S02.E04: Gloves Off

[Dobian]

As much as I'm generally poised to hate Chuck, I thought his comments to Jimmy were pretty much on the money.  Which is why Jimmy will ultimately leave the law, and Saul will step in.

[ZaldamoWilder]

What a great episode.  This show continues to get better and better.

 

The Jimmy and Chuck confrontation was great and both Odenkirk and McKean nailed it.  There’s no denying a lot of what Chuck said was right.  Jimmy is the one who created this situation and he put Kim in a bad situation by lying about it.  Of course, Kim did herself no favors by covering for Jimmy.  She knows what he is and she willingly took the fall for him.

 

That being said, Chuck is still a detestable, passive-aggressive piece of shit.  I still can’t get behind him and he still makes Jimmy look better in comparison.  Loved Jimmy’s line about him having his hand up Hamlin’s ass, which was dead on.

 

I love how the show moved on from that confrontation to Mike’s storyline.  Nacho’s a terrific character and I like seeing him and Mike work off of each other.  Having Mike confront Tuco was epic.  It’s great that these two characters get to interact on Saul.

 

I thought that guy looked familiar but I didn’t realize that was Krazy 8.  Guy does legitimately look younger than he was several years ago.

 

Nice seeing Jim Beaver return as the world’s most polite gun trafficker.

 

Yes.  To all these words. 

 

Well, Jimmy didn't lose his job. I'm not sure if I'm happy about that or not. I don't think he cares for it very much. It really sucks that Kim is being punished even worse than him, though. How much of this is she going to take? As much as I dislike Chuck, he was right about the fact that Jimmy can't really see when he has a problem. When he wants to please someone, it's like he has tunnel vision. I just am not sure I understand how Kim got called into the office in the first place. Obviously Cliff Main called up HHM to bitch about the guy they strongly recommended. Did they just ASSUME that Kim knew about the video? I just think it's really unfair that she is getting blamed for something she had no clue about. I kept yelling at her to stand up for herself, say she had no idea! But, of course, she wants to protect Jimmy. Again, how long is she going to keep this up? 

 

I don't think there was an assumption necessarily but that the purpose of the meeting was to establish what she knew.  Howard knows that she and Jimmy have a special relationship.  He now needs to know what she's willing to risk to continue it.  I'm as surprised as he was that they didn't break up in the mailroom.  She's already told him, twice, don't shit where I eat.

 

Isn't he the best? He didn't even care that he lost a sale, he just really wants to help people. (Help them kill other people, but whatever....)

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I was thinking! I was all, "He only said JIMMY wouldn't practice again. Never said nothing about Saul". 

 

Lol!!

 

See? he makes an excellent attorney.  Because, wording. 

 

I read a few articles about it. Apparently it took an insane amount of effort to get the ABA to even look at online/remote law degrees with any seriousness. There are other paths--you can get law-adjacent degrees or certificates and then be "sponsored" by a practicing lawyer in a closely scrutinized fashion and then sit for the bar in a few states, but it seems that the ABA has had a stranglehold on education approval for some time. And even the Minnesota degree, which was approved just in the last few years, requires six or eight weeks of intense capstone study at the end of each semester on location at the campus. I actually had no idea this was a thing--it's not terribly unusual for doctors and veterinarians to get medical degrees in other countries and then get licensed in the US, but it seems that the law is quite different.

 

I've never stopped to think about it but wouldn't this be because the practice/application of medicine is the same everywhere in the world, but laws are specific to their own countries?

 

That wouldn't surprise me. My facial skin is very sensitive to certain ingredients, and adhesives like spirit gum give me a terrible rash. I can wear eyelash glue on my eyelashes with no problem, but once I used it to attach a mustache to my face (playing Walter White, coincidentally), and had a mustache-shaped rash on my face for weeks. Hilariously, I had a job interview the following Monday when the rash was at its worst, and the interview was at a law firm not unlike Saul Goodman's.

 

Well?  Did you get the job? :)

 

Tuco: Nacho problem no more.

 

bwahaaaa!  I see what you did there.

 

Hm, I seem to remember a showdown in the hallway of the hospital between Jimmy and the Doctor.  The Doctor wanted him committed right away and Jimmy took him home.

 

I only know this from bingewatching season 1 last month.  That showdown was between Jimmy and Howard, who'd come to the hospital to see how Chuck was doing, said him.  Jimmy resents the intrusion and Chuck's suggestion and stomps off down the hall saying that he and only he will decide what to do about his brother.  It happens to be a decision that coincides with Howard's but Jimmy hates the idea that Howard is there to do what's financially best for the firm not to help Chuck.  

 

Tangential necessary suspension of disbelief...Somebody at D&M would have had the good sense to alert the Guitar Man that they were about to have this potential telethon.  If, by some cray cray coincidence nobody breathed a word of it, his Administrative Assistant/Office Manager would have been severely reprimanded or fired for not knowing.  Enlisting all those secretaries and paralegals and the AA wouldn't know?  Puh-lease.

 

Actually I don't think this would be hard to get away with at all.  I don't even think it would be something as formal as collusion.  The only person likely to breathe a word of it to Guitar Man is his own assistant and she wasn't operating under Jimmy's directions.  Several AAs overheard Jimmy approach him about the idea of the commercial and tell him they'd talk about it some more.  They wouldn't be privy to any subsequent developments so from their perspective I could see nearly everybody thinking, oh look the sunnuvabitch pullled it off, now we're fielding calls from clients.  And for the one or two paying attention, they wouldn't start by telling (is his name Cliff?) because that violates the chain of command.  They'd start by asking Jimmy if the whole set up were legit.   

