S06.E13: The Same Boat

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

On The Walking Dead, Ladies Get In Free
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

[Blinkoshuman]

I almost had a panic attack myself when Carol was hyperventilating. That made me so uncomfortable and anxious, I was doing deep yoga breaths.

 

When Molls saw that Carol had a rosary, Carol looked like she was trying to eat it.  I thought maybe she was trying to play like she was mentally challenged in some way so they'd let their guard down around her.  What was she doing?

[nodorothyparker]

Rick shooting the guy in the head in front of Carol and Maggie after they were clearly traumatized like it was nothing at all just cements how much he's really not thinking this whole thing through.

 

Hopefully the followup episode will not be yet another one of those where characters fail to relay important pieces of information, like say, they all claim to be Negan and you killed this guy without bothering to see if you could get any more information out of him.  Sure, the guy seemed hardly inclined to cooperate, but it was at least worth a try.  You still don't know what Negan looks like or if he's got more people or where they might be.  You have only one incident on the road and the word of the Hilltoppers, who you met all of 5 minutes ago, to go on.  And that's before you throw in that multiple members of your team are really having a hard time with coldblooded murder and may hesitate or freeze and get themselves or other team members killed as this only gets bloodier.  

[kj4ever]

I would almost like to rewind time to see The Saviors point of view of all of this.  I know, it gives bad Governor flashbacks but man, think about it.

 

First they find their people blown to bits in the road.

 

They find everyone in one of their bunkers all dead in their beds.

 

They find their people either burned alive, eaten by walkers, or shot point blank in another one of their safe houses.

 

Even if they are bad people, which the show keeps telling us, they have got to be like OMG WTF is going on and who are these people? 

[RustbeltWriter]

I truly hope there is some kind of emotional reckoning for Rick's group as we close out the season. They've become cold blooded killers and that's been somewhat out of necessity but there were other solutions to their problems. Carol leaving Molls to be eaten alive, burning those people alive and Rick just gunning Primo down are all signs that the group is very close to losing their humanity. I have no doubt Negan and his smug group of saviors are bad people but how far down this path of per-emptive striking can a person go before they change so much and so completely that they aren't sympathetic characters any longer?

[Caelicola]

Hopefully the followup episode will not be yet another one of those where characters fail to relay important pieces of information, like say, they all claim to be Negan and you killed this guy without bothering to see if you could get any more information out of him.  Sure, the guy seemed hardly inclined to cooperate, but it was at least worth a try.  You still don't know what Negan looks like or if he's got more people or where they might be.  You have only one incident on the road and the word of the Hilltoppers, who you met all of 5 minutes ago, to go on.  And that's before you throw in that multiple members of your team are really having a hard time with coldblooded murder and may hesitate or freeze and get themselves or other team members killed as this only gets bloodier.  

Right, but the thing is, if someone told me that all of these people claim to be Negan, my first assumption would actually be that Negan doesn't really exist, he's a symbol, a boogeyman. Or, more existentially, a state of being. So, even if Carol and Rick convene about the fact that Negan is everyone and everyone is Negan, that doesn't really tell them that an actual Negan exists and is still out there somewhere. We know, because most of us saw the casting news or read the comics, but a bunch of cuckoo killers following a phantomatic name and claiming in turn to answer to that name? I'd assume they're building up a mythical creature who can be in multiple places at once, shapeshift, and never really be caught.

 

Edited because of really unclear wording.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Caelicola

[TexasChic]

I almost had a panic attack myself when Carol was hyperventilating. That made me so uncomfortable and anxious, I was doing deep yoga breaths.

When Molls saw that Carol had a rosary, Carol looked like she was trying to eat it. I thought maybe she was trying to play like she was mentally challenged in some way so they'd let their guard down around her. What was she doing?

I don't claim to have a lot of knowledge in this area, but I've seen Catholics put the rosary to their mouths like that before, so I assume it has some sort of significance.

[meep.meep]

If a group of people told me, "We are all Negan" my reaction would be to ask them if it was an abbreviation.  Or "big family!"

 

It just has that "I'm Spartacus!" feel to it.

 

The Negan's seemed to have order and discipline which is something that our hair triggered, plans?-we-don't-have-to-show-you-no-stinking-plans! heroes seem to be sorely lacking.  Contingencies, back ups, consequences etc.

[NorthstarATL]

I would almost like to rewind time to see The Saviors point of view of all of this.  I know, it gives bad Governor flashbacks but man, think about it.

 

First they find their people blown to bits in the road.

 

They find everyone in one of their bunkers all dead in their beds.

 

They find their people either burned alive, eaten by walkers, or shot point blank in another one of their safe houses.

 

Even if they are bad people, which the show keeps telling us, they have got to be like OMG WTF is going on and who are these people? 

These are people who had/have no problem threatening and extorting people less well-armed than they, and would hardly be surprised as to any of the above if they had any capacity for self-reflection. That said, I would venture a guess as to how many just go along with the group think as a means of survival and if the "We are/I am Negan" doesn't absolve them from individually taking responsibility for their actions. (Have they met the Wolves yet?)

