S02.E08: Episode 8

[formerlyfreedom]

In an episode that features interviews with real-life Columbine teachers, along with parents and victims of LGBT bullying, Leyland High School mourns the loss of one of their own, while Leslie finds her job on the line in the aftermath of the tragedy; Curt tries to file a missing person’s report with the police when he suspects his estranged wife, Lilah, has run off with their son, Peter, after she blames him for son Eric’s sexuality; Becca makes a startling confession to Dan; and Sebastian reaches out to Anne in an attempt to help her bring retribution to those who caused her son Taylor’s downfall.

 

[Primetimer]

Everyone's dealing with the fallout from Taylor's actions by coming apart at the seams, making power plays, leaving town, and deciding enough is enough and it's time to fight back.

Read the story

[janeta]

Did i miss an ep, or is this the first time the beatdown has been addressed?

[PQuinn]

Team: help me out. I thought something was off in Mr Tanner's: "But if you want something else, I'm here, same as always. I'm here." It didn't feel right to me.

Other than that. How's everyone doing? I'm still a fucking mess.

[Fisher King]

Team: help me out. I thought something was off in Mr Tanner's: "But if you want something else, I'm here, same as always. I'm here." It didn't feel right to me.

 

I thought that was kind of odd. Surely Eric's mother isn't right about the father?

[PQuinn]

That's what I got too. But I'm wondering if it's because it was so close to her freak out and it planted a seed. And I couldn't/can't get a read on Eric's expression.

[represent]

 

Team: help me out. I thought something was off in Mr Tanner's: "But if you want something else, I'm here, same as always. I'm here." It didn't feel right to me.

If you mean that is sounded like the mother's accusations about him might be right, no, I didn't get that vibe. Especially when Eric looked up with his eyes filled with tears and his face said to me, oh maybe he doesn't hate me, maybe my dad doesn't hate me. 

 

I thought the father went from not being able to look Eric in the face an episode or two ago when Eric wanted to talk to him about being gay, to finally trying to come to terms with all that has/is happening and trying to connect with him. Because his ex-wife and other son have disappeared and his son Eric is all he has left. He's there and he needs him, so I thought he was trying to improve on his fathering skills, that's all. 

 

He definitely does not comes off as ignorant as his ex-wife that's for sure.

 

I think Eric seeing that his father does care, unlike his mother and brother who have scorned him and taken off, gave him some strength to tell Kevin about his sorry ass. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by represent

[PQuinn]

Thank you! There's so much to process in this episode but that was the one thing I couldn't figure out.

[Auntie Anxiety]

So much to think about in this episode including all the kids involved and how their parents are trying to protect and help them, just like Taylor's mom, yet she is the one who people say is crazy.  No one is willing to take responsibility (well, Becca stepped up), most of all Leslie.  Parents blaming each other for their kids' behaviors. The realization that people are allowing themselves to be manipulated.  And all this happening at the inner city high school at the same time.

 

Can't wait to see what dirt Sebastian finds on Leyland.

[Madding crowd]

I didn't find anything odd about a father saying he would be there for his son; that is what is supposed to happen. Sadly, there are parents like Eric's mom who try to prevent a parent from bonding with their child thru accusations. I'm really confused about Sebastian. He lives in Milwaukee, but packs up his daughters and goes to Indianapolis because he thinks he can dig up dirt on the school? It doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Leslie shouldn't be surprised that the board is throwing her to the wolves. People like that have no loyalty and often go through lots of principals and headmasters because of a little thing which could cause bad publicity. Something this big would surely get her ostracized. Of course she has it coming. The interesting thing about the show is that a lot of people have a piece of the guilt here.

 

I predicted I wouldn't want to see the parents and teachers in real life and I didn't change my mind. They have powerful stories to tell, but I didn't think a fictional drama was the right place. On another note: I think the coaches daughter looks way older than the other actors playing teens, I find her distracting. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by Madding crowd

[represent]

 

He lives in Milwaukee, but packs up his daughters and goes to Indianapolis because he thinks he can dig up dirt on the school? It doesn't make sense to me.

The way he was staring at the coach and the team pictures on his computer I began to think that maybe he was an alumni of the school. Someone like Taylor, who was a low income student and then something went down and he got a raw deal just like Taylor. There's already been one parent who's confronted Anne about how the school treated his daughter so, this seems to be a pattern.

Edited February 25, 2016 by represent

[Rowan]

My take on the Eric and his Dad moment was that he was saying you don't have to go and meet up with strangers and put yourself in danger and hide. He was saying he would try and be there to help him figure out how to try and navigate this out in the open.

At least I hope that's what he was getting at. It never occurred to me that he was was hinting at something awful.

[Fisher King]

Yes, thank you, represent and Rowan.

 

It's unreal the emotions swirl around while watching this show.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Fisher King

[ToukieSmith]

Leslie shouldn't be surprised that the board is throwing her to the wolves. People like that have no loyalty and often go through lots of principals and headmasters because of a little thing which could cause bad publicity. Something this big would surely get her ostracized. Of course she has it coming. The interesting thing about the show is that a lot of people have a piece of the guilt here.

 

I understand her surprise because she did what they wanted her to do.  Yet, she doesn't see that they are doing the same thing that she did to Taylor.