 

 

We haven't been shown that.  

 

If he's doing it all in order to manipulate people, he has really committed to the bit.  Yanking all your wires out and living without a refrigerator or A/C is a long way to go to consciously choose to manipulate others.

 

Yes but we have been shown that Jimmy (and Kim) know it's bullshit because of the stunt the doctor pulled in his room during season 1.  She turned some electric doohickey out of Chuck's line of sight (but within ours, Jimmy's and Kim's) on and he didn't flinch.  I think we're meant to understand that he believes it's real so (in his mind) it can't truly be manipulative if the cause is blameless.  I feel like I just went down a Rod Serling rabbit hole so that might not sound like it makes sense. 

 

How does Chuck find out when there's a meeting at HHM?

[Tatum]

As much as I'm generally poised to hate Chuck, I thought his comments to Jimmy were pretty much on the money.  Which is why Jimmy will ultimately leave the law, and Saul will step in.

 

I actually didn't hate Chuck after the revelation last season that it was Chuck, not Howard, that had been blocking Jimmy all this time. I didn't see his comment about how he loved when Jimmy was working in the mail room to mean that Chuck wanted to be the only wealthy successful one in the family- just that it was honest work and Jimmy was making a living doing something that didn't involve conning people. And Chuck seemed to have a pretty strict code of professional ethics that he didn't think Jimmy would be able to uphold. It was a bit chickenshitty of him to not just tell Jimmy that and instead let him believe Howard hated him for no reason, but I didn't think there was any malice in his decision.

 

This season, however, Chuck seems to be taking a particular glee in Jimmy's troubles at the new law firm, which does seem a little malicious. And while he at first seemed sympathetic to Kim when he realized she didn't know that the partners at the other law firm were unaware of the commercial before it ended, by the end of the scene he seemed to be of the thought that Kim deserved whatever she got after choosing to stick her neck out for Jimmy. That struck me as kind of mean spirited. He may not agree that it was a smart decision for Kim to lobby for Jimmy in any professional capacity, but that doesn't mean it's fair to punish her for what Jimmy does going forward.

[shapeshifter]

Watches can be non-electric.  That would be my assumption.  Some people upthread discussed the same thing.

 

If the showrunners meant for us to think that was proof of Chuck's being duplicitous, they failed.

I don't recall. Did they zoom in on the watch? Or is it just something we obsessives noticed? If they zoomed in, it must mean something that we will find out later.

 

This season, however, Chuck seems to be taking a particular glee in Jimmy's troubles at the new law firm, which does seem a little malicious. And while he at first seemed sympathetic to Kim when he realized she didn't know that the partners at the other law firm were unaware of the commercial before it ended, by the end of the scene he seemed to be of the thought that Kim deserved whatever she got after choosing to stick her neck out for Jimmy.

I didn't notice that part, but it could be that he was just hoping Kim would finally see Jimmy as he (Chuck) sees Jimmy.

And I think she is (sadly) pretty close to that viewpoint.

Edited March 10, 2016 by shapeshifter

[knaankos]

I guess that's the problem of this show in a nutshell. You know that Jimmy's efforts to stay on the straight and narrow will fail. You know that Jimmy, Mike, Tuco and Krazy 8 are not going to die, which tends to deflate the tension of any situations where their lives appear to be in peril. You know that Jimmy and Kim's friendship is doomed.

 

The show, in that anyone familiar with Breaking Bad knows the "ending" going in, is kind of like every movie about every historical event or historical figure of any note. Why bother, if we know how it ends? The answer, I think, is that the "how" of something happening can be just as interesting as the "what" of how it all ends up. Wanting to skip all the "boring" stuff to get to the end result of Jimmy's embrace of Saul Goodman and criminality is like fastforwarding through The Godfather to get to the scene where Michael closes the door. 

But there are still enough unknowns to keep things tense. For instance we don't know what happens with Nacho, Chuck, Howard, Kim etc

[Dev F]

I'm having a hard time parsing how the watch could indicate deliberate deception on Chuck's part. Wouldn't that mean that Chuck has a secret EM-emitting timepiece that he hides somewhere in his otherwise scrupulously EM-free home, and when no one's around he brings it out to enjoy the luxurious benefits of electric timekeeping while he cooks food from an ice-filled cooler on a camping stove in the dark? And on this particular occasion, on the off chance that Jimmy would stop by to check on him after weeks of estrangement, he wrapped himself up in his space blanket and curled up on the couch to trick his brother into thinking he was in pain, but in the midst of his not-actually-real suffering, he forgot to remove the one item that would expose his efforts as disingenuous?

 

Edited to add: Oh, I guess the somewhat less convoluted explanation is that Chuck was enjoying Secret Electric Watch Time when Jimmy stopped by, so he had to scramble to get under his space blanket and forgot to take the watch off. But why would he scramble to show worse than normal suffering, when the watch is the one thing he needs to hide just to prove that he was enduring any suffering at all?

Edited March 10, 2016 by Dev F

[ShadowFacts]

I'm inclined to think if the watch means anything at all, it will be part of Chuck's backstory.  It may tie into the law firm or Jimmy or possibly a past marriage.  I have noticed a ring on his left hand so I'm guessing we will find out about a wife or ex-wife at some point. 

[Clanstarling]

I love how Mike and Jimmy are both such good planners -- manipulators -- con men.  I worried about the cops arriving too soon, but figured maybe Mike knew which precinct to call.  He didn't dial 911 -- he dialed more than three numbers.  But even if the cops got there earlier, they'd still have Tuco with a gun.  The worst that could happen was Mike getting beat up for no reason.  Then on to Plan B.