[nodorothyparker]

Right, but the thing is, if someone told me that all of these people claim to be Negan, my first assumption would actually be that Negan doesn't really exist, he's a symbol, a boogeyman. Or, more existentially, a state of being. So, even if Carol and Rick convene about the fact that Negan is everyone and everyone is Negan, that doesn't really tell them that an actual Negan exists and is still out there somewhere. We know, because most of us saw the casting news or read the comics, but a bunch of cuckoo killers following a phantomatic name and claiming in turn to answer to that name? I'd assume they're building up a mythical creature who can be in multiple places at once, shapeshift, and never really be caught.

 

That's entirely possible.  They don't know if the guy actually exists or these people are just nuts in a different way than the Wolves appeared to be.  But putting a bullet in motorcycle boy's head in a noncrisis situation before they try to talk to him means they have no hope of finding out until the Saviors possibly roll up to their gates.  Which is the position they're wanting to avoid.

 

That's why Rick feels so sloppy here.  Other than the road incident with some guys claiming to be associated with Negan, for all they know they just embroiled themselves in some kind of feud between two warring groups, one of whom is apparently willing to stab and then decapitate their own leader in front of strangers.  He's taking everything at the most surface kind of face value.

[AndySmith]

Ugh, let's hope not.

 

Maybe the Saviors will be like the anti-Others? The Others started out as a bunch of mysterious dangerous bad-asses, then become a bunch of losers. The Saviors could be the opposite, have us think they're easy opponents at first and underestimate them before they cause a ton of damage on Rick and Co.

[SimoneS]

I forgot to mention Gabriel looked all badass and hot in his collar pointing his gun when he came in. Talk about a character going the distance. 

Edited March 14, 2016 by SimoneS

[AllisonH]

I really enjoyed the parallels between Paula and Carol.  And I particularly liked that Carol gave Paula a chance to run.

 

There have been at least four other times CDB has killed a living person who arguably didn’t “deserve” it.  Karen and David (obviously), Officer Bob from Grady, and Carter from 6.01 are the ones that come to mind.  Carter was killed because he put the group in danger, which I get.  Officer Bob was killed trying to escape his captors.

 

To me, Paula falls in that category.  She wasn’t that much different from anyone else in CDB.  And she didn’t actually do anything to harm either Carol or Maggie.  (At least, not until the very end after Molly and Donnie were killed.)  I don’t think Paula deserved her fate any more or less than Carol, Maggie, or anyone else in CDB.

 

It seems like the theme of 6B is what ‘Chelle told Maggie: “you're not the good guys.”  I think she’s right.  But more importantly, it doesn’t seem to matter who considers themselves to be “good” or “right” anymore.  I believe that’s what Carol is starting to realize.

[SimoneS]

That's entirely possible.  They don't know if the guy actually exists or these people are just nuts in a different way than the Wolves appeared to be.  But putting a bullet in motorcycle boy's head in a noncrisis situation before they try to talk to him means they have no hope of finding out until the Saviors possibly roll up to their gates.  Which is the position they're wanting to avoid.

 

That's why Rick feels so sloppy here.  Other than the road incident with some guys claiming to be associated with Negan, for all they know they just embroiled themselves in some kind of feud between two warring groups, one of whom is apparently willing to stab and then decapitate their own leader in front of strangers.  He's taking everything at the most surface kind of face value.

 

I don't see how Rick's people could erroneously think that they are involving themselves between two feuding groups when Daryl, Abraham, and Sacha encountered Negan's men on the road. They were going to steal everything from them, they claimed everything that they owned  belonged to Negan, and they were going to kill one of them to show that they were serious and boasted that is how they always do things. Only Daryl killing Negan's man and taking out the others with the RPG saved their lives. What Daryl, Abraham, and Sacha experienced is consistent with what the Hilltop people told them about Negan. In fact, Rick would be foolish to come to any other conclusion than Negan is dangerous and should be stopped before he comes for them.

Edited March 14, 2016 by SimoneS

[nodorothyparker]

I don't think it's likely either, but the point is they really don't know.  They've put themselves in a position where they have very little moral high ground and Negan's group, if it exists beyond what they've taken out, can feel reasonably justified in retaliating from here on out.  And they've done it with extremely little to go on beyond "yeah, they're bad guys."

[phoenix780]

I don't see how Rick's people could erroneously think that they are involving themselves between two feuding groups when Daryl, Abraham, and Sacha encountered Negan's men on the road. They were going to steal everything from them, they claimed everything that they owned  belonged to Negan, and they were going to kill one of them to show that they were serious and boasted that is how they always do things. Only Daryl killing Negan's man and taking out the others with the RPG saved their lives. What Daryl, Abraham, and Sacha experienced is consistent with what the Hilltop people told them about Negan. In fact, Rick would be foolish to come to any other conclusion than Negan is dangerous and should be stopped before he comes for them.

 

Didn't the group of Neganites killed last night reference the road people as "over the top," meaning they weren't supportive of their tactics?