 

I was furious with the Coach and his hypocritical ass.  He had the audacity to lecture Leslie when he could have stepped up and investigated the rape allegations his damn self.  He could have laid down the law with his own players and outed his own bad actors.  He cares about winning and the prestige of being the coach. It was sickening to watch the stars in his eyes, wielding clout that allowed him to have a say in Leslie's termination.  He wanted her gone so he could step into the inner circle, not because she mishandled the Taylor situation.  

 

When his daughter admitted that she sold drugs to Taylor, he immediately went into protect mode to save her ass instead of taking her to the police department to make a statement. 

 

If I were Taylor's mother, I would be very suspicious of the guy with the little girls.  She needs the dirt for the court case, not to flame the school.

[izabella]

I was glad that at least Becca's mother's first instinct was to tell the police.  I'm not quite sure if Coach talked her out of it or not.

 

So Eric and Kevin confirmed that Kevin provided the booze, the drugs, and the girls for the party. 

[numbnut]

Ugh. Those testimonials. More overkill. I feel bludgeoned. Tony Kaye did the same thing with American History X and the film was re-edited to take them out. The constant interruptions kept taking me out of the story. And all that extra time could have gone into the script to develop Sebastian's storyline instead of milking his too-small arc. One testimonial at the top of each episode would have been less bludgeon-y. OK. Rant over. So where were Sebastian's kids when he was talking to Taylor's mom? Will Kevin confess something or will he skate? I kinda felt bad for Leslie because she's pretty clueless, but she deserves to go. And I guess Coach will be exposed as the pervy teacher as well as a self-absorbed ass, and his wife will leave him. And Eric's mom is going to raise her younger son to be a monster. Nice.

Edited February 25, 2016 by numbnut

[jb1183]

Am I the only one who picked up on the significance of Taylor's name being spoken? Dan finally used it when he was throwing things back in Leslie's face. It was the first time I remember anyone at Leyland (other than the nice secretary) actually saying his name other than in a completely matter of fact informational manner. The administration and staff has mostly just referred to him as "that boy" and the team has referred to him as "that little bitch." Then Becca mentions his name when confessing to Dan and Dan flips out and by the time Steph gets home Dan is back to calling Taylor "the kid who shot Wes" and "the shooter."

 

And perhaps even more strikingly and importantly, Eric uses Taylor's name when confronting Kevin, which I think is meant to signal a shift in Eric's attitude about all that has happened.

 

Good God, this show is incredible. Every performance from the main actors is award worthy. Rarely do I have the sense that I'm watching a genuine masterpiece unfold before my eyes, but I do here. What I most admire is the complexity of it all, and the way that the excellent writing and acting is able to make me change my mind and begin to sympathize with characters I initially found off-putting while also revealing the dark sides of those who initially seemed decent. It's a tricky balancing act and it has been done flawlessly so far.  

[Woebegone]

So Eric and Kevin confirmed that Kevin provided the booze, the drugs, and the girls for the party. 

 

Of all the things we didn't know about the party that they could have revealed, this was probably one we could have already guessed. I mean, Eric obviously didn't pay for it. He doesn't have the money.

 

I thought it was interesting how his father brought up the fact that Eric likes to feel sorry for himself, but doesn't want to take any responsibility for what he's done wrong. Like, he blamed Kevin for sending the team after Taylor, saying that they forced him into making that call, but doesn't acknowledge that he could have stood up to those guys and said no.

 

Overall I thought the episode was rather uneven. The interviews were powerful, but the drama parts were kind of hit or miss. Eric and his father's conversation felt kind of heavy-handed to me. And what was going on with Becca's actress in that confession scene? 

[jb1183]

I understand her surprise because she did what they wanted her to do.  Yet, she doesn't see that they are doing the same thing that she did to Taylor.

 

I was furious with the Coach and his hypocritical ass.  He had the audacity to lecture Leslie when he could have stepped up and investigated the rape allegations his damn self.  He could have laid down the law with his own players and outed his own bad actors.  He cares about winning and the prestige of being the coach. It was sickening to watch the stars in his eyes, wielding clout that allowed him to have a say in Leslie's termination.  He wanted her gone so he could step into the inner circle, not because she mishandled the Taylor situation.  

 

And what's fascinating is that I'm sure there were many viewers who watched that scene between him and Leslie play out and went, "You tell her, Coach!" like he was the hero of the scene. I interpreted the scene the same way you did. His criticisms of her are certainly valid, but he has just as much blood on his hands as she does and lecturing her about "taking responsibility" is laughable in the face of his own refusal to do just that himself.

Edited February 25, 2016 by jb1183

[FiveByFive]

I don't mean to sound insensitive (which means I'm totally about to sound insensitive ...) but while the interview portions were moving ... I would have preferred they be at the end of the episode so I could have watched the entire episode without the intrusion. 

 

Also this season went from rape to gay bashing to a school shooting. Yeah, that's a lot. I just feel like if this season was going to be about a school shooting then it shouldn't have been about the other two topics because it's almost like, "SURPRISE! WE FOOLED YOU! THE CRIME IS THE SHOOTING! GOTCHA! MADE YA LOOK!" Because while you could say, this all lead to this ... that's still a lot to digest. 