I too, worried. But then I thought that it wouldn't be too hard to figure out response times in certain neighborhoods. Gun being sighted and reported or not, some areas do not get as speedy a response as others. And Mike, being an ex-cop, could either have a fairly good idea of how long it would take, or could have investigated (response times do get noted and some cities do publish them). Even so, it did seem like he cut it a tad close.

 

Good points about Kim.

 

I would have said "I was under the impression that the firm had approved the commercial." in a heartbeat.  It doesn't say "Jimmy lied to me."  It could just as easily imply it wasn't discussed, or that she had misunderstood.

 

That part WAS a stretch for me to believe, that she'd just stand there, with her career on the line, and say nothing.  She IS a lawyer after all, and supposedly equipped to deal with a situation like that.

Kim strikes me as a no excuses kind of woman. She won't use them to defend herself and she won't accept them from others. In this particular case, I think because whatever excuse she makes, she knows that she should have known, but even if she did, she knows she wouldn't snitch either. But mostly, it seems to me to be part of her basic makeup.

 

 

Watches can be non-electric.  That would be my assumption.  Some people upthread discussed the same thing.

 

If the showrunners meant for us to think that was proof of Chuck's being duplicitous, they failed.

Well, to be fair, I'd say they failed for some people, but not for others, as some of the other upthread discussion indicates.

 

The shot of the watch was prominent, and it made me stop. I did, eventually wave it off as a wind up kind of watch, but I do think it has some meaning.

 

The discussion has been interesting though. It never occurred to me that Chuck might be amping up his illness just a bit to avoid confrontation. I think I'm now convinced that is what happened. Not that he isn't ill, but that he's not above using it for his own purposes.

Edited March 10, 2016 by clanstarling

[Madding crowd]

This was established in the first season.  If Chuck is declared unfit, then he would have to cease being a partner.  Which means his share of the firm would need to be cashed out.  That would be a problem for the other partners.

I watched the first season. I just think that a group of very smart lawyers could find a way to force Chuck into getting some help or surrendering his partnership in a satisfactory way. People get sick and impaired all the time and the firms or businesses they are part of find a way to deal with the  situation without forcing people to cater to a sick person's delusions. 

[Umbelina]

To switch back to Mike, I was thinking that there were so many ways for his plan with Tuco to have failed.  For one thing, the timing--not only could the cops not have come in time to witness the attack, they might have come way too late.  Stacey had just recently told Mike that the cops took an hour to come for her shots fired call.  Also, there was no guarantee that Tuco would even be tried, much less convicted, for a felony.  There could be plea-bargaining, getting off on a technicality, etc.  Mike knows as a corrupt cop himself that Tuco might have even made it all go away with the right inducement to the 'right' cops.  Even though his reasoning to Nacho that the cartel's ears would perk up around a murder was sound, it still does not solve Nacho's problem of Tuco's volatility in possibly murdering him.  He said it's him or me and it still is, even with the successful execution of Mike's plan, Tuco is only neutralized for awhile.

There is an old (not so joke-y) joke.  If you want cops to arrive fast you NEVER say there is someone with a gun.  EVER.  Here is what you say, and why yes, since you will probably ask, I did do this once, (there was a scarier crime going down and I called it in from a pay phone, remember those, ah the days of anonymity and no cameras on every corner...) and it worked like a charm, SEVERAL cop cars arrived very fast.

 

"There are 4 teenage girls in a fight and they are tearing each others' clothes off!  I don't want my children to see this!"  ZOOM!  Cops!

 

The other thing that works is "Officer needs assistance." 

 

I did that one for my neighbor who WAS an officer, but in another nearby city who had apprehended a burglar outside my apartment building.  I added, per his instruction two other things.  "Off duty officer in civilian clothes from --- city." and "No rush, but he'd appreciate the help."  He had the guy contained physically but couldn't get to a phone, and I happened to arrive home right then.  Again, ZOOM!  So many cop cars within a minute!  I honestly didn't know we had that many cops in our small beach town. 

 

Mike would know that telling cops someone has a gun is a good reason to finish that donut and hope someone else responds.  Only semi-kidding.

 

I don't recall. Did they zoom in on the watch? Or is it just something we obsessives noticed? If they zoomed in, it must mean something that we will find out later.

 

 

Maybe the watch made him sick!  Ha.  Honestly, I didn't notice it, I have to remember to watch and listen to every single thing on these shows.

I'm inclined to think if the watch means anything at all, it will be part of Chuck's backstory.  It may tie into the law firm or Jimmy or possibly a past marriage.  I have noticed a ring on his left hand so I'm guessing we will find out about a wife or ex-wife at some point. 

We can't turn into a LOST forum.  Ha.  But yeah, that makes sense.

[Tatum]

I'm having a hard time parsing how the watch could indicate deliberate deception on Chuck's part. Wouldn't that mean that Chuck has a secret EM-emitting timepiece that he hides somewhere in his otherwise scrupulously EM-free home, and when no one's around he brings it out to enjoy the luxurious benefits of electric timekeeping while he cooks food from an ice-filled cooler on a camping stove in the dark? And on this particular occasion, on the off chance that Jimmy would stop by to check on him after weeks of estrangement, he wrapped himself up in his space blanket and curled up on the couch to trick his brother into thinking he was in pain, but in the midst of his not-actually-real suffering, he forgot to remove the one item that would expose his efforts as disingenuous?

Edited to add: Oh, I guess the somewhat less convoluted explanation is that Chuck was enjoying Secret Electric Watch Time when Jimmy stopped by, so he had to scramble to get under his space blanket and forgot to take the watch off. But why would he scramble to show worse than normal suffering, when the watch is the one thing he needs to hide just to prove that he was enduring any suffering at all?