 

I dunno, I guess I don't see Negan as all that bad if all he's doing is taking stuff using threatened and/or very limited actual violence.  Which is a terrible thing to say, I suppose, but I'm not getting that our guys are the good guys from what I'm watching, and given what we've seen from other tribes some kind of tribute system feels...fair.  That's probably the point, and I'm enjoying it more than seeing them sit around and stew. 

 

The Lost references- it's funny, the other day I was talking to someone about how Glenn/Maggie remind me of Jin/Sun (from what I remember of Lost- I skipped parts and have forgotten others).  So I expect them to die together tragically at some point, probably not too soon though- you can't introduce an OB-GYN with an ultrasound machine and not use it, can you?

[AndySmith]

you can't introduce an OB-GYN with an ultrasound machine and not use it, can you?

 

Much like Chekov's rocket launcher, no, not really...

[NorthstarATL]

I don't think it's likely either, but the point is they really don't know.  They've put themselves in a position where they have very little moral high ground and Negan's group, if it exists beyond what they've taken out, can feel reasonably justified in retaliating from here on out.  And they've done it with extremely little to go on beyond "yeah, they're bad guys."

The moral equivalency thing doesn't really hold up in the world that the Walking Dead sets up, though. There is no peaceful co-existence because one group always wants (claims) what the others have. There is no law or court or arbitration. We have seen repeatedly that if a threat is left standing that threat will return (and it will even return if you kill it), and the only way to have any measure of peace is to align yourselves with those who are likeminded in that but also willing to defend that peace even if it means using lethal methods.

[AngelaHunter]

Didn't Daryl torture that rapist for information several seasons ago?

 

I don't remember a rapist, but he tortured Randall. Was Randall a rapist?

[SimoneS]

The moral equivalency thing doesn't really hold up in the world that the Walking Dead sets up, though. There is no peaceful co-existence because one group always wants (claims) what the others have. There is no law or court or arbitration. We have seen repeatedly that if a threat is left standing that threat will return (and it will even return if you kill it), and the only way to have any measure of peace is to align yourselves with those who are likeminded in that but also willing to defend that peace even if it means using lethal methods.

 

This. I don't even understand how you can have peace with someone who kills one of your people so that they can take the little that you have and need to survive.  

Edited March 14, 2016 by SimoneS

[ShadowSixx]

Whenever someone wants to join the Alexandria Safe Zone, the mandatory question they ask is, "How many people you killed?" What number are they going off of to decide whether or not you can join the group or not? Isn't Aaron the recruiter or did Aaron say that he would no longer recruit people?

 

I mean if a person killed 0 like Glenn before Negan's group would they consider that person weak and can't trust them when out on runs and missions? If that person's kill count matches Rick's or Carol's would they be deemed untrustworthy? Don't Rick & Carol have higher kills than anyone in the group? I think Rick's is higher than Carol's. Glenn tries to avoid killing, and don't think Sasha, Rosita, or Maggie have killed that many humans that I can remember.

 

I bring it up because Carol and the number 18 and possibly Mole girl wanting to escape and join them.

Edited March 14, 2016 by ShadowSixx

[SimoneS]

Whenever someone wants to join the Alexandria Safe Zone, the mandatory question they ask is, "How many people you killed?" What number are they going off of to decide whether or not you can join the group or not? Isn't Aaron the recruiter or did Aaron say that he would no longer recruit people?

 

I mean if a person killed 0 like Glenn before Negan's group would they consider that person weak and can't trust them when out on runs and missions? If that person's kill count matches Rick's or Carol's would they be deemed untrustworthy? Don't Rick & Carol have higher kills than anyone in the group? I think Rick's is higher than Carol's. Glenn tries to avoid killing, and don't think Sasha, Rosita, or Maggie have killed that many humans that I can remember.

 

I bring it up because Carol and the number 18 and possibly Mole girl wanting to escape and join them.

 

They are not going off any number. Rather they are trying to see if the person is honest about who they are and why they did the things that they did. 

[Caelicola]

I don't think it's likely either, but the point is they really don't know.  They've put themselves in a position where they have very little moral high ground and Negan's group, if it exists beyond what they've taken out, can feel reasonably justified in retaliating from here on out.  And they've done it with extremely little to go on beyond "yeah, they're bad guys."

That's very very true, and so far CDB vs. Saviors is a resounding 3-0 by way of RPG, sneak-attack in the night and Maggie and Carol. That's A LOT of people taken out in quite a quick succession, and only one of those attacks was provoked. They don't have any moral high ground anymore, you're absolutely right, and I think they recognize it themselves; the whole planning and execution of plan "kill 'em in their sleep" had a general sense of unease and horror that was only amplified by Carol's unease and horror in this episode. The thing is, they probably are terrible people, and they probably would have attacked them; but they can't be sure.

 

Whenever someone wants to join the Alexandria Safe Zone, the mandatory question they ask is, "How many people you killed?" What number are they going off of to decide whether or not you can join the group or not? Isn't Aaron the recruiter or did Aaron say that he would no longer recruit people?