[possibilities]

I think Anne is becoming willing to work with Sebastian because she's realized no one else is going to be on her side. Whether he's a good ally to have or not, I don't know. He might be liek that other parent who came to her in confidence, or he might be someone with mixed motives or bad judgment-- we don't know (or I don't). I want him to be a good guy all the way through, but this show is rarely that straightforward, so we'll see. It is unfathomable that everything will be wrapped up in two episodes, so there's probably going to be a lot left unresolved. Maybe the show just decided to raise questions, not provide answers. That's gutsy in a world where people want to "have closure" and I'm personally frustrated about it, but at the same time I think it can be very useful to just get people thinking, without giving us an answer.

 

I thought I would hate the "real life testimonials" but I wound up liking them a lot. I thought they actually provided a balancing perspective. The show is depressing and traumatic. But the real people were so strong and loving, and that gave me hope. 

 

Who would have predicted that Becca and Terri would react by softening and finding a little bit of conscience? Not me.

 

Anne is being villified by everyone (on the show) but until tonight she's been the only one who has consistently tried to play by the rules, negotiate rather than suppress, and who isn't motivated by defensiveness and revenge. It's amazing, really. Except for Coach's wife, who suggested a few episodes ago that someone should investigate what really happened to Taylor, and who tonight did not think her husband turning into Leslie/Kevin's Parents, was a good idea-- Anne has been the one who has done what "you're supposed to do"-- while all the "pillars of the community" have tried to avoid it and just use their privilege to get their way.

 

I hope Coach's wife, Anne, and maybe Sebastian (if he's truly a good guy-- and sometimes people are good, and will go out of their way for a good cause) will somehow work together. And maybe Eric's dad, who often has not known what to do but has tried and mostly succeeded in not doing anything too terrible, unless I am forgetting. And Grace... I wonder if she might be able to help in some way-- she probably has access to a lot of info. If she were offered an opportunity to help, I bet she'd step up, even if she's not a rabble rousing leader type.

[Brian Cronin]

The show continues to do a wonderful job balancing people believing themselves to be the heroes of their own stories. Timothy Hutton, in particular, is doing yeoman's work as a guy who gives these inspirational speeches, but speeches filled with oh so much empty sentiment behind them. Michael feels "vindicated" by Taylor's actions. Eric's mom thinks she's saving her younger song. Sebastian is a creepy dude with anger issues who, nonetheless, might be putting his anger issues to "good" use. It's all so well balanced, with people just not willing to look past their personal biases, like the principal of the other school who truly doesn't understand what the problem was with calling the Hispanic kids "thugs." 

 

This show being this show, I suspect we won't get a single "happy" ending to any of this, with pretty much everyone losing their respective jobs (Principal Dixon, Dr. Graham, Coach Dan) and Taylor behind bars (I wouldn't put it past Kevin, by the way, to try to get in front of whatever Eric might have on HIM by suddenly being willing to tell the cops that he thinks Eric DID rape Taylor). But if it is as well done as all the episodes have been so far, I can more than live with that. This show is excellent.

 

Although....holy shit, does the actress playing Becca stand out like a sore thumb. Britney on Glee was less blank in her facial expressions than this actress, and Britney on Glee was A. not hired as an actress initially but as a dancer who kept getting more and more lines and B. made fun of on the show on how blank she was. 

[tom87]

 

 

I thought it was interesting how his father brought up the fact that Eric likes to feel sorry for himself, but doesn't want to take any responsibility for what he's done wrong. Like, he blamed Kevin for sending the team after Taylor, saying that they forced him into making that call, but doesn't acknowledge that he could have stood up to those guys and said no.

 

 

Eric could have called Taylor back and tell him not to go to the park and not have to stand up to anyone.

 

 

If I were Taylor's mother, I would be very suspicious of the guy with the little girls.  She needs the dirt for the court case, not to flame the school.

 

The last thing the lawyer said was she needed to have people see Taylor in a different light. If they get dirt on Leyland maybe people will see how Taylor was treated  and helping him get more sympathy.

Edited February 25, 2016 by tom87

[TobinAlbers]

I see now how the public school story is paralling the Leyland story in that the 'perp' and the 'victim' is all about perspective of those in power.

The principle saw 3 kids beat up one kid so he punished the 3 kids caught in the act. He didn't consider the events leading up to that so for him the black kid is the victim while the other three were the aggressors.

But the black kid prior to this was observed by the 3 boys to be harassing a female student repeatedly. So they took what they felt was appropriate action to punish and prevent him from approaching her again. She's the victim and the black kid was the aggressor. But the principle didn't see this so 'it doesn't count'.

Taylor was the victim of two attacks but there are no witnesses to either act (unless Eric or the other boys fess up). In the second attack, Wes and his boys believed themselves to be the victims and Taylor needing to be taken down. In the case of Leyland, their principle sided with the 'pack' regarding the events at the party rather than the lone Taylor. It's only when Taylor takes retaliatory action (like the boys at the public school did) that he gets noticed and punished for his actions. He's now the perp not the victim and Wes (like the black kid at the public school) is viewed by the people in power as a victim when the actions taken against them are a bit more complicated than that.

I didn't think Eric's dad was hinting at anything sordid. I took his 'if you want something else' as 'if you want help, if you want to live, if you want to stop going down in this deep dark hole, then I'm here. I AM here.'

Coach circling the wagons to protect his daughter was obviously coming. This is another theme of the show - what is the right thing when it comes to protecting our kids? Lying, intimidation, covering their sins up to prevent their lawful punishment or making them face authorities and standing by them as in the case of Anne?