I love this whole post so much. I can just see it now. "Ah, here I am at home alone where I can kick back and drop the act and enjoy watching the numbers change on my electronic watch- oh curses, my brother is here! And there's not enough time to both remove this watch AND dive under my space blanket! Well maybe he won't notice and blow my nefarious plan to hell..."

[ghoulina]

I love this forum. You guys are the funniest funnies to ever funny. 

 

Personally, if I was faking an EM sensitivity, I wouldn't put a watch on when alone. I'd catch up on some good TV!

 

And yea, I was one who didn't even notice the watch!

[BradandJanet]

First it's Chuck with the metronome. Now it's Chuck with a prominent watch. Something about time ticking away, perhaps?

[ShellSeeker]

And Mike, being an ex-cop, could either have a fairly good idea of how long it would take, or could have investigated (response times do get noted and some cities do publish them). Even so, it did seem like he cut it a tad close.

 

I bet he probably did do research and had a pretty good idea about how long it would take the cops to respond to his call. Mike is a very thorough guy, which works to his advantage because no one expects it from him. When he took his car to the upholstery place, and told Nacho that Wormald had gone to the cops about the break-in at his house, and the missing baseball cards, Nacho kind of rolled his eyes and figured it wasn't his problem...until he realized Mike had done his homework and figured out who Nacho was, and how much trouble he'd be in if Tuco knew what he'd been up to.

 

And maybe he put himself in that position voluntarily, as another way to punish himself for his son's death.

[DrSpaceman73]

The cost of humoring Chuck on his sensitivity to electronics is pretty small.  He seems to be able to conduct himself normally and provide counsel when he is there, so it's not like he is a complete liability when he comes to the office.

 

It's not hard to imagine that the partners have personal assistants who run errands for them, so Chuck's isn't that different.  Even if it is something just he enjoys, again, it's a small cost to keep the partner happy.

 

As for Howard and Chuck's backstory, maybe that will be the next prequel?

I think Chuck's problem is a bigger liability for the firm than they ever acknowledge.

They made a huge deal out of one simple commercial played in one market for 30 seconds due to the PR ramifications, basically. The two firms talk about image and brand, basically, and use that an a big reason why the commercial was such a big deal

Chuck's obviously psychiatric issues, though, I imagine have a big negative impact on HHM's view in the law community. It seems to be known outside the firm. The lawyers from the nursing home last year knew something about it. I can't imagine it's something that encourages business to come there way.

ALso I wonder how Chuck gets around town. Does he drive a car? Or have someone drive him? How old must his car be to not have any photoelectric gadgets in it? CLock? Electric radio? Does he have those turned off? Isn't there bound to be something in any modern cars that have some type of electromagnetic field?

[carrps]

They went to great trouble in the final sequence with the dirt being whipped up to effect Mike as a "ghost."  Didja notice how he just whipped the car back and out of the picture?  We never hear the car driving off.  Then, the remaining shot left the appearance that someone was there, but is not there.  Fantasma.

 

 

I freaking loved that scene.

[shapeshifter]

I think Chuck's problem is a bigger liability for the firm than they ever acknowledge.

They made a huge deal out of one simple commercial played in one market for 30 seconds due to the PR ramifications, basically. The two firms talk about image and brand, basically, and use that an a big reason why the commercial was such a big deal

Chuck's obviously psychiatric issues, though, I imagine have a big negative impact on HHM's view in the law community. It seems to be known outside the firm. The lawyers from the nursing home last year knew something about it. I can't imagine it's something that encourages business to come there way.

Excellent point. I'm surprised none of us seemed to notice that parallel in this episode. It's a very Vince Gilligan thing to do. Other shows also use parallel plots (The Closer was good at it), but this is so subtle and yet profound. Jimmy's bad for the firm's image and yet Chuck is not? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me, now that you mention it.

[ShadowFacts]

Excellent point. I'm surprised none of us seemed to notice that parallel in this episode. It's a very Vince Gilligan thing to do. Other shows also use parallel plots (The Closer was good at it), but this is so subtle and yet profound. Jimmy's bad for the firm's image and yet Chuck is not? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me, now that you mention it.

 

I wonder how Chuck's illness would be handled by the firm if he wasn't a named partner.  What with the Americans with Disabilities Act and all.  I don't know how that would play out in real life.  The difference between Chuck's illness and Jimmy's unorthodox methods is fairly big.  Chuck seems to be highly respected in the Albuquerque legal community, and now he's ill.  Jimmy was a hero in a billboard caper who solicits clients in person and produces a tacky commercial.  Jimmy seems like the bigger liability to the firm.  Wasn't it Chuck who recognized the RICO violations and made the $20 million demand to the Sandpiper lawyers?  He's still functioning at a pretty high level when it comes to the law it seems.

[DrSpaceman73]

I wonder how Chuck's illness would be handled by the firm if he wasn't a named partner.  What with the Americans with Disabilities Act and all.  I don't know how that would play out in real life.  The difference between Chuck's illness and Jimmy's unorthodox methods is fairly big.  Chuck seems to be highly respected in the Albuquerque legal community, and now he's ill.  Jimmy was a hero in a billboard caper who solicits clients in person and produces a tacky commercial.  Jimmy seems like the bigger liability to the firm.  Wasn't it Chuck who recognized the RICO violations and made the $20 million demand to the Sandpiper lawyers?  He's still functioning at a pretty high level when it comes to the law it seems.