 

I mean if a person killed 0 like Glenn before Negan's group would they consider that person weak and can't trust them when out on runs and missions? If that person's kill count matches Rick's or Carol's would they be deemed untrustworthy? Don't Rick & Carol have higher kills than anyone in the group? I think Rick's is higher than Carol's. Glenn tries to avoid killing, and don't think Sasha, Rosita, or Maggie have killed that many humans that I can remember.

 

Those are still the questions Rick asked people back at the prison, and I don't think there's a minimum or maximum number, I think it's mostly to see how someone reacts. If someone answers 0, it's probably really suspicious because they were either very lucky or they're lying, but if they boast about a really high number you don't want them around either. I really think the true test is in how they react to the question, because obviously they can lie and make up whatever number they want.

[lulee]

I truly hope there is some kind of emotional reckoning for Rick's group as we close out the season. They've become cold blooded killers and that's been somewhat out of necessity but there were other solutions to their problems. Carol leaving Molls to be eaten alive,

Carol didn't leave Molls to be eaten alive -- Carol slipped out of her cell and then saw Molls finishing off walkers (cleaning up the hallway), but then Carol went to free Maggie. Carol then said they should just get out, and Maggie was the one who set the DonnieTrap for Molls and then Maggie beat her to death.

 

'Chelle was shot by Carol when she was about to attack Maggie, and the only remaining SaviorChick (Paula) was told to run by Carol, refused, then they fought and Paula got impaled.

[ghoulina]

I don't remember a rapist, but he tortured Randall. Was Randall a rapist?

 

Probably not. But Randall was trying to entice Daryl to join his group with some very disturbing talk about the girls they had over there. It was implied, IMO, that the GROUP were definitely raping women. That was why Daryl was so dead set that they not let that dude go, lest he possibly tip his group off to where CDB, and their women, were. But I have my doubts about Randall's actual participation. I think he was a young, scared dude that tried to appease whomever he had to in order to stay alive. 

 

I dunno, I guess I don't see Negan as all that bad if all he's doing is taking stuff using threatened and/or very limited actual violence.  Which is a terrible thing to say, I suppose, but I'm not getting that our guys are the good guys from what I'm watching, and given what we've seen from other tribes some kind of tribute system feels...fair.  That's probably the point, and I'm enjoying it more than seeing them sit around and stew.

 

I don't know how limited the violence was. Didn't they kill one of the Hilltoppers? And he wanted Gregory's head on a platter. We saw the pictures in that one room, of all the head shots. And that group in the woods that Daryl saw? I think those were probably Neganites as well. I think this was a very very brutal group.

[ShadowSixx]

I really can't blame them for having to kill people because they're going to save people in their group at all costs. Rick wanted to do a simple exchange of Carol/Maggie for Primo and Paula was stalling thinking it wasn't a fair trade and who knew if they were going to retaliate and kill Maggie/Carol for the deaths of the biker gang and at that location. 

 

They want to kill Negan and his crew because Hilltop can provide them with food but not if a majority of it is taken by Negan. 

 

We know it's a shame that all survivors can't come together to try and restore humanity and civilization but people will lean towards being protected and following the rules of a leader so they don't die. Now the motto of this ZA is "Kill or Be Killed".

[kj4ever]

Probably not. But Randall was trying to entice Daryl to join his group with some very disturbing talk about the girls they had over there. It was implied, IMO, that the GROUP were definitely raping women. That was why Daryl was so dead set that they not let that dude go, lest he possibly tip his group off to where CDB, and their women, were. But I have my doubts about Randall's actual participation. I think he was a young, scared dude that tried to appease whomever he had to in order to stay alive. 

 

 

 

 

I don't know how limited the violence was. Didn't they kill one of the Hilltoppers? And he wanted Gregory's head on a platter. We saw the pictures in that one room, of all the head shots. And that group in the woods that Daryl saw? I think those were probably Neganites as well. I think this was a very very brutal group.

And didn't Randall insinuate that they just went out in gangs and raped that man's teenage daughters and then went back to their wives and their own children like nothing happened?  That made it all the more terrifying.

 

Oh I have no doubt that these people are brutal, and that it has been proven to them.  The thing is if you look at it from Negan's group POV Rick's group is just as bad.  Of course we know they aren't but it's like they say who the terrorist is depends on which side you are on.

[nodorothyparker]

Yes, we know in the end that the fact that they're murdering people outright now and have attacked unprovoked will be vindicated because that's the world the show presents.  Everybody they meet is either completely crazy or completely evil or so incapable you have no idea how they've survived this long.  So of course Negan's gang will surely be the most evilest evil ever.  In the meantime, the scale slides a little further.

 

The funny thing about trying to argue this is that I actually do agree there aren't any good choices here.  They either do what they're doing or they sit back and wait and hope nobody shows up at the gates.  (Deanna and company lived there peacefully for nearly two years sans attacks from apocalyptic assholes or giant walker herds, but again that's how this world works where CBD might as well have a comically large ACME magnet for this sort of thing strapped to their RV.)  It's mostly interesting to me because one of the things I liked most about last season was that our crew spent much of it filthy and scary looking as hell and everyone they encountered was reacting to that.  We knew they were still more or less good people, but nobody else really knew that.  This season with the exception of Daryl they're a lot cleaner and better groomed, but they're giving up their moral high ground of how they knew that no matter what else they did they were still the good guys.  Assuming they survive this mostly intact, where do they go from here?

