Season Three Talk

[Snarklepuss]

He seemed a bit detached, didn't he, bored with the whole thing.  Maybe his attitude about his ancestors had something to do with his unsupportive father.

 

I took it as Gehry being reserved, as Attica said.  But also I wondered if his seeing himself as more of a "citizen of the world" as Gates put it means he's kind of grown beyond seeing himself as a Jew.  Which I don't really get unless he is not religious and in some way doesn't want to identify himself as a Jew.  I figure you can appreciate being Jewish AND a citizen of the world, not feel like you have to grow "beyond" the former to be the latter.

[Enigma X]

My couch-potato take on Gehry is that when he was younger he felt as if having a Jewish name would hold him back. So he decided to "pass." Now that he is older and participating in this series has forced him to look at that decision head on and in public, he feels a bit embarrassed and uneasy but still not ready to commit to it being a good or bad choice. (Yes, I read a lot into his facial gestures and tones and could be way off base.)

[Blergh]

Interesting that Richard Branson found out not only had his paternal-paternal great-grandfather been born in Australia which he'd had no inkling of but also one of his great-great-grandmothers had been born in India- apparently to an unknown  East Indian woman [due to the 'South Asian' DNA showing up]. Oddly, what went uncommented on re the double-great grandmother's birth registry was that she was referred to as the' natural daughter of the late. . . 'Yes, calling someone a 'natural' child was the polite term for a nonmarital but acknowledged child so I'm wondering if it may be that the her unmentioned paternal grandparent/s may have been so devastated at losing their (only?) child that they were willing to raise his posthumous  offspring as their own despite her being  nonmarital and biracial. Of course, WHY her unknown East Indian mother agreed to let them do so, whether the unknown East Indian mother may have given the girl an Indian name and whether she had ANY further interaction with her child thereafter [i.e. being an ayah to her own child somewhat like Moses's mother was to him whilst he was raised by the Pharaoh's Daughter]  and if the great-great grandmother (as well as her eventual husband)  had any knowledge about her actual origins would be interesting to find out.  It's not unheard  for folks of the British Raj to have  hidden Indian DNA as in the cases of Merle Oberon and Anna Leonowens [whose writings eventually would become the basis of the "King and I"].

 

   Also, interesting that Miss Linn had had no inkling about her great-grandmother's independent, autonomous path after her husband's early death much less any idea about the origins of her surname. Too bad they made a big deal about her matrilineal DNA being NOT Han Chinese but not saying what it actual was (Tibetan perhaps?).

Edited February 5, 2016 by Blergh

[Snarklepuss]

My couch-potato take on Gehry is that when he was younger he felt as if having a Jewish name would hold him back. So he decided to "pass." Now that he is older and participating in this series has forced him to look at that decision head on and in public, he feels a bit embarrassed and uneasy but still not ready to commit to it being a good or bad choice. (Yes, I read a lot into his facial gestures and tones and could be way off base.)

 

No, I actually think you're spot on given what I saw.  Perhaps he's taken a lot of guff from Jews about changing his name and knows that there are people in the audience who would judge him.  My own mother modified an Italian last name to a more "Anglo-Saxon" one back in the 1940s due to ethnic prejudice in her profession, so I fully understand why he felt he had to do this.  Things were very different back then and being an architect he may have felt it was the only way to succeed.  I know the Jewish side of my family owned their own business, which was one way Jews avoided anti-Semitism back in the early to mid 20th century as the entire family worked for the business.  Being an architect was a little different.  If I were Gehry I would have defended that angle more and not worried about what other people were going to think.

[riverblue22]

When I was researching a friend's family tree he told me his Russian Jewish ancestors had changed their name when they landed on Ellis Island at the recommendation of the immigration official.  As it turned out they didn't change their name until 20 years later according to the census records.  I think they felt the pressure to do it to succeed in American society.

[carrps]

I watched this episode twice -- once alone and once with my sister -- and I paid close attention to the DNA discussion during the Maya Lin segment, because I also was surprised Gates didn't elaborate. But what I heard was that she is Han Chinese, but a rare strain within the Han group. I don't know what that means, because I always thought Han was Han, but maybe that's all it is -- a subgroup that's rare, but still Han. I also remember all the controversy at the time of Vietnam memorial decision. It obviously still hurts. 