I recall it being mostly Jimmy that recognized the RICO violations and who did most of the negotiating with the Nursing home lawyers when Chuck froze up during the initial meeting. He went to Chuck for advice and because it was a case he could not handle on his own, he needed a firm to back it up, but it was mostly Jimmy

If Chuck was not a partner, he would not be working there. He would be declared disabled and collecting private and federal disability, either based on his electromagnetic problem or a psychiatric claim based on that problem.

In addition, while rewatching it, it struck me they were drawing paralells between how Jimmy works and how Mike works. And the results. Jimmy sees an oppurtunity and just barrels forward, makes the commercial on his own, has great results but pisses everyone off because he didn't think it out. Mike, on the other hand, thought about EVERYTHING, consulted with his "partner" the whole time, even though that partner is a drug dealer and came up with a plan to minimize risk and still accomplish the task. Completely different approaches.

To take things a step further, Mike this episode is very much like Walt in Breaking Bad, considering every detail of the plan as Walt did many times with Jesse, step by step. I know we all love Mike and he certainly has his good points, but he has a whole lot in common with Walt. (Or did, or will, depending on whatever tense you want to use based on the shows timeframe). Actually Walt is/was a bit like Jimmy and Mike all rolled up into one. For the most part he was cold, calculating, thoughtful about every little thing they did, but then at times he would take huge risks like Jimmy. When necessary at least.

Someone pointed out too in a recap I read, not here but elsewhere : DId Mike just use a "half measure" when he needed a "full measure".

Also I missed this the first time, Kim tells Jimmy "If you go to Howard we're done", paraphrasing. What does Jimmy do? Goes to Howard anyway. The break up may be sooner than anticipated.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

The parallel of the law firms dealing with "image" problems doesn't quite work for me.  There most certainly is great care taken by HHM to put on a powerful and reliable front.  No doubt.  However, everything they are doing anymore is informed by the threat of the break-up, or buyout, of the firm if Chuck invokes his cash out clauses.  THAT, is the master HHM partners are serving, in my opinion.  

 

I may be repeating myself in re Mike's Tuco scheme.  I could not help but notice just how picayune Mike was being as he refused to shoot Tuco.  Yet, sooooo much needed to go just perfect for his ultimate plan, which we saw executed.  On the one hand, it demonstrated just how freaking badass and cool Mike is.  Clint Eastwood and Dirty Harry could take notes from that guy!  But, for me, it was far too much out of character for Mike to have taken so many chances for this one result.  It was not written anywhere that this all had to go down at this spot at this time.  That was Nacho's first suggestion.  Mike was not restricted to adopting this.  

 

It was all a miss for me.  YMMV.   

Edited March 12, 2016 by Lonesome Rhodes

[xyzzy]

 I could not help but notice just how picayune Mike was being as he refused to shoot Tuco.  Yet, sooooo much needed to go just perfect for his ultimate plan, which we saw executed. 

 

I think he was being picayune because he thought that killing Tuco was the worst choice, so he was downplaying the merits of Nacho's fairly simple plan. I think Mike was absolutely in character--when dealing with idiotic, drug addled, or skittish criminals (Walt, Nacho, Humvee Nerd Drug Dealer, Lydia, Jesse) Mike has always taken on this practical, naysaying persona and has been known to playact in elaborate schemes to gain a psychological advantage. On BrBa there was this whole thing where Jesse "saves" Mike from "rival dealers" who were actually working for Mike in order to get Jesse on Fring's side and cement his break with Walt. I saw this scene with Tuco and Nacho as more of the same.

 

One thing has always been true of Mike--his client's best interests are his chief concern because they are usually also his best interests. Mo'  money, fewer problems. If he sees his client behaving in an unnecessarily risky manner, he either ends the relationship or does his utmost to convince them that they're wrong. The most deferential I ever saw him was to Fring.

[peeayebee]

I'm sure Mike not wanting to shoot Tuco was at least partially related to the death of his son and his DIL's fear of guns. I'm sure over the course of BCS we'll see him change just like we're seeing Saul.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I recall it being mostly Jimmy that recognized the RICO violations and who did most of the negotiating with the Nursing home lawyers when Chuck froze up during the initial meeting. He went to Chuck for advice and because it was a case he could not handle on his own, he needed a firm to back it up, but it was mostly Jimmy

 

Jimmy certainly did all of the legwork (and dumpster diving).  But I think it was Chuck who found the smoking gun of the invoice for syringes or something and recognized the multi-state fraudulent/RICO aspects after Jimmy had gone to sleep after being up all night putting together shredded documents. 

 

I may be repeating myself in re Mike's Tuco scheme.  I could not help but notice just how picayune Mike was being as he refused to shoot Tuco.  Yet, sooooo much needed to go just perfect for his ultimate plan, which we saw executed.  On the one hand, it demonstrated just how freaking badass and cool Mike is.  Clint Eastwood and Dirty Harry could take notes from that guy!  But, for me, it was far too much out of character for Mike to have taken so many chances for this one result.  It was not written anywhere that this all had to go down at this spot at this time.  That was Nacho's first suggestion.  Mike was not restricted to adopting this.

 

Absolutely.  He did not know what Tuco would do at any juncture and Nacho had made it clear how volatile Tuco is.  He described how Tuco killed somebody he liked, so all bets are off as to someone who pisses him off.   It happened to go down just as he hoped it would, but Mike strikes me as too calculating to leave as much to chance as he did. 

[Umbelina]

I'm kind of torn, but I see what some of you are saying about the whole "Mike way of handling it" being a tad far-fetched.

 

We do know Mike dialed more than 3 numbers (911) so we do know he knew to call the nearest station directly, to improve response time.