Edited March 14, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[ACW]

That's entirely possible.  They don't know if the guy actually exists or these people are just nuts in a different way than the Wolves appeared to be.  But putting a bullet in motorcycle boy's head in a noncrisis situation before they try to talk to him means they have no hope of finding out until the Saviors possibly roll up to their gates.  Which is the position they're wanting to avoid.

 

  Damn, Rick.  When (someone who claims to be) the bad guy is monologuing his Evil Plan to you, YOU LET HIM!  Didn't you ever watch any James Bond movie?

 

  Most people here seem to have liked the episode quite a bit, and so did I. For those who didn't:  What's your preference on the "surprise" vs. "suspense" continuum? 

 

   To quote Alfred Hitchcock:

There is a distinct difference between "suspense" and "surprise," and yet many pictures continually confuse the two. I'll explain what I mean.

We are now having a very innocent little chat. Let's suppose that there is a bomb underneath this table between us. Nothing happens, and then all of a sudden, "Boom!" There is an explosion. The public is surprised, but prior to this surprise, it has seen an absolutely ordinary scene, of no special consequence. Now, let us take a suspense situation. The bomb is underneath the table and the public knows it, probably because they have seen the anarchist place it there. The public is aware the bomb is going to explode at one o'clock and there is a clock in the decor. The public can see that it is a quarter to one. In these conditions, the same innocuous conversation becomes fascinating because the public is participating in the scene. The audience is longing to warn the characters on the screen: "You shouldn't be talking about such trivial matters. There is a bomb beneath you and it is about to explode!"

In the first case we have given the public fifteen seconds of surprise at the moment of the explosion. In the second we have provided them with fifteen minutes of suspense. The conclusion is that whenever possible the public must be informed. Except when the surprise is a twist, that is, when the unexpected ending is, in itself, the highlight of the story

 

 

P.S.: Carol is the bomb.  ;-)

Edited March 14, 2016 by ACW

[NorthstarATL]

 

Assuming they survive this mostly intact, where do they go from here?

Since this is based on a comic book, I am assuming it will continue like this. BUT, once you DO decide that you want to rebuild, you can. Our group has shown the capacity to plan ahead, to plant, to trade with other groups who are not intent upon killing them, and even welcoming those into the group, again, who are not intent upon killing them. They even embrace replenishing the population. I'd say that there is a lot to look forward to for our group, but that their moral code will of necessity be different than that of the real world.

[Boofish]

I would almost like to rewind time to see The Saviors point of view of all of this.  I know, it gives bad Governor flashbacks but man, think about it.

 

Their point of view

 - meeting people on the road demanding all their things and telling them point blank "we usually just pop one of you off the bat"

 - beating a teenage boy to death in front of his friends

 - demanding someone's head in exchange for a prisoner

 - when said hostage is released he looks beaten and bloody

In a lawless world, people like that need to be stopped by any means necessary.

[Nashville]

I agree, I don't think Carol questioned anything she did up until Paula would't run, Paula said "double digits" which Carol is already well into.

The moment Paula said that, the question which immediately popped into my mind was, "How far into double digits are we talking?" That could be anything including/over ten. As braggadocio it fell short to me - and, I suspect, Carol - because Carol could still be winning on THAT tally.

  

I agree about all of that... I'm just not so sure that a rosary was part of her particular brand.  <g>  Came in handy, though!

Considering Carol's affinity to the kitchen, I'd guessed something closer to Southern Baptist. :)

  

I almost had a panic attack myself when Carol was hyperventilating. That made me so uncomfortable and anxious, I was doing deep yoga breaths.

 

I figured Scarol was just trying to get them to remove her gag, so she would have an additional tool/weapon available - her teeth.

  

When Molls saw that Carol had a rosary, Carol looked like she was trying to eat it.  I thought maybe she was trying to play like she was mentally challenged in some way so they'd let their guard down around her.  What was she doing?

I assumed Carol was kissing it - or mimicking a kiss, anyway - to sell the religious mania angle, so they wouldn't take it away.

  

Probably not. But Randall was trying to entice Daryl to join his group with some very disturbing talk about the girls they had over there. It was implied, IMO, that the GROUP were definitely raping women. That was why Daryl was so dead set that they not let that dude go, lest he possibly tip his group off to where CDB, and their women, were. But I have my doubts about Randall's actual participation. I think he was a young, scared dude that tried to appease whomever he had to in order to stay alive. 

 

Willingly or not (although I'd suspect willingly), I'm certain Randall would've participated in any such shenanigans if for no other reason than not to brand himself as a potentially unreliable outsider to his group. Kinda like how every cop in a crooked precinct is paranoid about the one cop who isn't on the take.