 

I also thought about Merle Oberon during Branson's segment. I watched The Scarlet Pimpernel when I was a kid and thought she was drop dead gorgeous. I didn't think she looked Indian, but when I heard she was half, I could totally see it.

Edited February 8, 2016 by carrps

[kassa]

When I was researching a friend's family tree he told me his Russian Jewish ancestors had changed their name when they landed on Ellis Island at the recommendation of the immigration official.

 

 

The "Ellis Island people changed our family name!" story is fairly universal and almost universally false.   Here's a good explanation of why

 

http://www.nypl.org/blog/2013/07/02/name-changes-ellis-island

 

In other news, Patricia Arquette says "cool!" a lot.  I felt for Professor Gates.

Edited February 10, 2016 by kassa

[Blergh]

I wonder why they detailed when Miss Arquette's direct paternal line and Miss Moore's [born Smith] mother's side immigrated to the US but none of the other sides (and nothing at all about when Senator McCain's ancestors arrived).

 

   Amongst the other ironies of this episode were that Senator McCain's double-great grandfather who was captured and died a POW did so while fighting to defeat if not overthrow the very nation Senator McCain fought for.

      Also, it should be noted that the Battle of Chapultepec that Miss Moore's ancestor participated was not against a hardened adult legion but against teenaged military cadets who were willing to sacrifice their all to defend their nation against what they considered an invading force(and a century later President Harry S Truman laid a wreath at a memorial to them for that very reason).  but I wonder if Dr. Gates may have decided to spin it otherwise to avoid hurting Miss Moore's feelings.

[Jadzia]

Amongst the other ironies of this episode were that Senator McCain's double-great grandfather who was captured and died a POW did so while fighting to defeat if not overthrow the very nation Senator McCain fought for.

 

When Gates was detailing how horrible the conditions were at the civil war POW camp, I actually laughed when McCain said "I can't imagine." Out of anyone in the world, I think McCain could imagine how horrible a POW camp could be.

 

I had to wonder if Gates was feigning ignorance at not knowing that Patricia Arquette had a transgender sister named Alexis. When he first told her the name, that was the first thing I thought of.

[biakbiak]

When Gates was detailing how horrible the conditions were at the civil war POW camp, I actually laughed when McCain said "I can't imagine." Out of anyone in the world, I think McCain could imagine how horrible a POW camp could be.

Pretty sure that was his intent a dark dry bit of humor .

[kassa]

As horrific a captivity as McCain suffered, I think Gates had just said that some of the prisoners had been chained in position for MONTHs without being able to move away from their spot to go to the bathroom, which was even worse than what he had gone through, and he was contemplating that it could have been worse for his ancestor.

[AuntiePam]

In other news, Patricia Arquette says "cool!" a lot.  I felt for Professor Gates.

 

And "That's wild."  In defense of all the guests though, it's hard to be original when responding to those revelations.  "That's amazing."  "I had no idea."  "I never knew."   Guests on Antiques Roadshow have the same problem.

 

I had forgotten that McCain had an opportunity to be released but chose to stay with his men.  Someone needs to tell Donald Trump what "hero" means. 

[attica]

Gates pronounced 'cavalry' as 'calvary' more than once. Common error, but it drives me bonkers.

[HelenBaby]

Both Sean Combs & L L Cool J had interesting family histories, but the L L story and what Gates & team were able to find out about his biological family blew me away. I'm glad for them and hope everything turns out okay.

[junemeatcleaver]

I was wondering why there was only two people profiled on the show last night when I initially read the description for the episode, and now I understand.  Puffy's family history was interesting, but this episode could have easily been all about LL and his family history.  This past episode was mind blowing and a testament to what can lurk inside anybody's family tree.

[charmed1]

I felt so badly for L's mom. When they showed the photo of Christy Lewis, I said out loud, "He looks like Joe Louis!" Funny he probably even knew Joe Louis personally. I was confused by the ending of the episode. Did she meet her birth mother? I'd like to hear her story. And speaking of L's mom, lady looks fantastic for 70 years old.

Edited February 17, 2016 by charmed1

[HelenBaby]

I felt so badly for L's mom. When they showed the photo of Christy Lewis, I said out loud, "He looks like Joe Louis!" Funny he probably even knew Joe Louis personally. I was confused by the ending of the episode. Did she meet her birth mother? I'd like to hear her story. And speaking of L's mom, lady looks fantastic for 70 years old.