 

BUT, as I said, I think it's a stretch to think that whatever cops were on duty want to rush over to a scene involving a gun.  In my experience, they respond faster to other things, such as a girl fight involving nudity, or an officer in trouble.  Mike would know that.

 

The other part I have a hard time with is we have SEEN Tuco beat a much younger, much fitter, man to death in a short time period.  True, it was on BB, but most of us watched that.  Could an old man like Mike really take that much abuse, and would he even risk it, knowing he could be killed, or brain damaged?

 

It was a spectacular scene, but on close examination their were too many variables, and Mike was damn lucky it went down as it did.  The gun, the beating, so very dependent on cops arriving fast, hell, they could have been out on some other crimes or a big car accident, or in a meeting, anything could have delayed them, flat tire, or as I said the reluctance to rush to a gun scene.

 

On the plus side, on thing I really liked was the close ups of Mike holding on to that building.  He did NOT want to go down, probably knew he'd be kicked to death if he did.

 

ETA

I'd find the whole thing MUCH more believable if Mike had called the cops with a different report, especially anything about a cop in trouble.  It would be funnier if he'd used mine though, teenage girl fight with nudity.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Umbelina

[Ronin Jackson]

The overly convoluted ways of solving complicated problems has been a part of the BB/BCS universe for a while... for me it's just part of the appeal of it. Who can forget Walt's plan to get Jesse on his side at the end of Season 4? There were so many minute details that had to go exactly as Walt planned, which could have been disastrous if they went another way, that it's downright absurd if you are expecting anything like realism. Any fictional universe has different sets of rules and logic, some which correlate with real world logic and some that don't. The BB/BCS universe clearly is one where intelligent criminals think several moves in advance and accurately project exactly how people unwittingly involved in their plans will respond. So even if it's far fetched in the real world, I'll embrace that in the BB/BCS world, Mike can get a read on Tuco and predict how he'll react, and also get an accurate projection of how long it'll take for police to arrive on scene after an anonymous tip at a certain location at a certain time of day.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Ronin Jackson

[Umbelina]

True, but Walt's plans were based on factors he either knew a lot about or could mostly control, for example, the Jesse con above.  He knew Jesse VERY well.

 

Mike's, in this episode, depended on just how hard Tuco hit his aging body, and whether or not the cops would arrive in time to stop Tuco before he killed him.  He didn't really know local cops, but I guess it could be argued that he knew cops in general, which is why I think he would  have said something else on that phone call.  I mean, even implying that he thought the person in danger was an off duty cop would have done it.

 

Also, the gun being knocked away was a long shot too.  Tuco could have just shot him.  I mean, he depended on his skills there as well, but damn, what if Tuco held it a different way, or Mike couldn't reach it, or any of many other factors happened?

Edited March 12, 2016 by Umbelina

[Ohwell]

But isn't that one of the tenets of television and movies--that much of what happens in them would rarely (or never) happen like that in real life?  The kind of stuff that generates an "Only on TV" thread?   I've long since given up on "what ifs" as long as I'm enjoying watching the show or movie.  I'd drive myself crazy otherwise.

[Milburn Stone]

BUT, as I said, I think it's a stretch to think that whatever cops were on duty want to rush over to a scene involving a gun.  In my experience, they respond faster to other things, such as a girl fight involving nudity

 

The problem with Mike calling in a girl fight involving nudity is that the police will rush over there all right--but then when they find a guy getting the shit beat out of him, and no girl fight involving nudity, they'll rescue the guy--but they'll also know something was fishy about the phone call. Which could cause one of them to get curious in a manner that Mike doesn't want.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Milburn Stone

[Ronin Jackson]

 

Also, the gun being knocked away was a long shot too.  Tuco could have just shot him.  I mean, he depended on his skills there as well, but damn, what if Tuco held it a different way, or Mike couldn't reach it, or any of many other factors happened?

 

That goes back to what I was saying about a fictional universe establishing a set of rules and following it, even if it doesn't work in real life. In BCS they established Mike as a guy with an ability to quickly disarm someone with a gun, and someone who is very confident in that ability (going back to the parking lot scene last season -- I'd contrast this to The Walking Dead, which establishes a set of rules and ignores them when it's inconvenient to the plot). So if he's confident about it he would make sure he's close enough to do it. Also, we can probably assume Mike has a life insurance policy that would benefit his granddaughter, so that could be another motive to take such a risk. She's pretty much all he's living for.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Ronin Jackson

[knaankos]

I'm kind of torn, but I see what some of you are saying about the whole "Mike way of handling it" being a tad far-fetched.

 

We do know Mike dialed more than 3 numbers (911) so we do know he knew to call the nearest station directly, to improve response time.

 

BUT, as I said, I think it's a stretch to think that whatever cops were on duty want to rush over to a scene involving a gun.  In my experience, they respond faster to other things, such as a girl fight involving nudity, or an officer in trouble.  Mike would know that.

 

The other part I have a hard time with is we have SEEN Tuco beat a much younger, much fitter, man to death in a short time period.  True, it was on BB, but most of us watched that.  Could an old man like Mike really take that much abuse, and would he even risk it, knowing he could be killed, or brain damaged?

 

It was a spectacular scene, but on close examination their were too many variables, and Mike was damn lucky it went down as it did.  The gun, the beating, so very dependent on cops arriving fast, hell, they could have been out on some other crimes or a big car accident, or in a meeting, anything could have delayed them, flat tire, or as I said the reluctance to rush to a gun scene.

 

On the plus side, on thing I really liked was the close ups of Mike holding on to that building.  He did NOT want to go down, probably knew he'd be kicked to death if he did.