  

I don't know how limited the violence was. Didn't they kill one of the Hilltoppers? And he wanted Gregory's head on a platter. We saw the pictures in that one room, of all the head shots. And that group in the woods that Daryl saw? I think those were probably Neganites as well. I think this was a very very brutal group.

They certainly were - but absent the contextual knowledge of CDB's relationship with Hilltop, the Neganoids have no reason to believe CDB is anything other than some random group who said, "Hey, look - people in a building. Let's go down, slaughter them all, and take their stuff." Even knowledge of Daryl/Abraham/Sasha's previous encounter with the Neganoids (THANKS, CAROL!!!) wouldn't belie that impression; as (I believe) Paula intimated to Carol, CDB could've simply walked away after greasing Negan's equivalent of the Shriner's Motorcycle Corps if they weren't looking for murder and mayhem - but they didn't.

People compartmentalize things in life, so (absent information to the contrary) I expect Paula saw no reason why her group's actions toward Hilltop would have any bearing on or relationship to CDB's actions toward the Neganoids - except in a vague karmic sense, and I didn't get the vibe she's real big on karma. :)

Aside: maybe it's just me - but every time somebody said "We are all Negan", did anybody else find their brain substituting "We are Marshall"? :>

[RustbeltWriter]

Carol didn't leave Molls to be eaten alive -- Carol slipped out of her cell and then saw Molls finishing off walkers (cleaning up the hallway), but then Carol went to free Maggie. Carol then said they should just get out, and Maggie was the one who set the DonnieTrap for Molls and then Maggie beat her to death.

 

'Chelle was shot by Carol when she was about to attack Maggie, and the only remaining SaviorChick (Paula) was told to run by Carol, refused, then they fought and Paula got impaled.

Oh, that's right. My bad.

[kj4ever]

Their point of view

 - meeting people on the road demanding all their things and telling them point blank "we usually just pop one of you off the bat"

 - beating a teenage boy to death in front of his friends

 - demanding someone's head in exchange for a prisoner

 - when said hostage is released he looks beaten and bloody

In a lawless world, people like that need to be stopped by any means necessary.

No doubt, but I still think it would be interesting to see them scrambling as these random people that they don't know are killing off their people.

[DearEvette]

Their point of view

 - meeting people on the road demanding all their things and telling them point blank "we usually just pop one of you off the bat"

 - beating a teenage boy to death in front of his friends

 - demanding someone's head in exchange for a prisoner

 - when said hostage is released he looks beaten and bloody

In a lawless world, people like that need to be stopped by any means necessary.

 

What is interesting in all this, though, is that excepting the group Darryl, Sasha and Abraham met on the road, none of what we have learned about the Saviors have come from direct interaction.  it is all third hand.  Even the women holding Carol/Maggie arent necessarily monstrous.  Just hard.  And they are reacting to an attack on their home.  And who knows if everybody they killed in their sleep is on board 100% with whatever it is that Negan decides and isn't hanging on for their own survival -- keeping their head down? So in realty very little of it is from the Saviors POV. 

 

I don't presume that Negan isn't some monster, but Rick and Co. have inserted themselves into a situation without knowing the entire story.  They got the Hilltoppers side and are inclined to believe and like them because of Jesus and because they seem peaceful.  But who's to say that Gregory isn't doing some shit that is provoking The Saviors that the Hilltop folks don't know about?  He seems like he'd do something like that.  Maybe he did send a 'light' shipment? 

 

Of course I root for our folks, but I can't help but feel that they are not being very smart.

Edited March 14, 2016 by DearEvette

[peach]

The moral equivalency thing doesn't really hold up in the world that the Walking Dead sets up, though. There is no peaceful co-existence because one group always wants (claims) what the others have. There is no law or court or arbitration. We have seen repeatedly that if a threat is left standing that threat will return (and it will even return if you kill it), and the only way to have any measure of peace is to align yourselves with those who are likeminded in that but also willing to defend that peace even if it means using lethal methods.

Right.  This is akin to frontier justice.  Extreme frontier justice.

And the moral high ground is six feet UNDER the ground.

Right, but the thing is, if someone told me that all of these people claim to be Negan, my first assumption would actually be that Negan doesn't really exist, he's a symbol, a boogeyman. Or, more existentially, a state of being. So, even if Carol and Rick convene about the fact that Negan is everyone and everyone is Negan, that doesn't really tell them that an actual Negan exists and is still out there somewhere. We know, because most of us saw the casting news or read the comics, but a bunch of cuckoo killers following a phantomatic name and claiming in turn to answer to that name? I'd assume they're building up a mythical creature who can be in multiple places at once, shapeshift, and never really be caught.

 

Great description.  I might even think they had a leader by that name that died, so now they all say it.  Like if Rick died, and the group carried on saying, I am Rick.  Like before a machete attack.

[Grace284]

I haven't seen acting that bad or characters that annoying since the longest hospital arc in television history. At least they didn't stick around for 32 episodes and three musical numbers.

 

You do have to appreciate that Carol's new reluctance to kill resulted in some of her most brutal murders. She does like to set fire to people. Maybe she should examine that, psychologically. 