Yeah, I think Gates said she was able to meet her birth mom, but those people they were meeting at the end were her half sister on her biological father's side, that lady's son and the first cousin whose DNA they initial linked them. The only thing I was wondering about is how the young boxer from Arizona met a girl from Virginia and how & why things happened.

[Ina123]

Everytime Combs put his fingers to his eyes as if crying, it looked fake to me. I don't know. Something was just off about him. Like he really didn't want to be there.

 

LL's story was a shocker. Imagine his mother finding that out so late in life. What an interesting family. I'm so glad her bio family was so accepting and willing to do the DNA testing.

[charmed1]

Yeah, I think Gates said she was able to meet her birth mom, but those people they were meeting at the end were her half sister on her biological father's side, that lady's son and the first cousin whose DNA they initial linked them. The only thing I was wondering about is how the young boxer from Arizona met a girl from Virginia and how & why things happened.

That's what I want to know. Did Christy Lewis even know he had another child? Was he married to the half sister's mother at the time? Did the bio mom have other children? What does her family tree look like? I'm sure L's mom has all these questions and more. And I wonder from whom she heard the whispers that she was not the biological child of one/both her parents. Ugh! I need another episode LL!

I liked what she said though. That at her age now, she's able to understand it. I'm glad she grew up in a home with loving parents who were able to provide for her. And L's cousin looks just like him!

[biakbiak]

Seeing Sean's family tree having several Smalls, I was shocked that it went unobserved.

[riverblue22]

 

The only thing I was wondering about is how the young boxer from Arizona met a girl from Virginia and how & why things happened.

 

I'm thinking that Christy Lewis made a living traveling across the country and being in fights in African American communities.  In that case he would be a visiting celebrity in the local community.  I have a feeling he never knew about this child that he fathered.

[zoey1996]

Re: LL and his mother.  I was born in the early 1950's and always knew from earliest childhood that I was adopted.  I cannot imagine first hearing at the age I am now.  Kudos to all who agreed to the testing and meeting when it turned out they were related.  An amazing story there!

[hjmugillecuty]

I agree riverblue22. I was trying to figure it out when all we knew was Arizona and Virginia, but as soon as they said he was a boxer and traveled, the light bulb went off. I also noticed that Christy's brother, John Henry Lewis, has a Wikipedia page that has been already updated with the LL Cool J information. I wish them the best in the relationship with the biological family. Unfortunately, that doesn't always turn out well.

[charmed1]

Seeing Sean's family tree having several Smalls, I was shocked that it went unobserved.

LOL that would've been awkward. "Sean you know your Jamaican-American friend who stole his stage name from a fictional gangster? Well turn the page." Puffy isn't "all in the videos" anymore, so I forgot about his perpetually open mouth. It was in full force this episode and now I see he's had it since childhood. He can't help it.

I wondered if his father's last name was really Coombs or if that was a typo by the newspaper.

[One Imaginary Girl]

I really liked that Sean contacted Finding Your Roots to have his genealogy done.  He really is a self-starter.  I wonder if any other guests have volunteered or if they all were recruited.  

[Lovecat]

Seeing Sean's family tree having several Smalls, I was shocked that it went unobserved.

Oh, I noticed!  And kind of chuckled.

[Vandy10]

Oh, I noticed!  And kind of chuckled.

Thirded. I kept waiting for it to be brought up!

[Blergh]

Despite not being a fan of either's music, I was pleasantly surprised by how intriguing both Mr. Coomb's and Mr. LL Cool J'[born Smith]'s genealogies. I think what happened with Mrs. Smith's case of finding out she was adopted late in adulthood wasn't that uncommon a few decades ago when many adoptees were only told of being adopted in adulthood if ever by their parents but it's interesting that it was a random donation linking Mrs. Smith to a half-sister set that ball in motion- and quite amazing that it turned out that Mrs. Smith's bio father had been a prominent boxer and that they've been united to a hithero unknown family. Let's hope things stay as pleasant as possible between these sides of the family.  I wonder how many adoptees will be able to find their actual DNA parentage via these databases?  Anyway, I thought this was very well done.