 

ETA

I'd find the whole thing MUCH more believable if Mike had called the cops with a different report, especially anything about a cop in trouble.  It would be funnier if he'd used mine though, teenage girl fight with nudity.

 

 

There was also the chance that the cops could have showed up too early and then seen Tuco only talking with Mike. Then in that case what could Mike have done? 

[Dev F]

There was also the chance that the cops could have showed up too early and then seen Tuco only talking with Mike. Then in that case what could Mike have done? 

 

But Mike timed his escalation to the arrival of the cops. The rest was just him stalling and acting like a harmless old fart. If the cops had arrived earlier, he just would've grabbed Tuco sooner.

[peeayebee]

Also, the gun being knocked away was a long shot too.  Tuco could have just shot him.  I mean, he depended on his skills there as well, but damn, what if Tuco held it a different way, or Mike couldn't reach it, or any of many other factors happened?

In addition to what Ronin Jackson posted, Tuco was caught off-guard because of the doddering old man ruse Mike used. If Mike had behaved as he really is, Tuco would have been more careful and on edge.

 

BTW, I loved how Mike spoke on the phone when he reported the fight he was witnessing. It cracked me up.

[Clanstarling]

We do know Mike dialed more than 3 numbers (911) so we do know he knew to call the nearest station directly, to improve response time.

 

BUT, as I said, I think it's a stretch to think that whatever cops were on duty want to rush over to a scene involving a gun.  In my experience, they respond faster to other things, such as a girl fight involving nudity, or an officer in trouble.  Mike would know that.

I can't claim be expert in police procedure. But I do work with the DPS in my area. Here, dialing the full phone number takes you to the non-emergency line, which does not get you the immediate service of 911 whose dispatchers route the calls to the nearest units, wherever they may be. So my take on Mike calling the regular phone line was that it was a deliberate stalling tactic.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that cops want to rush to gun involved incidents - I think that for most neighborhoods that is indeed what they would do. But I do agree that in this case, a troubled neighborhood, they often don't roll quickly to that kind of call. Which, I think, Mike was depending on. He wasn't trying to get them there too fast, but just fast enough to play out his strategy. As Dev F said, it wasn't until he heard the sirens that he started truly escalating the situation.

Edited March 13, 2016 by clanstarling

[shapeshifter]

As Dev F said, it wasn't until he heard the sirens that he started truly escalating the situation.

In the episode, this bit gives Mike's strategy credibility.

It's not just the plan, it's the execution and how he responds to cues such as the sirens, but also Tuco's responses.

Did Mike hold onto the post so that Tuco wouldn't get him on the ground and stomp him to death? Or was that strategy to make sure they were upright and visible when the cops arrived?

[Captanne]

The character of Mike can be a bit cartoonish and super-hero-ish, I admit.  But I had no problem with his setup.  It was far preferable to the sniper idea.  Why kill when you can incarcerate?  It tells us a lot about Mike.

[ByTor]

I just watched this yesterday. As far as Kim is concerned, the way she's been characterized I definitely don't think that throwing Jimmy under the bus is something she'd ever do. All she had to do was tell Howard & Chuck something like "With all due respect, since the commercial was aired, why would I think it may have not been approved and should have been brought to your attention?  Why would I have even thought to ask if it was approved?"  I mean, what do they expect, Kim to micromanage everything Jimmy (who doesn't even work for her) does to make sure it's all on the up & up? 

 

Somebody mentioned upthread about the possibility of Hank being a character here.  The thought of that makes me positively giddy...not that it has anything to do with my crush on Dean Norris or anything like that :)

[peeayebee]

Did Mike hold onto the post so that Tuco wouldn't get him on the ground and stomp him to death? Or was that strategy to make sure they were upright and visible when the cops arrived?

Tuco was trying to get away from Mike, but Mike held onto Tuco's shirt, IIRC. I think Mike was also holding onto the post so the scene would look to the cops more like Tuco being the aggressor, otherwise it would have been Tuco pulling away from Mike with Mike holding onto him. I haven't rewatched, but that's what I recall.

[Umbelina]

I can't claim be expert in police procedure. But I do work with the DPS in my area. Here, dialing the full phone number takes you to the non-emergency line, which does not get you the immediate service of 911 whose dispatchers route the calls to the nearest units, wherever they may be. So my take on Mike calling the regular phone line was that it was a deliberate stalling tactic.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that cops want to rush to gun involved incidents - I think that for most neighborhoods that is indeed what they would do. But I do agree that in this case, a troubled neighborhood, they often don't roll quickly to that kind of call. Which, I think, Mike was depending on. He wasn't trying to get them there too fast, but just fast enough to play out his strategy. As Dev F said, it wasn't until he heard the sirens that he started truly escalating the situation.

Here, 911 goes to county, and it's a far flung country, cops could be well over an hour away.  The local number gets us to the city cops, never more that 5 minutes away, usually less.

 

I just watched this yesterday. As far as Kim is concerned, the way she's been characterized I definitely don't think that throwing Jimmy under the bus is something she'd ever do. All she had to do was tell Howard & Chuck something like "With all due respect, since the commercial was aired, why would I think it may have not been approved and should have been brought to your attention?  Why would I have even thought to ask if it was approved?"  I mean, what do they expect, Kim to micromanage everything Jimmy (who doesn't even work for her) does to make sure it's all on the up & up? 