What's interesting is that Coach and his wife know for a fact what their kid did and are covering it up; Kevin's parents think he's innocent and went as far as public harassment and intimidation of Anne; Eric's parents are powerless and ineffectual; Anne thus far has gone the legal and acceptable public route (the newspaper article) to try to get justice for Taylor. We're now at will she too cross the line to save her son as they're now with their backs against the wall fighting for his life. Is she justified if she gives in and Sebastian's cyber justice reaps even more tragic results?

[elzin]

I really, really didn't like the real people segments. Not that they weren't important and powerful, but they did not fit. Had they done this from the beginning of the show, I don't know that I would have minded. Wally Lamb wrote a novel about two Columbine survivors and used a lot of real info and data, but it was incorporated seamlessly into the story, and was there from the start. Next week I suspect they won't be there again so it's just a one-off thing that sticks out really badly to me. Fiction and non-fiction and mix together, but throwing it in for just one episode was clunky. I can't remember if the couples in When Harry Met Sally were real or not, but that was another example of that kind of thing working.

[Neurochick]

It's all so well balanced, with people just not willing to look past their personal biases, like the principal of the other school who truly doesn't understand what the problem was with calling the Hispanic kids "thugs."

 

 

You are correct there, but what the Marshall school principal saw were two boys beating up one boy, which is thuggish behavior IMO, the Hispanic students also didn't look past their own biases either.

 

But in real life, I think that's what happens.  It's like, "I want to protect MY child, MY community, MY city, MY family, MY country."  Kevin's parents seem awful, but what parent wouldn't do whatever for their child.  Anne wants to get her son out of jail, even though he killed somebody.  Did Taylor say that Wes was one of the boys who beat him up?  Did Taylor tell anybody about his assault?  I say that because maybe if Taylor told someone he was assaulted, self defense could be a defense.  But since he didn't report the assault, it's harder to prove self defense, I believe.  

 

I think this show throws several "isms" and then says, "which one is worse?"  Racism is real, but so is classism.  Kevin's parents know that their son will have to racism, no matter how much money they have, but Taylor is a victim of classism, which is very real, especially today when it's so hard to move from lower to middle class.  Both Eric and Taylor are victims of homophobia, which is also very, very real.

 

I mean there are all these isms and things that are slamming against each other and all of them are harmful.

 

I wonder what happened to Sebastian.  It takes a lot for a man to take his two daughters out of school to do revenge on a school that seemingly he has no connection to.  

 

But the black kid prior to this was observed by the 3 boys to be harassing a female student repeatedly. So they took what they felt was appropriate action to punish and prevent him from approaching her again. She's the victim and the black kid was the aggressor. But the principle didn't see this so 'it doesn't count'.

 

 

But I didn't see that as true.  The black kid was verbally harassing her, correct?  So those other boys took it to the next level, why?  Because they felt that she was being discriminated against.  I mean the issue here is, how far is someone allowed to go to do what they feel is protecting someone?  If someone's being verbally harassed, do other people have the right to take it physical?  Perhaps what the Marshall principal should have done was have all three boys in his office and asked them what happened.  Also another issue is that the black principal doesn't believe that Hispanics have really dealt with racism the same way black people have.  In the first episode he said something like, "where are the dogs, where are the hoses?"  I mean, if you watch a movie like Selma, it's easy to look at that and say now THAT'S racism and discrimination.  But there are other forms of it as well.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Neurochick

[PQuinn]

If the Sebastian plan backfires I'm going to pull a Lillah Tanner and sell everything I own and head off to live a nomadic life on the tundra, because I will not be able to deal.

 

I just want something to work in Anne's favour.

[TobinAlbers]

 

The black kid was verbally harassing her, correct?  So those other boys took it to the next level, why?  Because they felt that she was being discriminated against.  I mean the issue here is, how far is someone allowed to go to do what they feel is protecting someone?  If someone's being verbally harassed, do other people have the right to take it physical?  Perhaps what the Marshall principal should have done was have all three boys in his office and asked them what happened.

 

Well, again, matter of perspective. We saw one instance where she was flirting back with the same black kid and the Hispanic boys weren't having it. In that instance, the principal saw the two boys beefing and broke it up with a directive to the girl to 'be mindful'.

 

Later we saw the same girl and boy together only this time the black kid was flirting and she wasn't having it (at this time she's reeling about having been brought into Taylor's issues with the police so she's not in a flirting mood). Again the Hispanic kids were watching. The black teen stepped it up a level to the point that she loudly said leave me alone and walked away and the kid followed (I think he may have blocked her path or was seriously violating her personal space). And again, No, means no in any instance, right? She tried to end the interaction and the boy didn't take no for an answer. Even if it was harmless flirting she was still being harassed. At which point the Hispanic kids again intervened and the fuse was lit for the fight later on.

 

No, violence isn't the answer, but often we do ask why other men don't take a stand when they see women being mistreated. In those boys' minds, the girl was being harassed by a guy who they already knew the principal sided with due to an earlier incident. They didn't trust their authority figure to see it suitably addressed so they addressed it themselves.