[bybrandy]

Many adoptees are using DNA as a tool to help find out information about their birth families and LL Cool J's example is a really good and slightly lucky example of how that works.   His mother's first cousin had also tested which is an incredibly close match.  That cousin was also amenable to sharing info which is not always a given.    They were able to convince other cousins to test (also not always a given and not always financially possible for people) but that is how it works.  Then they had the birth certificate number which provided the mother's maiden name.  That there is just some good old fashioned detective work but the paper trail is important in DNA research as well.   By having the mother's maiden name they were able to narrow down the search and make some calls.   So a bit of luck and a lot of persistence.   But it totally is possible. 

[Snarklepuss]

This episode was fantastic.  I don't know how I would react if I were contacted and told I was the long lost cousin of a famous person.  That would blow me away!  I came away really liking LL, not knowing much about him personally before this.  I wish him the best of luck with his newfound relatives.

[attica]

The new cousin proving she watches NCIS by telling LL what time it airs could have happened in my mom's house. So cute.

[kassa]

That was such a golden moment --  he seems like a nice guy who was genuinely happy to make these connections.  

 

I've always like the celeb/regular person DNA reunions.  I forget at this point which show is which, but they used to do more of that.  Some African American football player (forget his name, but it was one of the better historical episodes and the guy was nice)  and Spike Lee both met white relatives.  In Who Do You Think you Are, Lisa Kudrow had a lovely reunion with a surviving relative. And I think in one series Gates took people to their ancestral African villages (Blair Underwood?)

[Driad]

Here is a 46 minute discussion with CeCe Moore and two other genetic genealogists, mostly about the DNA testing for LL Cool J in this episode:  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=diNZSHvfASs

[QueBueno]

So excited that NPH is descended from William Farrar, as am I, so Neil and I are cousins. :)

[biakbiak]

A solid contrast to people crying over their ancient ancestors was NPH chuckling at his 12th great grandmother be burned at the stake.

[Arynm]

Love Cisneros and the new DNA test for Native Americans. I have a good percentage so I googled the name Carlos Bustamante to see if they will do mine as well to narrow down exactly what type of NA DNA I have. They have an email to give them your pertinent info and I hope they get back to me. I love how much the science is growing that they can actually figure out where the Native American DNA is from. I saw Mayan on hers for sure.

NPH had a great story with his ancestor being burned at the stake for witchcraft, it's kinda cool to have that kind of story in the history.

[peaceknit]

So excited that NPH is descended from William Farrar, as am I, so Neil and I are cousins. :)

 

Apparently, I'm also related to NPH through his grandmother, Cecily Jordan. 

[Monty9]

"A solid contrast to people crying over their ancient ancestors was NPH chuckling at his 12th great grandmother be burned at the stake. "

 

NPH: (something like): "That is so cooool"

Me: NO! No it is NOT cool! Being burned alive as a scapegoat for ignorance is most definitely not cool.

 

[kassa]

That horrified me, frankly.  I understand an awkward wry comment (I mean, it's been 500 years), but Cisneros had more sympathy for her grandfather having to shovel coal than he did for a woman burned alive.   I've always liked him before, but that really chilled me. Badly done, Neil, badly done. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by kassa

[Steff]

I thought it was hysterical because I could see one of my brothers having that same reaction.  To have that story (not the death necessarily) in your family tree IS awesome. IMO

[Judois]

My Mom and I were caught off guard at Neil's reaction,too. Bad form,dude. That's a horrific death.

[attica]

It's a horrific death, but it's a cool story. That's how I took NPH's reaction. It would have been my reaction, if I'm honest. Plus, I give him points for immediately beginning to suss out what might have been the real cause of the events, and understanding the misplaced blame. I know some people who would have reacted 'well, I bet she was super creepy and maybe had it coming..."

 

An all around nice change of pace that all three subjects had some awareness of the historical events in which their ancestors were caught up. I'm often disappointed when the historian names some battle or event and the subject is all "what's that?" (Yep, I'm looking at you, Chris O'Donnell.) (Different show, I know.) (Still.)

[Blergh]

Good point, attica re Mr. Harris, Ms. Steinem and Miss Cisneros actually having researched the times and places that shaped their ancestors' experiences before being told said ancestors existed.