[VLove]

For some reason I liked the chain-smoking woman. She reminded me of all the women I encounter at the lotto kiosk while I'm getting my morning coffee and a chance at a million in the mornings at Sheetz. I never for one second thought that Carol and Maggie were not going to make it out alive. They themselves have become weapons of mass destruction and encountering them is like playing hop scotch in a minefield.

 

I liked her, too, as much as you can like someone who is ready to kill you.  She reminded me of Bobby Munson/Sons of Anarchy. *shrugs*

[AngelaHunter]

Like if Rick died, and the group carried on saying, I am Rick.  Like before a machete attack.

 

Heh, yeah. The "I am Negan" reminds me of an old Star Trek ep, where anyone who is "Not of the body" must be eliminated. Negan's followers are ALL of the body. All cells of a single organism. Or maybe like Charles Manson, whose followers were all just extensions of him.

[jtallman]

I have read other recaps where the writer suggested Carol was actually freaking out during her captivity. I agree with Eve that she was playing timid to get the Saviors to let down their guard.

[Ocean Chick]

When Molls saw that Carol had a rosary, Carol looked like she was trying to eat it. I thought maybe she was trying to play like she was mentally challenged in some way so they'd let their guard down around her. What was she doing?

 

 

She was kissing it.  Kinda like when you meet the Pope, you kneel and kiss his ring if you're a Catholic.  It's a sign of devotion to Jesus Christ/God.

[Ohwell]

What is interesting in all this, though, is that excepting the group Darryl, Sasha and Abraham met on the road, none of what we have learned about the Saviors have come from direct interaction.  it is all third hand.  Even the women holding Carol/Maggie arent necessarily monstrous.  Just hard.  And they are reacting to an attack on their home.  And who knows if everybody they killed in their sleep is on board 100% with whatever it is that Negan decides and isn't hanging on for their own survival -- keeping their head down? So in realty very little of it is from the Saviors POV. 

 

I don't presume that Negan isn't some monster, but Rick and Co. have inserted themselves into a situation without knowing the entire story.  They got the Hilltoppers side and are inclined to believe and like them because of Jesus and because they seem peaceful.  But who's to say that Gregory isn't doing some shit that is provoking The Saviors that the Hilltop folks don't know about?  He seems like he'd do something like that.  Maybe he did send a 'light' shipment? 

 

Of course I root for our folks, but I can't help but feel that they are not being very smart.

Word to all of this.  

 

First of all, I would have given the side-eye to anyone who called himself Jesus who was not Hispanic.  I mean, why would anyone in their right mind have trusted or believed this guy in the first place?  Second, I'm not convinced that Hilltoppers were telling the complete truth either.  For example, CDB simply took their word for it that the Neganites killed the 16-year old.  They knew that Sasha, Abraham and Darryl were attacked by some bad guys but that's all they've got of any solid evidence that there was this dangerous group out there.  

 

I don't know that happens in the comics but if anything bad happens to CDB they will have had it coming because they should have just minded their own business, left the Hilltoppers and Neganites alone, and hightailed it back to Alexandria.  I would rather fortify my ground, keep watch, and let them come to me rather than going out into an unknown situation looking for people I don't even know. 

[Eyes High]

I have read other recaps where the writer suggested Carol was actually freaking out during her captivity. I agree with Eve that she was playing timid to get the Saviors to let down their guard.

 

I'd classify it as follows.

 

Hyperventilating? Fake.

Panic attack? Fake.

Suddenly finding religion? Fake. (Maggie's WTF look when Carol was doing her religious shtick was hilarious.)

Urging Paula et al. not to hurt Maggie or the baby? Nervousness was fake. This was a calculated move to get Paula and company to leave Maggie alone so that they wouldn't damage the hostage. (And it seems to have worked!)

Claiming that her faith got her through the death of her daughter? Lie.

Tears? Real. She was genuinely grieving her daughter, but a good actor uses their past experience to conjure up the appropriate emotion, and Carol is a great actor.

Fear? Partly feigned, and partly real, but she wasn't afraid for herself. She was afraid of herself (knowing she could easily put these people down and not wanting to have to do it).

Warning Paula that she'll die? Real.

"I hope not"? Real. She hopes she won't have to put down Paula.

Everything after the escape? Real.

 

I guess one could hypothesize that Carol is genuinely agitated and as upset as she appeared while imprisoned, but not because she's afraid, but rather because she realizes that she's probably going to have to kill her captors, and she's resisting that reality. I think that may explain why she didn't put up more of a fight when Maggie insisted they kill them; she knew on some level that this was always going to happen and didn't want to admit it.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[peach]

I don't know that happens in the comics but if anything bad happens to CDB they will have had it coming because they should have just minded their own business, left the Hilltoppers and Neganites alone, and hightailed it back to Alexandria.  I would rather fortify my ground, keep watch, and let them come to me rather than going out into an unknown situation looking for people I don't even know. 