 

They may not have even intended to beat on him. Remember we -like the principal- only saw the middle and end of the fight but not the beginning. The trio of boys could've verbally confronted the black teen to leave the girl alone, the black teen told them where to go, the trio repeated their demand and probably physically encroached on the black kid, the black kid swung out to defend himself and then the fight was on. We, like the principal, came in on the trio beating on the black teen but we don't know what happened prior to that. The principal punished the kid who was caught in the act doing the beatdown (as I agree, he should've been suspended since, no, you don't solve problems with your fists) but his bias kicked in and rather than get the full story, he justified his punishment with the zero tolerance rule rather than get the full picture. ALL the kids should've been brought into his office-including the girl- to get a clearer picture of how this all started and the appropriate punishments doled out to everyone.

Edited February 25, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[Neurochick]

They may not have even intended to beat on him. Remember we -like the principal- only saw the middle and end of the fight but not the beginning. The trio of boys could've verbally confronted the black teen to leave the girl alone, the black teen told them where to go, the trio repeated their demand and probably physically encroached on the black kid, the black kid swung out to defend himself and then the fight was on. We, like the principal, came in on the trio beating on the black teen but we don't know what happened prior to that. The principal punished the kid who was caught in the act doing the beatdown (as I agree, he should've been suspended since, no, you don't solve problems with your fists) but his bias kicked in and rather than get the full story, he justified his punishment with the zero tolerance rule rather than get the full picture. ALL the kids should've been brought into his office-including the girl- to get a clearer picture of how this all started and the appropriate punishments doled out to everyone.

 

 

The problem is what the principal saw and not what we know.  We, the audience saw more than the principal.  He saw two boys beating up another boy and he reacted.  What should have happened was, everybody in his office to find out what's going on.  But, what if it was the black kid getting bullied, should he have been punished as well?  I mean that's kind of what happened to Taylor, he was the victim and because of the pictures, he was punished.

[Woebegone]

Definitely the collective avoiding of responsibility and the search for a scapegoat was a major theme of this episode. Both Kevin and Leslie had a hand in wheat happened, but their accusers probably should have looked at their own involvement as well.

I think the scene with Eric and his dad was awkwardly written and edited, which is why there is so much confusion over what it was about. I read an interview with Joey Pollari where he said that he thinks that Eric is just looking for love, and at the time I thought it was about romantic love but now I think I was being too narrow minded. I think what happens to a lot of closeted gay kids is an inability to accept the love people show them because they believe it's based on a lie; that if their family and friends knew who they really were, they would feel differently. And we saw that with Eric's mom and brother, like they literally ran away from him. So when his dad told him, hey, I know who you are and I'm still here -- I think that was what he was looking for this whole time.

[TobinAlbers]

 

What should have happened was, everybody in his office to find out what's going on.  But, what if it was the black kid getting bullied, should he have been punished as well?

 

Yep, that's what I said :)  ALL the kids - black teen, Hispanic trio, and the girl- should've been brought to the principal's office so he could get all the facts about what happened and so that ALL of those who acted inappropriately in the chain of events could be properly punished.

Edited February 25, 2016 by TobinAlbers

[sjohnson]

^^^Like Leslie, the principal wasn't interested in what happened. In some school districts, the policy is to suspend all parties in a fight precisely because the backstory is usually so complicated. Unsurprisingly even this isn't very fair when someone plans and executes a sneak attack. But no single policy will ever solve all problems. 

 

TobinAlbers I think it's clear Kevin's parents know that he arranged booze, other drugs and sex for a party, but don't think he should suffer any consequences for that. I think the Dad was worried that Kevin did something gay like raping Taylor but has no problem with him "making the team" if it's with a female. I think the dad suborned a cop into breaking Anne's privacy because they didn't want any hint of wrongdoing to be public. But no, I don't think there's any issue of Kevin's innocence for them.

 

The only significant plot development is the plan to try Taylor as an adult. The only realistic outcome from that is a plea deal that leaves the crazy shooter narrative in place. Where we are in the plot is that Taylor killed someone who had just assaulted him for the third time (yes, grabbing someone and screaming "I'll kill you!" is an assault, especially in context of a previous rape and a previous beating.) There's no realistic way that's going to be followed up. The cops deliberately trashed the rape investigation by selectively leaking derogatory information on the victim, while equally derogatory information on Kevin wasn't publicized. There's no way they're going to take the fall for what they did, which means Taylor must be portrayed simply as evil. Or possessed. Or crazy. (In this country, many people don't distinguish.)

 

The shooting completely derails the rape plot. I think that removes a lot of the discomfort. Which I think now probably explains why the likes of Sepinwall have suddenly discovered this season of American Crime is serious drama.

 

The coach is a blob of nothing. He floats around in a sea of vanity about how he loves his kids and he's changing their lives in a way no mere parents or peers can. He's in a rage because Leslie couldn't solve the problem for him. But he doesn't even know what he wants. In one sense Leslie started the nightmare because she tried to cover up the events, in favor of the team. In other words, she stuck with "his" kids just as he wanted. Coach doesn't actually think (I'm not sure he's genuinely capable of original thought,) but about the only thing more he could have wanted was not just running the kid out of the school as she did by an egregiously unfair suspension, but to have taken out a hit on the kid.

[Neurochick]

Where we are in the plot is that Taylor killed someone who had just assaulted him for the third time (yes, grabbing someone and screaming "I'll kill you!" is an assault, especially in context of a previous rape and a previous beating.)