 

Somebody mentioned upthread about the possibility of Hank being a character here.  The thought of that makes me positively giddy...not that it has anything to do with my crush on Dean Norris or anything like that :)

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said earlier.  She's not much of a lawyer if she can't (a) think on her feet, and (b) know how to say something that exonerates her while not making things worse for Jimmy.  Yes I saw it, I assumed others at the (Jimmy's) firm had as well.  (or whatever) 

 

Tuco was trying to get away from Mike, but Mike held onto Tuco's shirt, IIRC. I think Mike was also holding onto the post so the scene would look to the cops more like Tuco being the aggressor, otherwise it would have been Tuco pulling away from Mike with Mike holding onto him. I haven't rewatched, but that's what I recall.

That, and to not "go down" from a punch, which would be very, very dangerous.

[Clanstarling]

Here, 911 goes to county, and it's a far flung country, cops could be well over an hour away.  The local number gets us to the city cops, never more that 5 minutes away, usually less.

It is interesting how much things vary. Our 911 serves both city and county. The county is huge, but is served by a bare bones department due to tax issues. The city is well staffed (due to higher property taxes), and we are small enough to get pretty rapid response, no matter where we are in the city.

I wonder what the setup is in Albuquerque (or is it Santa Fe? I can never keep it straight).

Edited March 13, 2016 by clanstarling

[ByTor]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said earlier.  She's not much of a lawyer if she can't (a) think on her feet, and (b) know how to say something that exonerates her while not making things worse for Jimmy.  Yes I saw it, I assumed others at the (Jimmy's) firm had as well.  (or whatever)

It's not even a matter of thinking on her feet, it was the truth. She did know the commercial aired, she obviously assumed it was approved as she expressed surprise that it was, and Jimmy didn't deny that he got it approved.  The only lie would be the omission that Jimmy never said anything, but she doesn't seem the type to do that to a friend.

Edited March 13, 2016 by ByTor

[Captanne]

peeyaybee, Mike was indeed holding the post.  I noticed it an thought it was kind of weird.  So I remember it vividly.

[qtpye]

To those of you commenting about how much younger Crazy 8 looked here compared to Breaking Bad, there is an actor's trick where if you make you're eyes wider, when playing a younger version of yourself.  John Hamm used to do this on Mad Men to great affect and he is not a naturally youthful looking guy.

 

I wish this would work in real life.  If I walked around with my eyes really wide open, people would probably just think I started smoking some Blue Sky meth.

 

I am surprised at how many people find Nacho attractive.  I adore the actor, but Nacho always looks like an angry bird to me.

 

Even though Chuck can be insufferable, he is right about Jimmy's trajectory.  I mean, he does not look very happy managing that Cinnabun.

Edited March 14, 2016 by qtpye

[SignGuy77]

I am surprised at how many people find Nacho attractive. I adore the actor, but Nacho always looks like an angry bird to me.

To each his own, but I totally agree on the angry bird look.

[RCharter]

I watched the first season. I just think that a group of very smart lawyers could find a way to force Chuck into getting some help or surrendering his partnership in a satisfactory way. People get sick and impaired all the time and the firms or businesses they are part of find a way to deal with the  situation without forcing people to cater to a sick person's delusions. 

 

 

Jimmy certainly did all of the legwork (and dumpster diving).  But I think it was Chuck who found the smoking gun of the invoice for syringes or something and recognized the multi-state fraudulent/RICO aspects after Jimmy had gone to sleep after being up all night putting together shredded documents. 

 

 

I think that HHM also doesn't get rid of Chuck because he is actually an asset.  An asset of the best variety for Howard.  Chuck can do all this work, come up with great legal strategy and Howard gets to take all the credit for it.  After all, you're probably not going to have a client meeting with a partner who can't be in the room with a cell phone.  Chuck would understand that and would likely happily let Howard take the credit.  Chuck is also not going to any other firm anytime soon with all his demands.  Of course, the million dollar buyout is another factor, but that sort of litigation ostensibly could drag out for years, and I dont see Chuck as the sort that would really want to fight that fight and would just take whatever buyout offer Howard made.  If for no other reason I think Chuck would be mortified for his affliction to be a subject in open court.

[Bryce Lynch]

Chuck is definitely bullshitting everyone. His :"sickness" is the ultimate in passive aggressive manipulation to dictate the terms to everyone around him. I would like to know the backstory of how his "illness" came about. It's a total mental illness. There are no studies that show his "illness" has any basis in physical reality.

That's a total overreaction by them in what they did to Kim, just for sort of knowing about the commercial. And of course she could have protested about not knowing the whole truth, not sure why she didn't. Its just once again him being passive aggressive though. He doesn't want to admit he is punishing her to really punish Jimmy, so he denies it, but it's obvious that is what he is doing. Or actually not him, he has his law partner do it all for him. That is how he works.

I don't imagine she and Jimmy will last the season, I am assuming the season arc will be the story of their relationship and split.

Chuck genuinely believes in his "illness". Remember the scene where he nearly got arrested for stealing his neighbor's newspaper? He was completely terrified to leave the house and "felt" the em field from the power lines "attacking" him.

I do feel he believes it is now more under control and he will feign an attack from time to time to manipulate people.

[shapeshifter]

I am surprised at how many people find Nacho attractive.  I adore the actor, but Nacho always looks like an angry bird to me.

To each his own, but I totally agree on the angry bird look.

I'd say an attractive Angry Bird. He's definitely conveying more hotness in this show than in Orphan Black, where he was kind of a doofus.

[RCharter]

I'd say an attractive Angry Bird. He's definitely conveying more hotness in this show than in Orphan Black, where he was kind of a doofus.

Thank you -- I didn't want to be the one to say it.  But I totally see the Angry Bird in Nacho, and I still find him hot.  

 

This entire line of conversation makes me want to play Angry Birds, but I'm sort of the worst at that game, so I'll pass.

[Ohwell]

Angry Bird Nacho is hot.  He can peck at me any time he wants.