 

Doing nothing wasn't an option anymore, though.  Hilltop knows all about them, and their location, right down to where their armory is and what's in it.  All information they could easily and predictably turn over to Negan. Allying with Hilltop is their best option.  And even then, there's still a risk that Hilltop rats them out.

[Iguessnot]

If Carol had had her previous Terminator mindset, the episode would have been a lot shorter.

 

It's funny that for all of Carol's shaking and hesitation towards the end of the episode, she did some truly cold shit:

 

1. She didn't bother to put Paula out of her misery when she was being eaten alive about a foot away from her.

2. She took away Paula's walkie talkie and did a credible imitation of Paula to lure the other Saviours, all over Paula's screams of agony.

3. She confided in Maggie about her guilt over creating this situation by not killing Donnie...right before burning five people alive. (I'm also pretty confident that the plan to burn them alive was Carol's.)

 

I mean, it was clearly causing her a great deal of pain to do those things, but...

 

With all that said, as Carol realized, this whole situation was created by her decision to shoot Donnie in the arm instead of the head. Poor Carol. She hung back with Maggie to avoid killing. She shot Donnie in the arm to avoid killing. As a result of those two decisions, nine people are dead.

I don't know why they had her say that. Carol and Maggie were obviously surrounded. Had Carol killed Donnie, the probability of the Negan's shooting Carol & Maggie right there goes way up. Even if they hadn't shot them dead then, things could have gone pretty much the same way, with them being hostages for a trade with Primo.

 

Even if Carol and Maggie weren't on the perimeter, Alicia and her crew would still be out there watching Rick and calling for reinforcements. 

 

I don't know if I agree with this. Carol's main motivation was protecting Maggie, and I don't think she shot Donnie in the arm on purpose. I know, we're used to seeing the whole team make improbable headshots, but Donnie surprised them, it was dark and he was moving much faster than a walker. 

If you watch the scene again, you'll see Carol initially aim for the head, pause just a second then adjust her aim downward and shoot.

[lulee]

If Carol had had her previous Terminator mindset, the episode would have been a lot shorter.

 

It's funny that for all of Carol's shaking and hesitation towards the end of the episode, she did some truly cold shit:

 

1. She didn't bother to put Paula out of her misery when she was being eaten alive about a foot away from her.

2. She took away Paula's walkie talkie and did a credible imitation of Paula to lure the other Saviours, all over Paula's screams of agony.

3. She confided in Maggie about her guilt over creating this situation by not killing Donnie...right before burning five people alive. (I'm also pretty confident that the plan to burn them alive was Carol's.)

 

I mean, it was clearly causing her a great deal of pain to do those things, but...

 

With all that said, as Carol realized, this whole situation was created by her decision to shoot Donnie in the arm instead of the head. Poor Carol. She hung back with Maggie to avoid killing. She shot Donnie in the arm to avoid killing. As a result of those two decisions, nine people are dead.

I think your numbers are a little off: only 2 guys were shown in the "Kill Room" when it lit up. So the body count was:

Donnie (Carol - indirectly - he slowly died from Carol's shot to his arm)

Molls (Maggie - set a trap with WalkerDonnie and then beat Molls to death)

'Chelle (Carol - shot her in head)

Paula (Carol - impaled her during a struggle and after giving her a chance, a couple chances to flee, then eaten by a walker)

 

^all dead before the fire.

Then

2 backup-team guys (Carol/Maggie)

 

So a total body count of 6.

Then the last kill of the episode was all Rick.

Edited March 14, 2016 by lulee

[halkatla]

The best episodes are the ones where Carol turns into a superhero. She is the strongest and she is the smartest, she doesn´t need the others, they should all just bow down and accept her as their leader. But then we wouldn´t have a show about this bumbling bunch, so I guess it wouldn´t work.

 

It was also very nice to see her get the hugs from Daryl in the end, I think they have the sweetest connection of all.

Edited March 14, 2016 by halkatla

[Ohwell]

Doing nothing wasn't an option anymore, though.  Hilltop knows all about them, and their location, right down to where their armory is and what's in it.  All information they could easily and predictably turn over to Negan. Allying with Hilltop is their best option.  And even then, there's still a risk that Hilltop rats them out.

Yes, which is why they'd have to come to me, rather than me walking into a trap and allying with people I don't really know or trust, like that Jesus dude.

[Nashville]

Yes, which is why they'd have to come to me, rather than me walking into a trap and allying with people I don't really know or trust, like that Jesus dude.

But they do have reason to trust Jesus:

• Jesus has been to the armory and seen - and had access to - everything in it.
• That includes the pistols with suppressors.
• Which means if Jesus had so chosen, he could've capped Rick - and Michonne - and everybody else in the ASZ - in their sleep, nobody would've been the wiser, and the Hilltoppers could just roll in and take all the ASZ's shit.
• ...but Jesus didn't.

[peach]

Yes, which is why they'd have to come to me, rather than me walking into a trap and allying with people I don't really know or trust, like that Jesus dude.

 

So you would prefer Negan to attack your own compound, then?  After Gregory tells him, hey, take these guys instead of my head!