 

 

That's correct but did Taylor ever tell anybody that he was assaulted the second time?  That's what makes self-defense difficult.

 

 I was once on a grand jury for an assault case, but then the perpetrator stood in front of the jury and said the victim assaulted him like three minutes before he stabbed the victim.  So the ADA had to go to the hospital and get the records where, in fact yes, the perpetrator did get assaulted first, (hit with a baseball bat) and that changed everything.  The jury didn't indict because of the special circumstances of self defense.  

 

Taylor could say that he feared for his life, but it might not work since he was right in front of the school, with other people around and it was possible to get away from Wes.  Also if he never told the police or anybody that the team assaulted him, it's his word against theirs.  

 

The sad thing about Taylor is the class-ism that really sunk him.  If he was from a wealthy family, he probably would not have been initially suspended because of the pictures; it would have been hushed up or Leslie would recommend counseling or something. 

[izabella]

Taylor could say that he feared for his life, but it might not work since he was right in front of the school, with other people around and it was possible to get away from Wes.  Also if he never told the police or anybody that the team assaulted him, it's his word against theirs.

 

It wouldn't be his word against theirs if Eric stepped up and told the truth about the beating and his part in luring Taylor to meet his attackers.  But that will never happen.

[Bobcatkitten]

The interviews had powerful moments but definitely didn't belong. The story is enough. I felt like I was being lectured to.

 

I'm still frustrated that we don't know what happened at the party!!! It's like they just moved on to all these other things without ever telling us who drugged Taylor, what exactly did they do to him etc. 

[Woebegone]

I'm still frustrated that we don't know what happened at the party!!! It's like they just moved on to all these other things without ever telling us who drugged Taylor, what exactly did they do to him etc.

Yeah, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. My current guess is that Kevin gave Taylor a drugged drink, Eric had sex with Taylor not knowing he was not fully in control of himself, and Taylor after the party thinking that Eric was working with Kevin in drugging him. This explains why Taylor blames both Eric and Kevin (but Eric more) and why Eric thinks Taylor wanted it but changed his mind after the fact.

I don't think Eric will go to the police about the beat down because he knows that he is technically an accessory, but even if he did, I don't think he will be charged. From the police perspective, the obvious charge against the attackers is a hate crime, but including Eric as one of the accused complicates any narrative the prosecution might try because he is gay himself. They're more likely to support his contention that he was coerced through intimidation and put him on the stand as a witness.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Woebegone

[WhosThatGirl]

The real life stories were powerful but yeah it was a little bit of breaking from the show.

I don think we will ever know what happened at the party and I think that's the point. I think we are getting a cohesive story though even if is a bit rushed. But it's a mini series so it's going to feel that way. But to me the story makes sense, bow we are getting from point A to the next point.

[WInterfalls]

I thought I was going to be ok but then at the end that one teacher said she looked at her son and thought "are you Dylan and I don't know it?" The dam just completely burst for me there.

This show is just so well done and so well acted that I can't stop watching. At the same time though it's just completely and utterly soul crushing. You can see how one act has affected so many people and so many events.

I agree that it's frustrating that we still don't really know what happened at the party but I also believe that's the way life is. You hear different versions of what happened and never really know for certain where the truth lies.

[PQuinn]

"I don think we will ever know what happened at the party and I think that's the point"

 

I agree; I've come back to the theory that we won't know exactly what happened that night.

 

Edited to agree with Winterfalls. I feel the same way as I felt about the last episodes of Breaking Bad -- I just wanted them to be over; it was too stressful dealing week over week.

 

As much as I respect this show, I am looking forward to it being done.

Edited February 25, 2016 by PQuinn

[BananaRama]

If you mean that is sounded like the mother's accusations about him might be right, no, I didn't get that vibe. Especially when Eric looked up with his eyes filled with tears and his face said to me, oh maybe he doesn't hate me, maybe my dad doesn't hate me. 

 

I thought the father went from not being able to look Eric in the face an episode or two ago when Eric wanted to talk to him about being gay, to finally trying to come to terms with all that has/is happening and trying to connect with him. Because his ex-wife and other son have disappeared and his son Eric is all he has left. He's there and he needs him, so I thought he was trying to improve on his fathering skills, that's all. 

 

He definitely does not comes off as ignorant as his ex-wife that's for sure.

 

I think Eric seeing that his father does care, unlike his mother and brother who have scorned him and taken off, gave him some strength to tell Kevin about his sorry ass.

I agree.

[iMonrey]

First we get the spoken word segment then the dance recital and now the real life testimonials. Look - I get it, they're trying to do something original here and I give them points for creativity. But it isn't working for me. A lot of the time I feel the show is drowning in its own self-importance. There's a really compelling story here and they don't need the window dressing.

 

 

Also this season went from rape to gay bashing to a school shooting. Yeah, that's a lot. I just feel like if this season was going to be about a school shooting then it shouldn't have been about the other two topics because it's almost like, "SURPRISE! WE FOOLED YOU! THE CRIME IS THE SHOOTING! GOTCHA! MADE YA LOOK!" Because while you could say, this all lead to this ... that's still a lot to digest.

 

Yeah - we've only got two episodes left, and more and more I fear I'm going to be left hanging after this is all over. They may have bitten off more than they could chew.