    Interesting stories re Mr. Harris's Virginian ancestor not only surviving that attack but also managing to clear the young widow's rep and marry her himself!  Still, I agree that while I could see how a momentary unguarded laugh from the shock of learning one's ancestress's fate re being tried then convicted and burned as a witch wouldn't be unexpected , I still don't think just laughing at it as though he'd just witnessed his detention teacher getting a pie in the face was apt. I'm not even related and wouldn't have known her from Eve but I'm still revolted and appalled. Yes, I'm glad he understood that it almost certainly was a case of her trying to protect her own family's lifestock from her neighbors' diseased animals but even had her husband and surviving son somehow bought that she'd deserved the charges(and we don't know either way), life for them during and after her execution would have been very hard and scarring.

    As for Miss Cisneros. Interesting how she only was able to learn of her mother's side's slow migration through the States to Chicago via the census itself noting where each of her mother's sibs had been born but that no one in her mother's family had talked about having had a rootless life for so long.  Also, it seems that Dr. Gates didn't quite get that while Grandfather Cisneros went from being an aristocratic military cadet in Mexico to shoveling coal in his first attempt to live in the States, that didn't mean he wanted his family to think of him as less than an aristocrat even though he'd have had to do such backbreaking work to survive at one time of his life.  Nice touch that she was able to find out that she was specifically about 4 percent Mayan from this new test. I wonder if said test could also break down where in Asia, Africa or even Europe one's individual ancestor orginated?

 

   Interesting for Ms. Steinem to find out that her own barely remembered paternal grandmother had herself been a proto-feminist (as had her own tormented mother in college). Sad that Grandmother Steinem's brother didn't take the opportunity to flee NAZI Germany after being released but at least his own son made it to the US. I wonder if any of his descendants may try to contact Ms. Steinem. Also, interesting to find out that Ms. Steinem's maternal side actually descended from over two centuries of folks living in the US and not a recent immigrant unlike the other  branches.  Does anyone know if Ms. Steinem's older sister had any offspring or has the line ended with the two sisters?

[biakbiak]

Her sister had six kids.

[kassa]

Still, I agree that while I could see how a momentary unguarded laugh from the shock of learning one's ancestress's fate re being tried then convicted and burned as a witch wouldn't be unexpected , I still don't think just laughing at it as though he'd just witnessed his detention teacher getting a pie in the face was apt.

 

 

Gates even gave him an out, as I recall, a kind of warning shot to compose himself.  Something like "that was a horrible thing" or something... and he doubled down on how cool it was.  Just a very peculiar reaction.  

 

To be fair, I will confess my own judgement of Steinem's great uncle who was sent to then taken out of Dachau (?!), and STILL wouldn't leave the country.  Now, maybe there was more to it -- that his wife wasn't up to the trip and he wouldn't leave her, or something, and my attitude may have been influenced by that one photo of them over the story that showed them sitting at the tea table, making it look like they had better things to do than run for their lives.  

[Driad]

In the discussion of NPH's ancestor who was executed for witchcraft, NPH said twice that he likes magic.  "Magic" is tricks, sleight of hand, or now often special effects.  Many of the people (especially women) who were accused of witchcraft were healers, which probably made it easy for someone to say "She gave my child herbs that she said could help him, but he died, so she must have poisoned him."

[biakbiak]

He clearly knew that. He articulated the reason she was murdered, trying to stop disease spreading amongst the livestock. He just thought that as a magician (and if there is anyone who knows the truth about magic its a magician) it was ironic that his ancestor died because people thought she was "magic/other" the former he actively perused as hobby the later he thought people would label him because he is gay, and yet she was most likely just trying to save her animals which would save her family and was burned at the stake for her trouble. I had no problem with his reaction.

Edited February 28, 2016 by biakbiak

[kassa]

He could have expressed a scintilla of sympathy over even a total ancient stranger's terrifying and agonizing death. Burning to death merits at least a courtesy expression of compassion.

[magdalene]

I kind of lost all respect for NPH when he laughed at his ancestors brutal death and clearly found it "cool".  It turned me off big time.

[ShelleySue]

Maybe it was the mood I was in due to Super Tuesday, but I felt that last night's episode was more world history and less personal history than usual.  Did anyone else feel that way?

 

PS  Did anyone write down what Lidia said at the end?  I thought that it was beautiful and wish that I hadn't deleted the episode before copying it down.

Edited March 2, 2016 by ShelleySue