show that has everything plotted out also risks stagnating under it's own restrictions. There's a fine line a show that has an ongoing story needs to ride. Know where you are going, but don't be afraid to take a detour should a good one present itself. 

Even though I didn't really watch HIMYM, I saw some eps and they were fine but I never felt compelled to seek it out, I find the ending infuriating. It just felt like it turned the whole show into a big old "Haha, gotcha!" trick they played on the audience. That show was rare in sitcom land in that it had an ending that it was trying to reach, who the Mother was.

Most sitcoms can just wing it because they are basically just funny soap operas, in that it's a continuing look at a group of people's life more than a novelization with a beginning, middle and end. 

All that said, I write as a hobby and I never have an idea where my story is going to go because I find it boring. Difference is, I'm not writing for anyone else, only myself, so if I know everything that's going to happen there's really no reason to write it. I think I write as if I'm watching tv. That's...hmmm I never thought of it like that. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Breaking Bad went season to season as well, but the showrunner said he always knew how he was going to end it. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Breaking Bad went season to season as well, but the showrunner said he always knew how he was going to end it. 

Same for the show runner of Prison Break.

[kathyk24]

I think writers should have an idea about long term plots but they need to flexible. Once the writers of How I Met Your Mother realized that Barney and Robin were a better couple than Ted and Robin and Tracy was lovely they should have changed the finale. 

[supposebly]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

For me it depends on the type of show. Something like Lost needed, if not to have the whole thing worked out, at least to have the ending figured out so that everything that comes before it makes sense since that show was basically a big puzzle.

If your show is basically based on a mystery that is spelled out at the beginning. Charlie: Guys, ....where are we?

You need to have some sort of idea what the answer is. Or at least come up with one after your show gets picked up.

Everything else is bullshit. I bailed on this show when I realized after about a season and a half that I would never get an interesting answer as to where that poor polar bear came from that they shot at the beginning.

And from what I heard, those so-called answers that came trickling sometimes were either incredibly lame and/or made no sense.

Been, there, done that, watched X-files and Alias. Didn't need to do something like that again. At least with Alias, I didn't actually expect it to make sense and just went along for the ride.

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, supposebly said:

You need to have some sort of idea what the answer is. Or at least come up with one after your show gets picked up.

The thing is though pretty much with any fantasy type show if you drill down enough the answers just don't make sense. I mean in Lost the answer to most of the questions is "magic island" and sure that's not a great explanation. But at the same time is that much better we can time travel because of the flux capacitor, or scientists in Wakanda can do anything because of vibrainum? I have only seen the first 4 Harry Potter movies but do they ever really explain where magic comes from, or is Great Britain also just a magic island.

[izabella]

My Lost UO:  I hated Juliet with a passion.  The perpetual condescending smirk on her face was only replaced by the silent, blank stare.  Other Lost fans seemed to like her, but I loathed that character and now I can't watch Elizabeth Mitchell in anything else because of it.

[SVNBob]

11 hours ago, ABay said:

You can plan for 5 series and be cancelled before the 4th

Which is basically what happened to the aforementioned Babylon 5.  JMS had to cram the planned storyline of Seasons 4 and 5 into one season because of that.

Then when it got un-cancelled (well, picked up by a "new" network) near the end* of Season 4, he had to create a whole new season, since he'd already used the entire original story.  That's why the fifth season feels different from the first 3.  It wasn't part of the original plans.

*They'd filmed the series finale before the pick-up, but didn't air it until the end of the new final season.  They shot a new season 4 finale as the first thing they did for the new season 5.

 

[Irlandesa]

13 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

His character on the show died but I can't remember what the plotline would have been if Spencer hadn't died.

He would have been VP since Santos won. He just would have featured in the election and transition episodes.

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Breaking Bad went season to season as well, but the showrunner said he always knew how he was going to end it. 

But he has also said that the second season is the only one he planned from start to finish because of the opening teasers.  So many of the other seasons were more seat-of-their pants and influenced by external situations like the writer's strike and actor availability. 

I believe he knew the logline (Mr. Chips to Scarface) and and maybe where we'd last see some of the characters but there were others who were supposed to have died much earlier in the series but didn't because of the aforementioned strike. 

6 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

I think writers should have an idea about long term plots but they need to flexible. Once the writers of How I Met Your Mother realized that Barney and Robin were a better couple than Ted and Robin and Tracy was lovely they should have changed the finale. 

I agree.  I don't care if a show has everything planned out or not but I do think a show needs to know its mythology and evaluate whether or not the show is moving away from that mythology. 

I don't think Lost's problem is necessarily not knowing its finale.  (I didn't watch Lost much so I guess I'm not the best judge.)  I don't think the problem is the season length.  In fact, some of the best episodes on TV shows happen because they're trying to fill a network's 22 episode order.  I think Lost is a show that would have benefited from everyone agreeing early on that it'd be a 5 year show once it got insanely popular.  The writers could then plan on how much time to spend on revealing the mythology and how much time to spend on character building.

I think not having an end date also hurt HIMYM after it got past those initial five years or so.  During those years, they took a lot of care to tell multiple stories about why Ted and Robin had no future and wanted different things.  That led to them creating another Robin couple people cared about.  And miraculously, they also hit the ball out of the park in the casting of this nearly perfect "mother" figure.  It wasn't the second half of the last season where they needed to reevaluate.  It was already too late by then.  They needed to do that in seasons 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. They should have asked themselves what was more important to them: hitting their original ending or letting the narrative take them away from their original ending.  If the former, then they have to make sure each season serves that ending instead of takes away from it.  If it's the latter, then they needed to scrap the original ending.