[marceline]

I didn't find anything odd about a father saying he would be there for his son; that is what is supposed to happen. Sadly, there are parents like Eric's mom who try to prevent a parent from bonding with their child thru accusations. I'm really confused about Sebastian. He lives in Milwaukee, but packs up his daughters and goes to Indianapolis because he thinks he can dig up dirt on the school? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

That actually made a lot of sense to me. Sometimes you see something on the news where you just can't sit back and do nothing anymore. I don't want to derail this thread with my personal politics but Sebastian reminded me of how I felt during the stuff in Ferguson. I was all set to take some vacation days get in my car and just drive there. Only my mother's panic at my suggestion that I might do that talked me down. That aside, I'll be interested if Sebastian becomes the representation of Anonymous on this show. Computer vigilantism is definitely on the rise and we've seen how many times it backfires, especially from Anonymous. It could be an interesting angle.

 

Connor Jessup has truly been a revelation to me. I remember him on Falling Skies but that show annoyed me so much I've all but blocked it out. I loved his visitation scene with Anne. I loved the way he couldn't look her in the face for more than a second or two and how his eyes kept darting to the wall, the ceiling, anywhere but his mother's face even as Anne couldn't look away from him.

 

The interviews had powerful moments but definitely didn't belong. The story is enough. I felt like I was being lectured to.

 

My issue with it was the whiplash. We were given two immensely compelling narratives and every time I settled into one, I got slapped back to the other.

Edited February 25, 2016 by marceline

[HunterHunted]

That's correct but did Taylor ever tell anybody that he was assaulted the second time?  That's what makes self-defense difficult.

 

 I was once on a grand jury for an assault case, but then the perpetrator stood in front of the jury and said the victim assaulted him like three minutes before he stabbed the victim.  So the ADA had to go to the hospital and get the records where, in fact yes, the perpetrator did get assaulted first, (hit with a baseball bat) and that changed everything.  The jury didn't indict because of the special circumstances of self defense.  

 

Taylor could say that he feared for his life, but it might not work since he was right in front of the school, with other people around and it was possible to get away from Wes.  Also if he never told the police or anybody that the team assaulted him, it's his word against theirs.  

 

The sad thing about Taylor is the class-ism that really sunk him.  If he was from a wealthy family, he probably would not have been initially suspended because of the pictures; it would have been hushed up or Leslie would recommend counseling or something.

Taylor has a pretty decent diminished capacity defense if he would open up and talk, but he's too traumatized to do so. He was drugged and raped, he and his mother have been harassed online, and he was physically assaulted because he spoke out. It's obvious. Even if Taylor never told the police about the assault, there is the call from Eric, the guys from the team and Taylor's cellphones likely pinged the cell tower closest to the rec center, and Taylor's boyfriend's testimony about Taylor's appearance post assault. It would take some work by his defense attorney, but there is evidence out there. Unfortunately, Taylor probably has a PD who has an enormous caseload and no bandwidth to investigate and dig if Taylor isn't actively involved in his own defense.

[eteffi]

Just want to throw out there that a lot of the info about bullying at Columbine was overblown in early reports. Harris and Klebold were not bullied in the same way that Taylor was, certainly, and Harris, at least, was a straight-up psychopath, so I'm not loving the parallels being drawn here (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm). Bullying is certainly a problem for other reasons, but I am not sure why this show is pushing the bullying --> school shootings line, when that's not really borne out by evidence. (https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/bullying_school_shootings_1.1.pdf)

[jmiddleton0912]

The real life stories kind of caught me off guard, but I appreciated the realness it brought to the episode. I have to wonder though, did some of the players on the team know Taylor liked guys? In one of the episodes it seemed like some of the guys were more angry at him talking about what happened than being surprised and shocked that someone would accuse one of them of rape.

[sjohnson]

It's not immediately obvious that a kid's journals invariably reveal the objective truth, rather than containing fantasies. 

Nor is it immediately obvious that psychopathy is a solidly established psychiatric condition, much less one than can be correctly diagnosed in juveniles. 

 

But I've always found it advisable to read carefully and analyze critically anyone purporting to reveal the real story hidden after a long time. The "real story" so often tends to confirm the teller's agenda. By the way, not too long ago I ran across a fresh reference to Harris and Klebold targeting Christians. 

[stagmania]

Also this season went from rape to gay bashing to a school shooting. Yeah, that's a lot. I just feel like if this season was going to be about a school shooting then it shouldn't have been about the other two topics because it's almost like, "SURPRISE! WE FOOLED YOU! THE CRIME IS THE SHOOTING! GOTCHA! MADE YA LOOK!" Because while you could say, this all lead to this ... that's still a lot to digest. 

 

I got the impression that this was exactly the point-all along, we were seeing the complex series of events that can result in a traumatic incident like a school shooting, we just didn't realize that was the narrative we were in. I understand why some find that jarring or unfair from a storytelling perspective, but I see why they did it this way, and I think it's a powerful way to frame the story. 

[marceline]

Just want to throw out there that a lot of the info about bullying at Columbine was overblown in early reports. Harris and Klebold were not bullied in the same way that Taylor was, certainly, and Harris, at least, was a straight-up psychopath, so I'm not loving the parallels being drawn here (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm). Bullying is certainly a problem for other reasons, but I am not sure why this show is pushing the bullying --> school shootings line, when that's not really borne out by evidence. (https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/bullying_school_shootings_1.1.pdf)

 

Yeah, Sue Klebold's press tour has made me go back and look at some of the original reporting around that. There was so much hysteria about the bullying and the "trench coat mafia" stuff that, as time went on, seems to have not been accurate. It's kind of eerie the way her book and this show have dovetailed together. One thing I found notable about the testimonials is that the teachers only mentioned Klebold. I haven't seen anybody in any of these discussions talk about Harris with anything approaching affection or concern.

 

Ugh. There's not enough money in the world that would make me want to be a teacher these days. They are literally on the front lines.

Edited February 25, 2016 by marceline

[possibilities]

Taylor's boyfriend knew about the beating and was urging Taylor to get medical help. Becca also knows Taylor said he wanted drugs because he was messed up-- and she saw at least the condition of his face, which showed visible damage. And if the authorities examined Taylor after his arrest, they would find the bruises and possibly a head injury. This might help Taylor in documenting his injuries from the group assault, especially in combination with testimony from Eric or someone else, about the group beating him. Who knows? Terri had a tiny tingle of conscience, so maybe one of the others will come forward. But yes, all this depends heavily on Taylor having a motivated, competent, and not-overworked defense team, as well as the testimony of others who can't necessarily be counted on to co-operate.

 

I agree that there have been a large number of contributing factors in what happened, but I also think the show has shown that just like all those factors contributed, it's also true that small acts did or could have made a huge difference in a good way. Grace's kindness was a small thing that had a huge impact. While the show is an avalanche of depressing failures, it also gives us the idea that a small action could have huge positive ripples and totally turn things around even in the face of an avalanche of negative actions, rigged systems, bad faith, and relentless failures. For multiple points of failure to potentially be overcome by multiple or even few relatively smaller acts, is a really powerful message and is somehow more hopeful to me than implying that the only way to have an impact is to be dramatically heroic, or to wage a massive effort for systemic change. Imagine if Grace had spoken to Taylor sooner, or if even one kid at school had befriended him and spoken up when he was suspended, or if his boyfriend had not laughed at Taylor calling what happened at the party a rape, or if Eric had had a friend after his suicide attempt and they had called the cops or refused to make the call initiating the second assault, or if Becca had just sat with Taylor after giving him the oxy. Or if when Taylor talked to the guy who made homophobic remarks when they went to games together, the response he had gotten had been stronger, and the guy had really shown a passionate regret and started spending time with Taylor again, in a better way, to make amends.

 

Or, if Leslie had treated the distribution of the photos as a crime and investigated who posted them, instead of suspending the Taylor and looking to make Eric an example just because he wasn't from a major donor family. She could have spun it in the school's favor by having Leyland treat drug use as a health problem and bullying as harmful to the community, rather than treating drugs as a rule violation and bullies as representatives and leaders to be protected at all costs. She could have made Leyland a model community that people would look to as an example rather than one that is ruthless and creates enemies. She had the power to do that but it was a choice she made for denial and machiavellian machinations rather than actually pursuing an educational mission. It's especially remarkable to me that she chose that approach when Leyland has so many resources. For them to not be doing any better than the school that has no money-- it shows that it's not just about resources, it's about attitude, and to me that's hopeful because it is often impossible to come up with money, but anyone can choose to be kind or to use what resources they have for a positive purpose rather than for evil... like Grace did.... and small accessible shifts made by anyone at any point could contribute significantly and turn around a situation that looks hopeless.

[FanOfTheFans]

The show continues to do a wonderful job balancing people believing themselves to be the heroes of their own stories. Timothy Hutton, in particular, is doing yeoman's work as a guy who gives these inspirational speeches, but speeches filled with oh so much empty sentiment behind them. Michael feels "vindicated" by Taylor's actions. Eric's mom thinks she's saving her younger song. Sebastian is a creepy dude with anger issues who, nonetheless, might be putting his anger issues to "good" use. It's all so well balanced, with people just not willing to look past their personal biases, like the principal of the other school who truly doesn't understand what the problem was with calling the Hispanic kids "thugs." 

 

This show being this show, I suspect we won't get a single "happy" ending to any of this, with pretty much everyone losing their respective jobs (Principal Dixon, Dr. Graham, Coach Dan) and Taylor behind bars (I wouldn't put it past Kevin, by the way, to try to get in front of whatever Eric might have on HIM by suddenly being willing to tell the cops that he thinks Eric DID rape Taylor). But if it is as well done as all the episodes have been so far, I can more than live with that. This show is excellent.

 

Although....holy shit, does the actress playing Becca stand out like a sore thumb. Britney on Glee was less blank in her facial expressions than this actress, and Britney on Glee was A. not hired as an actress initially but as a dancer who kept getting more and more lines and B. made fun of on the show on how blank she was.

I really like the point you make regarding people's inability to see the other side of the coin. A lot of self-serving characters who have dug their heels in and plowed straight ahead, damn the consequences. It speaks volumes about the society we live in today. Then you add social media to the mix and it becomes even more muddled.

In many ways I feel like our country is more divided today than it has ever been.

I thought the scene with Becca where she was watching students grieve Wes's death was telling. I felt like she was viewing them as an outsider. An outsider having difficulty experiencing empathy for a dead classmate. Is she a sociopath? She did rat herself out so I'm not sure but that thought has crossed my mind.